openSUSE Project May 2018

project@lists.opensuse.org

19 participants
25 discussions

[opensuse-project] Mailinglist changes going forward

by Simon Lees

Hello everyone, Firstly I am cross posting this across a number of mailinglists because this post affects several, but I would ask that you keep your replies / feedback on the openSUSE project list as not to fragment discussion. It has been raised with the board by several members of the community that some of our mailinglists have not been working as effectively as we would like. As such and as raised in our annual discussion with the community during the conference, the board has decided to take a couple of steps that we hope will resolve these issues or that will at least be a starting point in resolving these issues. Firstly we have created a new opensuse-support(a)o.o mailing list, we as the board felt that in the transition from factory -> tumbleweed in particular the change in role for opensuse(a)o.o did not work well and in many cases there was an attitude that factory/tumbleweed issues should still be posted on the factory mailing list. As such we have created the support mailing list to help clarify these changes in policy that we don't believe worked when we tried to change them last time. In short we would like you to use opensuse-support(a)o.o whenever you require support whether it is for Tumbleweed, Leap (regardless of whether you are using a Leap beta or not) or any other project under the openSUSE umbrella. This brings us to the next issue, posting bugs / bug reports on mailing lists rather then bugzilla. This is a practice we would like to see stopped and we will be gently reminding people if they continue posting bugs on mailinglists, this especially includes if a package / application breaks when updating tumbleweed / leap (including beta's). We would ask that you search for your issue prior to reporting but in case you accidentally report a duplicate bug its easy for us to mark it as such, also if you report something that is intentional and not a bug it doesn't take long to mark it as such, so if in doubt file a bug rather then posting to a mailing list, there is useful information for filing bugs at the following links [1][2]. But if you are really stuck with trying to file your bug the friendly people at opensuse-support(a)o.o can support you through the process. The board hopes that with the changes outlined above the contents of the opensuse-factory(a)o.o will go back to just being general distro development discussion so if your post to openSUSE factory is something other then that think twice about where the more appropriate place to post is. The new tumbleweed snapshots will continue to be posted to factory but we would ask you do not reply to them in order to report issues / bugs. If a bug is reported that a package maintainer believes will cause significant issues for most tumbleweed users ie not being able to boot / login or severe data loss we still invite the maintainer to post a warning to opensuse-factory but such issues happen very rarely and as such we don't expect to see many such posts. The board has decided that it would like to see how well these changes work before deciding to add / remove / change openSUSE's mailing lists further. Although we have discussed several other possibilities that we could also try in the future. 1. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Bug_reporting_FAQ 2. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Submitting_bug_reports -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

2 years, 9 months

[opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Mailinglist changes going forward

by Fraser_Bell

On 05/28/2018 09:39 AM, Neil Rickert wrote: > On 05/28/2018 09:50 AM, Anton Aylward wrote: > >> My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and >> misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may >> be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what >> *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may >> be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, >> what fringe/test-case brings it up. > > For users in this situation, my best advice would be to post to the > opensuse forums (forums.opensuse.org). Quite a few people do that > already. And theyare advised to open a bug report when that is > appropriate. Exactly. It is a great Forum, with great Volunteer Support, and is Moderated so that the garbage that floods these mail lists tends to be almost totally absent. -- -Gerry Makaro openSUSE Member openSUSE Forum Moderator openSUSE Contributor aka Fraser_Bell on the Forums, OBS, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org Fraser-Bell on Github -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

2 years, 9 months

[opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse] Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Mailinglist changes going forward

by Simon Lees

On 29/05/18 03:16, John Andersen wrote: > On 05/28/2018 08:28 AM, Anton Aylward wrote: >> What is left for the main list? Are you saying it should be a social group? > > As I've mentioned on another thread, the board would love to kill this list completely, > as well as all the others. The Board!!! Not the developers, not the users, but the board. > Well you could probably extrapolate that to at least some openSUSE Members as well, as they vote for the board and I personally and I believe others mentioned cleaning up some mailing lists as something we would like to see. So people appointed me to the board knowing I wanted to make changes to mailing lists. > Users are expected to join 20 mailing lists, and know exactly which of those they > dare post an issue upon, Its Not sufficient to know which department to file your > complaint with, you must also know the desk, and which in-basket to use. > The introduction of opensuse-support@ is meant to make it clear where all support issues can be emailed. > I admit I grow weary of long running wandering threads, as people devolve into discussing > the minutia of side issues, often leaving the original poster hanging in suspense. Also > annoying are the long copy-pastes of pointless console output that help nobody. > But I delete the threads and move on. > > Mostly what gets posted here are user-to-user questions. Nobody here is under the > slightest delusion that any developers participate here. Just other users that > may have seen a similar issue. > In the past when I first joined this list there was plenty of user-to-developer questions posted here, but over time many developers (including several on the board) got sick of the noise on this list and either unsubscribed or created mail filters to /dev/null The hope with the new opensuse-support mailing list is that we can keep it more ontopic and as such many of the developers that are willing to offer support but left this list as it was a waste of there time will return to the new list and offer support there. > Bug Reports? chuckle.... > The MAJORITY of Bug reports are closed two years later when that release falls > out of maintenance, or marked as a duplicate of another bug, which is eventually > marked as won't fix two years later. > When such bugs are closed it is made clear that you can reopen them against a newer version if the issue persists, this change is also more related to the mail on opensuse-factory@ rather then opensuse@ where we see lots of emails along the lines of ABC broke in the latest snapshot > There seems nowhere one can ask a question of other users, without invoking the > wrath of the board, or the swift admonition to go join another mailing list > and post your problem there. > Yes if you are asking "support" questions in the very broad term of support on the opensuse-support@ mailing list no one will get grumpy with you, if you want to ask other users how to cook fish or where to go on holiday etc opensuse-offtopic@ is a much better place. > I'm thinking the Forum would be a better place. It is for Manjaro, but > I'm not so sure it is for Opensuse. > openSUSE has excellent forums to the point where the board considered just moving all support questions to there rather then mailing lists, but as we know some people prefer mailing lists we decided against that. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

2 years, 9 months

[opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse] Re: [opensuse-support] expected behavior, or not?

by Fraser_Bell

On 05/29/2018 02:02 PM, John Andersen wrote: > On 05/29/2018 11:09 AM, cagsm wrote: > >> Forums is for webtards ;p and bugreport >> is for proper precise reporting with already distilled details. > > Unfair, and rather insulting. Correct. Guidelines? Principles? > > New users can post in a forum, and some one or two people can take them > in hand and lead them to a solution or maybe @mention someone else known to > be knowledgeable on the subject at hand and thereby call their attention to > the thread. > > But the rest of the forum can just stay away from that thread, and never > have it filling their mailbox weeks or months after it has wandered off > track. > > Bug reports are where you go once you are sure the problem is real, > after talking to other, on a list or a forum. ... this is very well said, John. Thanks. -- -Gerry Makaro openSUSE Member openSUSE Forum Moderator openSUSE Contributor aka Fraser_Bell on the Forums, OBS, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org Fraser-Bell on Github -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

2 years, 9 months

Re: [opensuse] Re: [opensuse-project] Re: Mailinglist changes going forward

by Fraser_Bell

On 05/29/2018 03:23 AM, Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote: > Op dinsdag 29 mei 2018 11:21:58 CEST schreef ellanios82: >> On 29/05/18 11:57, David C. Rankin wrote: >>> This seems like action being taken to address a problem that isn't readily >>> apparent or very well defined from your original post. >> - believe Chairman Brown in most eloquent spokesperson for these >> fragmentation-thought-processes >> > The board has talked about this, *not* out of some wicked idea, but because it > was asked to many times. Yes, *asked for* by the Users and the Community, for a long time, now. > And this has nothing, *absolutely* noting to do with what the board "wants". Read the board > pages in the wiki and you'll see the board has no authority to act except when > asked for. Can we please have that illusion out of the world and these > suggestions over and done with. The Board is *not* allowed to dictate to the Community, and it *does not*! The Board represents the wishes of the Community -- this is why they are elected and not appointed -- and acts according to the wishes of the majority. When they do not, it is because it is something the Board cannot do anything about. Simple as that. > And whilst doing so also stop mentioning individual board member names, since the board operates as a team. > ... Guiding Principles. -- -Gerry Makaro openSUSE Member openSUSE Forum Moderator openSUSE Contributor aka Fraser_Bell on the Forums, OBS, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org Fraser-Bell on Github -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

2 years, 9 months

[opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Opening private bugs

by Simon Lees

On 29/05/18 02:09, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: > On 05/28/2018 05:19 PM, Anton Aylward wrote: >> As I said, elsewhere, not all problems are bugs. >> Those that are not are better solved by the Wisdom of Crowds than annoying a >> single developer who has limited time and patience. > > I agree with that. I have made the experience from Debian that many users > abuse the bug tracking system as a support forum. It can be quite frustrating > when you are overrun with invalid bug reports which were just reported because > users are unable to tell a bug from a local configuration issue. > >> But not all problems are bugs. Deep debugging can be challenging and >> infuriating, but the resolution gives satisfaction. >> Dealing with users making their own <strike>idiocies</strike> mistakes into bug >> reports is frustrating and annoying. >> >> I hope this *IS* a short term solution since in the longer term the Suse >> developers will get annoyed enough to stop volunteering <strike>to deal with >> idiots</strike>. > > Yes. If you tell people to report a bug every time they run into a problem, > you will have your bug tracker flooded with invalid bug reports. > Again 2 different issues that we are trying to be solved differently have been mixed up here. If as in the case suggested in this email you have tried to setup a webserver for example and something is not working and your not sure if you did it wrong or you found a bug, you should not file a bug you should ask for help on opensuse-support@ on the other hand if you zypper dup in tumbleweed and something breaks which is likely a bug then rather then reporting it on opensuse-factory@ we would like you to create a bug report. Sorry if this wasn't clear in the original email. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

2 years, 9 months

[opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse] Re: [opensuse-support] expected behavior, or not? (was: Mailinglist changes going forward)

by Simon Lees

On 29/05/18 05:31, Felix Miata wrote: > Simon Lees composed on 2018-05-28 21:21 (UTC+0930): > >> This brings us to the next issue, posting bugs / bug reports on mailing >> lists rather then bugzilla. This is a practice we would like to see >> stopped and we will be gently reminding people if they continue posting >> bugs on mailinglists, this especially includes if a package / >> application breaks when updating tumbleweed / leap (including beta's). >> We would ask that you search for your issue prior to reporting but in >> case you accidentally report a duplicate bug its easy for us to mark it >> as such, also if you report something that is intentional and not a bug >> it doesn't take long to mark it as such, so if in doubt file a bug >> rather then posting to a mailing list, there is useful information for >> filing bugs at the following links [1][2]. But if you are really stuck >> with trying to file your bug the friendly people at opensuse-support(a)o.o >> can support you through the process. > > I don't get stuck "filing" bugs. I get stuck figuring out whether something is > expected behavior, or constitutes a bug. > And that is where you should use opensuse-support@ > Who's going to do all that extra triage work if every time someone has that > dilemma and proceeds to file a bug instead of asking first? Mailing lists seem > to generate responses, useful or otherwise, faster. Bugs apparently get seen by > a select few, and are often ignored for long periods. > > Just what constitutes "filing a bug" on a mailing list? There are many posts on opensuse-factory@, that are along the lines of I updated to the latest snapshot and XYZ broke, these are what we'd prefer to have as bugreports. > >> 1. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Bug_reporting_FAQ >> 2. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Submitting_bug_reports > > I don't think these clarify, but at least indirectly may be inducing list > "filing". From the latter: > > "Non-technical users: You may try first http://forums.opensuse.org ." > -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

2 years, 9 months

[opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-factory] Opening private bugs

by Simon Lees

On 29/05/18 02:59, Anton Aylward wrote: > On 28/05/18 12:12 PM, Simon Lees wrote: >> As I said in my >> original email SUSE Engineering is currently looking into how they can >> do this but at the same time stay within there various requirements that >> ensure customer information stays private. > > I can read that as "they can benefit from our experience and bug reports because > we're not 'professional' enough but we can't benefit from theirs". > > Please explain why this is not the case. > There are various certifications that SUSE needs to have in order to fulfill many of there contracts with customers, these state alongside other things that customer info must remain private. In the past before the shared code base the easiest most logical way to do this was to simply make all SLE bugs private, as I said SUSE Engineering understands this won't work into the future and are looking into alternatives. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

2 years, 9 months

[opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Mailinglist changes going forward

by Carlos E. R.

On 2018-05-28 16:50, Anton Aylward wrote: > On 28/05/18 07:51 AM, Simon Lees wrote: >> This brings us to the next issue, posting bugs / bug reports on mailing >> lists rather then bugzilla. This is a practice we would like to see >> stopped and we will be gently reminding people if they continue posting >> bugs on mailinglists, this especially includes if a package / >> application breaks when updating tumbleweed / leap (including beta's). > > I understand your concern. > What you are complaining about is people too lazy or disinclined to use bugzilla > to report valid bugs. I know (and you know, Anton) of some people that bluntly refuse to use bugzilla, and nothing will change their thinking ;-) > However ... > >> We would ask that you search for your issue prior to reporting > > Not just on bugzilla but ... > > I'm sure there are users less experienced than me who are unsure of themselves > and unsure if what they see as something wrong is a bug or their own mistake. > The mistake may be wrong assumptions about what is supposed to happen or it may > be misconfiguration rather than a bug. > > My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on > bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have > time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really > wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this > bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up. > > And perhaps I'm not alone ... > > So before reporting to bugzilla I ask on the list "Is this my mistake?" I do that. :-) I hate to report a bugzilla and then find out that it was my fault, and that I wasted a contributor time. I really hate that. > To date, a better than 90% of the cases has been "MY mistake and guidance, often > from people that I don't think would be opensuse-support(a)o.o. And yes, I've > been referred to the kde- list and the btrfs- list and the xfs- list and the > people there have always been helpful in telling me what I was doing wrong. > > MY opinion is that using bugzilla as a 'first resort' will result in a lot of > <strike>highly pissed off</strike> irritated developers as well as lots of even > more <strike>highly pissed off</strike> irritated users. I agree. > > Yes, opensuse-support(a)o.o will work, *IF* you publicise the hell out of it and > keep telling people who subscribe, naturally enough, to the main and other lists. > Perhaps you need a sign-up notice a monthly notice, such as the sort that > Mailman can send, telling users about opensuse-support(a)o.o and the other lists, > kde-, btrfs-, xfs- and so on, and to take specific problems there. Perhaps. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

2 years, 9 months

[opensuse-project] Retiring the Ambassadors/Advocates names

by Simon Lees

Hi All Another thing that came out of last weeks board meeting is that we would like to retire the ambassadors and advocates names, instead we would like to encourage anyone to be an ambassador / advocate for openSUSE. There is a list of things you can do / consider if you would like to run an event or a booth at someone elses event at [1] and a list of events where openSUSE representatives are already planing to attend at [2] 1. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Events 2. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Upcoming_events Thanks -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

2 years, 9 months

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openSUSE Project May 2018