On 28/05/18 22:07, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hey,

On 28.05.2018 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Firstly we have created a new opensuse-support@o.o mailing list

Can you please clarify what is the difference to opensuse@opensuse.org? I don't get it...

Henne

The board felt that have been many issues with the way at times opensuse@opensuse.org has offered support over the years this list as part of a community members assessment from the last days probably highlights some of the issues * off-topic posts * derogatory posts * abusive posts * rants * extended rambling * me too's We as the board are aware of a number of community members (including several on the board) who are willing to offer support to users but have since left the opensuse@ list or have mail filters because they thought it wasn't effectively fulfilling its role. There have been several attempts over the years to better focus the mailing list and improve the way it works none of which really worked that well and given the number of people that had left we felt the best way forward was to create a new list and hope that many of the people who previously left the old list join the new one. The board also discussed whether we really even still needed a mailing list for support or whether there was something else like the forums that would be a better place. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 28/05/18 15:39, Simon Lees wrote:

On 28/05/18 22:07, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

Hey,

On 28.05.2018 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Firstly we have created a new opensuse-support@o.o mailing list

Can you please clarify what is the difference to opensuse@opensuse.org? I don't get it...

Henne

The board felt that have been many issues with the way at times opensuse@opensuse.org has offered support over the years this list as part of a community members assessment from the last days probably highlights some of the issues

* off-topic posts * derogatory posts * abusive posts * rants * extended rambling * me too's

We as the board are aware of a number of community members (including several on the board) who are willing to offer support to users but have since left the opensuse@ list or have mail filters because they thought it wasn't effectively fulfilling its role. There have been several attempts over the years to better focus the mailing list and improve the way it works none of which really worked that well and given the number of people that had left we felt the best way forward was to create a new list and hope that many of the people who previously left the old list join the new one. The board also discussed whether we really even still needed a mailing list for support or whether there was something else like the forums that would be a better place. As a user and maintainer that uses the opensuse list for both support

and to give support: Yes some of the threads are unreadable and sometimes too many are giving suggestions at the same time but I'm not going to subscribe to another mailing list. When I'm busy I scan through the Factory and opensuse list for issues that involve packages I maintain, I didn't even see the begining of this thread, just the stub that appeared on the project list from Henne. I'm subscribed to Factory, Build service, announce, project, opensuse and several developer lists for packages I maintain, sorry I just don't have time for another list. Dave Plater -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/28/2018 09:05 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

On 28/05/18 22:08, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Hi Simon,

On 28.05.2018 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

The board hopes that with the changes outlined above the contents of the opensuse-factory@o.o will go back to just being general distro development discussion so if your post to openSUSE factory is something other then that think twice about where the more appropriate place to post is.

Actually the posts "foo seems broken for me after $DATE snapshot" are the most useful content for me on factory@

Now I am supposed to scan bugzilla for problems before "zypper dup"? To quote an almost famous SUSE employee: "Kein f*ckender Weg!" ;-) (sorry, the joke works only in german)

...

The new tumbleweed snapshots will continue to be posted to factory but we would ask you do not reply to them in order to report issues / bugs. If a bug is reported that a package maintainer believes will cause significant issues for most tumbleweed users ie not being able to boot / login or severe data loss we still invite the maintainer to post a warning to opensuse-factory but such issues happen very rarely and as such we don't expect to see many such posts.

This will make opensuse-factory "mostly useless" for me and I will probably stop reading it on a regular base. I will not subscribe to a "-support" list.

As I had pointed out to a board member in person in Prague already, the current style of opensuse-factory worked just fine for me (maybe drop the flamewars).

If opensuse-factory is ever returned to its current modus operandi, then please someone ping me, so I might start reading it agin.

P.S.: I would be slightly interested in a description of the problem this change is supposed to solve...

The main issue that this is meant to solve is that many of the people working on openSUSE development have stopped paying as much attention to the factory mailing list because it is full of foo is broken in tumbleweed posts and they don't care about those.

Hmm seems to be counter intuitive "work on openSUSE developemnt, "do not care about 'foo is broken' reports by fellow developers or users". Later, Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Distinguished Architect LINUX Team Lead Public Cloud rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo

On 2018-05-29 14:06, Simon Lees wrote:

On Tuesday, 29 May 2018 21:07:42 ACST, Robert Schweikert wrote:

...

On 05/28/2018 09:05 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 28/05/18 22:08, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

Hi Simon,

On 28.05.2018 13:51, Simon Lees wrote: ...

The main issue that this is meant to solve is that many of the people working on openSUSE development have stopped paying as much attention to the factory mailing list because it is full of foo is broken in tumbleweed posts and they don't care about those.

Hmm seems to be counter intuitive "work on openSUSE developemnt, "do not care about 'foo is broken' reports by fellow developers or users".

...

The aim is more making sure the right people get to care about the issue, for example there is currently no guarantee the maintainer of foo is using this list and will see the problem until someone creates a bug report anyway. Currently instead the 90% of developers who don't use or care about foo have one more email thread that they have to ignore which eventually leads to them mostly ignoring the factory list and inevitably missing important development discussions.

By creating bugzilla entries for the issue then the right people know about the issue straight away and if they believe it will have a significant impact on most users / developers they can choose to post a warning to the list.

It is as simple as after the peer review on the mail list, someone tells the poster "yes, this seems a bug, please report on bugzilla". Most people do so. The devs then get real reports on bugzilla. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Am 29.05.2018 um 16:04 schrieb martin@pluskal.org:

Weel asking for separation and usage of bugzilla is far from not caring. I am aware of several active developers in openSUSE who unsubscribed from factory due to its volume, and I doubt that ones that are subscribed have really time to go through all messages anyways.

Well, it's actually not necessary to got throug all messages. My workflow ("T" in thunderbird marks a thread as read ans skips to next thread) * m/^subject:.*(plasma|kde|gnome|nvidia)/i && hit T * m/^from:.*/i && hit T This marks about 50% of the mails as read immediately, the other half also gets largely marked read after scanning the subject The rest is not that much to actually read. And the "foo does not work after update to $DATE" more than once were helpful hints to postpone an update. This workflow works well for me. In bugzilla I actively have to poll for new bugs, and the "foo does not work after..." is basically impossible to find for me, unless I know what to search for. ¹ everyone probably has his favorite list-members he'd rather ignore, because they -- in his opinion -- do not add significantly to the discussions but take up a lot of time -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 28/05/18 22:38, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Hi Simon,

On 28.05.2018 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

The board hopes that with the changes outlined above the contents of the opensuse-factory@o.o will go back to just being general distro development discussion so if your post to openSUSE factory is something other then that think twice about where the more appropriate place to post is. Actually the posts "foo seems broken for me after $DATE snapshot" are the most useful content for me on factory@

Now I am supposed to scan bugzilla for problems before "zypper dup"? To quote an almost famous SUSE employee: "Kein f*ckender Weg!" ;-) (sorry, the joke works only in german)

No, it works just as well in English :-). <pruned> BC -- "..The times have been That, when the brains were out, the man would die,.." "Macbeth", Shakespeare -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 28/05/18 23:01, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Simon Lees [05-28-18 07:53]:

...

Hello everyone,

Firstly I am cross posting this across a number of mailinglists because this post affects several, but I would ask that you keep your replies / feedback on the openSUSE project list as not to fragment discussion.

It has been raised with the board by several members of the community that some of our mailinglists have not been working as effectively as we would like. As such and as raised in our annual discussion with the community during the conference, the board has decided to take a couple of steps that we hope will resolve these issues or that will at least be a starting point in resolving these issues.

Firstly we have created a new opensuse-support@o.o mailing list, we as the board felt that in the transition from factory -> tumbleweed in particular the change in role for opensuse@o.o did not work well and in many cases there was an attitude that factory/tumbleweed issues should still be posted on the factory mailing list. As such we have created the support mailing list to help clarify these changes in policy that we don't believe worked when we tried to change them last time. In short we would like you to use opensuse-support@o.o whenever you require support whether it is for Tumbleweed, Leap (regardless of whether you are using a Leap beta or not) or any other project under the openSUSE umbrella.

This brings us to the next issue, posting bugs / bug reports on mailing lists rather then bugzilla. This is a practice we would like to see stopped and we will be gently reminding people if they continue posting bugs on mailinglists, this especially includes if a package / application breaks when updating tumbleweed / leap (including beta's). We would ask that you search for your issue prior to reporting but in case you accidentally report a duplicate bug its easy for us to mark it as such, also if you report something that is intentional and not a bug it doesn't take long to mark it as such, so if in doubt file a bug rather then posting to a mailing list, there is useful information for filing bugs at the following links [1][2]. But if you are really stuck with trying to file your bug the friendly people at opensuse-support@o.o can support you through the process.

The board hopes that with the changes outlined above the contents of the opensuse-factory@o.o will go back to just being general distro development discussion so if your post to openSUSE factory is something other then that think twice about where the more appropriate place to post is. The new tumbleweed snapshots will continue to be posted to factory but we would ask you do not reply to them in order to report issues / bugs. If a bug is reported that a package maintainer believes will cause significant issues for most tumbleweed users ie not being able to boot / login or severe data loss we still invite the maintainer to post a warning to opensuse-factory but such issues happen very rarely and as such we don't expect to see many such posts.

The board has decided that it would like to see how well these changes work before deciding to add / remove / change openSUSE's mailing lists further. Although we have discussed several other possibilities that we could also try in the future.

1. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Bug_reporting_FAQ 2. https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Submitting_bug_reports

and what if anything will you do with the opensuse@o.o list, merge opensuse-offtopic into it? not a lot of difference any more.

We haven't decided to do anything at this point and we didn't really discuss doing anything in detail at this stage we decided that for now we would wait. Personally I think the address opensuse@opensuse.org is worth having but for general project queries maybe even just as a redirect for opensuse-project@ but the board hasn't discussed it yet.

and w/o addiding moderation, how do you expect the new opensuse-support list to differ from the current opensuse list?

I think that we as the board hope that the new list will create a slightly different community and culture with a better expectation about what the list is for, there are several members of the board already subscribed to the list and hopefully we can help mold it into a positive support community like openSUSE has in the forums etc. As for moderation the board didn't even discuss it I guess our hope is that it wont be needed. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B