August 2009 - openSUSE Project - openSUSE Mailing Lists

[opensuse-project] Core Teams and OBS
by Magnus Boman 13 Aug '09

13 Aug '09

Hello, In the GNOME team, we currently trying to come up with a way to set the bugowner so that the GNOME Core Team gets notified when bugreports are created. The only way I can see this be done, is to create a Novell account, an email account and then add rules to forward incoming emails to people in the Core Team. Although possible, it is a bit inconvenient to have the above dummy accounts. It'd be nice if we: * In users.o.o, the Team Owner, could create a group that gets assigned an email address (ie, gnome-maintainers(a)opensuse.org) and add members to this group. The group is basically a mailinglist * In OBS, groups created in users.o.o can be used as bugowner I thought of creating a FATE request for it, but it touches users.o.o, OBS and the mailinglist infrastructure so not sure if we need 1 or 3 requests for it. Comments? Cheers, Magnus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Draft of Desktop Policy
by Andreas Jaeger 13 Aug '09

13 Aug '09

After reading all emails and having many discussions about the default desktop topic, I've wrote up the following draft proposal (at the end of my long email) and propose to enact it. Note, let's keep have the following important questions to keep in mind: * What is a fair treatment all involved parties that do great work? * What is the best for openSUSE? What will help openSUSE grow? Preamble There are many decisions that a Linux distribution does for its users, e.g. packages installed by default and version of packages, and also which of these decisions can be changed by the user or where the distribution limits the user or makes it difficult for the user to decide. openSUSE's installation tries to ask the user as little as possible and uses good heuristics e.g. on how to partition a system. It also comes with an automatic configuration which sets up the system in a default way. Nevertheless a couple of questions are asked during installation - and some of these are considered difficult questions for a user. The decision about e.g. default editor (emacs, vi, joe,...) or default filesystem are decisions that the distribution does on behalf of the user - even while most users have a preference here. Users expect from a distribution to adjust their system, e.g. change the default editor, in an easy way. The success of a distribution depends on both how it serves the needs of its current users but also on how it addresses new Linux users. While there is friendly competition between different desktops, the real competition is between Open Source desktop environment and closed source ones - and therefore the question of default desktop should be considered on what's best for new Linux users. Many think that openSUSE should decide for new users on a default desktop - and on the other hand make it easy for users to choose a different one or install additional ones. A decision on the desktop question has to look not only on which desktop is the default but also what this means for this desktop and the other desktops. The Desktop Policy gives such a framework. Making one default the desktop will not change the way that Novell sponsors the openSUSE community project. There have been comments that making a decision for a default will help both the GNOME and KDE development teams to give users a better desktop experience. I'm inviting those to stand up to their comments and really help out - openSUSE as a community distribution will only get a desktop that is as good as the development community will make it. Desktop Policy 0. The following text uses GNOME and KDE in alphabetical order. These rules apply to development of openSUSE only, not for any other Novell products. 1. Both GNOME and KDE are first class desktops in openSUSE: neither is technically superior to the other. openSUSE should be known as the distribution with the best GNOME desktop and the best KDE desktop! 2. We make it easy to choose between these two desktops during installation, install both of them - or install others as well. 3. On the relevant screen during installation the most popular desktop is preselected, the desktops are listed in alphabetical order. 4. This screen will explain that both GNOME and KDE are first class desktops and the default is based on popularity. 5. Let's sit together at the openSUSE conference and decide what both GNOME and KDE beeing first-class desktops signifies and how all desktop development teams can work together. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj(a){novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

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[opensuse-project] openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 5 Released
by Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier 10 Aug '09

10 Aug '09

openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 5 (M5) is now available for download[1]. It includes several updates, new features, bugfixes, and other improvements. This milestone includes KDE 4.3 final, a kernel built specifically for desktop systems, and beta 1 of OpenOffice.org 3.1.1. This is a Milestone Release, one of several that lead up to the 11.2 final release in November. It may not be suitable for production systems, but is ready for contributors who want to help with testing and development for 11.2. Changes Since openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 4 =========================================== Lots of changes since the M4 release! This release is built with GCC 4.4.1, and debug packages are generated for each sub-package. It also includes many updated packages and a few new packages, including: * Linux kernel 2.6.31-rc4 * Xen 3.4.1 RC10 * GNOME 2.27.5 * PackageKit 0.5 * Apache 2.2.12 * Choqok 0.6.1 * VirtualBox 3.0.2 A more complete list can be found on the wiki[2] and an updated list of Factory packages can be found on DistroWatch[3]. 11.2 is looking fantastic. Want screenshots? We've got 'em! Check out the shots here[4], and/or add your own. Most Annoying Bugs ====================== As this is a milestone release, 11.2 M5 does contain a few bugs that we know about, but should not stand between courageous contributors and release testing. The big bugs in 11.2 M5 are: * Live CD ISOs will not boot from USB on some hardware * The GNOME Live-CD image is missing Tomboy, Beagle, and GNOME-Do. * Bug #529098[5]: x86_64 DVD ISO doesn't fit on DVD * Bug #522025[6]: X doesn't display properly in VirtualBox machines with big video memory. Workaround: reduce video memory size or switch to first console and back (default: right Ctrl-F1, right Ctrl-F7) * Bug #529113[7]: and Bug #482749[8]: kdesu does not work (for example, starting YaST), work-around: 'su -c "unset DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS;yast2"' * Bug #528397[9]: X server might hang with some video drivers (vesa, intel) in runlevel 5 before the KDM logon occurs. A workaround can be found in this comment[10]. You can track the Most Annoying Bugs on the wiki[11] along with 11.2 development. Testing! Testing! Testing! ============================== As you can see, 11.2 M5 does have a few annoying bugs that we know about -- but there may be more lurking somewhere in the release that haven't been found yet. If you want to make sure 11.2 final is free of Most Annoying Bugs, we'll need your help finding, reporting, and fixing those hidden bugs. Holger Sickenberg has put out a call for testing team members. If you're interested in doing some heavy testing on openSUSE, check out Holger's announcement[12]. To learn more about testing openSUSE, visit the Testing[13] pages on the openSUSE wiki. To follow the testing and development process, we suggest that you subscribe to the openSUSE-Factory mailing list, and join the #openSUSE- Factory channel on Freenode to discuss openSUSE development. Get Milestone 5 Today! ========================== What are you waiting for? Grab the milestone release today! Downloads are available at software.opensuse.org/developer/[14] now. Note, if you need to try the live DVD on a machine with no CD-ROM drive, you can copy it to a USB key with the following command: dd if=image.iso of=/dev/sdX bs=4M Replace "image.iso" with the name of the ISO image that you have downloaded, and replace "sdX" with the actual device name of your USB drive. Be careful! This will erase the target device, so make sure you have the correct device name and have any vital data backed up! The next milestone will be released on August 20th. [1]: http://software.opensuse.org/developer [2]: http://en.opensuse.org/Factory/News [3]: http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=suse [4]: http://en.opensuse.org/Screenshots/11.2_Milestones [5]: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=529098 [6]: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=522025 [7]: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=529113 [8]: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=482749 [9]: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=528397 [10]: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=528397#c3 [11]: http://en.opensuse.org/Bugs:Most_Annoying_Bugs_11.2_dev [12]: http://lizards.opensuse.org/2009/07/24/call-for-opensuse-core-test-team/ [13]: http://en.opensuse.org/Testing/ [14]: http://software.opensuse.org/developer/ -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb(a)zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Charles Kerr 10 Aug '09

10 Aug '09

Lubos Lunak wrote: >> On Monday 03 of August 2009, Jean Cayron wrote: >> >> Hope that it can help positively to put an end to this never >> ending discussion. > I'm afraid it cannot. Assuming you are serious about this, then this > does not actually change almost anything. It mitigates a small part > of the problem but it creates new ones (would there be somebody who > would not laugh at us for this?) and it doesn't solve the primary problem. > > It was a mistake to present the UI itself as a problem, as that is just a > demonstration of the underlying problem. Please see the "my KDE summary" > mail from me, 3rd paragraph especially. The problem is there is a > perception that openSUSE does not treat KDE even at least equally as GNOME, > because GNOME is artificially elevated to they-are-both-default status > with KDE, even though this is nowhere else done in openSUSE. > The official message to KDE "you are equally welcome in openSUSE" conflicts > with openSUSE granting special rights to KDE's competing project that are > not granted to any other project included in openSUSE. This is my first post to -project, so before I dive in, a quick introduction: I wrote and maintain the Qt /and/ GTK+ versions of Transmission, and switch Dekstops every few weeks. I sympathise with both sides -- as both a user and a developer -- and have been reading this thread with interest. I think two unchecked radiobuttons are both fair, defensible ideas. I'm sure everyone can see why GNOME people would prefer GNOME to go first. I'm sure everyone can see why KDE people would prefer KDE to go first. Jean's Belgian solution seems like a great compromise suggestion to me. Some GNOME users' (such as Jim's) concession saying "put KDE at the top" seems like an earnest attempt to keep the peace, and to keep balance. Lubos and a couple of others keep slapping down those suggestions based on reasoning that seems shaky to me. The argument is that users don't have to choose bash vs zsh, or emacs vs vim, and so on; therefore, making users choose between KDE and GNOME is inherently biased to GNOME. But that's apples and oranges -- choosing a Desktop also chooses a raft of default applications, such as (say) KTorrent or Monsoon. That's a *huge* choice compared to a shell or MUA. They're not even in the same ballpark. > would there be somebody who would not laugh at us for this? I woudn't. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Best Proposal is AJ's with Check Boxes instead of radial
by Boyd Lynn Gerber 10 Aug '09

10 Aug '09

Hello, I think after all the talk, Using AJ's Proposal with check boxes works... Summary. 1. Modify Screnn with Text that makes it clear that both are equally supported DE. 2. Change to check Boxes with KDE listed first and preselected. 3. Make it clear that the ordering is based on... This means order may change in the future, but that ordering is based On most popular of the community. a) This makes it clear that the most popular DE will always be listed first. b) This avoids any political statements. c) Treats both DE's equally. 4. This allows a new user to just click next. 5. Make links that if the network is setup, the user is able to go to the various DE's home page to learn more to make the choice. 6. Possible small walk through the desktops to demostate them. Personally I never liked having to make a choice here. I always have to go to the advanced modes and select the patterns I really want. As I have to have both to appease the various people using the machine. I hope this will allow us to really focus on what is in 11.2 and stop wasting time and bandwidth rehashing the same old things. Thanks, -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb(a)zenez.com> 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Michael Loeffler 09 Aug '09

09 Aug '09

There are pretty many pros and cons and even more people with their opinion about the feature [1]I'd like to summarize what has been said in the discussion in the feature itself and during this week's openSUSE project meeting. Unfortunately the only sure thing is whatever decision is taken - it will be wrong for some. This is why, at this time, we have no default - because openSUSE has strong GNOME and KDE implementations, we offer them side-by-side as equals. And we made 2 years ago on opensuse-project the decision that we stay with "no default" desktop. So what do we have so far? - a feature request [1] from one of the KDE e.V. board members - the feature asks to make KDE default. Reason for that, is to make openSUSE more simple for newbies and to make openSUSE the best KDE distribution around - Through the discussion in the feature I'd translate that feature into put the radio button as default to KDE on the desktop selection screen during installation instead of today's status where everybody needs to make a choice between - the highest rated feature in openFATE [2] until today - a majority of people supporting this feature (currently approx. 90% pro, 1% neutral, 9% against) What I clearly see as pro is: - listening to our KDE community we may gain more KDE contributors. But don't forget this feature is also about making openSUSE an outstanding KDE distribution. And for that just voting for a feature is not enough. For becoming an outstanding KDE distribution we need you to contribute - we simplify the installation by one click for 2/3 of our users, according to question no. 11 in our last openSUSE survey [3] made in 11.0 time frame - the GNOME users keep status quo and need to set the radio button as before What I clearly see as con is: - our pretty active GNOME community won't be very happy about it - our strength is to support choice and two major desktops - with the CD you always get a default desktop What might stay doubtful? - Would changing a radio button really drive lots of users and contributors to us? - Would already KDE as a default make us to an outstanding KDE distribution? - Does openSUSE need a default desktop? What I suggest? Due to upcoming feature freeze for openSUSE 11.2 we have only the possibility to default the radio button to KDE. But this is IMO more a diplomatic solution which doesn't help much anybody. We should give the feature one or two more weeks to evolve and need to do the decision for openSUSE 11.2 by mid of August. Some other observations I have with respect about this feature: - inviting people through blogs, web pages, mailing lists or twitter to vote has potential to set the credibility of the voting system at risk as people not involved with openSUSE or not using openSUSE express their thoughts - the feature shows the success of opening up the openSUSE project. Few years ago decisions were made by Novell and nowadays decisions are challenged by our community. - I'm pretty happy about the way the discussion is handled (impartial, no bashing etc.) May wisdom be with us - and may we get in openSUSE the best GNOME and the best KDE desktops! Best M [1] https://features.opensuse.org/306967 [2] https://features.opensuse.org/ [3] http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf -- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex

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[opensuse-project] OpenSUSE Developer Network
by Sascha 'saigkill' Manns 08 Aug '09

08 Aug '09

Hello Mates, today i get an Idea for our Project. We can create an new Project like MSDN (Microsoft Developer Network) specially for OpenSUSE. I thought we can make an DowloadSite (1-Klick) for needed Software. Another Tab includes the API RReferences from KDE4, GNOME and other Stuff. In the Tab Learning we can include some HowTo's for Programming. That's just an thought. Maybe you like it... Sascha P.S.: I've created an Featurerequest: https://features.opensuse.org/307256 -- Sincerely yours Sascha Manns openSUSE Ambassador openSUSE Marketing Team openSUSE Build Service Web: http://saschamanns.gulli.to Project-Blog: http://lizards.opensuse.org/author/saigkill Private-Blog: http://saschasbacktrace.blogspot.com

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[opensuse-project] Default desktop: the Belgian solution
by Jean Cayron 08 Aug '09

08 Aug '09

In Belgium we have often this kind of endless discussions but not about desktops but about languages. As you know there are three officials languages (Dutch, French and German) and amongst them two main ones (Dutch and French). A bit like our desktop, Xfce being the German language ;-) Some National Institutions have their name in two languages like the Opera in Brussels "La Monnaie" (FR) or "De Munt" (NL). To make everyone happy they've decided for the marketing and other public communications to use one year the naming "De Munt - La Monnaie" and the one after "La Monnaie - De Munt" and so on for years. As some KDE users feel unhappy that the Gnome desktop appears first on the list during the installation let me propose this: - For 11.2 lets place KDE first - For 11.3 lets place Gnome first - For 12.0 lets place KDE first and so on... And if another Desktop (Moblin, Xfce?) becomes mainstream, let see later. Of course, none of them should be preselected. My experience with firends is that if they don't know, they click on the first one. Hope that it can help positively to put an end to this never ending discussion. Regards to all KDE, Gnome and other openSUSE lovers, Djan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Milestone 5 Released...?
by Satoru Matsumoto 07 Aug '09

07 Aug '09

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 It seems openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 5 is released[1] as scheduled, but there is no announcement for that. Are there any descriptions or notices for this release ? [1] http://software.opensuse.org/developer Best, - -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.geeko.jp/author/heliosreds _/_/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkp8TtEACgkQXnHIfHE6+z1EqwCfd3xIb+6ZCu6OIHUxOmkQI8jG yrcAn3Z2Jrg0GQttJi2p5wvIFVlfGfNM =Wx6U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] What you vote, and what you DON'T vote on - openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Christian Jäger 07 Aug '09

07 Aug '09

Hello, please excuse me, but as a political scientist I have to butt in here and say my piece. ;-) The problem here is a misapprehension of what a majority vote can and can not do. The question at hand (default desktop) is very comparable to a conflict between two rivaling ethnicities living in the same country. As democratic decision-making does and should not take into account ethnicity, there will always be core-issues that _must_remain_unresolved_ if such a country is to exist for any length of time. These are issues which directly correlate to contradicting interests of one or the other ethnic community (i.e. zero-sum games). If one of the ethnic communities (as it usually is the case) is bigger than the other one it could easily decide such critical issues continuously to their advantage and to the disadvantage of the smaller community. A majority decision here would not be the result of a decision-making process or bargaining, which are prerequisite to any meaningful democratic decision, but would simply represent the bigger party pushing its interests at the expense of the smaller party, which would be detrimental to the system as a whole. Here purely democratric decision-making fails. A majority vote will in the end result in disintegrating the country. Majority decisions are NOT a fair solution to solve problems involving two persistent interest groups. The belief that voting is a fair solution to EVERY problem is simply wrong; the theory of democracy suggests otherwise. Reliance on majority votes alone is 'not democratic' in our modern understanding of the word because when we talk about democracy we don't mean majority vote but a system which in addition to that also respects the right of the individual and the interests of minorities. This is why our political systems are NOT democracies but 'liberal democracies' (liberalism is a necessary component that prevents the abuse of majority influence). Coming back to my analogy of two ethnicities living in the same country, there are two ways such a situation can go: a) a split of the country, which brings a whole new set of problems b) ways of decision making other than majority-based are set in place and unresolvable questions (=zero-sum games) are made a taboo These are also the options for the opensuse-distribution, translating into: a) discontinue the DVD-releases and only put out Live-CDs, thus avoiding the issue (a mild kind of split, as I don't think anybody would really want 'KopenSUSE' and 'GopenSUSE'...) b) treat both communities equally by NOT defaulting to a specific desktop (the zero-sum game is made a taboo) and there is always c) declare it someone else's problem (as in 'let Andreas decide' ;)) 'c)' is not really an option because the new decision maker be it a maintainer of whoever - would face the same problems and consequences. But with a vote on a) or b) I think we would have it down to two meaningful, non-destructive options which don't align with the borders of the two 'camps'. a) would mean KDE fans get their petty little victory, as they don't have to see GNOME at the top of that alphabetic list anymore. For GNOME fans nothing would change. The decision would go at the expense of those serious users who actually NEED the DVDs. b) would mean everyone has to either accept that the openSUSE community as a whole is more important than their feelings about a specific desktop, or they'd have to adjust their perception as to view the Live-CD releases as the main form of distro-release. Perhaps we could make that easier for them by hiding the DVD download-option somewhere unobtrusive. These are IMHO the only options that could realistically be voted upon without making the vote a zero-sum game - because the options to decide on don't represent the persistent interests of the interest groups that decide on it (option A: KDE, option B: GNOME). Again, you CAN'T make default desktop choice a majority vote and call it fair. I am frankly quite amazed by the nonchalance with which a KDE-team member has brought up this explosive issue on the very questionable pretext that a default desktop would bring less confusion and attract more developers, with utter disregard to what this aggravating discussion would entail for the community. The correct way to go about it would have been starting a discussion on this ML. Bringing this up topic as a 'feature request' represents a serious abuse of openFATE IMHO and should have been rejected outright. The gains of this whole discussion are close to zero, the damage has already been done and could potentially be serious if the majority of KDE-proponents on the ML continues to push its agenda. I feel sad about it, I would have expected the openSUSE community to behave in a more adult fashion. Greets, Chris Jäger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] User Survey
by Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier 07 Aug '09

07 Aug '09

One thing this KDE discussion brings up is this: It's been a long time since we've had a user survey. The previous survey can be found here: http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf Any suggestions to modify some of the questions, add new ones, get rid of old ones? (i.e., is it relevant or not to ask "why do you use a dual-boot system"?) Please get me suggestions by end of next week (August 7) Typically we do these infrequently after releases, but I think we should probably be doing them at least every 12 months, which means we're soon overdue. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb(a)zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openSUSE on EC2: Any further information?
by Mark V 07 Aug '09

07 Aug '09

Hi, Unfortunately I didn't archive this information, but I am sure I read a meeting minute, in the last few weeks, that indicated someone was looking at getting openSUSE to run on Amazon's EC2.... openFATE only shows a request to include eucalyptus in 11.2 Without reviving the woes of previous false starts, I do have some questions: 1) Is it intended that the current state-of-affairs persist, i.e. only private/3rd-party SLES images are available, or will there be publicly (community) available images of openSUSE? 2) Is there intended to be something like Ubuntu's EC2 beta 'community', e.g. their mail list and launchpad? 3) Are there specific reasons that SLES can run on EC2 but not openSUSE? Anything the community can do to change this? Would appreciate any insights anyone can offer. Mark -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] Draft of Desktop Policy
by Herbert Graeber 06 Aug '09

06 Aug '09

Am Dienstag 04 August 2009 18:40:13 schrieb Joe Harmon: > >>>On 8/4/2009 at 11:33 AM, Matt Gray <mjg(a)see3d.co.uk> wrote: > > > > The new users that we are trying to attract* wouldn't care, they just > > want an option that is as easy as ubuntu manage (read: install because > > they will equate one with the other) > > I would say that they wouldn't know what the selection would give them, not > that they wouldn't care. How do we know which one they would or would not > prefer? In this case to take what the majority of openSUSE users take is a good bet... > Selecting a default is not solving that problem, it is forcing a > choice upon them. Not "forcing", "suggesting" is the better term. Do not overestimate, what fate#306967 is about. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Views from the Weekly News
by Sascha 'saigkill' Manns 05 Aug '09

05 Aug '09

Hello Friends, it is possible to find out, how many Views from the Weekly News exists? -- Sincerely yours Sascha Manns openSUSE Ambassador openSUSE Marketing Team openSUSE Build Service Web: http://saschamanns.gulli.to Project-Blog: http://lizards.opensuse.org/author/saigkill Private-Blog: http://saschasbacktrace.blogspot.com

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Re: [opensuse-project] Draft of Desktop Policy
by Jean Cayron 05 Aug '09

05 Aug '09

I can agree with this proposal with alphatically order and preselecting the most popular. It could also be horizontally presented, even better. The proposition contructive. Making both "preselected" and "orderd by popularity" is too much. The order can also, as I suggested in a mail, change from on to another release, without impacting the preselection. But let make clear how the popularity is determined: would it be by a survey, by statistics on the servers (updates or oss repository download for example, even if it doesn't 100% prove the actual "use" of a desktop as one can install both). 2009/8/4 Andreas Jaeger <aj(a)novell.com> > > Could you answer on the list, please? > Sorry, I thought I did. My Reply All bugged ;-) > > Please explain what you mean with "make clear how it's determined", > > Thanks, > Andreas > -- > Andreas Jaeger, aj(a){novell.com,opensuse.org} > SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) > Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany > GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Decision making for the distribution
by Andreas Jaeger 05 Aug '09

05 Aug '09

The whole "KDE Default" discussion raises also the question on how we do make decisions and what is the purpose of openFATE. My take on this is: openSUSE in general uses the technically best solution - and this contains both features and stability - and where that's not feasible, the most popular solution is used. With openFATE, an evaluation of features is done and features get marked as usefull - and then we need to decide which of these many features get implemented. And here voting will help to reflect popularity. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj(a){novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Will Stephenson 04 Aug '09

04 Aug '09

On Monday 03 August 2009 18:34:58 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote: > On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Jim Henderson<hendersj(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > If the KDE "camp" will commit to not pushing to remove the option for > > GNOME (or lower its prominence in the selection screen by moving it to > > "other" or doing anything other than presenting it alongside the KDE > > options - heck, go ahead and list KDE first if it's that important to > > them) down the road, then fine. As an individual GNOME user, give me the > > option and support it equally and I'm a happy camper. > > KDE folks? Quoting the important bit of Jim's mail: > So, from my point of view, go ahead, make KDE the default selection if > it'll make the KDE users feel loved. That's all 306967 suggests - and "openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME" - so this +1 from me should be redundant. The rest has been said already. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Herbert Graeber 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

Am Montag 03 August 2009 23:00:59 schrieb Joe Harmon: > >>>On 8/3/2009 at 02:14 PM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson(a)suse.de> wrote: > > > > So here's a suggestion > > > > 1) Keep the current selection page > > > > 2) KDE first and preselected followed by GNOME and others > > > > 3) KDE will not push at a later date for removing the option for GNOME or > > any > > other environment > > > > Work for you? > > Personally I don't have an issue with KDE being listed first but I do have > an issue with KDE being selected by default. Why not just leave it to the > user to select one or the other. I think if you have either selected by > default you run into the KDE vs GNOME wars. Unfortunately selecting *something* useful is the reason for all this. What's on top is secondary. And if anything is preselected it should be KDE, because it is used by most users. That's what fate#306967 is about., nothing else. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openFATE feature #306967 , my KDE summary
by Lubos Lunak 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

The original thread has grown quite a lot over the weekend, 150+ mails, and also parts of it is rubbish (like suggesting that by default both KDE and GNOME are installed, which somehow magically solves the problem of the default selection), so I suppose it will be a pain to process for those reading it only now after the weekend. Therefore I'd like to present an attempt at a summary of the KDE view of the issue. As interpreted by me, of course, since different people still have slightly different positions, but I hope it at least gives an overview to those who do not want to dig in the whole thread. It might be useful if somebody did the same for the GNOME side (and maybe 3rd party, if considered useful too). So: The openFATE request says "make KDE the default desktop" and it doesn't request anything else. It doesn't request anything happening with GNOME, in fact it explicitly mentions that it should remain supported as a choice. It can be interpreted in slightly different ways, my personal interpretation is that this can be achieved by just preselecting KDE in the installation dialog, nothing more. I consider it to be the minimum acceptable for the request and at the same time I believe it can bring the benefits described. An important point that many people here fail to realize that this is not asking for granting a special priviledge to KDE. In fact, it is asking for removing a special priviledge that makes many in the KDE community feel that KDE is treated unequally in openSUSE. In all other cases, when there is a clear preference, it is selected as a default, sometimes not even offering the user an easy choice. In this case, however, while KDE is the clear choice in the openSUSE community, it is not treated the same like in other cases. Instead, GNOME is given a priviledge that a preference must be explicitly expressed here, and this priviledge, to my knowledge, is not given to any other openSUSE component. No other non-default browser, mailer, shell, filesystem, etc. has this luxury. This is interpreted by the KDE community as a message from openSUSE that it values GNOME more, that GNOME is forcibly pushed into openSUSE and that KDE is not equally welcome in openSUSE. The openFATE request, in practice, asks for removing this GNOME priviledge and fair treating of all openSUSE components. This should also make it obvious that the current situation is not considered correct. Since now openSUSE positions itself as an open community distribution, refusing this openFATE request would also be an action that would further stress the perception that the KDE community is not as welcome in openSUSE as the GNOME community and that openSUSE can again choose to hurt the KDE majority despite the obvious preference. Therefore, just as there is the risk that aknowledging KDE's position in openSUSE by accepting the openFATE request would have a negative impact on the GNOME community, there is also the risk that continuing to treat GNOME specially in openSUSE would have a negative impact on the larger KDE community, already treated negatively. For similar reasons I believe that the pros/cons analysis in the original thread is partially incorrect, as it assumes that the current situation is not problematic and keeping the status quo does not cause any harm, or that resolving the situation requires removing choices. And yes, I believe that just changing the radio button would be a sufficient message from openSUSE that KDE is not considered less important than GNOME, likely resulting in increased KDE interest and involvement with openSUSE that could even lead to openSUSE becoming an outstanding KDE distribution, without having to negatively affect GNOME in the process. So, once again, the openFATE request is not about granting KDE any special advantage, nor it requests doing anything with GNOME other than removing this advantage that is considered unjust. It is about signalling the KDE community that they are not treated as 2nd class citizens in openSUSE, which would prevent further alienating of the KDE community and allow increase KDE involvement in openSUSE, currently hampered by the perception that this is not as welcome as GNOME involvement. And while it is considered that focusing openSUSE more on KDE would bring openSUSE more advantages, it is not necessary for KDE, nor any removal of choice of GNOME in openSUSE. This is my interpretation of the openFATE request and the position of the KDE community on this issue and what would be the minimum acceptable to make them actually feel welcome also by openSUSE acts and not just words. As I said, different people have slightly different views, so there are certainly people who have stronger views on this or would disagree with me somewhere (in fact, my own personal opinion here is not exactly in line with this, so am I not just pushing my personal agenda). I however hope this gives an overview and explains some things that many people seem to misunderstand. If you want to have a complete view, of course, enjoy reading the whole thread. In the worst case I've at least saved you reading my mails there :). PS: For those who still don't undestand how the current situation can be considered unfair, an attempt at an analogy: There is an art gallery, showing and selling pictures of two artists. One of them is considerably more popular than the other, thus clearly the gallery benefits more from this artist. Yet the gallery pays both of them the same. That is maybe equal, but it is very unfair. In addition to that, it is also demotivating - the more popular artist has no reason keep doing well or may try to go elsewhere, and the less popular artist does not have a very big motivation to try harder. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak(a)suse.cz , l.lunak(a)kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Magnus Boman 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 17:17 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote: > 2009-08-03 16:56 keltezéssel, Magnus Boman írta: > > On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 16:32 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote: > > > >> 2009-08-03 16:08 keltezéssel, Magnus Boman írta: > >> > >>> On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 15:30 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> 2009-08-02 22:14 keltezéssel, Lubos Lunak írta: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> The actual problems have *nothing* to do with the default desktop. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> They *do*. We keep sending our largest user base a signal that there are > >>>>> others that are considered more important for openSUSE. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> My KDE fanatic friends reaction was to jump ship, when GNOME was pushed > >>>> in front and KDE back. They are now Kubuntu, Mandriva and one > >>>> adventurous went to PCBSD. I stayed with SuSE, as I use it from v4.3 and > >>>> > >>>> > >>> My imaginary friends decided to jump ship when they read your email so > >>> we should go with pre-selected GNOME from now on. > >>> > >>> > >> These are real guys from my University and workplace. Do you want names > >> and e-mail addresses? Beware, some only speak Hungarian :-) Completely > >> off-topic: I just learned, that the PCBSD guy switched to Frugalware ( > >> http://frugalware.org/ ) :-) > >> > > And I'm sure we would have retained them if we went ahead with this > > feature request since they don't seem to be jumping from distro to > > distro at all... > > > It was just an illustration, that I keep track of these guys. The rest > went and stayed with Kubuntu, where KDE is promoted heavily. Sorry, let me see if I understand you correctly; You paint yourself a picture of people moving from distro to distro just to keep track of them. What happens next with those people? And what happens with the people that stayed with a distro that was heavily promoted? And what would happen with all of them if this feature request was approved? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Peter Czanik 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

2009-08-02 22:14 keltezéssel, Lubos Lunak írta: > On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: > >> The actual problems have *nothing* to do with the default desktop. >> > They *do*. We keep sending our largest user base a signal that there are > others that are considered more important for openSUSE. > My KDE fanatic friends reaction was to jump ship, when GNOME was pushed in front and KDE back. They are now Kubuntu, Mandriva and one adventurous went to PCBSD. I stayed with SuSE, as I use it from v4.3 and switch desktops regularly (now mostly with XFCE, as I work with relatively slow machines). My personal conspiration theory is, that SLES/SLED defaulted to GNOME because of US business users, and Novell wanted to give wider testing to openSUSE GNOME by pushing back KDE under the cover of political correctness. Which of course brought more harm than good, but easy to defend in the name of "free choice". The rest of the components have a reasonable default (MTA, text editor, etc.), which can easily be changed, if someone has different need than the majority of the users (like I use sendmail, joe, thunderbird, etc.). The same way the radio button for KDE should be pre selected, which represents the majority of openSUSE users. Bye, CzP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] some numbers
by Stephan Kulow 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

Hi, As some people discuss 11.0 numbers, I would like to share some numbers about 11.1 users. So I queried the download.o.o logs for the last 3 days (friday to sunday) to see what 11.1 repos are refreshed. Please note that if you run the update applet and haven't set the repo to autorefresh=no, it will see a hit in the log files, so this is fairly uptodate. I wanted to do it for a longer period to update the "Community Repos" list, but that will take a while, so I wanted to share what I have. These are uniqe IPs refreshing the 11.1 repo of listed projects. The check in front of the number says if it's in the current list of community repos, I think there is a bias for those. [x] 33076 mozilla [x] 25857 OpenOffice.org:/STABLE [x] 18994 KDE:/Community [x] 17540 Emulators:/Wine [x] 16417 games [x] 14765 KDE:/Backports [ ] 13629 KDE:/KDE4:/Factory:/Desktop [ ] 12374 devel:/tools:/building [ ] 11952 KDE:/42 [x] 11905 X11:/Compiz [x] 10317 drivers:/webcam [x] 10155 Virtualization:/VirtualBox [x] 10066 GNOME:/Community [x] 8937 GNOME:/STABLE [x] 8675 server:/database [x] 7479 server:/php [ ] 7302 KDE:/Qt [x] 6021 Mono:/Community [x] 4877 X11:/xfce [x] 4468 server:/mail I leave any interpretion up to the interested reader. Their nature is too fragile to base any kind of argument on them. I hope I didn't make any big mistakes in getting them. Oh: in the same 3 days 114393 IPs refreshed the 11.1 update repo - in case you want to calculate percentages. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] openFATE feature #306967 , my KDE summary
by Ralph Jones 02 Aug '09

02 Aug '09

As a longtime KDE user, and using SuSE/openSuse for more years than I can remember, I have only one thing to say about this debate... Hands down... This is the Dumbest issue I've seen debated by the opensuse community. And quite frankly I'm tired of getting notifications on my BB every few minutes on the topic. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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