[opensuse-project] openFATE feature #306967 , my KDE summary
The original thread has grown quite a lot over the weekend, 150+ mails, and also parts of it is rubbish (like suggesting that by default both KDE and GNOME are installed, which somehow magically solves the problem of the default selection), so I suppose it will be a pain to process for those reading it only now after the weekend. Therefore I'd like to present an attempt at a summary of the KDE view of the issue. As interpreted by me, of course, since different people still have slightly different positions, but I hope it at least gives an overview to those who do not want to dig in the whole thread. It might be useful if somebody did the same for the GNOME side (and maybe 3rd party, if considered useful too). So: The openFATE request says "make KDE the default desktop" and it doesn't request anything else. It doesn't request anything happening with GNOME, in fact it explicitly mentions that it should remain supported as a choice. It can be interpreted in slightly different ways, my personal interpretation is that this can be achieved by just preselecting KDE in the installation dialog, nothing more. I consider it to be the minimum acceptable for the request and at the same time I believe it can bring the benefits described. An important point that many people here fail to realize that this is not asking for granting a special priviledge to KDE. In fact, it is asking for removing a special priviledge that makes many in the KDE community feel that KDE is treated unequally in openSUSE. In all other cases, when there is a clear preference, it is selected as a default, sometimes not even offering the user an easy choice. In this case, however, while KDE is the clear choice in the openSUSE community, it is not treated the same like in other cases. Instead, GNOME is given a priviledge that a preference must be explicitly expressed here, and this priviledge, to my knowledge, is not given to any other openSUSE component. No other non-default browser, mailer, shell, filesystem, etc. has this luxury. This is interpreted by the KDE community as a message from openSUSE that it values GNOME more, that GNOME is forcibly pushed into openSUSE and that KDE is not equally welcome in openSUSE. The openFATE request, in practice, asks for removing this GNOME priviledge and fair treating of all openSUSE components. This should also make it obvious that the current situation is not considered correct. Since now openSUSE positions itself as an open community distribution, refusing this openFATE request would also be an action that would further stress the perception that the KDE community is not as welcome in openSUSE as the GNOME community and that openSUSE can again choose to hurt the KDE majority despite the obvious preference. Therefore, just as there is the risk that aknowledging KDE's position in openSUSE by accepting the openFATE request would have a negative impact on the GNOME community, there is also the risk that continuing to treat GNOME specially in openSUSE would have a negative impact on the larger KDE community, already treated negatively. For similar reasons I believe that the pros/cons analysis in the original thread is partially incorrect, as it assumes that the current situation is not problematic and keeping the status quo does not cause any harm, or that resolving the situation requires removing choices. And yes, I believe that just changing the radio button would be a sufficient message from openSUSE that KDE is not considered less important than GNOME, likely resulting in increased KDE interest and involvement with openSUSE that could even lead to openSUSE becoming an outstanding KDE distribution, without having to negatively affect GNOME in the process. So, once again, the openFATE request is not about granting KDE any special advantage, nor it requests doing anything with GNOME other than removing this advantage that is considered unjust. It is about signalling the KDE community that they are not treated as 2nd class citizens in openSUSE, which would prevent further alienating of the KDE community and allow increase KDE involvement in openSUSE, currently hampered by the perception that this is not as welcome as GNOME involvement. And while it is considered that focusing openSUSE more on KDE would bring openSUSE more advantages, it is not necessary for KDE, nor any removal of choice of GNOME in openSUSE. This is my interpretation of the openFATE request and the position of the KDE community on this issue and what would be the minimum acceptable to make them actually feel welcome also by openSUSE acts and not just words. As I said, different people have slightly different views, so there are certainly people who have stronger views on this or would disagree with me somewhere (in fact, my own personal opinion here is not exactly in line with this, so am I not just pushing my personal agenda). I however hope this gives an overview and explains some things that many people seem to misunderstand. If you want to have a complete view, of course, enjoy reading the whole thread. In the worst case I've at least saved you reading my mails there :). PS: For those who still don't undestand how the current situation can be considered unfair, an attempt at an analogy: There is an art gallery, showing and selling pictures of two artists. One of them is considerably more popular than the other, thus clearly the gallery benefits more from this artist. Yet the gallery pays both of them the same. That is maybe equal, but it is very unfair. In addition to that, it is also demotivating - the more popular artist has no reason keep doing well or may try to go elsewhere, and the less popular artist does not have a very big motivation to try harder. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
This issue is taking too much time and creating too much heat and too little light. Can I suggest a neutral proposal: 1) Desktop selection is split into 2 lists, the popular and the "advanced". 2) The most popular desktop is selected by default, so the naïve will get an easy to use installation. 3) "Popular" & "most popular" are determined by survey, conducted a short time before release of a distribution. It's not possible we're all going to agree on an answer, so the only solution is to agree a neutral mechanism for deciding an answer. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, Le lundi 03 août 2009, à 01:09 +0200, Lubos Lunak a écrit :
The original thread has grown quite a lot over the weekend, 150+ mails, and also parts of it is rubbish (like suggesting that by default both KDE and GNOME are installed, which somehow magically solves the problem of the default selection), so I suppose it will be a pain to process for those reading it only now after the weekend. Therefore I'd like to present an attempt at a summary of the KDE view of the issue. As interpreted by me, of course, since different people still have slightly different positions, but I hope it at least gives an overview to those who do not want to dig in the whole thread. It might be useful if somebody did the same for the GNOME side (and maybe 3rd party, if considered useful too). So:
I read the whole thread (I think), and didn't want to reply because I don't feel it's useful to just add more comments that will then get debated again and again... (And there are a few sentences here and there about GNOME that I strongly feel I should have commented, fwiw) My issue is that most people in this thread are biased (that's fine) and do not try to understand the point of view from other people. The latter is not fine since it's what makes this thread loop. At some point, people should just say "fine, let's agree that we disagree" instead of stating the same point of view one more time ;-) I won't write a GNOME summary because I don't know what it would be. Only a few people from the GNOME team replied (with slightly different opinions, I think) and several people didn't bother replying when the thread started going nowhere. Also if the discussion has to be polarized, it should be in a "for this feature"/"against this feature" way, not GNOME/KDE -- it makes no sense to discuss it this way, unless we want to split our community. Again, I'll point out that what should be discussed first is not if KDE should be the default, but if we want a default, and if yes, how the default should be expressed (pre-selected radio button, first item in the list, or even removal of the choice during the installer steps, etc.). The question of what the default should be is orthogonal to this one. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Heya, I hope this gets the discussion cooled down and focused a bit more... Am Montag, 3. August 2009 09:41:17 schrieb Vincent Untz:
I read the whole thread (I think), and didn't want to reply because I don't feel it's useful to just add more comments that will then get debated again and again... (And there are a few sentences here and there about GNOME that I strongly feel I should have commented, fwiw)
This stuff creeps up everytime both are mentioned in one sentence, there sure are a lot of questionable kde views as well in there, not replying to these helps best.
My issue is that most people in this thread are biased (that's fine) and do not try to understand the point of view from other people. The latter is not fine since it's what makes this thread loop. At some point, people should just say "fine, let's agree that we disagree" instead of stating the same point of view one more time ;-)
I won't write a GNOME summary because I don't know what it would be. Only a few people from the GNOME team replied (with slightly different opinions, I think) and several people didn't bother replying when the thread started going nowhere. Also if the discussion has to be polarized, it should be in a "for this feature"/"against this feature" way, not GNOME/KDE -- it makes no sense to discuss it this way, unless we want to split our community.
Yes, I as KDE users know happy GNOME users and I'd not dare converting them, except some snippy remarks we throw at each other =)
Again, I'll point out that what should be discussed first is not if KDE should be the default, but if we want a default, and if yes, how the default should be expressed (pre-selected radio button, first item in the list, or even removal of the choice during the installer steps, etc.). The question of what the default should be is orthogonal to this one.
But you do know that it will come right up afterwards, eh? Anyways, I think the reasons for a default selected option are valid, we are the only distribution interrupting the user here, new users can't decide on what's provided. Screenshots won't help as well, they will just look different, and writing longer text about the different options sure would be nice, but I don't know how to explain differences between GNOME and KDE to a user that only knows windows, as both have their email application, file browser, etc... The subtle differences are hard to explain, but make everybody who knows them toggle their selection of choice right away. That's why the selection dialog should stick around, it's a good starting point, most people have their personal preference already and we should not skip asking them for it, selecting the main preference with schemes is not very intuitive to begin from. The text about the choice could be rephrased that opensuse values choice, respects everybodies preferences and invite new users to try out the different environments so they don't have to rely on default decissions made for them, which might not meet their personal taste. This of course is true for everything included in openSUSE, people are free to dislike their default mail application, file manager, games, httpd etc and replace them =) Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Karsten König a écrit :
The text about the choice could be rephrased that opensuse values choice, respects everybodies preferences and invite new users to try out the different environments so they don't have to rely on default decissions made for them, which might not meet their personal taste.
could it be possible to enhance YaST to offer the very same screen we see at install? That is, may be an option in YaST / software "Desktop choice", with the same screen showing kde, gnome,... with no preselected option :-), but allowing selecting several options right now it's not so easy, presets giving many difficult choices jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le lundi 03 août 2009, à 10:30 +0200, Karsten König a écrit :
Am Montag, 3. August 2009 09:41:17 schrieb Vincent Untz:
Again, I'll point out that what should be discussed first is not if KDE should be the default, but if we want a default, and if yes, how the default should be expressed (pre-selected radio button, first item in the list, or even removal of the choice during the installer steps, etc.). The question of what the default should be is orthogonal to this one.
But you do know that it will come right up afterwards, eh?
Yes. But it's much easier to discuss this afterwards. Right now, we have people who say or think "we should have a default and it should be X" (where X can be GNOME or KDE) and others with the "we shouldn't have a default" opinion. And the latter people are seen as pushing GNOME because the thread has been going in a GNOME vs KDE direction... I'm just trying to remove the GNOME vs KDE topic (at least for now) to have less emotions in the debate... I'm proposing a method, if people don't think it's a good idea, then fine :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I would support either selecting a default or presenting enough information for the naïve user (read Windows user) to make a selection quickly. A list of desktop names and/or screenshots is not enough information. Given the heat in this debate I dont think it likely any agreement could be reached quickly on a short piece of text for each desktop which highlights the benefits & disadvantages. So that leaves a default as the only useful option. Anything which makes clear what has been selected, and text that says there's a default selected, and why it's been selected, works for me. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, Il giorno lun, 03/08/2009 alle 01.09 +0200, Lubos Lunak ha scritto:
The openFATE request says "make KDE the default desktop" and it doesn't request anything else. It doesn't request anything happening with GNOME, in fact it explicitly mentions that it should remain supported as a choice. It can be interpreted in slightly different ways, my personal interpretation is that this can be achieved by just preselecting KDE in the installation dialog, nothing more. I consider it to be the minimum acceptable for the request and at the same time I believe it can bring the benefits described.
I would say everyone agrees with the idea that preselecting the checkbox would not make, formally, any difference. I am personally more worried by how this can be used in marketing and in discussions about openSUSE. For example, I don't think it is a good idea to market openSUSE, as someone suggested, as a "KDE-centric distribution". It would maybe increase somewhat users on the KDE side, but it would also damage GNOME, quite clearly.
An important point that many people here fail to realize that this is not asking for granting a special priviledge to KDE. In fact, it is asking for removing a special priviledge that makes many in the KDE community feel that KDE is treated unequally in openSUSE. In all other cases, when there is a clear preference, it is selected as a default, sometimes not even offering the user an easy choice. In this case, however, while KDE is the clear choice in the openSUSE community, it is not treated the same like in other cases. Instead, GNOME is given a priviledge that a preference must be explicitly expressed here, and this priviledge, to my knowledge, is not given to any other openSUSE component. No other non-default browser, mailer, shell, filesystem, etc. has this luxury. This is interpreted by the KDE community as a message from openSUSE that it values GNOME more, that GNOME is forcibly pushed into openSUSE and that KDE is not equally welcome in openSUSE. The openFATE request, in practice, asks for removing this GNOME priviledge and fair treating of all openSUSE components.
You are literally stretching it so much it sounds a joke. According to you, not selecting KDE by default is a privilege for GNOME, but selecting KDE by default does not represent a priviledge. It does not make any sense. As it does not make any sense what you write about filesysems, shells and other defaults, which are not chosen as default to my knowledge because of the openSUSE survey, but because they are used by the vast majority of Linux distributions.
This should also make it obvious that the current situation is not considered correct.
What is not correct is to base this proposal on a survey which has no real statistical value. In addition it is also outdated, and based (if I remember right) on the pre-kde4 period. I'm clearly not going to claim GNOME is now more used than KDE, but I would think its share increased again.
Since now openSUSE positions itself as an open community distribution, refusing this openFATE request would also be an action that would further stress the perception that the KDE community is not as welcome in openSUSE as the GNOME community and that openSUSE can again choose to hurt the KDE majority despite the obvious preference. Therefore, just as there is the risk that aknowledging KDE's position in openSUSE by accepting the openFATE request would have a negative impact on the GNOME community, there is also the risk that continuing to treat GNOME specially in openSUSE would have a negative impact on the larger KDE community, already treated negatively.
I asked you evidences about these damages in another reply. We all remember the discussions about making GNOME default pushed by someone at Novell some year ago. I personally was against that. I'm also against making KDE default, for exactly the same reasons. The current situation _works_. OpenSUSE is probably the only distribution with equally clean GNOME and KDE, just use the current situation when marketing openSUSE. Reopening this discussion is trying to bring things back.
For similar reasons I believe that the pros/cons analysis in the original thread is partially incorrect, as it assumes that the current situation is not problematic and keeping the status quo does not cause any harm, or that resolving the situation requires removing choices. And yes, I believe that just changing the radio button would be a sufficient message from openSUSE that KDE is not considered less important than GNOME, likely resulting in increased KDE interest and involvement with openSUSE that could even lead to openSUSE becoming an outstanding KDE distribution, without having to negatively affect GNOME in the process.
I actually don't think openSUSE KDE implementation is considered bad. OpenSUSE popularity is affected by more general problems, and it would be off-topic to explain them here. However it is really more frequent to say to people that openSUSE has a good GNOME implementation, simply because openSUSE is still associated to KDE by many users.
So, once again, the openFATE request is not about granting KDE any special advantage, nor it requests doing anything with GNOME other than removing this advantage that is considered unjust. It is about signalling the KDE community that they are not treated as 2nd class citizens in openSUSE, which would prevent further alienating of the KDE community and allow increase KDE involvement in openSUSE, currently hampered by the perception that this is not as welcome as GNOME involvement. And while it is considered that focusing openSUSE more on KDE would bring openSUSE more advantages, it is not necessary for KDE, nor any removal of choice of GNOME in openSUSE.
This is not about treating KDE users as second class citizens. They are already not treated as such. I have some difficulty to see why contributors are actually blocked now, and can become suddenly more interested by selecting a radio button during the installation. Is there any actual contributor that explicitly said "I do not contribute because of that"? Did anyone actually say it would be more interested in contributing if the default DE were KDE?
This is my interpretation of the openFATE request and the position of the KDE community on this issue and what would be the minimum acceptable to make them actually feel welcome also by openSUSE acts and not just words. As I said, different people have slightly different views, so there are certainly people who have stronger views on this or would disagree with me somewhere (in fact, my own personal opinion here is not exactly in line with this, so am I not just pushing my personal agenda). I however hope this gives an overview and explains some things that many people seem to misunderstand. If you want to have a complete view, of course, enjoy reading the whole thread. In the worst case I've at least saved you reading my mails there :).
Well, the fact you feel the need to summarize the discussion, smooth it to make it more acceptable ("it's not my personal agenda") and write quite a long message on this topic, which is quite unimportant for the future of the distribution speaks by itself.
PS: For those who still don't undestand how the current situation can be considered unfair, an attempt at an analogy: There is an art gallery, showing and selling pictures of two artists. One of them is considerably more popular than the other, thus clearly the gallery benefits more from this artist. Yet the gallery pays both of them the same. That is maybe equal, but it is very unfair. In addition to that, it is also demotivating - the more popular artist has no reason keep doing well or may try to go elsewhere, and the less popular artist does not have a very big motivation to try harder.
The good artist would concentrate on his work, and (going back to openSUSE) try to fix the actual problems that alienated people from KDE (as you claim it happened), like, for example, the mountain of network problems users met in the last two releases (I actually had to help quite some of them to use nm-applet for from GNOME on local forums). And again, the good artist would not spend time by re-opening a discussion done already too many times, and concluded with a neutral decision. If KDE really has to excel, it will do anyway, default or not: the good artist knows also this, and that's part of the reasons why he is good. He does not complain for a checkbox, he just works hard to paint better and improve things. Anyway, good luck. In my book the GNOME guys are the real winners, without spending many words on this thread and on this topic. After all in a few years they had the merit of bringing GNOME from an actual second class citizen, to one of the most polished GNOME around. Now someone is asking to make KDE as default, and claims this will actually, not only not damage, but help the GNOME team, giving them more motivation. It is kind of ridiculous. Really. Bye, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Mandag den 3. august 2009 09:58:07 skrev Alberto Passalacqua:
This is not about treating KDE users as second class citizens. They are already not treated as such. I have some difficulty to see why contributors are actually blocked now, and can become suddenly more interested by selecting a radio button during the installation. Is there any actual contributor that explicitly said "I do not contribute because of that"? Did anyone actually say it would be more interested in contributing if the default DE were KDE?
You were around when Novell threatened to drop KDE from SLE, when they changed the installer to (discretely but clearly) push GNOME, and when they shoved a GTK updater applet in the KDE installation, so you should really know better. These and other ill-considered actions have chased away a lot of KDE users, and made the remaining ones feel like openSUSE might turn against them any minute. And made lots and lots of potential openSUSE KDE users look elsewhere. Adding the preselection would remedy the mistakes of the past in a second - as well as solving all the other problems caused by not having a default. GNOME users wouldn't feel threatened at all, since they know GNOME is the SLED default and hence it's not going anywhere. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
This debate seems to have at least 3 separate ideas all being discussed as one. It may be helped by separating the discussions. They seem to be: 1) What presentation would make installation the easiest for people / keep new users in openSuSE / Linux? 2) Is there a bias in openSuSE / Novell for / against KDE and/or Gnome and how does it affect the behaviour of the development community? 3) How to present openSuSE desktop choice best for marketing? The first discussion can be resolved without heat by simple surveys, particularly of new users & people who tried & stopped using openSuSE. The second is a perennial management issue and will never be resolved. The third depends a bit on the first, and is a question for the marketing team to answer in their marketing strategy. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 10:19 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Mandag den 3. august 2009 09:58:07 skrev Alberto Passalacqua:
This is not about treating KDE users as second class citizens. They are already not treated as such. I have some difficulty to see why contributors are actually blocked now, and can become suddenly more interested by selecting a radio button during the installation. Is there any actual contributor that explicitly said "I do not contribute because of that"? Did anyone actually say it would be more interested in contributing if the default DE were KDE?
You were around when Novell threatened to drop KDE from SLE, when they changed the installer to (discretely but clearly) push GNOME, and when they shoved a GTK updater applet in the KDE installation, so you should really know better.
These and other ill-considered actions have chased away a lot of KDE users, and made the remaining ones feel like openSUSE might turn against them any minute. And made lots and lots of potential openSUSE KDE users look elsewhere.
Adding the preselection would remedy the mistakes of the past in a second - as well as solving all the other problems caused by not having a default.
Whether you are right or wrong about the above, the classic "Two wrongs make a right" [1] does not make for a good argument.
GNOME users wouldn't feel threatened at all, since they know GNOME is the SLED default and hence it's not going anywhere.
Did you ask any GNOME users about this or did you just make it up so that it looks good? And please, don't throw these sort of things around, especially since SLED is not openSUSE. Cheers, Magnus [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_wrongs_make_a_right -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag 03 August 2009 schrieb Martin Schlander:
Mandag den 3. august 2009 09:58:07 skrev Alberto Passalacqua:
This is not about treating KDE users as second class citizens. They are already not treated as such. I have some difficulty to see why contributors are actually blocked now, and can become suddenly more interested by selecting a radio button during the installation. Is there any actual contributor that explicitly said "I do not contribute because of that"? Did anyone actually say it would be more interested in contributing if the default DE were KDE?
You were around when Novell threatened to drop KDE from SLE, when they changed the installer to (discretely but clearly) push GNOME, and when they shoved a GTK updater applet in the KDE installation, so you should really know better.
Let me avoid one mistake here: openSUSE will continue having a GTK updater applet in the KDE desktop if noone writes a KDE updater. The only thing that's different from the past will be, that the decision to go with one or the other backend will be made public, so it's _possible_ for KDE developers to jump in and write a frontend. But if openSUSE decides to have a default desktop, Novell will not magically turn around and devel more KDE software, but it will not "push things down" on openSUSE either. So it has to be clear to everyone argueing pro KDE in the feature and this mailing list, that the KDE experience will only improve when more people contribute to it - not by making it the default. Making either the default does IMO not change the fact in any way. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi Martin, Il giorno lun, 03/08/2009 alle 10.19 +0200, Martin Schlander ha scritto:
You were around when Novell threatened to drop KDE from SLE, when they changed the installer to (discretely but clearly) push GNOME, and when they shoved a GTK updater applet in the KDE installation, so you should really know better.
Yes, I was around then, and it is exactly the reason why I cannot support this decision as well I did not support the decision to push GNOME as default.
These and other ill-considered actions have chased away a lot of KDE users, and made the remaining ones feel like openSUSE might turn against them any minute. And made lots and lots of potential openSUSE KDE users look elsewhere.
I'm still waiting to see an actual evidence that KDE users left just because of the lack of a default. Everyone is avoiding the point.
Adding the preselection would remedy the mistakes of the past in a second - as well as solving all the other problems caused by not having a default.
I don't think it was a mistake to decide not to have a default. It was actually a good idea, to put the two DE's on the same level. What you and other KDE supporters are suggesting is actually a step back. What are the problems caused by the lack of a default? That we have two polished desktops and KDE is feeling the competition? I don't see it as a problem. In addition, someone suggested that preselecting KDE would bring more "focus". I disagree. More focus is obtained at a planning level, when decisions about the distribution are taken, not pre-selecting a checkbox. If this is the first step with the intention to make of openSUSE a KDE distribution only again, just state it clearly, but I don't think it will happen and I don't think it would be the right choice. If the point is really about pre-selecting a checkbox, well, please tell to your KDE friend they need a vacation, because their level of frustration is a bit too high if they really need that to feel more motivated (Sorry for the rough words, but this discussion is really about nothing).
GNOME users wouldn't feel threatened at all, since they know GNOME is the SLED default and hence it's not going anywhere.
This has to be proven. I would say it surely won't motivate the GNOME users and contributors, and I could use exactly the same motivations you used until now to support the choice of KDE. I won't do that simply because I think GNOME users and developers in all this discussion were a bit smarter, staying away from it instead than repeating a discussion we had too many times. Best, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
Administrator -
Alberto Passalacqua -
jdd (kim2) -
Karsten König -
Lubos Lunak -
Magnus Boman -
Martin Schlander -
Stephan Kulow -
Vincent Untz