This is as well my first e-mail to -project, and first of all I want to clarify that I'm just a plain, rather new OpenSUSE user, but a lot has been said and I just wanted to add a couple of concepts, if I may. I'm also not sure if something of what I say here was already proposed, I apologize in that case. 1.- As a new user, one of the things that caused me a very good first impression two weeks ago when I installed OpenSUSE was the fact that both desktops were available, as well as the option for KDE 3.5, which still has many fans who dislike KDE 4. This first impression was given by the fact that I come from a distro that not only defaults to KDE, but has completely removed support for it (Slackware). The points is that a really interested user would probably try both of them. 2.- To avoid the conflict about what is listed first, couldn't the desktop selection screen be modified to show the two primary options aligned horizontally instead of vertically? I understand that from a design point of view that could trigger a conflict about which should go right and which should go left, because there would be the issue of where do the eyes go first, but I think it might help to put both on the same level, meaning, eliminating the possibility of having somebody assuming one is better than the other because it is listed on top. Regards, Juan On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy wrote:

Sent from Kevin Yeaux's mobile device.

On Aug 3, 2009, at 5:19 PM, Charles Kerr wrote:

...

This is my first post to -project, so before I dive in, a quick introduction: I wrote and maintain the Qt /and/ GTK+ versions of Transmission, and switch Dekstops every few weeks.  I sympathise with both sides -- as both a user and a developer -- and have been reading this thread with interest.

I think two unchecked radiobuttons are both fair, defensible ideas. I'm sure everyone can see why GNOME people would prefer GNOME to go first. I'm sure everyone can see why KDE people would prefer KDE to go first. Jean's Belgian solution seems like a great compromise suggestion to me. Some GNOME users' (such as Jim's) concession saying "put KDE at the top" seems like an earnest attempt to keep the peace, and to keep balance.

Lubos and a couple of others keep slapping down those suggestions based on reasoning that seems shaky to me.  The argument is that users don't have to choose bash vs zsh, or emacs vs vim, and so on; therefore, making users choose between KDE and GNOME is inherently biased to GNOME. But that's apples and oranges -- choosing a Desktop also chooses a raft of default applications, such as (say) KTorrent or Monsoon.  That's a *huge* choice compared to a shell or MUA.  They're not even in the same ballpark.

First off, welcome Charles! I agree, as a GNOME user who doesn't want to see a desktop selected by default, your comments are spot on.

I don't, and I think most people here don't care which desktop is first. In fact, the current setup was an attempt to make the selection fair (G before K, so GNOME before KDE). This was fair to me - after all, I work in politics, and at least in the area I live in I've never seen a ballot where the candidates weren't listed in alphebetic order. I don't think anyone accuses openSUSE of supporting GNOME because it's on top, just as no one I know accused the board of elections of supporting John McCain because his name was above Barack Obama's on the ballot. If someone has a problem with that reasoning, they should go talk to the alphabet.

And on your second point, thanks for bringing up that when we choose a desktop, you're not just choosing a UI for selecting applications. You're choosing a suite of apps that manage your computing life. The main reason I use GNOME is because of Banshee, F-Spot, Tomboy, Beagle, and other apps that are IMHO better than what you get on any other OS, including Win7 or OS X. Yes, I could install and run those in KDE, but then they don't look right or integrate as well with the desktop. So this is a bigger decision than what email program you want to use, this is basically what type of complete experiance do you want from openSUSE, the one GNOME gives you or the one KDE gives you? -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy openSUSE Project Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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Le mardi 04 août 2009, à 10:20 +0200, Martin Schlander a écrit :

And let me add, you do not just select the software to install - you also select what level of community support you're going to have available to you - in terms of online help, packages, howtos etc.

I'm sorry, I tried really hard not to reply, but I'm tired of seeing statements like this one. Here, you're implying that GNOME is not well supported (or at least, not as well as KDE from a few orders of magnitude), and really, you're hurting feelings here. Hopefully, this was not your intention and you'll be more careful in the future. (and I don't want to pick on you specifically: there were other statements with similar results in this thread) This is just an example of what the GNOME community lives with in openSUSE, so we do have a thick skin. But it's still harming the community when you say this; and I'm sure we lost people because of this. That doesn't help your original message. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Sent from Kevin Yeaux's mobile device. On Aug 4, 2009, at 5:58 AM, Druid wrote:

In a moment of Opensuse history where Gnome was abandoned in Opensuse we were practically forced to have gnome, and the Gnome developers wouldnt even fix the bugs in Opensuse (and this would cause problems even for non Gnome users using GTK apps).

I've only been involved with the community since 2007, but I've been a SUSE user since 2003, and we have NEVER been forced to use GNOME, ever. In fact, it wasn't even an option until 10.0 or 10.1 (without digging around in the Software Selection options)

And to complete that, Novell announced the drop of KDE from enterprise products and "change of focus" to gnome.

OK, but that's the enterprise software. That's completely different from what we do here.

Sum that up to the fact that SUSE has been always a KDE distro (no matter how much the Novel "we are neutral propaganda" bullshit says, because of the ex-Ximian gnome fanboys in Novell), and you will see why KDE today is second class today.

This really gets me angry. Please tell us, in what way is KDE a second- class citizen? How? We have two full supported desktops, what you want to do is make GNOME a REAL second-class citizen.

Opensuse needs a default select, its absolutely clear that, and the default has to be KDE, and there is absolutely no sense to be any other.

As usual, the Gnome people are trying to twist the facts so they look like the abused minority...

...

This is just an example of what the GNOME community lives with in openSUSE, so we do have a thick skin. But it's still harming the community when you say this; and I'm sure we lost people because of this.

I am sure we lose users when we dont have a default, and we did when Novell annouced to drop KDE (even if we numerous KDE developers on board),

That was for enterprise software only, not the consumer product we make here! -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy openSUSE Project Member

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On Tue, 4 Aug 2009, Druid wrote:

Decisions for enterprise affects Opensuse, as Opensuse is the base for the enterprise releases. For example, if JFS is not available in the enterprise releases, chances are it wont be available in Opensuse either.

Well, that is the perfect counter example. ;-) JFS will never ever enter SUSE Linux Enterprise (again), yet it is available on openSUSE. Or take ext4, where we made the conscious decision not to push this with SUSE Linux Enterprise Server, yet it is the default on openSUSE right now. openSUSE is one thing, SUSE Linux Enterprise is another. The two are certainly related, but the way decisions are being made for the two should be quite different, and is. openSUSE decisions are made by the openSUSE community (which includes a number of Novell employees like AJ, Michl or myself) and executed by the openSUSE community (which again includes a number of us paid by Novell).

It affects all the users the way I explained: some software or libraries maintained in gnome side would be buggy and affect people using the gtk software even if they arent gnome users.

I am regularily using both the GNOME and KDE sides of the house, both as desktop environment and specific applications, and will claim that both are pretty comparable on many accounts. And what you wrote above can just be mirrored to KDE and qt. Been there, done that, filed my share of bugs (both ways). Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management F +49(911)74053-483 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances GF Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 8. August 2009 22:54:05 schrieb Gerald Pfeifer:

On Tue, 4 Aug 2009, Druid wrote:

...

Decisions for enterprise affects Opensuse, as Opensuse is the base for the enterprise releases. For example, if JFS is not available in the enterprise releases, chances are it wont be available in Opensuse either.

Well, that is the perfect counter example. ;-) JFS will never ever enter SUSE Linux Enterprise (again), yet it is available on openSUSE. Or take ext4, where we made the conscious decision not to push this with SUSE Linux Enterprise Server, yet it is the default on openSUSE right now.

Does openSUSE not always precede SLE since the latter is based on a release of the former? If I remember correctly I have read emails about package x or feature y being being pushed into openSUSE release z because that one was the one that was going to be used for SLE.

openSUSE is one thing, SUSE Linux Enterprise is another. The two are certainly related, but the way decisions are being made for the two should be quite different, and is.

Yes, but no. :) The decision process, in regard to which people or committees are involved might differ, and yet even in that respect they are related since some people work on both. However they should certainly not differ in terms of the decision process being one of discussing objective arguments. So if the question is the same, the same arguments should be considered. IMHO is is not true that most people, be it inside the openSUSE community or outside, make a clear distinction between what is decided for SLE or openSUSE. Novell is the one behind both, a bit less for openSUSE, but nevertheless it "owns" the positions that decide in the end. It would be stupid if Novell's upper management would not place people that support their vision and opinion on the important positions of its business and SLE as well as openSUSE are Novell's business. It's absolutely normal that whoever is in charge of most resources has the biggest influence. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 10. August 2009 10:58:30 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:

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Yes, but no. :) The decision process, in regard to which people or committees are involved might differ, and yet even in that respect they are related since some people work on both. However they should certainly not differ in terms of the decision process being one of discussing objective arguments. So if the question is the same, the same arguments should be considered.

They are related and I talk with the SLE guys when making decisions. The differences that influence decision making include: * different type of users and markets * different release cycles * different level of support

So, this leads to different answers. As Gerald said, look at ext4 (default for openSUSE 11.2, not pushed for SUSE Linux Enterprise Server), JFS (available in openSUSE but not at all in SUSE Linux Enterprise Server 11).

Which is why I only stated that the same arguments should be considered, this does not mean that the answers will be the same. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

Le mardi 04 août 2009, à 07:58 -0300, Druid a écrit :

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Also, you guys should stop the FUD of "oh we dont need default" (you know it needs and you would accept in a heartbeat if it was gnome), "opensuse will drop gnome", "you want us to live as the 2nd more important desktop in Opensuse" (you are, accept it), and the other drama lines we have been reading in this list. And the must funny: "kde is not the largest Opensuse user base, maybe" (proving that you guys learned a lot about FUD eh)

(replying to this part of the mail only, but I could have quoted any other part and replied the same thing)

Please read again my mail (or any of the 2 or 3 other mails I sent to this thread, btw) and tell me where I said any of this.

I've said "you gnome guys replying in this thread". I havent said "Vincent Untz guy specifically in this thread". There is a difference. Regards Márcio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Well, my two cents, even if it is sort of OT. OpenSUSE success depends on other, a lot more important factors than pre-selecting a button or deciding the order of the DE's. OpenSUSE loses users not because we do not have a default. That is being simply blind: it means someone is not seeing what went on in these years, and brings the attention to the wrong problem. We lose users because, to make some example: - openSUSE released with alternating quality too often (read .1 release absolutely broken) - bugs are not timely fixed or not fixed at all, even when reports contain references to fixes sometime, and the responsibility of this is discharged on the community, for whatever reason ("Fix it" or "do it" is becoming an abused motto) - there are rough relationships between contributors and developers. See bugzilla, where stubborness is very abundant also on simple topics. - there are inconsistent statements and no focus. With this I mean focus on what openSUSE, as a whole, wants to be, and not focus on a particular environment. That discussion was started by you and Joe, and abandoned suddenly because "not so important". Another message of inconsistency, which just tires contributors and pushes them elsewhere. Whatever will be the decision about the desktop default, it will have little or no influence on openSUSE success, simply because the statements at its root are unfounded. One result was already obtained though: it showed how divided this community is, and on a topic someone gave for dead, as it should be, long ago. Best, A. Il giorno mar, 04/08/2009 alle 15.42 +0200, Andreas Jaeger ha scritto:

But this road does not bring us anything - let's get back to make openSUSE successfull!

Andreas

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...

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On 8/4/2009 at 05:12 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

It's a sheer matter of numbers. I simply claim that KDE users greatly outnumbering GNOME users (for experienced, long-time SUSE power users and enthusiasts this might be even more true btw.) will likely affect the overall experience of a new user using our distro.

And what data do you have to back that up? I have found that there are a lot of KDE users in Europe (but not all) and a lot of gnome users in the US (but not all). I just don't think we can make blanket statements without stats to back it up. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

That survey, as the voting have _no_ statistical value, sorry. They support KDE, and that's probably right. Using them to take decision is, to be fair, risky though. Il giorno mar, 04/08/2009 alle 15.36 +0100, Matt Gray ha scritto:

opensuse user survey last year.

results matched by support for the openfate request that prompted this discussion.

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Moin, uhh, that's even challenging to follow the discussion but all arguments are on the table and the discussion should stop now as it won't go anywhere. As the feature raises so much attention we need to address it. I'll talk through the topic with the openSUSE Board and will make a decision till mid of August as suggested in the initial email. Let's stay focused on our great environment we have like the openSUSE distribution, opening of Factory, openSUSE Build Service etc. and grow the community. Best Michael -- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex

Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy wrote:

Sent from Kevin Yeaux's mobile device.

On Aug 4, 2009, at 3:20 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

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And the magnitude of the decision is supposed to be an argument _against_ having a preselected default?

Again, noone's removing any choice, noone's suggesting to hide anything, selecting GNOME wouldn't require any more work than it does now.

Yes. If openSUSE intends to support two desktops equally, then how do you manage that reccommending one over the other to a new user is 'supporting two desktops equally'. Instead of treating GNOME as an equal, integral part of openSUSE, you'd be saying "oh yeah, GNOME's this thing some folks work on, but you'll want KDE (trust me).

...

And let me add, you do not just select the software to install - you also select what level of community support you're going to have available to you - in terms of online help, packages, howtos etc.

Good point - though that really goes to point out that both the KDE and GNOME teams are equally helpful and put out good documentation in addition to the openSUSE docs. Infact, the GNOME Team has done a lot for the openSUSE Project, do you really want to lose their support by demoting their product down to second class?

Overall, there's another decision to be made here. Do we want to select and support one desktop, and dump the other down to being a second-class citizen, or support both and publish a much better tour of each desktop to help users decide? -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy openSUSE Project Member if you want to see a second class citizen look at Kubuntu.

it has the same quality of branding, and the same free ship-it, but everyone knows that ubuntu is far less buggy because that is where cannonical blows the development budget. that is not what is being proposed for suse. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org