August 2009

[opensuse-project] Decision making for the distribution
by Andreas Jaeger 05 Aug '09

05 Aug '09

The whole "KDE Default" discussion raises also the question on how we do make decisions and what is the purpose of openFATE. My take on this is: openSUSE in general uses the technically best solution - and this contains both features and stability - and where that's not feasible, the most popular solution is used. With openFATE, an evaluation of features is done and features get marked as usefull - and then we need to decide which of these many features get implemented. And here voting will … [View More]

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Will Stephenson 04 Aug '09

04 Aug '09

On Monday 03 August 2009 18:34:58 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote: > On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Jim Henderson<hendersj(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > If the KDE "camp" will commit to not pushing to remove the option for > > GNOME (or lower its prominence in the selection screen by moving it to > > "other" or doing anything other than presenting it alongside the KDE > > options - heck, go ahead and list KDE first if it's that important to > > them) down the … [View More]

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Herbert Graeber 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

Am Montag 03 August 2009 23:00:59 schrieb Joe Harmon: > >>>On 8/3/2009 at 02:14 PM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson(a)suse.de> wrote: > > > > So here's a suggestion > > > > 1) Keep the current selection page > > > > 2) KDE first and preselected followed by GNOME and others > > > > 3) KDE will not push at a later date for removing the option for GNOME or > > any > > other environment > > > > Work for you? > … [View More]

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[opensuse-project] openFATE feature #306967 , my KDE summary
by Lubos Lunak 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

The original thread has grown quite a lot over the weekend, 150+ mails, and also parts of it is rubbish (like suggesting that by default both KDE and GNOME are installed, which somehow magically solves the problem of the default selection), so I suppose it will be a pain to process for those reading it only now after the weekend. Therefore I'd like to present an attempt at a summary of the KDE view of the issue. As interpreted by me, of course, since different people still have slightly … [View More]different positions, but I hope it at least gives an overview to those who do not want to dig in the whole thread. It might be useful if somebody did the same for the GNOME side (and maybe 3rd party, if considered useful too). So: The openFATE request says "make KDE the default desktop" and it doesn't request anything else. It doesn't request anything happening with GNOME, in fact it explicitly mentions that it should remain supported as a choice. It can be interpreted in slightly different ways, my personal interpretation is that this can be achieved by just preselecting KDE in the installation dialog, nothing more. I consider it to be the minimum acceptable for the request and at the same time I believe it can bring the benefits described. An important point that many people here fail to realize that this is not asking for granting a special priviledge to KDE. In fact, it is asking for removing a special priviledge that makes many in the KDE community feel that KDE is treated unequally in openSUSE. In all other cases, when there is a clear preference, it is selected as a default, sometimes not even offering the user an easy choice. In this case, however, while KDE is the clear choice in the openSUSE community, it is not treated the same like in other cases. Instead, GNOME is given a priviledge that a preference must be explicitly expressed here, and this priviledge, to my knowledge, is not given to any other openSUSE component. No other non-default browser, mailer, shell, filesystem, etc. has this luxury. This is interpreted by the KDE community as a message from openSUSE that it values GNOME more, that GNOME is forcibly pushed into openSUSE and that KDE is not equally welcome in openSUSE. The openFATE request, in practice, asks for removing this GNOME priviledge and fair treating of all openSUSE components. This should also make it obvious that the current situation is not considered correct. Since now openSUSE positions itself as an open community distribution, refusing this openFATE request would also be an action that would further stress the perception that the KDE community is not as welcome in openSUSE as the GNOME community and that openSUSE can again choose to hurt the KDE majority despite the obvious preference. Therefore, just as there is the risk that aknowledging KDE's position in openSUSE by accepting the openFATE request would have a negative impact on the GNOME community, there is also the risk that continuing to treat GNOME specially in openSUSE would have a negative impact on the larger KDE community, already treated negatively. For similar reasons I believe that the pros/cons analysis in the original thread is partially incorrect, as it assumes that the current situation is not problematic and keeping the status quo does not cause any harm, or that resolving the situation requires removing choices. And yes, I believe that just changing the radio button would be a sufficient message from openSUSE that KDE is not considered less important than GNOME, likely resulting in increased KDE interest and involvement with openSUSE that could even lead to openSUSE becoming an outstanding KDE distribution, without having to negatively affect GNOME in the process. So, once again, the openFATE request is not about granting KDE any special advantage, nor it requests doing anything with GNOME other than removing this advantage that is considered unjust. It is about signalling the KDE community that they are not treated as 2nd class citizens in openSUSE, which would prevent further alienating of the KDE community and allow increase KDE involvement in openSUSE, currently hampered by the perception that this is not as welcome as GNOME involvement. And while it is considered that focusing openSUSE more on KDE would bring openSUSE more advantages, it is not necessary for KDE, nor any removal of choice of GNOME in openSUSE. This is my interpretation of the openFATE request and the position of the KDE community on this issue and what would be the minimum acceptable to make them actually feel welcome also by openSUSE acts and not just words. As I said, different people have slightly different views, so there are certainly people who have stronger views on this or would disagree with me somewhere (in fact, my own personal opinion here is not exactly in line with this, so am I not just pushing my personal agenda). I however hope this gives an overview and explains some things that many people seem to misunderstand. If you want to have a complete view, of course, enjoy reading the whole thread. In the worst case I've at least saved you reading my mails there :). PS: For those who still don't undestand how the current situation can be considered unfair, an attempt at an analogy: There is an art gallery, showing and selling pictures of two artists. One of them is considerably more popular than the other, thus clearly the gallery benefits more from this artist. Yet the gallery pays both of them the same. That is maybe equal, but it is very unfair. In addition to that, it is also demotivating - the more popular artist has no reason keep doing well or may try to go elsewhere, and the less popular artist does not have a very big motivation to try harder. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak(a)suse.cz , l.lunak(a)kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org [View Less]

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Magnus Boman 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 17:17 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote: > 2009-08-03 16:56 keltezéssel, Magnus Boman írta: > > On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 16:32 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote: > > > >> 2009-08-03 16:08 keltezéssel, Magnus Boman írta: > >> > >>> On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 15:30 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> 2009-08-02 22:14 keltezéssel, Lubos Lunak írta: > >>>> > >>&… [View More]

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Peter Czanik 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

2009-08-02 22:14 keltezéssel, Lubos Lunak írta: > On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: > >> The actual problems have *nothing* to do with the default desktop. >> > They *do*. We keep sending our largest user base a signal that there are > others that are considered more important for openSUSE. > My KDE fanatic friends reaction was to jump ship, when GNOME was pushed in front and KDE back. They are now Kubuntu, Mandriva and one … [View More]

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[opensuse-project] some numbers
by Stephan Kulow 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

Hi, As some people discuss 11.0 numbers, I would like to share some numbers about 11.1 users. So I queried the download.o.o logs for the last 3 days (friday to sunday) to see what 11.1 repos are refreshed. Please note that if you run the update applet and haven't set the repo to autorefresh=no, it will see a hit in the log files, so this is fairly uptodate. I wanted to do it for a longer period to update the "Community Repos" list, but that will take a while, so I wanted to share what I have.… [View More]

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Re: [opensuse-project] openFATE feature #306967 , my KDE summary
by Ralph Jones 02 Aug '09

02 Aug '09

As a longtime KDE user, and using SuSE/openSuse for more years than I can remember, I have only one thing to say about this debate... Hands down... This is the Dumbest issue I've seen debated by the opensuse community. And quite frankly I'm tired of getting notifications on my BB every few minutes on the topic. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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