August 2009 - openSUSE Project - openSUSE Mailing Lists

[opensuse-project] openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Michael Loeffler 09 Aug '09

09 Aug '09

There are pretty many pros and cons and even more people with their opinion about the feature [1]I'd like to summarize what has been said in the discussion in the feature itself and during this week's openSUSE project meeting. Unfortunately the only sure thing is whatever decision is taken - it will be wrong for some. This is why, at this time, we have no default - because openSUSE has strong GNOME and KDE implementations, we offer them side-by-side as equals. And we made 2 years ago on opensuse-project the decision that we stay with "no default" desktop. So what do we have so far? - a feature request [1] from one of the KDE e.V. board members - the feature asks to make KDE default. Reason for that, is to make openSUSE more simple for newbies and to make openSUSE the best KDE distribution around - Through the discussion in the feature I'd translate that feature into put the radio button as default to KDE on the desktop selection screen during installation instead of today's status where everybody needs to make a choice between - the highest rated feature in openFATE [2] until today - a majority of people supporting this feature (currently approx. 90% pro, 1% neutral, 9% against) What I clearly see as pro is: - listening to our KDE community we may gain more KDE contributors. But don't forget this feature is also about making openSUSE an outstanding KDE distribution. And for that just voting for a feature is not enough. For becoming an outstanding KDE distribution we need you to contribute - we simplify the installation by one click for 2/3 of our users, according to question no. 11 in our last openSUSE survey [3] made in 11.0 time frame - the GNOME users keep status quo and need to set the radio button as before What I clearly see as con is: - our pretty active GNOME community won't be very happy about it - our strength is to support choice and two major desktops - with the CD you always get a default desktop What might stay doubtful? - Would changing a radio button really drive lots of users and contributors to us? - Would already KDE as a default make us to an outstanding KDE distribution? - Does openSUSE need a default desktop? What I suggest? Due to upcoming feature freeze for openSUSE 11.2 we have only the possibility to default the radio button to KDE. But this is IMO more a diplomatic solution which doesn't help much anybody. We should give the feature one or two more weeks to evolve and need to do the decision for openSUSE 11.2 by mid of August. Some other observations I have with respect about this feature: - inviting people through blogs, web pages, mailing lists or twitter to vote has potential to set the credibility of the voting system at risk as people not involved with openSUSE or not using openSUSE express their thoughts - the feature shows the success of opening up the openSUSE project. Few years ago decisions were made by Novell and nowadays decisions are challenged by our community. - I'm pretty happy about the way the discussion is handled (impartial, no bashing etc.) May wisdom be with us - and may we get in openSUSE the best GNOME and the best KDE desktops! Best M [1] https://features.opensuse.org/306967 [2] https://features.opensuse.org/ [3] http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf -- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex

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[opensuse-project] OpenSUSE Developer Network
by Sascha 'saigkill' Manns 08 Aug '09

08 Aug '09

Hello Mates, today i get an Idea for our Project. We can create an new Project like MSDN (Microsoft Developer Network) specially for OpenSUSE. I thought we can make an DowloadSite (1-Klick) for needed Software. Another Tab includes the API RReferences from KDE4, GNOME and other Stuff. In the Tab Learning we can include some HowTo's for Programming. That's just an thought. Maybe you like it... Sascha P.S.: I've created an Featurerequest: https://features.opensuse.org/307256 -- Sincerely yours Sascha Manns openSUSE Ambassador openSUSE Marketing Team openSUSE Build Service Web: http://saschamanns.gulli.to Project-Blog: http://lizards.opensuse.org/author/saigkill Private-Blog: http://saschasbacktrace.blogspot.com

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[opensuse-project] Default desktop: the Belgian solution
by Jean Cayron 08 Aug '09

08 Aug '09

In Belgium we have often this kind of endless discussions but not about desktops but about languages. As you know there are three officials languages (Dutch, French and German) and amongst them two main ones (Dutch and French). A bit like our desktop, Xfce being the German language ;-) Some National Institutions have their name in two languages like the Opera in Brussels "La Monnaie" (FR) or "De Munt" (NL). To make everyone happy they've decided for the marketing and other public communications to use one year the naming "De Munt - La Monnaie" and the one after "La Monnaie - De Munt" and so on for years. As some KDE users feel unhappy that the Gnome desktop appears first on the list during the installation let me propose this: - For 11.2 lets place KDE first - For 11.3 lets place Gnome first - For 12.0 lets place KDE first and so on... And if another Desktop (Moblin, Xfce?) becomes mainstream, let see later. Of course, none of them should be preselected. My experience with firends is that if they don't know, they click on the first one. Hope that it can help positively to put an end to this never ending discussion. Regards to all KDE, Gnome and other openSUSE lovers, Djan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Milestone 5 Released...?
by Satoru Matsumoto 07 Aug '09

07 Aug '09

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 It seems openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 5 is released[1] as scheduled, but there is no announcement for that. Are there any descriptions or notices for this release ? [1] http://software.opensuse.org/developer Best, - -- _/_/ Satoru Matsumoto - openSUSE Member - Japan _/_/ _/_/ Marketing/Weekly News/openFATE Screening Team _/_/ _/_/ mail: helios_reds_at_gmx.net / irc: HeliosReds _/_/ _/_/ http://blog.geeko.jp/author/heliosreds _/_/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkp8TtEACgkQXnHIfHE6+z1EqwCfd3xIb+6ZCu6OIHUxOmkQI8jG yrcAn3Z2Jrg0GQttJi2p5wvIFVlfGfNM =Wx6U -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] What you vote, and what you DON'T vote on - openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Christian Jäger 07 Aug '09

07 Aug '09

Hello, please excuse me, but as a political scientist I have to butt in here and say my piece. ;-) The problem here is a misapprehension of what a majority vote can and can not do. The question at hand (default desktop) is very comparable to a conflict between two rivaling ethnicities living in the same country. As democratic decision-making does and should not take into account ethnicity, there will always be core-issues that _must_remain_unresolved_ if such a country is to exist for any length of time. These are issues which directly correlate to contradicting interests of one or the other ethnic community (i.e. zero-sum games). If one of the ethnic communities (as it usually is the case) is bigger than the other one it could easily decide such critical issues continuously to their advantage and to the disadvantage of the smaller community. A majority decision here would not be the result of a decision-making process or bargaining, which are prerequisite to any meaningful democratic decision, but would simply represent the bigger party pushing its interests at the expense of the smaller party, which would be detrimental to the system as a whole. Here purely democratric decision-making fails. A majority vote will in the end result in disintegrating the country. Majority decisions are NOT a fair solution to solve problems involving two persistent interest groups. The belief that voting is a fair solution to EVERY problem is simply wrong; the theory of democracy suggests otherwise. Reliance on majority votes alone is 'not democratic' in our modern understanding of the word because when we talk about democracy we don't mean majority vote but a system which in addition to that also respects the right of the individual and the interests of minorities. This is why our political systems are NOT democracies but 'liberal democracies' (liberalism is a necessary component that prevents the abuse of majority influence). Coming back to my analogy of two ethnicities living in the same country, there are two ways such a situation can go: a) a split of the country, which brings a whole new set of problems b) ways of decision making other than majority-based are set in place and unresolvable questions (=zero-sum games) are made a taboo These are also the options for the opensuse-distribution, translating into: a) discontinue the DVD-releases and only put out Live-CDs, thus avoiding the issue (a mild kind of split, as I don't think anybody would really want 'KopenSUSE' and 'GopenSUSE'...) b) treat both communities equally by NOT defaulting to a specific desktop (the zero-sum game is made a taboo) and there is always c) declare it someone else's problem (as in 'let Andreas decide' ;)) 'c)' is not really an option because the new decision maker be it a maintainer of whoever - would face the same problems and consequences. But with a vote on a) or b) I think we would have it down to two meaningful, non-destructive options which don't align with the borders of the two 'camps'. a) would mean KDE fans get their petty little victory, as they don't have to see GNOME at the top of that alphabetic list anymore. For GNOME fans nothing would change. The decision would go at the expense of those serious users who actually NEED the DVDs. b) would mean everyone has to either accept that the openSUSE community as a whole is more important than their feelings about a specific desktop, or they'd have to adjust their perception as to view the Live-CD releases as the main form of distro-release. Perhaps we could make that easier for them by hiding the DVD download-option somewhere unobtrusive. These are IMHO the only options that could realistically be voted upon without making the vote a zero-sum game - because the options to decide on don't represent the persistent interests of the interest groups that decide on it (option A: KDE, option B: GNOME). Again, you CAN'T make default desktop choice a majority vote and call it fair. I am frankly quite amazed by the nonchalance with which a KDE-team member has brought up this explosive issue on the very questionable pretext that a default desktop would bring less confusion and attract more developers, with utter disregard to what this aggravating discussion would entail for the community. The correct way to go about it would have been starting a discussion on this ML. Bringing this up topic as a 'feature request' represents a serious abuse of openFATE IMHO and should have been rejected outright. The gains of this whole discussion are close to zero, the damage has already been done and could potentially be serious if the majority of KDE-proponents on the ML continues to push its agenda. I feel sad about it, I would have expected the openSUSE community to behave in a more adult fashion. Greets, Chris Jäger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] User Survey
by Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier 07 Aug '09

07 Aug '09

One thing this KDE discussion brings up is this: It's been a long time since we've had a user survey. The previous survey can be found here: http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf Any suggestions to modify some of the questions, add new ones, get rid of old ones? (i.e., is it relevant or not to ask "why do you use a dual-boot system"?) Please get me suggestions by end of next week (August 7) Typically we do these infrequently after releases, but I think we should probably be doing them at least every 12 months, which means we're soon overdue. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb(a)zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openSUSE on EC2: Any further information?
by Mark V 07 Aug '09

07 Aug '09

Hi, Unfortunately I didn't archive this information, but I am sure I read a meeting minute, in the last few weeks, that indicated someone was looking at getting openSUSE to run on Amazon's EC2.... openFATE only shows a request to include eucalyptus in 11.2 Without reviving the woes of previous false starts, I do have some questions: 1) Is it intended that the current state-of-affairs persist, i.e. only private/3rd-party SLES images are available, or will there be publicly (community) available images of openSUSE? 2) Is there intended to be something like Ubuntu's EC2 beta 'community', e.g. their mail list and launchpad? 3) Are there specific reasons that SLES can run on EC2 but not openSUSE? Anything the community can do to change this? Would appreciate any insights anyone can offer. Mark -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] Draft of Desktop Policy
by Herbert Graeber 06 Aug '09

06 Aug '09

Am Dienstag 04 August 2009 18:40:13 schrieb Joe Harmon: > >>>On 8/4/2009 at 11:33 AM, Matt Gray <mjg(a)see3d.co.uk> wrote: > > > > The new users that we are trying to attract* wouldn't care, they just > > want an option that is as easy as ubuntu manage (read: install because > > they will equate one with the other) > > I would say that they wouldn't know what the selection would give them, not > that they wouldn't care. How do we know which one they would or would not > prefer? In this case to take what the majority of openSUSE users take is a good bet... > Selecting a default is not solving that problem, it is forcing a > choice upon them. Not "forcing", "suggesting" is the better term. Do not overestimate, what fate#306967 is about. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Views from the Weekly News
by Sascha 'saigkill' Manns 05 Aug '09

05 Aug '09

Hello Friends, it is possible to find out, how many Views from the Weekly News exists? -- Sincerely yours Sascha Manns openSUSE Ambassador openSUSE Marketing Team openSUSE Build Service Web: http://saschamanns.gulli.to Project-Blog: http://lizards.opensuse.org/author/saigkill Private-Blog: http://saschasbacktrace.blogspot.com

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Re: [opensuse-project] Draft of Desktop Policy
by Jean Cayron 05 Aug '09

05 Aug '09

I can agree with this proposal with alphatically order and preselecting the most popular. It could also be horizontally presented, even better. The proposition contructive. Making both "preselected" and "orderd by popularity" is too much. The order can also, as I suggested in a mail, change from on to another release, without impacting the preselection. But let make clear how the popularity is determined: would it be by a survey, by statistics on the servers (updates or oss repository download for example, even if it doesn't 100% prove the actual "use" of a desktop as one can install both). 2009/8/4 Andreas Jaeger <aj(a)novell.com> > > Could you answer on the list, please? > Sorry, I thought I did. My Reply All bugged ;-) > > Please explain what you mean with "make clear how it's determined", > > Thanks, > Andreas > -- > Andreas Jaeger, aj(a){novell.com,opensuse.org} > SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) > Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany > GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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