June 2010 - openSUSE Project - openSUSE Mailing Lists

[opensuse-project] Common troubleshooting during an Install Fest
by Manu Gupta 28 Jun '10

28 Jun '10

Dear All, I am moving this from to the project list from marketing list as Bryen suggested Since a lot of people have done openSUSE install fests over here on the list, what were the most common problems faced during installation as this can prepare anyone for an upcoming install fest. -- Regards MANU Here are the replies which I got on that list. I would like more people to add their views 1. buggy dvd!!! I remember 10.1 (or 0?) demo dvd (official) 2 about 3 where buggy, and made the demo fault. Written dvd are also often faulty :-( jdd 2. HI Manu, I have myself organised the install fest and would like to tell you some of the problems we faced: Firstly If you are planning to use a projector make sure that you configure the projector settings well in advance since it usually causes trouble. Secondly,try to distribute some video tutorials for those willing to install on their desktops back home. Also try to cover more than one linux distros.Make sure you do not get into troubles with OS issues with laptops of some vendors . BTW Good luck and do ask for any other help. 3. My experiences are humble on this field. This is the way I've done it: 1. Manpower > provided by PLUG (Portuguese Linux Users Group). 2. Merchandising > is cool to have, can be a pain if it is in low numbers due to demand. Having at least a token for everyone who shows up is good. 3. Place > depending on your audience targets, this is nice. In my case I've hired a public space with very good conditions, Aveiro's Cultural and Congress Center. Which also offered proper conditions (power plugs, ethernet infra-structure, acceses, car parking, localization, etc). 4. Sponsorship > in my case the greatest sponsor was actually SuSE GmbH (2 crates of merchandise), Sun Microsystems provided around 1K of StarOffice 5.1 CD's, Red Hat Inc provided some stickers. Most of this contacts were made using connections with people which worked for us, except for SuSE which I handled personaly because I was SuSE user. Sun Microsystems and Red Hat were contacts made through people we know on those companies which were our clients. 5. Showcase > if you can get a hardware sponsorship which can lend you some equipment for displaying stuff, this is great. Logistics will probably be your great problem. So be prepared to commit at all levels on logistics. That was the strongest barrier we had to endure. This was a nation wide event by the way, and we had from 400 to 500 visitors during the 2 days of the event, and people from all over the place came. nelson. 4. >From my experience: - Wireless not working (IOW, dont know how to connect to a secured enterprise wireless network) - Fingerprint reader not working - There is no "Refresh" menu on right-click on Desktop (yeah they say that) - Where can I download anti-virus software ? - How can I play DVD (Best solution: Install VLC) - There is no Microsoft Word ? Sankar http://psankar.blogspot.com 5. Excellent initiative to be asking this question. I commend you. My guess is that most of the troubleshooting problems will be related to hardware, with prime examples being video and wireless. But many of these problems are resolvable through various solutions, depending on the specific hardware. It would be a good idea if you could gather up as much as you can and have a cd or USB of these drivers, etc. ready on hand to pop into machines at install fests. Also, I recommend that we use the power of community experience here. While the event is something of a marketing event, the questions you are asking are more technical-oriented. Therefore, you will get the best bang for your buck if you ask the community at large to offer up their experiences, via -project mailing list. Especially since not everyone on marketing teams are technical. Good luck and keep us posted on what you learned! Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Marketing Team lead GNOME-A11y Outreach lead 6. Also, use IRC if you have Internet, to help users with questions, and to show how it works :) (but warn ahead of time people in channel that other watching conversation :) -- Regards Rajko, - Show quoted text - 7. InstallFests are not common in europe anymore since maybe 10years. We all here have good access to the internet here and Linux can be installed much easier as 13-15 years ago. The only event here that make a thing thats nearby are the Chemnitzer Linux-Tage. http://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2008/live/praxis/ They call it Praxis Doctor Tux its a kind of help station for problems. I worked many years there and last I was responsible for this station. So maybe I can give u some advise. *First and important point is set information before installation. Dont force them to use a specific distro because u like this distro. Let them choose self be only a indepentant adviser *tell the guests always what u doing and why, involve them in decissions *there was a point here in that discussion "medias are sometimes not readable" thats mostly not the media mostly is the drive guilty. The lenses are smoothy and have problems to read burned medias. If u have one there exists cleaning sets for that problem. But with original medias ur on the better side, Another solution for that problem and not for that problem only is to use network install from an server in the internal network. Thats my first choice because u avoid not only the reading problem its much faster. *remember after fresh installations there exists always updates. Two possibilitys run a server (can be the same tftp from the net install) or run a proxy so that not all packages have to delivered from a far server in the net. *u see I talk about updates, installation means not to give away a fresh installed system it means give away a system with them ur guest can work. So install multimedia codecs and other stuff he needs to! *problems with exotic hardware. Thats true there are some problems with WLAN drivers, graphic card drivers and in the last years that fingerprint reader stuff, as Sankar said. The problem changes every year so that u can not really prepared for it. The only helpful thing here is to offer a registration with the promise that they would be handeled first. So that u know who comes with what devices and u can do researches before the InstallFest so hope that points are helpful br gnokii -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[Fwd: Re: [opensuse-project] Re: Strategy discussion @ forums]
by DenverD 25 Jun '10

25 Jun '10

mistakenly sent to Cristian, only... note: the "you" in mine should be considered as the collective, not any one individual: -------- Original Message -------- Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 22:29:10 +0200 To: Cristian Morales Vega <cmorve69(a)yahoo.es> Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] Re: Strategy discussion @ forums Cristian Morales Vega wrote: > 2010/6/24 DenverD <DenverD(a)texan.dk>: >> WAIT--most of those are NOT worth reading!! but if we want to grow the >> community and increase the size of the group of potential contributors >> then while not worth _reading_ they ARE worth answering. > > And aren't they being answered? How many of them get unanswered? > Anyway, that's your point? We will not find real problems to fix? We > can just help people that with some luck, we hope, someday will > contribute in some way? > > I was asking this so "everybody can judge by itself if it's worth the > effort". To me is not. Sure, if I have to just select between give an > answer to that user or not... lets give him an answer!! But this is a > resource management problem. I can answer to ten users asking "I > installed mkvtoolnix but I don't know how to start it, it doesn't > appears in the menu" or I can patch the mkvtoolnix package to add a > menu entry and talk with upstream so they apply the patch, helping a > hundred users. > Time is limited. Fixing problems we help lots of users. Answering a > question not worth reading in the forum we help a single user. Forum > users, those that someday perhaps will start contributing, will also > go if the distro is full of bugs. We need a balance, and I don't see > anything indicating the current one is wrong. who asked you or any dev to answer questions? i didn't... most of the questions there can be answered by anyone who has been around a year or two (they are easy and redundant), and they are being answered--usually pretty quickly...and the one needing some higher level of technical ability are usually answered dang quickly also.. your help is NOT needed to answer single user questions (imo) the value to everyone on the ML in visiting the fora is (imo) developing a feeling of how the users are getting hammered, or hammering themselves.. things like the decision to make one-clicks keep the repos enabled (as Jim mentioned)...we have several a day needing nothing much more than slimming down what is enabled and then a little zypper work.. maybe you knew that, maybe you don't care...maybe you think the decision was made, good enough, move on...the point is someone should care that the new guy is setup to *fail*: s/he won't read how to use YaST or Zypper if there is a one-click in sight....and, you can bet they WILL accept the default and soon have a dozen or more repos and trouble.. or things like blank/black screens <http://tinyurl.com/36slr7o> how is a new user supposed to cope with that? how might the hackers figure out a way to detect and fail more 'gracefully'? or just, being seen....'wear' a developer/contributor/member "badge" and be seen walking about among the commoners...i do not mean spend hours every day...by the way i really dislike the web side and highly recommend pointing a newsreader at at forums.opensuse.org port 119 and subscribe to any or all of these: opensuse.org.help.applications o.o.h.applications.multimedia o.o.h.hardware o.o.h.install-boot-login o.o.h.network-internet o.o.h.network-internet.wireless avoid (unless you need a laugh/cry) soapbox, chit-chat, games and i don't know.. 10 minutes every two weeks by each would be a *tremendous* increase in presence and visibility....pat a few on the back (i am NOT talking about patting me on the back, and can promise you my ego doesn't need that)...if you see a problem being discussed that you know is nearing a solution, drop some info on that on the crowd.. or, if you run into (as a venomous poster here noted) "misinformation, ignorance and outright lies" and feel gentlemanly you might set the record straight.. i think it could do a world of good for the "community" if the users actually believed they mattered and the hackers cared about them.. may not make any difference, at all--i know this, walk in and spew some that good old RTFM and i'll wish i never tried to bring the groups closer together! well...i have no idea how to grow a community when the 'leadership' is dead set against talking/listening to users. dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Last Survey
by Sascha 'saigkill' Manns 25 Jun '10

25 Jun '10

Hello Mates, two month ago we started an online survey. Is the Survey now closed? Exists any results? -- Sincerely yours Sascha Manns openSUSE Community & Support Agent openSUSE Marketing Team Blog: http://saigkill.wordpress.com Web: http://www.open-slx.de (openSUSE Box Support German) Web: http://www.open-slx.com (openSUSE Box Support English)

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[Fwd: Re: [opensuse-project] Re: Strategy discussion @ forums]
by DenverD 25 Jun '10

25 Jun '10

Cristian Morales Vega wrote: > I'm not going to ask anybody to use the forums from time to > time just to get users that "actually believed they mattered and the > hackers cared about them". Most of the posts I read complaining about > devs being disconnected from user needs are IMHO users that seem to > live in a reality distortion field. ok, i tired and gave up...un-subed from the ML.. decided i should try again, and i've failed again--you folks are a real piece of work, never seen so many inflated egos in one place before...strange.. so, i'll not again question the way things work here, who is most important or how we might arrive a higher level together....instead, i'll just go back now and live in my really distorted field with things like the following to keep me warm at night: "openSUSE is ... a project which lives from contributions not 'feeding customers'. That's why I previously said we need more contributors, no users, no customers, no leechers and no 'audience'." "Right now I think the openSUSE project should concentrate on growing the contributors so that those then grow users.." "You are either friendly or unfriendly with users." "if you're not part of the group that feels excluded / disadvantaged then you don't see the things that are doing it." "why should anyone care about your feelings since you don't contribute in any way anyways?" dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] openSUSE Strategy Discussion: Community Statement
by Andrew Wafaa 24 Jun '10

24 Jun '10

Whilst we are talking about supporting a wide range of users/contributors, what about a11y? In all honesty I'm not so sure we could suck any more at it even if we tried to suck at it! As I had blogged previously a11y isn't just for those with disabilities but for all users. It can also be used for automating tests etc. In my mind a strategy needs to have a Short (0-12 months), Medium (12-24 months) & Long (>24 months) term goal. Both medium and long term would flex with the times but short term is fixed. As such it would be perfectly feasable to have openSUSE as the most accessible distro as a short term goal. There are some very knowledgable people within the community on the topic of a11y, heck several of them work for Novell. Why don't we get at least one of them across for the conference to educate us? Making sure that all users and contributors find openSUSE the best experience possible is what we have to do, and that means all aspects of the project, regardless of whether it is distro, obs, forums, mailing list, whatever. (Sorry for top posting, it's my phone - honest!) Andy "Alberto Passalacqua" <albert.passalacqua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >2010/6/18 Cornelius Schumacher <cschum(a)suse.de>: > >> Personally I'm not interested in a project which doesn't target a wide range >> of users. But that might be only me. > >Well, we are at least two ;-) > >Best, >-- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org >For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org > -- Andrew Wafaa IRC: FunkyPenguin GPG: 0x3A36312F openSUSE: Get It, Discover It, Create It at http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Opensuse Mailing list collection vs. lkml collection [Was: Members, application and voting]
by Greg Freemyer 23 Jun '10

23 Jun '10

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Per Jessen <per(a)opensuse.org> wrote: > Greg Freemyer wrote: <snip> >> 2) Those lists function as a single collection from a search >> perspective. Thus, if want to find a post from Ted Tso about ext4, I >> can search all of the lists at once. Not run 100+ discrete searches. > > Doesn't google help with that? > > http://www.google.ch/search?q=site%3Aopensuse.org+freemyer Only in the sense that I can then find out which list a relevant conversation is on. But then if I want to see a threaded view of the conversation, I need to fall back to gmane or similar. In general I find the working with opensuse archives very 10+ years ago. Compare that to this search for GregKH's post to the lkml collection: http://markmail.org/search/?q=gregkh You see a list of which lists he's most active in. You see a breakdown by year of how active he was. If you click on one of his messages you get a new view that helps you track down what your looking for: http://markmail.org/search/?q=gregkh#query:gregkh+page:1+mid:gyrtxc2i6u43ya… I have no idea if markmail would add the full opensuse mailing list collection, but if they would it seems like a big step forward. Even better would be if they had a way to filter a search to just the opensuse collection. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Opensuse Mailing list collection vs. lkml collection [Was: Members, application and voting]
by Greg Freemyer 23 Jun '10

23 Jun '10

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh(a)medozas.de> wrote: > > On Tuesday 2010-06-22 17:12, Henne Vogelsang wrote: >>> My issue is that: >>> >>> 1) those lists have developed great functionality in the normal post / >>> reply process that does not require subscription. Thus if I am >>> directed to the btrfs list for a question, I can just post and not >>> have to subscribe. >> >>[...] And in general how much sense does it make to post to a >>mailinglist you are not subscribed to? That's like running into the >>room, shouting your question/remark and then running out again >>before anyone can answer/respond to you. > > Your comparison to a room/IRC channel is flawed. Posting to a > non-subscribed list makes _perfect_ sense. Contrary to IRC, the > poster _does_ leave means and identity available by which replies > can be conveyed to him, and his subsequent replies be conveyed > back to the other participants. It's more like a forums.opensuse.org > and only ever looking at your own thread. Henne, I don't know if you know any kernel developers, but if you do, go to lunch with them and get them to talk about how flexible it is to have a set of mailing lists that works the way the lkml ones do. One simple example, let's say that during this email thread I thought GregKH should be added to the conversation, but he's not subscribed to this list. With the lkml model, I simply add him to the CC line and add some introductory text just for him so he has some context. Then he and all other participants continue the conversation by doing a reply all and he is able to participate without even knowing that something that concerned him was being discussed. And without having to waste his time monitoring every mailing list which might have discussions he might need to participate in. The lkml list collection has been functioning this way for well over 5 years so everyone on the kernel team should know it well. (I don't know when the started.) That brings up another example, lets say you wanted ask that team to discuss how the lkml lists work from there perspective. Assuming your not subscribed, you would still just post your new topic, they would all do a reply-all and thus you would stay in the conversation, even though you never subscribed. And when the topic died, you would not have to unsubscribe. >>After all its about >>public discussion. Of course you can expect people to run after you >>(a.k.a. keeping the CC list intact) but that's not really nice either. > > They don't need to run, they just have to use the Reply-All > functionality of their MUA. That is exactly what is expected and required it you participate in the lkml collection of lists. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Alternative strategy proposal: openSUSE - the Linux distribution platform
by Cornelius Schumacher 22 Jun '10

22 Jun '10

After reading the strategy thread I thought it would be best to come up with an alternative strategy proposal, as this better expresses what I would like to see for openSUSE in the future than discussing all the details of the other proposals. It's somehow based on the other proposals, but tries to be not as limited. It's also not meant to introduce any brand new ideas, but more build on top of what already is there in the community. So here you go: = openSUSE, the Linux distribution platform == Goals The goal of openSUSE as a project is to provide a platform for distributing Linux and software running on Linux to a wide range of users. This platform consists of tools for creating software distributions, the openSUSE distribution as base and reference implementation, and the community supporting the tools and the distribution. On top of the platform the openSUSE universe consists of more specific distributions, which make use of openSUSE infrastructure and technology. Examples are SLES, MeeGo, openSUSE Education, KDE and GNOME live systems, and could also be for example developer or cloud oriented distributions and more. So openSUSE provides a way for subteams to address specific user groups and needs. openSUSE also provides means to distribute software independent of the environment of the user to spread Linux based software and make software easily available for use in the openSUSE distribution and systems based on it. The openSUSE distribution acts as a reference distribution, providing a testbed for the used technology, a stabilizing ground for common components, and a real-life use case for applying technology and distributing Linux software. It's targeted at technically interested users, including programmers and system administrators. It has a focus on good user experience and making technology available to end users. It doesn't target users with highly specific technical needs. == Activities === Essentials * Provide stable set of core packages distributions can build on * Broad hardware support * Provide tools for package and distribution building * Provide common building blocks for distribution, e.g. installer, configuration tool, maintenance tools * Provide home for overall community and specific teams, e.g. bug tracker, Wiki, mailing lists, collaboration tools * Create the official openSUSE distribution as reference implementation * Enable, support, and collaborate with specific teams to create their own distributions * Enable and support, and collaborate with upstream developers to build and distribute their software on openSUSE === Good to have * Provide wide variety of packages for further use * Community for user support * Work on standards which make it easier to mix components, e.g. free desktop standards * Collaboration with other distribution platforms === No focus * Directly providing a polished distribution for non-technical end users * Bleeding edge technology -- Cornelius Schumacher <cschum(a)suse.de> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] A simple alternative strategy
by Guido Berhoerster 22 Jun '10

22 Jun '10

As I see it, adopting one of the proposed strategy which all seem to significantly narrow down the scope of the project follow an exclusionary logic possibly alienating current and potential users and contributors which have a different focus in the project. I'd like to propose a very simple alternative, which in contrast to the other proposals aims to include and accommodate: openSUSE should be (remain?) a general-purpose OS. The strategy proposals ("KDE #1", "mobile and cloud", "developers" and "derivatives", "power users") should not be adopted as a general strategy but rather delegated to the respective teams (mobile, KDE, etc.) which are interested in adopting them. The above strategies are not mutually exclusive with some coordination they can be made compatible with each other (e.g. by removing the "will not focus on applications not related to development" clauses). In other words openSUSE can continue to be the preferred KDE distro, a useful base for derivative distributions and appliances, and it can become even more attractive among developers or for mobile usage, all at the same time. Yet adopting a strategy from those mentioned above narrowing down the focus of the project will go at the expense of those contributors and users with different interests. In particular, openSUSE should remain an OS targeting both developers and all kinds of end-users. People like to use what they are familiar with, if it runs satisfactorily on their desktop and it additionally provides the needed tools for other specific purposes they will likely be inclined to use it for these purposes as well. In particular students being exposed to openSUSE during school or uni might promote it (or SLES) later in their workplace (a long term strategy which seems to work well for Microsoft). This recognizes and accommodates the diversity of interests within the project and still aims at delivering a single coherent product. Creating derivative distributions is already a strength due to the Build Service and Studio, following the "base for derivatives" on the other hand poses the risk of fragmentation and a duplication of efforts. The general framework for this is already provided by the Guiding Priciples which I'll cite once again: We want to... [...] ...create a distribution which is stable, easy to use and a complete multi-purpose distribution for users and developers, for desktop and server use, for beginners and experienced users, for everybody. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] becoming a opensuse team member
by Greg Freemyer 22 Jun '10

22 Jun '10

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Vincent Untz <vuntz(a)opensuse.org> wrote: > Le lundi 21 juin 2010, à 13:57 +0200, DenverD a écrit : >> Guido Berhoerster wrote: >> > * Vincent Untz <vuntz(a)opensuse.org> [2010-06-21 12:28]: >> >> The question is why are all the people you're listing not members yet? >> >> They should probably be! >> > >> > I'm not a member, and apart from not being able to participate in >> > decision-making I haven't seen a need yet to bother with an >> > application process. >> > Actually I think the openness and simplicity of taking part in >> > openSUSE development without having to bother with membership, >> > mandatory mentoring etc. as in other comparable projects is a >> > strength of openSUSE. >> >> same here, i've been contributing in several ways for several years >> and a couple times thought i should "become a member" but when i got >> to to part where i had to try to prove my worth as a contributor to an >> unseen panel of judges, i decided i'd rather just do what i do and let >> those in "the Community" who wanna be in charge of something (like >> deciding who gets into the circle and who can decide the future, etc) >> do that, without me signing up and _asking_ to join the in-crowd.. > > Wow. You seem to have a really negative image of the membership process > :/ How can we improve this? Why is it a burden for you to mention your > contributions when applying? I don't remember this process to be > difficult or awkward when I applied a few years ago. > I became a member a year+ ago specifically because I wanted to be able to create openfate entries. (No longer restricted to members). I haven't recently checked the wording of the page describing becoming a team member, but at the time it seemed to imply members had to earn their stripes (ie. prove themselves) by doing more than your casual enthusiast like myself. (ie. Packagers, bug fixers, etc. seemed to emphasized.) Even though I participate in a lot of opensuse threads thus providing support, file a few bugzillas, etc. and have even updated some wiki pages, I was not at all sure I'd be accepted. Maybe the wording of that section needs to be softened to reflect the actual critieria used to accept members. Or maybe the criteria themselves need to be softened. Greg (team member) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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