August 2009 - openSUSE Project - openSUSE Mailing Lists

[opensuse-project] Decision making for the distribution
by Andreas Jaeger 05 Aug '09

05 Aug '09

The whole "KDE Default" discussion raises also the question on how we do make decisions and what is the purpose of openFATE. My take on this is: openSUSE in general uses the technically best solution - and this contains both features and stability - and where that's not feasible, the most popular solution is used. With openFATE, an evaluation of features is done and features get marked as usefull - and then we need to decide which of these many features get implemented. And here voting will help to reflect popularity. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj(a){novell.com,opensuse.org} SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Will Stephenson 04 Aug '09

04 Aug '09

On Monday 03 August 2009 18:34:58 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote: > On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Jim Henderson<hendersj(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > If the KDE "camp" will commit to not pushing to remove the option for > > GNOME (or lower its prominence in the selection screen by moving it to > > "other" or doing anything other than presenting it alongside the KDE > > options - heck, go ahead and list KDE first if it's that important to > > them) down the road, then fine. As an individual GNOME user, give me the > > option and support it equally and I'm a happy camper. > > KDE folks? Quoting the important bit of Jim's mail: > So, from my point of view, go ahead, make KDE the default selection if > it'll make the KDE users feel loved. That's all 306967 suggests - and "openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME" - so this +1 from me should be redundant. The rest has been said already. Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Herbert Graeber 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

Am Montag 03 August 2009 23:00:59 schrieb Joe Harmon: > >>>On 8/3/2009 at 02:14 PM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson(a)suse.de> wrote: > > > > So here's a suggestion > > > > 1) Keep the current selection page > > > > 2) KDE first and preselected followed by GNOME and others > > > > 3) KDE will not push at a later date for removing the option for GNOME or > > any > > other environment > > > > Work for you? > > Personally I don't have an issue with KDE being listed first but I do have > an issue with KDE being selected by default. Why not just leave it to the > user to select one or the other. I think if you have either selected by > default you run into the KDE vs GNOME wars. Unfortunately selecting *something* useful is the reason for all this. What's on top is secondary. And if anything is preselected it should be KDE, because it is used by most users. That's what fate#306967 is about., nothing else. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openFATE feature #306967 , my KDE summary
by Lubos Lunak 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

The original thread has grown quite a lot over the weekend, 150+ mails, and also parts of it is rubbish (like suggesting that by default both KDE and GNOME are installed, which somehow magically solves the problem of the default selection), so I suppose it will be a pain to process for those reading it only now after the weekend. Therefore I'd like to present an attempt at a summary of the KDE view of the issue. As interpreted by me, of course, since different people still have slightly different positions, but I hope it at least gives an overview to those who do not want to dig in the whole thread. It might be useful if somebody did the same for the GNOME side (and maybe 3rd party, if considered useful too). So: The openFATE request says "make KDE the default desktop" and it doesn't request anything else. It doesn't request anything happening with GNOME, in fact it explicitly mentions that it should remain supported as a choice. It can be interpreted in slightly different ways, my personal interpretation is that this can be achieved by just preselecting KDE in the installation dialog, nothing more. I consider it to be the minimum acceptable for the request and at the same time I believe it can bring the benefits described. An important point that many people here fail to realize that this is not asking for granting a special priviledge to KDE. In fact, it is asking for removing a special priviledge that makes many in the KDE community feel that KDE is treated unequally in openSUSE. In all other cases, when there is a clear preference, it is selected as a default, sometimes not even offering the user an easy choice. In this case, however, while KDE is the clear choice in the openSUSE community, it is not treated the same like in other cases. Instead, GNOME is given a priviledge that a preference must be explicitly expressed here, and this priviledge, to my knowledge, is not given to any other openSUSE component. No other non-default browser, mailer, shell, filesystem, etc. has this luxury. This is interpreted by the KDE community as a message from openSUSE that it values GNOME more, that GNOME is forcibly pushed into openSUSE and that KDE is not equally welcome in openSUSE. The openFATE request, in practice, asks for removing this GNOME priviledge and fair treating of all openSUSE components. This should also make it obvious that the current situation is not considered correct. Since now openSUSE positions itself as an open community distribution, refusing this openFATE request would also be an action that would further stress the perception that the KDE community is not as welcome in openSUSE as the GNOME community and that openSUSE can again choose to hurt the KDE majority despite the obvious preference. Therefore, just as there is the risk that aknowledging KDE's position in openSUSE by accepting the openFATE request would have a negative impact on the GNOME community, there is also the risk that continuing to treat GNOME specially in openSUSE would have a negative impact on the larger KDE community, already treated negatively. For similar reasons I believe that the pros/cons analysis in the original thread is partially incorrect, as it assumes that the current situation is not problematic and keeping the status quo does not cause any harm, or that resolving the situation requires removing choices. And yes, I believe that just changing the radio button would be a sufficient message from openSUSE that KDE is not considered less important than GNOME, likely resulting in increased KDE interest and involvement with openSUSE that could even lead to openSUSE becoming an outstanding KDE distribution, without having to negatively affect GNOME in the process. So, once again, the openFATE request is not about granting KDE any special advantage, nor it requests doing anything with GNOME other than removing this advantage that is considered unjust. It is about signalling the KDE community that they are not treated as 2nd class citizens in openSUSE, which would prevent further alienating of the KDE community and allow increase KDE involvement in openSUSE, currently hampered by the perception that this is not as welcome as GNOME involvement. And while it is considered that focusing openSUSE more on KDE would bring openSUSE more advantages, it is not necessary for KDE, nor any removal of choice of GNOME in openSUSE. This is my interpretation of the openFATE request and the position of the KDE community on this issue and what would be the minimum acceptable to make them actually feel welcome also by openSUSE acts and not just words. As I said, different people have slightly different views, so there are certainly people who have stronger views on this or would disagree with me somewhere (in fact, my own personal opinion here is not exactly in line with this, so am I not just pushing my personal agenda). I however hope this gives an overview and explains some things that many people seem to misunderstand. If you want to have a complete view, of course, enjoy reading the whole thread. In the worst case I've at least saved you reading my mails there :). PS: For those who still don't undestand how the current situation can be considered unfair, an attempt at an analogy: There is an art gallery, showing and selling pictures of two artists. One of them is considerably more popular than the other, thus clearly the gallery benefits more from this artist. Yet the gallery pays both of them the same. That is maybe equal, but it is very unfair. In addition to that, it is also demotivating - the more popular artist has no reason keep doing well or may try to go elsewhere, and the less popular artist does not have a very big motivation to try harder. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak(a)suse.cz , l.lunak(a)kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Magnus Boman 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 17:17 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote: > 2009-08-03 16:56 keltezéssel, Magnus Boman írta: > > On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 16:32 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote: > > > >> 2009-08-03 16:08 keltezéssel, Magnus Boman írta: > >> > >>> On Mon, 2009-08-03 at 15:30 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> 2009-08-02 22:14 keltezéssel, Lubos Lunak írta: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> The actual problems have *nothing* to do with the default desktop. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> They *do*. We keep sending our largest user base a signal that there are > >>>>> others that are considered more important for openSUSE. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> My KDE fanatic friends reaction was to jump ship, when GNOME was pushed > >>>> in front and KDE back. They are now Kubuntu, Mandriva and one > >>>> adventurous went to PCBSD. I stayed with SuSE, as I use it from v4.3 and > >>>> > >>>> > >>> My imaginary friends decided to jump ship when they read your email so > >>> we should go with pre-selected GNOME from now on. > >>> > >>> > >> These are real guys from my University and workplace. Do you want names > >> and e-mail addresses? Beware, some only speak Hungarian :-) Completely > >> off-topic: I just learned, that the PCBSD guy switched to Frugalware ( > >> http://frugalware.org/ ) :-) > >> > > And I'm sure we would have retained them if we went ahead with this > > feature request since they don't seem to be jumping from distro to > > distro at all... > > > It was just an illustration, that I keep track of these guys. The rest > went and stayed with Kubuntu, where KDE is promoted heavily. Sorry, let me see if I understand you correctly; You paint yourself a picture of people moving from distro to distro just to keep track of them. What happens next with those people? And what happens with the people that stayed with a distro that was heavily promoted? And what would happen with all of them if this feature request was approved? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
by Peter Czanik 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

2009-08-02 22:14 keltezéssel, Lubos Lunak írta: > On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: > >> The actual problems have *nothing* to do with the default desktop. >> > They *do*. We keep sending our largest user base a signal that there are > others that are considered more important for openSUSE. > My KDE fanatic friends reaction was to jump ship, when GNOME was pushed in front and KDE back. They are now Kubuntu, Mandriva and one adventurous went to PCBSD. I stayed with SuSE, as I use it from v4.3 and switch desktops regularly (now mostly with XFCE, as I work with relatively slow machines). My personal conspiration theory is, that SLES/SLED defaulted to GNOME because of US business users, and Novell wanted to give wider testing to openSUSE GNOME by pushing back KDE under the cover of political correctness. Which of course brought more harm than good, but easy to defend in the name of "free choice". The rest of the components have a reasonable default (MTA, text editor, etc.), which can easily be changed, if someone has different need than the majority of the users (like I use sendmail, joe, thunderbird, etc.). The same way the radio button for KDE should be pre selected, which represents the majority of openSUSE users. Bye, CzP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] some numbers
by Stephan Kulow 03 Aug '09

03 Aug '09

Hi, As some people discuss 11.0 numbers, I would like to share some numbers about 11.1 users. So I queried the download.o.o logs for the last 3 days (friday to sunday) to see what 11.1 repos are refreshed. Please note that if you run the update applet and haven't set the repo to autorefresh=no, it will see a hit in the log files, so this is fairly uptodate. I wanted to do it for a longer period to update the "Community Repos" list, but that will take a while, so I wanted to share what I have. These are uniqe IPs refreshing the 11.1 repo of listed projects. The check in front of the number says if it's in the current list of community repos, I think there is a bias for those. [x] 33076 mozilla [x] 25857 OpenOffice.org:/STABLE [x] 18994 KDE:/Community [x] 17540 Emulators:/Wine [x] 16417 games [x] 14765 KDE:/Backports [ ] 13629 KDE:/KDE4:/Factory:/Desktop [ ] 12374 devel:/tools:/building [ ] 11952 KDE:/42 [x] 11905 X11:/Compiz [x] 10317 drivers:/webcam [x] 10155 Virtualization:/VirtualBox [x] 10066 GNOME:/Community [x] 8937 GNOME:/STABLE [x] 8675 server:/database [x] 7479 server:/php [ ] 7302 KDE:/Qt [x] 6021 Mono:/Community [x] 4877 X11:/xfce [x] 4468 server:/mail I leave any interpretion up to the interested reader. Their nature is too fragile to base any kind of argument on them. I hope I didn't make any big mistakes in getting them. Oh: in the same 3 days 114393 IPs refreshed the 11.1 update repo - in case you want to calculate percentages. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] openFATE feature #306967 , my KDE summary
by Ralph Jones 02 Aug '09

02 Aug '09

As a longtime KDE user, and using SuSE/openSuse for more years than I can remember, I have only one thing to say about this debate... Hands down... This is the Dumbest issue I've seen debated by the opensuse community. And quite frankly I'm tired of getting notifications on my BB every few minutes on the topic. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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