September 2007 - openSUSE Project - openSUSE Mailing Lists

[opensuse-project] openSUSE.org is looking for a Chief Linux Evangelist
by Michael Loeffler 07 Oct '07

07 Oct '07

Hi all, To strengthen the openSUSE project we're looking for an enthusiastic Chief Evangelist to: - promote and spread the adoption of openSUSE - be a public face for the project on conferences and events - act as voice of the community back to Novell's leadership team - develop and nurture the openSUSE communities - pro actively drive openSUSE marketing This is a global role and as such, you can be located anywhere in the world. For detailed information see: http://www.novell.com/job_search/servlet/eJobSearch?Detail=007086 We're looking forward to you! -- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Status Action Items
by Christian Boltz 02 Oct '07

02 Oct '07

Hello, here's the status of Action Items. You might have noticed that I'm sending this mail later than usual. The reason is that Henne and I have decided to send it after the meeting. The advantage is that it's more up-to-date. See #309085 below for details. New Action Items: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ #328594 - Release BuildService Roadmap #328611 - Try out wishlist handling / feature tracking in the wiki (will be done by the Gnome team) #328613 - Prepare explanation of Fate features and processses in the wiki #328622 - help.opensuse.org translations BTW: The "Online Help" headline (and its translations) should be written with ChollaWide (?) font. Yes, I know this means some work for someone @SUSE (or whoever has this font available), but it's worth the effort. Work in progress: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ #223288 - create installation/usage videos -> *NOW* would be a good time to do it ;-) to have the videos available when 10.3 final is released. #281622 - put packages from czech packagers team into buildservice Vladimir wrote this will be done on demand from the community (but not before because it's some additional work) So if you want to help maintaining one of the packages listed on http://en.opensuse.org/Czech_Packagers_Team/Packages_sorted_by_maintainer speak up now ;-) #173961 - openSUSE merchandising Ideas for items to sell were collected on the mailinglist, but there's no decision yet. Currently rlihm is evaluation if we go coffepress or spreadshirt #229213 - clarify bugzilla usage for packages in build service (ETA: November); no news on this. #238350 - unmaintained wikis (is, es, vi) No news because Martin had no time. #238355 - status of cn wiki (ETA: 09.24) Will be renamed to zh-cn and zh-classical, otherwise ready. Blocked AIs: ~~~~~~~~~~~~ #164757- SDB style guide / differences SDB, HOWTO (No time) #164761 - built service trust/rating system (no time and resources) #223290 - better wishlist handling using FATE (no time) There was some discussion about this in the meeting, see the transcript #267437 - community comitee, @opensuse.org mail addresses etc. (Blocked by User Directory) #293726 - Creation of Babel wiki (No time) Things that were done: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ #309085 - clarify handling of Action Items Henne and I decided the following handling of AIs: - Henne will mention AIs that are done in the meeting (status "RESOLVED" and "VERIFIED") - I will send the status mail _after_ the meeting so that it contains the newest information - I'll CLOSE AIs that are done and "announced" in the meeting so that they won't appear on the AI list anymore #300773 - Create online help button and infrastructure This is done in KDE and Gnome, and help.o.o is also up and running. (Translations of help.o.o is another AI ;-) # 309920 - define criteria and list of community repos The repo list is finished. See http://en.opensuse.org/Repository_List_Proposal for details (not sure if the page has the latest version) If you think a repo is missing or a repo should not be included, please report in this mailinglist (preferred) or open a bugreport. Regards, Christian Boltz -- Was zum Henker is nu AMSN schon wieder? Is das IRC in der "take n-plus-1 die 42sten" Reinkarnation? Mannmannmann, diese Chat-Dinger vermehren sich ja wie die Karnickel, muss ich mir auch mal einen schreiben, um noch hip zu sein, oder was? [David Haller in suse-linux] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Some questions about openSUSE
by Lucas Nussbaum 01 Oct '07

01 Oct '07

Hi, I'm involved both in Debian and Ubuntu development, and I'm often frustrated by how little I know about the other distributions. After discussing this in a blog post[1], I got the impression that I wasn't alone in that case. So I decided to do something about that, and to go ask the other distributions' developers a few questions. If this works well (answers and interest from other distros), I might do that again, or turn this into something more formal (for example, a mailing list and/or a wiki would seem well suited for that). I'll publish the answers on my blog[2], and, if this proves to raise interest, move them to a wiki. [1] http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/blog/?p=250 [2] http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/blog/ Here is a first set of questions. In your answers, please avoid codenames (act as if the reader didn't know anything about your distribution). Please try to write your answer as a short paragraph, answering all the sub-questions from the questions at once. Q1. Packages How many "pieces of software" do you have in your distribution? Do you distinguish between "source packages" and "binary packages"? (if yes, give numbers for both). Are there subdivisions in the set of packages (by kind of support, by "freeness")? Are all packages supported the same way, or are there different levels of support? (If different levels, how many packages are supported with each level?) Are some packages imported from another distribution, or are most of your packages done from scratch by your developers ? Q2. Your developers What's a "developer" in your distribution? How many developers do you have? How many of these developers were active in 2007? Does a company (which one?) employ a large number of developers? Do you have different "classes" of developers, or does everybody have the same access right to all your packages? How do you integrate new developers? How do you handle contributors who don't have access rights to the archive? (is there some kind of sponsoring system?) Q3. Developers and packages ownership What's the relationship between developers and packages? Does each package have an assigned developer, or can everybody modify all packages without stepping on anyone's toes? Are packages mostly maintained by teams, or by developers working alone? Other questions: - Did I send that mail to the right mailing list? - Which question should I have asked? What should I ask next? - Do you think that this initiative is interesting? - Do you think that this should move to a seperate mailing list? Would you participate in such a mailing list? - Can you suggest a project that could host such a mailing list without annoying anyone? :) - Any other suggestions? Thank you for reading me so far -- and for answering my questions if you did. ;) If you want me to ping you when I'll publish the answers, just drop me a mail. -- | Lucas Nussbaum | lucas(a)lucas-nussbaum.net http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ | | jabber: lucas(a)nussbaum.fr GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F | --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openSUSE GNOME meeting (2007/09/27)
by Rodrigo Moya 28 Sep '07

28 Sep '07

Wiki Status: - Better organisation of GNOME-related wiki content (http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME) - People can help on any task (http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Tasks) - Vote for this bug -> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=325753 - People add themselves to http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME_Team Patch upstreaming: - OSC plugins to help manage patches (osc-plugins-gnome): - http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/maw/ - Rodrigo's branch: http://www.gnome.org/~rodrigo/git/osc-plugins.git - Michael's branch: http://primates.ximian.com/~maw/git/osc-plugins - We're going to force annotation on patches for a better organisation - http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Patches **** AI: add info about these plugins to the wiki Bug plan: - Important bugs to be fixed at http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Bugs - Use topics to fix bugs related to them, like http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Multiscreen - Use voting system in Bugzilla to know what bugs openSUSE community wants fixed - Policy for when upstreaming bugs GNOME:Community policy status: - Clear policy for what should be in GNOME:Community (http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Community_Inclusion_Policy) - Need specific GNOME packaging guidelines, templates in the build service **** AI check if the build service can have GNOME templates or write a OSC plugin that creates the basic spec with all the goodies GNOME:STABLE merge status: - Link packages from G:S to FACTORY - What to do with GNOME:UNSTABLE? Features requests and mini-projects - We need a good way for getting feature requests instead of bugzilla/fate. Use the wiki? idea.opensuse.org? **** AI cyberorg, jpr, and captain_magnus volunteering Q&A: - Automated tests. Use LDTP? osc run-tests plugin? - Use GNOME/ prefix for wiki pages, linking when needed **** AI Write more HOWTOs about GNOME on the wiki - More compiz/xgl integration for applications. - Organise next meetings based on user/developer audience -- Rodrigo Moya <rodrigo(a)novell.com> --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] STATUS:Communication/Wiki/Events
by Martin Lasarsch 25 Sep '07

25 Sep '07

Hi, * Events - next on my schedule: Practical Linux, Giessen, .de, LWE .nl * Communication - IRC Project meeting tomorrow - IRC GNOME meeting on Thursday * Wiki - new skin is out, some issues we are fixing it right now - top priority - news feed is working again - sv.o.o looks much better now - next: zh wiki change -- with kind regards, Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch(a)suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openSUSE Guiding Principles - 2nd draft
by Martin Lasarsch 21 Sep '07

21 Sep '07

Hi, Here is the next version of the guiding principles, the 2nd draft. Cornelius fixed some bugs and changed other stuff from your feedback. I guess it makes sense to start a new thread, the old one is at http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2007-05/msg00208.html If this is new for you, i suggest to read also the old thread. It's also available on the wiki: http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles Let's discuss the new version ... -- with kind regards, Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch(a)suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Merchandise articles for openSUSE
by Michael Loeffler 20 Sep '07

20 Sep '07

Hi, find below a status update and backround info on what Robert and myself currently working. And let's start discussion about what to offer in a shop.openSUSE.org. I'd suggest to keep the sortiment at the beginning small. I'd suggest to start with a 3-5 branded items which could be: - a black t-shirt - a cap - a mug - sticker (provided shop offer that) - pin/button (provided shop offer that) Status: We plan to offer merchandise stuff to anybody interested in. As we are not professional in providing such stuff and have budget constraints we need a vendor doing that for us. The vendor needs to offer shipment to EMEA + NA and the best scenario would be world wide shipment. We found cafepress.com offering that, registered a openSUSE shop there (http://www.cafepress.com/openSUSE - filled currently with one sample product) and need to brand the shop and set up a first set of products offered there. We recently found spreadshirt.net offering a similar service but more feature rich for a shopkeeper and offered in different languages but currently they don't ship to NA. I asked them this week if they plan to ship to NA. So, we wait for an aswer by spreadshirt. If they will offer NA shipment as well we tend to start our shop there. Best Michael -- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nuremberg SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] STATUS:Communication/Wiki/Events
by Martin Lasarsch 19 Sep '07

19 Sep '07

Hi not much this week, busy, fast mail from the Hotel before OpenExpo starts ... * Events - OpenExpo in Zuerich starts in an hour :-) - next on my schedule: Practical Linux, Giessen, .de, LWE .nl * Communication - user directory work is done by darix, some minor stuff need to be done afaik - Robert made some "i support openSUSE" buttons, we will publish them soon * Wiki - since nobody really objected on the list, i will use zh and zh-classic for the Chinese wikis. This means work for me, i hope i can do it next week. - rss feed is not updating on the mainpage, working on it. - new skin very soon -- with kind regards, Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch(a)suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] foo@opensuse.org is a subscribers only list
by Gerald Pfeifer 18 Sep '07

18 Sep '07

The openSUSE mailing lists do not strike me as particularly open. I have been contributing to free software projects for over ten years, but none I can remember appears as unfriendly when someone not subscribed to a list tries to post to that list. Why do we have such a strict setup? As evidenced by hosts like gcc.gnu.org, it is possibly to keep lists spam free without it. *If* we need such a form of moderation, could this be human moderators? Frankly, with unfriendly a reponse like this, I usually think twice about contributing. If human moderation does not work, how about a simple scheme where one has to follow a URL provided in the auto-response to unlock his previously sent message? w3c does this very nicely, for example. Also, the message refers to a "nomail version of the list" but a regular user certainly will have not idea whatsoever what that is and how to subscribe to that version of the list. </rant> My recommendations are: 1. Abandon this level of strictness and instead use decent spam and virus filtering. 2. If this does not work sufficiently well, employ human moderation or a challenge/reponse schema. 3. Better describe what the "nomail version of the list" refers to. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp(a)novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Inbound Product Mgmt T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: zypp-devel+owner(a)opensuse.org To: gp(a)novell.com Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 20:35:22 +0000 Subject: zypp-devel(a)opensuse.org is a subscribers only list Hi, this is the mlmmj program managing the mailinglist zypp-devel(a)opensuse.org You have tried to post from this email address: gp(a)novell.com But this address is not subscribed, and only subscribers may post to the list. If you believe you are correctly subscribed, please check the email address you subscribed with in the welcome message, or check the headers of any message to the mailinglist. If you want to be able to post from more than one email address, you can subscribe the other addresses to the nomail version of the list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] one addition to the guding principles + status update
by Michael Loeffler 12 Sep '07

12 Sep '07

Hi all, we had a discussion with our General Manager Roger Levy about the Guiding Principles. He appreciates the Guiding Principles very much and fully supports them. One suggestion he made was to emphasize as a task the overall success of Linux. I second this. What about adding in the "We want.." section this sentence: ..to foster the success of Linux everywhere Status on the guiding principles: - we stuff the first Board currently - when that's done we'll launch the Guiding Priniciples and fill the Board with life - we're talking about weeks not months ;-) Best Michael -- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nuremberg SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] STATUS:Communication/Wiki/Events
by Martin Lasarsch 12 Sep '07

12 Sep '07

Hi, * Events - OpenExpo in Zuerich next week, still need help on the booth - on Monday i will do a openSUSE project presentation on a Novell Partner event - next on my schedule: Practical Linux, Giessen, .de, LWE .nl * Communication - guiding principles are nearly ready, we need something for the users to "sign" it. Not sure how to do it, maybe a new group "openSUSE" ... (which means a lot of work for me to change the groups for everybody). If you know something that would work nice in the wiki, scream! :-) I don't want to have a simple wiki page ... - Erin from Novell openAudio is now at the internal Labs conference. We finished all recordings in Nürnberg last week, some additional will be made via phone/skype. * Wiki - cn.o.o is ready, but cn is the tld and not the iso language code. It should be zh. Wikipedia uses zh and zh-classic for zh-tw, i guess to avoid political problems. When we started the wiki we internally agreed that we want to do as much as possible like wikipedia. Any opinions on that? - Frank published the translation templates for the new skin beta3 testing, new help.o.o looks nice! -- with kind regards, Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch(a)suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] STATUS: Action Items
by Christian Boltz 12 Sep '07

12 Sep '07

Hello, again I'm not sure if I can attend the project meeting, therefore I'm posting a short overview of Action Items here. Things done since the last meeting: - newsfeed integration in the wiki went public (#293725) News on open AIs: - "online help" icon: - In beta3, KDE has got two new desktop icons for new users: - "online help" -> opens help.opensuse.org in a browser - "openSUSE" -> starts opensuse-greeter - On Gnome, the icons are still missing in beta3 (#300773) - help.opensuse.org was redesigned, however there are no translation and/or no automatic language detection yet. AIs which should be handled soon: - discuss merchandise items to sell (part of #173961) - SDB style guide - ETA expired... (#164757) - announce cn wiki - ETA expired (#238355), additionally there's the question if the domain name should be changed (see status mail from Martin some hours ago) Oh, and #309085 (clarify handling of action item status) is also still open - Henne, feel free to ping me on IRC whenever you see me online. As always: all other AIs have no news - not very surprising, probably everybody is busy with 10.3 beta3 ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz, AI bot (random sig!) -- >Gibt es hier in dieser Liste eigentlich ausser mir noch jemanden ?? Nein, aber es laufen einige Robots, die Traffic vortäuschen. Ich bin auch einer davon. [Tobias Korb und Thorsten Haude in suse-programming] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] YAST software installer. - QT version vs GTK version
by Clayton 11 Sep '07

11 Sep '07

I have raised an issue regarding the new GTK version of the YAST software installer over on the user mailing list, and it was suggested I start a new thread here. There has been a lot of work done on YAST to give the Gnome version of the frontend a GTK look and feel. For the most part, the layout and workflow of all the components remained the same with the changes focused only on GTK theming. This is a good idea as it brings YAST in line with the Gnome look and feel for the Gnome users. One change stands out though, the changes made to the software installer component. The Gnome version of the YAST software component has been completely reworked. From what I read, there were several very valid reasons for this, including (among many reasons): - a simplification of the interface - the QT based backend is in dire need of rework The result is a GTK YAST component that is radically different from the QT version. This raises an important usability issue... with a totally different software maintenance component between Gnome and KDE, there is a major impact to documentation, support and the development path. Documentation must now maintain conditional procedural information (If Gnome then do this, if KDE then do the other). Support must consider which window manager the customer is using and adapt their support processes accordingly. Development must now continue down two paths (development resources are hard to come by as it is... for example, a reason given for using only Tango icons in YAST was a lack of resources to maintain 2 icon sets). While these kinds of changes are important, and in many cases badly needed to keep openSUSE a viable product, this impact is critical to consider. I would like to propose a couple of things to help the improvement process. 1. Whenever a major change is introduced that radically changes the workflow of core components (like YAST), there must be a simple and clear way to switch between the new way of working and the old. My preference is to keep the old default in place, but make it clear there is a new tool in place that is being tested and provide the user the choice to switch. This is very important to people like myself who support openSUSE in the real world because there are massive processes built up around existing workflows. A radical change like the GTK software installer costs time and money for people who now have to contend with this change. 2. If a radical change or improvement is in the works for a YAST component, then that change must include BOTH the GTK and QT versions. (or as a bare minimum, there must be a plan to synch the two tools within one release cycle). The GTK and QT versions of YAST need to be in synch.... not in look, but in workflow. The same options need to be present in BOTH versions of YAST. If a major change is planned for QT, then the GTK version needs to reflect that change as well, and vice versa. 3. The GTK software installation component of YAST should either be reworked to bring the workflow back in line with the existing QT one, or the QT version needs to be reworked to bring its workflow in line with the GTK one. Of course this would also include usability improvements and fixing the old backend (something both versions are in real need of). I am sure that there is more I can add here, but these 2 points would go a long way towards keeping openSUSE (and SLED/SLES) consistent and usable. YAST is a highly important and critical part of openSUSE. It is this tool that really makes openSUSE stand out as a better choice (in addition to the very professional "polish" that we give the product). This critical part of openSUSE must remain consistent regardless of theming for one one window manager or another. C. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Time and uptime information during the installation needed
by Sebastian Furdal 11 Sep '07

11 Sep '07

IMHO: Current Time and uptime information should be available during the instllation proces. Some people want to know how long they are installing the system and what time is it. Simple thing but makes so many happiness ;) :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] No more automatic partitioning as a default during installation
by Sebastian Furdal 11 Sep '07

11 Sep '07

IMHO this is not a good idea to enable automatic formating/deleting/creating partitions using existing disks as a default. Most of the people install Linux/openSUSE under existing partitions and mostly they do not know how to change easly this, sometimes they just ignore this option and loose all data on the disk. opneSUSE instalator should just ask the user what to do: 1. Install openSUSE on a existing partition (DEFAULT) 2. Automatic Proposal 3. Advanced partitioning 1# without '/home' and 'swap partition' - just '/' and swap file! 2# the same as it is right now 3# Go to Partitioning tool Sebastian Furdal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] YAST software installer. - QT version vs GTK version
by Clayton 11 Sep '07

11 Sep '07

> Personally I was surprised your comments were not more of the form > "this new thing is not usable" ;-) I try to keep personal anti-Gnome bias out... :-) and it's still Beta so I expect some problems still need to be ironed out. > > > This raises an important usability issue... with a totally different > > > software maintenance component between Gnome and KDE, there is a major > > > impact to documentation, support and the development path. > > Hokay, agreed - however this is basically true of all existing Gnome / > KDE differences :-) how do I launch applications ? where is the menu ? > how do I configure the networking ? change the screen size ? etc. So, > agreed - but we're used to this problem in a lot of areas I think. Agreed, but those tasks are window manager specific. They are an intrinsic part of the window managers themselves and are generally not administration level toolsets. YAST is though.... and this is where I see the issue. The administration toolset (in my view anyway) should be consistent across all window managers. The administration is not window manager specific... yet this change makes it so (and would be the same issue if it was a QT rework that was not available to Gnome users). > I agree that it would be ideal to expose the old software installer for > those people that like it & are familiar with it. I'm still a fan of > using the (fixed) new installer by default, since IMHO it is rather > simpler to use. OK, that works too. This is what was done with the "new" panel menu thing in KDE, and the very rough equivalent for Gnome. With the panel menu it's a right click and people are able to switch back and forth. Granted the change is also possible with the software installer, but it is well hidden in the sysconfig file, and definitely not something I want to be walking a new user through while I am talking to them on the phone. It (the sysconfig) is not a change I want to do because the new tool is different than what I am used to. If the change is an improvement on the old situation, it's silly to insist on the old broken methods simply because they are familiar. > understanding the use-cases you have for it. IMHO conceptually, > installing packages should not require intensive training :-) I couldn't agree more. This has been a weak point for SUSE for a long time - compared to say.. Synaptic in Ubuntu which new users seem to find their way around in quite easily. YAST needs work.. and things are being done to improve... muchly appreciated :-) > As you point out, this is the case for ~virtually everything except the > package selector; which is unfortunately an oddity here; and I hope we > can provide in parallel the old style tool you're obviously familiar > with for the next release. Well, I am also fine with major changes as long as they can be close to equal regardless of window manager. I tried to make this point clear in my original message, and it is also one expressed by a few others on the user mailing list (in between the flame warring) that the admin tool should be as window manager agnostic as is possible. Theming is nice and an important aspect, but that should not include major functionality differences. I don't care how I get to YAST (the path is different in Gnome or KDE) but I expect YAST to be the same in all window managers. Take Firefox for example. If you launched Firefox in KDE and got one set of functionality (I don't mean theming of buttons etc., but workflow and way of using the browser) and then you start Firefox in Gnome and it operates totally differently to achieve the same result (displaying a webpage) you have a problem.. it's no longer Firefox. > caricature: one side rejoices in exposing complexity to the power user, > and at the other extreme the other would prefer a computer to have just > one button labelled "make money" that can be clicked repeatedly ;-) I could do with that button.. Do you have a spare one I could borrow for a couple of days? :-) In my case anyway, I don't care so much about complexity vs one button... I, and the users I deal with, need consistency. if it's complex, then it needs to be complex in all window managers. If it's one button, then it needs to be one button in all window managers. Creating a new tool that is window manager specific only serves to widen the rift between the camps. In this case, assume the Gnome one works better and has a much better user experience. Then the QT guys are left in the proverbial cold with a complex and difficult to use interface... and the wars begin... err or continue. Whereas if the changes and development can be rolled out in parallel on QT and GTK, then... wouldn't that strengthen openSUSE's toolset? ie the underlying tool and workflow is the same and has nice QT of GTK theming to fit in line with the selected window manager. Hmmmm... can the new workflow designed around the GTK version be "turned on" in QT YAST without looking like a GTK applet? If yes, why wasn't it? If no, why not? Anyway, I hope this sparks some discussions... C --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] YAST software installer. - QT version vs GTK version
by Magnus Boman 11 Sep '07

11 Sep '07

Forwarding to ml... On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 12:22 +0100, Michael Meeks wrote: > Hi Clayton, > > To echo Magnus, thanks again for the feedback. > > Personally I was surprised your comments were not more of the form > "this new thing is not usable" ;-) since there are a number of bugs we > are currently fixing here & hope to have in the next beta. I'm certainly > not happy with the current state. Boyd Timothy is working away at it as > we speak :-) > > On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 21:03 +1000, Magnus Boman wrote: > > > The result is a GTK YAST component that is radically different from > > > the QT version. > > Sure. > > > > This raises an important usability issue... with a totally different > > > software maintenance component between Gnome and KDE, there is a major > > > impact to documentation, support and the development path. > > Hokay, agreed - however this is basically true of all existing Gnome / > KDE differences :-) how do I launch applications ? where is the menu ? > how do I configure the networking ? change the screen size ? etc. So, > agreed - but we're used to this problem in a lot of areas I think. > > > > Development must now continue down two paths > > And yes there is a cost to this of course. > > > > 1. Whenever a major change is introduced that radically changes the > > > workflow of core components (like YAST), there must be a simple and > > > clear way to switch between the new way of working and the old. > > I agree that it would be ideal to expose the old software installer for > those people that like it & are familiar with it. I'm still a fan of > using the (fixed) new installer by default, since IMHO it is rather > simpler to use. > > The technical problem here is that by design the Qt package installer > was an integral part of yast2-qt, while in many ways being quite a > separable hunk of code. I am hoping that Stefan's nice re-work of the > yast2 UI backend code will (as one result) allow us to de-couple the Qt > package installer from the frontend, and have it run as a standalone > application of some sort. Is that so Stefan ? > > ie. currently the choice foisted on us by the underlying design is > (nearly): either no Gtk+ integration at all, or all of it including the > package selector. > > > > A radical change like the GTK software installer costs time and > > > money for people who now have to contend with this change. > > Of course, any chance is costly; I'd personally like to help with that > by increasing the performance & ease of use of the new solution, and > understanding the use-cases you have for it. IMHO conceptually, > installing packages should not require intensive training :-) > > > > 2. If a radical change or improvement is in the works for a YAST > > > component, then that change must include BOTH the GTK and QT versions. > > > (or as a bare minimum, there must be a plan to synch the two tools > > > within one release cycle). > > As you point out, this is the case for ~virtually everything except the > package selector; which is unfortunately an oddity here; and I hope we > can provide in parallel the old style tool you're obviously familiar > with for the next release. > > > > 3. The GTK software installation component of YAST should either be > > > reworked to bring the workflow back in line with the existing QT one, > > > or the QT version needs to be reworked to bring its workflow in line > > > with the GTK one. > > At root this cuts to the heart of some Gnome vs. KDE philosophical > differences I think, which are prolly best not discussed. As a > caricature: one side rejoices in exposing complexity to the power user, > and at the other extreme the other would prefer a computer to have just > one button labelled "make money" that can be clicked repeatedly ;-) > > > > Of course this would also include usability improvements and fixing > > > the old backend (something both versions are in real need of). > > AFAICS, the backend is libzypp and is a separate issue really; the > installer is mostly UI AFAICS. > > Does this make some sense ? > > Thanks, > > Michael. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Packman repository for 10.2 broken
by Pascal Bleser 11 Sep '07

11 Sep '07

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Just FYI and because here is as good/bad as anywhere else... The Packman repository is currently broken at least for 10.2 because quota was exceeded on the server (and the repo-md metadata couldn't be generated properly). Will be fixed ASAP. Unfortunately, the mirrors have already rsynced and, well, they're broken too ;) Most mirrors sync every 30min though, which also means it should be fixed everywhere quite quickly. - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser(a)skynet.be> <guru(a)unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG5iB9r3NMWliFcXcRAq5wAKC6FB8c2t/eYg5OLOVskbGE4y5zYwCfSxsg yXmSWzGV3tjM9JnquV6vwMI= =+wu5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] OpenExpo local community support needed
by Martin Lasarsch 10 Sep '07

10 Sep '07

Hi, I will be in Zuerich next week, 19-20.09.2007. http://www.openexpo.ch/openexpo-2007-zuerich/ We will have an openSUSE booth, would be nice if somebody from the local community would like to help me out. If you are in Zuerich and want to help me on the booth, just send me a mail ... thanks! btw: yes, you will get a free t-shirt for this! :-) -- with kind regards, Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch(a)suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Server-cd
by Martin Schlander 09 Sep '07

09 Sep '07

I was wondering if maybe we should aim to have a server-1-cd for 10.3++ as a sort of replacement for the cd1 of the dropped 5-cd set. If someone wants a server installation without X for 10.3 they either have to get a full DVD or get a 1-cd and mess around with the patterns to remove KDE, X etc. and get more or less all server packages online - or do a slow and troublesome ftp/http-install. I'm thinking a dedicated server-cd would be a much nicer solution. "Sacrificing" openSUSE on the server can't be good for SLES either - and maybe an openSUSE server-cd could be a kind of response to MS Winblows Home Server also. What do you think? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] Novell openAudio Interviews
by Francis Giannaros 07 Sep '07

07 Sep '07

On 8/28/07, Martin Lasarsch <mlasars(a)suse.de> wrote: > Please let me know what topics and/or people you would like to have on > openAudio? Please answer on the list ... thx. I know this is really delayed and I'm not sure if it's too late (only thought of it just now). How about an interview with the KDE team on their daily workings etc. since I believe most of them are in Nuremberg? I do recall a great NOA interview with Will about KDE4, but this is perhaps a little different. Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros http://francis.giannaros.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] Novell openAudio Interviews
by Martin Schlander 07 Sep '07

07 Sep '07

Den Tuesday 28 August 2007 13:26:11 skrev Martin Lasarsch: > Full overview of what is in openSUSE 10.3 > > Please let me know what topics and/or people you would like to have on > openAudio? Please answer on the list ... thx. Full overview of 10.3 is a mouthful.. I think new libzypp and dropping of zmd might be worth a topic of its own. Maybe boot speed improvements also. And perhaps KDE4 preview too - though bille spoke excellently about KDE4 on NOA not long ago. It might be worth mentioning something about the opening up of the tier1 translations to the community. It seems big languages like German, Spanish and French don't have very active translators yet, and users who speak those languages could be in for a little bit of a shock in 10.3 - having been accustomed to complete translations in the past. Personally I would also be very interested to hear about the economics of openSUSE. Dunno if NOA is only supposed to be about tech stuff. Coming up with interesting ideas is not the hard part, the difficult thing is choosing what _not_ to cover ;-) Of course people have been saying for a while we could use openSUSE Open Audio ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] STATUS:Communication/Wiki/Events
by Martin Lasarsch 05 Sep '07

05 Sep '07

Hi, could not do it yesterday, press tour ... * Events - LWE uk will not happen this fall, they moved to spring next year. http://www.linuxworldexpo.co.uk/ . I asked for a community booth ... - Enos is over, see news.o.o. I like the concept of if, if somebody want to do the same, please contact me. I will think about a concept to make it easier. * Communication - No re: on my Novell openAudio mail, so we will pick the topics - Press Tour 10.3: We decided to make it quite early before the release to show the journalists all the new stuff. Tour was very good, got some good feedback, general reception of 10.3b2 was very good. * Wiki - newsfeed on mainpage working now. I will check if we could do this also for the events. There are some issues with the new skin from Frank, we are working on it. - nothing new on babel or new wikis slow weeks, beta beta beta ..... beta3 this week! btw: on sunday S.u.S.E. had her 15th birthday ... congratulations! -- with kind regards, Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch(a)suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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