September 2007 - openSUSE Project - openSUSE Mailing Lists

[opensuse-project] STATUS:Communication/Wiki/Events
by Martin Lasarsch 12 Sep '07

12 Sep '07

Hi, * Events - OpenExpo in Zuerich next week, still need help on the booth - on Monday i will do a openSUSE project presentation on a Novell Partner event - next on my schedule: Practical Linux, Giessen, .de, LWE .nl * Communication - guiding principles are nearly ready, we need something for the users to "sign" it. Not sure how to do it, maybe a new group "openSUSE" ... (which means a lot of work for me to change the groups for everybody). If you know something that would work nice in the wiki, scream! :-) I don't want to have a simple wiki page ... - Erin from Novell openAudio is now at the internal Labs conference. We finished all recordings in Nürnberg last week, some additional will be made via phone/skype. * Wiki - cn.o.o is ready, but cn is the tld and not the iso language code. It should be zh. Wikipedia uses zh and zh-classic for zh-tw, i guess to avoid political problems. When we started the wiki we internally agreed that we want to do as much as possible like wikipedia. Any opinions on that? - Frank published the translation templates for the new skin beta3 testing, new help.o.o looks nice! -- with kind regards, Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch(a)suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] STATUS: Action Items
by Christian Boltz 12 Sep '07

12 Sep '07

Hello, again I'm not sure if I can attend the project meeting, therefore I'm posting a short overview of Action Items here. Things done since the last meeting: - newsfeed integration in the wiki went public (#293725) News on open AIs: - "online help" icon: - In beta3, KDE has got two new desktop icons for new users: - "online help" -> opens help.opensuse.org in a browser - "openSUSE" -> starts opensuse-greeter - On Gnome, the icons are still missing in beta3 (#300773) - help.opensuse.org was redesigned, however there are no translation and/or no automatic language detection yet. AIs which should be handled soon: - discuss merchandise items to sell (part of #173961) - SDB style guide - ETA expired... (#164757) - announce cn wiki - ETA expired (#238355), additionally there's the question if the domain name should be changed (see status mail from Martin some hours ago) Oh, and #309085 (clarify handling of action item status) is also still open - Henne, feel free to ping me on IRC whenever you see me online. As always: all other AIs have no news - not very surprising, probably everybody is busy with 10.3 beta3 ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz, AI bot (random sig!) -- >Gibt es hier in dieser Liste eigentlich ausser mir noch jemanden ?? Nein, aber es laufen einige Robots, die Traffic vortäuschen. Ich bin auch einer davon. [Tobias Korb und Thorsten Haude in suse-programming] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] YAST software installer. - QT version vs GTK version
by Clayton 11 Sep '07

11 Sep '07

I have raised an issue regarding the new GTK version of the YAST software installer over on the user mailing list, and it was suggested I start a new thread here. There has been a lot of work done on YAST to give the Gnome version of the frontend a GTK look and feel. For the most part, the layout and workflow of all the components remained the same with the changes focused only on GTK theming. This is a good idea as it brings YAST in line with the Gnome look and feel for the Gnome users. One change stands out though, the changes made to the software installer component. The Gnome version of the YAST software component has been completely reworked. From what I read, there were several very valid reasons for this, including (among many reasons): - a simplification of the interface - the QT based backend is in dire need of rework The result is a GTK YAST component that is radically different from the QT version. This raises an important usability issue... with a totally different software maintenance component between Gnome and KDE, there is a major impact to documentation, support and the development path. Documentation must now maintain conditional procedural information (If Gnome then do this, if KDE then do the other). Support must consider which window manager the customer is using and adapt their support processes accordingly. Development must now continue down two paths (development resources are hard to come by as it is... for example, a reason given for using only Tango icons in YAST was a lack of resources to maintain 2 icon sets). While these kinds of changes are important, and in many cases badly needed to keep openSUSE a viable product, this impact is critical to consider. I would like to propose a couple of things to help the improvement process. 1. Whenever a major change is introduced that radically changes the workflow of core components (like YAST), there must be a simple and clear way to switch between the new way of working and the old. My preference is to keep the old default in place, but make it clear there is a new tool in place that is being tested and provide the user the choice to switch. This is very important to people like myself who support openSUSE in the real world because there are massive processes built up around existing workflows. A radical change like the GTK software installer costs time and money for people who now have to contend with this change. 2. If a radical change or improvement is in the works for a YAST component, then that change must include BOTH the GTK and QT versions. (or as a bare minimum, there must be a plan to synch the two tools within one release cycle). The GTK and QT versions of YAST need to be in synch.... not in look, but in workflow. The same options need to be present in BOTH versions of YAST. If a major change is planned for QT, then the GTK version needs to reflect that change as well, and vice versa. 3. The GTK software installation component of YAST should either be reworked to bring the workflow back in line with the existing QT one, or the QT version needs to be reworked to bring its workflow in line with the GTK one. Of course this would also include usability improvements and fixing the old backend (something both versions are in real need of). I am sure that there is more I can add here, but these 2 points would go a long way towards keeping openSUSE (and SLED/SLES) consistent and usable. YAST is a highly important and critical part of openSUSE. It is this tool that really makes openSUSE stand out as a better choice (in addition to the very professional "polish" that we give the product). This critical part of openSUSE must remain consistent regardless of theming for one one window manager or another. C. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Time and uptime information during the installation needed
by Sebastian Furdal 11 Sep '07

11 Sep '07

IMHO: Current Time and uptime information should be available during the instllation proces. Some people want to know how long they are installing the system and what time is it. Simple thing but makes so many happiness ;) :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] No more automatic partitioning as a default during installation
by Sebastian Furdal 11 Sep '07

11 Sep '07

IMHO this is not a good idea to enable automatic formating/deleting/creating partitions using existing disks as a default. Most of the people install Linux/openSUSE under existing partitions and mostly they do not know how to change easly this, sometimes they just ignore this option and loose all data on the disk. opneSUSE instalator should just ask the user what to do: 1. Install openSUSE on a existing partition (DEFAULT) 2. Automatic Proposal 3. Advanced partitioning 1# without '/home' and 'swap partition' - just '/' and swap file! 2# the same as it is right now 3# Go to Partitioning tool Sebastian Furdal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] YAST software installer. - QT version vs GTK version
by Clayton 11 Sep '07

11 Sep '07

> Personally I was surprised your comments were not more of the form > "this new thing is not usable" ;-) I try to keep personal anti-Gnome bias out... :-) and it's still Beta so I expect some problems still need to be ironed out. > > > This raises an important usability issue... with a totally different > > > software maintenance component between Gnome and KDE, there is a major > > > impact to documentation, support and the development path. > > Hokay, agreed - however this is basically true of all existing Gnome / > KDE differences :-) how do I launch applications ? where is the menu ? > how do I configure the networking ? change the screen size ? etc. So, > agreed - but we're used to this problem in a lot of areas I think. Agreed, but those tasks are window manager specific. They are an intrinsic part of the window managers themselves and are generally not administration level toolsets. YAST is though.... and this is where I see the issue. The administration toolset (in my view anyway) should be consistent across all window managers. The administration is not window manager specific... yet this change makes it so (and would be the same issue if it was a QT rework that was not available to Gnome users). > I agree that it would be ideal to expose the old software installer for > those people that like it & are familiar with it. I'm still a fan of > using the (fixed) new installer by default, since IMHO it is rather > simpler to use. OK, that works too. This is what was done with the "new" panel menu thing in KDE, and the very rough equivalent for Gnome. With the panel menu it's a right click and people are able to switch back and forth. Granted the change is also possible with the software installer, but it is well hidden in the sysconfig file, and definitely not something I want to be walking a new user through while I am talking to them on the phone. It (the sysconfig) is not a change I want to do because the new tool is different than what I am used to. If the change is an improvement on the old situation, it's silly to insist on the old broken methods simply because they are familiar. > understanding the use-cases you have for it. IMHO conceptually, > installing packages should not require intensive training :-) I couldn't agree more. This has been a weak point for SUSE for a long time - compared to say.. Synaptic in Ubuntu which new users seem to find their way around in quite easily. YAST needs work.. and things are being done to improve... muchly appreciated :-) > As you point out, this is the case for ~virtually everything except the > package selector; which is unfortunately an oddity here; and I hope we > can provide in parallel the old style tool you're obviously familiar > with for the next release. Well, I am also fine with major changes as long as they can be close to equal regardless of window manager. I tried to make this point clear in my original message, and it is also one expressed by a few others on the user mailing list (in between the flame warring) that the admin tool should be as window manager agnostic as is possible. Theming is nice and an important aspect, but that should not include major functionality differences. I don't care how I get to YAST (the path is different in Gnome or KDE) but I expect YAST to be the same in all window managers. Take Firefox for example. If you launched Firefox in KDE and got one set of functionality (I don't mean theming of buttons etc., but workflow and way of using the browser) and then you start Firefox in Gnome and it operates totally differently to achieve the same result (displaying a webpage) you have a problem.. it's no longer Firefox. > caricature: one side rejoices in exposing complexity to the power user, > and at the other extreme the other would prefer a computer to have just > one button labelled "make money" that can be clicked repeatedly ;-) I could do with that button.. Do you have a spare one I could borrow for a couple of days? :-) In my case anyway, I don't care so much about complexity vs one button... I, and the users I deal with, need consistency. if it's complex, then it needs to be complex in all window managers. If it's one button, then it needs to be one button in all window managers. Creating a new tool that is window manager specific only serves to widen the rift between the camps. In this case, assume the Gnome one works better and has a much better user experience. Then the QT guys are left in the proverbial cold with a complex and difficult to use interface... and the wars begin... err or continue. Whereas if the changes and development can be rolled out in parallel on QT and GTK, then... wouldn't that strengthen openSUSE's toolset? ie the underlying tool and workflow is the same and has nice QT of GTK theming to fit in line with the selected window manager. Hmmmm... can the new workflow designed around the GTK version be "turned on" in QT YAST without looking like a GTK applet? If yes, why wasn't it? If no, why not? Anyway, I hope this sparks some discussions... C --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] YAST software installer. - QT version vs GTK version
by Magnus Boman 11 Sep '07

11 Sep '07

Forwarding to ml... On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 12:22 +0100, Michael Meeks wrote: > Hi Clayton, > > To echo Magnus, thanks again for the feedback. > > Personally I was surprised your comments were not more of the form > "this new thing is not usable" ;-) since there are a number of bugs we > are currently fixing here & hope to have in the next beta. I'm certainly > not happy with the current state. Boyd Timothy is working away at it as > we speak :-) > > On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 21:03 +1000, Magnus Boman wrote: > > > The result is a GTK YAST component that is radically different from > > > the QT version. > > Sure. > > > > This raises an important usability issue... with a totally different > > > software maintenance component between Gnome and KDE, there is a major > > > impact to documentation, support and the development path. > > Hokay, agreed - however this is basically true of all existing Gnome / > KDE differences :-) how do I launch applications ? where is the menu ? > how do I configure the networking ? change the screen size ? etc. So, > agreed - but we're used to this problem in a lot of areas I think. > > > > Development must now continue down two paths > > And yes there is a cost to this of course. > > > > 1. Whenever a major change is introduced that radically changes the > > > workflow of core components (like YAST), there must be a simple and > > > clear way to switch between the new way of working and the old. > > I agree that it would be ideal to expose the old software installer for > those people that like it & are familiar with it. I'm still a fan of > using the (fixed) new installer by default, since IMHO it is rather > simpler to use. > > The technical problem here is that by design the Qt package installer > was an integral part of yast2-qt, while in many ways being quite a > separable hunk of code. I am hoping that Stefan's nice re-work of the > yast2 UI backend code will (as one result) allow us to de-couple the Qt > package installer from the frontend, and have it run as a standalone > application of some sort. Is that so Stefan ? > > ie. currently the choice foisted on us by the underlying design is > (nearly): either no Gtk+ integration at all, or all of it including the > package selector. > > > > A radical change like the GTK software installer costs time and > > > money for people who now have to contend with this change. > > Of course, any chance is costly; I'd personally like to help with that > by increasing the performance & ease of use of the new solution, and > understanding the use-cases you have for it. IMHO conceptually, > installing packages should not require intensive training :-) > > > > 2. If a radical change or improvement is in the works for a YAST > > > component, then that change must include BOTH the GTK and QT versions. > > > (or as a bare minimum, there must be a plan to synch the two tools > > > within one release cycle). > > As you point out, this is the case for ~virtually everything except the > package selector; which is unfortunately an oddity here; and I hope we > can provide in parallel the old style tool you're obviously familiar > with for the next release. > > > > 3. The GTK software installation component of YAST should either be > > > reworked to bring the workflow back in line with the existing QT one, > > > or the QT version needs to be reworked to bring its workflow in line > > > with the GTK one. > > At root this cuts to the heart of some Gnome vs. KDE philosophical > differences I think, which are prolly best not discussed. As a > caricature: one side rejoices in exposing complexity to the power user, > and at the other extreme the other would prefer a computer to have just > one button labelled "make money" that can be clicked repeatedly ;-) > > > > Of course this would also include usability improvements and fixing > > > the old backend (something both versions are in real need of). > > AFAICS, the backend is libzypp and is a separate issue really; the > installer is mostly UI AFAICS. > > Does this make some sense ? > > Thanks, > > Michael. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Packman repository for 10.2 broken
by Pascal Bleser 11 Sep '07

11 Sep '07

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Just FYI and because here is as good/bad as anywhere else... The Packman repository is currently broken at least for 10.2 because quota was exceeded on the server (and the repo-md metadata couldn't be generated properly). Will be fixed ASAP. Unfortunately, the mirrors have already rsynced and, well, they're broken too ;) Most mirrors sync every 30min though, which also means it should be fixed everywhere quite quickly. - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser(a)skynet.be> <guru(a)unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG5iB9r3NMWliFcXcRAq5wAKC6FB8c2t/eYg5OLOVskbGE4y5zYwCfSxsg yXmSWzGV3tjM9JnquV6vwMI= =+wu5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] OpenExpo local community support needed
by Martin Lasarsch 10 Sep '07

10 Sep '07

Hi, I will be in Zuerich next week, 19-20.09.2007. http://www.openexpo.ch/openexpo-2007-zuerich/ We will have an openSUSE booth, would be nice if somebody from the local community would like to help me out. If you are in Zuerich and want to help me on the booth, just send me a mail ... thanks! btw: yes, you will get a free t-shirt for this! :-) -- with kind regards, Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch(a)suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Server-cd
by Martin Schlander 09 Sep '07

09 Sep '07

I was wondering if maybe we should aim to have a server-1-cd for 10.3++ as a sort of replacement for the cd1 of the dropped 5-cd set. If someone wants a server installation without X for 10.3 they either have to get a full DVD or get a 1-cd and mess around with the patterns to remove KDE, X etc. and get more or less all server packages online - or do a slow and troublesome ftp/http-install. I'm thinking a dedicated server-cd would be a much nicer solution. "Sacrificing" openSUSE on the server can't be good for SLES either - and maybe an openSUSE server-cd could be a kind of response to MS Winblows Home Server also. What do you think? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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