March 2016 - openSUSE Users - openSUSE Mailing Lists

[opensuse] disappearing KDE start menu
by John Young 31 Mar '16

31 Mar '16

I have an odd KDE problem. I am running openSUSE Leap 42.1 with KDE and, on my main desktop, when I click on the start menu to run a new application, the menu flashes briefly and then disappears. If I switch to the second desktop, the start menu works fine. There has to be something hosed with my settings somewhere, but I'm not sure where it is. Has anyone seen this? Any ideas where to look? -- 'All ideas and opinions expressed in this communication are those of the author alone and do not necessarily reflect the ideas and opinions of anyone else.' -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse] ancient hardware strikes again ...
by Per Jessen 31 Mar '16

31 Mar '16

<frustration vent> You might remember my postings about my new Zotac Nano CI323 and how I couldn't get it to play HDTV from mythtv. It's quad-core 1.6GHz celeron wasn't fast enough for the preferred software decoder setup, but getting video acceleration to work wasn't going anywhere. It looks like it _could_ work, but I'm still seeing e.g.: [drm:intel_cpu_fifo_underrun_irq_handler [i915]] *ERROR* CPU pipe C FIFO underrun All of this playing the video acceleration made me wonder if my current mythtv frontend box might just benefit from it. Et voila! a single change in the setup, and my ancient IBM Thinkcentre M52 now plays HDTV. Its single Celeron and 1Gb of memory is pretty much maxed out, and it is getting a little noisy, but it works. For sale: new Zotac Nano CI323 with 4Gb memory, in original packaging. 4K Ultra HD capable ... </frustration vent> -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.3°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner(a)opensuse.org

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Re: Fwd: Re: [opensuse] Where Is Wayland?
by Xen 30 Mar '16

30 Mar '16

Per Jessen schreef op 30-03-16 11:25: > Xen wrote: > >> People are not talking about the server world and about Android. And >> all you have to say about the desktop is "and we have multiple desktop >> environments to choose from". That is not the hallmark of success. >> That is the hallmark of poverty, because the only thing you can attest >> to is a bit of choice, but not any form of quality. If there were, you >> would have mentioned it. > That I've been able to use Linux+KDE for running my business for ten > years or more is somewhat of a testament to the quality, I think. I do > think quality has suffered with recent KDE releases, but KDE3 is great. Per, you do realize that if your case in mind is not representative of at least some or perhaps a great many users, that giving a counter example doesn't suddenly obviate or "undo" the example that the other has given right? When I say I like apples, and you say you like oranges, that doesn't suddenly mean that I no longer like apples. Also when I say "I like apples because they grow in the Netherlands" and you say "well, I live in Germany and I have an orange tree grove in an enclosed dome" that doesn't suddenly take away from the fact that ordinarily apples grow much better in our climate than oranges do. Your counter example doesn't take away from my example, and especially so if your case is rather nich-y or pertaining only to a small number of users, that doesn't suddenly mean that what I was saying was wrong, or is wrong, you know? And any single one user is going to be an example of that user or those type of people existing. I did not say, and I did not ever say, that your type of person does not exist. But you seem to be trying to convince me that my type of person doesn't exist, by using your type of person as a counter example immediately against my type of person. >> "Today you have little reason for staying with Windows if you don't >> want or have to." >> >> That's what you think. That's not what the world agrees on. > Actually, that is what I know for a fact. But as I also added - "There > are exceptions, but they are few and far between. (I'm ignoring > games).". So you are saying that I am an exception right. I have big reasons to not use LibreOffice to begin with. Then you say (or might say) "there is no reason not to use it". Well, according to you, but you are not representative of the crowd. You are representative of a very small number of people, and that is what Linux advocates usually don't understand -- that they don't understand the ordinary person. I am seeing it here again today, with you. You are explaining your appraisal of the situation as fact. You think you know for a fact, and that it is a fact, that for most people (the "you" you mention) there is no reason to stay with Windows 'if you don't want or have to'. Obviously wanting to stay with Windows is going to be based on reasons. So you have an escape hatch right there. I can be wanting to stay with Windows because it is pretty, but according to you I would still not really have a reason to. But wanting IS a reason and it is COMPRISED of reasons. I want to stay with Windows (or often choose to use Windows) because of various reasons, that I stated. - pretty - easy - everything works without much ado (except for current day problems that didn't exist in Windows 7) - all games work - all programs work - there is a binary compatibility that has lasted for at least 15 years now - I can still use any software I want from the days of yore. Yes, these are REASONS. You say they are not there. Well, they are there. I can go on: - I prefer individually installable files instead of package systems - I prefer individually updated programs (actually I usually detest updates) instead of programs updated by a package system. Yes this is what I want. Do you think reasons exist that do not coincide with what people want? What your statement comes down to is the following: "There is no reason to stay with Windows if you have no reason to stay with Windows". That is pretty much of a DUH statement and it is meaningless. That does not take away from the fact that there ARE (or can be) reasons to stay with Windows if you DO have them. That idea of universally objective reasons pertaining to all people equally, that you have, is not true. There can be many reasons for staying with Windows and people have them as well, based on what they want and need, yes. I'm not saying you have to. I am saying there are reasons, depending on who you are, and what your situation is, for making that choice. On many an occasion for many users. Probably so. Life teaches you that this is true, most likely and most probably, if you look at the evidence (mostly statistics and opinions being shared everywhere). > To any ordinary home or office user, the Linux desktop and the plethora > of applications is more than plenty. Sure, some proprietary > applications are not available for Linux (Acrobat Reader, iTunes come > to mind), if those are critical to you, you obviously can't choose > Linux. I guess I should just explain my appraisal of this infliction. Since in general Linux people, or people who use Linux a lot, are okay with an ugly and hideous system, it is also very likely that they don't care a lot about creating or crafting beautiful products either. Then this affliction will lead them to assume that there is not actually any reason to create anything beautiful or attractive. This is what I called "visual poverty". Then, this leads me to assume that you are one of those people that does not put a high standard onto himself for visually appealing productions or creative works. Furthermore, this leads me to contend that you are probably okay with shabby applications like LibreOffice and GIMP, since creating anything truly beautiful with it is hardly possible. This also leads me to assume that you have a rather estranged view of the ordinary home or office user. Personally I deal with and interact with youngsters who use smartphone apps. I can tell you that not one of them would really Like Linux. These kiddos use a number of simple apps to create beautiful things without any effort. There are features that are available to any smartphone user that you will never find on any Linux distro or desktop. They embellish pictures like there is no end to it. For me, doing something similar in GIMP is just downright impossible. Even the average commercial websites is 20 orders of magnitude more attractive than your average desktop application in KDE or Gnome. Recently there was some initiative that was announced on kde.org. It linked to some kind of spammy promotional thing on the web that looked reasonably good. But it linked through to a very very very ugly and ill-designed wiki. That is not attractive to anyone, anyone, ANYONE outside of the Linux domain itself. Acrobat, iTunes, Photoshop, CorelDraw, Cubase, InDesign, Premiere, there are just MANY MANY productivity suites that don't work or exist on Linux. You want to compare that to the meagre offering supplied only and pretty much only by LibreOffice? That if you don't have any special needs, or don't need to do anything really outstanding, that you can be okay with LibreOffice? Really? Each of these apps I look up on the Google web, there will be only hits about "alternative". "Cubase alternative". "Premiere alternative". Those apps don't exist, and not anything like it either. People make their livelihoods creating those programs. There is no livelihood to be made doing that for Linux. How can you ever ever consider that anything done by a small team of volunteers will be even remotely up to par with an offering used by millions of professionals on a daily basis? You're saying "If you don't need any of that, you can come to Linux". But there is more of course. Linux is just much harder to use, and I have been using it since about 1997. If I were to go out there among regular people, and visit offices, or schools, it would not be hard to find scores and scores of people who agree with me. A regular user prefers and favours Windows (or OS X). STRONGLY. Some years ago in my student's association (sorority, you could say) the computer team decided to turn all computers into Linux. They had to revert it because the members were not happy at all. That situation hasn't really changed, maybe it has changed 5% in favour of Linux these days. But not by much. REAL PEOPLE DISAGREE. You can go up with your theoretical assertions or non-sequitors all you want, but if you ask a real person, he will say what I'm saying (if she even knows about Linux to begin with). >> It is not what I think. The only reason I came to Linux today is >> because of Calligra. >> >> Yes at this moment I have Kubuntu 16.04 installed here as the only OS. >> >> Things I have lost: >> - pretty environment >> - ability to play some games >> - usually no worries about permissions with whatever I do in my own >> system - superior ability to encrypt using TrueCrypt >> - overall comfort in being able to do whatever I want >> - some favourite tools (Irfanview) >> - problem free existence with regards to the common operation of the >> OS > Let me try to think of what I "lost" when I switched to a Linux-only > environment, back in 2005 or 2006 - > > - the Windows environment > - BSOD > - my favourite email client > - games > - daily frustration > - Microsoft Office (which caused much of the above) Sure you can counterpose what you think immediately with what I have said, but that was not the point of this thread, was it? Of the 6 things you mention, the only real thing seems to be Microsoft Office, which you may have hated. I can't say I have ever liked it myself. Losing the Windows environment is pretty obvious. What have you lost by stopping to grow apples? Growing apples. The average amount of BSODs I have had per year in my home systems must have been about 1. Not saying you couldn't have had them. But unless your hardware is faulty, this thing must be grossly overrated. I don't think I have ever ever had a BSOD on this system in either Windows 7 or Windows 8. I have one laptop which may have bad hardware that caused BSODs --- an earlier examplar of the same type never had them. I mean, you could qualify that Windows environment and what is not likeable about it. You could. But you didn't. So you're saying you didn't lose much (good things) for you, but it doesn't sound like you used anything special or useful? You make it sound like you lost living in a culture where you never felt at home to begin with. Like, you are a foreigner in India and you hate the country and you don't know anyone there. And then you leave the country, and ask "what have I lost?" Well obviously, not much. But this is not the general appraisal or perception or feeling of the average Windows user (or Mac user). See, the whole point of the statement you make is that you feel that I don't actually need those things (I say I need). You feel that I am overrating my needs, and that I might do just as well with lesser applications. You are actually not only speaking of the average person, you are also directly speaking of me when you say "There is no need to stay in Windows". You are basically saying that my needs as a person can be met by Linux. And you're wrong. At least, not completely, and not for the most part, and currently, not at all times. I think I have a better idea of what my needs are than you, okay? And anything about Linux really proves it. I can go on into infite detail if I'd have to. But that list that was posted by SDM was remarkably clear about it (http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.curre…) > I no longer play that many games, but on Linux it's things like > Transport Tycoon on Master of Magic (the latter in dosemu). > Occasionally Kpatience when I'm waiting for a database to load. Well okay that is fine but maybe you have just accepted that you cannot anyway. That doesn't mean you wouldn't want to if the situation was different. I just spent countless hours trying and debugging Guild Wars 2 in PlayOnLinux/wine. My performance is too rotten to actually play the game, but I was just interested in seeing how well it would run. There were two huge errors and I now have them mostly solved, although the game does crash after a while (but only after a while) and it may be related to using the 32-bit version now, not sure. It can feel like an acceptance of "I would wish I could, but I just can't". And then you forget about it. But not because you really have no taste for it. At least not for me. I consider it a sad thing. As well.... you might start doing it again the moment it became available again. Yes, perhaps even you yourself as well. Perhaps you too. Sometimes we don't even know how great something is unless we have access to it, and can experience it. Lack of context makes everything seem true. But the moment we have the real experience we actually crave, we know it wasn't so. Lots of people content themselves with a mediocre life. One of the five biggest regrets of old people right before they die, is having settled for a mediocre life by not expressing their true feelings. One of the other four regrets is having pretended to be happy, when they were not. It's a book, see here: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2012/feb/01/top-five-regrets-of-the… I'm saying you can start to believe anything if you don't have any experiences from outside your frame of reference. With a lack of some outside perspective, you can't really know who you are. Jung wrote about his visit to the Pueblo indians in New Mexico: "We always require an outside point to stand on, in order to apply the lever of criticism." I'm sorry, I used to have this text on my hard drive, but some ...people stole it from my house and now I have to take it from the internet, and I don't like it. I'm just saying that if you are entrenched in Linux, you may lose awareness of what it was like being outside of Linux. > TBH, it's been a long time since I've wondered about the advantages, > it's a non-topic for me. Like I said earlier, I don't think there's > much point in comparing. That sounds like being depleted. >> - Dolphin kept crashing when I opened its settings, and when it did >> open, the settings I needed were no longer there, but are now KDE wide >> apparently -- or at least located there, which I had to find out by >> way of IRC >> - it is easier to use IRC on Linux >> - it took me at least 20 minutes to get my sound working >> - the operating system doesn't play any sounds when you log in or >> exit, which is disconcerting to me and makes me feel alienated and >> isolated - I have spent at least a day setting this system up and it >> will take much longer >> - Linux in general requires much more investment in getting the system >> you want. Investing seems to be what you do on Linux. > Well, that is one major advantage of Linux over Windows - with Linux you > _can_ have "the system you want". With Windows and MacOS, you get "the > system we want you to have". Microsoft has never really had a mindset of forcing stuff upon users if that stuff was not really what users wanted. I can say Apple has that mindset. I can say Microsoft has attained that mindset with Windows 8 and beyond. Microsoft has started doing things that users clearly don't want, apparently because it wants to enforce a new model of software. And a new way to gain revenue. I think it is the moral and even social bankrupt of Microsoft in that sense, but it is also rather clear they are struggling to stay relevant. Sure they have been hated on and employed nasty business practices, but their software in general was not at odds with what people actually wanted from it. If the system of Windows is already what I want, because I agree with it or it agrees with me, then there is obviously no way for me to improve on that by going elsewhere (which would be to go away from myself). You know, actually producing something that your users will like, IS a real possibility. If I write a song and people like it, those people don't have to write that song themselves. And in general if it is impossible in Linux to get the system you want (which is true for me) then no, you can NOT have the system you want in Linux. Because it requires too much stuff to be changed. Linux may be diverse but at the same time it is all the same thing. Every type of Linux is still linux. And if the choices presented to you do not cut it (and there is actually not really a great dimension to it) then no, you cannot have the system you want because all of it is the same thing. I am a tinkerer. I have not really achieved the system I want at all. For one, I cannot change the applications just like that. Any person in this world that wants to use anything even moderately complex, will have to be depending on other people also wanting that same thing, and because of that, already having made it, or be wanting to make it. Microsoft did not have a superior attitude about software. They didn't need to, because their software was already the most popular. They had a very down to earth attitude: it needs to work for the customer. Linux people do not have that attitude at all, not by a close margin. So Linux is filled with people who do not make what the user or the customer wants. And if you have 1000 people not making what the customer wants, those 1000 people will all create something slightly different and the customer will still not be served. And if you have a million people doing that, the customer will STILL not have been served. You have to look at the customer and take serious what he says he needs. But your position in this thread now is precisely that you shouldn't take the user seriously. Your position has been that you shouldn't listen to him or her. Your position has been that you are in a better position to judge his or her needs, and this attitude defeats you. And it defeats Linux, in that sense. That is not a customer-oriented attitude. That is a creator-oriented attitude that says "I know better what the customer wants, than the customer knows himself". There can be good and bad parts to that. But it is no coincidence that this is really Apple's attitude as well. And Apple IS arrogant. But in a general sense, not nearly as arrogant as Linux developers completely disregarding the wishes of their users. https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ " OK, so devs don’t care anymore about users, even in KDE." Just a single silly quote from that long article of quotes. If no one cares about the end user, no one will make what the end user wants. Not even if there are a billion of them. However, even a SINGLE person listening to what the user wants, can MAKE what that user wants. That's the magic of it. Linux's "choice" is useless if you can only choose between unsatisfying options. And Microsoft did listen to users because users paid their bills. It is what happens in a normal capitalist situation. It's normally what the market does if the actual users are also paying customers. It's the beauty of a free market, in that sense. You get what you want, because you are paying for it. So there is not really, or there does not have to be, a difference between "what we want you to have" and "what I want". If "what I want to create for you" and "what I want to have" is the same thing (AND IT CAN VERY WELL BE) then the whole imagined conflict resolves itself. Just because someone else made that choice doesn't mean it is bad for me. Depending on what reason they had for it (and making money is a good reason). (Selling stuff is a good reason). >> - The only reason samba (eventually) works better on Linux is because >> of a bug in Windows. >> (and I kinda like the places in Dolphin). [[ It is now possible in my >> KDE to "add a network folder" but it doesn't seem to add it anywhere >> persistent. I do not see it in my mounts. It is not possible to >> user-mount something in a user-tree, like you can (ostensibly) do in >> Windows without it asking for administrative rights ]]. >> >> But after you've set it up in fstab ---- not something you can expect >> an ordinary user to do ---- it is very pleasant and always available. > A truly ordinary user, my mum for instance, will need an admin person to > help with doing unordinary things in Windows and Linux both. The number of persons of providing that admin help is much greater on Windows, not just because of more users, but also because it is easier and the level of expertise in software and computing required, is much lower. You can be an admin in Windows with an IQ of 5 so to speak, but to be an admin in Linux you need an IQ of 10, so to speak. You catch my drift? Simply because "Browse network" "Choose domain" "View available computers" "Connect to the computer" "View the shares" "Right click the share" "Map network drive" is something that is just very easy to accomplish if you have the least amount of expertise in doing stuff, and with the least amount of tutorial, it really becomes children's work. I could tell my sister to do that and she would be able to do it easily and also understand what it meant. She would start crying if I told her to do the same thing in Linux. That "admin help" you mention would amount to nothing more than a short email or a short phone call. Doing the same in Linux would amount to a detailed and lengthy explanation. And needing me to go there to buy her chocolate and comfort her for making her do something this terrible. Been there, done that, you know. > I do all of my officework (every day, 8 to 18) on Linux. My typical > tools are: Firefox, Tbird, knode, gimp, libreoffice, console, okular, > vi, man, kaffeine, ssh, Dolphin/Konqueror, skanlite. My livingroom TV > client runs Linux, even the TV set runs Linux. My satellite receiver > system runs Linux, the office telephone system runs Linux. My outdoor > Xmas decorations are controlled by a Linux system. And these 30 minutes > right now is probably the most time I've spent talking/writing about it > in a very long time. Do you remember using IrfanView and how easy and extremely fast it is to do some common image operations in it? The mere idea of having to do it each time in GIMP saddens me and frightens me too. For example, Irfanview will automatically detect the real file from an image file and see if the extension might not be wrong, and offer to rename it. Irfanview has a very pleasant resize dialog. It has a very pleasant rotate dialog. And by far the most used feature for me is the ability to select and then immediately crop to that selection. First, GIMP takes much longer to start. Its various windows have always been annoying unless you take pains to put it on its own desktop. Now I'm in KDE and KSnapshot has not been bound yet to a shortcut. Now I can copy the screenshot I just made, and paste it into GIMP. But it is not clear what action I should use, either Paste or Paste as New Image, but both do the same thing in this case. Now I have to find the toolbox window that has become hidden somewhere, so I have to find it on the taskbar. Now I can select, and then look for the crop feature. Strangely enough, it is in the "image" menu and not in the "edit" menu even though cutting and cropping are really similar operations. But one changes the image, and the other changes the ...no that's not true. Cutting also changes the image. So the whole program doesn't make sense to me. And if I have to use this program for this regular task, my productivity is severly hindered. So, in general you do not mention any special or amazing tools. Would I be able to do all of my work using that toolset you mention? Absolutely not. Absolutely astoundingly not. Also, appliances running Linux is not at all the same thing as a desktop Linux PC. My router uses Linux. My NAS uses Linux. I do not consider that any form of an equivalent thing. >> Linux is a great waste of time for me if it doesn't amount to anything >> tangible. > Okay. Sounds like you ought to just give it up? When you don't have a > need. I mentioned that it does amount to something tangible for me. But really the reason I have it installed at this point is because Windows 8 had become so dysfunctional (this current installation) so fast that I couldn't even use it to enlarge my partition and upgrade to 10. And I got fed up and Installing Linux was easier. I would have done so anyway probably, I just wanted to perhaps test Windows 10 on this PC as well, I don't know. Right now I seem to be spending most or all of my time DISCUSSING LINUX which is what always happens the moment I use it. And if it's not that, I might be trying to improve it with bash scripts or whatever. Other than that I am still doing regular stuff like email and YouTube, but less so. In general the fun stuff begins to fade away the moment I enter a Linux environment. It is just not very stimulating to actually do something that is rich and sexy. Instead I look at this ugly screen and don't feel like doing anything. But I was not worried about my own choice. I'm not concerned about my own choice. I was only seeking for you people to understand it, or to understand the choices of real people. Instead of what you think their reasons are.... :-/. Today I am mostly in Linux due to my quest for writing apps and also currently conveniently because Windows 8 was getting corrupt big time. Other than that it is pleasant to be around some bash scripts now and again. There is also the benefit of being able to upload some stuff to Github or Bitbucket that I haven't come around to yet. Some things are easier to do in Linux or something you will easier start doing because the environment is more amenable to it. Things that are easier to do in Linux are: - command line work (as with Git) - command line work (as with shellscripting) - command line work (as with quickly editing various files) - installing lots of programs and games For some reason in Linux I try to install everything that I can. The more games I have available, for instance, the more likely I am to play any one of them when I feel like it. In Windows I don't really need that, it's easy enough. If I do need it, I can do it at a moment's notice. In Linux you need to do it ahead of time. - editing PHP files. For some reason I only ever edit PHP files using Vi from a shell. Apart from that, I really have to think what else. It basically comes down to development work. The type that you need a console for. There are no advantages really to the actual desktop environment. Apart maybe from being able to set up network resources in a better way (Dolphin places, fixed mounts points, etc.). >> Windows is bliss except for the current day problems. > Okay - it's your choice you know. Well, I am certainly not trying to > talk you into switching to Linux. It wasn't a choice. I was stating some facts. The choice to prefer Windows for many things is not a choice, it is a preference. >> So it is not about Windows vs. Linux for me. > Hmm, you might want to re-read what you've written here, to me it sounds > like it is _exactly_ about that for you. After all of what I've explained, you still think that. That's what it is for YOU. I care about the individual things I can benefit from. Not the entire whole of any one operating system. This is not some kind of disjunct, non-overlapping "choice" we have to make. Apart from the fact that you usually have to "collapse" your preferences into making a hard choice of which OS to install. But that is just the end result. That is not what I start out with. >> If it is not about programming (or system design) to ME there is >> little benefit to Linux for the average user. > But we're not comparing. Just make a choice. Why would I need to? And for whom? For you? You want me to be either in the Windows or in the Linux camp. It doesn't work that way. You still don't understand what it means to take from something what you like, and throw away the rest. I don't think you know what being eclectic means, for instance. That's more or about the exact word that describes it. It is the opposite of being religious about something. I do not have to choose anything for you. I will choose whatever I want, and I am already doing so. Just the fact that you are telling me to make a choice, makes it obvious you don't care about real practical choices. You want someone to make an ideological choice. >> And you can say that's not true but regular folk just don't become >> interested out of their own appraisal just like that. > I agree. Just like they don't become "interested" in Windows or Mac > either. They generally have a need to satisfy, that's all. Then > they'll go to Mediamarkt and buy themselves a computer. That's not true. That's again like saing that those needs are not real needs. Or that those wants are not real wants. As if wanting something and becoming interested in something are opposite concepts. This is called "reduction". You are trying to reduce actual wants and desires into something that doesn't mean anything other than some mechanical need. People DO become interested in a Mac. Usually they have no reason to become interested in Windows because it is all around. Same as you can become interested in either an iPhone or a Samsung. And this is not some cold, rational, economical need that you imply it is. You are describing it as something sterile. I am saying and telling you it can be very much an alive thing. A vivid thing. Actual love for something. You are trying to imply that it is devoid of love, that it is some sterile mechanical thing. They have some need, they meet it, but they don't care about it either way. No. People love their phones. And some people do become interested in Linux (usually Ubuntu). It happens. Out of their own, yes. Because they recognise it can help them fulfil that need, yes. It is the same as love. Because people recognise it can give them something, help them ahead on their life journey. It's a recognition. But most people are just content with Windows, that's just the way it is. That is not due to some evil marketing scheme. It is not due to people spreading lies about Linux. It is not even due to Linux not being exposed or visible enough. For the largest part it is simply because it holds no appeal. Conversely, if the situation was reversed. And Windows had 5% market share. It would probably not take more than 10 years for them to reach 50%, unless something else came about that in that void would have a chance to succeed. It would be a curious but rather terrible situation. I guess. >>>> Why are you trying to disrupt what he does, or rather, why are you >>>> trying to place doubt in it, why are you questioning his motives, >>>> why are you assuming bad motives here? >>> I'm doing neither, I just think measuring Linux against Windows >>> belongs in the past. >> And this is then reason to obstruct what he is trying to do by not >> helping but instead raising questions and criticism as to what he is >> doing. >> >> That's like saying "Hey, can I get a burger?" and then someone that >> sells the burgers says "Why do you even want a burger? I don't get it. >> Get something else." > To stick to your terminology - I don't sell burgers, I just eat them. > If you want a burger or discuss the ingredients, go to McDonalds :-) That's again like saying: I'm fine with what you want, as long as you don't want it in the planet I'm living in. And again, you're shoving someone off (in this language you just used). If you had any decency, you would listen to a person coming explicitly to you, instead of telling them to go somewhere else. >> If I am to use Linux, I will take everything I can from other sources >> to enhance it. >> If I am to use Windows, I will take everything I can from other >> sources to enhance it. >> If I am to use OS X, I will take everything I can from other sources >> to enhance it. > It seems to me that you only have a real chance with item#1 on that > list. That might be true. Although there is cygwin and gnuwin32, and no Windows user ever complains about that. It is clear changing Windows is a no-go, because it is their product. OS X can use Wine though. And, OS X has a terminal. Guild Wars 2 runs in OS X by way of some Wine derivative. You can use Bash in Windows but it doesn't work so well. The whole reason to incorporate stuff into Linux is because you can (and because it's needed) (Don't forget that). Any employee in Microsoft or Apple might advocate internally to steal stuff from Linux, though. So you know, the principle still stands. >> So I don't even agree that it would be off-topic. General Linux >> discussions in that sense are not off-topic here. Right? >> Agree? > Sure, to some extent. It's probably best to be constructive though, > otherwise it's just rambling, and that is better done on > opensuse-offtopic, I suggest. You wouldn't be a Linux user if you didn't tell me to go elsewhere, in conclusion. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse] Where Is Wayland?
by sdm 30 Mar '16

30 Mar '16

KDE's Smart window placement always annoying me where it randomly scatters windows you open where it thinks you want it, which always it NOT where I want the window. IIRC X doesn't support remembering the positioning of where windows were after closing them, as does Microsoft Windows since probably what, Windows 95 or 98? I always set it to centered (Window Actions and Behavior > Advances) which works for the most part, but I'm assuming Wayland will solve most or all of these issues. But Wayland looks to be severely delayed; what is going on with that project and when can we expect it? I thought it was supposed to be shipping already a long time ago, but every time they say "it's coming" it never happens, and the current Wayland beta on openSUSE is a total disaster and barely runs on any GPU I've tried it on. The fact that Wayland barely works and X is a hodge-podge disaster based on code from 1983, just further prooves that Linux (and this includes openSUSE) on the desktop, when we're comparing graphics and GUI's, is behind Windows and has a LONG way to go until it's "feature complete" on on par with Windows. How much longer are we all going to have to wait, and by that time how much further ahead will Windows be? Don't be a fanboy, be a realist. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse] who was saying openSUSE and microsoft where evil?
by jdd 30 Mar '16

30 Mar '16

http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-and-canonical-partner-to-bring-ubunt… or may be this is some days too early? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse] [opensuse-factory] gpg over ssh: decryption failed: No secret key
by Edwin Aponte 30 Mar '16

30 Mar '16

Hi, If I try to decrypt a file through an ssh connection (from Ubuntu 12.04) to OS Tumbleweed, I get: gpg --require-secmem -d foo.gpg gpg: AES256 encrypted data gpg: cancelled by user gpg: encrypted with 1 passphrase gpg: decryption failed: No secret key but at no moment I am asked for the password. Previously, I just got a password request in "text format". Has any one seen something similar? Thanks, Edwin. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse] oSC16 - Organizing Team Meeting 8 Notes
by ddemaio 30 Mar '16

30 Mar '16

Hi All, Below is the link to the notes for this week's openSUSE Conference Organizing Meeting. The key topic discussed this week was the keynotes and planned structure. The following is what we currently have planed for aligning the dates: Keynote June 22 - Aaron Seigo or Georg Greve (suggested) June 23 - Frank Karlitschek (Planned) June 24 - Norman Fraser, Ph.D. (Planned) June 25 - Michael Miller (Planned) June 26 - Meeting with the Board (suggested) Structure June 22 - SUSE Labs (suggested)/ SaltStack (suggested)June 23 - oSC16 / ownCloud (confirmed) June 24 - oSC16 / Kolab (suggested) / ownCloud June 25 - oSC16/ Kolab/ ownCloud Meet Up/ CoderDojo (kids program) June 26 - Docker Meetup (suggested) If you have any concerns with the keynote dates or the planned structure, please let me know ASAP. v/r Doug week 8 notes - http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-project/2016/opensuse-proje… week 7 notes - http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-project/2016/opensuse-proje… week 6 notes - http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-project/2016/opensuse-proje… week 5 notes - http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-project/2016/opensuse-proje… week 4 notes - http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-project/2016/opensuse-proje… week 3 notes - http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-project/2016/opensuse-proje… week 2 notes - http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-project/2016/opensuse-proje… week 1 notes - http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-project/2016/opensuse-proje…

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[opensuse] 13.1 boots after online update, but no login window - fixed
by Roger Price 30 Mar '16

30 Mar '16

This posting reports a problem and a fix for 13.1 after a YaST Online Update. After the update I rebooted to see the screen decorated with the chameleon but no login window. I run 13.1 on a Dell Precision T7500 using the nvidia driver for the NVIDIA G73 [GeForce 7600 GS] graphics card. uname -a reports: Linux titan 3.12.53-40-desktop #1 SMP PREEMPT Thu Feb 25 06:26:23 UTC 2016 (b2ce64e) x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux /var/log/Xorg.0.log reports: [48.227] (II) LoadModule: "nvidia" [48.227] (II) Loading /usr/lib64/xorg/modules/updates/drivers/nvidia_drv.so [48.301] (II) Module nvidia: vendor="NVIDIA Corporation" [48.301] compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0 [48.301] Module class: X.Org Video Driver [48.315] (EE) NVIDIA: Failed to load the NVIDIA kernel module. Please check your [48.315] (EE) NVIDIA: system's kernel log for additional error messages. Nvidia documentation at /usr/share/doc/packages/x11-video-nvidiaG02/html/commonproblems.html suggests checking dmesg, but neither dmesg nor journalctl -k has anything relevant. I found three possible recovery actions - Recovery Action 1. Site http://gruz.org.ua/en/tech-blog/linux-notes/15-opensuse-13-1-hangs-on-loadi… recommends * Login in Recover mode, go to yast and remove unneded kernels. * Or, as an option, select to boot with the proper kernel version, not with the latest one Recovery Action 2. The opensuse article "NVIDIA drivers no longer working after kernel update" for 13.2 at https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:NVIDIA_troubleshooting#NVIDIA_drivers_no_longer… says "If the NVIDIA drivers were installed on openSUSE 13.2 before the kernel was updated to 3.16.7-13-desktop, the driver may no longer work. The reason for that is known and documented in boo#925437. The solution is to reinstall the kernel module used." Bugzilla – Bug 925437 multiple nvidia-*-kmp-* are installed during a kernel update for the same kernel flavour https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=925437 /boot contains previous vmlinuz-3.11.10-29-desktop and current vmlinuz-3.12.53-40-desktop. Recovery Action 3. Bugzilla – Bug 925437 Comment 24 Michael Jenkinson 2016-03-10 01:18:00 UTC > This issue has now extended to 13.1 evergreen with todays (08.Mar.16) > kernel update. (Linux 3.12.53-40-desktop openSUSE 13.1 (Bottle) (x86_64) > Likely the same as same symptoms and resolution: > After new kernel install booted to a default low screen resolution. > When I booted back into previous 3.11 kernel all was well > Resolved by forced refresh of all installed NVIDIA drivers via YaST. I choose Recovery Action 3 and attempted a forced refresh of installed NVIDIA drivers using YaST (the ">" option) nvidia-computeG02 nvidia-gfxG02-kmp-desktop x11-video-nvidiaG02 xf86-video-nv I rebooted to see the login window. /var/log/Xorg.0.log now reports that module nvidia is correctly loaded. Problem solved. Roger

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[opensuse] How can wlan be enabled?
by oszko＠chem.u-szeged.hu 30 Mar '16

30 Mar '16

Hi all, I cannot make wifi. Upon booting I have an unsupported splx structure message.This is related to the iwlwifi driver. I followed the advice found on some pages but none of them worked. Rfkill list says: 0: asus-wlan: Wireless LAN Soft blocked: no Hard blocked: no 1: asus-bluetooth: Bluetooth Soft blocked: yes Hard blocked: no 3: phy0: Wireless LAN Soft blocked: no Hard blocked: yes ip l says 1: lo: <LOOPBACK,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN mode DEFAULT group default link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00 2: eth0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST,UP,LOWER_UP> mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast state UP mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000 link/ether 2c:56:dc:bf:08:f3 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff 3: wlan0: <BROADCAST,MULTICAST> mtu 1500 qdisc noop state DOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000 link/ether 10:02:b5:57:01:07 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff ifconfig wlan0 up says: SIOCSIFFLAGS: Operation not possible due to RF-kill How can I enapble wifi. The chip is recognized by lspci. Thanks, Albert ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner(a)opensuse.org

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Fwd: Re: [opensuse] Where Is Wayland?
by Xen 30 Mar '16

30 Mar '16

Per Jessen schreef op 29-03-16 20:00: > Xen wrote: > >> If I am allowed to say anything: >> >> Per Jessen schreef op 29-03-16 19:21: >>> sdm wrote: >>> >>>> The fact that Wayland barely works and X is a hodge-podge disaster >>>> based on code from 1983, just further prooves that Linux (and this >>>> includes openSUSE) on the desktop, when we're comparing graphics and >>>> GUI's, is behind Windows and has a LONG way to go until it's >>>> "feature complete" on on par with Windows. >>> Why bother comparing? If you like Windows, use it, if you like >>> Linux, use it. I've been running my business without Windows for >>> about ten years. >> What if you don't like any of them and want the one you like most to >> be improved? > Then you've got to go there and try to help/promote it. That's what he's doing. And you're trying to shut it down. >> That's the same argument as "If you don't like this country, you don't >> have to live in it". It's another form of saying "GTFO if you don't >> care about us". It is a selfish act to say something like that. The >> person who says that is usually fully aware that life somewhere else >> is not going to be better. > He ought to complain and then start helping improving his own situation. His own situation is dependent on the situation of Linux (and everything else in the world). We are not isolated puppets living meaningless lives. If we improve Linux we improve our own lives. If we want to start improving stuff, we often have to get other heads turning in our direction as well. We often need the help and support of other people, or at least the willingness to do so. Linux was not created by a single person. Then it is completely stupid to suggest that if anyone wants to improve it, he has to do it alone. The only thing you can do on your own, is not very much at all. That's why you reach out to people. Complaining is part of the solution. >> WHY CRITICISE not only what he says, but also his act of saying it? > Because ANY COMPARISON with Windows is pointless. Maybe 10-15 years ago, > but not anymore. Linux is alive and kicking, running most of the > world's servers, not to mention the smartphones, and we have multiple > desktop environments to choose from. Today you have little reason for > staying with Windows if you don't want or have to. There _are_ > exceptions, but they are few and far between. (I'm ignoring games). This is just not true and you are not hearing it. People are telling you and then you tell them to shut up (perhaps in less sincere or nicer words). If this is your point of reference to begin with, that what anyone else says is wrong and false, well, then maybe you have been shutting your ears to serious complaints for a long time. BECAUSE you are stifling the act of complaining itself. And hence you claim to be knowing everyone's perspective already, or any perspective that would could or should ever matter..... You are saying "there is no point in complaining, because your experience is wrong, and I already know what I need to hear, which is everything that anyone could ever know or need to hear". No. If someone complains, there is a reason to. It is because he wants you to hear or see something that you are in denial about. Trying to shut people up is exactly what you would do if you were in denial about it. Wrong? You say there are no valid complaints to begin with. How do you know? Do you know everyone's experience? Do you know all there is to know? You do not even have the perspective or the frame of reference to be able to understand this person. All of what you say here is irrelevant. People are not talking about the server world and about Android. And all you have to say about the desktop is "and we have multiple desktop environments to choose from". That is not the hallmark of success. That is the hallmark of poverty, because the only thing you can attest to is a bit of choice, but not any form of quality. If there were, you would have mentioned it. Because the idea or fact (perhaps) that there might be several or even a great many desktop environments that could all be equally as poor, is completely congruent with your statement. Yes I have the choice of 10 types of food, but they are all vegetables coming from Spain. I mean, that is not a statement about quality at all. "Today you have little reason for staying with Windows if you don't want or have to." That's what you think. That's not what the world agrees on. And no, that is not just because of bad promotion or bad publicity. You really think that? Jeez. Wake up. Get a life. It is not what I think. The only reason I came to Linux today is because of Calligra. Yes at this moment I have Kubuntu 16.04 installed here as the only OS. Things I have lost: - pretty environment - ability to play some games - usually no worries about permissions with whatever I do in my own system - superior ability to encrypt using TrueCrypt - overall comfort in being able to do whatever I want - some favourite tools (Irfanview) - problem free existence with regards to the common operation of the OS Things I have gained: - Calligra - more useful for me to use Steam OS (environment) - ..... - not sure what else, there are no other advantages for me presently. Things I have also gained: - a lot of headaches - I have cried because of this system - Dolphin kept crashing when I opened its settings, and when it did open, the settings I needed were no longer there, but are now KDE wide apparently -- or at least located there, which I had to find out by way of IRC - it is easier to use IRC on Linux - it took me at least 20 minutes to get my sound working - the operating system doesn't play any sounds when you log in or exit, which is disconcerting to me and makes me feel alienated and isolated - I have spent at least a day setting this system up and it will take much longer - Linux in general requires much more investment in getting the system you want. Investing seems to be what you do on Linux. - Steam works, but it took me several hours to get my first game running (due to nVidia driver bug) - Steam works, but it took me at least half an hour longer to get my second game running (due to nVidia driver bug) - the third game runs in Wine (POL) but renders my system inoperational as X.org uses 100% CPU of one core. - it keeps pestering me with updates. I have now hidden the update icon. - overall I feel horrid because everything is so ugly. - one other benefit is Clementine - there are all these Akonadi apps, but I stay away from them as far as I can. - I am currently writing something in LibreOffice, but I think it is hideous too, I have a real hard time finding anything I can write in (Wordpad on Windows works best thus far, and I use BlueGriffon) - lack of a good writing environment is one of the biggest problems in my life. Maybe the only one. - I wanted to develop for Calligra, but it didn't work out in my life personally. - Most and any or all wikis are also usually quite hideous with their themes. Doesn't compare to any popular WordPress theme at ALL. - Here is a quote from someone some time ago on #kubuntu chat: "And my wife is incapable of using linux even though I don't understand why. It's not like Facebook is any different on here." - The only reason samba (eventually) works better on Linux is because of a bug in Windows. (and I kinda like the places in Dolphin). [[ It is now possible in my KDE to "add a network folder" but it doesn't seem to add it anywhere persistent. I do not see it in my mounts. It is not possible to user-mount something in a user-tree, like you can (ostensibly) do in Windows without it asking for administrative rights ]]. But after you've set it up in fstab ---- not something you can expect an ordinary user to do ---- it is very pleasant and always available. However, bla. - even something like Firefox is less visually appealing (at least in Breeze) than on Windows - I have changed my theme to Air because it is the only thing that will actually honour the Oxygen icons - I am not doing anything meaningful yet in this system except bitch with people on mailinglists about Linux. Whenever I use Linux, 50% of my time seems to go into using Linux or talking about Linux. Whenver I am using Windows, 5% of my time goes into using Windows or talking about Windows. Linux is a great waste of time for me if it doesn't amount to anything tangible. And thus far, it has been investment and more investment, but it doesn't allow me to meet girls ;-). Windows is bliss except for the current day problems. And I don't care so much more about or for Windows when it comes to development. When I was young, I was a Delphi developer. I don't care about .NET, I don't care about C#, I don't care about Delphi.NET. I don't care so much (or at all) about making Windows applications. Been there, done that. I care about Java (or at least I used to) and I care about PHP (or at least I used to). I might get to care about Python (or at least that was my planning). All of these things you can do on Linux and sometimes or perhaps you can do them better here. I don't like the Windows PowerShell. But I do like Bash for the most part. In general I really like Bash. So it is not about Windows vs. Linux for me. That's like having to choose between your father and your mother, but only one of them. Windows has perks, and Linux has perks. But usually Windows has more of them, depending on what I am doing in my life at that particular moment. I hate dual booting and I'm trying virtualisation these last times but I don't have enough RAM on this system and not enough money to buy it. I may want to try to achieve KVM with graphics-card-passthrough. It is possible to run Windows in KVM with 100% performance on the graphics card, kinda provided you have two monitors ..... :S. No, you need a monitor that can be dual-attached. You put Linux on the onboard GPU, and then you put Windows on the discrete GPU, and then you switch input on the monitor. Then you don't have to bother with gaming in Linux in that sense. Anyway. - So just to summarize for ME: - Windows plusses: + pretty + games + easy - Linux plusses: + ugly (so you can improve it) + development + experimenting with different OS setups + a slight few applications - Windows minuses: - not really any - present day Windows does not have much advantage to me except the app store, being connected - Windows 8 is terrible with memory management - Windows 10 is not dependable - I don't use any of the new features except OneDrive - there is a bug in mounting shares that is terribly annoying - permission management is often a nightmare if you want to change anything in C:\Program Files - System Restore is unpredictable - the tools in the setup DVD for system recovery are horrible - they don't even work if you have rebooted your system instead of shutting down (flagged FS) - BitLocker is nonsense and TrueCrypt is not getting developed - software raid is equally as stupid as in Linux, and I think even more so. - the installer has been dumbed down as to not being able to create good partitions anymore. That said, Windows is a stable platform even if Microsoft is trying to ruin it, and the Windows 10 user interface is not bad at all if only the problems would go away. If I had to pick any interface for daily use it would probably be Windows 10 provided it actually keeps working. Next in line would probably be KDE, although I don't mind using Windows 8, it's just not very helpful what they did to it. - on Windows 8 apparently you can't use OneDrive while having a local account, but I know that at least on Windows 10 you can. - upgrades are free, but I am still not sure how well you can use Windows 10 on completely new systems starting from a Windows 7/8 license. This kinda bugs your ability to create Windows 10 images (starting from those licenses). So it should be clear that I am not either Windows or either Linux. I would never choose Linux for purely OS use, but I don't know. If it is not about programming (or system design) to ME there is little benefit to Linux for the average user. Linux has ALWAYS been a place where people can design the shit they want. And universities use it for that. But universities generally do not use it for regular normal-computer-person courses. In general I believe any university will still have Windows boxes on most of its systems if it can afford it. There is just no /REASON/ to go with Linux other than perhaps the cost. For an every day user it HAS no benefits. Like, what is it doing better than Windows? What is it doing better than MacOS? I see 99% detriment and 1% advantage. And that balance might shift the more you become a computer expert or programmer or system's designer. So you really need to be a computer engineer to use Linux in the first place. And you can say that's not true but regular folk just don't become interested out of their own appraisal just like that. That's not an issue with promotion. It is an issue with not having any feeling for actual user experience, graphics design, and all of that. The problem is not what people say about Linux. (Well in a general sense the problem is what Linux fanboys say about Linux). (Which is not what it is). But the problem is simply that there is 80-95% attention on BAD technical designs (I might add!) -- 80-95% of the "LOVE" goes into making stuff that in practice and in principle performs some function, and 5-20% is directed to actually making it work well, or to be user-friendly, or to actually be nice, or to actually be pretty, or to actually be something that will work longer than 2 years. >> Why are you trying to disrupt what he does, or rather, why are you >> trying to place doubt in it, why are you questioning his motives, why >> are you assuming bad motives here? > I'm doing neither, I just think measuring Linux against Windows belongs > in the past. And this is then reason to obstruct what he is trying to do by not helping but instead raising questions and criticism as to what he is doing. That's like saying "Hey, can I get a burger?" and then someone that sells the burgers says "Why do you even want a burger? I don't get it. Get something else." >> Why are you (and people do this constantly here, in this Linux world >> of ours, not just here on OpenSUSE, everywhere) --- why do you people >> constantly bug everyone who tries to change something? > I apologise, I did not realise the OP was trying to change something. > There is plenty of change going on in openSUSE, often much more than I > would like, but I have to accept it. Well thank you for that. But not all change is good either. In these worlds (I guess OpenSUSE too) what is happening is often what the people in power want to happen, and the people in power are not those who criticise linux, but those who revel in it. I don't like the changes either. I don't like SystemD (hate it to my bones) and I also don't like the design and operation of say NetworkManager. Well these are two big things. I don't like Breeze in KDE. I'm not sure I dislike Plasma 5 and at this point I like it but. You know, I am a person with 2 million good ideas of what I can do to change stuff, or to make it more the way I like it to be. In principle I have no lack of business ideas either. If conditions were in any way more to my benefit (at least the way I see it) or more factually, amenable to currently (or at all in my life) doing the things I really want to do.... I mean I have absolutely no shortage of projects ever that I know would actually improve stuff for myself and for many many people around me. But what Linux is doing is working against me today, for the largest part, from what I can see and perceive now. To the point that I think my missions and objectives are becoming unattainable or untenable. >> Why are you constantly trying to break down every initiative if it >> starts with the slightest of a negative appraisal of the current state >> of affairs? Why do you do that? WHY? > Which initiative are you referring to here? It can be anything really. Me myself, I have ideas to improve: - the FHS or at least the file/folder structure of Linux - the permissions structure as it relates to group permissions not actually being used. - the default setup of a lot of things that are not very .... convenient for anyone being a regular user or doing something more along the likes of regular users - the problem (relating to point 2) that really using your linux system means being root most of the time - I can really improve any application that has a bad interface, no biggy. - perchance, even the backup/restoration abilities of general linux users - a partitioning scheme that is more akin to what Windows has, allowing actual system/data separation - a betterly scoped command line environment more akin to what MS DOS was at the beginning of my time here on this planet more or about - a better boot environment and (more simplistic) before-we-enter-graphics-mode system that actually empowers the user instead of letting him feel helpless, completely helpless with anything - a better model or even actual implementations for server management and other configuration file management especially as it relates to e.g. Apache - numerous, numerous other things. If I was able to achieve all of this, I would be living in complete heaven for myself and many many other people as well. >>>> How much longer are we all going to have to wait, and by that time >>>> how much further ahead will Windows be? >>> Why does it matter? I don't see a race. >>> >>> >> It matters because the comparison reveals the field, the scope, the >> dimension. > Only when you believe Linux and Windows are actually in a competition > together. I think they once were, but not any more. No. Competing for what? That only makes sense if you have a stake in the result, the outcome of that competition. My only stake in this is having the system I want. Whether that is Linux or Windows, is not really relevant to me. I want my SYSTEM. I want my [S]ystem. I want my System. So yeah. I want to realize what I know exists, somewhere. If I am to use Linux, I will take everything I can from other sources to enhance it. If I am to use Windows, I will take everything I can from other sources to enhance it. If I am to use OS X, I will take everything I can from other sources to enhance it. I am impartial to the system I actually use. They are all the same to me. Except that there is ONE system that is actually me, and it only lives in side of my head in that sense. It is inside of my heart. My head and my heart are for the largest part connected in that sense, according to me :p. > TBH, I don't think this discussion belongs here, if you want to > continue, I would recommend taking it up on opensuse-offtopic. > To late for that. And again, that's what I've been saying. "Sure you can do it, just not here". "There is bound to be some other planet you can do it on. Good bye now, and be a nice chap". So I don't even agree that it would be off-topic. General Linux discussions in that sense are not off-topic here. Right? Agree? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner(a)opensuse.org

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