March 2009 - openSUSE Testing - openSUSE Mailing Lists

Building the OpenSUSE testing team
by Alberto Passalacqua 14 Apr '09

14 Apr '09

Hello, some time ago I proposed the creation of a community based testing team for openSUSE pre-releases. I did not know of the existance of some infrastructure already in place, line the #opensuse-testing IRC channel and the opensuse-testing(a)opensuse.org mailing list, as I did not know of the work done by Holgie, daemon and their friends! Anyway, after some discussion with Zonker, I have been encouraged to move the topic here officially. I'm sorry for the repetitions that happened in different mailing lists. I'll try to do better next time! The main idea was to create a group of stable testers to deeply test openSUSE functionalities on their machines, in order to catch annoying bugs earlier in the development stages, allowing the fixes to be done and tested again in a more timely and less rushed manner. It won't be easy, we need motivated volunteers and we have a lot to learn to do it the right way, but I think it is worth the effort, if we want to keep faith to the guiding principles, which states openSUSE aims to be "the most usable Linux distribution" (and not the most cutting edge one!). I summed up the motivations, a short problem analysis about the current status quo, and some proposal of solution in some slides you can download from here: http://en.opensuse.org/Testing_Team Any suggestion on how to start is more than welcome! With kind regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-testing] Building the OpenSUSE testing team
by Alberto Passalacqua 31 Mar '09

31 Mar '09

The "mediator" should be the board, for what I know. A. Il giorno mer, 01/04/2009 alle 08.41 +1200, Quentin Jackson ha scritto: > Nice to see we're all talking. With regards to communication, it's > been my experience that changes need to be agreed at an official level > and handed down as policy, entering Mr A J or perhaps someone similar. > Otherwise the community will just argue because let's face it, > developers do not think like everyday people, end of story. > Generalisation I know, but this isn't the dev list so I've said it > like that to make my point. Developers and Testers/user will never > agree on such matters because developers don't care about such > matters. There needs to be a mediator with authority to make these > changes actually happen/approve them publicly. > > Q > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-testing] Building the OpenSUSE testing team
by Quentin Jackson 31 Mar '09

31 Mar '09

Well if that isn't the type of answer we were expecting. No offence Andreas, but considering the issue (which I too have experienced to the point of feeling like the bug is actually blamed on me) perhaps we could take a more pro-active approach and send out an encouraging email to all the bug fixers to stop this from happening in the future, rather than pushing it back on the community whom are (in the bigger picture) powerless to do anything without someone like you picking it up for them. There really are a lot of people who try and try to help but just end up being alienated one way or another. I think a major part of Timian's point is that it got to 1-2 years old and why did that happen?! I'm sure you'll agree, If it was going to be a won't fix, that should have ideally happened before it got to 1-2 years old. Perhaps if you asked someone to review all the won'tfix resolutions you'd turn up quite a few examples for yourself instead of waiting for some member of the community whom is already alienated to turn something up for you? It's my opinion that this is one of the things that's really letting an otherwise awesome distro down. But based on all the feedback myself (and many others) have had, I'm not expecting it to change until someone like yourself decides to stick their boot in and organise it. Thanks for your below feedback in any case. Q >>> Andreas Jaeger <aj(a)suse.de> 03/27/09 3:11 AM >>> On Thursday 19 March 2009 19:10:07 Tilman Schmidt wrote: > Andreas Jaeger schrieb: > > On Thursday 19 March 2009 10:32:55 Tilman Schmidt wrote: > >> Apart from that, I must admit that my testing enthusiasm has been > >> somewhat dampened by a recent series of WONTFIX resolutions for > >> problems I reported, a few of them with closing remarks that seemed to > >> imply what I reported was "my problem". So I guess positive feedback > >> from developers that test reports are appreciated, taken seriously, > >> and the reported issues addressed, would go a long way in encouraging > >> more testers. > > > > If you have any concrete examples, let's discuss these. > > Ok: > > https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=234529 > - complete with patch and support offer, but after two years of waiting > it won't be merged because of "no resources for ISDN anymore" > > https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=302004 > - WONTFIXed after a year and a half of inactivity, with a comment I > frankly don't understand at all (except for the "send patch" bit) > > https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=309382 > https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=301997 > - seriously strange - I reported the problem as fixed, with no > reaction from anyone, then a year later it is "set to WONTFIX > because LATER and REMIND resolutions have been removed" > > https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=332696 > https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=239695 > - not recent, but perfect illustrations of the point I'm trying to > make Besides the first one, all are old examples. We have to become better and I hope we do - but people are also overloaded and they will not fix everything, some stuff also needs to go upstream. If in the future, you have concrete problems, please speak up - but I'm not following up with developers on old bugs. thanks for the list, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj(a)suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-testing] Building the OpenSUSE testing team
by Quentin Jackson 18 Mar '09

18 Mar '09

I agree with this, and furthermore, once it has stabilised often the kinds of fixes needed are no longer able to be done since there is a feature freeze on, at least that's been my experience. I've sat through entire cycles from alpha to gold and found major bugs that require more major rework but by the time someone looks at it, it's too late. I think we need a structure to adhere to that the developers also buy into so we know what to expect and where everybody stands. My advice, be prepared to argue, developers don't always see things the same way as the rest of mankind :) Q >>> Martin Schlander <martin.schlander(a)gmail.com> 03/19/09 12:25 AM >>> Tirsdag 17 marts 2009 18:23:53 skrev Alberto Passalacqua: > Any suggestion on how to start is more than welcome! I think the first thing we need is for developers/packagers to drop a line here, when they think something is ready for serious widespread testing. One big problem with the current situation is that noone knows what to test and when. One of the main reasons I usually don't test early alphas is that I expect everything to change dramatically later on anyway, hence thinking testing is probably pointless at that point anyway - but I guess some components _are_ ready for widespread testing and that point, we just need to know which. Additionally maybe some automation could be set up where openfate would spam this list when a new feature reaches a certain status, so as to let us know it might be something that needed testing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help(a)opensuse.org -- This message was scanned by ESVA and is believed to be clean. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-testing] Building the OpenSUSE testing team
by Alberto Passalacqua 17 Mar '09

17 Mar '09

Hi Quentin, please keep the discussion on the list and not only on my personal email. This said, your friend should report his problem on http://novell.bugzilla.org so that it can be investigated and fixed, if it depends on openSUSE. Bye, A. Il giorno mer, 18/03/2009 alle 10.54 +1200, Quentin Jackson ha scritto: > Maybe, but since opensuse lost all my data I'm loathed to put it on again. Incidentally, a friend of mine phoned me just this morning (someone who shall remain nameless but is rather notable in the worldwide linux community) and opensuse just killed his ntfs data after a kernel upgrade, go figure) I had already told him to ditch opensuse and move to sabayon and now he has. Why I tell you this is to give further encouragement to set this team up cause it's badly needed, from what I've seen it won't be long before the user base starts dropping like flies! (At least the skilled ones anyway). Opensuse has an incredible amount of potential, but the testing lets it down time and time again. I can help with ideas and things if you like, but since I'm not using opensuse any more I probably won't be able to help much with testing :) > > Q > > >>> Alberto Passalacqua <alberto.passalacqua(a)tin.it> 03/18/09 8:15 AM >>> > Hi, > > thanks for the encouragement! > > Actually openSUSE has an internal QA system, of which I don't know much > though. > > Would you be interested to be a tester or to help set the team up? The > testing wiki page needs much love! ;-) > > Anyway, stay tuned. The idea is to try to set a starting team for the > 11.2 cycle, and of course improve on the road. > > Regards. > A. > > Il giorno mer, 18/03/2009 alle 07.16 +1200, Quentin Jackson ha scritto: > > The lack of something like this and the result thereafter is part of what caused me to no longer use opensuse, with something like this in place, perhaps me and others will be back :) I therefore put my 2c worth in and encourage it. > > > > Q > > > > > > -- > This message was scanned by ESVA and is believed to be clean. > > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-testing] Building the OpenSUSE testing team
by Alberto Passalacqua 17 Mar '09

17 Mar '09

Hi, thanks for the encouragement! Actually openSUSE has an internal QA system, of which I don't know much though. Would you be interested to be a tester or to help set the team up? The testing wiki page needs much love! ;-) Anyway, stay tuned. The idea is to try to set a starting team for the 11.2 cycle, and of course improve on the road. Regards. A. Il giorno mer, 18/03/2009 alle 07.16 +1200, Quentin Jackson ha scritto: > The lack of something like this and the result thereafter is part of what caused me to no longer use opensuse, with something like this in place, perhaps me and others will be back :) I therefore put my 2c worth in and encourage it. > > Q > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-marketing] OpenSUSE testing team (fwd)
by Boyd Lynn Gerber 14 Mar '09

14 Mar '09

This really should also be on the openSUSE testing list. -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb(a)zenez.com> 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 14:20:34 -0500 From: Alberto Passalacqua <alberto.passalacqua(a)tin.it> To: opensuse-marketing(a)opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-marketing] OpenSUSE testing team Il giorno ven, 13/03/2009 alle 08.18 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua ha scritto: >> Any chance you could post the slides on the wiki? We can start driving >> the discussion a bit more if we can point people to the wiki. > > Yes, I'll add a link and point you there. Hi, I added the link to the slides here: http://en.opensuse.org/Testing_Team A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help(a)opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-testing+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-testing+help(a)opensuse.org

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