May 2003 - openSUSE Edu - openSUSE Mailing Lists

RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Local Squid DNS Resolving
by Dug Stokes 06 May '03

06 May '03

Yep, I changed the setting, (yes, it was the right one!), been tailing the log which works with IdentD (always has!) - and -k reconfigured, and also stopped and started it. Nothing. :( Thanks again, Dug -----Original Message----- From: Mark Evans [mailto:mpe@st-peters-high.devon.sch.uk] Sent: 06 May 2003 14:30 To: Dug Stokes Cc: 'suse-linux-uk-schools(a)suse.com' Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Local Squid DNS Resolving On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 01:49:10PM +0100, Dug Stokes wrote: > I've turned it on, but it doesn't appear in our logging - do you have > any ideas Mark? Is it logging at all? If not then most likely /var/log/squid does not exist or is not writable to the squid process. If it's logging something then are you sure you restarted squid or did "squid -k reconfigure" it does not automatically re-read its config file (unlike some other programs). -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Local Squid DNS Resolving
by Dug Stokes 06 May '03

06 May '03

I've turned it on, but it doesn't appear in our logging - do you have any ideas Mark? Thanks again, Dug -----Original Message----- From: Mark Evans [mailto:mpe@st-peters-high.devon.sch.uk] Sent: 06 May 2003 13:20 To: Thomas Adam Cc: Dug Stokes; 'suse-linux-uk-schools(a)suse.com' Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Local Squid DNS Resolving On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 12:26:24PM +0100, Thomas Adam wrote: > --- Dug Stokes <dst(a)gilberd.essex.sch.uk> wrote: > > > Thanks for everyone's help on the Perl script - it works fine. Just > > You're welcome, Dug :) > > > another > > quick one - is there any way for Squid to resolve DNS addresses for > > machines that are using it as a proxy - the clients are Win2K, but > > we have two DNS > > servers running - Just would be nice to have a name in the logs - its > > has > > the username using IdentD. > > Umm, IIRC, there are settings in /etc/squid.conf that allow you to > turn on resolution of DNS names. I *thought* that this was done > automatically? In most distributions the default is off. The relevent option would be "log_fqdn on" for identd lookups the option is "ident_lookup_access allow all" -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

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ADSL speeds into school
by Alan Davies 06 May '03

06 May '03

I noticed that Demon internet now offer better contention ratios than most (all?) other broadband providers. We are currently with pavilion (part of the easynet group) and although speeds were great a couple of years ago we have noticed a steady decline in service - which is barely better than ISDN rates around Lunch times. I assume this is down to contention - although we also use their filtered proxy service which has been a constriction in the past and I suspect that they use a transparent proxy on the non filtered service (is there a way to test for this?) Not only might it be possible to get better bandwidth but Demon appears to be cheaper too (certainly less than we are paying Easynet for a 2MB service). Of course with contention ratios of 5:1 it could still be sluggish if the other 4 users are also heavy on usage (as would be many schools). They offer a 1:1 service - but at 600ukp per month it would be not be much more to go for a leased line and get the benefit of symmetric speeds. Anyone any comments on Internet access speeds (I know its not Linux specific - although we do use squid as our local proxy on a linux box). -- Alan Davies Head of Computing Birkenhead School

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Perl Stuff :S
by Dug Stokes 06 May '03

06 May '03

Hi! Has anyone got five minutes to spare to be able to tell me how to get a list of files in the current directory with <option></option> around each file? So far I've written; print "<select name=file><option>"; print `ls\n`; print "</option></select>"; But naturally, I need the <option> bit around each filename! Please help! Dug Stokes

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Local Squid DNS Resolving
by Dug Stokes 06 May '03

06 May '03

Thanks for everyone's help on the Perl script - it works fine. Just another quick one - is there any way for Squid to resolve DNS addresses for machines that are using it as a proxy - the clients are Win2K, but we have two DNS servers running - Just would be nice to have a name in the logs - its has the username using IdentD. Thanks again! Dug

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school network !!
by Edmond Sng 06 May '03

06 May '03

Hi, Has anyone tried using linux on their school network as PDC and package allocation, desktop control etc? I am looking for some other alternatives. Edmond

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Perl Stuff :S
by Robb Bloomfield 06 May '03

06 May '03

Don't know Perl well enough to tell you exactly, but load the results of your ls query into an array, and then do a for...each (smalltalk :p) for each entry. HTH some

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] ADSL speeds into school
by Robb Bloomfield 06 May '03

06 May '03

>> We are currently paying ?9k PA for a 2Mbit 1:1 through our LEA (!) Ours is 10k pa with a 4:1 contention. My MRTG stats show peaks at around the 4-500k range....

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free Open Source application adoption
by Chris Puttick 05 May '03

05 May '03

Seconded - particularly about experiences with WINE. We are funding a project starting in the summer, examining applications currently used in schools and ways to get them to run under Linux. It is assumed this will primarily be achieved through the use of WINE, hence any positive experiences others have already had will prevent the project wasting resources duplicating work. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Duncan To: SuSE mailing list for UK schools Sent: 5/5/03 10:31 AM Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free Open Source application adoption IMHO the primary factor that influences people when choosing an operating system is the availablity of applications for a particular platform. If computer users rely on a Windows only application, then there is little chance of a switch to Linux etc. until a viable alternative that runs on the proposed new operating system is available (I'm assuming that the app can't run using Wine or some other emulation). Are any of you actively trying to introduce apps like OpenOffice.org into your schools ? Are you using Wine ? If you are doing these things, I'd be interested to hear about your experiences. Regards Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com

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Free Open Source application adoption
by Chris Duncan 05 May '03

05 May '03

IMHO the primary factor that influences people when choosing an operating system is the availablity of applications for a particular platform. If computer users rely on a Windows only application, then there is little chance of a switch to Linux etc. until a viable alternative that runs on the proposed new operating system is available (I'm assuming that the app can't run using Wine or some other emulation). Are any of you actively trying to introduce apps like OpenOffice.org into your schools ? Are you using Wine ? If you are doing these things, I'd be interested to hear about your experiences. Regards Chris

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started
by Chris Puttick 04 May '03

04 May '03

What do you think might change their mind? Ignoring price, TCO and better support choices, would any of the following influence selection of a replacement: additional functionality; intuitive user interface; improved reliability; richer information; better acccessibility. All input welcome. Chris -----Original Message----- From: David Bowles To: suse-linux-uk-schools(a)suse.com Sent: 5/2/03 10:35 PM Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started One aspect that's of crucial importance with regard to the potential for success with a replacement for SIMS and many other aspects of IT for schools is the deeply-entrenched culture of teaching and school management. Schools tend to operate on a strictly higherarchical basis, with those whose job involves actually working with management resources (such as SIMS) and curriculum resources usually having little or no say in the choice of which resources are used. Furthermore, the idea of choosing something on the basis of its actual merits is a complete anachronism within many schools, as the basis on which these make decisions about as far from a meritocracy as you can get. Instead politics tends to rule supreme, with the quality of the education provided and the working conditions of staff lower down the school higherarchy rarely a priority consideration. Yes there are opportunities for innovation and the adoption of open source resources within schools, but a 'me too' replacement for the too well established 'SIMS' system is unlikely to be one of them. David Bowles TeacherLab / Education Support -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com

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Re. SchoolTool project
by Chris Duncan 04 May '03

04 May '03

Mark Shuttleworth who has initiated the SchoolTool project wrote:- 1. Free vs Proprietary. A regular debate. My own position is that a free (as in speech) product gives anyone with the skills to make their own choices a useful option. From a support perspective it means sophisticated engineers have access to the source code so they can fix it themselves, and there are likely to be a variety of commercial organisations providing support for the product on a commercial basis because they have access to the guts of it, and can find and fix problems for a fee. SchoolTool has to be freely available under an open source licence to ensure that any school that wants to adopt it can do so without having to pay a licence fee. Those who are saying they prefer commercial support contracts have a point - we would be foolish to think everyone will prefer software libre, some people like the comfort (even if it's illusory) of a commercial licence and support relationship. That's why we also need to have the muscle to offer support contracts and commercial licences to those who want to. That's why we need the dual-licensing option. This will (I hope) also ensure the long-term sustainability of the project, a la MySQL. 2. Quality. There are a number of folks concerned with the quality of a non-commercial product. Well, many of us know that SOME free software projects have produced exceptional quality software. But the SchoolTool project has yet to prove itself in this regard. I'm willing to put a certain amount of resources into it to get it done, because I believe it could make a difference and be a success, but only time will tell. Let's work hard and then let history be the judge. We can't make any predictions here. 3. Switching costs. People have rightly identified that there are substantial barriers to switching, even if the new product is 'free' (of fees and restrictions). We will have to focus hard on those barriers if we want people to migrate, even if in OUR minds the product is just as capable, we need to ensure that it's perceived that way out in the wild.

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SchoolTool free software requirements gathering
by Chris Duncan 03 May '03

03 May '03

In order to get a better idea of the requirements for the SchoolTool application, it would be most helpful if user stories could be provided. A user story is a short description of a major feature of the proposed system written by the user, as opposed to a developer of the system. It typically has a title and is only a few sentences. Here is an example : Add New User ------------ A new user needs access to the system. They contact the system administrator, who records their first name, last name, phone number and email address. The new user's username must be unique. The new user can be given different access rights. These stories are collected and will form the basis of the system requirements. Later on in the development process more details are gathered so that the features can be implemented successfully. You can submit documentation (plain text or html) via the website: http://sourceforge.net/projects/schooltool Your help would be greatly appreciated. Regards Chris

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] personal laptops in schools
by Chris Puttick 03 May '03

03 May '03

Software on a personal laptop is not subject to an organisational audit. Good luck with your ADSL modem :-) -----Original Message----- From: Paul Sutton To: suse schools Sent: 5/3/03 10:29 AM Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] personal laptops in schools hi Just in a hypothetical situaion my personal laptop has both WIndows98 Se and Suse Linux 8.1 installed, what is the situation regarding using this in a school say I take it to work with me (if I was working say as a CA or LSA), do these get looked at under audits, just wanted to know. As soon as i get my ADSL modem working its bye bye Windows anyway. what do people think, paul -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com

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personal laptops in schools
by Paul Sutton 03 May '03

03 May '03

hi Just in a hypothetical situaion my personal laptop has both WIndows98 Se and Suse Linux 8.1 installed, what is the situation regarding using this in a school say I take it to work with me (if I was working say as a CA or LSA), do these get looked at under audits, just wanted to know. As soon as i get my ADSL modem working its bye bye Windows anyway. what do people think, paul

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started
by Chris Puttick 02 May '03

02 May '03

Sorry to continue the thread, but please read on or jump to the bottom of my mail): the point is this: a software solution can be supported by anyone with the technical skills necessary to read the source and implement any underlying solutions. This is equally true of closed or open source software. The more people with access to the source, the more people can support it at a high level (bug fix, enhance, document etc.). Ergo, open source software has the most possible support, not the least. The original copyright owners can leave the planet, the software can continue to develop and continue to be supported (Fetchmail I believe is a good example). I can see reasons for not changing from current solution in terms of user knowledge and efficacy of solution; there are none that stand on the support side. On other matters, your input would be highly useful as someone with experience of a rare solution - would you be willing to get involved on that basis? That's true for everyone else too. Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: simon(a)qec.carms.sch.uk To: SUSE Mailing List Sent: 5/2/03 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started <snip> As for what happens when companies disappear and can no longer support their products, ie RM, etc..what happens when people decide to change careers, sell out, move abroad or just feel like not bothering anymore ? Which does happen....we all use software and hardware that could potentially be on borrowed time. Open source, great, low cost software even better, but please dont bother coming out with a list of why i should and shouldnt do things, because as we all know each establishment is different, we all work different ways.

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Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started
by simon＠qec.carms.sch.uk 02 May '03

02 May '03

Previous email: OK, in this school we use RM Integris. First of all our staff use it constantly, it runs well, it has all the data they need if not too much data in some cases. We have support from our LEA for the product, although sometimes the support is slightly lacking but the job gets done eventually. My opinion, and this is all it is, is that we would not go to a free admin system because of the above, we know it, we use it, it works. Personally, when something goes wrong, i know who to point the finger at and who to contact. Would this be the same with an Open Source admin system and would a group volunteer themselves to be in the firing line of support and problem queries locally, as sometimes we have to have visits from the LEA to sort more complex problems. As it stands, i wouldnt want our admin team to switch to anything else. Not trying to dampen things, but these issues i feel are relevant and very important before any software is created. :) ------------------------------- Simon Davies Systems Manager Queen Elizabeth Cambria School Tel:01267236451 Fax:01267238224 www.queenelizabethcambria.com ------------------------------- This was my opinion, i dont expect anyone to agree with it. As for what happens when companies disappear and can no longer support their products, ie RM, etc..what happens when people decide to change careers, sell out, move abroad or just feel like not bothering anymore ? Which does happen....we all use software and hardware that could potentially be on borrowed time. Open source, great, low cost software even better, but please dont bother coming out with a list of why i should and shouldnt do things, because as we all know each establishment is different, we all work different ways. Also, a very interesting article in PC Pro this month about 'ditching Microsoft'. A lot of very valid arguments there, argued from a Linux corner and a Microsoft corner. Hope I didnt offend to many people, i am an active Linux(suse) user and supporter, but i have to think of my colleagues around me when bringing new ideas and systems online S

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started
by Chris Puttick 02 May '03

02 May '03

Not my project, I'm just a member... But currently it is assumed that the project will be Python and make use of ZODB and LDAP. ZODB can store its objects in the normal file system. There is unlikely to be an RDBMS (such as MySQL or Postgre) involved directly. For more information, see http://schooltool.sourceforge.net and to catch up on the technical discussions that have taken place see http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=32823 Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: richard(a)tortoise.demon.co.uk To: suse-linux-uk-schools(a)suse.com Sent: 5/2/03 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started Chris, What database are you planning to use for your project? regards Richard > A project has now been started to produce such a package. It is at the planning > stage and has need of volunteers to help define the requirements of the system > and assist with the construction of it. I am posting to this list because I am > convinced that the most effective way to produce a free software application of > this nature is to engage the education community in it's development from the > outset. > ----------------------- richard(a)tortoise.demon.co.uk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started
by Chris Puttick 02 May '03

02 May '03

What if RM decided to stop developing Integris? What would your school/LEA do then? RM already provide support for an open source package (Squid). You don't think they'd offer support for another package? This solution will be potentially as easy to support as Squid anyway. LEAs have already learnt to support more than one school solution; learning to support another will not be impossible. And a well-designed management system does not provide data, it provides information. Clearly, concisely and with much explanation as needed. Schools have yet to experience a good management system (home-grown ones I have no exposure to are granted an honourary exemption!), but they do exist in other industries. It's time we had one in education; why not have one that has no licence cost? -----Original Message----- From: simon(a)qec.carms.sch.uk To: Alan Davies Cc: SUSE Mailing List Sent: 5/2/03 10:08 AM Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started OK, in this school we use RM Integris. First of all our staff use it constantly, it runs well, it has all the data they need if not too much data in some cases. We have support from our LEA for the product, although sometimes the support is slightly lacking but the job gets done eventually. My opinion, and this is all it is, is that we would not go to a free admin system because of the above, we know it, we use it, it works. Personally, when something goes wrong, i know who to point the finger at and who to contact. Would this be the same with an Open Source admin system and would a group volunteer themselves to be in the firing line of support and problem queries locally, as sometimes we have to have visits from the LEA to sort more complex problems. As it stands, i wouldnt want our admin team to switch to anything else. Not trying to dampen things, but these issues i feel are relevant and very important before any software is created. Quoting Alan Davies <staff.asd(a)birkenhead.wirral.sch.uk>: > I'm not sure that 'free' is a good way to go here. > > Administration is a mission critical area of school function. As such > it > can't possibly rely > on goodwill of volunteers to find bugs and solve them - or to test new > versions rigorously. > > I am disappointed that the market is so dominated by a single supplier > - > SIMS (which we > don't use - we use Phoenix). > > In fact considering the high cost of SIMS I am surprised that there are > not > more competitors > out there - but the reality is that users once familiar with SIMS (and > having heared of SIMS) > are not ready to migrate to anything else whether technically better, > cheaper - or free. > > (A rather similar argument as to why Microsoft continues to dominate). > > I would be much in favour of some industry standard SQL based database > to > drive these > systems with suppliers providing mix and match module capability- but > that > would require > specifications laid down by Department of Education and such a scheme > would > end up being > more expensive than giving all schools SIMS, run years over due and not > work > properly as users required at the end. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Duncan" <chris.duncan(a)dsl.pipex.com> > To: <suse-linux-uk-schools(a)suse.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:37 PM > Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - > project has started > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have read messages on this list with interest over the last few > months. > A > > topic, which is of interest to me, has been raised on several > occasions, > > namely, the question of a free school administration software > package. > > > > A project has now been started to produce such a package. It is at > the > planning > > stage and has need of volunteers to help define the requirements of > the > system > > and assist with the construction of it. I am posting to this list > because > I am > > convinced that the most effective way to produce a free software > application of > > this nature is to engage the education community in it's development > from > the > > outset. > > > > If you would like to become involved please visit this site: > > > > http://schooltool.sourceforge.net > > > > and subscribe to the mailing list. > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com > > For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com > > > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com > For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com > > :) ------------------------------- Simon Davies Systems Manager Queen Elizabeth Cambria School Tel:01267236451 Fax:01267238224 www.queenelizabethcambria.com ------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started
by Chris Puttick 02 May '03

02 May '03

The SchoolTool project has allowed for support in the initial planning stages - read the pages, it's really well thought out... We just need more hands on deck to move things forward! -----Original Message----- From: Robert J Gautier To: Alan Davies Cc: suse-linux-uk-schools(a)suse.com Sent: 5/2/03 9:47 AM Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started <snip> You are better off when shopping for support for Free software because there can be a real market in those services; multiple providers who have to compete for your custom. Proper support is like an insurance policy: you pay someone to take some of the risk that the software will break. While I'm sure that Free software is the right way to go, perhaps the project that builds that software needs to address the issue of ongoing support - a revenue cost not simply for the right to use the software, but for keeping it working. A cost that competition might keep low. Bob G

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Software Patents
by Grainge, Derek 02 May '03

02 May '03

From: MJ Ray [mailto:markj@cloaked.freeserve.co.uk] > Are supporters of GNU and Linux use in education against the > introduction of software patents? They could be used to restrict use > of otherwise-available software. I thought that GNU differentiates between ownership and accessibility. How does Linus exert ownership over the kernel? All software is copyright the owner and that ownership needs to be asserted. The GNU licence allows others to make use of the product, hopefully in an attributable way. But GNU specifically covers passing off work as if it's your own. AFAIK software is rarely patented per se. You can patent new ideas but they tend to have physical representations before the patent office get interested. But things like the GIF format have escaped to the public domain despite private ownership - and that ownership has been reasserted; thus the development of png. In any case a patent would be overturned if someone could prove that ownership lay elsewhere. -- ******************************************************************************** All mail sent and received may be examined to prevent transmission of unacceptable material. Wellington College does not accept responsibility for email contents. Problems to postmaster(a)wellington-college.berks.sch.uk. Website: http://www.wellington-college.berks.sch.uk ********************************************************************************

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started
by Chris Puttick 02 May '03

02 May '03

I would second Chris's suggestion and would go further, recommending (at least) those with a development background read the archives to date (there's only 25 messages!) to get the technical flavour of the project. For those who are aware of Hobarte, I'm hoping/intending that some of the existing Hobarte solution can be migrated to this (despite language and architecture differences). Regardless, my spare energies will be directed into SchoolTool rather than Hobarte. This project has enormous potential and already has a very solid direction - more people will move it towards a useable solution that much faster. Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: Chris Duncan To: suse-linux-uk-schools(a)suse.com Sent: 5/1/03 11:37 PM Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Free school administration software - project has started Hi all, I have read messages on this list with interest over the last few months. A topic, which is of interest to me, has been raised on several occasions, namely, the question of a free school administration software package. A project has now been started to produce such a package. It is at the planning stage and has need of volunteers to help define the requirements of the system and assist with the construction of it. I am posting to this list because I am convinced that the most effective way to produce a free software application of this nature is to engage the education community in it's development from the outset. If you would like to become involved please visit this site: http://schooltool.sourceforge.net and subscribe to the mailing list. Regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com

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Which e-mail list? - questionnaire results
by John Ingleby 01 May '03

01 May '03

I posted a questionnaire on the os.education Smartgroup, to further explore the question of a schoolforge.org.uk e-mail list. Many thanks to those who who responded! Basically, they support the view that this SuSe list suits most purposes. A new list might serve an administrative function for Schoolforge UK, but 50% would rather not subscribe to another mailing list. Someone suggested we should get in touch with SuSe - I'll do that. Regards, John Ingleby ************ -----Forwarded Message----- From: John Ingleby <john(a)coronet.co.uk> To: suse-linux-uk-schools(a)suse.com Subject: Which e-mail list? Date: 17 Apr 2003 11:00:09 +0100 I posted a vote on the matter of "Which e-mail list?" on the Smartgroup site created by Larry Walker, and you can see the results over at http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/os.education Basically, out of 11 voters: 3 want to use this SuSe list as the list for Schoolforge UK. 3 would like a new list @schoolforge.uk.org. 3 feel we should do both, with distinct purposes for each, 1 suggested we alias a new @schoolforge.org.uk list to this one, in effect merging the two. 1 suggested we continue with this list for now, while keeping the option open for a new list when we can see it's needed. The majority of voters are in favour of keeping this SuSe list as the vehicle for Schoolforge UK, at least for now. To get some ideas about the purposes for a new list, I've added an open-ended questionnaire. Please do take a look at the Smartgroup site, and add your feedback to the questionnaire. I'll try to summarise the results after April 30. With best regards, John Ingleby ************

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