September 2016 - openSUSE M17n - openSUSE Mailing Lists

[opensuse-m17n] Re: noto-sans-cjk-fonts' config replaces "serif" with "Noto Sans CJK *" (sans)
by Fuminobu TAKEYAMA 20 Sep '16

20 Sep '16

Hi, > (1) > <edit name="lang" mode="prepend"> > <string>en</string> > </edit> Interesting trick! > (2) Another possibility (and maybe real fix (tm)) is to remove latin > characters from the cjk font, if license allows. Creating a new font by forking existing fonts will be fine from the viewpoint of licenses. Typical approach similar to this is replacing latin glyphs of a CJK font with ones from another latin font. There are many mixed fonts created in this approach. For 42.2, I will keep sans serif the same as before, which uses IPA PGothic for both latin and CJK characters. For Tumbleweed, I will test (1). Then I will consider (2) or find a mixed font. I will do SR of fonts-config and noto-sans-fonts tomorrow. Thanks, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA On 2016/09/19 17:45, Petr Gajdos wrote: > On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 12:21:28AM +0900, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA wrote: >> The resulting family list will be >> FooBar Mincho, Robot Slab, IPAPMincho, IPAexMincho, ..., serif >> >> However, the font fontconfig selects Robot Slab. >> >> This is because the selected font is not the one of the top of the family list >> but the family that have highest score. >> >> The scoring rule of fontconfig is not clear. It seems that its factor might be >> (a) The position of the family in the family list >> (b) The character sets provided by the family >> (c) The strength of binding >> >> The rule (b) precedes (a). This is why the CJK font is selected even though >> there are many latin families before the CJK family. > > Yes, thanks for your test. When I try with the simple html (attached) > and run with > > $ LC_ALL=ja_JP firefox index.html > > > with just > > <match target="pattern"> > <test name="lang" compare="eq"> > <string>ja</string> > </test> > <test name="family"> > <string>serif</string> > </test> > <edit name="family" mode="prepend"> > <string>Roboto Slab</string> > <family>IPAPMincho</family> > <family>IPAMincho</family> > <family>IPAexMincho</family> > </edit> > </match> > > > the latin string in the html rendered by ipa. Perhaps possible > solutions: > > (1) > > <match target="pattern"> > <test name="lang" compare="eq"> > <string>ja</string> > </test> > <test name="family"> > <string>serif</string> > </test> > <edit name="lang" mode="prepend"> > <string>en</string> > </edit> > <edit name="family" mode="prepend"> > <string>Roboto Slab</string> > <family>IPAPMincho</family> > <family>IPAMincho</family> > <family>IPAexMincho</family> > </edit> > </match> > > Prepending en before ja so that the requested pattern contains then > > lang: "en"(w) "ja"(w) > > will shift up Roboto Slab in the metrics you noted here. The latin > string in the html is then rendered by to Roboto Slab. I am not > sure though, how many tools will be confused by the > > <edit name="lang" mode="prepend"> > <string>en</string> > </edit> > > snippet. For example, `LC_ALL=ja_JP fc-match serif` will return > 'Roboto Slab'. > > (2) Another possibility (and maybe real fix (tm)) is to remove latin > characters from the cjk font, if license allows. We do modify fonts > already, for example, see indic-fonts, where the instructions are > removed for latin symbols due bsc#977195. I believe that the removing > of the glyphs could be done via a fontforge script. > > I can try to work out, just decide what way we could try. In case of > (1), I would ask you for trying that for some time for your real > japanese system and even for sans, perhaps. > > Or, we can just give up, as you already wrote. > > Thanks, > Petr > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+owner(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-m17n] Re: noto-sans-cjk-fonts' config replaces "serif" with "Noto Sans CJK *" (sans)
by Fuminobu TAKEYAMA 15 Sep '16

15 Sep '16

Hi I move the config file from noto-sans-cjk-fonts to fonts-config https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file/home:ftake:branches:M17N/ fonts-config/59-family-prefer-locale-specific.conf As far as I read 60-family-prefer.conf, the preferred serif font for Chinese is not clear. (There are some sans font in preference list.) After some investigation, I set following fonts zh-cn: AR PL UMing CN zh-sg: AR PL UMing CN zh-tw: AR PL CMEXSong UMing TW zh-hk: AR PL CMEXSong UMing HK zh-mo: AR PL CMEXSong UMing HK ko: NanumMyeongjo Chinese maintainers, is this configuration appropriate? > I _guess_ that the consequence would be that, if e. g. IPA PMincho > contains latin characters, then that ones will be used for given > locale instead of that ones in 60-family-prefer.conf. Well, before the problematic conf file is not installed, IPA PMincho has been used for latin characters. However, IPA* fonts does not provide good glyphs (suitable for FreeType). So following this approach: > 1. adding prefered latin fonts before that cjk ones to > 59-family-prefer-cjk.conf I put "Roboto Slab" before IPA* fonts. Here, the binding="strong" is important. Without it, fc-match picks IPAMincho before Roboto Slab. <match target="pattern"> <test qual="any" name="family" compare="eq"> <string>serif</string> </test> <test name="lang" compare="eq"> <string>ja</string> </test> <edit name="family" mode="prepend" binding="strong">  <string>Roboto Slab</string> <string>IPAPMincho</string> <string>IPAexMincho</string> </edit> </match> I am finding the best latin font used with IPA* fonts. BTW, 60-family-prefer.conf is still important when CJK character is used under non-CJK environment where LC_CTYPE is, for example, en. Fuminobu TAKEYAMA On 2016/09/07 16:41, Petr Gajdos wrote: > Fuminobu, > > On Wed, Sep 07, 2016 at 02:13:17AM +0900, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA wrote: >> Thank you for using your time for this help. >> I am sorry. I just wanted to ask the intention (requirement) of the latest package, >> which force to use Noto Sans as a serif font. > > You do not need to sorry, your mail was actally that one which > kick me to understand. > > I vaguely remember there was a problem with overlapping unicode points > in CJK. Perhaps Japanese variant of noto cjk ttc was chosen just > because of alphabet order even for chinese text, or so. But I had not > participated on the solution of the problem, so I do not know about it > more. > >> As a quick fix for 42.2 and Tumbleweed, I will remove the following part from the >> config file: >> (1) appending Noto Sans CJK JP/SC/TC/KR to serif >> (2) appending Noto Sans (Mono) CJK Japanese to sans-serif (monospace) respectively > > Just to be correct, _prepending_. Appending is also possible via > append/<accept> alias. > >> About (2), we have discussed on the previous thread. We do not make it default >> sans/monospace for Japanese for now when the package is manually installed. > > That is one option, as you say, quick. But let me propose a permanent > solution and be critical. > > What about somewhat copy the idea of 59-noto-sans-cjk.conf and > generalize it, say to 59-family-prefer-cjk.conf, or maybe even > 59-family-prefer-lang.conf for matter of future requests. I. e. > introduce language specific variants of default preference lists and > prepend them to that in 60-family-prefer.conf. > >  > <match target="pattern"> > <test qual="any" name="family" compare="eq"> > <string>sans-serif</string> > </test> > <test name="lang" compare="eq"> > <string>ja</string> > </test> > <edit name="family" mode="prepend"> > <string>IPA PGothic</string> > [.. another families better then noto ..] > <string>Noto Sans CJK JP</string> > [.. another families worse then noto ..] > </edit> > </match> > <match target="pattern"> > <test qual="any" name="family" compare="eq"> > <string>serif</string> > </test> > <test name="lang" compare="eq"> > <string>ja</string> > </test> > <edit name="family" mode="prepend"> > <string>IPA PMincho</string> > [.. another families ..] > </edit> > </match> > <match target="pattern"> > <test qual="any" name="family" compare="eq"> > <string>monospace</string> > </test> > <test name="lang" compare="eq"> > <string>ja</string> > </test> > <edit name="family" mode="prepend"> > <string>IPA Gothic</string> > [.. another families better then noto ..] > <string>Noto Sans Mono CJK JP</string> > [.. another families worse then noto ..] > </edit> > </match> > > The same way for another languages, for now just Korean and Chinese. > > Of course, these families could be then removed from > 60-family-prefer.conf and the rest of lists in there could be perhaps > reviewed and lightened a bit. > > Because of 59- prefix it would be read after 56-user.conf (user > conf from custom fonts.conf) and after 58-family-prefer-local.conf > (fonts-config written configuration derived from > /etc/sysconfig/fonts-config), it should not override the settings > there. > > I _guess_ that the consequence would be that, if e. g. IPA PMincho > contains latin characters, then that ones will be used for given > locale instead of that ones in 60-family-prefer.conf. YOU, C J and K > guys need to decide if it is wrong for you or not. If not, that can be > perhaps easily solved by (not sure what would be better): > > 1. adding prefered latin fonts before that cjk ones to > 59-family-prefer-cjk.conf > 2. remove surely all fonts from 60-family-prefer.conf that contains > CJK characters and exchange order of 59-family-prefer-lang.conf and > 60-family-prefer.conf, i. e. 59-family-prefer.conf and > 60-family-prefer-lang.conf. > > I would prefer the first variant slightly, when there would not be > high duplication of 60-family-prefer.conf for each locale (one or two > fonts at maximum). Each lang would have a freedom to decide which > latin font match best in addition to their CJK-font-preference. > > DISCLAIMER: all of this I wrote from top of my head, so sorry when I > talk rubbish. Needs to be tested for sure. > >> Maybe I misunderstood some current situation. I will do more investigation >> e.g. fonts-config really works with the Noto's config file or not. > > I do not think you misunderstood something. I recently unsubscribed as > maintainer/bugowner of fontconfig/fonts-config for openSUSE because of > the reasons I have already wrote in my previous email. > > If you would like to take partly over, I will return myself as > comaintainer with you. > > Thanks, > Petr > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+owner(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-m17n] Is non-Unicode needed?
by Martin Vidner 11 Sep '16

11 Sep '16

Hi, we got a bug about YaST misbehaving when the locale is set to the ISO-8859-1 encoding. The bug is meanwhile resolved. But I wonder whether such a situation is a complete anomaly, or if there are specific circumstances where one would still want to use a non-UTF-8 encoding in 2016. Do you know of such cases? -- Martin Vidner, YaST Team http://en.opensuse.org/User:Mvidner Kuracke oddeleni v restauraci je jako fekalni oddeleni v bazenu

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[opensuse-m17n] Re: noto-sans-cjk-fonts' config replaces "serif" with "Noto Sans CJK *" (sans)
by Fuminobu TAKEYAMA 06 Sep '16

06 Sep '16

Hi, Thank you for using your time for this help. I am sorry. I just wanted to ask the intention (requirement) of the latest package, which force to use Noto Sans as a serif font. As a quick fix for 42.2 and Tumbleweed, I will remove the following part from the config file: (1) appending Noto Sans CJK JP/SC/TC/KR to serif (2) appending Noto Sans (Mono) CJK Japanese to sans-serif (monospace) respectively About (2), we have discussed on the previous thread. We do not make it default sans/monospace for Japanese for now when the package is manually installed. Maybe I misunderstood some current situation. I will do more investigation e.g. fonts-config really works with the Noto's config file or not. Thanks, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA On 2016/09/06 16:04, Petr Gajdos wrote: > On Mon, Sep 05, 2016 at 09:07:03PM +0200, Petr Gajdos wrote: >>> | JP | KO | CN | ... >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> sans |IPA PGothic| | | -------------------------------------------------------- >>> serif |IPA PMincho| | | >>> -------------------------------------------------------- >>> monospace |IPA Gothic | | | >>> > > [...] > >> for something to implement in fontconfig/fonts-config, feel free to >> file a clear (!) bug report against it and try to assign it to me. > > Under a clear bug report I understand for example: > > Hey, we are japanese guys and we do not feel comfortable with new > default, Noto Sans for serif, we have nice serif font, IPA Mincho. We > also agreed to IPA PGothic stand for sans most preferably and so IPA > Gothic for monospace again. > > And that would be plus: > > We think it is caused by new 59-noto-sans-cjk.conf. > > Then I will happily implement your requirement. Unfortunately I got > several emails before I really had understood the problem. Not that I > would dare to go trough opensuse-m17n discussion. Define requirement > and ask me for implementation. > > Petr > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+owner(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-m17n] noto-sans-cjk-fonts' config replaces "serif" with "Noto Sans CJK *" (sans)
by Fuminobu TAKEYAMA 05 Sep '16

05 Sep '16

Hello, Please subscribe -m17n list since you are a maintainer of M17N:fonts Thank you for your explanation. My suggestion on this thread is just removing the following lines (at least for Japanese) in order to provide a serif font such as IPA P Mincho according to precedence defined by fonts-config (and YaST). Adding Noto *Sans* CJK into the head of "Serif" alias list is wrong, as far as I can understand. <match target="pattern"> <test qual="any" name="family" compare="eq"> <string>serif</string> </test> <test name="lang" compare="eq"> <string>ja</string> </test> <edit name="family" mode="prepend"> <string>Noto Sans CJK JP</string> </edit> </match> If there's no objection, I will remove assignments of Noto Sans CJK * to serif. # not sans-serif > Where is the fontconfig rule that adds ipa mincho to serif? If the > prepend in 59-noto-sans-cjk.conf comes before the ipa mincho one > (<prefer> is doing the prepend, too), then the family preference list > looks like for ja: > > 'Noto Sans CJK JP' ... 'IPA Mincho' ... serif fonts-config.rpm 60-family-prefer.conf: provides <alias> and <prefer> fontconfig.rpm 65-nonlatin.conf: provides <alias> and <prefer> > When both noto and ipa are installed, then the prefernce is given to > noto. So this problem happens. >> > So, as long as Noto CJK has not serif shape, it should be ok, I think. >> > Font for e. g. latin text should be taken from the another (serif) >> > fonts, in our case 'BlaBla Serif' if it is installed on the system. >> >> How does fontconfig understand a font provides serif glyphs? I sill cannot understand why it should be Ok. Now Noto Sans CJK is selected for Japanese text when we request "Serif" because Noto Sans CJK is on the top of the list. My understanding is that fontconfig knows Noto Sans CJK provides both latin and CJK glyphs but it cannot determine whether those glyphs are serif or not. Do you mean if "Not Sans CJK" is included in "Sans" <prefer> lists, fontconfig can understand it should provide sans shape? For now, "Noto Sans CJK" is not included in any <prefer> lists. > What exactly you want to see? Which fonts should be prefered for > CJK? Maybe the best thing would be to drop custom fontconfig snippets > in packages and move the solution to fonts-config package level. Even if we have the wrong 59-noto-sans-cjk.conf, I still be able to find IPA Mincho, which should be just after Noto Sans CJK JP" $ fc-match -s "Serif" NotoSansCJK.ttc: "Noto Sans CJK JP" "Regular" <<< ipamp.ttf should be here >>> RobotoSlab-Regular.ttf: "Roboto Slab" "Regular" LiberationSerif-Regular.ttf: "Liberation Serif" "Regular" DejaVuSerif.ttf: "DejaVu Serif" "Book" DejaVuSerif-Bold.ttf: "DejaVu Serif" "Bold" DejaVuSerif-Italic.ttf: "DejaVu Serif" "Italic" DejaVuSerif-BoldItalic.ttf: "DejaVu Serif" "Bold Italic" luxirr.ttf: "Luxi Serif" "Regular" FreeSerif.ttf: "FreeSerif" "Regular" bsmiuee.pfb: "AR PL Mingti2L Big5" "ee" bsmiuf6.pfb: "AR PL Mingti2L Big5" "f6" bsmiuf7.pfb: "AR PL Mingti2L Big5" "f7" bsmiuf8.pfb: "AR PL Mingti2L Big5" "f8" (snip) > So what you intend to achieve? > Tell me. > I could look at it when time permits. JP is the same as 42.1 with Noto Sans | JP | KO | CN | ... -------------------------------------------------------- sans |IPA PGothic| | | -------------------------------------------------------- serif |IPA PMincho| | | -------------------------------------------------------- monospace |IPA Gothic | | | Not that I wanted to ask about CN. Is it really OK that serif is Noto *Sans* CJK SC/TC? There are no Noto Serif CJK for now. This is off topic but the 58-noto-sans also overrides family preferences generated by the YaST font module. On 2016/09/05 16:49, Petr Gajdos wrote: > Hello, > > I have sent following mail to opensuse-m17n, but the list seem to be > moderated for not-subscribers but none had accepted my mail until > now. So sending again (slightly modified). > > On Thu, Sep 01, 2016 at 11:51:53PM +0900, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA wrote: >> Hi, >> >> The problem is that even though we have serif Japanese fonts (maybe Chinese >> too), Noto Sans CJK * is selected as an alias of "Serif". > > Where is the fontconfig rule that adds ipa mincho to serif? If the > prepend in 59-noto-sans-cjk.conf comes before the ipa mincho one > (<prefer> is doing the prepend, too), then the family preference list > looks like for ja: > > 'Noto Sans CJK JP' ... 'IPA Mincho' ... serif > > When both noto and ipa are installed, then the prefernce is given to > noto. > >> > So, as long as Noto CJK has not serif shape, it should be ok, I think. >> > Font for e. g. latin text should be taken from the another (serif) >> > fonts, in our case 'BlaBla Serif' if it is installed on the system. >> >> How does fontconfig understand a font provides serif glyphs? > > I am under impression that > > <alias> > <family>sans-serif</family> > <prefer> > <family>Roboto</family> > [...] > </prefer> > </alias> > > says that families inside <prefer> </prefer> should be used (in that > order) whenever sans-serif alias is requested. You can even define > another aliases, for example (or see 'fantasy' or 'cursive' aliases in > 45-latin.conf) > > <alias> > <family>myalias</family> > <prefer> > <family>AnotherFamily</family> > [...] > </prefer> > </alias> > > Then $(fc-match myalias) will return font from AnotherFamily, when > installed. > > Maybe offtopic, but there is also an <default> alias (see > 49-family-default.conf). That rule adds an alias (such as 'serif' for > example) at the end of the preference family list in the pattern. So > when 'Georgia' is requested, then, first, 'serif' is added at the end > of the family list in the just-created-pattern: > > ... Georgia ... serif > > Later on, serif is prepended with the bunch of families in, for > example, from 60-family-prefer.conf: > > ... Georiga ... 'Times New Roman' 'Thorndale AMT' ... serif > > Hence, when Georgia is NOT installed, then its installed fellow in > 'serif' group is returned. > >> What is strange, I cannot find IPA P Mincho (IPA P明朝), which has been the >> default alias of "Serif" for Japanese, if 59-noto-sans-cjk.conf exists. > > That is weird on the first sight indeed. > >> $ fc-match -s "Serif" >> NotoSansCJK.ttc: "Noto Sans CJK JP" "Regular" >> RobotoSlab-Regular.ttf: "Roboto Slab" "Regular" >> LiberationSerif-Regular.ttf: "Liberation Serif" "Regular" >> DejaVuSerif.ttf: "DejaVu Serif" "Book" >> DejaVuSerif-Bold.ttf: "DejaVu Serif" "Bold" >> DejaVuSerif-Italic.ttf: "DejaVu Serif" "Italic" >> DejaVuSerif-BoldItalic.ttf: "DejaVu Serif" "Bold Italic" >> luxirr.ttf: "Luxi Serif" "Regular" >> FreeSerif.ttf: "FreeSerif" "Regular" >> bsmiuee.pfb: "AR PL Mingti2L Big5" "ee" >> bsmiuf6.pfb: "AR PL Mingti2L Big5" "f6" >> bsmiuf7.pfb: "AR PL Mingti2L Big5" "f7" >> bsmiuf8.pfb: "AR PL Mingti2L Big5" "f8" >> (snip) >> >> $ sudo rm 59-noto-sans-cjk.conf >> $ fc-match -s "Serif" >> ipamp.ttf: "IPA P明朝" "Regular" >> RobotoSlab-Regular.ttf: "Roboto Slab" "Regular" >> LiberationSerif-Regular.ttf: "Liberation Serif" "Regular" >> DejaVuSerif.ttf: "DejaVu Serif" "Book" >> DejaVuSerif-Bold.ttf: "DejaVu Serif" "Bold" >> DejaVuSerif-Italic.ttf: "DejaVu Serif" "Italic" >> DejaVuSerif-BoldItalic.ttf: "DejaVu Serif" "Bold Italic" >> luxirr.ttf: "Luxi Serif" "Regular" >> FreeSerif.ttf: "FreeSerif" "Regular" >> ipaexm.ttf: "IPAex明朝" "Regular" >> sazanami-mincho.ttf: "さざなみ明朝" "Mincho-Regular" >> gbsnu24.pfb: "AR PL SungtiL GB" "24" >> gbsnu31.pfb: "AR PL SungtiL GB" "31" >> gbsnu4e.pfb: "AR PL SungtiL GB" "4e" >> gbsnu4f.pfb: "AR PL SungtiL GB" "4f" >> gbsnu50.pfb: "AR PL SungtiL GB" "50" >> (snip) > > > What exactly you want to see? Which fonts should be prefered for > CJK? Maybe the best thing would be to drop custom fontconfig snippets > in packages and move the solution to fonts-config package level. > > So what you intend to achieve? > Tell me. > I could look at it when time permits. > > | JP | KO | CN | ... > -------------------------------------------------------- > sans | | | | > -------------------------------------------------------- > serif | | | | > -------------------------------------------------------- > monospace | | | | > > > Petr > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+owner(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-m17n] noto-sans-cjk-fonts' config replaces "serif" with "Noto Sans CJK *" (sans)
by Fuminobu TAKEYAMA 01 Sep '16

01 Sep '16

Hi all, I just noticed that 59-noto-sans-cjk.conf provided by noto-sans-cjk-fonts replaces "serif" with "Noto Sans CJK JP/TC/SC/KR". Is there any intention to assign sans-serif fonts to serif? <match target="pattern"> <test qual="any" name="family" compare="eq"> <string>serif</string> </test> <test name="lang" compare="eq"> <string>ja</string> </test> <edit name="family" mode="prepend"> <string>Noto Sans CJK JP</string> </edit> </match> I also think changing overriding alias preference by a font config file in each font package. Installing noto-sans-cjk-fonts accidentally changes system fonts even though they want to use those fonts only for printing. This also breaks configuration by yast-fonts. We should update the fontsconfig package in order to change default family of "serif", "sans serif", "monospace" -- Fuminobu TAKEYAMA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+owner(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-m17n] Discussion: Porting noto font family to our openSUSE
by ZhaoQiang 01 Sep '16

01 Sep '16

Hi, all: As we know, openSUSE leap 42.1 locale zh_* has changed the default fonts to google-noto, and make Chinese openSUSE's font render much beautiful. As the description in wiki page: Noto is a font family designed to cover all the scripts encoded in the Unicode standard. It is designed with the goal of achieving visual harmony (e.g., compatible heights and stroke thicknesses) across multiple languages/scripts. Commissioned by Google, the font is licensed under the SIL Open Font License. Until September 2015, the fonts were under the Apache License 2.0. I propose to port noto font family to other language to openSUSE desktop as default font. But I'm wondering, is there any country or area improper to use it? Thank you ! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+owner(a)opensuse.org

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