Op zondag 16 juli 2017 10:47:54 CEST schreef Richard Brown:

The opensuse@opensuse.org is meant to be a support mailinglist for the openSUSE distributions.

No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like it.

I respectfully request that the discussion of this topic ends and all of the people involved do not create, continue, or restart any discussion about the pros or cons of systemd on this mailinglist again.

Discussions that seek to practically help people with systemd issues are of course perfectly fine, but it is unacceptable to suggest removal of systemd on this list when it has been the only supported init system for months.

Religious discussions about whether systemd is good, or bad, do not help anyone. Take them off our support & development mailinglists.

Failure to comply with my above request, will lead to my recommendation to the openSUSE Board that we consider banning the people ignoring this request. If this is anything more than 2 or 3 people, I will actually consider recommending that the Board discuss removing this entire mailinglist, because I am sick of having to explain to new community members that opensuse@opensuse.org was once a support mailinglist but no longer serves that purpose effectively as it now has far, far too much commentary & techno-nonsense religion discussions by people who love to complain but not contribute.

So, consider this a warning. I'm fed of up reading this nonsense and I will work hard to ensure that it stops if the attendees of this list do not make an effort to end it. Now.

Regards, Richard Brown openSUSE Chairman

On 16 July 2017 at 07:25, L A Walsh wrote:

...

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

I really really really think that you're being ridiculous. There are always man pages available. Even when I have no power and all my network is shut down and I don't have my laptop I can take my tablet across to the coffee shop and use the wifi there to read on-line man pages.

----

If there is no power, how does your tablet work? FWIW, I don't

have a tablet.

...

What you are really saying here is that you expect to be able to deal with these problems by never having bothered to familiarise yourself with the capabilities when you do have an up and running system, read the man pages and the on-line how-to articles, keep a daybook where you note these things, try them out, experiment and familiarise yourself with their workings.

----

"when I have a up and running system" -- that's when things work.

Every time I've tried anything associated with xD (=sysD from subj), I've never gotten to a working system.

...

Well, BtrFS is the FS that's the default setting in an out-of-the-box instillation.

---

If you installed when it was the default setting. I didn't.

When I installed my system there was no initrd. Things booted from disk.

...

As for 'conservative', I beg to differ. I'm a lot more conservative than you. I run a very vanilla system, a plain old initrd.

---

That's not conservative -- that's modern/latest fad. Systems booted

from disk long before booting from an initrd.

...

I don't install any of the features or modification that you have

discussed in the past.

---

As I stated before. My system has been configure when the current

features were opensuse standard. Even XFS was the suse standard FS when I installed it. Initrd, btrfs, etc. All those are recent, bleeding edge innovations. They are not well vetted or tested for my primary system.

...

The difference between us is that I'm obsessive about reading: tech papers, development notes, developers blogs, man pages, hot-to pages. And I make notes, I keeps a daybook, I note ideas and the results of things I try out.

---

I can't read my writing, not to mention I type faster than write.

If it isn't in my computer, I won't find it.

...

Many of the things I try out result form matters discussed on this list, which I also read, excepting only matters that are so far away from anything I'm running, things about, for example, KDE3.

The things I try, there is usually no answer for. Someone claimed

xD used standard methods to talk between xD modules so it was "open".

I have tried running dbus on my desktop and on my server, and

tried to get them to communicate -- turns out no one had ever bothered to put in networking -- it's speced for it, but no one ever implemented it.

I used shell-script files to patch something together that worked.

That's what I do on boot when something doesn't work -- if it is

in an unfinished and non-standard tool (xD), then I can't expect to use it to get anything to work. xD isn't stable and hasn't stabilized YET. Each new release breaks more things. I don't call using it on your primary systems "conservative".

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Though completely agreed on the content, I suggest you make it a "We, the openSUSE Board" letter. That will avoid making it a Richard vs. others thing., but rather a board decision My 2 cents -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday, 16 July 2017 09:47:54 BST Richard Brown wrote:

The opensuse@opensuse.org is meant to be a support mailinglist for the openSUSE distributions.

No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like it.

I respectfully request that the discussion of this topic ends and all of the people involved do not create, continue, or restart any discussion about the pros or cons of systemd on this mailinglist again.

Discussions that seek to practically help people with systemd issues are of course perfectly fine, but it is unacceptable to suggest removal of systemd on this list when it has been the only supported init system for months.

Religious discussions about whether systemd is good, or bad, do not help anyone. Take them off our support & development mailinglists.

Failure to comply with my above request, will lead to my recommendation to the openSUSE Board that we consider banning the people ignoring this request. If this is anything more than 2 or 3 people, I will actually consider recommending that the Board discuss removing this entire mailinglist, because I am sick of having to explain to new community members that opensuse@opensuse.org was once a support mailinglist but no longer serves that purpose effectively as it now has far, far too much commentary & techno-nonsense religion discussions by people who love to complain but not contribute.

So, consider this a warning. I'm fed of up reading this nonsense and I will work hard to ensure that it stops if the attendees of this list do not make an effort to end it. Now.

Regards, Richard Brown openSUSE Chairman Snip

I think most of us agree with you but you'll have to careful that it does not stop people posting a query about it in good faith just in case they think they will get banned. But is it advisable to let misinformation about a fundamental part of opensuse continue unchallenged and tarnish opensuse in the process? Sometimes ignorance/misinformation about some software is an honest mistake. I prefer to be corrected when i misunderstand something rather than labour under on in ignorance. Most of the thread was about giving information to correct but obviously not all. Maybe there needs to "opensuse-systemd" list ;) -- opensuse:tumbleweed:20170712 Qt: 5.9.1 KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0 KDE Plasma: 5.10.3 kwin 5.10.3 kmail2 5.5.2 akonadiserver 5.5.2 Kernel: 4.11.8-1-default Nouveau: 1.0.15_1.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/16/2017 07:41 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 16/07/17 10:05 AM, ianseeks wrote:

...

Maybe there needs to "opensuse-systemd" list I think that's a very good idea, if accompanied by two policies.

The first is that any and all discussion of systemd here gets transferred there.

The second is that Richard's policy that anyone slagging of systemd, suggesting it gets ripped out and regressing to SysVinit or anything of that class gets removed.

...And there you make intent clear... CON is not tolerated and PRO is encouraged. And the core issue become plain -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Am 16.07.2017 um 15:39 schrieb michael norman:

On 16/07/17 09:47, Richard Brown wrote:

...

The opensuse@opensuse.org is meant to be a support mailinglist for the openSUSE distributions.

No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like it.

I respectfully request that the discussion of this topic ends and all of the people involved do not create, continue, or restart any discussion about the pros or cons of systemd on this mailinglist again.

Discussions that seek to practically help people with systemd issues are of course perfectly fine, but it is unacceptable to suggest removal of systemd on this list when it has been the only supported init system for months.

Religious discussions about whether systemd is good, or bad, do not help anyone. Take them off our support & development mailinglists.

Failure to comply with my above request, will lead to my recommendation to the openSUSE Board that we consider banning the people ignoring this request. If this is anything more than 2 or 3 people, I will actually consider recommending that the Board discuss removing this entire mailinglist, because I am sick of having to explain to new community members that opensuse@opensuse.org was once a support mailinglist but no longer serves that purpose effectively as it now has far, far too much commentary & techno-nonsense religion discussions by people who love to complain but not contribute.

So, consider this a warning. I'm fed of up reading this nonsense and I will work hard to ensure that it stops if the attendees of this list do not make an effort to end it. Now.

Regards, Richard Brown openSUSE Chairman

You do that and you can say goodbye to me a SUSE user since 5.0 days.

I've never contributed much so my loss won't mean much. But if your view prevails I'm gone.

M

Yes, it's sad that Mr. Brown acts like a medieval grandpa. Me neither likes useless discussions, and - except right now - I usually don't participate. When I see a thread drifting away I just ignore it. The few bytes wasted: who cares! While I agree that sometimes there are threads that for my personal opinion are unnecessary, I still learn a lot here, receive help and, in very rare occasions, even could help myself. But we have Mr. Zuckerberg telling us what is morally correct and what not (violence vs nipples), we have google terrorizing us with its censorship and scandalous valuation of what is worth showing and what not, we have the trump thing telling us what is true and what is fake news, and now we have Mr. Brown telling us, that good is what he likes and bad is what others think - and threatening the community to follow his taste in a tone that is absolutely inadequate. This not what I want to read. It's a f***ing rant just any other one, just in an even more unfriendly tone. We are not your children, you are not our legal guardian, and if you were, you should search for some help about modern educational methods. -- Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Barcelona https://www.patreon.com/danielbauer http://www.daniel-bauer.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/16/2017 09:49 AM, Daniel Bauer wrote:

This not what I want to read. It's a f***ing rant just any other one, just in an even more unfriendly tone. We are not your children, you are not our legal guardian, and if you were, you should search for some help about modern educational methods.

The problem is, this tyrant, much like the others you mention, does have control of this list and he's just crazy enough that he would burn down the village to save the village. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

I would like to emphasize the main point here: Am 16.07.2017 um 19:32 schrieb Lew Wolfgang: <snip>

This list, with a mission of offering support to both new-bees and gray-beards, really doesn't need nastiness and flame wars. <snip>

Imagine yourself being a newbie, trying to find help, and instead you find yourself in the middle of that kind of deeply entrenched mailing list verdun. if you really have to have that kind of argument, do it anywhere else you like, but please keep the mailinglists useful. Cheers MH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/07/17 20:57, Mathias Homann wrote:

Imagine yourself being a newbie, trying to find help, and instead you find yourself in the middle of that kind of deeply entrenched mailing list verdun.

wiki: WWI "The Battle of Verdun lasted for 303 days and became the longest and one of the most costly battles in human history. An estimate in 2000 found a total of 714,231 casualties, 377,231 French and 337,000 German, for an average of 70,000 casualties a month; other recent estimates increase the number of casualties to 976,000, during the battle, with 1,250,000 suffered at Verdun during the war." cheers ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op zondag 16 juli 2017 19:57:06 CEST schreef Mathias Homann:

I would like to emphasize the main point here:

Am 16.07.2017 um 19:32 schrieb Lew Wolfgang:

<snip>

...

This list, with a mission of offering support to both new-bees and gray-beards, really doesn't need nastiness and flame wars.

<snip>

Imagine yourself being a newbie, trying to find help, and instead you find yourself in the middle of that kind of deeply entrenched mailing list verdun.

if you really have to have that kind of argument, do it anywhere else you like, but please keep the mailinglists useful.

Cheers MH

Yep. And >100 post threads is what users land in. No openSUSE ML should be a chatbox. The current state, long, dwelling discussions - not only about systend - make it hard to suggest (new) users to post here. I completely share Richard's annoyance. For the same reason: care for the openSUSE project. Threads like mentioned are an abomination considered what the ML's are meant for. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dne neděle 16. července 2017 22:43:48 CEST, Richard Brown napsal(a):

Top-posting because I want to address a whole range of points in one mail.

On the potential shutdown of this whole list. I realise that possibility is a heavy one. I do not make it lightly, I consider it a last resort, and I do so well aware of the potential negative consequences of making it. But I think it is in the best interest of this mailinglist that I make it. At the very least it should be a clear reminder that the tone & success of this channel is the collective responsibility of everyone here. There are 1243 subscribers to this list, but a handful are dramatically impeding this lists function as a User support platform. This is something 1200+ people can help manage, some already can be said to be doing so given their responses to this thread, and I thank those people for it.

On the claim of 'tyranny' & 'lack of openness'. I have made these requests openly, to the whole list, as an opportunity for either the individuals involved or the whole list to contribute to a solution to the problem and negate the need for further action. This is an open statement of what is acceptable on this list, justified by the fact that this is the opensuse@opensuse.org _support_ mailinglist and the topic in question is not a _support_ topic. Even if you do not agree with this, no action of any kind will be taken without the explicit approval of the openSUSE Board as the body that is elected by the community to make such decisions. No power will be abused, the people appointed & elected to leadership roles within this community will make the decisions they feel are in the best interest of this community. It is their job to do so, and I think it's open, fair, and transparent to do so with adequate warning. In this case, warning before the Board even discusses the possibility of taking action.

On the topic of a new mailinglist. I am not opposed to the idea, but every openSUSE mailinglist should only exist to facilitate communication and collaboration on something which is actively being worked on in the Project. Right now, no one is working on a systemd alternative for openSUSE. So frankly, the idea of a separate list is pointless. If someone steps up to do work, they already have -factory to discuss technical details, and when those discussions get too much for -factory, spinning out a separate list would be a natural option. But contribution _must_come_first_.

On the topic of 'encouragement vs punishment' in volunteer organisations. I agree that volunteer organisations run best when people are encouraged to contribute. I wholeheartedly agree. And I contest that, especially with some of the individuals engaging in these problematic discussions, the encouragement to contribute has been endless and yet wholly ineffective. openSUSE is an open project. Right now, the several hundred contributors to openSUSE all support only systemd. The distributions we ship all only support systemd. It doesn't have to be this way. If a tiny fraction of the effort that was spent on arguing about the evils of systemd was spent building an alternative, such an alternative could easily co-exist inside openSUSE. This could be as subtle as convincing all of those hundreds of contributors to support more than one init system (good luck - people have tried and failed, you're asking for a lot of work), or as extreme as a Devuaan style 'fork' of openSUSE, but it wouldn't necessarily have to be a fork because I would quite happily encourage it to be _part_of_the_openSUSE_project_.

But the fact is, the people involved in hating on systemd and discuessing it endlessly have done nothing to correct that. The narrative seems to be to expect the hundreds of contributors to the openSUSE Project to do more work or different work. Work which all of those contributors have clearly shown they will not do. This is a problem that has now lasted as a recurring issue for this list for over 6 years. Just let that settle in - we've been suffering off-topic, irrelevant, systemd discussions for almost half of the time openSUSE has existed.

It has to stop, and sure it is not sweet, nice, or encouraging, but there are times when hard decisions must be made, the threat to the community must be laid out, and an opportunity to correct the situation must be given.

That is what I set out to do with my original post to this topic and I hope this post clarifies a few of the finer points so things can move forward in a positive direction.

I totally agree. And I'd like to remind existence of offtopic ML... -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/

On 07/16/2017 04:20 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

Richard Brown wrote:

...

The opensuse@opensuse.org is meant to be a support mailinglist for the openSUSE distributions.

No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like it. ... On 16 July 2017 at 07:25, L A Walsh wrote: ...

---

Since you seem to be using my email as a springboard for your "request", I would have you notice that many of the issue I mention (that some think are "customizations"), predate the existence of sysD. responding to my email, I feel it While I agree on one hand, I find it a bit grating for any group of people to be singled out as "not to participate" in a discussion on this list, as it sounds like you are saying it's ok for anyone not in the latest discussion to re-raise the topic later. The opensuse membership changes over time, and some not here now can feel free to bring this up while others who want to post their own experiences are forbidden to share. I would like to make a counter proposal: create a different discussion group for sysD. Just as the kernel has its own group, surely sysD has enough size and features to warrant its own group. While I am certainly turned off by personal ridicule for or flaming, since there is a large amount of tension, confusion, and need for advice and discussions sometimes become debates. Provide a separate space where those who want to discuss the matter can do so apart from those looking for support in this group.

It may be no one will want to post there -- but that would be fine too, since it still gives a place for sysD discussion so it comes up, it can be immediately redirected off this list to an appropriate location. That include posts for & against, and concerning development, and "help" concerning systemd. Just like there is a separate space for kernel discussion and factory discussion, why not sysd.

...

I respectfully request that the discussion of this topic ends and all of the people involved do not create, continue, or restart any discussion about the pros or cons of systemd on this mailinglist again.

Discussions that seek to practically help people with systemd issues are of course perfectly fine, but it is unacceptable to suggest removal of systemd on this list when it has been the only supported init system for months.

---

More than months. FWIW, I've never lobbied for wholesale removal, just it being more flexible and configurable -- an issue that got me involved in this recent round, as it's been a tendency toward the opposite that has caused me the most discomfort/grief.

...

Failure to comply with my above request, will lead to my recommendation to the openSUSE Board that we consider banning the people ignoring this request.

---- People compared Linus to Leonart. People flocked to Linux because they liked it -- it was a grassroots, bottom-up project. Vs. SystemD: it's forced from the top down. It's not professional jealousy -- its not professional at all. While I've heard the term dictator applied to Linus, it's never been without the the adjective "benevolent". I've yet to see the same adjective applied to the pro-sysD-enforcers.

"Failure to comply" will result in termination -- this is supposed to attract new users to the OpenSUSE "community Well said Linda!

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown wrote:

Top-posting because I want to address a whole range of points in one mail.

On the potential shutdown of this whole list. I realise that possibility is a heavy one. I do not make it lightly, I consider it a last resort, and I do so well aware of the potential negative consequences of making it.

--- If you are tired of "running" this list, let me know and I'll take it over, as well as creating a opensuse-systemd discussion group. I don't appreciate your response to my post -- as though you are talking to me. Yet I'm in a minority of not hating systemd, but hating that its implementation has been 1) forced, and 2) never resisted only to the point that be implemented in a way as to allow it to co-exist with other parts & pieces of other boot/system service control; and 3) very often, the pieces and infrastructure that allows the existence of an alternative has been removed or sabotaged to disallow alternatives to work. I maintain that it has always been my want for choice and for the old methods NOT to be deleted and replaced with tools of the same name that won't work with the older methods. When things were being forced through, it was claimed it was because opensuse was a "do-acracy", yet attempts by myself to even being building through the OBS, were blocked by unexplained problems with some boiling down to my "home directory" on the OBS system being "corrupt" and to try creating another account, with no attention as to why my homedir on a system I'd never used was "corrupt" or identifying a way to fix it.

On the claim of 'tyranny' & 'lack of openness'. I have made these requests openly, You call "failure to comply will lead to banning..." a "request"?

On the topic of a new mailinglist. I am not opposed to the idea, but every openSUSE mailinglist should only exist to facilitate communication and collaboration on something which is actively being worked on in the Project. Right now, no one is working on a systemd alternative for openSUSE. So frankly, the idea of a separate list is pointless.

My suggestion is to create a separate venue for all systemd related discussion. That provides a neutral way to recover this list for more general support purposes (other than kernel, factory or systemd topics).

Right now, the several hundred contributors to openSUSE all support only systemd. And they all have expressed their choice to do so? And others weren't disallowed contributing due to random problems?

But the fact is, the people involved in hating on systemd and discuessing it endlessly have done nothing to correct that. Some were not allowed to. More to the point -- it wasn't that something "needed to be done" to continue to provide the [then] existing alternative to sysd. I spoke up against removal and gutting of LSB utils like chkconfig to redirect things to sysd, followed by wholesale conversion and removal of scripts from /etc/init.d.

The narrative seems to be to expect the hundreds of contributors to the openSUSE Project to do more work or different work. Work which all of those contributors have clearly shown they will not do. This is a problem that has now lasted as a recurring issue for this list for over 6 years. Just let that settle in - we've been suffering off-topic, irrelevant, systemd discussions for almost half of the time openSUSE has existed.

---- As long as it is a problem that many feel disenfranchised, expect protests. Maybe it's different in Germany where people just "do what authorities tell them to", but in some countries, revolutions have been fought to guarantee freedom of speech as well as representation (despite current political climate). It's often fortunate that not everyone who dissents actually does something about it, though its unfortunate when not enough happens. Often, voicing dissent bleeds off energy for doing something about it. Romans provided outlets for people's thirst for action via the circuses and their empire lasted for centuries. Tellingly, though, the empire eventually fell, due in large part, to religious differences. ("One-way-ism" being a constant threat to societies as well as social groups). I don't know about every new user, but when there's a large debate -- it nearly always takes up only 1 line on my folder-subject display. I didn't even see the discussion till over 70% of the postings had already been posted (so don't think I started it). I complained when someone was talking about how flexible sysd was, when that has not been my experience. Am I supposed to not provide actual facts based on experience? I didn't (and don't) go off on sysD, nor do I make religious arguments. I try to keep it polite (though my patience is admittedly uneven based on many factors). But the point is, discussions like these are eminently ignorable in a threaded reader. My reader is quite old -- are you saying new users would be unlikely to have even newer technology at their disposal?

It has to stop, ... the threat to the community must be laid out... Not to mention the threat to the social order. ;^/

Some countries stop dissent. Maybe open suse can be surrounded by a virtual "wall of china" type barrier to eliminate social or technical dissent? ;^/ (*raised eyebrow*) I'm very dense when it comes to things -- I'm often accused of saying things I didn't and holding positions I don't, so if you are including me in some group, please be sure to let me know what why and/or what you mean, since I tend to hold myself as "agnostic" rather than religious. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 17 July 2017 at 02:56, L A Walsh wrote:

Richard Brown wrote:

...

Top-posting because I want to address a whole range of points in one mail.

On the potential shutdown of this whole list. I realise that possibility is a heavy one. I do not make it lightly, I consider it a last resort, and I do so well aware of the potential negative consequences of making it.

--- If you are tired of "running" this list, let me know and I'll take it over, as well as creating a opensuse-systemd discussion group.

I am not tired of being responsible for this Project, and when that day comes I will do my best to hand over the reigns to someone who has demonstrated an ability to act in good faith while contributing to the community. That will not be you.

...

On the topic of a new mailinglist. I am not opposed to the idea, but every openSUSE mailinglist should only exist to facilitate communication and collaboration on something which is actively being worked on in the Project. Right now, no one is working on a systemd alternative for openSUSE. So frankly, the idea of a separate list is pointless.

My suggestion is to create a separate venue for all systemd related discussion. That provides a neutral way to recover this list for more general support purposes (other than kernel, factory or systemd topics).

There is already a place to discuss systemd design, such as its flexibility and configurability. It is https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel At this time there is no point creating an openSUSE equivalent to this list, as our maintainers do not need a new list to read when that upstream one works perfectly fine for their current work. That always could change if more contributors got involved, as is the case with the kernel, but it's been 6 years now so I think the situation is unlikely.

...

Right now, the several hundred contributors to openSUSE all support only systemd.

And they all have expressed their choice to do so? And others weren't disallowed contributing due to random problems?

Every single contributor has the right to contribute what they want, how they want. If someone woke up tomorrow and somehow resurrected SysV init support, patched all the upstream projects that no longer support SysV init, and made sure they all worked to our standard level of quality, then I'm sure we'd take those contributions, somehow. I do not buy the 'random problems' nonsense - you could always make a new OBS account if your old one is broken. They are 46891 user accounts on OBS and you are the _only_ person in 12 years to report a broken account. Given they're so easy, and free, to create I think it would be trivial for you to join the 46890 others.

...

But the fact is, the people involved in hating on systemd and discuessing it endlessly have done nothing to correct that.

Some were not allowed to. More to the point -- it wasn't that something "needed to be done" to continue to provide the [then] existing alternative to sysd. I spoke up against removal and gutting of LSB utils like chkconfig to redirect things to sysd, followed by wholesale conversion and removal of scripts from /etc/init.d.

Mostly a result of decisions made by the various upstreams. Maintaining old cruft, which sysVinit now is, requires people to do it. When we have no one to do it, there is nothing to discuss. Ergo, no reason to post a systemd related discussion on this list. And even if there was reason to discuss systemd, something like that isn't a user support topic, so there is no reason to discuss it on this list. This mailinglist is not opensuse-lindas-sandbox@opensuse.org. We will not make such a list to accommodate you. Please keep your conversations relevant to this list, and take your concerns regarding systemd to somewhere more appropriate, such as https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel There will not be an appropriate openSUSE venue for such discussions until contributors actual contribute towards an alternative. I am open to that possibility but the contributions must come first. We've had 6 years of moaning, misusing openSUSE mailinglists for invalid purposes, and no code submissions. You are not welcome to continue in that manner. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/16/2017 10:43 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

Top-posting because I want to address a whole range of points in one mail.

On the potential shutdown of this whole list. I realise that possibility is a heavy one. I do not make it lightly, I consider it a last resort, and I do so well aware of the potential negative consequences of making it. But I think it is in the best interest of this mailinglist that I make it. At the very least it should be a clear reminder that the tone & success of this channel is the collective responsibility of everyone here. There are 1243 subscribers to this list, but a handful are dramatically impeding this lists function as a User support platform. This is something 1200+ people can help manage, some already can be said to be doing so given their responses to this thread, and I thank those people for it.

On the claim of 'tyranny' & 'lack of openness'. I have made these requests openly, to the whole list, as an opportunity for either the individuals involved or the whole list to contribute to a solution to the problem and negate the need for further action. This is an open statement of what is acceptable on this list, justified by the fact that this is the opensuse@opensuse.org _support_ mailinglist and the topic in question is not a _support_ topic. Even if you do not agree with this, no action of any kind will be taken without the explicit approval of the openSUSE Board as the body that is elected by the community to make such decisions. No power will be abused, the people appointed & elected to leadership roles within this community will make the decisions they feel are in the best interest of this community. It is their job to do so, and I think it's open, fair, and transparent to do so with adequate warning. In this case, warning before the Board even discusses the possibility of taking action.

On the topic of a new mailinglist. I am not opposed to the idea, but every openSUSE mailinglist should only exist to facilitate communication and collaboration on something which is actively being worked on in the Project. Right now, no one is working on a systemd alternative for openSUSE. So frankly, the idea of a separate list is pointless. If someone steps up to do work, they already have -factory to discuss technical details, and when those discussions get too much for -factory, spinning out a separate list would be a natural option. But contribution _must_come_first_.

On the topic of 'encouragement vs punishment' iworkingn volunteer organisations. I agree that volunteer organisations run best when people are encouraged to contribute. I wholeheartedly agree. And I contest that, especially with some of the individuals engaging in these problematic discussions, the encouragement to contribute has been endless and yet wholly ineffective. openSUSE is an open project. Right now, the several hundred contributors to openSUSE all support only systemd. The distributions we ship all only support systemd. It doesn't have to be this way. If a tiny fraction of the effort that was spent on arguing about the evils of systemd was spent building an alternative, such an alternative could easily co-exist inside openSUSE.

This is a joke. Many people on the list had ask about not removing syvinit, not getting journald and removing syslog by default etc. Why haven't you banned the sysvinit haters 6 years ago? Why haven't you recommended to fork openSUSE for systemd? Why they could simply remove the well working solution. What would have been the right contribution to prevent the sysvinit removal?

This could be as subtle as convincing all of those hundreds of contributors to support more than one init system (good luck - people have tried and failed, you're asking for a lot of work), or as extreme as a Devuaan style 'fork' of openSUSE, but it wouldn't necessarily have to be a fork because I would quite happily encourage it to be _part_of_the_openSUSE_project_.

You don't get your own point. The systemd implementers are the ones who failed. We should have rejected any submit requests which breaks existing packages. This is how contributions should look like.

But the fact is, the people involved in hating on systemd and discuessing it endlessly have done nothing to correct that. The narrative seems to be to expect the hundreds of contributors to the openSUSE Project to do more work or different work. Work which all of those contributors have clearly shown they will not do. This is a problem that has now lasted as a recurring issue for this list for over 6 years. Just let that settle in - we've been suffering off-topic, irrelevant, systemd discussions for almost half of the time openSUSE has existed.

It has to stop, and sure it is not sweet, nice, or encouraging, but there are times when hard decisions must be made, the threat to the community must be laid out, and an opportunity to correct the situation must be given.

LOL. King Richard has to make hard decisions for us again ...

That is what I set out to do with my original pworkingost to this topic and I hope this post clarifies a few of the finer points so things can move forward in a positive direction.

"positive direction" ... read your own power tripping emails again. Your last emails are the most negative ones recently. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 17/07/17 03:20, John Andersen wrote:

On 07/16/2017 09:49 AM, Daniel Bauer wrote:

...

This not what I want to read. It's a f***ing rant just any other one, just in an even more unfriendly tone. We are not your children, you are not our legal guardian, and if you were, you should search for some help about modern educational methods.

The problem is, this tyrant, much like the others you mention, does have control of this list and he's just crazy enough that he would burn down the village to save the village.

Well, I would like to make a couple of comments about this. 1. Richard does have a point in that this list is for HELP and not for discussions which could well be taken to offtopic or, as someone suggested, to a new list -- when and if created -- dealing with the topic now being "debated". 2. Having said the above, everyone on this list treats each other as a friend and there will always be some jovial banter between people and this should be allowed and not suppressed. As in the past, people participating in this list keep others in check either privately or in public by posting here some comment about behaviour. (Patrick, are you reading? :-).) I would personally hate to see this list turn into one which Ubuntu had and which was Moderated to such a degree that noone was able to say anything which did not deal directly with a technical issue. In the end that technical list was shut down in the manner that Richard suggested may happen to this list. 3. Unlike one person who claimed that Richard should have made his comment not as the President of the Board but as The Board itself, Richard did the correct thing: he signed his post as the Chairman and stated that he will suggest to the Board _AS A WHOLE_ to take action re his suggestion if necessary and, therefore by implication, that it would be the Board as one unit which would make the decision. 4. While all the lists are owned by openSUSE/SUSE and are therefore privately owned lists, meaning that there are rules which participants of these lists have to follow, the lists are nevertheless represent the Community and without the Community there would be no openSUSE, no Board, and no mail lists. 5. And finally, this list has been active for many, many years and it has survived all these years with many "bun fights" and many offtopic comments/discussions. The current "debate" has already been in the limelight some years ago -- and the mail list survived. Let's hope that this current "debate" about an old subject does not mean the demise of this mail iist nor departure of any of its participants. BC -- You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant. Harlan Ellison -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin:

On 17/07/17 03:32, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

...

On 07/16/2017 09:49 AM, Daniel Bauer wrote:

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Am 16.07.2017 um 15:39 schrieb michael norman:

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On 16/07/17 09:47, Richard Brown wrote:

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The opensuse@opensuse.org is meant to be a support mailinglist for the openSUSE distributions.

No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like it.

< snip >

...

...

...

So, consider this a warning. I'm fed of up reading this nonsense and I will work hard to ensure that it stops if the attendees of this list do not make an effort to end it. Now.

< snip >

...

...

You do that and you can say goodbye to me a SUSE user since 5.0 days.

I've never contributed much so my loss won't mean much. But if your view prevails I'm gone.

< snip >

...

This not what I want to read. It's a f***ing rant just any other one, just in an even more unfriendly tone. We are not your children, you are not our legal guardian, and if you were, you should search for some help about modern educational methods.

I've been following this for some time now with popcorn in hand. However, I see that this should not be what it should be about, as a newbie. I also want to comment that the IRC channels, #suse in particular has gotten very insultant, disrespectful, demeaning, and void of dignity from particular ops in there. IS this what openSUSE is about??? jim. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-07-18 12:31, Wols Lists wrote:

On 18/07/17 10:57, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

2. Having said the above, everyone on this list treats each other as a friend and there will always be some jovial banter between people and this should be allowed and not suppressed. As in the past, people participating in this list keep others in check either privately or in public by posting here some comment about behaviour. (Patrick, are you reading? :-).) I would personally hate to see this list turn into one which Ubuntu had and which was Moderated to such a degree that noone was able to say anything which did not deal directly with a technical issue. In the end that technical list was shut down in the manner that Richard suggested may happen to this list.

That was my experience (that I mentioned in the email that started this subthread). Banning off-topic turned that list "dull as ditchwater".

I think we have to tolerate some off-topic in order to keep the list healthy and lively. BUT.

You do need some moderation to keep it on track, and history says that heavy-handed moderation is probably better than none. The moderation on Groklaw was very heavy-handed on occasion, but the result was an extremely popular blog.

If the openSUSE board here have said "enough is enough" then we need to be adult enough to accept it, and back them, otherwise our nice little playground is likely to turn into a cess-pit :-(

It's the board's list, they're putting in the resources, and in the immortal words of Free Software, "if you don't like it, fork it and do it yourself!"

Well, no, it is not the board's list. The resources are hosted by SUSE, not by the board, and most of the work is done by volunteers. The list belongs to the community. The board has to learn how to handle situations without pissing people. Instead, a flame war has been replaced by another. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 18/07/17 20:31, Wols Lists wrote:

On 18/07/17 10:57, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

2. Having said the above, everyone on this list treats each other as a friend and there will always be some jovial banter between people and this should be allowed and not suppressed. As in the past, people participating in this list keep others in check either privately or in public by posting here some comment about behaviour. (Patrick, are you reading? :-).) I would personally hate to see this list turn into one which Ubuntu had and which was Moderated to such a degree that noone was able to say anything which did not deal directly with a technical issue. In the end that technical list was shut down in the manner that Richard suggested may happen to this list. That was my experience (that I mentioned in the email that started this subthread). Banning off-topic turned that list "dull as ditchwater".

I think we have to tolerate some off-topic in order to keep the list healthy and lively. BUT.

You do need some moderation to keep it on track, and history says that heavy-handed moderation is probably better than none. The moderation on Groklaw was very heavy-handed on occasion, but the result was an extremely popular blog.

I think that I already made a comment about this and so I will not repeat myself.

If the openSUSE board here have said "enough is enough" then we need to be adult enough to accept it, and back them, otherwise our nice little playground is likely to turn into a cess-pit :-(

It's the board's list, they're putting in the resources, and in the immortal words of Free Software, "if you don't like it, fork it and do it yourself!"

Well no, the list is not the property of the Board: the list is the property of the owners of the company who own openSUSE and SUSE and is run on their equipment. The Board exists because of the Community and with one exception, as far as I know, the Board members are made up of volunteers from the Community. And also, as far as I know, the owners of the list have asked the Board to administer the running of the mail list(s). BC -- You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant. Harlan Ellison -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 18/07/17 20:26, James wrote:

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On 17/07/17 03:32, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

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On 07/16/2017 09:49 AM, Daniel Bauer wrote:

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Am 16.07.2017 um 15:39 schrieb michael norman:

...

On 16/07/17 09:47, Richard Brown wrote:

...

The opensuse@opensuse.org is meant to be a support mailinglist for the openSUSE distributions.

No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like it.

< snip >

...

...

...

So, consider this a warning. I'm fed of up reading this nonsense and I will work hard to ensure that it stops if the attendees of this list do not make an effort to end it. Now.

< snip >

...

...

You do that and you can say goodbye to me a SUSE user since 5.0 days.

I've never contributed much so my loss won't mean much. But if your view prevails I'm gone.

< snip >

...

This not what I want to read. It's a f***ing rant just any other one, just in an even more unfriendly tone. We are not your children, you are not our legal guardian, and if you were, you should search for some help about modern educational methods.

I've been following this for some time now with popcorn in hand. However, I see that this should not be what it should be about, as a newbie. I also want to comment that the IRC channels, #suse in

Basil Chupin: particular has gotten very insultant, disrespectful, demeaning, and void of dignity from particular ops in there. IS this what openSUSE is about???

jim.

Hi Jim, You say that you are a 'newbie" and therefore you need some advice about how to do correct replies to posts not only here but also elsewhere :-) The header to your post does not have an entry re which mail client you are using but either you get one which can do the job correctly or learn how to use whatever you are using :-). You see, your post begins with my name as the person whose wording you are responding to but _I_ did not say any of the things you quote above! And if you are going to do any "sniping" then learn how to do it correctly. It is very annoying to have one's name shown in a post as being the author of what is being commented on when that is just not the case. BC -- You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant. Harlan Ellison -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 17/07/17 09:20, L A Walsh wrote: Hi Linda, [pruned]

I would like to make a counter proposal: create a different discussion group for sysD. Just as the kernel has its own group, surely sysD has enough size and features to warrant its own group.

[pruned] You obviously do not read all the posts (I think you already mentioned this somewhere in this thread) but Richard has already given the link to an existing mail list where systemd is discussed/argued about/got people to face each other at dawn with pistols/et al. This link is: https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel. BC -- You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant. Harlan Ellison -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 17/07/17 00:20, L A Walsh wrote:

People compared Linus to Leonart. People flocked to Linux because they liked it -- it was a grassroots, bottom-up project. Vs. SystemD: it's forced from the top down. It's not professional jealousy -- its not professional at all. While I've heard the term dictator applied to Linus, it's never been without the the adjective "benevolent". I've yet to see the same adjective applied to the pro-sysD-enforcers.

The big difference between Linus and Leonart is their attitude to bugs. Linus takes the attitude "a regression is a bug", even if the original behaviour really should be classified as a bug - if a change breaks user space then he sees it as a real problem. Leonart, on the other hand, expects things to "work". I'm a bit like that - "if you're going to do it, do it right". As a result, he (and I) upset people when we moan that things are inconsistent, don't behave as expected, etc etc. That's why he rewrote SysVInit as systemd :-) (I'd better not say what I think about that or I'll start another flamewar :-) I'd describe Leonart as a perfectionist. And the pro-systemd crew use it because it works for them. After all, if you don't want systemD, there's always gentoo which uses OpenRC by default - I couldn't get systemD to work - networking was broken so I couldn't complete the install ... Cheers, Wol -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/07/17 21:39, Wols Lists wrote:

On 17/07/17 00:20, L A Walsh wrote:

...

People compared Linus to Leonart. People flocked to Linux because they liked it -- it was a grassroots, bottom-up project. Vs. SystemD: it's forced from the top down. It's not professional jealousy -- its not professional at all. While I've heard the term dictator applied to Linus, it's never been without the the adjective "benevolent". I've yet to see the same adjective applied to the pro-sysD-enforcers. The big difference between Linus and Leonart is their attitude to bugs. Linus takes the attitude "a regression is a bug", even if the original behaviour really should be classified as a bug - if a change breaks user space then he sees it as a real problem.

Leonart, on the other hand, expects things to "work". I'm a bit like that - "if you're going to do it, do it right". As a result, he (and I) upset people when we moan that things are inconsistent, don't behave as expected, etc etc. That's why he rewrote SysVInit as systemd :-) (I'd better not say what I think about that or I'll start another flamewar :-)

I'd describe Leonart as a perfectionist. And the pro-systemd crew use it because it works for them.

After all, if you don't want systemD, there's always gentoo which uses OpenRC by default - I couldn't get systemD to work - networking was broken so I couldn't complete the install ...

Cheers, Wol

Ce`? BC -- You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant. Harlan Ellison -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org