Top-posting because I want to address a whole range of points in one mail.
On the potential shutdown of this whole list. I realise that possibility is a heavy one. I do not make it lightly, I consider it a last resort, and I do so well aware of the potential negative consequences of making it. But I think it is in the best interest of this mailinglist that I make it. At the very least it should be a clear reminder that the tone & success of this channel is the collective responsibility of everyone here. There are 1243 subscribers to this list, but a handful are dramatically impeding this lists function as a User support platform. This is something 1200+ people can help manage, some already can be said to be doing so given their responses to this thread, and I thank those people for it.
On the claim of 'tyranny' & 'lack of openness'. I have made these requests openly, to the whole list, as an opportunity for either the individuals involved or the whole list to contribute to a solution to the problem and negate the need for further action. This is an open statement of what is acceptable on this list, justified by the fact that this is the opensuse@opensuse.org _support_ mailinglist and the topic in question is not a _support_ topic. Even if you do not agree with this, no action of any kind will be taken without the explicit approval of the openSUSE Board as the body that is elected by the community to make such decisions. No power will be abused, the people appointed & elected to leadership roles within this community will make the decisions they feel are in the best interest of this community. It is their job to do so, and I think it's open, fair, and transparent to do so with adequate warning. In this case, warning before the Board even discusses the possibility of taking action.
On the topic of a new mailinglist. I am not opposed to the idea, but every openSUSE mailinglist should only exist to facilitate communication and collaboration on something which is actively being worked on in the Project. Right now, no one is working on a systemd alternative for openSUSE. So frankly, the idea of a separate list is pointless. If someone steps up to do work, they already have -factory to discuss technical details, and when those discussions get too much for -factory, spinning out a separate list would be a natural option. But contribution _must_come_first_.
On the topic of 'encouragement vs punishment' in volunteer organisations. I agree that volunteer organisations run best when people are encouraged to contribute. I wholeheartedly agree. And I contest that, especially with some of the individuals engaging in these problematic discussions, the encouragement to contribute has been endless and yet wholly ineffective. openSUSE is an open project. Right now, the several hundred contributors to openSUSE all support only systemd. The distributions we ship all only support systemd. It doesn't have to be this way. If a tiny fraction of the effort that was spent on arguing about the evils of systemd was spent building an alternative, such an alternative could easily co-exist inside openSUSE. This could be as subtle as convincing all of those hundreds of contributors to support more than one init system (good luck - people have tried and failed, you're asking for a lot of work), or as extreme as a Devuaan style 'fork' of openSUSE, but it wouldn't necessarily have to be a fork because I would quite happily encourage it to be _part_of_the_openSUSE_project_.
But the fact is, the people involved in hating on systemd and discuessing it endlessly have done nothing to correct that. The narrative seems to be to expect the hundreds of contributors to the openSUSE Project to do more work or different work. Work which all of those contributors have clearly shown they will not do. This is a problem that has now lasted as a recurring issue for this list for over 6 years. Just let that settle in - we've been suffering off-topic, irrelevant, systemd discussions for almost half of the time openSUSE has existed.
It has to stop, and sure it is not sweet, nice, or encouraging, but there are times when hard decisions must be made, the threat to the community must be laid out, and an opportunity to correct the situation must be given.
That is what I set out to do with my original post to this topic and I hope this post clarifies a few of the finer points so things can move forward in a positive direction.
On 16 July 2017 at 20:30, Wols Lists antlists@youngman.org.uk wrote:
On 16/07/17 18:32, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
IMHO Richard has a point, possibly poorly made. This list, with a mission of offering support to both new-bees and gray-beards, really doesn't need nastiness and flame wars. Heated theoretical discussions about the UNIX Philosophy, while interesting, probably aren't what a new-comer wants to hear. Someone offered the suggestion of creating a new mailing list, maybe entitled systemd-design, or something. Couldn't Per do that in a few seconds?
But would all the systemd advocates/detractors go there? My experience on a list was that when they tried to push "off topic" stuff to different it didn't work. It just killed the off-topic traffic stone dead, and the result is now a "dull as ditchwater" technical list :-(
It's a hard problem to solve.
Also, I have some experience working within a volunteer organization. I've learned it remarkably difficult to channel volunteers to do what they don't want. Pushing a string comes to mind. Volunteer's energies and morale are better lead by encouragement and example. Threats of any kind just trigger a stampede for the exits. I hope no one abandons us, just when I started to make the case for a new group of technical people to dump Windows and join us.
And who says a stampede for the exits is a bad thing? I haven't read any of the systemd thread but it does seem to have gone rather rogue :-) and maybe we don't want the participants here ... (there is plenty of evidence that activists search out threads, and will join the group/list/forum specifically to participate :-(
And from this particular thread, I get the very strong impression that people are complaining that Richard is doing his job ...
If this is a technical support group, then I would much rather that the systemd advocates/detractors are driven off (because they don't belong here), than that the list is closed. If the openSUSE people have set this up as a support forum, then it's their right to tell abusers of the forum to "bugger off".
It seems to be the elephant in the room that anybody who wishes to provide a support service to the public is expected to put up with any kook/weirdo/nutter who wishes to abuse said service to their own ends :-(
Cheers, Wol
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