Richard Brown wrote:
Top-posting because I want to address a whole range of points in one mail.
On the potential shutdown of this whole list. I realise that possibility is a heavy one. I do not make it lightly, I consider it a last resort, and I do so well aware of the potential negative consequences of making it.
--- If you are tired of "running" this list, let me know and I'll take it over, as well as creating a opensuse-systemd discussion group.
I don't appreciate your response to my post -- as though you are talking to me. Yet I'm in a minority of not hating systemd, but hating that its implementation has been 1) forced, and 2) never resisted only to the point that be implemented in a way as to allow it to co-exist with other parts & pieces of other boot/system service control; and 3) very often, the pieces and infrastructure that allows the existence of an alternative has been removed or sabotaged to disallow alternatives to work.
I maintain that it has always been my want for choice and for the old methods NOT to be deleted and replaced with tools of the same name that won't work with the older methods.
When things were being forced through, it was claimed it was because opensuse was a "do-acracy", yet attempts by myself to even being building through the OBS, were blocked by unexplained problems with some boiling down to my "home directory" on the OBS system being "corrupt" and to try creating another account, with no attention as to why my homedir on a system I'd never used was "corrupt" or identifying a way to fix it.
On the claim of 'tyranny' & 'lack of openness'. I have made these requests openly,
You call "failure to comply will lead to banning..." a "request"?
On the topic of a new mailinglist. I am not opposed to the idea, but every openSUSE mailinglist should only exist to facilitate communication and collaboration on something which is actively being worked on in the Project. Right now, no one is working on a systemd alternative for openSUSE. So frankly, the idea of a separate list is pointless.
My suggestion is to create a separate venue for all systemd related discussion. That provides a neutral way to recover this list for more general support purposes (other than kernel, factory or systemd topics).
Right now, the several hundred contributors to openSUSE all support only systemd.
And they all have expressed their choice to do so? And others weren't disallowed contributing due to random problems?
But the fact is, the people involved in hating on systemd and discuessing it endlessly have done nothing to correct that.
Some were not allowed to. More to the point -- it wasn't that something "needed to be done" to continue to provide the [then] existing alternative to sysd. I spoke up against removal and gutting of LSB utils like chkconfig to redirect things to sysd, followed by wholesale conversion and removal of scripts from /etc/init.d.
The narrative seems to be to expect the hundreds of contributors to the openSUSE Project to do more work or different work. Work which all of those contributors have clearly shown they will not do. This is a problem that has now lasted as a recurring issue for this list for over 6 years. Just let that settle in - we've been suffering off-topic, irrelevant, systemd discussions for almost half of the time openSUSE has existed.
---- As long as it is a problem that many feel disenfranchised, expect protests. Maybe it's different in Germany where people just "do what authorities tell them to", but in some countries, revolutions have been fought to guarantee freedom of speech as well as representation (despite current political climate). It's often fortunate that not everyone who dissents actually does something about it, though its unfortunate when not enough happens. Often, voicing dissent bleeds off energy for doing something about it. Romans provided outlets for people's thirst for action via the circuses and their empire lasted for centuries. Tellingly, though, the empire eventually fell, due in large part, to religious differences. ("One-way-ism" being a constant threat to societies as well as social groups).
I don't know about every new user, but when there's a large debate -- it nearly always takes up only 1 line on my folder-subject display. I didn't even see the discussion till over 70% of the postings had already been posted (so don't think I started it). I complained when someone was talking about how flexible sysd was, when that has not been my experience. Am I supposed to not provide actual facts based on experience? I didn't (and don't) go off on sysD, nor do I make religious arguments. I try to keep it polite (though my patience is admittedly uneven based on many factors).
But the point is, discussions like these are eminently ignorable in a threaded reader. My reader is quite old -- are you saying new users would be unlikely to have even newer technology at their disposal?
It has to stop, ... the threat to the community must be laid out...
Not to mention the threat to the social order. ;^/
Some countries stop dissent. Maybe open suse can be surrounded by a virtual "wall of china" type barrier to eliminate social or technical dissent? ;^/ (*raised eyebrow*)
I'm very dense when it comes to things -- I'm often accused of saying things I didn't and holding positions I don't, so if you are including me in some group, please be sure to let me know what why and/or what you mean, since I tend to hold myself as "agnostic" rather than religious.