- openSUSE ARM

Re: [opensuse-arm] bootstrapping current Factory for ARM
by Joop Boonen 26 Sep '11

26 Sep '11

On Mon, September 26, 2011 1:07 pm, Alexander Graf wrote: > On 09/26/2011 10:26 AM, Guillaume Gardet wrote: >> >> Le 25/09/2011 10:40, Andrew Wafaa a Ã©crit : >>> On 23 September 2011 19:12, Dirk MÃ¼ller<dmueller(a)suse.de> wrote: >>> >>> [...] >>>> We've also setup openSUSE:Factory:ARM, which is supposed to >>>> bootstrap itself >>>> and become a complete Factory distribution. We'll be working on this during >>>> the next week. Currently this project is empty and not yet building due to >>>> some initial issues still. >>>> >>>> Currently we're building armv7el with softfp, although people have been >>>> indicating that we should switch to hardfp, and revive armv5el for the softfp >>>> targets. Any other comments? >>> My thinking behind preferring hardfp is that the boards/systems that we will hopefully be running on (at least initially) will be the newer variaty which support hardfp. My understanding of the situation is that there is a significant gain if using hardfp vs softfp. Saying that though I am open to being educated on the situation. I know our competitors/peers are all switching to hardfp too. >> >> According to GCC man page: >> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/ARM-Options.html >> softfp option uses hardware instructions. >> Quote: >> **************************** >> -mfloat-abi=name >> Specifies which floating-point ABI to use. Permissible values are: >> `soft', `softfp' and `hard'. >> >> Specifying `soft' causes GCC to generate output containing library >> calls for floating-point operations. `softfp' allows the generation of code using hardware floating-point instructions, but still uses the soft-float calling conventions. `hard' allows generation of >> floating-point instructions and uses FPU-specific calling conventions. >> >> The default depends on the specific target configuration. Note >> that the hard-float and soft-float ABIs are not link-compatible; you must compile your entire program with the same ABI, and link with a compatible set of libraries. >> **************************** >> >> So be sure everyone is speaking about the same thing. > > While VFP is still optional in the architecture, I'd say every system we really want to run openSUSE on should have VFP available. If not, I'd much rather go the PowerPC road and implement an FPU emulator in the kernel rather than confine all user space to a slow ABI. Soon targets without FPU will be gone - and we're not targeting the past here. Would this be comparable to the "wm-FPU-emu is an FPU emulator for Linux"? http://kernelhistory.sourcentral.org/linux-0.99.9/S/294.html I think that would be a great option as the primary support will be new hardware while old hardware is still supported. > > So yes, we should go with hardfp. > > > Alex > Joop. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-arm+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-arm+help(a)opensuse.org

2 1

[opensuse-arm] bootstrapping current Factory for ARM
by Dirk Müller 26 Sep '11

26 Sep '11

Hi, The last few days Adrian and I have been working on reviving Base:build:arm, and at least for armv7el we're quite near a complete build. The current state is that we've rebuilt all current sources versions of the toolchain for Factory, and are in a state where it can almost bootstrap itself. I'm saying almost because it seems the gcc4.6 compiler is miscompiling things, so the rpm db corrupts itself quite quickly. I'm still trying to find a fix for that. On the other side we did not get far enough with 4.4 either, so it seems we currently do need a newer compiler. We've also setup openSUSE:Factory:ARM, which is supposed to bootstrap itself and become a complete Factory distribution. We'll be working on this during the next week. Currently this project is empty and not yet building due to some initial issues still. Currently we're building armv7el with softfp, although people have been indicating that we should switch to hardfp, and revive armv5el for the softfp targets. Any other comments? Any help in the form of submitrequests is appreciated :-) Greetings, Dirk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-arm+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-arm+help(a)opensuse.org

7 7

Re: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-arm] Growing some openSUSE ARMs
by Joop Boonen 23 Sep '11

23 Sep '11

On Fri, September 23, 2011 9:16 pm, Jan-Simon Möller wrote: > <snip> > Well cool - why did it take us ~ 1.5 years to notice ;) . > I just dropped factory pack then as it is too much for just one penguin. >> > 2) SUSE are going to be doing another HackWeek (I think it is next >> week) >> > which means Adrian, Alex, Dirk and anyone else that has knowledge, experience or interest can join in the fun and pain almost full time >> for >> > a week - let's not kid ourselves here there is a high probability for lots of pain, but also fun ;-) Thing is HackWeek is not just for SUSE staff, it is also for the community. You can join in and spend some quality time on the project with those that know a whole heap of >> stuff, >> > and learn from them and maybe even teach them something too. >> > We are going to be targeting ARMv7 nothing older I'm afraid this means >> > CORTEX-A8 and above (looking at A9 primarily and then the new A15 when >> > it's available), it gets too messy otherwise and it is already messy enough.If you have knowledge and experience, please help out. If you don't take part you have no justification to complain - you've got to >> be >> > in it to win it ;-) >> > So I'm basically just giving you all a heads up on this effort, and >> will >> > update you as regularly as possible (I'm hoping to do something weekly >> > maybe). In the meantime, if you're interested join #opensuse-arm on Freenode and the opensuse-arm mailing list. *DO NOT HARRASS* for updates, if there is something to say it will be said. If you've got a >> > question, ask and *WAIT* for an answer. If you want to help out but >> want >> > to know how ask and *WAIT* for an answer. I will try and get something >> > on the wiki soon, with a todo list etc. >> I think we should get people like Jan-Simon Möller on board as he started >> the first openSuSE ARM build in 2009 and also the ARM build in OBS. I think it'll kick-start the ARM port. >> > Thanks and here's to getting our Geeko some ARMs. > So let get a crew together - we have the knowledge and the tools. I'm willing to do my part on the weekends and continue what I did back then. > Time to wipe android from the transformer ?! ;) That'll be one mean machine. (Certainly the upcoming Transformer 2 (TF201 ?) with the Tegra Kal El) I have looked into the Tegra2. I've read this story in connection with hardfp. http://www.slashgear.com/meego-tegra-2-drivers-could-end-android-monopoly-o… http://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/07/nvidia-meego-battle-ground/ This looks quite promising. I don't know when these drivers will be available I couldn't find any information yet. > Best, > Jan-Simon Just some information as people are looking into hardware. The trimslice might also be an option as you'll get 45% off as a developer, I don't know if it's still valid. http://trimslice.com/web/dev-kit IMHO the advantage it that there are a lot of Tegra devices Tablets etc. The disadvantage is IMHO that the driver is closed source. I don't know if the nouveau project could change this? Regards, Joop. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-arm+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-arm+help(a)opensuse.org

1 0

Re: [opensuse-arm] Re: [opensuse-factory] Growing some openSUSE ARMs
by Joop Boonen 22 Sep '11

22 Sep '11

On Thu, September 22, 2011 4:42 pm, Markus Slopianka wrote: > On Donnerstag 22 September 2011 16:05:44 Andrew Wafaa wrote: > >> the architecture that powers most of your little devices (and some bigger ones too). Almost all smartphones, tablets and many other consumer devices are powered by ARM from one of the numerous licensees. > > The openSUSE member who were allowed to vote decided that openSUSE does not want to run on > those âlittle devicesâ. http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Strategy says: >> openSUSE does not: >> (...) >> Work on Mobile or embedded devices. See also link: http://news.opensuse.org/2011/08/09/strategy-done/ <quote> The future The team noted that the strategy is of course not set in stone for eternity although we probably wont go through this process every year and asked for further feedback in the mass mailing to the membership. Some comments did indeed come in, most notably asking for the ARM port and mobile devices as well as the impact of the openSUSE Foundation. In the future, the strategy documents will surely require some revision. Once somebody in the openSUSE community steps up to do an ARM port, which is likely to attract significant help, the document will have to be revisited to reflect this, just like Tumbleweed resulted in a change. </quote> Joop -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-arm+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-arm+help(a)opensuse.org

1 0

Re: [opensuse-arm] Re: Growing some openSUSE ARMs
by Joop Boonen 22 Sep '11

22 Sep '11

On Thu, September 22, 2011 5:41 pm, Guillaume Gardet wrote: > > > Le 22/09/2011 16:56, Greg KH a écrit : >> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 03:05:44PM +0100, Andrew Wafaa wrote: >>> We are going to be targeting ARMv7 nothing older I'm afraid this means CORTEX-A8 and above (looking at A9 primarily and then the new A15 when it's available), it gets too messy otherwise and it is already messy enough.If you have knowledge and experience, please help out. If you don't take part you have no justification to complain - you've got to be >>> in it to win it ;-) >> I know we talked about this at the openSUSE conference, and I'm glad that you are starting to kick this off, it's great. >> >> But, what specific machine are you targeting this to run on to start with? We need some kind of specific platform to aim for besides a semi-vague processor level, in order to get a valid kernel and >> tool-chain up and running. The kernel specifically is going to be a bit difficult as each individual platform needs tweaks in order to have it work properly due to the lack of discoverable busses (device-tree work notwithstanding). >> >> In other words, what box do I need to go buy in order to help make this possible? :) > > I think we need more than 1 board to check the port. I think Beagleboard, Beagleboard xM or a Pandaboard could be a nice board to develop openSUSE on ARM (in addition to qemu). > > Firstly, we have to decide what kind of ARM processor we want to support. I think we should target ARMv7 and above Application processor family (Cortex A8, A9 and above) to have enough "power" to run openSUSE. I think we will have poor performances with ARMv5 for openSUSE. > Then, we have to decide which optimization (in GCC) we want to enable. I would say : > - ARM EABI with ARMv7-a instructions > - VFP (vector floating point) > - thumb/thumb2 instructions if possible (some packages do not compile with thumb or thumb2 enabled) > - NEON (not all processor have it, maybe enable it as an option for video libraries for examples to have good performances) I think that if you look at the time that it'll take to have a stable distro, I think it would be best to focus on the Cortex A9 (hardfp etc) with or without NEON. Why start with a distro that is already based on "old" hardware. Nearly all tablets are using a Cortex A9 (mostly in the form of a Tegra 2). That has one small downside. This one doesn't have a NEON FPU at least not one that meets the full specs. What are the plans for a openSuSE ARM distro. Where should it run on? I think as a distro it would be useful to have it running on a tablet like the Asus Transformer and upcoming ARM Cortex A15 servers. > > Interesting pages: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ARM_microprocessor_cores > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture > > I have experiences in embedded Linux and I have a beagleboard xM, so I can help if you want. But I have no experiences in RPM packaging. I would like to take part. I have Pandaboard (OMAP4430) and Toshiba AC100 (Tegra2). > > AFAIK, someone worked on ARM port some time ago in google summer of code. It could be nice to know what have been done. > > Cheers, > > Guillaume Joop. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-arm+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-arm+help(a)opensuse.org

1 0

Re: [opensuse-arm] Re: Growing some openSUSE ARMs
by Joop Boonen 22 Sep '11

22 Sep '11

On Thu, September 22, 2011 5:22 pm, Alexander Graf wrote: > > Am 22.09.2011 um 17:13 schrieb Pavol Rusnak <prusnak(a)opensuse.org>: > >> On 09/22/2011 04:56 PM, Greg KH wrote: >>> In other words, what box do I need to go buy in order to help make this possible? :) >> >> I think BeagleBoard (Cortex-A8) or PandaBoard (Cortex-A9) would be a good start. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeagleBoard >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PandaBoard > > To kick thibgs off (and for easy development), I would target QEMU, so everyone can try it out and attach gdb when needed. > > I agree though that we need to target one particular board for real hw development, so things don't get more painful than they have to be. I'm reasonably indifferent on what we're targeting there, but it should be < 200â¬ and widely available. I think the best choice would be the snowball board of the igloo community. http://www.igloocommunity.org/ http://shop.strato.com/epages/61428605.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61428605… It'll set you back 164.00 excluding tax and postage for version with GPS/bluetooth and wifi. The reason why I think the snowball is the best choice is because it's using the ST-Ericsson Nova A9500 processor (Dual Cortex A9 + Mali 400 GPU) like the Samsung Exynos 4210 SoC. The advantage of this board over the pandaboard is that it has a OSS video driver (GPL and MIT license), while the SGX540 driver is closed source. http://www.malideveloper.com/developer-resources/drivers/open-source-mali-g… I have the the Pandaboard the problem is the current SGX drivers don't work for hardfp, which I think is the best for a openSuSE ARM distro. If it's decided to use this board I wouldn't mind ordering it together with people near me, the postage is quite high 32.56 excluding tax, to the Netherlands. I live in Limburg (SE Netherlands), near Germany and Belgium. > > Either way, for bootstrapping going with an emulated platform is probably more useful. Once we have a proper base system, let's go for the real fun and target a board. > > > Alex-- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-arm+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org > For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-arm+help(a)opensuse.org > Regards, Joop. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-arm+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-arm+help(a)opensuse.org

1 0

RE: [opensuse-arm] Re: Growing some openSUSE ARMs
by J.Witvliet＠mindef.nl 22 Sep '11

22 Sep '11

From: Greg KH [mailto:gregkh@suse.de] Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 4:57 PM To: Andrew Wafaa Cc: openSUSE ARM ML; openSUSE Project ML; openSUSE Factory ML Subject: [opensuse-arm] Re: Growing some openSUSE ARMs On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 03:05:44PM +0100, Andrew Wafaa wrote: > We are going to be targeting ARMv7 nothing older I'm afraid this means > CORTEX-A8 and above (looking at A9 primarily and then the new A15 when > it's available), it gets too messy otherwise and it is already messy > enough.If you have knowledge and experience, please help out. If you > don't take part you have no justification to complain - you've got to be > in it to win it ;-) I know we talked about this at the openSUSE conference, and I'm glad that you are starting to kick this off, it's great. But, what specific machine are you targeting this to run on to start with? We need some kind of specific platform to aim for besides a semi-vague processor level, in order to get a valid kernel and tool-chain up and running. The kernel specifically is going to be a bit difficult as each individual platform needs tweaks in order to have it work properly due to the lack of discoverable busses (device-tree work notwithstanding). In other words, what box do I need to go buy in order to help make this possible? :) thanks, greg k-h -----Original Message----- HP has some small general purpose ARM-boxes. See: http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/13500_na/13500_na.HTML They are around $100,-- ______________________________________________________________________ Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien u niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezonden, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verwijderen. De Staat aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor schade, van welke aard ook, die verband houdt met risico's verbonden aan het elektronisch verzenden van berichten. This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. The State accepts no liability for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent in the electronic transmission of messages. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-arm+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-arm+help(a)opensuse.org

3 2

RE: [opensuse-arm] timeline?
by J.Witvliet＠mindef.nl 29 Aug '11

29 Aug '11

-----Original Message----- From: Bill Merriam [mailto:lists@billmerriam.com] Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 9:58 PM To: opensuse-arm(a)opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-arm] timeline? Hans, I too (and others) have wondered about this. The recently approved openSUSE strategy said, I think, that mobile devices are not a goal for openSUSE. You and I know that most mobile devices use ARM processors but there are a few desktop class devices that do also. More ARM desktop and server devices are expected in the near future. Ubuntu has announced that they intend to support ARM servers. They are current testing using Pandaboards. In the mean time I believe the openSUSE project's response to your question is "Thank you for volunteering". That have said a port to ARM is welcome but they can provide only general assistance. The Linaro foundation has links to development hardware. http://www.linaro.org/low-cost-development-boards Compulab is offering discounts on their Trimslice desktops is you can convince them you will use it to port an open source project to ARM. http://trimslice.com/web/dev-kit Marvell has a number of development kits available for purchase. Most of them are ARM5 processors but the not-yet-available D2plug is an ARM7 processor. http://plugcomputer.org/development-kits/ As you know the OBS can build ARM packages. openSUSE uses kiwi to turn those packages in to deploy-able images. I don't think it has been tested on ARM but it is written in PERL and should be easy to port. So there you go. Talk your employer into buying a few development kits. Install another distribution on it. Port kiwi to that and try to build an openSUSE image for it. In days, weeks, months or years you will have a working openSUSE distribution. I am sure you win a t-shirt for that :). Bill -----Original Message----- Tnx for the reply Bill, Yeah, I think I can understand their strategy. For the end-user-market, there is little love to gain employing a full arm-based distro: few people will be willing to play with their phone this way. OTOH, seeing the rising popularity of tablets, we are at the starting point of a fast rising market share. And for larger organizations/companies, using those ultra-thin clients, could be an answer to rising maintenance costs for desktops/laptops. I got people who are fed-up with picking up their laptop from their locker in the morning, and putting them back in the evening. A cheap (sub $100) thin-client would be ideal: -all identical configured -no hardware maintenance : just replace faulty one's If (...) SuSE could produce a bootable thinclient, it could promote business for their remote desktops on SLES. Regarding hardware, I already got a couple of HP's and Athena boxes. They were given to my team with a note "see what you can do with them". Indeed I noticed the presence of ARM packages on the OBS, but I've got no idea how much is already there. I mean for a thinclient, you need networking (net-boot), simple X-server and remote desktopclient. (actually I wonder how the builders ever tested their packages.) As for kiwi, afaicr you can do a cross-build (at least I managed to create a bootable 32-system, created on a 64-bit build environment). But here also: I can not determine if everything kiwi needs is there. Perhaps I should ask Andreas Schaeffer on/or the kiwi-list. Kind regards, Hans ______________________________________________________________________ Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien u niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezonden, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verwijderen. De Staat aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor schade, van welke aard ook, die verband houdt met risico's verbonden aan het elektronisch verzenden van berichten. This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. The State accepts no liability for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent in the electronic transmission of messages. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-arm+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-arm+help(a)opensuse.org

1 0

[opensuse-arm] timeline?
by J.Witvliet＠mindef.nl 27 Aug '11

27 Aug '11

Hi all, Is there any rough idea if/when something bootable will be available? Point is, people want to replace desktops with HP-thinclients, And the (VIA) HP T5550 is more than double the price of the (ARM) HP T5335. For a dozen or so that should not matter, but for serious (3+ digits) numbers.... Furthermore some of us here would like to see a tablet running Linux. Personally, I would rather see SuSE on it, but is that realistic? I noticed that on the OBS, under "Ports" there is a 11.2/crosscompiled/arm7 tree Any progress been made towards a more-or-less full distro? Hans (hoping it gets through...) ______________________________________________________________________ Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien u niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezonden, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verwijderen. De Staat aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor schade, van welke aard ook, die verband houdt met risico's verbonden aan het elektronisch verzenden van berichten. This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. The State accepts no liability for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent in the electronic transmission of messages. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-arm+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-arm+help(a)opensuse.org

2 1

[opensuse-arm] openSUSE arm status?
by Guillaume Gardet 05 Jul '11

05 Jul '11

Hi, I did not find answers to my question on the web so I will ask here. What is the status of openSUSE for ARM? Is there repositories and/or images, so that we can boot openSUSE on ARM boards? I have a beagleboard xM, so if I can help, let me know! :) Guillaume -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-arm+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-arm+help(a)opensuse.org

1 0