On 2008/08/30 11:26 (GMT+0200) Stephan Binner apparently typed:

On Friday 29 August 2008 18:45:28 Felix Miata wrote:

...

Until https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152761 is fixed there's no way many of us can consider using KDE4.

That's a perfect example of what will not prevent the discussed move: command lines (esp. many of them at same time) are mainly used by sophisticated people and I expect those to be able to install and use Konsole/KDE3.

You know the root meaning of "assume", right? An assumption is what your statement implies, an unwarranted one at that. I'm not that sophisticated, probably the opposite, not being versed in shell scripting at all. That doesn't make Konsole any less useful to me. It's easier to use Konsole than the triple key combination required to get to a virtual console, the natural home of OFMs, which is what I use to do all my routine file & system maintenance chores (typically MC). The non-routine ones I do with YaST2. Therefore, I keep at least one MC session open in Konsole, another tab for simple one liners (so that I don't have to keep opening "run command" and having the results instantly disappear from the idiotic default to not keep window open on completion of the command), and a third for top. On another virtual desktop I have another Konsole open for tailing various logs. I like having all those things in the same places/tabs always (order), instead of the separate windows that KDE strews about seemingly at random according to whatever else is open (chaos). There's also the other problem of figuring out how to get KDE3 after a fresh install after not wasting space installing the unwanted Gnome & incomplete, buggy, beta KDE. I use YaST and/or Smart GUI for such things. Without one of those, how does one figure out what package or packages are required to get a familiar, traditional, complete KDE3 desktop? Curses YaST, while better than nothing, is no fun. People should need it just because they don't like Gnome or KDE betas guised as ready for prime time. Indeed, without YaST2, why SUSE at all? I might as well just pick whatever distro that offers KDE3 easily, and keep on efficiently doing things the way I'm used to, instead of being forced to waste time learning a "new & improved" system that leaves out tools I depend on and simplifies away the ability to get some things done at all. -- "Love is not easily angered. Love does not demand its own way." 1 Corinthians 13:5 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 31 August 2008 00:56:17 Fred A. Miller wrote:

not KDE 3.5 included in the next openSUSE release and FULL support for it, then GUARANTEED - flat out FACT, there will be a mass exodus to KUbutu!

What do you know about the KDE 3.5 plans of Kubuntu?

not being able to do something as simple as hid the task bar, let alone a

That's actually a thing which is considered to be backported. Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag 29 August 2008 schrieb Felix Miata:

On 2008/08/29 17:55 (GMT+0200) Michael Loeffler apparently typed:

...

Please bring up your opinion so that we're doing the right thing for openSUSE 11.1

Until https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152761 is fixed there's no way many of us can consider using KDE4.

Looks like it will be fixed by tomorrow :) Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 29 August 2008 19:06:11 Christoph Thiel wrote:

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 06:53:30PM +0100, Carlos Goncalves wrote:

...

Pros: - openSUSE provides KDE3 - less "trash" (packages) installed by default

Do you have a list of packages that you think could be left out? ;) I'm definitely interested in suggestions here!

I think you are asking it with the intention of reducing the amount of packages on LiveCDs so the image could fit in a CD, right? :-) It was not what I was referring to, sorry. I was comparing the amount of packages that DVD installs versus CD. I'm against installation of lots of packages by default if the majority of users won't never need/use them. I rather like have a very very clean system with the basic apps (the ones KDE{3,4} LiveCD has basically serves most users needs I think) plus a few others required for special needs, non-oss codecs and wireless firmwares. I would love to point some "unneeded" packages out but I don't use DVDs anymore to install openSUSE since 10.3, though I might try it if you want my personal opinion. Summarising: DVD -> select KDE3/KDE4 -> install packages as it had been from a LiveCD + non-oss codecs and wireless firmwares. Just that. -- Regards, Carlos Goncalves --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 31 August 2008 14:11:28 Christian Morales Vega wrote:

if KDE 3.5.10 isn't available. Just keep a copy of the KDE3 spec files and patches in the OBS in case someone wants to mantain them.

Just for clarification, nobody is planning to remove KDE:KDE3 OBS repository (that includes keeping it building and publishing binary packages). Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

¡ElCheVive! pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

2008/8/29 Andreas Stieger <Andreas.Stieger@gmx.de>:

...

Hi,

...

as discussed in a former project meeting we should discuss how we handle KDE in openSUSE 11.1. To avoid any misunderstanding we will offer on the DVD still KDE and Gnome. It just the question which or how many KDE's ;-) I think it would be okay to make the DVD KDE4 only because of the space constraints. Users who want to stay on KDE3 could get it from the repositories or stay on the 11.0 altogether. It's a great release for KDE3 so

Am Freitag, 29. August 2008 17:55:07 schrieb Michael Loeffler: there's less reason to upgrade. (package management, I'm looking at you!)

We should really focus on the quality and integration of KDE4. I'm saying that as a hardcore KDE3 user. Note that for 11.1 we have a shorter development cycle of six months. We should delever an excellently packaged and thouroughly tested KDE4 with KDE3 in maintainance mode.

regards, Andreas

+1

Luiz

Keep in mind that people were not complaining so much of bugs with KDE4 in 11.0, they were complaining of missing features. It matters not how well you package it and how bug free it is if features are missing people will complain. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 30 August 2008 01:14:07 Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

If KDE 3.5 is dropped from the DVD media will it be present in SLED 11.0 media? I think at this point dropping KDE 3.5 from the openSUSE

KDE 3.5 (the desktop shell, single apps will) will not be on SLED 11 media independent from outcome of this discussion what to include in openSUSE. Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat August 30 2008 12:43:30 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 5:30 AM, Stephan Binner <stbinner@suse.de> wrote:

...

KDE 3.5 (the desktop shell, single apps will) will not be on SLED 11 media independent from outcome of this discussion what to include in openSUSE.

Well, then I doubt many corps will use it. SLED and SLES should be the LAST ones to adopt a new desktop. Look at how corporations are paying extra for the Vista "downgrade" so that they can continue to use XP. Whoever thinks that a corp will migrate to SLED v11.0 when it doesn't have KDE 3.x isn't doing their homework.

I've made known my position on KDE4 before and won't bring it up here. While I have updated my main box to the newest 4.1(which happened when I had to re-install KTorrent because it was broken on only MY account), I haven't had time to try it out to see if it was any better.

Until and unless KDE 4.x is a fully functional replacement for 3.5.x, which it is NOT at present, my company will neither install, nor reccommend any version of openSuSE (or any other distro for that matter) that does not include KDE 3.5.x as a choice during installation without making people jump through hoops, downloading stuff from repos (not everyone has easy access to networking and depends on all installable software to be on the distribution media) or requiring deinstallation of a 'beta-quality' desktop and reconfiguration and installation of a stable and functional and currently available desktop currently known as KDE 3.5.9. When, and IF, at some point in the future, the promise of KDE 4.x is fully realized and is fully functional and not requiring users to file 'bug reports' or 'feature requests' in order to regain functions they already have in the existing release of KDE 3.5.9+, I will be, and my company will be happy to support it, install it and reccommend it, but not until then. We have better things to do than file bug reports or find work arounds for features that currently work satisfactorily in KDE 3.5.9+. If SuSE v11.1 co-releases both desktop environments without dropping the other options (like Gnome, etc), then my and my companies suppport for openSuSE will remain, but if openSuSE doggedly and stupidly insists on creating extra work for me and my employees, then 11.0 is the last release we will recommend or use. I don't feel we are alone in this attitude, we just aren't as vociferous as the ones as want to ram an inferior, incomplete destop product down our throats in the name of 'progress'. Richard Creighton Computer Software Consultants, Inc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Richard wrote:

On Sat August 30 2008 12:43:30 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

...

...

KDE 3.5 (the desktop shell, single apps will) will not be on SLED 11 media independent from outcome of this discussion what to include in openSUSE. Well, then I doubt many corps will use it. SLED and SLES should be

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 5:30 AM, Stephan Binner <stbinner@suse.de> wrote: the LAST ones to adopt a new desktop. Look at how corporations are paying extra for the Vista "downgrade" so that they can continue to use XP. Whoever thinks that a corp will migrate to SLED v11.0 when it doesn't have KDE 3.x isn't doing their homework.

I've made known my position on KDE4 before and won't bring it up here. While I have updated my main box to the newest 4.1(which happened when I had to re-install KTorrent because it was broken on only MY account), I haven't had time to try it out to see if it was any better.

Until and unless KDE 4.x is a fully functional replacement for 3.5.x, which it is NOT at present, my company will neither install, nor reccommend any version of openSuSE (or any other distro for that matter) that does not include KDE 3.5.x as a choice during installation without making people jump through hoops, downloading stuff from repos (not everyone has easy access to networking and depends on all installable software to be on the distribution media) or requiring deinstallation of a 'beta-quality' desktop and reconfiguration and installation of a stable and functional and currently available desktop currently known as KDE 3.5.9.

When, and IF, at some point in the future, the promise of KDE 4.x is fully realized and is fully functional and not requiring users to file 'bug reports' or 'feature requests' in order to regain functions they already have in the existing release of KDE 3.5.9+, I will be, and my company will be happy to support it, install it and reccommend it, but not until then. We have better things to do than file bug reports or find work arounds for features that currently work satisfactorily in KDE 3.5.9+. If SuSE v11.1 co-releases both desktop environments without dropping the other options (like Gnome, etc), then my and my companies suppport for openSuSE will remain, but if openSuSE doggedly and stupidly insists on creating extra work for me and my employees, then 11.0 is the last release we will recommend or use.

I don't feel we are alone in this attitude, we just aren't as vociferous as the ones as want to ram an inferior, incomplete destop product down our throats in the name of 'progress'.

I'll add, that not only will I NOT use 11.1, but I'll be "done" with openSUSE and Novell....both. There are alternatives and I'll use them for my systems and ALL of my clients. Fred -- "Security" in Windows comes from patching a sieve. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Druid wrote:

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 8:02 PM, Fred A. Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com> wrote: <almost all bla bla bla trimmed>

...

for my systems and ALL of my clients.

Fred,

Stick to the relevant topic, we dont want to know about your feelings, life and etc. It has nothing to do with opensuse-factory. People signed up to opensuse-factory dont wanna now, seriously.

Well, too bad. It IS relevant. Wrong decisions affect ALL of us. Further, I'm certainly not alone in my view.

That said, I like the approach done in 11.0, and it could be kept that way, imho.

Of course it can and should be done. I just want to know if it is or isn't. If not, then there are going to be a lot of us who have a decision to make. Fred -- "Security" in Windows comes from patching a sieve. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Druid wrote:

...

Well, too bad. It IS relevant. Wrong decisions affect ALL of us. Further, I'm certainly not alone in my view.

Its not too bad. Its annoying and offtopic. I couldn't care less what you are going to do today, tomorrow, next month. Its not as if you were Eva Longoria, then I' d be all about hearing news from you. But even in this case, it wouldn't be in opensuse-factory.

Nor do I care what you like or don't like in my posts! It IS on topic, and others have expressed their displeasure as well. Fred -- "Security" in Windows comes from patching a sieve. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat August 30 2008 11:24:41 pm Druid wrote:

On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 12:17 AM, Fred A. Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com> wrote silly stuff: <bla bla bla deleted>

It is not on topic, so you should care about it and not pollute the list with silliness. Take it to opensuse-whining@opensuse.org

This thread was started by a member of a representative of Novell and included input from Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier openSUSE Community Manager soliciting input and opinion relative to the subject. It is relative to the subject if by the openSuSE-Factory minions perpetuating a mistake that erstwhile loyal openSuSE Linux users and fans are alienated to the point of seeking other distributions and actively removing openSuSE from their and their clients systems. That is what is happening because a few vociferous enthusiastic proponents of what potentially will become a future standard are trying to ram it down the throat of everyone. I hasten to point out that one of the goals of openSuSE Linux is to promote Linux and attract NEW users, users that are by definition unfamiliar with Linux, SuSE in general and most certainly with anything remotely approaching a CLI because most of the world still uses Windoze in some form or another and that means most NEW users of openSuSE are not Linux literate. For the developers of KDE and those that are familiar with testing and debugging, the current state of KDE 4.x is absolute paridise, for anyone trying to do real work, trying to convert their mentality from Windoze to Linux and just expect/hope that 'it just works' because if it doesn't, they have no clue, then KDE 4.1 is an unmitigated disaster and is NOT the cutting edge of technology, it is a dull saw blade that still needs a lot of work to be called a cutting device of any type. The opensuse-factory list is where the developers and managers and decision makers 'live' and pertainent opinions and feedback relavent to a question THEY posed is most definitely ON TOPIC because if it isn't, then the question is off topic in the first place, and the whole mailing list borders on totally worthless, as openSuSE will be if mistakes like 4.1 are allowed to continue without checks and balance. I totally condone continued support and development of KDE 4.x, I totally abhor ramming it down our throats and removing features and software that is useful and relatively complete and stable in the misguided name of 'progress'. Richard Creighton CSC, Inc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-08-31 at 09:58 +0200, Stephan Binner wrote:

On Sunday 31 August 2008 01:02:53 Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

I'll add, that not only will I NOT use 11.1, but I'll be "done" with for my systems and ALL of my clients.

Do you really think that threats like this or "my company will not use openSUSE anymore" add anything to the discussion or will change anything?

I think it does add to the discussion and it should change your thinking. It is not a "threat", but a clue of what some of your clients think. If a client warns me that he will not buy my product if I implement a certain change, I would take that very seriously. Seriously enough to do a survey and find out if that would be a generalized behavior. A client may be vociferous. What he says may or may not be what everybody thinks. Some will think the same, but not say it, and act later with their purses. Some will think and/or act different. Do a survey and find out. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQFIxEFLtTMYHG2NR9URAg9UAKCHHDAlPslB+9G4oEDNIDDmcfmiXACWMNpn EGLl6iDGfdoSLogbjiPWoA== =eFR1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-09-08 at 01:05 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Do you really think that threats like this or "my company will not use openSUSE anymore" add anything to the discussion or will change anything? If a client warns me that he will not buy my product if I implement a certain change, I would take that very seriously.

Sure thing. In the case of openSUSE it's more "use" than "buy", though. ;-)

Rrrright :-) Although sles was also mentioned somewhere, you can modify the above: if a certain change of a free/gratis product would generate less users wanting it, I wold worry; unless I made that product for my own use, and the rest of the users were thus meaningless for me ;-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIxGaRtTMYHG2NR9URAgkWAJ9uj9616+p4pFtSM3g9alMscA6wVQCfS7rD CxVhfhhp/FD1LaMVDJFMf5w= =Kgcm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler escribió:

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 5:30 AM, Stephan Binner <stbinner@suse.de> wrote:

...

KDE 3.5 (the desktop shell, single apps will) will not be on SLED 11 media independent from outcome of this discussion what to include in openSUSE.

Well, then I doubt many corps will use it. SLED and SLES should be the LAST ones to adopt a new desktop. Look at how corporations are paying extra for the Vista "downgrade" so that they can continue to use XP. Whoever thinks that a corp will migrate to SLED v11.0 when it doesn't have KDE 3.x isn't doing their homework.

While I agree with you in the fact that KDE 4 is far from being ready from prime-time, the task of commercially support TWO KDE desktops for 7 or more years is just an insane idea. Well, back to openSUSE, I think we should keep both KDE 3 and KDE4 just the way it is in 11.0 and discuss what to do again in the 11.2 timeframe. -- "A computer is like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. " Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2008-08-30 at 14:02 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez wrote: ...

While I agree with you in the fact that KDE 4 is far from being ready from prime-time, the task of commercially support TWO KDE desktops for 7 or more years is just an insane idea.

Perhaps. But if I have to buy SLES and it comes with kde 4 only, I would not buy it. As simple as that. No experiments, please, but fully functional and polished software.

Well, back to openSUSE, I think we should keep both KDE 3 and KDE4 just the way it is in 11.0 and discuss what to do again in the 11.2 timeframe.

+1 KDE3 should not be that difficult to maintain. There are no improvements to apply, no changes. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIxELJtTMYHG2NR9URAinvAJ0RpkqzKE7gEaqJUioM3pEMi2wj+ACfXgW3 Uo9kABkaW3j+BmrIpME/Y8c= =g6QN -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

2008/8/30 Stephan Binner <stbinner@suse.de>:

On Saturday 30 August 2008 01:14:07 Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

...

If KDE 3.5 is dropped from the DVD media will it be present in SLED 11.0 media? I think at this point dropping KDE 3.5 from the openSUSE

KDE 3.5 (the desktop shell, single apps will) will not be on SLED 11 media independent from outcome of this discussion what to include in openSUSE.

Bye, Steve

This was interesting. We are using some SLED/SLES, but we do not consider KDE 4.x to be acceptable there as these are used in environments requireing the highest stability. (Other plasces we use openSUSE ++) A problematic issue is this whole issue with the NVIDIA's driver issue. (Although this migh have improved in the latest beta a few days ago) But generally, my vote is for openSUSE to go KDE4.x and leave KDE3.x in maintenance mode. If KDE 3.x is needed, please use an older openSUSE distro. (SLES/SLED though should have both :-) ) Regards Birger --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler escribió:

Actually, it amazes me that no one even bothered to reply to any of the comments I left suggesting that 11.1 be delayed so that it can include a fully working KDE 4.2.

Maybe because is probably not doable atm ? -- "A computer is like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. " Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/

On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 11:03 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@suse.de> wrote:

...

Maybe because is probably not doable atm ?

KDE v4.2 is scheduled to be released on January 27th. That's just a little over a month past the current projection for 11.1. Therefore, if 11.1 is delayed to February, it's possible that it could have 4.2 in it instead of being released just prior to and having 4.1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I'm just an observer on this thread thus far, but from what I'm reading in this post, that certainly doesn't sound like a good idea. A) You have no idea how good 4.2 really will be. It could be fraught with bugs to the glory, usability issues, and whatnot. This really sounds like putting the cart before the horse. B) That proposed new release schedule certainly puts pressure on the distro release, as it doesn't give us time to truly and fully vet the effectiveness of KDE 4.2 on 11.1. I don't see why a repository couldn't be created after 11.1 is released allowing users who choose to do so to add 4.2 of their own will. But to put an entire distro on hold for a version release just doesn't seem to make much sense, as the distro is a compilation of many things, not just one thing. Bryen --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 30 August 2008 07:42:38 Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

Seeing as how there isn't a KDE 3.5 live disc for 11.0 and now their is talk of trying to drop 3.5 for 11.1 I doubt there will be a 3.5 livecd on 11.1.

There exists a community-created KDE 3.5 live disc for 11.0 and the same could happen again for 11.1 if someone stands up to create it. Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 30 August 2008 16:17:29 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 5:15 AM, Stephan Binner <stbinner@suse.de> wrote:

...

There exists a community-created KDE 3.5 live disc for 11.0 and the same could happen again for 11.1 if someone stands up to create it.

For anyone interested, I think Stephan is referring to these:

Or http://cgoncalves.blogspot.com/2008/08/opensuse-110-kde3-live-cds.html http://www.cgoncalves.info/suse/kde3-livecd/ ;-) -- Regards, Carlos Goncalves --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat August 30 2008 6:47:34 pm Fred A. Miller wrote:

Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

...

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:01 PM, 69_rs_ss <a69.rs.ss@gmail.com> wrote:

...

How about a DVD with Gnome, XFCE4 and KDE 4.x and then a supplementary LiveCD with KDE3 on it? That is a kind of compromise between options a & b.

Seeing as how there isn't a KDE 3.5 live disc for 11.0 and now their is talk of trying to drop 3.5 for 11.1 I doubt there will be a 3.5 livecd on 11.1.

Yes, there IS a live CD (32 and 64-bit) but not official releases. Dropping 3.5 is plain ignorant!! Dumb! Stupid!!

Fred

I think Andrew got it backward.... I think it should have been: How about a DVD with Gnome, XFCE4 and KDE3.5.9 and then a supplementary liveCD with KDE4.x on it? That is a kind of a compromise between options a&b. Fred, what you said: +10 Richard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 30 August 2008 06:14:09 pm Fred A. Miller wrote: ...

I'll prepare now that I'll be replacing all openSUSE on my systems AND client systems or not with KUbuntu and RH for enterprise boxen.

So be it. I'm old enough to be a witness of many irreplaceable people, customs and things are going away, but Earth is still moving around the Sun. KDE3 is old and it will disappear once and world will go on. KDE4 is new now, and in some years when different input methods and real 3D come to the market it will be run over with something that we can hardly imagine, and Sun will shine anyway. Many will go away because of KDE4, but more will come. There is nothing distribution can do about peoples choices, but living in a dreams of old glory was always bad idea. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 30 August 2008, 69_rs_ss wrote:

Michael Loeffler wrote:

How about a DVD with Gnome, XFCE4 and KDE 4.x and then a supplementary LiveCD with KDE3 on it? That is a kind of compromise between options a & b. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

How about a an just about beta dvd to hang things like KDE4 etal on and a full proper DVD for KDE3.5.x -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 4:24 PM, ¡ElCheVive! <elchevive68@gmail.com> wrote:

As I think openSUSE is not intend to be an enterprise product (as SLED/SLES is) and the focus is on a home user (internet, mail, office, music/video thinks) KDE4 is fine, beatiful and a step forward. For a heavy/developer user KDE4 might be lack some features, but as Stephan said before, you can simple install the apps from KDE3, like I did with KBabel, while Localize is not yet that good....

Just because youself and other users want a "beautiful" desktop, doesn't mean that a lot of others want it as well. I personally turn off all that garbage. I don't use Compiz. I turn off desktop effects. I turn off sound notifications. That stuff doesn't make me more productive, it just wastes processing power for no gain. KDE4 is a huge shift away from what made KDE such a great desktop. The devs really should have had a clue that they would end up having a lot of negative feedback. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 30 August 2008, ¡ElCheVive! wrote:

Hi,

As I think openSUSE is not intend to be an enterprise product (as SLED/SLES is) and the focus is on a home user (internet, mail, office, music/video thinks) KDE4 is fine, beatiful and a step forward. For a heavy/developer user KDE4 might be lack some features, but as Stephan said before, you can simple install the apps from KDE3, like I did with KBabel, while Localize is not yet that good.... So, offering the two DEs should be the best option, even though I prefer you guys focused only in KDE4

regards,

Luiz Fernando

2008/8/30 peter nikolic <p.nikolic1@btinternet.com>:

It has to be said i fail to see the need for a list reply and a personal reply the list reply is plenty i dont want my inbox filled with duplicates from lists i case you failed to make the connection i am ANTI KDE4.x and PRO KDE3.5.x hence installing working apps into an at best only partially functional KDE4.x it no answer why would you want to use your good working apps in a suspect desktop YMMV mine does not Pete . PS List replies only PLEASE !!! -- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 30 August 2008 12:28:24 Anders Johansson wrote:

Will you be backporting from 4.2? I'm currently running 4.1.63 from UNSTABLE (which isn't so unstable, btw) and there are some nice things in there which I would like to see if 4.1 is the only KDE desktop

If there is time. Add your things to http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Ideas/11.1 Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat August 30 2008 11:13:18 am Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Michael Loeffler <michl@novell.com> wrote:

...

What can/should we do? b) We may add again both KDEs to the DVD Pros: we offer choice and may make everybody happy Cons: - space limitations on DVD may prevent this option - maintenance and integration of 2 KDE desktops needed which the internal KDE team hardly can accomplish - we're backing a desktop which anyway won't receive much attention from upstream anymore - confusion - which KDE should I choose

I'm in favor of B -- with a clear statement that 11.1 would be the last release that features KDE 3.5x on "official" DVD.

Right now, while I think 4.1 is a clear improvement, it's still a major change from 3.5x and we still see a lot of users who want to use 3.5. We ought to include 3.5.10 release as a desktop option for 11.1, and start looking to the community to take up stewardship of KDE 3.5 packages around 11.2.

This certainly isn't the most convenient path, but I think it's the best path for our users with 11.1.

Best,

Zonker

I hope your level of 'sanity' prevails. No one is saying STOP to 4.x. No one is saying DEVELOP 3.5x in parallel, they are saying KEEP 3.5x UNTIL 4.x matures enough to legitimately replace 3.5x without having to beg, file endless bug-reports and enhancement requests to get functions already existant in 3.5x back. There is little overhead in simply INCLUDING 3.5x in all distros until 4.x is competent to replace it in all functional respects. I, and my company WANT 4.x to succeed and more than that, we WANT LINUX and openSuSE to succeed, but that depends on attracting and keeping the Windoze lemmings. They won't understand it when you tell them they can't do this and they can't do that on their computer under 'Linux' when they could always do it under Windoze....and they darned sure aren't going to become programmers and systems operators in order to install 'backports' of a desktop environment that does work in a manner they expect with minimal 'learning curve' problems. Zonker, as you are in some way 'management', then I beseech you, manage....make a decision, force sanity to prevail. Don't arbitrarily assume that 11.1, .2 or .n will be the 'last' requiring co-desktop options, assume that as a goal, not a barrier. IF 4.x matures to be functionally equal to 3.5x, albeit different, but functionally equal or superior, I don't think anyone will really complain if a legacy version is dropped from the install distro, but as long as 4.x is still 'pre-release' or 'beta' quality with huge gaps in functionality or stability remaining, don't paint yourself into a corner. I continue to test 4.x but USE 3.5x when I need reliability and completeness. OpenSuSE v11.0 has plenty of issues (wireless networking comes to mind) that are independent of the desktop that hopefully are being addressed and improved in 11.1 and will continue to develop in later releases. IF people are patently unable to use the improved OPERATING SYSTEMS because the desktop environment inhibits them by design or omission, they lose the value of the improvements in the OS itself. It isn't just KDE. It is a matter of choice. OpenSuSE has long offered a choice in desktops, or not desktop at all if that is the user's choice. What harm is there in offering a legacy version of KDE just like there is offered Gnome and others in parallel? Offering the legacy version until 4.x matures is almost cost-free. The argument that it interferes with 4.x development is specious. It doesn't. Just say, it is included but no development will occur on it or its' included apps. IE, it is pretty stable, use it as is and we will only address things we specifically break because of changes in the underlying OS but not developing new gizzywhatchits for it. The only other 'cost' is the small amount of space it takes on the DVD. There is no need to play Microsloth and bloat the code 'required' on the DVD with other really "important" programs like GAMES. Games, zillions of screensavers, multiple programming languages and environments are neat, but unnecessary if space is a real issue. What will attract and KEEP Windoze and other distro converts is a functional desktop with a functional operating system and a intuitive (yast2 comes to mind) way to add the other bells and whistles. They just shouldn't have to do a bunch of 'stuff' to make it do their day in and day out WORK, it just should.... If it has a cutting edge *developmental* desktop also available, well, that is icing in the cake as long as the cake is still there in case all the icing gags you. One of the KDE developers in this thread said 'bye' to several people because they said they no longer would support openSuSE if it continued to make mistakes like dropping 3.5x prematurely, one even said that we would still be on 3.2 or some earlier version. He was justifying making mistakes in the name of progress regardless of the consequences. I say, that is wrong and 2 or more wrongs does not make a right. What is right is to stop making mistakes. Zonker, help openSuSE stop making mistakes! Please! Richard Creighton CSC, Inc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

That is an interesting new claim: can you please give functionality examples to which Windows users are used to that are not available with KDE 4.1?

"Show Desktop" is not available by default in KDE4. -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 7:09 PM, Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com> wrote:

...

...

That is an interesting new claim: can you please give functionality examples to which Windows users are used to that are not available with KDE 4.1?

"Show Desktop" is not available by default in KDE4. I have spent several hours looking for this single feature... Which means, that other Windows users will spend even more, or be unable to find it at all...

-- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 31 August 2008 19:09:13 Alexey Eremenko wrote:

On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com> wrote:

...

...

That is an interesting new claim: can you please give functionality examples to which Windows users are used to that are not available with KDE 4.1?

"Show Desktop" is not available by default in KDE4.

I have spent several hours looking for this single feature...

You should have a closer look. It is available in KDE 4.1. Hint: It is plasmoid. Herbert --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2008/08/31 18:45 (GMT+0200) Stephan Binner apparently typed:

...

On Sunday 31 August 2008 16:30:37 Richard wrote:

...

...

but as long as 4.x is still 'pre-release' or 'beta' quality with huge gaps in functionality or stability remaining

...

I dispute the existance of "huge gaps". :-)

It only takes one deal breaker to make an insurmountable (aka "huge") gap. Lack of equivalent session restore is all it takes to make v4 unusable for me, compounded by a bunch of irritating nit differences. I like the old way better, and have 0 use for eye candy and things that change on mouse hover.

I guess what this all boils down to is a number of us don't like being told we're going to have to put with being crammed into a limited Vista like box! And, as much as some aren't going to like my saying that...too bad. 4.* looks like another Vista "like" interface and so far, even though it looks nice etc., CONFIGURABILITY is sorely lacking! The eye candy and mouse hover stuff most of us will live with, but if we can't configure KDE like we and OUR USERS have in 3.5, then it's worthless to us because usability then has been drastically reduced. One just can't gloss over these issues, nor try to cram everyone in the same ticky tacky box. Some of these people sound like they should be working for MickySoft. Fred -- "Security" in Windows comes from patching a sieve. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

Ease up a little, Fred. You are *not* paying these people for a product, but appealing to their good will.

If you walked into any buisness providing a free service and carried on such a tirade, you would be thrown out. Demands require cash...!

Actually, I'd be happy to pay for my openSUSE! I used to buy a dozen or so retail boxed sets of each version when they were available in stores. I didn't buy them because we needed them all, but to support SuSE. Maybe Novell should look at consumers like me as a missed marketing opportunity? There's nothing like seeing a boxed set on a shelf at Frys to make you want to lay down your money. Could SLED be sold in stores? Regards, Lew --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* openSUSE will eventually remove KDE3 and move completely to KDE4. What criteria do you have for this move? We should try to come to a firm decision and not start from scratch with every release.

The only criteria I see, is when KDE4 will have all the features, that are missing, that were in KDE3. Plus KDE4 is a usability nightmare. Changing defaults can help resolve some of those cases.

* What are *you* doing to improve the situation? Supporting two KDE versions is work - and therefore our KDE developers cannot invest as much in KDE4 as they would want to do. How do *you* want to help the KDE developers - both the openSUSE ones with packages and the upstream team?

* please give facts why you choose something

I have started a long detailed thread at opensuse-kde mailing list pointing out _real_ issues in KDE4, and opened multiple bug reports. It was mainly between me and Dirk, who is openSUSE/Novell KDE team maintainer. I would prefer not to convert this topic into a list technical & usability issues. Here is the archive: ( [opensuse-kde] KDE4 usability issues ) http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-08/ -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 31 August 2008 13:46:05 Druid wrote:

Im inclined to answer no to that question. Why? Because 11.1 will be the base for enterprise CODE11, it will be around for a long time, its for the best it has less maintainability constraints.

Well, it is the base, but that doesn't mean everything that is in 11.1 will be in SLE11. It was stated on this list that SLE11 will only have KDE4 regardless of the outcome of this discussion

KDE4 and enterprise discussion is very silly. I have yet to remember the last time I have accessed an enterprise linux server and I executed gnome, kde or etc... The closest thing that happens is to run ssh -X to install oracle, or some weird GUI. If you have problems with GUI and enterprise, you are doing it wrong, sorry to be the one to open your eyes. Enterprise couldnt care less about GUI.

There is such a thing as an enterprise desktop. SLED11. Anders --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Druid <marcio.ferreira@gmail.com> wrote:

Completely unrealistic target in here. If kde3 was adopted only when it had "all the features" maybe we would be on kde2 to kde3 transition.

Excuse me, but KDE3 was in no way shape or form the huge shift that KDE4 is. If you don't believe me, re-install a copy of SuSE 7.3 that has KDE2 and see how much different it is from KDE3. KDE3 added features that KDE2 didn't have. KDE4 has removed features that KDE3 has. KDE4 has a completely different look, feel, and structure. If the KDE team wanted to make such a huge change, then maybe they should have called it MDE or something. It's not a comtinuation of KDE. It's a whole new system.

Its time for people to stop crying and use that time to research how to get going in KDE4. If you think that's too hard, maybe you do deserve that *other* environment SUSE still offers anyway... It was made thinking exactly about you, people that have a hard time moving forward and learning stuff. Oh, this last line was mean.

The reason I came to SuSE was because it's KDE worked like OS/2's Workplace shell, which is what I had been using until I started using Linux. To me, Gnone sucks, and I avoid it. It's way too simplistic. As for researching how to get going in KDE4, WHY should I have to change the way I do things because the KDE community has decided it's time to change things? Sure, change can be good, but the kid of changes that the KDE team has forced onto their community, which supports THEM because WE use their product, is not something that should have been done the way it was. I've been a supporter of SUSE for over 9 years and have probably spent over $500 over the years on the distro. While I'm not able to help out by programming, I do my best to beta test as I have time.

Now one last line: if you didnt like my email, you better start liking it right now, right in this moment. Otherwise I will never (and I say NEVER) buy chocolate cookies again. From any vendor, not even home made. Not a single one. Ever. Maybe vanilla.

Too many times, what works for a majority is discontinued in favor of the newer, faster, better, etc. Yes, we may whine about it, but we do have the right to our opinions. I feel that KDE4 is't currently up to the high standards that SUSE has had over the years. Then again, releasing 10.1 with a broken package manager wasn't up to the standards either. I don't know when KDE4.2 is set to be released, but I'm in favor of pushing the release of 11.1 back till 6-8 weeks after 4.2 is released so that the best possible product is available. Sometimes this 6 month development cysle isn't enough. IF KDE3 is to be removed, then I say we should have a fully featured KDE4.2 to replace it with. And the eye-candy meter to let us easliy select the amount of eye-candy we want or don't want. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Reading this thread, let me ask some meta-questions: * please give facts why you choose something * openSUSE will eventually remove KDE3 and move completely to KDE4. What criteria do you have for this move? We should try to come to a firm decision and not start from scratch with every release. * What are *you* doing to improve the situation? Supporting two KDE versions is work - and therefore our KDE developers cannot invest as much in KDE4 as they would want to do. How do *you* want to help the KDE developers - both the openSUSE ones with packages and the upstream team? Always remember we're speaking about Open Source software here ;)

* And let's please try to keep the thread focused, it's too large to drift off into rant land, thanks :) I'm pretty puzzled. I understand what's at stake. Clearly: * if the KDE packagers+devs @Novell are busy with keeping KDE3, they'll have less time to improve KDE4 (fix bugs, backport, don't assume it's all bling) * KDE3 will die anyway, whether we like it or not, and keeping KDE3 for 2 years will be an even bigger burden in one year's time than it would be now (other distros won't ship it, and I would assume almost no non-Novell KDE devs will work on KDE3 maintenance in a few months' time) But I'm afraid that not having a stable KDE3 as a fallback option could have terrible consequences. And I'm not talking about experienced users with a proper internet link, those can simply add the KDE:KDE3 repository and be done with it. Everyone has different needs and expectations, but I somehow see one scenario as being really problematic without KDE3: beginners who get an 11.1 DVD, install it, choose KDE4 and find it to be way too buggy to work with. What options do they have ? - - drop Linux and go back to Windows, because Linux is too buggy to work with (no, they won't necessarily think of trying GNOME or finding out how to install KDE3 from the internet) - - drop openSUSE and switch to another distro, because openSUSE is too buggy to work with (arguably, other distros won't ship KDE3 either in their upcoming releases, but I still think it's a risk) - - switch to GNOME ? would they ? maybe (don't get me wrong, that would be fine ;)) And also for more experienced users: I tend to think that many are more religious about desktop environments (KDE/GNOME/XFCE/whatnot) than about distributions. Wouldn't many rather switch to another distro with KDE3 (if such a thing exists when 11.1 is released) rather than switching to GNOME or XFCE or ... ? Arguably, those should be able to find the KDE3 repos in the Build Service. But see the next point. One thing I don't understand though: - - you're saying that maintaining KDE3 during the lifetime of 11.1 is such a problem - - you're also saying that you don't want to drop KDE3, just move it off the media and have it in the OBS That doesn't make sense to me, because you'd still have to maintain a working KDE3 in the OBS repositories. What's the difference ? (and I'm leaving SLE completely out of the equation here) I'm currently rather in favour of keeping a KDE3 desktop as a fallback option on 11.1, hoping that KDE4 will have matured sufficiently for 11.2 to be a solid working horse by then. But well.. if KDE3 is not shipped as an installation option, it must be *very* clearly stated in the desktop chooser that KDE3 is available from add-on repositories (and maybe make it possible to add that repo during installation and grab it from there ?) I fear that only <50% of users will be aware that KDE3 is available from OBS repos. Just because _we_ know it's there doesn't mean everyone will find out. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::23+24 Feb 2008, Brussels, http://fosdem.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIv3j9r3NMWliFcXcRAlSyAJ9rZLxbyU0+QRa4fnd1YZCASNXSbQCeKq1d tRA1yO0O6mfkUAGNNlHByi4= =Fbkq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 04 September 2008 12:58:21 am Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

Reading this thread, let me ask some meta-questions: * please give facts why you choose something * openSUSE will eventually remove KDE3 and move completely to KDE4. What criteria do you have for this move? We should try to come to a firm decision and not start from scratch with every release. * What are *you* doing to improve the situation? Supporting two KDE versions is work - and therefore our KDE developers cannot invest as much in KDE4 as they would want to do. How do *you* want to help the KDE developers - both the openSUSE ones with packages and the upstream team? Always remember we're speaking about Open Source software here ;) ... But I'm afraid that not having a stable KDE3 as a fallback option could have terrible consequences. And I'm not talking about experienced users with a proper internet link,

Andreas Jaeger wrote: those can simply add the KDE:KDE3 repository and be done with it.

Everyone has different needs and expectations, but I somehow see one scenario as being really problematic without KDE3: beginners who get an 11.1 DVD, install it, choose KDE4 and find it to be way too buggy to work with. What options do they have ? .... I fear that only <50% of users will be aware that KDE3 is available from OBS repos. Just because _we_ know it's there doesn't mean everyone will find out.

cheers

How much time would require to provide KDE3 mostly as is, with very limited support for the most critical flaws, completely stopping work on functional fixes. Clearly state that KDE4 is future that is actively developed, and fully supported by openSUSE, while KDE3 is there for user convenience and has limited support. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 MH wrote:

I was directed to this mailing by a forum member (whom I thought was a principle member) as a place to post user's thoughts on KDE3/KDE4 and the future of openSUSE. I'm just a user, not a developer, and I may be out of place here but I'll put in my two cents worth and then leave:

Thanks for your feedback. Any input is welcome, which is why this thread was started in the first place :)

Personally, I agree 100% with the post at the end of the thread below. If both KDE3 and KDE4 cannot be maintained as user install options, then I would prefer to stick with KDE3 at least until KDE4.2. KDE4.1 is still not ready for prime time in my opinion. I've been testing 4.1 on a virtual machine and there are simply too many major applications missing (K3b, Kaffeine, Amarok) and still too many useability features that either don't work (icon resizing) or have yet to be implemented (panel hiding). There are still stability issues as well. I had one crash that corrupted my VM image.

I don't think that missing applications is an issue. I would believe that the plan for the "no KDE3" option would be to keep the KDE3 flavours of applications that have not been ported to KDE4 (or aren't stable enough) yet, e.g. ship the KDE3 k3b "with KDE4". That would also mean that the KDE3 runtime libraries have to be shipped with 11.1 in any case, but I would assume that this is the plan in any case.

KDE3 is very stable, fully functional, user friendly, and good looking. It wouldn't bother me to keep it as my primary desktop for at least another year.

Yeah, that's my feeling too. But I'm afraid that it isn't really giving a solution for 11.1 either. We can't simply disregard the argumentation of our KDE team, push the burden on them and then whine later if KDE4 development isn't going quickly enough (yes, I know, I'm somehow contradicting myself... playing the devil's advocate, sort of :)). But I still fail to see how having KDE3 in the OBS instead of on the media would help in any way wrt support. Sure, it would make room on the CD/DVD, but as of the maintenance of a "dead" KDE3 pulling resources away from fixing/enhancing KDE4... ? I'd have a few questions to our KDE team: - - Is there any defined upstream EOL for KDE3 maintenance at this point ? - - Would the KDE3 in the OBS repos not be maintained in any way ? Except upstream patches and new releases I guess... ? - - How would that be different from KDE3 being on the media (+ in OSS) ? - - And from above: if KDE4 is removed from the media, would a minimal KDE3 runtime environment (shlibs, kdeinit3 ?) be included nevertheless, for running KDE3 apps ? cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser <pascal.bleser@opensuse.org> /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::23+24 Feb 2008, Brussels, http://fosdem.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIwNCVr3NMWliFcXcRAigWAKCJJW7y8mKVLykoIWp9Cu3KUe6tXACgsJ5s aNFIEYrq+U6jwcv4elw7ZxI= =z9+H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Michael Loeffler wrote:

Moin, On Friday 05 September 2008, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

MH wrote:

...

I was directed to this mailing by a forum member (whom I thought was a principle member) as a place to post user's thoughts on KDE3/KDE4 and the future of openSUSE. I'm just a user, not a developer, and I may be out of place here but I'll put in my two cents worth and then leave:

Thanks for your feedback. Any input is welcome, which is why this thread was started in the first place :)

Yes, thank you all for the feedback. We've been listening thoroughly and again we've seen a discussion with many pros and cons literally on all possibilities we have.

What to do? We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media. I'm using "try" as we're facing space issues but I'm confident that we solve them in a manner acceptable for all. We probably need to reduce the KDE3 dekstop to accomplish that.

Why not put KDE4 on a separate CD as an *addition* to the DVD? The 11.1 installation process could be modified to check to see which Desktop system a user wants installed and if KDE4 is selected then KDE4 files will be installed after the rest of the main system is installed. Alternatively, since very few people use Gnome, put Gnome on the CD and have the *full* KDE3 with (crippled) KDE4 on the DVD. KDE4 is at the centre of this whole debate so *it* should be *"reduced"* and *NOT* KDE3 which is fully functional and stable. Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2008-09-05 at 20:51 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

Alternatively, since very few people use Gnome, put Gnome on the CD and

I strongly object to that. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIxFiTtTMYHG2NR9URAtUaAJ4u5/5DleDnqgkw0h6gNbB8JNqmfQCglwmw hKz/cV4oFka/dAHoZ/BHEb0= =yRhe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-09-08 at 19:10 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The Friday 2008-09-05 at 20:51 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Alternatively, since very few people use Gnome, put Gnome on the CD and

I strongly object to that.

You have the right to object as strongly as you wish just like other people have been objecting about KDE4.xx - but they aren't really being listened to.

Therefore I suggest that you put in a bugzilla report as to why you want Gnome retained, and make sure that you list out every feature of Gnome which you want retained and which is not present in KDE4.xxx.

:-) :-) :-)

GRRRR! :-) :-) Sigh... they'll keep xfce, I hope. Not that many users, but if I remember correctly the install DVD uses it, so even if nobody uses xfce, it can't be removed to save space. No, hold on, it can, there is the text mode install! >;-P - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIxP23tTMYHG2NR9URAjY7AJ0egMyPwteIazWYez9gBPise4oZPgCbBwHY 81U+46Tkd+jHHWcj5EurS0A= =QToT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-09-08 at 12:31 +0200, Peter Czanik wrote:

Hello,

Carlos E. R. írta:

...

Sigh... they'll keep xfce, I hope. Me too...

...

Not that many users, There are, those who have older and/or smaller machines. But with KDE 4.1 this will change, as it is almost as good on resources as XFCE (KDE 3.X was definitely more resource hungry, than XFCE). I use XFCE now, but will most likely return to KDE 4.1, as the 4.1.1 release is really nice and stable.

kde lighter than xfce? I can't believe that. Kde is a hog, with so many cute features.

...

but if I remember correctly the install DVD uses it, so even if nobody uses xfce, it can't be removed to save space. That uses icewm, as far as I can remember...

Ah, then change my paragraph to icewm instead of xfce :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIxRxYtTMYHG2NR9URAm9IAJ4/93WGCYYlmmweGEPdfyc70P0NAQCfVLe7 8cWWX31rq+dYo+APjZ4RUv8= =URKp -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 8:41 AM, Peter Czanik <pczanik@fang.fa.gau.hu> wrote:

Carlos E. R. írta:

...

kde lighter than xfce? I can't believe that. Kde is a hog, with so many cute features.

Not lighter, but KDE 4.x is only slightly heavier than XFCE (while 3.X was more a resource hog). I have some 128MB RAM machines, and while KDE3 started on this with heavy swapping (50+MB), KDE4 swapped only 2-3MB and XFCE not at all. So KDE 4 is definitely an improvement.

That's what I have heard, but I haven't had time to actually measure that. Of course, in my experience, KDE4 was slower. That, and the glitz. But, I am going to install it on my laptop today and see what happens. At some point, I need to try it on my Wallstreet. KDE3 was kinda slow with the G3/266, so if KDE is truly faster, than that would be the test. I've also picked up a G4/400 and a G4/533(Digital Audio) system, so once I get them up and running, I will be able to do more beta testing of the PPC stuff. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-09-08 at 13:21 +0100, Richard (MQ) wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Sigh... they'll keep xfce, I hope. Not that many users, but if I remember correctly the install DVD uses it, so even if nobody uses xfce, it can't be removed to save space. No, hold on, it can, there is the text mode install! >;-P

+1 - getting OT but xfce is perfect for low end hardware, and can run kde3 / gnome apps when necessary too. Please don't remove it as a desktop option - it's certainly used by some of us!

I was joking! Of course I don't sugest removing xfce, nor any other (there is way more in linux than kde/gnme). - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIxRuKtTMYHG2NR9URAlfrAJ9bQ6jwUpopBfh44mBzfO0s6jdAAgCfRDeq 1VgyMIADwRvTuGgjKpeLirE= =VrG/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-09-08 at 19:11 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:

On Monday 08 September 2008 07:21:19 am Richard (MQ) wrote:

...

+1 - getting OT but xfce is perfect for low end hardware, and can run kde3 / gnome apps when necessary too.

When it loads KDE or GNOME libraries that application needs it will be not so small.

True, but on small machines it usually performs better to run a low weight desktop, and then load a single heavy weight app from kde/gnome. The desktop itself with all their fancy gadgets makes the machine slow. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIxkuZtTMYHG2NR9URAoUZAJ99kO/IgTyQdpbPVZoGZgLopJu7SgCdHAE3 ROmzI789zbwmy1k0yGPdlVg= =O+Bb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 5:45 AM, Michael Loeffler <michl@novell.com> wrote:

...

What to do? We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media. I'm using "try" as we're facing space issues but I'm confident that we solve them in a manner acceptable for all. We probably need to reduce the KDE3 dekstop to accomplish that. On the space issue cthiel is our man going forward. He's travelling and will be back in the office next week and can then tell us what's to be done to get KDE3 in a usable way on the media.

Why not do 2 DVDs? One that is KDE3 centered and one that is KDE4 centered? Give the users the choice at the download time. State what the differences are:

One reason against doing 2 DVDs -- we'd double costs of production for the DVDs we hand out at shows and distribute for free, or we'd be back at square one in terms of deciding "do we do KDE 3 or KDE 4?"

As for the liveCDs, we had a community built version for 11.0. Let's get together and get one together for 11.1 that will either be HOSTED on the opensuse mirrors, or at least LINKED to the download site.

If we have a well-tested KDE3 live CD at the time of release for 11.1, this might be a good way to go. I think that Michael and the KDE team have found a reasonable and healthy compromise for the KDE transition and 11.1. We have a lot of groups to think of here -- the upstream developers who have their project represented in openSUSE, the developers who have to integrate the projects into openSUSE, and the users who have strong feelings one way or the other about which versions of software they're going to be asked to use. It's impossible to perfectly satisfy everyone involved, but I think we've reached a really good solution for 11.1. Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier openSUSE Community Manager jzb@zonker.net http://zonker.opensuse.org/ http://www.dissociatedpress.net/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 05 September 2008, Michael Loeffler wrote:

Moin, Hi,

On Friday 05 September 2008, Pascal Bleser wrote: --snip-- What to do? We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media. I'm using "try" as we're facing space issues but I'm confident that we solve them in a manner acceptable for all. We probably need to reduce the KDE3 dekstop to accomplish that. On the space issue cthiel is our man going forward. He's travelling and will be back in the office next week and can then tell us what's to be done to get KDE3 in a usable way on the media. Uups, 2 things I've forgotten to tell. We think this way we address most concerns and offering another step for thea good transition to KDE4. And stop shipping KDE3 with openSUSE 11.2. So 11.2 would come with KDE3 only. We of course support everybody who wants to offer and maintain KDE3 for longer. BTW: I just received the results of the survey we had online July/August. Concerning KDE usage it says: KDE3 38.5% KDE4 29.8% The gap to 100% is Gnome and other dekstops

M

And yes, the survey results will be published asap. I just wanna write up some comments and comparisions to the last one.

Best + have a lot of fun! Michael

...

...

Personally, I agree 100% with the post at the end of the thread below. If both KDE3 and KDE4 cannot be maintained as user install options, then I would prefer to stick with KDE3 at least until KDE4.2. KDE4.1 is still not ready for prime time in my opinion. I've been testing 4.1 on a virtual machine and there are simply too many major applications missing (K3b, Kaffeine, Amarok) and still too many useability features that either don't work (icon resizing) or have yet to be implemented (panel hiding). There are still stability issues as well. I had one crash that corrupted my VM image.

I don't think that missing applications is an issue. I would believe that the plan for the "no KDE3" option would be to keep the KDE3 flavours of applications that have not been ported to KDE4 (or aren't stable enough) yet, e.g. ship the KDE3 k3b "with KDE4". That would also mean that the KDE3 runtime libraries have to be shipped with 11.1 in any case, but I would assume that this is the plan in any case.

...

KDE3 is very stable, fully functional, user friendly, and good looking. It wouldn't bother me to keep it as my primary desktop for at least another year.

Yeah, that's my feeling too. But I'm afraid that it isn't really giving a solution for 11.1 either. We can't simply disregard the argumentation of our KDE team, push the burden on them and then whine later if KDE4 development isn't going quickly enough (yes, I know, I'm somehow contradicting myself... playing the devil's advocate, sort of :)).

But I still fail to see how having KDE3 in the OBS instead of on the media would help in any way wrt support. Sure, it would make room on the CD/DVD, but as of the maintenance of a "dead" KDE3 pulling resources away from fixing/enhancing KDE4... ?

I'd have a few questions to our KDE team:

- Is there any defined upstream EOL for KDE3 maintenance at this point ?

- Would the KDE3 in the OBS repos not be maintained in any way ? Except upstream patches and new releases I guess... ?

- How would that be different from KDE3 being on the media (+ in OSS) ?

- And from above: if KDE4 is removed from the media, would a minimal KDE3 runtime environment (shlibs, kdeinit3 ?) be included nevertheless, for running KDE3 apps ?

cheers

-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Michael Loeffler wrote: [snip]

What to do? We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media. I'm using "try" as we're facing space issues but I'm confident that we solve them in a manner acceptable for all. We probably need to reduce the KDE3 dekstop to accomplish that. On the space issue cthiel is our man going forward. He's travelling and will be back in the office next week and can then tell us what's to be done to get KDE3 in a usable way on the media. We think this way we address most concerns and offering another step for thea good transition to KDE4. BTW: I just received the results of the survey we had online July/August. Concerning KDE usage it says: KDE3 38.5% KDE4 29.8%

And yes, the survey results will be published asap. I just wanna write up some comments and comparisions to the last one.

Ok......thanks! I think all we need, ASSUMING KDE 4.2 is a FULL COMPLETE release for KDE 3.5, is to have 3.5 included with the next release of openSUSE. It can be dropped after that. Best, Fred -- Linux is an old Latin word meaning, "I don't have to support your Windows anymore." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 06 September 2008 06:48:51 am Martin Schlander wrote:

Fredag 05 september 2008 19:57:36 skrev Fred A. Miller:

...

Michael Loeffler wrote:

...

We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media.

Ok......thanks! I think all we need, ASSUMING KDE 4.2 is a FULL COMPLETE release for KDE 3.5, is to have 3.5 included with the next release of openSUSE. It can be dropped after that.

It's still unknown when 11.2 is released - it might even have KDE 4.3 - if it's released in the fall of 2009 - which I consider likely given that 2009 is SLE year which will absorb much developer time.

But I can tell you right now with 100% certainty that neither KDE 4.2 nor 4.3 will be identical with KDE 3.5. And it's still extremely vague what you guys define as "full complete", to say the least.

Full complete means "all functions that I use", which is not well defined even by very organized people. When I see "FULL, COMPLETE, FINISHED" after so many requests by KDE guys to name missing features and getting the same answer time and again, points to guys with to much time on their hands and wish to goof around with those "Linux zealots". Someone mentioned "can't hide taskbar". I used it once to check how it works, so, while I know what it is, I will not miss it a bit. On the other side, ability to size and position taskbar in any direction with all icons in it, is for me feature that was missing since ever, and now I have it. Cry for old good hide etc, seems to be just "I didn't tried to find what's new, but I don't like it".

Besides a couple of missing features and a few bugs, are only part of what people complain about regarding KDE4 - backwards compatibility of settings and simply being "different" are just as prominent complaints - and those "problems" are not exactly likely to diminish over time imho.

Differences will only grow. Once people realize that old settings were just the best approximation of graphical desktop, because computers at that time couldn't handle what they can today, requests for new type of features will multiply and number of differences will grow.

Furthermore, openSUSE 11.1 may attract hordes of these types of users from other distros, since it'll be the only major distro still shipping KDE3 on the media at that time (well, along with Debian Lenny). Therefore I think it's likely we'll still see a substantial segment of users demanding KDE3 at 11.2 time, maybe even bigger than now ;-)

So I think we should make an effort to communicate very clearly that 11.1 will be the very last release officially supporting KDE3 - and that attaching yourself deeper into a legacy desktop with no future, is probably not a very good idea for most people in the long run.

I agree. That would be a good reason to start limiting KDE3 support now, and make clear that there will be no KDE3 on 11.2 media, only in OBS for those that can't switch to KDE4 so fast. Although openSUSE is not a commercial version, by now it didn't left users in the cold, but it is time to move on. Other distributions force change because Linux can't stay with GUI developed for hardware capabilities from 2000. Presentations, or eyecandies, move from specialized applications to desktop, and if OS can't provide tools it will stay away from mainstream. Some use cases can live, even today, with a command line and everything between, but most of the users will appreciate smoother feeling of the new desktop once application developers get used to new tools and start using them more then now. Now is rush to move applications from 3 to 4, but then it will start time of GUI improvements. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Fred Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com> [09-06-08 12:12]:

For the last time, I, nor the majority are against 4.*!!! It's going to be, I hope, the best ever in time. But, it ISN'T now because (drum roll, once again) it ISN'T configurable like 3.5 nor has the features of 3.5. For 4.* to really succeed, it MUST have both.

Guess it's time for you do contribute a little to the openSUSE distribution, Fred. Instead of saying that it must have what it has, define what is missing and report it. If you cannot configure the taskbar the way you believe it shoud, file a bugzilla report and learn the *new* way or you will have provided a "bug" report to be acted upon. The way you are presently "complaining", a mild representation, NOTHING IS BEING ACCOMPLISHED but *noise* on the list and bad feelings. If you take your car to the mechanic and tell him that it doesn't drive the way it used to, what is he supposed to do. The programmers are *not* going to pull your teeth to find what features you are missing. YOU are going to have to report them or, as you have said they stated, do without! Please everyone, all the vague statements, complaints and generalities accomplish nothing but raised tempers and frustrations. We work together or fail! We have been offered, probable offer, a concession for 11.1, BUT THE HANDWRITING IS ON THE WALL. 11.2 will be kde4! Take it and run with it and MAKE IT WORK. Yes, I have been shouting, but the needless banter is frustrating and accomplishing less than nothing. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Fred Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com> [09-06-08 23:22]:

It sounds like they don't want to implement all the features of 3.5, but so far,

assumption!

no one's been honest about that,

more assumption

or not that I've read anyway. Did I miss something? When asked what features we want, the answer normally is ALL of what we have in 3.5.

KDE4 is a *new* product. What you are asking is for the developers to sit down and compare the two and duplicate everything. But everything is different and *some* things you do not want, are not usable in the new product, etc.

That's an informative answer.

It is a *generality* and is vague! Specify the *particular* features that you find missing.

It's not a "nasty" response....just being factual. We don't want to loose anything.

From the discussion here, that is not possible. KDE4 is different. Some of the things that you want may be available in a different manner, ie: "not the same". And some may not be possible.

It is *necessary* to *specify* functions that you require and do not find available. Part of the problem is quite possibly that "you do not find" the function you want. It quite well may be available, but differently. I want tomorrow to be like yesterday and you know what yesterday was like. And I want it all that way. What are you going to do when it is time for 11.2 and there is no KDE3 and no other distro offers it? Go back to os/2? That was wonderful in it's time until IBM stepped on it's d**k, but would not fit the bill today, much less so than KDE4. It's time for change and time for us to step up to the bar. Use KDE4 and gripe about what is missing, but make sure that your gripes and documented in bugzilla where they will be seen and addressed or you are just whistling in the wind. And the longer you whistle, the longer what you desire will be missing. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Felix Miata <mrmazda@ij.net> [09-07-08 03:40]:

On 2008/09/07 00:10 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan apparently typed:

No, not apparently, *did*!

Some people who have work to do have enough sense to stick with something with which they are familiar that works. I don't need to "go back to OS/2", because I never left it. OS/2 still isn't dead, though it does have a "new" distributor (Serenity Systems/Mensys) and name (eComStation). It doesn't insist I have less than 15 legacy partitions per SATA HD, and still can do everything its previous version could do (in this case 10-15 years ago), unlike KDE4.

And you still start your automobile with a crank? :^)

Just in case you don't have Mutt configured to show the sender's UA, and those whose mail app can't be so configured, mine is: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; U; Warp 4.5; en-US; rv:1.8.1.16) Gecko/20080715 SeaMonkey/1.1.11 (PmW)

Organization: less than infinite User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; U; Warp 4.5; en-US; rv:1.8.1.16) Gecko/20080715 SeaMonkey/1.1.11 (PmW)

...

killall kicker

...

do your work

...

<alt><f2>"kicker"

...

that was hard!

For you. I'm working in a stable and mature GUI

mature != ancient

and expect to to do such things with a mouse click or two without giving anything much thought, and probably won't remember anything about Alt-F2 if

maybe the developers will decide that Alt-F2 should be dropped and you won't have to worry about that functionality being missing from KDE4 since you wouldn't remember it anyway.

and when KDE4 gets shoved down my throat without working panel collapse.

then add two scripts with meaningful names, one killing the kicker and one starting the kicker to your system and link them to two icons in a prominent location on your desktop so that you will not forget where they are and what they do and try really hard to remember how to pointy-clicky on them with your rodent. That satisfies the requirements you have stated, provided you have the capacity to "remember" them. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/09/07 09:12 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan composed:

Felix Miata composed:

...

On 2008/09/07 00:10 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan apparently typed:

No, not apparently, *did*!

Until your above statement, not likely anyone on this list _knew_ you compose your email by typing. Not everyone is physically capable of composing email using fingers.

And you still start your automobile with a crank? :^)

No, but it has a manual transmission, which permits push/pull starting in the event of failure of the conventional starting system, getting home without waiting or paying for a tow, and does not produce bonus global warming slipping by design. Newer != better!

mature != ancient

Ancient != irrelevant. Ancient != obsolete. Ancient != useless.

then add two scripts with meaningful names, one killing the kicker and one starting the kicker to your system and link them to two icons in a prominent location on your desktop so that you will not forget where they are and what they do and try really hard to remember how to pointy-clicky on them with your rodent.

Without Kicker, there is no "prominent location" on my Linux desktops. Rarely is more than a tiny bit of desktop ever visible here, and I wouldn't normally think to start any app by locating some desktop object under a bunch of open app windows. The job of the desktop on my systems is to determine how much space is available for open applications, and provide a convenient location for a tool for opening new ones and switching among open ones. At least on OS/2, objects on the desktop are automatically shadowed to WarpCentre, so that they can be reached just as easily as objects formally installed in its main app menu system. Note too the above plural. I expect all my many Linux desktops to be equivalent without heroic workarounds for missing features in "new & improved" replacements for things that used to just work.

That satisfies the requirements you have stated, provided you have the capacity to "remember" them.

If you read a bit further back, and think, you should see my requirement is really the KDE3 status quo, not some kludge workaround for an absent KDE4/beta-ware function. The KDE3 Kicker hiding button works well, and thus needs neither improvement nor replacement. -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun September 7 2008 12:10:54 am Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

or not that I've read anyway. Did I miss something? When asked what features we want, the answer normally is ALL of what we have in 3.5.

KDE4 is a *new* product. What you are asking is for the developers to sit down and compare the two and duplicate everything. But everything is different and *some* things you do not want, are not usable in the new product, etc.

Patrick, for the first time I actually understand and agree with you entirely. KDE 4.x *IS* a new product, and it is NOT KDE. When Mozilla radically changed its' browser, they didn't call it Netscape 99 or even Mozilla vN.x, they called it Firefox. When KDE developers completely create a new product, that's great and is progress and even desireable, but it certainly is NOT Version 4.x of KDE 3.5.x which was pretty much a culmination of a progression of related improvements to a basic, functional and still very useful product. This 'new' product is simply mis-named. It is not KDE v4.x, it is v0.x of a 'new' product and should have been advertised as such and when v1.0 of this as yet unnamed 'new' product is released, people may accept it as willingly as many now accept Firefox vs Netscape. Shoot, Firefox runs on Windoze, maybe this 'new' desktop can replace Vista on that platform....but I digress. In the meantime, in the same spirit as continuing to provide Gnome and other desktops, continue to provide KDE, the real one, even if development is no longer enthusiastically provided by the KDE developers. When the 'new' product, whatever it is called, (LDE for example eg, Linux Desktop Environment)) matures with all its' new vector graphics and infinately scalable icons, and hopefully functional replacements for the KDE functions, people will demand that KDE stop being distributed and taking up space on the distro media in preference to LDE which is so much preferred because it does everything KDE could do and it is prettier too. But stop calling it KDE, it isn't, it is a 'new' product and you said it first and I rarely argue with the moderator of a forum :) Richard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 September 2008 05:21:13 Fred A. Miller wrote:

Supposedly, the inability to hide the task bar will be taken care of... ....it's not yet.

It is implemented in KDE trunk, it has not been in a release yet though.

...

The programmers are *not* going to pull your teeth to find what features you are missing. YOU are going to have to report them or, as you have Give me a break Patrick. As someone else pointed out, they above all devs. know what the features are in 3.5.....we need them all, as has been stated

Nobody needs them all! But many people complained about KDE 3.5 UI bloat.

It sounds like they don't want to implement all the features of 3.5, but so far, no one's been honest about that, or not that I've read anyway.

As you obviously do not know, one of the goals of KDE4 is to clean up at least some of the bloat/confusing dialogs/features that are used by nobody/minority. The most visible 'cut' is of course visible in the parts that have been com- pletely rewritten from ground for KDE4, read desktop shell/Plasma (Plasma 4.0 and 4.1 did not include some features not because developers did not consider them essential but because of missing time/resource.) But it's not the goal to let over time KDE4/Plasma grow to same KDE 3.5 functionality including stuff for every loud minority of users. So KDE4 will be never "same as KDE 3.5" and it supposed to be better/different so "same config" argument is also invalid.

Did I miss something? When asked what features we want, the answer normally is ALL of what we have in 3.5. That's an informative answer. It's not a

That's no helpful answer: it doesn't help developers to decide what functiona- lity is really required and if considered essential to priotize implemntation. Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 September 2008 06:46:54 am peter nikolic wrote:

...

That's no helpful answer: it doesn't help developers to decide what functiona- lity is really required and if considered essential to priotize implemntation.

Thats very easy to state   everything  KDE 3.5.x has plus some no minus lines at all  how many times does this have to be stated

After reading whole mail that you respond to (did you) where is explained that one of KDE4 goals is to reduce bloat, like few different ways to do almost anything, some exotic functions that are developed just to kill boredom, or were useful in some conditions that doesn't exist anymore, or are used by few people in a whole world, you repeat blanket request that someone else has to fill in. Peter, take a time and do you share of development process as user, give a feeback that is asked for, name or describe features that you need, tell what feature doesn't work as you expect and why. Don't refere to someone else, or everyone, you are not mind reader, nor you are asked to be advocate for others. Everyone has right and opportunity to reperesent himself. If you have not time to do so, be nice and wait for results without blanket comments as above. It is explained time and again that such comments are useless. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 08 September 2008 12:59:48 Benji Weber wrote: Ok. I'm trying to collate some of these laundry lists.

* Plasma stability.

It seems to me that if a single plasmoid crashes then it takes all of plasma with it. I can't work out how to get usable backtraces from plasma to file bugs for these. I've tried installing all the -debuginfo packages I could find but still have no symbols found in backtraces, and I can't be bothered to install from source at the moment.

Yes, plasma is all in one process at the moment. However it should be debuggable like any other process. kdebase4-workspace-debuginfo, kdebase4- runtime-debuginfo, kdelibs4-debuginfo and libqt4-debuginfo should be all you need to debug it.

* Plasma doesn't play nicely with twinview/xinerama

Bug#: https://bugzilla.novell.com/413268

That's something we can fix

* Configurable global keyboard shortcuts don't appear to work yet in 4.1.

Bug#: https://bugs.kde.org/160892 https://bugs.kde.org/165441

Ditto, should get some attention once we move from features work to bugfixing (as of next week).

* Windows-Cover-Panel missing feature. (Fixed for 4.2).

Bug#: Can't find it. [Please let me know]

This one is done in trunk, there is UI for it, so we will backport it.

* Performance with nvidia's proprietary driver.

AFAIK nvidia are continuing to optimise for the xrender operations used by plasma. I've seen big improvements with 177.67 with the GlyphCache etc tweaks, and hope that a final driver will be out when 11.1 ships. Other than that there is not a lot we can do.

System Specs: Q6600, 8800GTS, 8gb ram

You know that your system is many times faster than KDE needs, it's purely a driver bug. KDE now has very good contacts to nvidia, they are aware of the problems and are fixing them. Will

Stephan Binner wrote:

On Sunday 07 September 2008 05:21:13 Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

Supposedly, the inability to hide the task bar will be taken care of... ....it's not yet.

It is implemented in KDE trunk, it has not been in a release yet though.

Excellent! 1 down.............

...

...

The programmers are *not* going to pull your teeth to find what features you are missing. YOU are going to have to report them or, as you have Give me a break Patrick. As someone else pointed out, they above all devs. know what the features are in 3.5.....we need them all, as has been stated

Nobody needs them all! But many people complained about KDE 3.5 UI bloat.

...

It sounds like they don't want to implement all the features of 3.5, but so far, no one's been honest about that, or not that I've read anyway.

As you obviously do not know, one of the goals of KDE4 is to clean up at least some of the bloat/confusing dialogs/features that are used by nobody/minority.

Well, you see a LOT of users say that 4.* is slower than 3.5, so there you have a "sales" problem.

The most visible 'cut' is of course visible in the parts that have been com- pletely rewritten from ground for KDE4, read desktop shell/Plasma (Plasma 4.0 and 4.1 did not include some features not because developers did not consider them essential but because of missing time/resource.) But it's not the goal to let over time KDE4/Plasma grow to same KDE 3.5 functionality including stuff for every loud minority of users. So KDE4 will be never "same as KDE 3.5" and it supposed to be better/different so "same config" argument is also invalid.

Things like quickly setting the size of all icons on the desktop IS important and missing in 4.*. From what I've read, it's not going to be available in 4.* either. I don't want to have to set the size of each icon. Now, my desktops are setup correctly....there's very few icons, but I have clients who don't listen and load their desktops up. :(

...

Did I miss something? When asked what features we want, the answer normally is ALL of what we have in 3.5. That's an informative answer. It's not a

That's no helpful answer: it doesn't help developers to decide what functiona- lity is really required and if considered essential to priotize implemntation.

Well, I guess I'm not going to be any help then. Right now, I don't have time to setup 4.1 on any of my hardware to check what's in 4.1 and what isn't and what's important. Sorry about that...but right now, I'm going "full tilt" most of the time. I can hope hope that those like Patrick, who are retired (no Patrick, I didn't say "retarded"), will have the time to do all that. Next year, I'm going to semi-retire (unless NOBama gets elected and then I won't be able to afford to) and do some of the things I haven't been able to do in a long time. 'Haven't even gone fishing in over 5 yrs!! I've paid my dues many times over, testing software. I simply can't do it now. Fred -- "Security" in Windows comes from patching a sieve. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

This discussion has had an amazing about noise in it in my view. However, lately it has taken on a bit more focus. What I would like to see is a specific track of all features that people think need to be implemented in 4.* for them to switch. Maybe even a justification as to why then need that feature. Then perhaps certain developers can tell us what is not going to happen ever and why along with what is currently underway. Facts!!!!!! Specifics and a lot less emotion, and words would help to bring focus as I see it and maybe help educate people along the way. To many people seem to be impressed by their own rants which might be more effective if done before a mirror ;-) Cheers, Bob --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Fred Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com> [09-06-08 12:12]:

...

For the last time, I, nor the majority are against 4.*!!! It's going to be, I hope, the best ever in time. But, it ISN'T now because (drum roll, once again) it ISN'T configurable like 3.5 nor has the features of 3.5. For 4.* to really succeed, it MUST have both.

Guess it's time for you do contribute a little to the openSUSE distribution, Fred. Instead of saying that it must have what it has, define what is missing and report it.

Jesus Christ! How many times must one state that what is required from 4.xxxxxxx is what is *already*, *now*, available in 3.xxx as far as features, and functionality, goes?! Some developer wants to add eye-candy to the whole sheebang and produce the same results in a different way - that's fine, OK, acceptable. Go for it! But don't shove KDE4.xxx onto people if it doesn't *at least* have the same functionality as the current KDE3.x. *Nobody* asked for KDE3 to be re-written from scratch to produce KDE4. *Nobody*. The people who wanted to do so were the 'Developers'. Fine. So, let them go ahead and develop KDE4 --- but *don't* shove it in as a working Desktop into a distribution until it *is* at least as good as what KDE3 is! *Everybody* and his dog knows what KDE3.xxx does so what is this nonsense about people having to submit "bug reports" about what is 'missing' in 4.xxx? (But nobody is listening to similar comments from users, are they? Somehow KDE4 is being shoved forward irrespective of what so that it easier for people to generate comments stating that 'Linux' is a lot of crap when compared to what MS produces. Right? Wrong?) Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 06 September 2008 11:10:38 am Fred A. Miller wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Saturday 06 September 2008 06:48:51 am Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Fredag 05 september 2008 19:57:36 skrev Fred A. Miller:

...

Michael Loeffler wrote:

...

We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media.

Ok......thanks! I think all we need, ASSUMING KDE 4.2 is a FULL COMPLETE release for KDE 3.5, is to have 3.5 included with the next release of openSUSE. It can be dropped after that.

It's still unknown when 11.2 is released - it might even have KDE 4.3 - if it's released in the fall of 2009 - which I consider likely given that 2009 is SLE year which will absorb much developer time.

But I can tell you right now with 100% certainty that neither KDE 4.2 nor 4.3 will be identical with KDE 3.5. And it's still extremely vague what you guys define as "full complete", to say the least.

Full complete means "all functions that I use", which is not well defined even by very organized people.

What is so difficult about knowing what is current in 3.5?

If it is easy to list, I would assume that you will do that long time ago instead of repeating ALL, SAME etc, blanket listings that someone else has to fill with actual feature names. If I would be so passionate defender of good old KDE{1,2,3} I would long time ago have a list.

Simply have the SAME configurations available in 4.*.

Icon size settings came in mind as first candidate to remove first, but it is ported. With desktop that can show SVG (vector) graphic it is useless. How many more KDE3 options is useless too? That is why guys that want to create new desktop, without ballast of features (and settings) that were seldom used, asking time and again what is missing.

...

When I see "FULL, COMPLETE, FINISHED" after so many requests by KDE guys to name missing features and getting the same answer time and again, points to guys with to much time on their hands and wish to goof around with those "Linux zealots".

You don't live in the real world like some of us do.

It seems quite opposite. For instance, see below: ---- Start here ------------------------------------------------

...

Someone mentioned "can't hide taskbar". I used it once to check how it works, so, while I know what it is, I will not miss it a bit.

You sound like a "Softie," Rajko! Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it isn't need by others! On a letter box type monitor, it's not as big a deal, but on a wide screen, most seen with laptops, you can recover some realestate that is desired by a LOT of users. It's one of the reasons that I removed 4.* from ALL clients that I had put it on...the complaints were 100% for ALL laptop users!

...

On the other side, ability to size and position taskbar in any direction with all icons in it, is for me feature that was missing since ever, and now I have it. Cry for old good hide etc, seems to be just "I didn't tried to find what's new, but I don't like it".

It's a good feature for some people...I don't need it, but that doesn't mean someone else doesn't. ---- End here ------------------------------------------------

What you see? I can tell you what I see, a guy that is so focused on current soultion that can't see feature that will improve overall experience of his users, and it is not so original solution, as Vista has right side of the wide screens occupied with something that resembles on taskbar. Move (mumble) taskbar on side, instead to learn users to hide/unhide it all the time. See for instance this: http://en.opensuse.org/Image:KDE4-4.1-oxygen-sample-custom.jpeg Whole height is yours, and no hiding/showing.

...

...

Besides a couple of missing features and a few bugs, are only part of what people complain about regarding KDE4 - backwards compatibility of settings and simply being "different" are just as prominent complaints - and those "problems" are not exactly likely to diminish over time imho.

Differences will only grow. Once people realize that old settings were just the best approximation of graphical desktop, because computers at that time couldn't handle what they can today, requests for new type of features will multiply and number of differences will grow.

Oh really? The "old features" and "old configurabiltiy" don't have squat to do with new hardware or graphic desktop. It has EVERYTHING to do with have a desktop setup to work the way a USER wants it to....NOT a developer.

The GUI in KDE4 has new capabilities, and it can work fine in a new way without old features. Why should one port "all" when in lesser then year no one will ask for many them. For instance, new icons can be SVG graphic. Resizable at will, so what good will bring module to set sizes. It is already ported, but once users get used that icons can be any size they want, on case by case basis, allowing them to sort desktop in a new way, it will be just a piece of bloat. See Thunderbird icon on above image. It is fixed size image, not vector graphic. It fits fine in old concepts, but it is not the best in a new one. And so on. Even more important, is that what users want is important to developers because they are nice guys, but they have no obligation to the users. It is just the opposite. They gave us their work for free. We owe them. What would you say if you give money to somebody and instead of thank you, hear that you are stingy, banknote was old, and whatnot. ...

...

I agree. That would be a good reason to start limiting KDE3 support now, and make clear that there will be no KDE3 on 11.2 media, only in OBS for those that can't switch to KDE4 so fast. ...

No, that isn't a good idea....limited in 11.1. You only "move on" when you can take everyone else with you, unless you're anxious to reduce market share.

What market share? Others are closing doors big time. With openSUSE KDE3 users have at least Build Service as an option to be at newest stand, with others there will be no options, but to stay with old release. Other are not afraid to loose market share, why should be openSUSE worried when it is offering more.

...

Other distributions force change because Linux can't stay with GUI developed for hardware capabilities from 2000. Presentations, or eyecandies, move from specialized applications to desktop, and if OS can't provide tools it will stay away from mainstream. Some use cases can live, even today, with a command line and everything between, but most of the users will appreciate smoother feeling of the new desktop once application developers get used to new tools and start using them more then now. Now is rush to move applications from 3 to 4, but then it will start time of GUI improvements.

For the last time, I, nor the majority are against 4.*!!! It's going to be, I hope, the best ever in time. But, it ISN'T now because (drum roll, once again) it ISN'T configurable like 3.5 nor has the features of 3.5. For 4.* to really succeed, it MUST have both.

Fred, you want to wait until it has "all" the features and configuration. How it will happen? When KDE labs find right features that fit new layout and capabilities, than develop and test all software. :-) Good idea, but it is FOSS, lab is our skin. I'm not delighted with some KDE4 perks, but I'm trying to help transition and be over with it. Procrastinating visit to dentist will not remove a pain. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Felix Miata <mrmazda@ij.net> [09-06-08 13:39]:

I can't work without hide taskbar. When I need a fullscreen screenshot of a web browser and its content, as I often do (e.g. https://qa.mandriva.com/attachment.cgi?id=10781 ), there has to be a way for me to get rid of the kicker that doesn't involve logging out or rebooting first.

killall kicker do your work <alt><f2>"kicker" that was hard! -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun September 7 2008 3:18:14 am Felix Miata wrote:

On 2008/09/06 21:34 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan apparently typed:

...

* Felix Miata <mrmazda@ij.net> [09-06-08 13:39]:

...

...

I can't work without hide taskbar. When I need a fullscreen screenshot of a web browser and its content, as I often do (e.g. https://qa.mandriva.com/attachment.cgi?id=10781 ), there has to be a way for me to get rid of the kicker that doesn't involve logging out or rebooting first.

...

killall kicker

...

do your work

...

<alt><f2>"kicker"

...

that was hard!

For you. I'm working in a stable and mature GUI and expect to to do such things with a mouse click or two without giving anything much thought, and probably won't remember anything about Alt-F2 if and when KDE4 gets shoved down my throat without working panel collapse.

Do you have a workaround for https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152761 too? Until (most) things like these are fixed, KDE4 is nothing more than beta-ware. I expect beta-ware in Factory, not a purchased DVD distro release.

Don't hold your breath...   This is a direct quote from one of the KDE developers taken directly from their buglist regarding that very bug and to me is indicative of the whole attitude about providing the functionality we lose in 4.x in order to gain all the new wonderous vector graphics resizeable icons we all need instead of an ability to do useful work that we used to have..... Quote:

Robert Knight 2008-08-26 12:36:39

...

How much are we talking about here to fix this thing? In truth, not a lot of work to get KDE 3.5.x functionality back again. I did plan to do this for KDE 4.1 but it didn't happen because I was originally hoping to introduce improved restore of sessions since I always considered that just restoring the program and path was almost useless. Evidently a lot of users don't feel the same way. But please don't wait for it to happen. The Konsole code is fairly clean and this would be a good job for a new developer. If you haven't worked on KDE code before and you'd like to make a contribution then please get in touch. Seasoned developers are also welcome to apply.

EndQuote. In one breath he says it isn't a lot of work to get the FUNCTIONALITY back again, and in the next, he says DON'T WAIT.   Our esteemed moderator said IBM shot itself in it's d**k regarding OS/2.   That is probably true.   They did it when they teamed up with M$.   Now, it appears that KDE is shooting itself in the same appendage and expecting US to tell us where it hurts! Richard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 9/6/08, Rajko M. <rmatov101@charter.net> wrote:

Once people realize that old settings were just the best approximation of graphical desktop, because computers at that time couldn't handle what they can today, requests for new type of features will multiply and number of differences will grow.

So, what, now we have to have a brand new computer to be able to use KDE4? My older P3 based laptops that have "ancient" and "old" video chipsets should no longer be supported because of these new features that users seems to have been "demanding"? If that's the case, then maybe we should just change the minimum requirements to a 2Ghz or faster machine and no graphics card less than 2 years old? As for resizing the taskbar, you could do that in KDE3. The first tab of the panel options allows that. Granted, it's not as "easy" as dragging it, but it was there. So, that MAY be a useful improvement for some people.

Other distributions force change because Linux can't stay with GUI developed for hardware capabilities from 2000. Presentations, or eyecandies, move from specialized applications to desktop, and if OS can't provide tools it will stay away from mainstream. Some use cases can live, even today, with a command line and everything between, but most of the users will appreciate smoother feeling of the new desktop once application developers get used to new tools and start using them more then now. Now is rush to move applications from 3 to 4, but then it will start time of GUI improvements.

Eye candy isn't the end all and be-all. Remember, 80% of users only use 20% of the features. Way too much effort is wasted to try to please that other 20% tho. I could care less about wobbly windows, and rotating desktops, and all that other bling. I care about having a stable desktop, Firefox for web apps, KOffice for productivity, MPlayer for video, and a usable File Manager like Konqueror and Midnight Commander. If I wanted glitz and bling, I would use OS X on my Macs. But I use Linux. SuSE used to have the seperate professional version. Maybe we need to go back to that. Have a user oriented versions with all the bling and have a power user version for those who are just interested in getting their work done. As for pointing out various faults with KDE4, since I have only used it a couple of times, I can't really say too much other than it was too much bling, slower than KDE3, and had all kinds of irriatating effects. I even turn off the bouncing cursor that is the default on KDE3. Even the color schemes on apps like Kmaghong and KPatience suck. KDE3 provided us a clean, balanced desktop with lots of configs so that it could be adjusted for every taste. KDE4 seems to be a lot of bling and if it needs a brand new Nvidia 8800GT or ATI Radeon 4850, then it's not for me. Again, these are my views and my opinions. I don't expect everyone to agree. That's what these discussions are for - to help the devs found out where the balance is. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I'm a long time user of KDE--ever since the 2.x release. I'm also a long time user of SuSE before they became SUSE and openSUSE. I've also used a wide variety of other distros, but most of them only briefly. I started with RH 6.x and stayed with them until 8.x. When they stopped supporting KDE, I left. I've NEVER liked GNOME. And though it's not near as ugly as it used to be, I still find it confining. What I like about KDE most is it's configurability and it's stability. I've played around with KDE4.0 (which was early beta at best IMO) and 4.1 (still beta). These are the things I don't like about it: Unable to hide the panel (I've loved this feature since it was first implemented in Windows. Reduces clutter, increases screen area); Unable to locate "launcher" icons on the panel where they will stay; "Launcher" icons radomly change location on the panel even at "default" locations; Unable to resize icons; Unable to keep icons in designated areas of the desktop without constantly locking and unlocking them (with 3.x you could "align to grid" and be done with it); Unable to assign different backgrounds to virtual desktops to make them easy to identify; Lack of stability. KDE4.1 has crashed on me repeatedly; Lack of key native applications. Yes, the 3.x series variants can be installed and run, but not without a great deal of extra libraries and assorted cruft (isn't removing cruft and "bloat" one of the design goals of the 4.x series?) Maybe it's possible to do some of the things I've listed above, but I couldn't manage after several hours of experimentation. In any case, I will not move to KDE4.x until the above items are fixed/implemented, or made as easy to use as they are in the 3.x series. If the 3.x series is dropped without addressing the above issues in 4.x (11.1), I will stay with 11.0 until another distro offers a better option. As a user I just don't see any advance in the 4.x series at all (at this point) other than a slightly more consistent look. PS--in reference to usefulness of Compiz, maybe--if I could ever get it enabled. I did manage once under 10.3 but it wasn't stable. Have yet to figure out how to run it under 11.0. None of the instructions I've seen have worked. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 September 2008 16:39:55 MH wrote:

I've played around with KDE4.0 (which was early beta at best IMO) and 4.1 (still beta). These are the things I don't like about it:

Ok, I'm collecting wishlists again.

Unable to hide the panel (I've loved this feature since it was first implemented in Windows. Reduces clutter, increases screen area);

Implemented in trunk and planned to be backported. The trunk implementation only has auto-hide, did you use the manual hide buttons?

Unable to locate "launcher" icons on the panel where they will stay;

"Launcher" icons radomly change location on the panel even at "default" locations;

This must be a bug. Is it reported?

Unable to resize icons;

On the panel? Historical note: their size used to be configurable until about KDE 3.1, then they were changed to automatically take the largest size that fits on the configured panel height. Folder View takes its icon size from the configured (in System Settings) Desktop/File Manager icon size.

Unable to keep icons in designated areas of the desktop without constantly locking and unlocking them (with 3.x you could "align to grid" and be done with it);

Folder View aligns pretty well to grid by default. Have you tried this?

Unable to assign different backgrounds to virtual desktops to make them easy to identify;

Go vote on https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=155150 . Currently KDE 4.2 is a way off feature freeze, so there is still time to get things like this re- added.

Lack of stability. KDE4.1 has crashed on me repeatedly;

Our packages aren't just 'released' 4.1.1, we are constantly updating them with fixes that go into the branch. So report specific bugs and we'll get the stability up.

Lack of key native applications. Yes, the 3.x series variants can be installed and run, but not without a great deal of extra libraries and assorted cruft (isn't removing cruft and "bloat" one of the design goals of the 4.x series?)

Most of these are being ported. It's true that a number will still be present as KDE 3 apps only for 11.1 - digikam (maybe), konversation, koffice. You're absolutely right about streamlining being a KDE 4 goal, but the sheer number of KDE apps has made it impossible to port everything immediately. I don't give much weight to the 'extra libraries' argument on a general purpose desktop or laptop though. On a SSD-based netbook, sure. However disk space and ram being what they are, the extra cruft (a few tens of Mb) involved in installing KDE 3 and KDE 4 in parallel is no great increase over the bloat we all have from having OpenOffice, Mozilla, Eclipse and maybe a couple of g* apps installed. Will

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 9:36 AM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:

Implemented in trunk and planned to be backported. The trunk implementation only has auto-hide, did you use the manual hide buttons?

I do. They don't get used that often, but there are occasions where I need them, so I set them up. Depends on the screen size. This laptop does 1600x1200, so it's not a big deal, but my X21 uses 1024x768, and it's nice to have that.

Most of these are being ported. It's true that a number will still be present as KDE 3 apps only for 11.1 - digikam (maybe), konversation, koffice. You're absolutely right about streamlining being a KDE 4 goal, but the sheer number of KDE apps has made it impossible to port everything immediately.

I'd like to see KDE3 apps selected for KDE3 instead of having to deselect them and manually add the KDE3 apps. That's irriatating.

I don't give much weight to the 'extra libraries' argument on a general purpose desktop or laptop though. On a SSD-based netbook, sure. However disk space and ram being what they are, the extra cruft (a few tens of Mb) involved in installing KDE 3 and KDE 4 in parallel is no great increase over the bloat we all have from having OpenOffice, Mozilla, Eclipse and maybe a couple of g* apps installed.

Sorry, but that's the wrong attitude to take. Take this Thinkpad for example. It has a bad RAM slot, so I'm limited to 256MB. Now, it runs fine under KDE3, so I'm not worried about. But just saying that RAM is cheap doesn't mean some systems are easily upgradable. Some of my machines, like my Thinkpad X21 only have a max of 384MB, while others, like my Precision 610 Dual Xeon 500Mhz, can take 2GB. Any idea why your text is so large in your messages? It's about 3 times the size of the rest of them..... Thanx --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Tuesday, September 09, 2008 at 10:16:19, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2008/09/09 10:08 (GMT-0400) Larry Stotler composed:

...

Any idea why your text is so large in your messages? It's about 3 times the size of the rest of them.....

I'm surprised the list admins don't reject messages submitted in bloat format (HTML).

He does. Bille just found a way around it (only possible for @suse.de senders). Have to think about it. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 09 September 2008 16:23:27 Henne Vogelsang wrote:

He does. Bille just found a way around it (only possible for @suse.de senders). Have to think about it.

It's because I'm a sneaky Brit ;). I float my mails across the north sea and under the Dane's listserver barrages in mini-submarines. Seriously, should the list reject only-html mail or any-html mail? This KMail appears to have started sending multipart-alternative containing text/plain and text/html. Will --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 10 September 2008 11:20:29 Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

This KMail appears to have started sending multipart-alternative containing text/plain and text/html.

Multipart is even more evil then pure HTML :)

Sorted, I had the Formatting option checked in the composer's Options menu. Will --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:

Ok, I had a feeling that might be the case. The current [auto]hide in 4.2 does not provide those buttons yet, so I'll ask upstream about them.

While probably not a deal breaker, I have found it useful. Of course, when using Firefox, you can just hit F11 to full screen that as well.....and Firefox is probably the most often used app I run.

Do you mean in the software selections? If KDE3 apps are missing from the KDE3 desktop pattern, that's a bug, please let us know about it.

When you install KDE3 from the DVD, the KDE4 apps like the games and stuff are selected instead of the KDE3 ones. No idea if that was a bug or intentional. Just pop the DVD in and start and install and do a detailed selection with KDE3 as the desktop choice and you'll see what I mean....

Sure, it's not an issue, but I tried to point out that my attitude relates to mainstream hardware. There

True, most mainstream hardware had better expandability. However, now that XP is about useless with less than 512MB and VIsta with less than 2GB, I would hope that the focus is on improving the memory usage as has been claimed by the KDE team, but which I'm not sure is really the case. Code bloat is unfortunately very common everywhere now. Oh well. I'll hold onto my old hardware kicking and screaming as long as it still boots(I've been running a Thinkpad 380XD/P-233MMX/96MB as a router for the last few days with SuSE 8.1. Also have a Compaq LTE 5000 that was at my son's mother's house until recently. It's a P75/8MB running 95. Just lucked into a 32MB upgrade recently, and now that it has a whopping 40MB RAM, I may try to run damn small linux on it.....I know, I'm a glutton for punishment. Of course, I do now have a copy of OS/2 v4.52.....Hmmmmm, decisions, decisions.....)

Oooh, seems that KMail SVN is now always sending multipart-alternative HTML and plain text - another thing to look into. If you disable "Prefer HTML to plain text" (Folder menu) it will take the ascii.

No problem. It looks like it's been fixed with you other messages. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-09-09 at 17:17 +0200, nordi wrote:

Only manual hide. A constantly visible taskbar is useful if you are jumping between apps a lot (web, mail, OpenOffice...) but it is annoying if you spend a lot of time in one program. So I switch visibility manually, depending on what I am currently doing.

I jump using the keyboard, taskbar hidden. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIxpchtTMYHG2NR9URAtqfAJ4ncvMrLmqzthdMkb0kHHeIDibKiACbB/qO U6JP31iDO6U8PrBdXO7ziVE= =Ba1v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 09 September 2008 04:36:21 pm Will Stephenson wrote:

On Sunday 07 September 2008 16:39:55 MH wrote:

...

I've played around with KDE4.0 (which was early beta at best IMO) and 4.1 (still beta). These are the things I don't like about it:

Ok, I'm collecting wishlists again.

...

Unable to hide the panel (I've loved this feature since it was first implemented in Windows. Reduces clutter, increases screen area);

Implemented in trunk and planned to be backported. The trunk implementation only has auto-hide, did you use the manual hide buttons?

No. Only used auto-hide. I always removed the manual hide buttons as they were just more clutter.

...

Unable to locate "launcher" icons on the panel where they will stay;

"Launcher" icons radomly change location on the panel even at "default" locations;

This must be a bug. Is it reported?

Not sure. To be honest, I kind of gave up on bug reporting because I found the interface difficult to use (not to mention having to maintain separate logins). Maybe it's improved. In any case, I once reported a bug regarding the "nv" driver and the problem remains nearly 2 years later. So for me personally, I couldn't see much point.

...

Unable to resize icons;

On the panel? Historical note: their size used to be configurable until

about

KDE 3.1, then they were changed to automatically take the largest size that fits on the configured panel height.

I was referring to the desktop icons (widgets?). The "resize" option does nothing. I was not able to find a more general option anywhere in desktop configuration/appearance.

Folder View takes its icon size from the configured (in System Settings) Desktop/File Manager icon size.

I still don't even understand what "folder view" is or what it's supposed to accomplish. How is that any different from a short-cut to a folder? Or sized file manager view?

...

Unable to keep icons in designated areas of the desktop without constantly locking and unlocking them (with 3.x you could "align to grid" and be done with it);

Folder View aligns pretty well to grid by default. Have you tried this?

See above. As far as I can tell, folder view has nothing to do with desktop icons used for launching apps.

...

Unable to assign different backgrounds to virtual desktops to make them easy to identify;

Go vote on https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=155150 . Currently KDE 4.2

is

a way off feature freeze, so there is still time to get things like this re- added.

OK. Thanks for the link. Save me having to hunt it down.

...

Lack of stability. KDE4.1 has crashed on me repeatedly;

Our packages aren't just 'released' 4.1.1, we are constantly updating them with fixes that go into the branch. So report specific bugs and we'll get

the

stability up.

That's why I'm waiting. Things like moving desktop icons around shouldn't take the system down.

...

Lack of key native applications. Yes, the 3.x series variants can be installed and run, but not without a great deal of extra libraries and assorted cruft (isn't removing cruft and "bloat" one of the design goals

...

the 4.x series?)

Most of these are being ported. It's true that a number will still be

of present

as KDE 3 apps only for 11.1 - digikam (maybe), konversation, koffice. You're absolutely right about streamlining being a KDE 4 goal, but the sheer number of KDE apps has made it impossible to port everything immediately.

I understand that. I have no problem with that, as long as it's a goal that is actively being pursued. Like I said above, I can wait.

I don't give much weight to the 'extra libraries' argument on a general purpose desktop or laptop though. On a SSD-based netbook, sure. However

disk

space and ram being what they are, the extra cruft (a few tens of Mb) involved in installing KDE 3 and KDE 4 in parallel is no great increase over the bloat we all have from having OpenOffice, Mozilla, Eclipse and maybe a couple of g* apps installed.

Maybe not. But if one situation isn't better than another where's the motivation to change?

Will

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On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Bryen <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:

I'm going off-topic on this reply. I'm sorry, but I feel it has to be said. I respect your choice to not use Compiz, but not the words you've stated. Compiz is actually a very valuable tool for people with disabilities and extends the functionality of their desktop.

You can't really can't count accessibility into numbers because they are in their own group. And, if compiz helps them out, then I support that part of it whileheartedly.

Labeling Compiz as simply bling and eye-candy is an affront to the continuous hard work of the Compiz developers, and diminishes the 20% who don't fit into your 80% scope of definition of a user and is anathema to the concept of community as a whole.

To me, Compiz is just that: eye-candy. I don't need it. Now, for those that want it, hey, that's their choice. My issue is that too much development went into that stuff, where too little went into bringing in stuff that should have already been there. IF KDE4 can become a robust, stable, and efficient system, then I will use it. What I have seen of it was slow, glitzy, and nothing i really care for. I won't get into such things like the look and feel of programs like KMagghong. That was a huge change. But, that happens. At some point, unless KDE3 ends up with a development team, I will have to move to it if I want to continue to use and support KDE. That may or may not happen. I dunno. Still undecided on that one.

Going back on topic, I would really urge you to eliminate throwing out numbers and percentages to state your arguments and instead focus on pointing out what works for you and what doesn't. Those that are providing specifics in this thread seem to gain better traction in getting their point across, rather than those who are simply hiding behind numbers clearly without even knowing who the users are in those numbers. Walk a mile (or kilometer, depending on where you live) in their shoes before you marginalize anyone...

The 80/20 split is a well known issue in software. As for using KDE4, I just haven't had the time to actually delve into it and see it I can change it to what I want/need and to find out why it was so slow. Part of it is probably because I am using older hardware like this Thinkpad A22p P3/1Ghz with an ATI Mobility M3(basically a Rage128). I'm running at 1600x1200(native resolution) at 24bit color, and that takes up most of the video ram available(only have 8MB), so extras like compiz just don't work. I have to drop to 16bit color to run Penguin Planet Racer, but the when I play video, i have to switch back to 24bit or it looks fuzzy(first time i have seen that issue - might be a driver problem). Until recently, I was using a Thinkpad 390X P3/500 that had a Neomagic 256 chip with 2.5MB VRAM. That played movies just fine as well. But KDE4 was really slow. My desktop Celeron Dual Core 3.2Ghz(overclocked) is running an ATI X300, and KDE4 was slower on it than KDE3. So, maybe the devs should try walking a mile in the shoes of people who are satisified with their lower end systems as well. It does work both ways. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Sonntag 07 September 2008 schrieb Bernhard Walle:

* "Larry Stotler" <larrystotler@gmail.com> [2008-09-07 13:19]:

...

That was a huge change. But, that happens. At some point, unless KDE3 ends up with a development team, I will have to move to it if I want to continue to use and support KDE. That may or may not happen. I dunno. Still undecided on that one.

And KDE4 has not yet a decent Tetris game! ksirtet is not yet ported. :-(

Well, it's ported, but it has no maintainer and "works" as such. The lack of maintainer has little to do with the KDE version. Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag 11 September 2008 schrieb Bernhard Walle:

* Stephan Kulow <coolo@novell.com> [2008-09-11]:

...

Well, it's ported, but it has no maintainer and "works" as such. The lack of maintainer has little to do with the KDE version.

It's just not part of the release. While in KDE3 it's there.

So? Other games - with maintainers - got into kdegames. And you might want to look at kblocks. Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org