On 2008/08/29 17:55 (GMT+0200) Michael Loeffler apparently typed:

Please bring up your opinion so that we're doing the right thing for openSUSE 11.1

Until https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152761 is fixed there's no way many of us can consider using KDE4. There are several differences between the old way and the new way that unless changed in KDE4 will keep me on KDE3 until it becomes impossible to continue installing KDE3. I don't even like sampling v4, much less trying to use it. -- "Love is not easily angered. Love does not demand its own way." 1 Corinthians 13:5 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 06:53:30PM +0100, Carlos Goncalves wrote:

On Friday 29 August 2008 16:55:07 Michael Loeffler wrote:

...

b) We may add again both KDEs to the DVD

Between a) and b) I vote b). Main reasons are:

- people fear loosing some of their vital data during automatic (if available) KDE3->KDE4 configs upgrade proccess (eg: PIM data (emails, contacts, todos, etc)). Even if they don't fear it's still risky doing that yet, as they could then blame openSUSE for that (stupid I know but it will happens!) - KDE4 just might be not ready for them (eg: missing features) - annoying bugs which won't be fixed before

...

Cons: - space limitations on DVD may prevent this option - maintenance and integration of 2 KDE desktops needed which the internal KDE team hardly can accomplish - we're backing a desktop which anyway won't receive much attention from upstream anymore - confusion - which KDE should I choose

I do understand these cons, and if openSUSE decides not going for b) than

c) Release an official or non-official KDE3 CD - official : same updates policy as openSUSE 11.0 - non-official: community supported, updates only via buildservice (if any)

Pros: - openSUSE provides KDE3 - less "trash" (packages) installed by default

Do you have a list of packages that you think could be left out? ;) I'm definitely interested in suggestions here! Best, Christoph

- save users and mirrors internet bandwidth (CD < DVD, right?!) - more free space on DVD for additional packages Cons: - more storage space (to be decided if should be hosted on Novell servers -> download.o.o -> openSUSE mirrors) - if officially supported, will require maintenance

-- Regards, Carlos Goncalves

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-- Christoph Thiel, Tech. Project Management, Research & Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2008/8/29 Andreas Stieger :

Hi,

Am Freitag, 29. August 2008 17:55:07 schrieb Michael Loeffler:

...

as discussed in a former project meeting we should discuss how we handle KDE in openSUSE 11.1. To avoid any misunderstanding we will offer on the DVD still KDE and Gnome. It just the question which or how many KDE's ;-)

I think it would be okay to make the DVD KDE4 only because of the space constraints. Users who want to stay on KDE3 could get it from the repositories or stay on the 11.0 altogether. It's a great release for KDE3 so there's less reason to upgrade. (package management, I'm looking at you!)

We should really focus on the quality and integration of KDE4. I'm saying that as a hardcore KDE3 user. Note that for 11.1 we have a shorter development cycle of six months. We should delever an excellently packaged and thouroughly tested KDE4 with KDE3 in maintainance mode.

regards, Andreas

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Andreas Stieger wrote:

Hi,

Am Freitag, 29. August 2008 17:55:07 schrieb Michael Loeffler:

...

as discussed in a former project meeting we should discuss how we handle KDE in openSUSE 11.1. To avoid any misunderstanding we will offer on the DVD still KDE and Gnome. It just the question which or how many KDE's ;-)

I think it would be okay to make the DVD KDE4 only because of the space constraints. Users who want to stay on KDE3 could get it from the repositories or stay on the 11.0 altogether. It's a great release for KDE3 so there's less reason to upgrade. (package management, I'm looking at you!)

We should really focus on the quality and integration of KDE4. I'm saying that as a hardcore KDE3 user. Note that for 11.1 we have a shorter development cycle of six months. We should delever an excellently packaged and thouroughly tested KDE4 with KDE3 in maintainance mode.

regards, Andreas

I agree 100% with Andreas' suggestions, and would like to add to the 'quality and integration' focus the extra area of migration. I've noticed that the current (as of last week anyway) kde4-migrate utility doesn't seem to do very much, at least not for me. An easy to use migration tool that could just ask the simple question "Do you wish to migrate your current desktop settings to KDE4", then handles kwallet, kontact and kopete (and other) settings migration to the correct KDE4 folder would be excellent. Maybe I'm an edge case, but with 8 main email accounts and a lot of rules, plus a lot of contacts in kopete organised by customer company, I would really welcome this. It might be just a case of copying files to the ~/.kde4 directory, but as of now, I don't know if that works so I'm reluctant to try it. I think it would spur the adoption of KDE4.x as a quick way of getting people to see their _real_ desktop, complete with settings and content, rather than just a test/livecd version of what they might get if they spend several hours configuring things by hand. Cheers Pete --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:18 PM, Richard wrote:

On Fri August 29 2008 11:55:07 am Michael Loeffler wrote:

...

Hi,

as discussed in a former project meeting we should discuss how we handle KDE in openSUSE 11.1. To avoid any misunderstanding we will offer on the DVD still KDE and Gnome. It just the question which or how many KDE's ;-)

TWO

Version 3.5.9+ Version 4.1

Richard: +1 Yes, KDE 4.1 is still BETA :( It cannot be considered for serious use. And I don't want openSUSE to make another mistake, that Fedora 9 did (when they dropped KDE3). Even with 11.0 - users complained that KDE4 _was offered_ at all. While being pre-alpha quality. In short, we should have Both KDE3 and 4 available in the DVD install version. It is OK to drop in other packages (even OpenOffice, if you really lack space, would be better sacrifice than KDE3). There are plenty of packages, that can be dropped (KOffice, GNOME Office, KDevelop, ...), But more seriously: I would prefer official multi-DVD install. Thankfully, due to Yast, it is possible to create. (Boxed version of 10.3 was Dual Dual-Layer DVD). The best solution is to release Dual (single-layer) DVD Install Media for 11.1. Yes I know, mirror will hate it, download will take longer, etc... But at some point in time it becomes a necessity. People disliked the idea of having to move from 1 floppy to many. People disliked the idea of having to move from 1 CD to many. But it happened... It is time for openSUSE to move to multi-DVD setup. (In a few years, BD-ROM will solve those issues, so people will have 1 media again) I'm not fool, and I know that it is more convenient to use 1 media, but in our case, it is important to have 2 DVDs, as it will allow us to deliver powerful distro, without serious sacrifices in package number and distro functionality. Once Blu-Ray media will become available in few years time frame, the 1-media convenieve will return. -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 11:14 PM, Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

If KDE 3.5 is dropped from the DVD media will it be present in SLED 11.0 media? I think at this point dropping KDE 3.5 from the openSUSE media and keeping it online would be fine, but it would be unacceptable for one to be unable to install SLES/SLED 11.0 without KDE 3.5 being offered.

No having it online, makes KDE3 second-class citizen in openSUSE. That's not an option. -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 29 August 2008 19:06:11 Christoph Thiel wrote:

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 06:53:30PM +0100, Carlos Goncalves wrote:

...

Pros: - openSUSE provides KDE3 - less "trash" (packages) installed by default

Do you have a list of packages that you think could be left out? ;) I'm definitely interested in suggestions here!

I think you are asking it with the intention of reducing the amount of packages on LiveCDs so the image could fit in a CD, right? :-) It was not what I was referring to, sorry. I was comparing the amount of packages that DVD installs versus CD. I'm against installation of lots of packages by default if the majority of users won't never need/use them. I rather like have a very very clean system with the basic apps (the ones KDE{3,4} LiveCD has basically serves most users needs I think) plus a few others required for special needs, non-oss codecs and wireless firmwares. I would love to point some "unneeded" packages out but I don't use DVDs anymore to install openSUSE since 10.3, though I might try it if you want my personal opinion. Summarising: DVD -> select KDE3/KDE4 -> install packages as it had been from a LiveCD + non-oss codecs and wireless firmwares. Just that. -- Regards, Carlos Goncalves --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 30 August 2008 07:42:38 Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

Seeing as how there isn't a KDE 3.5 live disc for 11.0 and now their is talk of trying to drop 3.5 for 11.1 I doubt there will be a 3.5 livecd on 11.1.

There exists a community-created KDE 3.5 live disc for 11.0 and the same could happen again for 11.1 if someone stands up to create it. Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 29 August 2008 18:45:28 Felix Miata wrote:

Until https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152761 is fixed there's no way many of us can consider using KDE4.

That's a perfect example of what will not prevent the discussed move: command lines (esp. many of them at same time) are mainly used by sophisticated people and I expect those to be able to install and use Konsole/KDE3. Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/08/30 11:26 (GMT+0200) Stephan Binner apparently typed:

On Friday 29 August 2008 18:45:28 Felix Miata wrote:

...

Until https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152761 is fixed there's no way many of us can consider using KDE4.

That's a perfect example of what will not prevent the discussed move: command lines (esp. many of them at same time) are mainly used by sophisticated people and I expect those to be able to install and use Konsole/KDE3.

You know the root meaning of "assume", right? An assumption is what your statement implies, an unwarranted one at that. I'm not that sophisticated, probably the opposite, not being versed in shell scripting at all. That doesn't make Konsole any less useful to me. It's easier to use Konsole than the triple key combination required to get to a virtual console, the natural home of OFMs, which is what I use to do all my routine file & system maintenance chores (typically MC). The non-routine ones I do with YaST2. Therefore, I keep at least one MC session open in Konsole, another tab for simple one liners (so that I don't have to keep opening "run command" and having the results instantly disappear from the idiotic default to not keep window open on completion of the command), and a third for top. On another virtual desktop I have another Konsole open for tailing various logs. I like having all those things in the same places/tabs always (order), instead of the separate windows that KDE strews about seemingly at random according to whatever else is open (chaos). There's also the other problem of figuring out how to get KDE3 after a fresh install after not wasting space installing the unwanted Gnome & incomplete, buggy, beta KDE. I use YaST and/or Smart GUI for such things. Without one of those, how does one figure out what package or packages are required to get a familiar, traditional, complete KDE3 desktop? Curses YaST, while better than nothing, is no fun. People should need it just because they don't like Gnome or KDE betas guised as ready for prime time. Indeed, without YaST2, why SUSE at all? I might as well just pick whatever distro that offers KDE3 easily, and keep on efficiently doing things the way I'm used to, instead of being forced to waste time learning a "new & improved" system that leaves out tools I depend on and simplifies away the ability to get some things done at all. -- "Love is not easily angered. Love does not demand its own way." 1 Corinthians 13:5 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 30 August 2008 12:28:24 Anders Johansson wrote:

Will you be backporting from 4.2? I'm currently running 4.1.63 from UNSTABLE (which isn't so unstable, btw) and there are some nice things in there which I would like to see if 4.1 is the only KDE desktop

If there is time. Add your things to http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Ideas/11.1 Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 5:15 AM, Stephan Binner wrote:

On Saturday 30 August 2008 07:42:38 Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

...

Seeing as how there isn't a KDE 3.5 live disc for 11.0 and now their is talk of trying to drop 3.5 for 11.1 I doubt there will be a 3.5 livecd on 11.1.

There exists a community-created KDE 3.5 live disc for 11.0 and the same could happen again for 11.1 if someone stands up to create it.

For anyone interested, I think Stephan is referring to these: 32-bit: http://www.mininova.org/tor/1692167 64-bit: http://www.mininova.org/tor/1705241 Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier openSUSE Community Manager jzb@zonker.net http://zonker.opensuse.org/ http://www.dissociatedpress.net/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 5:30 AM, Stephan Binner wrote:

KDE 3.5 (the desktop shell, single apps will) will not be on SLED 11 media independent from outcome of this discussion what to include in openSUSE.

Well, then I doubt many corps will use it. SLED and SLES should be the LAST ones to adopt a new desktop. Look at how corporations are paying extra for the Vista "downgrade" so that they can continue to use XP. Whoever thinks that a corp will migrate to SLED v11.0 when it doesn't have KDE 3.x isn't doing their homework. I've made known my position on KDE4 before and won't bring it up here. While I have updated my main box to the newest 4.1(which happened when I had to re-install KTorrent because it was broken on only MY account), I haven't had time to try it out to see if it was any better. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler escribió:

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 5:30 AM, Stephan Binner wrote:

...

KDE 3.5 (the desktop shell, single apps will) will not be on SLED 11 media independent from outcome of this discussion what to include in openSUSE.

Well, then I doubt many corps will use it. SLED and SLES should be the LAST ones to adopt a new desktop. Look at how corporations are paying extra for the Vista "downgrade" so that they can continue to use XP. Whoever thinks that a corp will migrate to SLED v11.0 when it doesn't have KDE 3.x isn't doing their homework.

While I agree with you in the fact that KDE 4 is far from being ready from prime-time, the task of commercially support TWO KDE desktops for 7 or more years is just an insane idea. Well, back to openSUSE, I think we should keep both KDE 3 and KDE4 just the way it is in 11.0 and discuss what to do again in the 11.2 timeframe. -- "A computer is like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. " Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/

On Saturday 30 August 2008 01:02:45 pm Cristian Rodríguez wrote: ...

Well, back to openSUSE, I think we should keep both KDE 3 and KDE4 just the way it is in 11.0 and discuss what to do again in the 11.2 timeframe.

+1 -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi, As I think openSUSE is not intend to be an enterprise product (as SLED/SLES is) and the focus is on a home user (internet, mail, office, music/video thinks) KDE4 is fine, beatiful and a step forward. For a heavy/developer user KDE4 might be lack some features, but as Stephan said before, you can simple install the apps from KDE3, like I did with KBabel, while Localize is not yet that good.... So, offering the two DEs should be the best option, even though I prefer you guys focused only in KDE4 regards, Luiz Fernando 2008/8/30 peter nikolic :

On Saturday 30 August 2008, 69_rs_ss wrote:

...

Michael Loeffler wrote:

...

How about a DVD with Gnome, XFCE4 and KDE 4.x and then a supplementary LiveCD with KDE3 on it? That is a kind of compromise between options a & b. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

How about a an just about beta dvd to hang things like KDE4 etal on and a full proper DVD for KDE3.5.x

-- SuSE Linux 10.3-Alpha3. (Linux is like a wigwam - no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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2008/8/30 Larry Stotler :

Just because youself and other users want a "beautiful" desktop, doesn't mean that a lot of others want it as well. I personally turn off all that garbage. I don't use Compiz. I turn off desktop effects. I turn off sound notifications. That stuff doesn't make me more productive, it just wastes processing power for no gain.

Hi, I turn off all these thinks too...What I tried to say is that for a "basic" user KDE4 is fine, that's the reason I use the LiveCD versions... regards, Luiz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:01 PM, 69_rs_ss wrote:

...

How about a DVD with Gnome, XFCE4 and KDE 4.x and then a supplementary LiveCD with KDE3 on it? That is a kind of compromise between options a & b.

Seeing as how there isn't a KDE 3.5 live disc for 11.0 and now their is talk of trying to drop 3.5 for 11.1 I doubt there will be a 3.5 livecd on 11.1.

Yes, there IS a live CD (32 and 64-bit) but not official releases. Dropping 3.5 is plain ignorant!! Dumb! Stupid!! Fred -- "Security" in Windows comes from patching a sieve. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat August 30 2008 6:47:34 pm Fred A. Miller wrote:

Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

...

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:01 PM, 69_rs_ss wrote:

...

How about a DVD with Gnome, XFCE4 and KDE 4.x and then a supplementary LiveCD with KDE3 on it? That is a kind of compromise between options a & b.

Seeing as how there isn't a KDE 3.5 live disc for 11.0 and now their is talk of trying to drop 3.5 for 11.1 I doubt there will be a 3.5 livecd on 11.1.

Yes, there IS a live CD (32 and 64-bit) but not official releases. Dropping 3.5 is plain ignorant!! Dumb! Stupid!!

Fred

I think Andrew got it backward.... I think it should have been: How about a DVD with Gnome, XFCE4 and KDE3.5.9 and then a supplementary liveCD with KDE4.x on it? That is a kind of a compromise between options a&b. Fred, what you said: +10 Richard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Richard wrote:

On Sat August 30 2008 6:47:34 pm Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

...

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:01 PM, 69_rs_ss wrote:

...

How about a DVD with Gnome, XFCE4 and KDE 4.x and then a supplementary LiveCD with KDE3 on it? That is a kind of compromise between options a & b. Seeing as how there isn't a KDE 3.5 live disc for 11.0 and now their is talk of trying to drop 3.5 for 11.1 I doubt there will be a 3.5 livecd on 11.1. Yes, there IS a live CD (32 and 64-bit) but not official releases. Dropping 3.5 is plain ignorant!! Dumb! Stupid!!

Fred

I think Andrew got it backward.... I think it should have been: How about a DVD with Gnome, XFCE4 and KDE3.5.9 and then a supplementary liveCD with KDE4.x on it? That is a kind of a compromise between options a&b.

Fred, what you said: +10

Thanks! I just finished today removing KDE4 from the last client who had it. It's shows a lot of promise, but it WON'T be a full replacement for KDE 3.5 for the release of openSUSE 11.1. That's why I want to know now if 3.5 is going to still be included and with FULL support so I know whether I'll prepare now that I'll be replacing all openSUSE on my systems AND client systems or not with KUbuntu and RH for enterprise boxen. Yep.....I feel that strongly about this issue. Fred -- "Security" in Windows comes from patching a sieve. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Druid wrote:

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 8:02 PM, Fred A. Miller wrote: <almost all bla bla bla trimmed>

...

for my systems and ALL of my clients.

Fred,

Stick to the relevant topic, we dont want to know about your feelings, life and etc. It has nothing to do with opensuse-factory. People signed up to opensuse-factory dont wanna now, seriously.

Well, too bad. It IS relevant. Wrong decisions affect ALL of us. Further, I'm certainly not alone in my view.

That said, I like the approach done in 11.0, and it could be kept that way, imho.

Of course it can and should be done. I just want to know if it is or isn't. If not, then there are going to be a lot of us who have a decision to make. Fred -- "Security" in Windows comes from patching a sieve. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Druid wrote:

...

Well, too bad. It IS relevant. Wrong decisions affect ALL of us. Further, I'm certainly not alone in my view.

Its not too bad. Its annoying and offtopic. I couldn't care less what you are going to do today, tomorrow, next month. Its not as if you were Eva Longoria, then I' d be all about hearing news from you. But even in this case, it wouldn't be in opensuse-factory.

Nor do I care what you like or don't like in my posts! It IS on topic, and others have expressed their displeasure as well. Fred -- "Security" in Windows comes from patching a sieve. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat August 30 2008 11:24:41 pm Druid wrote:

On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 12:17 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote silly stuff: <bla bla bla deleted>

It is not on topic, so you should care about it and not pollute the list with silliness. Take it to opensuse-whining@opensuse.org

This thread was started by a member of a representative of Novell and included input from Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier openSUSE Community Manager soliciting input and opinion relative to the subject. It is relative to the subject if by the openSuSE-Factory minions perpetuating a mistake that erstwhile loyal openSuSE Linux users and fans are alienated to the point of seeking other distributions and actively removing openSuSE from their and their clients systems. That is what is happening because a few vociferous enthusiastic proponents of what potentially will become a future standard are trying to ram it down the throat of everyone. I hasten to point out that one of the goals of openSuSE Linux is to promote Linux and attract NEW users, users that are by definition unfamiliar with Linux, SuSE in general and most certainly with anything remotely approaching a CLI because most of the world still uses Windoze in some form or another and that means most NEW users of openSuSE are not Linux literate. For the developers of KDE and those that are familiar with testing and debugging, the current state of KDE 4.x is absolute paridise, for anyone trying to do real work, trying to convert their mentality from Windoze to Linux and just expect/hope that 'it just works' because if it doesn't, they have no clue, then KDE 4.1 is an unmitigated disaster and is NOT the cutting edge of technology, it is a dull saw blade that still needs a lot of work to be called a cutting device of any type. The opensuse-factory list is where the developers and managers and decision makers 'live' and pertainent opinions and feedback relavent to a question THEY posed is most definitely ON TOPIC because if it isn't, then the question is off topic in the first place, and the whole mailing list borders on totally worthless, as openSuSE will be if mistakes like 4.1 are allowed to continue without checks and balance. I totally condone continued support and development of KDE 4.x, I totally abhor ramming it down our throats and removing features and software that is useful and relatively complete and stable in the misguided name of 'progress'. Richard Creighton CSC, Inc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 31 August 2008 01:02:53 Fred A. Miller wrote:

I'll add, that not only will I NOT use 11.1, but I'll be "done" with for my systems and ALL of my clients.

Do you really think that threats like this or "my company will not use openSUSE anymore" add anything to the discussion or will change anything? What really would change some things are people who would step up and offering help, like with KDE 3.5 Live-CD, but I only see people crying and demanding. Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 31 August 2008 01:14:09 Fred A. Miller wrote:

That's why I want to know now if 3.5 is going to still be included and with FULL support so I know whether I'll prepare now that I'll be replacing all openSUSE on my systems AND client systems or not with KUbuntu and RH for enterprise boxen.

Dunno why you think that Kubuntu or Red Hat will release new enterprise pro- ducts with KDE 3.5 - last Fedora does not include KDE 3.5 anymore at all... Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 31 August 2008 10:01:30 Stephan Binner wrote:

...

KDE 3.5 included in the next openSUSE release and FULL support for it, then GUARANTEED - flat out FACT, there will be a mass exodus to KUbutu! What do you know about the KDE 3.5 plans of Kubuntu?

To answer, obviously nothing. Next Kubuntu release will contain no KDE 3.5 desktop: "if you want 3.5 stay with hardy". Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* openSUSE will eventually remove KDE3 and move completely to KDE4. What criteria do you have for this move? We should try to come to a firm decision and not start from scratch with every release.

The only criteria I see, is when KDE4 will have all the features, that are missing, that were in KDE3. Plus KDE4 is a usability nightmare. Changing defaults can help resolve some of those cases.

* What are *you* doing to improve the situation? Supporting two KDE versions is work - and therefore our KDE developers cannot invest as much in KDE4 as they would want to do. How do *you* want to help the KDE developers - both the openSUSE ones with packages and the upstream team?

* please give facts why you choose something

I have started a long detailed thread at opensuse-kde mailing list pointing out _real_ issues in KDE4, and opened multiple bug reports. It was mainly between me and Dirk, who is openSUSE/Novell KDE team maintainer. I would prefer not to convert this topic into a list technical & usability issues. Here is the archive: ( [opensuse-kde] KDE4 usability issues ) http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-kde/2008-08/ -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 31 August 2008 13:46:05 Druid wrote:

Im inclined to answer no to that question. Why? Because 11.1 will be the base for enterprise CODE11, it will be around for a long time, its for the best it has less maintainability constraints.

Well, it is the base, but that doesn't mean everything that is in 11.1 will be in SLE11. It was stated on this list that SLE11 will only have KDE4 regardless of the outcome of this discussion

KDE4 and enterprise discussion is very silly. I have yet to remember the last time I have accessed an enterprise linux server and I executed gnome, kde or etc... The closest thing that happens is to run ssh -X to install oracle, or some weird GUI. If you have problems with GUI and enterprise, you are doing it wrong, sorry to be the one to open your eyes. Enterprise couldnt care less about GUI.

There is such a thing as an enterprise desktop. SLED11. Anders --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Well, it is the base, but that doesn't mean everything that is in 11.1 will be in SLE11. It was stated on this list that SLE11 will only have KDE4 regardless of the outcome of this discussion

Sure, you are correct.

...

KDE4 and enterprise discussion is very silly. I have yet to remember the last time I have accessed an enterprise linux server and I executed gnome, kde or etc... The closest thing that happens is to run ssh -X to install oracle, or some weird GUI. If you have problems with GUI and enterprise, you are doing it wrong, sorry to be the one to open your eyes. Enterprise couldnt care less about GUI.

There is such a thing as an enterprise desktop. SLED11.

Yeah, for a moment I though about enterprise desktop, instead of only servers... But then I opted for commenting only about the servers. I havent seen lots of enterprise linux desktops out there. The few I've seen were some dedicated engineering workstations, and in that case well you do your job, uses the way IT installs it, or the vendor and be done. Except for that, you are a geek/nerd adn you are using your own desktop and more or less freely and you install whatever you want (I see some companies doing that). The point is Im not too worried about enterprise desktop. Novell should care about. I believe most people will run opensuse (and they should anyway), and in opensuse-land there will always be a solution, like an add-on repository with KDE3 for example, or some kiwi live cd or instructions to make a KDE3 media, people adapt to the situation. In enterprise, in most of the cases you wouldnt be tweaking the desktop, changing this or that... The system is there for work, not for playing. cheers Marcio --- Druid

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On Sat August 30 2008 11:13:18 am Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 11:55 AM, Michael Loeffler wrote:

...

What can/should we do? b) We may add again both KDEs to the DVD Pros: we offer choice and may make everybody happy Cons: - space limitations on DVD may prevent this option - maintenance and integration of 2 KDE desktops needed which the internal KDE team hardly can accomplish - we're backing a desktop which anyway won't receive much attention from upstream anymore - confusion - which KDE should I choose

I'm in favor of B -- with a clear statement that 11.1 would be the last release that features KDE 3.5x on "official" DVD.

Right now, while I think 4.1 is a clear improvement, it's still a major change from 3.5x and we still see a lot of users who want to use 3.5. We ought to include 3.5.10 release as a desktop option for 11.1, and start looking to the community to take up stewardship of KDE 3.5 packages around 11.2.

This certainly isn't the most convenient path, but I think it's the best path for our users with 11.1.

Best,

Zonker

I hope your level of 'sanity' prevails. No one is saying STOP to 4.x. No one is saying DEVELOP 3.5x in parallel, they are saying KEEP 3.5x UNTIL 4.x matures enough to legitimately replace 3.5x without having to beg, file endless bug-reports and enhancement requests to get functions already existant in 3.5x back. There is little overhead in simply INCLUDING 3.5x in all distros until 4.x is competent to replace it in all functional respects. I, and my company WANT 4.x to succeed and more than that, we WANT LINUX and openSuSE to succeed, but that depends on attracting and keeping the Windoze lemmings. They won't understand it when you tell them they can't do this and they can't do that on their computer under 'Linux' when they could always do it under Windoze....and they darned sure aren't going to become programmers and systems operators in order to install 'backports' of a desktop environment that does work in a manner they expect with minimal 'learning curve' problems. Zonker, as you are in some way 'management', then I beseech you, manage....make a decision, force sanity to prevail. Don't arbitrarily assume that 11.1, .2 or .n will be the 'last' requiring co-desktop options, assume that as a goal, not a barrier. IF 4.x matures to be functionally equal to 3.5x, albeit different, but functionally equal or superior, I don't think anyone will really complain if a legacy version is dropped from the install distro, but as long as 4.x is still 'pre-release' or 'beta' quality with huge gaps in functionality or stability remaining, don't paint yourself into a corner. I continue to test 4.x but USE 3.5x when I need reliability and completeness. OpenSuSE v11.0 has plenty of issues (wireless networking comes to mind) that are independent of the desktop that hopefully are being addressed and improved in 11.1 and will continue to develop in later releases. IF people are patently unable to use the improved OPERATING SYSTEMS because the desktop environment inhibits them by design or omission, they lose the value of the improvements in the OS itself. It isn't just KDE. It is a matter of choice. OpenSuSE has long offered a choice in desktops, or not desktop at all if that is the user's choice. What harm is there in offering a legacy version of KDE just like there is offered Gnome and others in parallel? Offering the legacy version until 4.x matures is almost cost-free. The argument that it interferes with 4.x development is specious. It doesn't. Just say, it is included but no development will occur on it or its' included apps. IE, it is pretty stable, use it as is and we will only address things we specifically break because of changes in the underlying OS but not developing new gizzywhatchits for it. The only other 'cost' is the small amount of space it takes on the DVD. There is no need to play Microsloth and bloat the code 'required' on the DVD with other really "important" programs like GAMES. Games, zillions of screensavers, multiple programming languages and environments are neat, but unnecessary if space is a real issue. What will attract and KEEP Windoze and other distro converts is a functional desktop with a functional operating system and a intuitive (yast2 comes to mind) way to add the other bells and whistles. They just shouldn't have to do a bunch of 'stuff' to make it do their day in and day out WORK, it just should.... If it has a cutting edge *developmental* desktop also available, well, that is icing in the cake as long as the cake is still there in case all the icing gags you. One of the KDE developers in this thread said 'bye' to several people because they said they no longer would support openSuSE if it continued to make mistakes like dropping 3.5x prematurely, one even said that we would still be on 3.2 or some earlier version. He was justifying making mistakes in the name of progress regardless of the consequences. I say, that is wrong and 2 or more wrongs does not make a right. What is right is to stop making mistakes. Zonker, help openSuSE stop making mistakes! Please! Richard Creighton CSC, Inc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 31 August 2008 16:30:37 Richard wrote:

I, and my company WANT 4.x to succeed and more than that, we WANT LINUX and openSuSE to succeed, but that depends on attracting and keeping the Windoze lemmings. They won't understand it when you tell them they can't do this and they can't do that on their computer under 'Linux' when they could always do it under Windoze....

That is an interesting new claim: can you please give functionality examples to which Windows users are used to that are not available with KDE 4.1?

but as long as 4.x is still 'pre-release' or 'beta' quality with huge gaps in functionality or stability remaining

I dispute the existance of "huge gaps". :-)

Offering the legacy version until 4.x matures is almost cost-free.

You are mistaken: it requires efforts both pre- (keep it building and working, branding, testing, translation, documentation, ...) as post-release (security fixes for two years). Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

That is an interesting new claim: can you please give functionality examples to which Windows users are used to that are not available with KDE 4.1?

"Show Desktop" is not available by default in KDE4. I have spent several hours looking for this single feature... -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov"

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On Sunday 31 August 2008 19:09:13 Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

"Show Desktop" is not available by default in KDE4. I have spent several hours looking for this single feature...

There is an applet "Show desktop" in KDE 4.1, add it to your plasma panel :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/08/31 18:45 (GMT+0200) Stephan Binner apparently typed:

On Sunday 31 August 2008 16:30:37 Richard wrote:

...

but as long as 4.x is still 'pre-release' or 'beta' quality with huge gaps in functionality or stability remaining

I dispute the existance of "huge gaps". :-)

It only takes one deal breaker to make an insurmountable (aka "huge") gap. Lack of equivalent session restore is all it takes to make v4 unusable for me, compounded by a bunch of irritating nit differences. I like the old way better, and have 0 use for eye candy and things that change on mouse hover. -- "Love is not easily angered. Love does not demand its own way." 1 Corinthians 13:5 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Fred Miller [08-31-08 15:18]: Come on, Fred. Tell us what you *really* think :^)

I guess what this all boils down to is a number of us don't like being told we're going to have to put with being crammed into a limited Vista like box!

Not so, and you are swearing... You do *not* have to use the new version.

And, as much as some aren't going to like my saying that...too bad. 4.* looks like another Vista "like" interface and so far, even though it looks nice etc., CONFIGURABILITY is sorely lacking! The eye candy and mouse hover stuff most of us will live with, but if we can't configure KDE like we and OUR USERS have in 3.5, then it's worthless to us because usability then has been drastically reduced. One just can't gloss over these issues, nor try to cram everyone in the same ticky tacky box.

Ease up a little, Fred. You are *not* paying these people for a product, but appealing to their good will. If you walked into any buisness providing a free service and carried on such a tirade, you would be thrown out. Demands require cash...!

Some of these people sound like they should be working for MickySoft.

Swearing again, slapping donors in the face. How is it said: "Don't slap a gift horse in the mouth!". You are going to develope ulsers before you reach my age :^). -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Actually, I'd be happy to pay for my openSUSE! I used to buy a dozen or so retail boxed sets of each version when they were available in stores. I didn't buy them because we needed them all, but to support SuSE. Maybe Novell should look at consumers like me as a missed marketing opportunity? There's nothing like seeing a boxed set on a shelf at Frys to make you want to lay down your money. Could SLED be sold in stores?

+1 I also like to pay for Open Source, but differently. I usually donate small sums of money (20-50$) each month to different OSS projects. -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Fredag 29 august 2008 17:55:07 skrev Michael Loeffler:

as discussed in a former project meeting we should discuss how we handle KDE in openSUSE 11.1. To avoid any misunderstanding we will offer on the DVD still KDE and Gnome. It just the question which or how many KDE's ;-)

Please bring up your opinion so that we're doing the right thing for openSUSE 11.1

I "vote" solution a) - only kde 4.1.x in the distro. For the reasons already given by michl on behalf of the internal team, plus: * The experienced users whining, will still be whining about different behaviour, missing pet fringe feature or the pain of reconfiguring certain things even when 4.2, 4.3 or 4.4 is out anyway. There'll be a painful migration sometime - better sooner than later. * If we get new users to use KDE3 on 11.1, they'll have the trouble of migrating from 3->4 on 11.2. * KDE4 is the future - there's no way around it. We should put all our effort in making the future as bright as possible instead of clinging to the past, waiting hoping for someone else to do the work for us. * Kubuntu, Mandriva and Fedora all do the same or similar. There are some cases where there's a valid _need_ (not just lazyness or conservatism) for KDE3 due to some of the missing functionality or the bugs - to them we'll have to say: "Stay on 11.0/3.5 for another release". But those cases are few, and getting fewer every day. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:

I "vote" solution a) - only kde 4.1.x in the distro. For the reasons already given by michl on behalf of the internal team, plus: * The experienced users whining, will still be whining about different behaviour, missing pet fringe feature or the pain of reconfiguring certain things even when 4.2, 4.3 or 4.4 is out anyway. There'll be a painful migration sometime - better sooner than later.

Oh, so any of us who think KDE4 is not ready are automatically consider whiners? That's a preofessional attitude to take. Should I call you names for disagreeing with me? I'm not, so I would appreciate it if all of that was dropped. Those of us who have stuck with KDE3 because KDE4 is lacking in many things as well as the fact that it is SLOWER if you don't have powerful graphicas cards. I run openSUSE on systems ranging from a 3.2Ghz Core2 down to a 266Mhz G3 Powerbook. So far I have not seen ANY compelling reason to run KDE4. It's more glitz and eyecandy than anything else. If I wanted that I would run OS X.

* If we get new users to use KDE3 on 11.1, they'll have the trouble of migrating from 3->4 on 11.2.

That is a good point. That's why I think 11.1 should be delayed so that it can include KDE 4.2 sinc eit appears that 4.2 will actually be a full featured system that will have everything that KDE3 has,

* KDE4 is the future - there's no way around it. We should put all our effort in making the future as bright as possible instead of clinging to the past, waiting hoping for someone else to do the work for us. * Kubuntu, Mandriva and Fedora all do the same or similar.

Fedora lost a lot of users with 9 because they didn't offer KDE3 and their KDE4 was nowhere near as good as openSUSE's. Does this community really want to alienate more people by dropping a sold, reliable GUI in favor of an incomplete one that won't even run a lot of extras that are still KDE3 compatible?

There are some cases where there's a valid _need_ (not just lazyness or conservatism) for KDE3 due to some of the missing functionality or the bugs - to them we'll have to say: "Stay on 11.0/3.5 for another release". But those cases are few, and getting fewer every day.

Sure, maybe I'll just stick with 11.0 for the next few releases. Why not? I still run SuSE 9.3 on one machine and 8.1 on an old laptop. Then I won't need to worry about beta testing and filing bug reports and helping to make sure that the next version is ready and stable. That would really free up my time and allow me to focus on what I want to do instead of helping out a community that Ihae supported for over 9 years. That's for showing me that my contributions haven't been appriciated and that my continued use of this distro isn't something that the community wants to see happen. Good job. The KDE team should have spent more time making KDE4 complete instead of adding all kinds of eye candy and useless extras that dont' t make me and a lot of us productive but can make our desktop look "Cool" and make use of these high end graphics cards that we don't have really any games for anyways. That's the M$ philosophy. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Tirsdag 02 september 2008 06:12:29 skrev peter nikolic:

well the way it's going it'll not be ready till about 11.9

Yes, that's exactly why I think some users need a gentle kick in the ass, and the developers need to spend their time on fixing KDE4.x rather than supporting KDE3. Don't get me wrong - I fully acknowledge that KDE4.1 lacks some nice features and polish that KDE3 has, and that migrating is painful because you have to reconfigure a lot of things and relearn things and change some workflows. I only fully migrated myself 5-6 weeks ago and the first 4-6 days were hell. But migrating won't become easier by putting it off - on the contrary I expect. And KDE 4.1 _does_ have a lot of nice features that KDE3 doesn't have - discarding it all as glitz is bullocks.

this aint windbLoWs so stop trying to make it so

It's funny, most of the people doing comparisons of KDE4 with Microsoft or Windows seem to have the mindset of Microsoft customers. Only caring about their own immediate convenience - not giving a hoot about what's good for KDE or the free software desktop in general in the bigger picture - and certainly not willing to make any small sacrifice or contribute with something. "Boycotting" and complaining might be a good strategy for unhappy MS Windows Vista customers... .. but it _doesn't_ make KDE4 better - usage, constructive feedback and contributions _does_. That's how a free software community project like KDE works. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 1:12 AM, peter nikolic wrote:

Stop acting like a whining demanding kid. Our quota for little girls screaming in circles making scandal is already full. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2008/8/30 Stephan Binner :

On Saturday 30 August 2008 01:14:07 Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

...

If KDE 3.5 is dropped from the DVD media will it be present in SLED 11.0 media? I think at this point dropping KDE 3.5 from the openSUSE

KDE 3.5 (the desktop shell, single apps will) will not be on SLED 11 media independent from outcome of this discussion what to include in openSUSE.

Bye, Steve

This was interesting. We are using some SLED/SLES, but we do not consider KDE 4.x to be acceptable there as these are used in environments requireing the highest stability. (Other plasces we use openSUSE ++) A problematic issue is this whole issue with the NVIDIA's driver issue. (Although this migh have improved in the latest beta a few days ago) But generally, my vote is for openSUSE to go KDE4.x and leave KDE3.x in maintenance mode. If KDE 3.x is needed, please use an older openSUSE distro. (SLES/SLED though should have both :-) ) Regards Birger --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 2:58 AM, Martin Schlander wrote:

Yes, that's exactly why I think some users need a gentle kick in the ass, and the developers need to spend their time on fixing KDE4.x rather than supporting KDE3.

The devs need the kick, not the users. They spent too much time making bling and not enough time porting over the core system. Forcing the users to accept the new system is what M$ does, not what the FOSS community does.

Don't get me wrong - I fully acknowledge that KDE4.1 lacks some nice features and polish that KDE3 has, and that migrating is painful because you have to reconfigure a lot of things and relearn things and change some workflows. I only fully migrated myself 5-6 weeks ago and the first 4-6 days were hell.

Well, I for one don't have the time to waste getting it to work. I have a job and kids to deal with. If it takes away from my getting stuff done, then it's not worth it. COme to think of it, I probably devote too much time to things like this list as well. Maybe I should move on since it appears I am going to be railroaded into using something that is lacking compared to what I currently use. Doesn't matter that I've supported SuSE for 9+ years.

But migrating won't become easier by putting it off - on the contrary I expect. And KDE 4.1 _does_ have a lot of nice features that KDE3 doesn't have - discarding it all as glitz is bullocks.

The glitz is the problem. Too many users think that they need bling. I need stability. Linux is known for stability. SuSE is known for stability. 10.1 had enough issues. Are we going to have to start skipping x.1 releases because of things like this?

It's funny, most of the people doing comparisons of KDE4 with Microsoft or Windows seem to have the mindset of Microsoft customers.

I've been a WinDoZE hater for as long as that piece of garbage has been around. I take offense at that comment. :-)

Only caring about their own immediate convenience - not giving a hoot about what's good for KDE or the free software desktop in general in the bigger picture - and certainly not willing to make any small sacrifice or contribute with something.

I'll remember that when I think that it's time to pull the next alpha or beta to test it out. I guess I don't, and haven't made any sacrifices to help make openSUSE a better product.

"Boycotting" and complaining might be a good strategy for unhappy MS Windows Vista customers... .. but it _doesn't_ make KDE4 better - usage, constructive feedback and contributions _does_. That's how a free software community project like KDE works.

I've boycotted WinDoZe for years. I've argued for what I feel is the best for the community, not for my personal choice. If KDE 4.2 is going to have everything that KDE3.x has, then we need to reset our release date so that we can have the full KDE, not a backported and feature incomplete version. And keep in mind that a lof of users aren't adding in the KDE build service, so they are stuck with 4.0.x, and don't have the newer 4.1 that a lot of us have updated to. This needs to be considered as well. If we are serious about removing 3.5.x, then we need to wait for 4.2. Anything else is a bad idea and will come back to bite us badly. Is it really neccessary to push 11.1 out and then have 4.2 be released not long after? Delays are common in software, and no one will tink any less if that happens, and most will be more appriciative if it does. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

If we are serious about removing 3.5.x, then we need to wait for 4.2.

Oh really: What are the changes that will come in 4.2 that qualifies it to have your bless? Or you just pulled a random number out of thin air? Because then I will say we will have to wait for 3 asteroids to hit the earth, and a light comes from the middle of one of them, and a monkey start flying, etc etc and other arbitrary events... Marcio --- Druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

Maybe because is probably not doable atm ?

KDE v4.2 is scheduled to be released on January 27th. That's just a little over a month past the current projection for 11.1. Therefore, if 11.1 is delayed to February, it's possible that it could have 4.2 in it instead of being released just prior to and having 4.1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 11:03 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

Maybe because is probably not doable atm ?

KDE v4.2 is scheduled to be released on January 27th. That's just a little over a month past the current projection for 11.1. Therefore, if 11.1 is delayed to February, it's possible that it could have 4.2 in it instead of being released just prior to and having 4.1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I'm just an observer on this thread thus far, but from what I'm reading in this post, that certainly doesn't sound like a good idea. A) You have no idea how good 4.2 really will be. It could be fraught with bugs to the glory, usability issues, and whatnot. This really sounds like putting the cart before the horse. B) That proposed new release schedule certainly puts pressure on the distro release, as it doesn't give us time to truly and fully vet the effectiveness of KDE 4.2 on 11.1. I don't see why a repository couldn't be created after 11.1 is released allowing users who choose to do so to add 4.2 of their own will. But to put an entire distro on hold for a version release just doesn't seem to make much sense, as the distro is a compilation of many things, not just one thing. Bryen --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 08:53 -0700, Greg KH wrote:

If you don't like it, start sending patches, the process is very easy to get involved with. Ranting on this list isn't going to help it any.

The other option is to pay a developer to do what you want. Hub --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/09/02 13:25 (GMT-0300) Druid apparently typed:

KDE4 has konsole, that gives you all the functionalities you need. Heck, twm gives you all the functionalities you need.

You obviously don't know what I need, and probably not what anyone else needs either. Konsole4 lacks functionalities long-present in Konsole3, which means KDE4 does *not* have all the functionalities I need. Plus, KDE4 has changes that interfere with getting my work done. KDE4 is not ready to replace KDE3, and doesn't look to be prior to 11.1 release. Both should be treated like valid forks, and both supplied as long as there is demand. KDE4 isn't much more alike KDE3 than it is Gnome, and ought to be renamed, to make it clear how vast is the difference between it and KDE3. -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Once again, this KDE3 vs KDE4 discussion has degenerated into a bunch of name calling and other things that are not doing anything to help anyone on this list. The OP asked US what our thoughts were on what should happen with KDE3 in 11.1. 1. Some of us feel that 11.1 should include KDE 3.x IF KDE 4.x isn't completely ready as a replacement. This is OUR opinion. We have tried to use KDE4 and have found that it is sorely lacking when compared to KDE3. I personally would welcome KDE4 IF it can deliver what I need in a desktop. It's supposed to be faster, use less memory, and allow for the future. I have not found it to be faster. I have found it to be full of bling and useless stuff that I could care less about. I have found it to be slower and my workhorse machines. 2. Some people have found that KDE4 is very useful out of the box. Good for them. At least they are happy with it. 3. Some have found that once they've updated to to v4.1, Which I'm willing to bet that most users have NOT done, that it's a lot better. 4. Some have found that they have had to do a lot of work to make it usable. Therefore, we have a lot of different viewpoints as to where KDE4 is at and whether it is ready to be a complete replacement for KDE3. I personally favor waiting for 4.2 IF it will be a complete replacement for 3.x. However, some feel that the distro should not wait just for one component, and while that's a good point, in my opinion it's worth the wait because it's such a large part of the system. It's not like Firefox3, which was released just a few days past 11.0 and was an easy update. KDE is a major part of the system, and I feel that it would be worth the wait IF it will give us a more complete and stable system. That's my opinion on the matter. Some may agree and some will not. Hpefully we can get back to a more productive discussion now. Thanx --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 2. September 2008 13:56:18 schrieb Larry Stotler:

On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Birger Kollstrand

wrote:

...

This was interesting. We are using some SLED/SLES, but we do not consider KDE 4.x to be acceptable there as these are used in environments requireing the highest stability. (Other plasces we use openSUSE ++) A problematic issue is this whole issue with the NVIDIA's driver issue. (Although this migh have improved in the latest beta a few days ago)

Yes, too many are speaking of SLES, and forgetting about SLED, which is the corporate DESKTOP replacement that Novell sells. There are probably more desktop versions than server versions in most larger companies.

...

But generally, my vote is for openSUSE to go KDE4.x and leave KDE3.x in maintenance mode. If KDE 3.x is needed, please use an older openSUSE distro. (SLES/SLED though should have both :-) )

Gee, I wonder how the gnome users would feel if it was decided that it would no longer be supported. Oh, just use the older version, you don't need the newer features or kernel support of the current. Actually, since we don't want you as a user anyway, why not just move to another distro.

When I rest in using 11.0 with kde3.5.9 I dont think I'm out of support for the next year. If you're missing somthing now, feel free to move. In one year, when focus is only on kde4, I think it works like 3.5 ore better with new features .

Actually, it amazes me that no one even bothered to reply to any of the comments I left suggesting that 11.1 be delayed so that it can include a fully working KDE 4.2. It seems that the prevailing opinion is that kde 4.x is "good enough" and if you don't like it you can lump it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-- Neues Auto? http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=71780305 http://www.autoscout24.de/Details.aspx?ts=290937.5&id=beuidujcy3yo --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Reading this thread, let me ask some meta-questions: * please give facts why you choose something * openSUSE will eventually remove KDE3 and move completely to KDE4. What criteria do you have for this move? We should try to come to a firm decision and not start from scratch with every release. * What are *you* doing to improve the situation? Supporting two KDE versions is work - and therefore our KDE developers cannot invest as much in KDE4 as they would want to do. How do *you* want to help the KDE developers - both the openSUSE ones with packages and the upstream team? Always remember we're speaking about Open Source software here ;)

* And let's please try to keep the thread focused, it's too large to drift off into rant land, thanks :) I'm pretty puzzled. I understand what's at stake. Clearly: * if the KDE packagers+devs @Novell are busy with keeping KDE3, they'll have less time to improve KDE4 (fix bugs, backport, don't assume it's all bling) * KDE3 will die anyway, whether we like it or not, and keeping KDE3 for 2 years will be an even bigger burden in one year's time than it would be now (other distros won't ship it, and I would assume almost no non-Novell KDE devs will work on KDE3 maintenance in a few months' time) But I'm afraid that not having a stable KDE3 as a fallback option could have terrible consequences. And I'm not talking about experienced users with a proper internet link, those can simply add the KDE:KDE3 repository and be done with it. Everyone has different needs and expectations, but I somehow see one scenario as being really problematic without KDE3: beginners who get an 11.1 DVD, install it, choose KDE4 and find it to be way too buggy to work with. What options do they have ? - - drop Linux and go back to Windows, because Linux is too buggy to work with (no, they won't necessarily think of trying GNOME or finding out how to install KDE3 from the internet) - - drop openSUSE and switch to another distro, because openSUSE is too buggy to work with (arguably, other distros won't ship KDE3 either in their upcoming releases, but I still think it's a risk) - - switch to GNOME ? would they ? maybe (don't get me wrong, that would be fine ;)) And also for more experienced users: I tend to think that many are more religious about desktop environments (KDE/GNOME/XFCE/whatnot) than about distributions. Wouldn't many rather switch to another distro with KDE3 (if such a thing exists when 11.1 is released) rather than switching to GNOME or XFCE or ... ? Arguably, those should be able to find the KDE3 repos in the Build Service. But see the next point. One thing I don't understand though: - - you're saying that maintaining KDE3 during the lifetime of 11.1 is such a problem - - you're also saying that you don't want to drop KDE3, just move it off the media and have it in the OBS That doesn't make sense to me, because you'd still have to maintain a working KDE3 in the OBS repositories. What's the difference ? (and I'm leaving SLE completely out of the equation here) I'm currently rather in favour of keeping a KDE3 desktop as a fallback option on 11.1, hoping that KDE4 will have matured sufficiently for 11.2 to be a solid working horse by then. But well.. if KDE3 is not shipped as an installation option, it must be *very* clearly stated in the desktop chooser that KDE3 is available from add-on repositories (and maybe make it possible to add that repo during installation and grab it from there ?) I fear that only <50% of users will be aware that KDE3 is available from OBS repos. Just because _we_ know it's there doesn't mean everyone will find out. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::23+24 Feb 2008, Brussels, http://fosdem.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIv3j9r3NMWliFcXcRAlSyAJ9rZLxbyU0+QRa4fnd1YZCASNXSbQCeKq1d tRA1yO0O6mfkUAGNNlHByi4= =Fbkq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 04 September 2008 12:58:21 am Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

Reading this thread, let me ask some meta-questions: * please give facts why you choose something * openSUSE will eventually remove KDE3 and move completely to KDE4. What criteria do you have for this move? We should try to come to a firm decision and not start from scratch with every release. * What are *you* doing to improve the situation? Supporting two KDE versions is work - and therefore our KDE developers cannot invest as much in KDE4 as they would want to do. How do *you* want to help the KDE developers - both the openSUSE ones with packages and the upstream team? Always remember we're speaking about Open Source software here ;) ... But I'm afraid that not having a stable KDE3 as a fallback option could have terrible consequences. And I'm not talking about experienced users with a proper internet link,

Andreas Jaeger wrote: those can simply add the KDE:KDE3 repository and be done with it.

Everyone has different needs and expectations, but I somehow see one scenario as being really problematic without KDE3: beginners who get an 11.1 DVD, install it, choose KDE4 and find it to be way too buggy to work with. What options do they have ? .... I fear that only <50% of users will be aware that KDE3 is available from OBS repos. Just because _we_ know it's there doesn't mean everyone will find out.

cheers

How much time would require to provide KDE3 mostly as is, with very limited support for the most critical flaws, completely stopping work on functional fixes. Clearly state that KDE4 is future that is actively developed, and fully supported by openSUSE, while KDE3 is there for user convenience and has limited support. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 MH wrote:

I was directed to this mailing by a forum member (whom I thought was a principle member) as a place to post user's thoughts on KDE3/KDE4 and the future of openSUSE. I'm just a user, not a developer, and I may be out of place here but I'll put in my two cents worth and then leave:

Thanks for your feedback. Any input is welcome, which is why this thread was started in the first place :)

Personally, I agree 100% with the post at the end of the thread below. If both KDE3 and KDE4 cannot be maintained as user install options, then I would prefer to stick with KDE3 at least until KDE4.2. KDE4.1 is still not ready for prime time in my opinion. I've been testing 4.1 on a virtual machine and there are simply too many major applications missing (K3b, Kaffeine, Amarok) and still too many useability features that either don't work (icon resizing) or have yet to be implemented (panel hiding). There are still stability issues as well. I had one crash that corrupted my VM image.

I don't think that missing applications is an issue. I would believe that the plan for the "no KDE3" option would be to keep the KDE3 flavours of applications that have not been ported to KDE4 (or aren't stable enough) yet, e.g. ship the KDE3 k3b "with KDE4". That would also mean that the KDE3 runtime libraries have to be shipped with 11.1 in any case, but I would assume that this is the plan in any case.

KDE3 is very stable, fully functional, user friendly, and good looking. It wouldn't bother me to keep it as my primary desktop for at least another year.

Yeah, that's my feeling too. But I'm afraid that it isn't really giving a solution for 11.1 either. We can't simply disregard the argumentation of our KDE team, push the burden on them and then whine later if KDE4 development isn't going quickly enough (yes, I know, I'm somehow contradicting myself... playing the devil's advocate, sort of :)). But I still fail to see how having KDE3 in the OBS instead of on the media would help in any way wrt support. Sure, it would make room on the CD/DVD, but as of the maintenance of a "dead" KDE3 pulling resources away from fixing/enhancing KDE4... ? I'd have a few questions to our KDE team: - - Is there any defined upstream EOL for KDE3 maintenance at this point ? - - Would the KDE3 in the OBS repos not be maintained in any way ? Except upstream patches and new releases I guess... ? - - How would that be different from KDE3 being on the media (+ in OSS) ? - - And from above: if KDE4 is removed from the media, would a minimal KDE3 runtime environment (shlibs, kdeinit3 ?) be included nevertheless, for running KDE3 apps ? cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::23+24 Feb 2008, Brussels, http://fosdem.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIwNCVr3NMWliFcXcRAigWAKCJJW7y8mKVLykoIWp9Cu3KUe6tXACgsJ5s aNFIEYrq+U6jwcv4elw7ZxI= =z9+H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Michael Loeffler wrote:

Moin, On Friday 05 September 2008, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

MH wrote:

...

I was directed to this mailing by a forum member (whom I thought was a principle member) as a place to post user's thoughts on KDE3/KDE4 and the future of openSUSE. I'm just a user, not a developer, and I may be out of place here but I'll put in my two cents worth and then leave:

Thanks for your feedback. Any input is welcome, which is why this thread was started in the first place :)

Yes, thank you all for the feedback. We've been listening thoroughly and again we've seen a discussion with many pros and cons literally on all possibilities we have.

What to do? We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media. I'm using "try" as we're facing space issues but I'm confident that we solve them in a manner acceptable for all. We probably need to reduce the KDE3 dekstop to accomplish that.

Why not put KDE4 on a separate CD as an *addition* to the DVD? The 11.1 installation process could be modified to check to see which Desktop system a user wants installed and if KDE4 is selected then KDE4 files will be installed after the rest of the main system is installed. Alternatively, since very few people use Gnome, put Gnome on the CD and have the *full* KDE3 with (crippled) KDE4 on the DVD. KDE4 is at the centre of this whole debate so *it* should be *"reduced"* and *NOT* KDE3 which is fully functional and stable. Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 5:45 AM, Michael Loeffler wrote:

What to do? We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media. I'm using "try" as we're facing space issues but I'm confident that we solve them in a manner acceptable for all. We probably need to reduce the KDE3 dekstop to accomplish that. On the space issue cthiel is our man going forward. He's travelling and will be back in the office next week and can then tell us what's to be done to get KDE3 in a usable way on the media.

Why not do 2 DVDs? One that is KDE3 centered and one that is KDE4 centered? Give the users the choice at the download time. State what the differences are: KDE4 - The next generation of KDE that IS the future of openSUSE. It is not 100% feature complete, but it is a usable Desktop Environment. KDE3 - Stable, Complete version of KDE. No longer being actively developed, but it is fully supported with this release. Have all the other desktops on both DVDs. The KDE3 DVD wouldn't be that hard to setup since KDE3 is basically at a standstill for development. That would allow you guys to fully do KDE4 on the installation media. As for the liveCDs, we had a community built version for 11.0. Let's get together and get one together for 11.1 that will either be HOSTED on the opensuse mirrors, or at least LINKED to the download site.

We think this way we address most concerns and offering another step for thea good transition to KDE4. BTW: I just received the results of the survey we had online July/August. Concerning KDE usage it says: KDE3 38.5% KDE4 29.8%

That still shows that almost 1/2 of openSUSE's user base is still on KDE3 and that KDE4, while growing, is still the minority. Forcing the move to KDE4 at this time would be a bad decision. A full heads up about the fact that KDE3 will be moved off the install media for 11.2 and possibly out of the repositories would be a good thing to have stated in the 11.1 release notes and on the download pages as well. I'd really like to be able to support KDE4. But, I, and many others, have had to disagree with the direction that the developers took to get it out there. Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed here unlike Fedora 9's fiasco about dropping KDE3 entirely. KDE4 IS getting there, but it still has a ways to go IMO. One last request. PLEASE add in some kind of easy to use eye-candy meter like we had back in SuSE 7.x and 8.x. While that one was designed because of low end systems, there are many of us who don't care for all the new whiz bang bling and just want a usable desktop with little fuss. And, there are still some of us using low end systems. I have 11.0 running on a P3/450 with 256MB RAM and it is fine. My main laptops are a P3/700/384MB and a P3/1Ghz/256MB. Thanx. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 05 September 2008, Michael Loeffler wrote:

Moin, Hi,

On Friday 05 September 2008, Pascal Bleser wrote: --snip-- What to do? We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media. I'm using "try" as we're facing space issues but I'm confident that we solve them in a manner acceptable for all. We probably need to reduce the KDE3 dekstop to accomplish that. On the space issue cthiel is our man going forward. He's travelling and will be back in the office next week and can then tell us what's to be done to get KDE3 in a usable way on the media. Uups, 2 things I've forgotten to tell. We think this way we address most concerns and offering another step for thea good transition to KDE4. And stop shipping KDE3 with openSUSE 11.2. So 11.2 would come with KDE3 only. We of course support everybody who wants to offer and maintain KDE3 for longer. BTW: I just received the results of the survey we had online July/August. Concerning KDE usage it says: KDE3 38.5% KDE4 29.8% The gap to 100% is Gnome and other dekstops

M

And yes, the survey results will be published asap. I just wanna write up some comments and comparisions to the last one.

Best + have a lot of fun! Michael

...

...

Personally, I agree 100% with the post at the end of the thread below. If both KDE3 and KDE4 cannot be maintained as user install options, then I would prefer to stick with KDE3 at least until KDE4.2. KDE4.1 is still not ready for prime time in my opinion. I've been testing 4.1 on a virtual machine and there are simply too many major applications missing (K3b, Kaffeine, Amarok) and still too many useability features that either don't work (icon resizing) or have yet to be implemented (panel hiding). There are still stability issues as well. I had one crash that corrupted my VM image.

I don't think that missing applications is an issue. I would believe that the plan for the "no KDE3" option would be to keep the KDE3 flavours of applications that have not been ported to KDE4 (or aren't stable enough) yet, e.g. ship the KDE3 k3b "with KDE4". That would also mean that the KDE3 runtime libraries have to be shipped with 11.1 in any case, but I would assume that this is the plan in any case.

...

KDE3 is very stable, fully functional, user friendly, and good looking. It wouldn't bother me to keep it as my primary desktop for at least another year.

Yeah, that's my feeling too. But I'm afraid that it isn't really giving a solution for 11.1 either. We can't simply disregard the argumentation of our KDE team, push the burden on them and then whine later if KDE4 development isn't going quickly enough (yes, I know, I'm somehow contradicting myself... playing the devil's advocate, sort of :)).

But I still fail to see how having KDE3 in the OBS instead of on the media would help in any way wrt support. Sure, it would make room on the CD/DVD, but as of the maintenance of a "dead" KDE3 pulling resources away from fixing/enhancing KDE4... ?

I'd have a few questions to our KDE team:

- Is there any defined upstream EOL for KDE3 maintenance at this point ?

- Would the KDE3 in the OBS repos not be maintained in any way ? Except upstream patches and new releases I guess... ?

- How would that be different from KDE3 being on the media (+ in OSS) ?

- And from above: if KDE4 is removed from the media, would a minimal KDE3 runtime environment (shlibs, kdeinit3 ?) be included nevertheless, for running KDE3 apps ?

cheers

-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote: [snip]

I think that Michael and the KDE team have found a reasonable and healthy compromise for the KDE transition and 11.1. We have a lot of groups to think of here -- the upstream developers who have their project represented in openSUSE, the developers who have to integrate the projects into openSUSE, and the users who have strong feelings one way or the other about which versions of software they're going to be asked to use. It's impossible to perfectly satisfy everyone involved, but I think we've reached a really good solution for 11.1.

Ah.....that's nice. What is it?! Thanks, Fred -- Linux is an old Latin word meaning, "I don't have to support your Windows anymore." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2008-09-01 at 21:43 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:

I "vote" solution a) - only kde 4.1.x in the distro.

For the reasons already given by michl on behalf of the internal team, plus:

* The experienced users whining, will still be whining about different behaviour, missing pet fringe feature or the pain of reconfiguring certain things even when 4.2, 4.3 or 4.4 is out anyway. There'll be a painful migration sometime - better sooner than later. * If we get new users to use KDE3 on 11.1, they'll have the trouble of migrating from 3->4 on 11.2. * KDE4 is the future - there's no way around it. We should put all our effort in making the future as bright as possible instead of clinging to the past, waiting hoping for someone else to do the work for us. * Kubuntu, Mandriva and Fedora all do the same or similar.

There are some cases where there's a valid _need_ (not just lazyness or conservatism) for KDE3 due to some of the missing functionality or the bugs - to them we'll have to say: "Stay on 11.0/3.5 for another release". But those cases are few, and getting fewer every day.

I vote solution A with Martin, and agree with his observations. If you need KDE 3.5, you can use openSUSE 11.0, and you'll continue to recieve security updates until around June 2010. And if you still "need" KDE 3.5 at that point, that's something that needs to be discussed with the KDE guys. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy - openSUSE Member Public Mail: Meet Bob Barr - Libertarian for President - http://www.BobBarr2008.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 08:07 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

If we are serious about removing 3.5.x, then we need to wait for 4.2. Anything else is a bad idea and will come back to bite us badly. Is it really neccessary to push 11.1 out and then have 4.2 be released not long after? Delays are common in software, and no one will tink any less if that happens, and most will be more appriciative if it does.

...

From the openSUSE Factory mailinglist on March 7th, 2008: "KDE 4.1 will be released over one month after openSUSE 11.0 So haven´t you thought yet to release it with KDE 4.1?It would be just one month later."

The grass is always greener on the other side. Now folks are complaining that openSUSE won't delay for KDE 4.2. Actually, it's kinda funny to see this conversation occur over again.

I wasn't able to help out with 11.0 until late, so I missed that one. However, in this case since it's a major part of the system, I still think it would be better to wait. Besides, what if the release date gets pushed back anyway? If it gets pushed back for any other reason, then it would make sense to do 4.2/beta in parallel with 4.1 since the team seems to back port a lot of stuff anyway. I dunno, I'm not a programmer, so I don't know how complex these issues are. I'm just the guy who is gonna be left behind if some people manage to get their way and have 3.5.x dropped. I don't think that is the attitude of the devs because from what Michael said above, it seems that they are willing to keep both systems for now and probably drop 3.5.x in 11.2. We'll have to see I guess. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Larry Stotler wrote:

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 08:07 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:

...

If we are serious about removing 3.5.x, then we need to wait for 4.2. Anything else is a bad idea and will come back to bite us badly. Is it really neccessary to push 11.1 out and then have 4.2 be released not long after? Delays are common in software, and no one will tink any less if that happens, and most will be more appriciative if it does. From the openSUSE Factory mailinglist on March 7th, 2008: "KDE 4.1 will be released over one month after openSUSE 11.0 So haven´t you thought yet to release it with KDE 4.1?It would be just one month later."

The grass is always greener on the other side. Now folks are complaining that openSUSE won't delay for KDE 4.2. Actually, it's kinda funny to see this conversation occur over again.

I wasn't able to help out with 11.0 until late, so I missed that one. However, in this case since it's a major part of the system, I still think it would be better to wait. Besides, what if the release date

You know, a Linux distribution release is a snapshot in time of a few thousands of FOSS projects. We just have to decide on release dates and stick with them, because you'll always have a major part of the system that's about to make a major release right after the release date. If it isn't KDE, it could be GNOME, OpenOffice, X.org, GCC, the kernel, Xen, etc etc etc...

gets pushed back anyway? If it gets pushed back for any other reason, then it would make sense to do 4.2/beta in parallel with 4.1 since the team seems to back port a lot of stuff anyway. I dunno, I'm not a programmer, so I don't know how complex these issues are.

It's actually work to integrate a KDE release into the distribution, it's not just triggering a build and voilà, it's there. Furthermore, the whole point about openSUSE releases and feature freezes is that the packages get tested by our vast community of beta testers. If, say, the release is delayed and KDE 4.2 is released in the mean time, and our packagers actually find the time to package 4.2 properly to go into 11.1, it will be totally untested. If at all, then a release of something (like KDE) must be available before 11.1 beta 1 in order to be tested properly before 11.1 GM. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- I took the green pill _\_v FOSDEM::23+24 Feb 2008, Brussels, http://fosdem.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIwk9Zr3NMWliFcXcRAoWsAJ0bXY05BY8qesAdKjUl0OqbU42h4ACfS8zi pKks6FhCcf8Lf/7TOlEi5aw= =aNaT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 05 September 2008 11:35:51 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

...  Besides, what if the release date gets pushed back anyway?  If it gets pushed back for any other reason, then it would make sense to do 4.2/beta in parallel with 4.1 since the team seems to back port a lot of stuff anyway. ...

Larry, It will not happen, as you always have something that is not yet finished, but it will be soon. If release is postponed for KDE4, than why not for kernel, GNOME, Xfce etc, etc, and that would mean the release day will never come. The openSUSE 11.1 will be snapshot of current status of OSS application on a given day that was possible to convince to play nicely. Besides, it is proposed to include KDE3 applications to fill in for missing or buggy KDE4 counterparts. That means some basic of KDE3 will be actually included. One of things that will be missing is unwanted interaction between KDE3 and KDE4 desktops. Looking on the lists, many reported "KDE4 problems" are just that. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 5:51 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

It will not happen, as you always have something that is not yet finished, but it will be soon. If release is postponed for KDE4, than why not for kernel, GNOME, Xfce etc, etc, and that would mean the release day will never come.

Yeah, that hapopened when they forced rug and libzypp into 10.1 Bte3 or 4.....and we saw how much of a disasater that was. They released a system with a broken package manager that wouldnt' even update itself. So, it's not like a major change has ever been authorized before after the feature freeze. As for always waiting for something unfinished, yes, that is the case. However, KDE is basically the largest part of openSUSE, with Gnome probably being second. So, in that case, I would think that it would make more sense to synchronize a release schedule with KDE4 since it is such a huge project and it has underwent such major changes.

The openSUSE 11.1 will be snapshot of current status of OSS application on a given day that was possible to convince to play nicely.

I realize that. I had asked about firefox3 back before 11.0 came out. My question is whether or not FF3 was a pushed update for everyone, or did you have to have the Mozilla buld server as a repo to get 3.0 final. While I set up my repos with that and got the 3.0 final, how did it go for the rest of the users, expecially the new ones? Same thing with KDE4. I got 4.1 because it was part of my repos, but most users(probably 80%) will still have 4.04 that came with 11.0. Since it's so much more problematic to update a major component like that after the distro is released, then a small delay, which is common in most projects anyway, makes sense to me. Again, I'm not a programmer, and not in charge of any development projects, so I don't know what all that entails. But, IMO, KDE4 is a big enough reason for a wait where something like openoffice wouldn't be. There should be a way to give people a notification that a newer version of the software is avalable and ask whether they want to upgrade for smaller projects like openofice and firefox. IF a prerelease/beta version is included because there wasn't time to wait.

Besides, it is proposed to include KDE3 applications to fill in for missing or buggy KDE4 counterparts. That means some basic of KDE3 will be actually included. One of things that will be missing is unwanted interaction between KDE3 and KDE4 desktops. Looking on the lists, many reported "KDE4 problems" are just that.

Yep, which is why the default install pushes KDE4 apps on a KDE3 desktop when the KDE3 apps are better and more stable. That's problem more so than the other way. I had to manually deselect so may KDE4 apps to get KDE3 back to it's default state. It would be one thing if it was an app that KDE3 didn't have, but to repleace a KDE3 app with a KDE4 app for no real reason makes no sense to me. . I realize that KDE4 is "the wave of the future", especially because while there has been many people calling for a "fork", no one has stepped up to do so. However, I just feel that the KDE team could have handled this changeover in a better way. Hopefully, everyone learns from this and these kind of changes are better planned for next time. That's the strength of this community. When mistakes are make, it's a learning process. Except in cases like XFree and their "small, insignificant license change" that cause the fork to X.org and no one really making use of Xfree anymore. Besides, everyone was aksed for their opinion. And, we will always have disagreement. But at least the openSUSE KDE team has listened to what we have said and s trying. It's no longer a question of whether 11.1 will have KDE3, it's a question of how and what they will have to cut to build the iso images. That's why I proposed having a KDE3 and a KDE4 image. Give people the choice. Personally, I'd like to see CD based install isos, but that has been removed other than the liveCDs. And, having installed from the KDE4 liveCD and trying to remove KDE4 and install KDE3 and not being able to, I think that was the biggest problem with 11.0's release. Thankfully, someone stepped up and helped us out and those CD's are great. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 06 September 2008 06:48:51 am Martin Schlander wrote:

Fredag 05 september 2008 19:57:36 skrev Fred A. Miller:

...

Michael Loeffler wrote:

...

We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media.

Ok......thanks! I think all we need, ASSUMING KDE 4.2 is a FULL COMPLETE release for KDE 3.5, is to have 3.5 included with the next release of openSUSE. It can be dropped after that.

It's still unknown when 11.2 is released - it might even have KDE 4.3 - if it's released in the fall of 2009 - which I consider likely given that 2009 is SLE year which will absorb much developer time.

But I can tell you right now with 100% certainty that neither KDE 4.2 nor 4.3 will be identical with KDE 3.5. And it's still extremely vague what you guys define as "full complete", to say the least.

Full complete means "all functions that I use", which is not well defined even by very organized people. When I see "FULL, COMPLETE, FINISHED" after so many requests by KDE guys to name missing features and getting the same answer time and again, points to guys with to much time on their hands and wish to goof around with those "Linux zealots". Someone mentioned "can't hide taskbar". I used it once to check how it works, so, while I know what it is, I will not miss it a bit. On the other side, ability to size and position taskbar in any direction with all icons in it, is for me feature that was missing since ever, and now I have it. Cry for old good hide etc, seems to be just "I didn't tried to find what's new, but I don't like it".

Besides a couple of missing features and a few bugs, are only part of what people complain about regarding KDE4 - backwards compatibility of settings and simply being "different" are just as prominent complaints - and those "problems" are not exactly likely to diminish over time imho.

Differences will only grow. Once people realize that old settings were just the best approximation of graphical desktop, because computers at that time couldn't handle what they can today, requests for new type of features will multiply and number of differences will grow.

Furthermore, openSUSE 11.1 may attract hordes of these types of users from other distros, since it'll be the only major distro still shipping KDE3 on the media at that time (well, along with Debian Lenny). Therefore I think it's likely we'll still see a substantial segment of users demanding KDE3 at 11.2 time, maybe even bigger than now ;-)

So I think we should make an effort to communicate very clearly that 11.1 will be the very last release officially supporting KDE3 - and that attaching yourself deeper into a legacy desktop with no future, is probably not a very good idea for most people in the long run.

I agree. That would be a good reason to start limiting KDE3 support now, and make clear that there will be no KDE3 on 11.2 media, only in OBS for those that can't switch to KDE4 so fast. Although openSUSE is not a commercial version, by now it didn't left users in the cold, but it is time to move on. Other distributions force change because Linux can't stay with GUI developed for hardware capabilities from 2000. Presentations, or eyecandies, move from specialized applications to desktop, and if OS can't provide tools it will stay away from mainstream. Some use cases can live, even today, with a command line and everything between, but most of the users will appreciate smoother feeling of the new desktop once application developers get used to new tools and start using them more then now. Now is rush to move applications from 3 to 4, but then it will start time of GUI improvements. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 16:34, Richard wrote:

PS, I am aware that occasionally I use CAPS in my posts. I do that for emphasis, not for yelling. I have seen perfectly valid posts poo-poo'd primarily by proponents of the opposite opinion (and often without, or incapbable of a, better response) because there were caps used by the poster. Caps are a valid punctuation. If the entire post is all caps then that might be construed as shouting, but captilizing words or phrases should be construed as emphasis and should not subject the poster to ridicule. IMO If you want to emphasize something, use underscores eg _emphasize_ . The use of caps will always be construed as shouting while other methods exist to do this.

ne... -- Registered Linux User # 125653 (http://counter.li.org) Now accepting personal mail for GMail invites. Princess Margaret - "I have as much privacy as a goldfish in a bowl." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/09/06 11:09 (GMT-0400) Rajko M. apparently typed:

Someone mentioned "can't hide taskbar". I used it once to check how it works, so, while I know what it is, I will not miss it a bit.

You've never heard of the tyranny of the majority? That's when most people want something a certain way, and use their power to make it impossible for the minority to have it their way, even though there's no good reason both can't have their way. I can't work without hide taskbar. When I need a fullscreen screenshot of a web browser and its content, as I often do (e.g. https://qa.mandriva.com/attachment.cgi?id=10781 ), there has to be a way for me to get rid of the kicker that doesn't involve logging out or rebooting first. There are many other little things most people don't do that 3.5 offers, but that makes their absence no less a problem for those who do rely on them, and the reason why so many say KDE4 is unusably feature incomplete. Newer is definitely not the same thing as better when it comes to KDE. -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Bryen wrote:

In everything that you've said, one question remains unclear. Why do users who prefer KDE 3.5 have to update to 11.1? 11.0 will still be supported for up to 1 1/2 years after the release of 11.1. Furthermore, it is still unclear that KDE 4.2 will be the be-all-end-all that finally fixes the issues that users perceive thus far with 4.x.

Ok, then why should I bother to test the 11.0 Alpha/Betas? v11.0 came with a much improved package system. v10.2 was worlds better than 10.1(especially considering that the kernel broke support for the old world macs. Couldn't even install it on them). Why should anyone upgrade? But why should anyone be told they shouldn't upgrade? Look, it's a moot point. They have decided to include 3.5.x in 11.1. The question was how to do it.

I'm not a KDE user, and thus can't speak to the issues of what is good/bad about KDE 4.x, but I have watched the debate over time and saw people say that 4.0 was going to be the killer Desktop. Then it came out and people were disappointed. So everyone said, "Can't wait until 4.1 comes out, that's going to fix all the problems." Yet some people still were disappointed. Now I'm hearing "4.2 will solve it."

That's because KDE4 was pushed out before it was even remotely feature complete. The reasoning was so that other devs of KDE based products could start porting to the new version since it's a break from the past. KDE4 is basically a complete re-write of KDE. The devs have been saying that KDE 4.2 should be a mostly feature complete desktop. Techinally, 4.1 should be 4.0 Beta. Which means that while is is usable as a desktop, it's not fully tested and working. Honestly, the openSUSE KDE devs did a good job on the KDE4 in 11.0, but it's still a long way from usable for some. My biggest complaint is that it's supposed to be so much faster, but it was slower. Maybe it's because I use older hardware and don't have a good 3d card and dual core chip in every machine. But, even on my Celeron DC that's overclocked, it is still slower. Of course, it's only running an X300, so maybe I just need to spend money to upgrade to be able to "enjoy" the KDE4 experience. On that note, I could care less about all the new Bling effects that KDE4 offers. Whoop-de-do. My first impression was a groan because I thought it was my roommate's laptop that runs Vista, it's so Vista like in so many ways.

The thing is, we choose to be on openSUSE because we want some bleeding edge. Otherwise, we'd be using SLED/SLES. But how do we test new releases, whether it be KDE, GNOME, XFCE, etc. if we don't have the opportunity to test regularly in real-world situations? For those who want to stay with tried and true, stick with the older version of openSUSE. For those who want to take the plunge, go with the latest and debatably-greatest, and continue to provide feedback through various mechanisms so that when we finally achieve true stability and functionality, those who could not afford to be on the bleeding edge will be able to make the transition.

True, but SUSE has always had a reputation for stability and the 10.1 release hurt that. Further, there were a lot more KDE4 bugs than most people felt should have been left. I dunno. I wasn't involved with 11.0's build process until late, and I just used KDE3. Shoot, I still use ReiserFS for all my partitions. It's much faster at recovery than ext3 and much easier. Fedora removed KDE3 and lost a good many users because of that. Their version of KDE4 was nowhere near as good as openSUSE's from what I have heard. I dunno. I was running Fedora 8 until recently on one box, but after hearing about 9, I just installed openSUSE on that machine. While I don't always use the latest and greatest, it's nice to have that option. Besides, everyone was asked their opinion. I gave mine.

The point of whether KDE is widely used is irrelevant. If you want to make that point, then definitely the same argument would have to be applied to kernel releases, since obviously EVERYONE uses the kernel. :-) The greater point is that we're a community willing to take some risks in order to further the effectiveness of each distro release while providing some stability for older releases.

The poll showed that 40% of openSUSE users(who responded) used KDE3. So, we should just lose that many users because some people don't want KDE3 anymore because KDE4 is the "newer, better model"?

If you feel you cannot take the plunge into KDE 4.x at this time, stick with 11.0 or 10.3, which will be supported for another 13 months from now. By which time, perhaps KDE 4.x will finally be at a satisfactory level for you.

Who knows if it will ever be there. I dunno. I've been using KDE since SuSE v5.3, and this is the first total change that I have seen. For me, KDE worked. It didn't need replacing just to add all kinds of features I could care less about. That's what happens in retail. Gotta discontinue to drop what I like because there's a newer model that doesn't do what I need or what I like anymore.....

But to prevent distro releases solely based on one component stands in the way of progress, for which I believe openSUSE stands for.

10.1 was delayed when rug and libzypp were rammed down the distro's throat. That was a VERY questionable action that resulted in a release with a broken package system. Then we were told there wasn't going to be a remaster of it, and then there was 2 months before 10.2 was released. That's what I call a bad decision. Waiting to work out bugs and add in an improved(hopefully) version is what I call smart decision making. But, I', not in charge, so all I can do is offer my opinion. It may be taken, it may not be. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Felix Miata [09-06-08 13:39]:

I can't work without hide taskbar. When I need a fullscreen screenshot of a web browser and its content, as I often do (e.g. https://qa.mandriva.com/attachment.cgi?id=10781 ), there has to be a way for me to get rid of the kicker that doesn't involve logging out or rebooting first.

killall kicker do your work <alt><f2>"kicker" that was hard! -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Fred Miller [09-06-08 12:12]:

...

For the last time, I, nor the majority are against 4.*!!! It's going to be, I hope, the best ever in time. But, it ISN'T now because (drum roll, once again) it ISN'T configurable like 3.5 nor has the features of 3.5. For 4.* to really succeed, it MUST have both.

Guess it's time for you do contribute a little to the openSUSE distribution, Fred. Instead of saying that it must have what it has, define what is missing and report it. If you cannot configure the taskbar the way you believe it shoud, file a bugzilla report and learn the *new* way or you will have provided a "bug" report to be acted upon. The way you are presently "complaining", a mild representation, NOTHING IS BEING ACCOMPLISHED but *noise* on the list and bad feelings.

From what I can tell, ALL has been reported. Supposedly, the inability to hide the task bar will be taken care of.......it's not yet.

If you take your car to the mechanic and tell him that it doesn't drive the way it used to, what is he supposed to do. The programmers are *not* going to pull your teeth to find what features you are missing. YOU are going to have to report them or, as you have said they stated, do without!

Give me a break Patrick. As someone else pointed out, they above all devs. know what the features are in 3.5.....we need them all, as has been stated for so long.

Please everyone, all the vague statements, complaints and generalities accomplish nothing but raised tempers and frustrations. We work together or fail!

We have been offered, probable offer, a concession for 11.1, BUT THE HANDWRITING IS ON THE WALL. 11.2 will be kde4!

Take it and run with it and MAKE IT WORK.

Yes, I have been shouting, but the needless banter is frustrating and accomplishing less than nothing.

It sounds like they don't want to implement all the features of 3.5, but so far, no one's been honest about that, or not that I've read anyway. Did I miss something? When asked what features we want, the answer normally is ALL of what we have in 3.5. That's an informative answer. It's not a "nasty" response....just being factual. We don't want to loose anything. Fred -- Linux is an old Latin word meaning, "I don't have to support your Windows anymore." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller wrote: [pruned]

For the last time, I, nor the majority are against 4.*!!! It's going to be, I hope, the best ever in time. But, it ISN'T now because (drum roll, once again) it ISN'T configurable like 3.5 nor has the features of 3.5. For 4.* to really succeed, it MUST have both.

Fred Spot on, Fred!

Well said. Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 06 September 2008 11:10:38 am Fred A. Miller wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Saturday 06 September 2008 06:48:51 am Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Fredag 05 september 2008 19:57:36 skrev Fred A. Miller:

...

Michael Loeffler wrote:

...

We'll try to put again both KDEs on the media.

Ok......thanks! I think all we need, ASSUMING KDE 4.2 is a FULL COMPLETE release for KDE 3.5, is to have 3.5 included with the next release of openSUSE. It can be dropped after that.

It's still unknown when 11.2 is released - it might even have KDE 4.3 - if it's released in the fall of 2009 - which I consider likely given that 2009 is SLE year which will absorb much developer time.

But I can tell you right now with 100% certainty that neither KDE 4.2 nor 4.3 will be identical with KDE 3.5. And it's still extremely vague what you guys define as "full complete", to say the least.

Full complete means "all functions that I use", which is not well defined even by very organized people.

What is so difficult about knowing what is current in 3.5?

If it is easy to list, I would assume that you will do that long time ago instead of repeating ALL, SAME etc, blanket listings that someone else has to fill with actual feature names. If I would be so passionate defender of good old KDE{1,2,3} I would long time ago have a list.

Simply have the SAME configurations available in 4.*.

Icon size settings came in mind as first candidate to remove first, but it is ported. With desktop that can show SVG (vector) graphic it is useless. How many more KDE3 options is useless too? That is why guys that want to create new desktop, without ballast of features (and settings) that were seldom used, asking time and again what is missing.

...

When I see "FULL, COMPLETE, FINISHED" after so many requests by KDE guys to name missing features and getting the same answer time and again, points to guys with to much time on their hands and wish to goof around with those "Linux zealots".

You don't live in the real world like some of us do.

It seems quite opposite. For instance, see below: ---- Start here ------------------------------------------------

...

Someone mentioned "can't hide taskbar". I used it once to check how it works, so, while I know what it is, I will not miss it a bit.

You sound like a "Softie," Rajko! Just because you don't use it doesn't mean it isn't need by others! On a letter box type monitor, it's not as big a deal, but on a wide screen, most seen with laptops, you can recover some realestate that is desired by a LOT of users. It's one of the reasons that I removed 4.* from ALL clients that I had put it on...the complaints were 100% for ALL laptop users!

...

On the other side, ability to size and position taskbar in any direction with all icons in it, is for me feature that was missing since ever, and now I have it. Cry for old good hide etc, seems to be just "I didn't tried to find what's new, but I don't like it".

It's a good feature for some people...I don't need it, but that doesn't mean someone else doesn't. ---- End here ------------------------------------------------

What you see? I can tell you what I see, a guy that is so focused on current soultion that can't see feature that will improve overall experience of his users, and it is not so original solution, as Vista has right side of the wide screens occupied with something that resembles on taskbar. Move (mumble) taskbar on side, instead to learn users to hide/unhide it all the time. See for instance this: http://en.opensuse.org/Image:KDE4-4.1-oxygen-sample-custom.jpeg Whole height is yours, and no hiding/showing.

...

...

Besides a couple of missing features and a few bugs, are only part of what people complain about regarding KDE4 - backwards compatibility of settings and simply being "different" are just as prominent complaints - and those "problems" are not exactly likely to diminish over time imho.

Differences will only grow. Once people realize that old settings were just the best approximation of graphical desktop, because computers at that time couldn't handle what they can today, requests for new type of features will multiply and number of differences will grow.

Oh really? The "old features" and "old configurabiltiy" don't have squat to do with new hardware or graphic desktop. It has EVERYTHING to do with have a desktop setup to work the way a USER wants it to....NOT a developer.

The GUI in KDE4 has new capabilities, and it can work fine in a new way without old features. Why should one port "all" when in lesser then year no one will ask for many them. For instance, new icons can be SVG graphic. Resizable at will, so what good will bring module to set sizes. It is already ported, but once users get used that icons can be any size they want, on case by case basis, allowing them to sort desktop in a new way, it will be just a piece of bloat. See Thunderbird icon on above image. It is fixed size image, not vector graphic. It fits fine in old concepts, but it is not the best in a new one. And so on. Even more important, is that what users want is important to developers because they are nice guys, but they have no obligation to the users. It is just the opposite. They gave us their work for free. We owe them. What would you say if you give money to somebody and instead of thank you, hear that you are stingy, banknote was old, and whatnot. ...

...

I agree. That would be a good reason to start limiting KDE3 support now, and make clear that there will be no KDE3 on 11.2 media, only in OBS for those that can't switch to KDE4 so fast. ...

No, that isn't a good idea....limited in 11.1. You only "move on" when you can take everyone else with you, unless you're anxious to reduce market share.

What market share? Others are closing doors big time. With openSUSE KDE3 users have at least Build Service as an option to be at newest stand, with others there will be no options, but to stay with old release. Other are not afraid to loose market share, why should be openSUSE worried when it is offering more.

...

Other distributions force change because Linux can't stay with GUI developed for hardware capabilities from 2000. Presentations, or eyecandies, move from specialized applications to desktop, and if OS can't provide tools it will stay away from mainstream. Some use cases can live, even today, with a command line and everything between, but most of the users will appreciate smoother feeling of the new desktop once application developers get used to new tools and start using them more then now. Now is rush to move applications from 3 to 4, but then it will start time of GUI improvements.

For the last time, I, nor the majority are against 4.*!!! It's going to be, I hope, the best ever in time. But, it ISN'T now because (drum roll, once again) it ISN'T configurable like 3.5 nor has the features of 3.5. For 4.* to really succeed, it MUST have both.

Fred, you want to wait until it has "all" the features and configuration. How it will happen? When KDE labs find right features that fit new layout and capabilities, than develop and test all software. :-) Good idea, but it is FOSS, lab is our skin. I'm not delighted with some KDE4 perks, but I'm trying to help transition and be over with it. Procrastinating visit to dentist will not remove a pain. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/09/07 00:10 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan apparently typed:

What are you going to do when it is time for 11.2 and there is no KDE3 and no other distro offers it? Go back to os/2? That was wonderful in it's time until IBM stepped on it's d**k, but would not fit the bill today, much less so than KDE4.

Yet another assumption. Some people who have work to do have enough sense to stick with something with which they are familiar that works. I don't need to "go back to OS/2", because I never left it. OS/2 still isn't dead, though it does have a "new" distributor (Serenity Systems/Mensys) and name (eComStation). It doesn't insist I have less than 15 legacy partitions per SATA HD, and still can do everything its previous version could do (in this case 10-15 years ago), unlike KDE4. Just in case you don't have Mutt configured to show the sender's UA, and those whose mail app can't be so configured, mine is: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; U; Warp 4.5; en-US; rv:1.8.1.16) Gecko/20080715 SeaMonkey/1.1.11 (PmW) -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun September 7 2008 3:18:14 am Felix Miata wrote:

On 2008/09/06 21:34 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan apparently typed:

...

* Felix Miata [09-06-08 13:39]:

...

...

I can't work without hide taskbar. When I need a fullscreen screenshot of a web browser and its content, as I often do (e.g. https://qa.mandriva.com/attachment.cgi?id=10781 ), there has to be a way for me to get rid of the kicker that doesn't involve logging out or rebooting first.

...

killall kicker

...

do your work

...

<alt><f2>"kicker"

...

that was hard!

For you. I'm working in a stable and mature GUI and expect to to do such things with a mouse click or two without giving anything much thought, and probably won't remember anything about Alt-F2 if and when KDE4 gets shoved down my throat without working panel collapse.

Do you have a workaround for https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152761 too? Until (most) things like these are fixed, KDE4 is nothing more than beta-ware. I expect beta-ware in Factory, not a purchased DVD distro release.

Don't hold your breath...   This is a direct quote from one of the KDE developers taken directly from their buglist regarding that very bug and to me is indicative of the whole attitude about providing the functionality we lose in 4.x in order to gain all the new wonderous vector graphics resizeable icons we all need instead of an ability to do useful work that we used to have..... Quote:

Robert Knight 2008-08-26 12:36:39

...

How much are we talking about here to fix this thing? In truth, not a lot of work to get KDE 3.5.x functionality back again. I did plan to do this for KDE 4.1 but it didn't happen because I was originally hoping to introduce improved restore of sessions since I always considered that just restoring the program and path was almost useless. Evidently a lot of users don't feel the same way. But please don't wait for it to happen. The Konsole code is fairly clean and this would be a good job for a new developer. If you haven't worked on KDE code before and you'd like to make a contribution then please get in touch. Seasoned developers are also welcome to apply.

EndQuote. In one breath he says it isn't a lot of work to get the FUNCTIONALITY back again, and in the next, he says DON'T WAIT.   Our esteemed moderator said IBM shot itself in it's d**k regarding OS/2.   That is probably true.   They did it when they teamed up with M$.   Now, it appears that KDE is shooting itself in the same appendage and expecting US to tell us where it hurts! Richard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun September 7 2008 12:10:54 am Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

or not that I've read anyway. Did I miss something? When asked what features we want, the answer normally is ALL of what we have in 3.5.

KDE4 is a *new* product. What you are asking is for the developers to sit down and compare the two and duplicate everything. But everything is different and *some* things you do not want, are not usable in the new product, etc.

Patrick, for the first time I actually understand and agree with you entirely. KDE 4.x *IS* a new product, and it is NOT KDE. When Mozilla radically changed its' browser, they didn't call it Netscape 99 or even Mozilla vN.x, they called it Firefox. When KDE developers completely create a new product, that's great and is progress and even desireable, but it certainly is NOT Version 4.x of KDE 3.5.x which was pretty much a culmination of a progression of related improvements to a basic, functional and still very useful product. This 'new' product is simply mis-named. It is not KDE v4.x, it is v0.x of a 'new' product and should have been advertised as such and when v1.0 of this as yet unnamed 'new' product is released, people may accept it as willingly as many now accept Firefox vs Netscape. Shoot, Firefox runs on Windoze, maybe this 'new' desktop can replace Vista on that platform....but I digress. In the meantime, in the same spirit as continuing to provide Gnome and other desktops, continue to provide KDE, the real one, even if development is no longer enthusiastically provided by the KDE developers. When the 'new' product, whatever it is called, (LDE for example eg, Linux Desktop Environment)) matures with all its' new vector graphics and infinately scalable icons, and hopefully functional replacements for the KDE functions, people will demand that KDE stop being distributed and taking up space on the distro media in preference to LDE which is so much preferred because it does everything KDE could do and it is prettier too. But stop calling it KDE, it isn't, it is a 'new' product and you said it first and I rarely argue with the moderator of a forum :) Richard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 September 2008 02:18:14 am Felix Miata wrote:

On 2008/09/06 21:34 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan apparently typed:

...

* Felix Miata [09-06-08 13:39]:

...

I can't work without hide taskbar. When I need a fullscreen screenshot of a web browser and its content, as I often do (e.g. https://qa.mandriva.com/attachment.cgi?id=10781 ), there has to be a way for me to get rid of the kicker that doesn't involve logging out or rebooting first.

killall kicker

do your work

<alt><f2>"kicker"

that was hard!

For you. I'm working in a stable and mature GUI

That is KDE3 ;-)

and expect to to do such things with a mouse click or two without giving anything much thought, and probably won't remember anything about Alt-F2 if and when KDE4 gets shoved down my throat without working panel collapse.

Do you have a workaround for https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=152761 too? Until (most) things like these are fixed, KDE4 is nothing more than beta-ware. I expect beta-ware in Factory, not a purchased DVD distro release.

It is betaware for you because console program is not yet copy of old one, but you are in a group of users that should know how to install and start KDE3 Konsole, if that is urgent need. Don't worry for new users not able to use 5-6 consoles at a time. Most of them would not touch it with a 6' stick. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Felix Miata [09-07-08 03:40]:

On 2008/09/07 00:10 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan apparently typed:

No, not apparently, *did*!

Some people who have work to do have enough sense to stick with something with which they are familiar that works. I don't need to "go back to OS/2", because I never left it. OS/2 still isn't dead, though it does have a "new" distributor (Serenity Systems/Mensys) and name (eComStation). It doesn't insist I have less than 15 legacy partitions per SATA HD, and still can do everything its previous version could do (in this case 10-15 years ago), unlike KDE4.

And you still start your automobile with a crank? :^)

Just in case you don't have Mutt configured to show the sender's UA, and those whose mail app can't be so configured, mine is: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; U; Warp 4.5; en-US; rv:1.8.1.16) Gecko/20080715 SeaMonkey/1.1.11 (PmW)

Organization: less than infinite User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; U; Warp 4.5; en-US; rv:1.8.1.16) Gecko/20080715 SeaMonkey/1.1.11 (PmW)

...

killall kicker

...

do your work

...

<alt><f2>"kicker"

...

that was hard!

For you. I'm working in a stable and mature GUI

mature != ancient

and expect to to do such things with a mouse click or two without giving anything much thought, and probably won't remember anything about Alt-F2 if

maybe the developers will decide that Alt-F2 should be dropped and you won't have to worry about that functionality being missing from KDE4 since you wouldn't remember it anyway.

and when KDE4 gets shoved down my throat without working panel collapse.

then add two scripts with meaningful names, one killing the kicker and one starting the kicker to your system and link them to two icons in a prominent location on your desktop so that you will not forget where they are and what they do and try really hard to remember how to pointy-clicky on them with your rodent. That satisfies the requirements you have stated, provided you have the capacity to "remember" them. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 22:36 -0400, Larry Stotler wrote:

Eye candy isn't the end all and be-all. Remember, 80% of users only use 20% of the features. Way too much effort is wasted to try to please that other 20% tho. I could care less about wobbly windows, and rotating desktops, and all that other bling.

I'm going off-topic on this reply. I'm sorry, but I feel it has to be said. I respect your choice to not use Compiz, but not the words you've stated. Compiz is actually a very valuable tool for people with disabilities and extends the functionality of their desktop. Labeling Compiz as simply bling and eye-candy is an affront to the continuous hard work of the Compiz developers, and diminishes the 20% who don't fit into your 80% scope of definition of a user and is anathema to the concept of community as a whole. Going back on topic, I would really urge you to eliminate throwing out numbers and percentages to state your arguments and instead focus on pointing out what works for you and what doesn't. Those that are providing specifics in this thread seem to gain better traction in getting their point across, rather than those who are simply hiding behind numbers clearly without even knowing who the users are in those numbers. Walk a mile (or kilometer, depending on where you live) in their shoes before you marginalize anyone... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 06 September 2008 09:36:37 pm Larry Stotler wrote:

On 9/6/08, Rajko M. wrote:

...

Once people realize that old settings were just the best approximation of graphical desktop, because computers at that time couldn't handle what they can today, requests for new type of features will multiply and number of differences will grow.

So, what, now we have to have a brand new computer to be able to use KDE4?

No. It can be 3-4 years old. See this. KDE3 and KDE4 running at the same time: ~> free total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 1930024 1862204 67820 0 88704 779576 -/+ buffers/cache: 993924 936100 Swap: 4104556 260 4104296 KDE3 only: ~> free total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 1930024 1476488 453536 0 89004 779272 -/+ buffers/cache: 608212 1321812 Swap: 4104556 152 4104404 Who is better? It is 64 bit, so 32 will easily fit in 256 MB.

My older P3 based laptops that have "ancient" and "old" video chipsets should no longer be supported because of these new features that users seems to have been "demanding"?

First, users are demanding better graphics, because they have it elsewhere. Second, it is one click in settings to turn on or off eye candies. I have some enabled, some not. It is still time that some of them kill desktop, but that is not unexpected for Factory.

If that's the case, then maybe we should just change the minimum requirements to a 2Ghz or faster machine and no graphics card less than 2 years old?

Which is majority of computers in use anyway. I have older pieces, but I can't say that they are used. Sometimes to see how older hardware takes new OS, but that is all. After installation they continue to collect dust, as they do most of the time. ...

...

Other distributions force change because Linux can't stay with GUI developed for hardware capabilities from 2000. Presentations, or eyecandies, move from specialized applications to desktop, and if OS can't provide tools it will stay away from mainstream. ...

Eye candy isn't the end all and be-all. Remember, 80% of users only use 20% of the features. Way too much effort is wasted to try to please that other 20% tho. ...

You are right in percentage of features, but it is not that simple. The FOSS is based on efforts that satisfy individual needs or interests of developers. If that is important for 100% of users, like for kernel, or 1% for development tools, that doesn't matter to FOSS developer. Most of the software is developed using 100% of the available time for something that will be usefull for him, and published just in case that someone else may need it. The KDE4 project attempts to concert effort of developers and users to produce something without ballast of the past, but it seems that many users are distracted with somewhat clumsy initial message. From developers prospective, after months of ground work on libraries they very happy. That part they did without user interaction, all coding and testing was on them and that was reflected in optimistic tone in the announcement of new KDE4. When they have seen reactions of users, they corrected statements, but some, not very friendly and very loud users, discarded that as bad excuse.

SuSE used to have the seperate professional version. Maybe we need to go back to that. Have a user oriented versions with all the bling and have a power user version for those who are just interested in getting their work done.

Now your memory plays with you. Pro version was just a bigger set of packages and anyone could download what was missing on normal version. The difference in price was just to cover for 1 extra book and more CDs in pro version. ...

KDE4 seems to be a lot of bling and if it needs a brand new Nvidia 8800GT or ATI Radeon 4850, then it's not for me.

A built in GeForce 6100, or cheap FX 5200 suffice. That is what I use. Some time ago I learned that $20 graphic card doesn't cut well, usually it is just to little RAM on card and that keeps GPU busy to redraw something that didn't change and could be just swapped, but $50 will the same GPU and more RAM will do all I need.

Again, these are my views and my opinions. I don't expect everyone to agree. That's what these discussions are for - to help the devs found out where the balance is.

Sure. My comments are only just that, MNSHO. :-) -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* "Fred A. Miller" [2008-09-07 12:15]:

unless NOBama gets elected and then I won't be able to afford to

Please stop political propaganda on opensuse-*! Bernhard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

MH wrote:

I'm a long time user of KDE--ever since the 2.x release. I'm also a long time user of SuSE before they became SUSE and openSUSE. I've also used a wide variety of other distros, but most of them only briefly. I started with RH 6.x and stayed with them until 8.x. When they stopped supporting KDE, I left.

I've NEVER liked GNOME. And though it's not near as ugly as it used to be, I still find it confining. What I like about KDE most is it's configurability and it's stability.

I've played around with KDE4.0 (which was early beta at best IMO) and 4.1 (still beta). These are the things I don't like about it:

Unable to hide the panel (I've loved this feature since it was first implemented in Windows. Reduces clutter, increases screen area);

Unable to locate "launcher" icons on the panel where they will stay;

"Launcher" icons radomly change location on the panel even at "default" locations;

Unable to resize icons;

Unable to keep icons in designated areas of the desktop without constantly locking and unlocking them (with 3.x you could "align to grid" and be done with it);

Unable to assign different backgrounds to virtual desktops to make them easy to identify;

Lack of stability. KDE4.1 has crashed on me repeatedly;

Lack of key native applications. Yes, the 3.x series variants can be installed and run, but not without a great deal of extra libraries and assorted cruft (isn't removing cruft and "bloat" one of the design goals of the 4.x series?)

Maybe it's possible to do some of the things I've listed above, but I couldn't manage after several hours of experimentation. In any case, I will not move to KDE4.x until the above items are fixed/implemented, or made as easy to use as they are in the 3.x series. If the 3.x series is dropped without addressing the above issues in 4.x (11.1), I will stay with 11.0 until another distro offers a better option. As a user I just don't see any advance in the 4.x series at all (at this point) other than a slightly more consistent look.

THANKS!! You've listed some of the things I find missing and are "must have" as well!! Fred -- "Security" in Windows comes from patching a sieve. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Bryen wrote:

I'm going off-topic on this reply. I'm sorry, but I feel it has to be said. I respect your choice to not use Compiz, but not the words you've stated. Compiz is actually a very valuable tool for people with disabilities and extends the functionality of their desktop.

You can't really can't count accessibility into numbers because they are in their own group. And, if compiz helps them out, then I support that part of it whileheartedly.

Labeling Compiz as simply bling and eye-candy is an affront to the continuous hard work of the Compiz developers, and diminishes the 20% who don't fit into your 80% scope of definition of a user and is anathema to the concept of community as a whole.

To me, Compiz is just that: eye-candy. I don't need it. Now, for those that want it, hey, that's their choice. My issue is that too much development went into that stuff, where too little went into bringing in stuff that should have already been there. IF KDE4 can become a robust, stable, and efficient system, then I will use it. What I have seen of it was slow, glitzy, and nothing i really care for. I won't get into such things like the look and feel of programs like KMagghong. That was a huge change. But, that happens. At some point, unless KDE3 ends up with a development team, I will have to move to it if I want to continue to use and support KDE. That may or may not happen. I dunno. Still undecided on that one.

Going back on topic, I would really urge you to eliminate throwing out numbers and percentages to state your arguments and instead focus on pointing out what works for you and what doesn't. Those that are providing specifics in this thread seem to gain better traction in getting their point across, rather than those who are simply hiding behind numbers clearly without even knowing who the users are in those numbers. Walk a mile (or kilometer, depending on where you live) in their shoes before you marginalize anyone...

The 80/20 split is a well known issue in software. As for using KDE4, I just haven't had the time to actually delve into it and see it I can change it to what I want/need and to find out why it was so slow. Part of it is probably because I am using older hardware like this Thinkpad A22p P3/1Ghz with an ATI Mobility M3(basically a Rage128). I'm running at 1600x1200(native resolution) at 24bit color, and that takes up most of the video ram available(only have 8MB), so extras like compiz just don't work. I have to drop to 16bit color to run Penguin Planet Racer, but the when I play video, i have to switch back to 24bit or it looks fuzzy(first time i have seen that issue - might be a driver problem). Until recently, I was using a Thinkpad 390X P3/500 that had a Neomagic 256 chip with 2.5MB VRAM. That played movies just fine as well. But KDE4 was really slow. My desktop Celeron Dual Core 3.2Ghz(overclocked) is running an ATI X300, and KDE4 was slower on it than KDE3. So, maybe the devs should try walking a mile in the shoes of people who are satisified with their lower end systems as well. It does work both ways. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

No. It can be 3-4 years old. See this.

KDE3 and KDE4 running at the same time: ~> free total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 1930024 1862204 67820 0 88704 779576 -/+ buffers/cache: 993924 936100 Swap: 4104556 260 4104296

KDE3 only: ~> free total used free shared buffers cached Mem: 1930024 1476488 453536 0 89004 779272 -/+ buffers/cache: 608212 1321812 Swap: 4104556 152 4104404

Who is better? It is 64 bit, so 32 will easily fit in 256 MB.

That looks strange. The numbers are identical, which makes no sense. How can you run BOTH systems at the same time with the same mem usage?

First, users are demanding better graphics, because they have it elsewhere. Second, it is one click in settings to turn on or off eye candies. I have some enabled, some not. It is still time that some of them kill desktop, but that is not unexpected for Factory.

Where is this at and is it only in factory? I haven't had time to try factory yet.

Which is majority of computers in use anyway. I have older pieces, but I can't say that they are used. Sometimes to see how older hardware takes new OS, but that is all. After installation they continue to collect dust, as they do most of the time.

My 2 Thinkpads that are P3 based get daily usage. My fastest system is basically a re-encoder and web broswer.

Now your memory plays with you. Pro version was just a bigger set of packages and anyone could download what was missing on normal version. The difference in price was just to cover for 1 extra book and more CDs in pro version.

IF you had a reliable connection. I didn't until 2004. I had dial up for a long time, and I could't tie up my line that long for that. Whenever I had both versions, I noticed that the personal had less features and was usually slightly faster. I dunno. I have copies of 7.3 and 8.1 peronal(actually have 8,1 on an old laptop).

A built in GeForce 6100, or cheap FX 5200 suffice. That is what I use. Some time ago I learned that $20 graphic card doesn't cut well, usually it is just to little RAM on card and that keeps GPU busy to redraw something that didn't change and could be just swapped, but $50 will the same GPU and more RAM will do all I need.

See, to me I could care less about spending $$ on a gpu. Only reason I have an X300 in my desktop is lack of onboard video and that was the cheapest PCIe card I could find at the time. I rarely play games(normally PPRacer or Neverball), so I'm not into spending money on that.

Sure. My comments are only just that, MNSHO. :-)

That's what makes life so fun..... --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan:

* Felix Miata [09-07-08 03:40]:

...

and when KDE4 gets shoved down my throat without working panel collapse.

then add two scripts with meaningful names, one killing the kicker and one starting the kicker to your system and link them to two icons in a prominent location on your desktop so that you will not forget where they are and what they do and try really hard to remember how to pointy-clicky on them with your rodent. That satisfies the requirements you have stated, provided you have the capacity to "remember" them.

I love this thread. I mean it. KDE4 threads on factory are one wicked place to remember how screwed up gui's still are. And how they screw us up, too. Wolfgang --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:03 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

When you look what is really used, you look at "-/+ buffers/cache:" row. I should actually remove all programs, but console. The difference will be smaller. It is actually hard without more effort to measure exact memory usage, but even above shows that KDE4 is not a resource hog.

Why not show something like usage with KDE3 running Firefox and then KDE4 running Firefox(open to home page)? That would be a good comparision.

Factory packages compiled for openSUSE 11.0. That can be part of the problem with crashes, but I have no idea how to provide any useful bug report for desktop effects plugins. By now I have no idea what my action triggers crash, to provide at least description how to recreate crash.

I think that's the same as the KDE4 build service. If so, I already have that one added. My desktop updated to KDE 4.1 when I had to re-install Ktorrent. I haven't had time to look at it, and the machine is down right now for some work I have to do to it. I may try to add it in to this Thinkpad at some point. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/09/07 09:12 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan composed:

Felix Miata composed:

...

On 2008/09/07 00:10 (GMT-0400) Patrick Shanahan apparently typed:

No, not apparently, *did*!

Until your above statement, not likely anyone on this list _knew_ you compose your email by typing. Not everyone is physically capable of composing email using fingers.

And you still start your automobile with a crank? :^)

No, but it has a manual transmission, which permits push/pull starting in the event of failure of the conventional starting system, getting home without waiting or paying for a tow, and does not produce bonus global warming slipping by design. Newer != better!

mature != ancient

Ancient != irrelevant. Ancient != obsolete. Ancient != useless.

then add two scripts with meaningful names, one killing the kicker and one starting the kicker to your system and link them to two icons in a prominent location on your desktop so that you will not forget where they are and what they do and try really hard to remember how to pointy-clicky on them with your rodent.

Without Kicker, there is no "prominent location" on my Linux desktops. Rarely is more than a tiny bit of desktop ever visible here, and I wouldn't normally think to start any app by locating some desktop object under a bunch of open app windows. The job of the desktop on my systems is to determine how much space is available for open applications, and provide a convenient location for a tool for opening new ones and switching among open ones. At least on OS/2, objects on the desktop are automatically shadowed to WarpCentre, so that they can be reached just as easily as objects formally installed in its main app menu system. Note too the above plural. I expect all my many Linux desktops to be equivalent without heroic workarounds for missing features in "new & improved" replacements for things that used to just work.

That satisfies the requirements you have stated, provided you have the capacity to "remember" them.

If you read a bit further back, and think, you should see my requirement is really the KDE3 status quo, not some kludge workaround for an absent KDE4/beta-ware function. The KDE3 Kicker hiding button works well, and thus needs neither improvement nor replacement. -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-07 at 09:12 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

per SATA HD, and still can do everything its previous version could do (in this case 10-15 years ago), unlike KDE4.

And you still start your automobile with a crank? :^)

Last time I checked, which was about 20 years ago, Citroen cars could be started that way :-P I couldn't, though: I'm not strong enough to hand turn a modern engine. Anyway, the reason that crank start is not featured is because you can not start a car with an electronic injection system if the battery is dead, so pushing the car or using the crank does not work. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIxF0qtTMYHG2NR9URAicHAKCQAnLDUIoTJPq7Vr+w0cOBgxYlFgCcCfOH CRltBUQ0iIWrMstVax4ahDc= =4xOK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-09-08 at 01:05 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Sun, 7 Sep 2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Do you really think that threats like this or "my company will not use openSUSE anymore" add anything to the discussion or will change anything? If a client warns me that he will not buy my product if I implement a certain change, I would take that very seriously.

Sure thing. In the case of openSUSE it's more "use" than "buy", though. ;-)

Rrrright :-) Although sles was also mentioned somewhere, you can modify the above: if a certain change of a free/gratis product would generate less users wanting it, I wold worry; unless I made that product for my own use, and the rest of the users were thus meaningless for me ;-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIxGaRtTMYHG2NR9URAgkWAJ9uj9616+p4pFtSM3g9alMscA6wVQCfS7rD CxVhfhhp/FD1LaMVDJFMf5w= =Kgcm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2008-09-06 at 11:34 -0400, Richard wrote:

PS, I am aware that occasionally I use CAPS in my posts. I do that for emphasis, not for yelling. I have seen perfectly valid posts poo-poo'd primarily by proponents of the opposite opinion (and often without, or incapbable of a, better response) because there were caps used by the poster. Caps are a valid punctuation. If the entire post is all caps then that might be construed as shouting, but captilizing words or phrases should be construed as emphasis and should not subject the poster to ridicule. IMO

You may intend caps as punctuation, but the consensus is that capitalization in email means shouting, and will be interpreted as shouting even if you do not agree. A human language works by majority consensus, you can not change it on your own to your liking. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIxHegtTMYHG2NR9URAqCXAJ9iPOLhuNh2NeJTZpW4LcsTylFbIgCdEVLV DhV0wv5RLRC6m2MKHOPIqZo= =AP4Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote: