On Wednesday 22 October 2008 03:21:02 pm James Knott wrote:

Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 13:10 +0100, Dave Howorth wrote:

...

Actually I think Europe is better. It's not a question of sueing for damages, it's enforcing rights under equal-opportunity employment laws. In the UK one would use the Disability Discrimination Act, I believe. But I can't believe the TUV certification given to LiMux won't already require compliance with applicable legislation.

Even so, the TUV certification is valid for the current version of LiMux... which contains KDE 3.5... so what's the point? Nobody, but really NOBODY forces you to go to openSUSE 11.2 (which won't have kde 3 shipped anymore)...

There will come a day when 11.1 is no longer supported, which means no security fixes. Seems to me that would cause many to upgrade to a newer version.

-- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org>

Why the time 11.1 is done, KDE4 will be comparable to KDE 3.5. This will most likely be openSUSE 12.x. I would imagine 12.x would have kde 4.4 or 4.3.5 or something along those lines.. I imagine that 4.3 would be fully comparable (ie transparent panels, scaling system tray icons, mature plasma, etc etc and even more etc). There may also be a chance that they will do a Build Service repository with KDE 3 for openSUSE 11.2, but who knows? Ben -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:

In fact, I don't want KDE 4.x to be comparable to KDE 3.x, what is the point?

That says it all, right there. Most revealing statement posted on this whole thread. Right up there with "KDE doesn't need users". -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:

2008/10/25 John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com>:

...

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:

...

In fact, I don't want KDE 4.x to be comparable to KDE 3.x, what is the point?

That says it all, right there. Most revealing statement posted on this whole thread. Right up there with "KDE doesn't need users".

What does that reveal? You should know that I am not a KDE dev, I am an end user like yourself. I just file bugs.

If the guy who has undertaken to file bug reports does not want KDE4 to be "comparable" to the single most robust, complete, flexible, configurable, extensible desktop manager the Linux world has ever known then that explains why we have no chance of ever seeing KDE4 approach the quality of KDE3 or of ever convincing the DEVs that they made a serious error.

What do you tell people who want Opensuse to be comparable to Windows?

What the hell has that got do do with anything?

So far as KDE is concerned, KDE 4.x does not yet replace KDE 3.x, and it will not in the near future.

And as long as you, and the DEVs insist it should not "be comparable" it will never be able to replace KDE3.

Complain that Suse is dropping support for KDE 3.5, but that is a different issue. They might as well be dropping it for XFCE, Gnome, or Flushbox instead of KDE 4.x, as non of them are designed by their authors as replacements for KDE 3.x.

Again, you wander off on tangents here. You half way admit that KDE4 was designed to be a replacement of KDE3, yet you insist it should not be compared to KDE3. Most Disgruntled KDE3 users would be happy is KDE4 devs had decided to start with KDE3 as the base, rather than Ground Zero. Only people who don't compare the two would think KDE4 is anyway near what KDE 3 was. Gnome users migrating to KDE4 are probably impressed. Its like hiring a PhD for a critical task, sending him out to a seminar to extend his skill set, but instead he decides to go back to the Sixth grade so he can wear all the cool new threads. -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2008-10-27 at 14:52 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: ...

You give me too much credit. You can file bugs, too, and have your issues resolved as well. Instead of complaining on a mailing list that KDE devs likely do not read. As for KDE 4 not being comparable to KDE 3, I would not say that a BMW 7 series is comparable to a Toyota Corolla, yet both are quality products that perform similar features.

I'd prefer comparing BMW 7 to BMW 8; I'd expect KDE 4 to be similar, but better, to KDE 3 - otherwise, call it LEF 1 :-P - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkFwKsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WJNQCfQGCMvDVHS1CbDfqjntw4Cp6f on0An0klb8yNdxR68kR+lI61Qg7vHbD8 =gKFq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2008-10-27 at 15:25 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

I'd prefer comparing BMW 7 to BMW 8; I'd expect KDE 4 to be similar, but better, to KDE 3 - otherwise, call it LEF 1 :-P

The BMW 8 is the BMW 7 minus two doors. So, I suppose that it is fair to say that KDE 4 currently has two less doors than KDE 3!

Argh. As I don't know BMWs myself, I chose the wrong model. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkFw/0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Vj4QCeKkvxzYeaquKS6YeKvtMz5kKk +78An2y7kxZ1zRxO/UyzgkG7B7KSiiu2 =Vz6u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin wrote:

Trust me,

The Z8 is something very, very nice and very, very fast and very, very far beyond my pay grade....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog_Z8 ;-) -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 5:52 AM, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:

If KDE 3 was the reliable, robust and practical Corolla, then the KDE devs are building the sleek (plasma), fast (Qt4), and dependable KDE 4.

Its the other way around. They had an elegant platform, with everything working. They decided to substitute a child dressed in fine flashy clothes. Its pretty, but its still a child. Yet opensuse is pushing it forward like it is ready to take on an Adult role. Form over substance.

You mention that you want KDE 4 to be comparable to KDE 3. That is not it's goal. It's goal is to be better than KDE 3.

Its failed miserably. By the way... How can you use terms like "better" if you reject the ability to compare?

No, this is relevant because KDE 4 is not a replacement for KDE 3.

That is a bit of revisionist reporting. KDE4 was ALWAYS intended as a replacement for KDE3. Only in the last year or so has this myth of it being a totally unrelated product appeared, and mostly in response to people starting to point out the obvious shortcomings when it was declared ready for prime time.

Could you please use a car analogy? I only understand car analogies.

KDE4 is next year's model of KDE3. It hardly seems reasonable to release it with a fresh coat of fade paint but no back seats, no instruments in the dash, missing door handles and a mock up of a radio. -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote: [pruned]

...

Could you please use a car analogy? I only understand car analogies.

KDE4 is next year's model of KDE3. It hardly seems reasonable to release it with a fresh coat of fade paint but no back seats, no instruments in the dash, missing door handles and a mock up of a radio.

I like it. Well said, Sir! Except that you forgot to mention that for that "chic-look" there is a racoon tail attached to the antenna of the mock-up radio. Ciao. -- If you go through life with your head in the sand, all people will see is an arse. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 27 October 2008 05:15:21 pm John Andersen wrote:

...

You mention that you want KDE 4 to be comparable to KDE 3. That is not it's goal. It's goal is to be better than KDE 3.

Its failed miserably. By the way...  How can you use terms like "better" if you reject the ability to compare?

Stepping into the fray... If KDE 4 is to be "better" than KDE 3 then there has to be the ability to do everything the previous version did in some fashion or another. For example, we were previously stuck with having to type CAT or ls to get a list of files in a folder. Then a gui was developed and we were presented with a list of those files. Later the gui was advanced and we were presented with a list of those files, and an icon showing what those files should be able to do.

...

No, this is relevant because KDE 4 is not a replacement for KDE 3.

That is a bit of revisionist reporting. KDE4 was ALWAYS intended as a replacement for KDE3.

Yeah, I would expect the 4.x version to be a direct replacement for the 3.x version of anything. If it isn't a replacement, then don't call it KDE 4. Call it YAGD (Yet Another GUI Desktop) or something completely different. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller wrote:

Kai Ponte wrote:

...

On Monday 27 October 2008 05:15:21 pm John Andersen wrote:

...

...

You mention that you want KDE 4 to be comparable to KDE 3. That is not it's goal. It's goal is to be better than KDE 3.

Its failed miserably. By the way... How can you use terms like "better" if you reject the ability to compare?

Stepping into the fray...

If KDE 4 is to be "better" than KDE 3 then there has to be the ability to do everything the previous version did in some fashion or another.

QUITE right, Kai!! However, the devs don't want to hear that. It's like they want to force a simplistic 'Bloze type GUI down everyone's throat. We we don't have the control over the desktop EQUAL to 3.5, then it's NOT a viable desktop, IMHO. Either they get their heads of of the sand and do what's needed to get ALL of the 3.5 functionality in 4.*, or it's NOT going to be used by most current KDE users. I'm prepared to switch ALL clients and my own boxen to Gnome, as I don't think the devs. really give a flip as to what we think. And, no....I'm not going to make a list of what's missing. Those who've worked on the code should KNOW what all the features of 3.5 are!!

Fred

Fred, weren't there suggestions, some months ago, that there is a (deliberate) push for openSUSE/SLED users to use Gnome rather than KDE? Ciao. -- If you go through life with your head in the sand, all people will see is an arse. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen said the following on 10/28/2008 01:58 AM:

On SLED you have to go out of your way to get KDE to work at all. It comes GNOME.

That's why I gave up on Mandriva! All its admin functions, while 'lightweight' in that they are perl scripts rather than compiled code, rely on the Gnome libraries. I'd run Mandrake/Mandriva happily for over 5 years and then along comes '09 with KDE4, and a lot of things I'd taken for granted were broken. Not just the KDE4 stuff but handling of usb devices, mouse. Mandriva's big hook with '09 was that it boots fast. Yes it does, blindingly so. But I turn my machines off maybe once a week when I clean my study, so what benefit is that to me? I can understand the benefits of more efficient libraries & so on, but the description of the mock-up car just rings too true. For me, the things like comparing the old and new panels & available widgets & control over them highlights this deficiency. If KDE4 is meant to be a new conceptualization of the interface, then perhaps it should come with a better user's guide. Another car analogy: The old 1957/58 Ford Edsel is an example of a failure. Whether you view it as an engineering or a marketing disaster, it certainly tried introducing too many new things and was poorly presented. Does this seem like KDE4? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edsel#The_wrong_car_at_the_wrong_time http://www.failuremag.com/arch_history_edsel.html "Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it" http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1657867_16577... The 50 worst cars of all time - #12, the Ford Edsel Or if we are still talking BMW ... http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1658544_16585... To close, I'd like to refer to an old book. I bought a crate of these and used to hand them out to my staff back in the days when I was a SW Development PM. I still have one copy. "Programming as if People Mattered" Nathaniel S Borenstein ISBN 0-691-08752-0 http://www.amazon.com/Programming-People-Mattered-Engineering-Delusions/dp/0... Does this mean I'm going to dump KDE4, try out another distribution? Well, its not quite like investing a new car that's a lemon, but the reality is that like so many of us, I have a life and don't have time to do the fiddly bits like the step-and-repeat of trying out distributions. My computer is a tool, not a toy, and I'm not a magazine reviewer who gets paid to try out distributions. But the issue just isn't the code, its the communication. If there was better communication FROM the designers and implemented as to what this was and why they had decide to do things, for example the new panels &widgets (and what happened to the old ones and why we can't stack the pager and box unless we grow the panel to an unreasonable height ... stuff like that. But guys, lets keep this reasonable and logical. The developers aren't going to respond is all we do is make emotionally laden complaints. The "missing features list" is a good start! -- There are still places where people think that the function of the media is to supply information -- Donn Rottenburg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 27 October 2008 10:58:50 pm John Andersen wrote:

...

Fred, weren't there suggestions, some months ago, that there is a (deliberate) push for openSUSE/SLED users to use Gnome rather than KDE?

Ciao.

On SLED you have to go out of your way to get KDE to work at all. It comes GNOME.

I have a hard time believing SLED is viable, given the ease of use and polish of Ubuntu. Dell's Ubuntu machines even come with the mpeg tax paid so that you have integrated Audio/Visual apps running without having to install a bunch of software just to play a movie. Of course SLED is aimed a the enterprise, but I have a hard time imagining an "enterprise" running many sled boxes.  I've never actually seen a single copy installed in Government or private industry.

I think we have a few hundred SLED boxes and laptops in LA County. Not my department specifically but various other ones. This doesn't include the SLES systems running standalone and inside Z OS machines. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote: [snip]

...

QUITE right, Kai!! However, the devs don't want to hear that. It's like they want to force a simplistic 'Bloze type GUI down everyone's throat. We we don't have the control over the desktop EQUAL to 3.5, then it's NOT a viable desktop, IMHO. Either they get their heads of of the sand and do what's needed to get ALL of the 3.5 functionality in 4.*, or it's NOT going to be used by most current KDE users. I'm prepared to switch ALL clients and my own boxen to Gnome, as I don't think the devs. really give a flip as to what we think. And, no....I'm not going to make a list of what's missing. Those who've worked on the code should KNOW what all the features of 3.5 are!!

Fred

Fred, weren't there suggestions, some months ago, that there is a (deliberate) push for openSUSE/SLED users to use Gnome rather than KDE?

'Nice to know you remembered what I did. ;) Fred -- "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly -- and for the same reason." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Scott Newton <scottn@ihug.co.nz> writes:

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 18:15:13 Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

QUITE right, Kai!! However, the devs don't want to hear that. It's like they want to force a simplistic 'Bloze type GUI down everyone's throat.

Actually it's closer to the Mac than Vista or XP.

...

We we don't have the control over the desktop EQUAL to 3.5, then it's NOT a viable desktop, IMHO. Either they get their heads of of the sand and do what's needed to get ALL of the 3.5 functionality in 4.*, or it's NOT going to be used by most current KDE users.

Well so far there are 6 items on the list http://en.opensuse.org/What_features_is_KDE4_missing_when_compared_to_KDE3

A lot of issues that people complained about have been resolved, see the link at the bottom of the page. The KDE developers have indeed fixed many of these. Looking at the six mentioned items most are so vague that nobody can do anything with them right now, so please be really specific.

They are not going to add items they don't get requests for because if no one requests a particular item then it probably isn't being used and they don't have to worry about it. Everyone uses their desktops differently. Some people love icons the desktop, other people hate it. That's why there are now far more options for how you control your desktop than there were in KDE3. The way you do it is different but that's a learning curve you have to go through when you switch to something new (like XP to Vista).

Office 2007 is very different to Office 2003. For some people think that was a bad move, others love it. Overall though it's called progress and that's not something everyone agrees on. If you don't like KDE4 fine, move to Gnome. It is after all your choice.

Being pragmatic KDE4 is the future of KDE whether you like it or not so either work with it to get the features you want or move to something else. It really is that simple.

Scott, I agree, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 08:32:10 Clayton wrote:

...

A lot of issues that people complained about have been resolved, see the link at the bottom of the page. The KDE developers have indeed fixed many of these.

Having been one of the people using KDE4 since the 4.0 release, I have to say that the changes up to 4.1.70 or whatever we are at now are quite dramatic. KDE4 has gone from a barely usable desktop to one that works quite well and still retains that KDE feel that I grew up with. There are still bits not right, but it's getting there.

There are a great many 'I hate KDE 4' messages on many lists, and has been said here, most are so vague that you can't answer them logically. When people have brought up a specific point I have often found that it was something that can be done in KDE 4, but not in the same way. I have tried on-list and off-list telling people how to get the functionality they crave, but usually there is simply no response - on or off-list. I can only conclude that they are too lazy to learn another way of doing something. Interestingly, some of the changes that annoyed me at first are now not only second-nature to me, but actually feel more productive than the old ways. There are, of course, one or two things that I'm still waiting to see, but they are icing on the cake. Everything I need to be productive is in place (though ports of some packages are still in progress and KDE 3 versions currently in use). If any user truly wants to understand KDE 4, let him ask specific questions. Those of us that have successfully made the change will be only too glad to help. A very new resource is the wiki at http://userbase.kde.org. It has only been in existence since Mid-September, and still needs contributions. In particular, if you have been answering questions on lists, please add hints and tips to the various pages. Thanks Anne

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 17:45:12 Felix Miata wrote:

On 2008/10/28 09:47 (GMT) Anne Wilson composed:

...

I can only conclude that they are too lazy to learn another way of doing something.

Then try thinking again, outside the box, and come up with another conclusion. Lazy is not the word I would use. Some people have a life to get on with. Many of them have found KDE3 to be the best environment to keep that life nicely moving.

There is nothing to stop them deciding to stay with KDE3, if that is what they want to do. Yes, they may have to switch distros, but they can change to one which guarantees support for the next 5 years or so. If they change to KDE4 that is their decision, and should expect that it will need some new learning. The situation is exactly the same as for those who have used XP in Classic mode and then change to Vista.

Now picture yourself as someone from that group who has only used openSUSE for a couple of years, a graduate from WinXP, post-W2K, who has never seen Gnome or Fedora or Ubuntu or Mandriva. Here's a picture of what might happen if they were to "upgrade" to 11.1 were it like Fedora, Mandriva & Ubuntu in having dropped KDE3 entirely:

http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/kde412-desktop.html

So?

Note I made that using Fedora 10 (release cutoff was last night, images made after updating to that state). I have purposely not installed KDE4 on any of my several Factory boxes.

What I see there, and it's only a sample of v3 vs. v4 differences, is a whole bunch of paradigm shifts. Little works the way I expect, if I can even figure out how to do what I want at all.

Then ask.

There are too many differences, too many things missing,

such as?

too many unfamiliar things, compared to KDE3.

That it is unfamiliar I do accept, yet it surprised me how quickly I settled to it.

KDE4 should be uniquely named to differentiate it better from its vastly different predecessor, and for the foreseeable future, full KDE3 development should be continued.

By whom? There are a limited number of people, most with day-jobs, working on KDE. They get to choose what they work on. Those that want to continue development are very welcome to join the team that is still working on KDE3. It's just too easy to say that 'someone should....'.

Yes, they are paradigm shifts. The whole point is that that was never in doubt. It was well-publicised long before KDE4 arrived on the desktop. My point is purely that you have a choice. You can use a distro that gives you KDE3 and will continue to do so for some considerable time, or you can change to KDE4. If you choose to change you must expect to learn some things anew. I do agree that the changes are big enough to feel quite daunting at first, but there are plenty of people around who are more than willing to help by explaining things. My objection is about whiners who make vague statements instead of asking for specific information. IMHO they have little intention of learning anything new, so should simply stay away, going with a KDE3 distro. Anne

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 19:00:53 Felix Miata wrote:

On 2008/10/28 18:42 (GMT) Anne Wilson composed:

...

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 17:45:12 Felix Miata wrote:

...

http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/kde412-desktop.html

So?

15 questions, 0 answers from you. Is that because you couldn't figure it out either?

I saw the graphic. I didn't scroll down far enough to see the questions. The 'hide panel' is one of the few things that are still not available. It's coming, but it's not here yet. Most of those other questions are already answered on http://userbase.kde.org. I don't propose to answer them en masse here.

...

...

What I see there, and it's only a sample of v3 vs. v4 differences, is a whole bunch of paradigm shifts. Little works the way I expect, if I can even figure out how to do what I want at all.

Then ask.

I just did, 15 times. 0 answers.

...

...

There are too many differences, too many things missing,

such as?

You still haven't answered this.

You mean besides the 15 things you didn't answer?

...

...

KDE4 should be uniquely named to differentiate it better from its vastly different predecessor, and for the foreseeable future, full KDE3 development should be continued.

Yes, they are paradigm shifts. The whole point is that that was never in doubt. It was well-publicised long before KDE4 arrived on the desktop.

That's why it needed/needs a whole different name, to distiguish what it really is from what it professes to be. It's much too different to be a legitimate replacement for its namesake. I can't imagine learning how to use it is materially less difficult for a typical KDE3 user than learning how to use Gnome.

Well this is one user that found it so.

...

I do agree that the changes are big enough to feel quite daunting at first, but there are plenty of people around who are more than willing to help by explaining things. My objection is about whiners who make vague statements instead of asking for specific information. IMHO they have little intention of learning anything new, so should simply stay away, going with a KDE3 distro.

I asked. Where are the answers? More importantly, why should so many need ask or complain?

Why should you not need to?

There are too many non-obvious answers needed, too many differences among things that worked so well before "upgrading". People should not need so much to be asking anything just because of an "upgrade". That they do means something's very wrong with the "upgrade".

By your reasoning, gnome is absolute rubbish just because I dislike it and will not use it. Why can't you accept that there is a perfectly good availability of desktop, whether you choose gnome, enlightenment, KDE4 or KDE3 - or any other for that matter. I'm spending many hours a week answering genuine questions and helping get the information onto userbase. I can't make you read it, but don't complain that the information isn't there if you haven't even read it. Anne

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 21:35:25 Felix Miata wrote:

Someone "upgrading" from a well established and nicely working destktop to its ostensible replacement should have few or no questions that _need_ answers prior to being able to get most of his usual work done.

So in your book, 'upgrading' means nothing changes, nothing new, nothing to learn. I'm done with this thread. Nothing new is being said. Nothing is being achieved. Anne

Anne Wilson wrote:

I'm spending many hours a week answering genuine questions and helping get the information onto userbase. I can't make you read it, but don't complain that the information isn't there if you haven't even read it.

And thanks for doing that. Your hard work and many hours documenting an un-intuitive interface, while laudable, seems to me like effort being applied at the wrong end of the problem. I've never actually seen a desktop interface manual for Windows, KDE3, Mac OSX, Gnome, XFCE4, or even Windowmaker. Some how I muddled thru is virtually no time. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anne Wilson wrote:

There are a great many 'I hate KDE 4' messages on many lists, and has been said here, most are so vague that you can't answer them logically. When people have brought up a specific point I have often found that it was something that can be done in KDE 4, but not in the same way. I have tried on-list and off-list telling people how to get the functionality they crave, but usually there is simply no response - on or off-list.

I can only conclude that they are too lazy to learn another way of doing something.

Interestingly, some of the changes that annoyed me at first are now not only second-nature to me, but actually feel more productive than the old ways. There are, of course, one or two things that I'm still waiting to see, but they are icing on the cake. Everything I need to be productive is in place (though ports of some packages are still in progress and KDE 3 versions currently in use).

If any user truly wants to understand KDE 4, let him ask specific questions. Those of us that have successfully made the change will be only too glad to help.

A very new resource is the wiki at http://userbase.kde.org. It has only been in existence since Mid-September, and still needs contributions. In particular, if you have been answering questions on lists, please add hints and tips to the various pages. Thanks

Anne

Hello Anne, A blast from the Mandrake past. I knew you would find your way over to the openSuSE list. Welcome Ah... We had such good times on the Mandrake list in the 7.0-8.0 days before Mandrake went public, stopped listening to its users and made nutty decisions for the distribution and then -- imploded. I still miss civileme's guidance. Let us hope we can have another good long time of this list as well and also hope that openSuSE has the sense to wakeup and not follow Mandy's lead. SuSE/openSuSE really has been a great distro up until the time this nutty decision about KDE4 popped up. The list here is still the best around -- regardless. So welcome aboard Anne, and... I hope you got that little samba problem fixed. -- David C. Rankin, J.D., P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2008/10/28 Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com>:

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 4:23 AM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.de> wrote:

...

...

A lot of issues that people complained about have been resolved, see the link at the bottom of the page. The KDE developers have indeed fixed many of these.

Yes, but again, in what version and the real question is what version of KDe4 are most people running? How many have added the KDE4 buildservice and updated it fully? For those just now getting 11.0 and seeing KDE4.04, are they going to KNOW that a lot of what they feel is missing has been added. That's the problem with pushing KDE4.

Exactly. The problem is with distros (suse included) pushing software that is not yet user-ready. KDE cannot be blamed for that.

If you are active in the community and knowledgeable enough to add the newest updates, then you are probably doing ok. If you aren't, then you get disgusted with something that isn't up to snuff, and come away with a bad taste about it.

With a bad taste of Suse, or a bad taste of KDE 4? (I already know the answer, but I put it in perspective of where the blame should lie).

...

Looking at the six mentioned items most are so vague that nobody can do anything with them right now, so please be really specific.

That's because we were all too busy arguing over it that nobody thought to do something constructive to try to get things to where some of us need it.

Correct. So please add the features that you are missing to that page. You can plainly see that I am maintaining it and filing issues. It cannot get any easier for you than that.

To be honest, maybe there should be remasters of the KDE4 livecds from 11.0 that have some of the newest KDE4 builds. Yes, it means more work, but at least people could then take a look at the changes. And, yes, Beta3 has the newest updates, but how many people want to run a Beta? While it's probably stable(and I will find out if I can ever get a chance to run what I have downloaded.....), it's still a turn off to the majority.

I'm not against KDE4 IF it can deliver. So far, it hasn't, but I'm basing it on my experiences(and limited ones) on older versions....KDE3 just works for me(other than getting rid of the opensuse menu - talk about being like vista) with few mods. Most of those are turning off eye candy amd slightly rearranging the taskbar to remove the extra desktops and add the hide buttons.

I look at the list of "improvements" and see nothing that interests me. But, that's my opinion and my prerogative. Others obviously feel different.

For that same reason my daily driver remains KDE 3.5 which is a stable, maintained desktop with an active community of developers. KDE 3.5.10 was just released some weeks ago and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

"Larry Stotler" <larrystotler@gmail.com> writes:

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 4:23 AM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.de> wrote:

...

...

A lot of issues that people complained about have been resolved, see the link at the bottom of the page. The KDE developers have indeed fixed many of these.

Yes, but again, in what version and the real question is what version of KDe4 are most people running? How many have added the KDE4 buildservice and updated it fully? For those just now getting 11.0 and seeing KDE4.04, are they going to KNOW that a lot of what they feel is missing has been added. That's the problem with pushing KDE4. If you are active in the community and knowledgeable enough to add the newest updates, then you are probably doing ok. If you aren't, then you get disgusted with something that isn't up to snuff, and come away with a bad taste about it.

But that explains also different perspectives. I have to judge today what 11.1 will look like - and not what 11.0 looked like.

...

Looking at the six mentioned items most are so vague that nobody can do anything with them right now, so please be really specific.

That's because we were all too busy arguing over it that nobody thought to do something constructive to try to get things to where some of us need it.

A lot of stuff has been done already, see the referenced page.

To be honest, maybe there should be remasters of the KDE4 livecds from 11.0 that have some of the newest KDE4 builds. Yes, it means more work, but at least people could then take a look at the changes. And, yes, Beta3 has the newest updates, but how many people want to run a Beta? While it's probably stable(and I will find out if I can ever get a chance to run what I have downloaded.....), it's still a turn off to the majority.

The 11.1 beta3 comes with a LiveCD and AFAIK Stephan did a LiveCD with KDE4.1.0 - but since then many work went into it. I would really suggest to use the 11.0 LiveCD - you don't have to install it ;)

I'm not against KDE4 IF it can deliver. So far, it hasn't, but I'm basing it on my experiences(and limited ones) on older versions....KDE3 just works for me(other than getting rid of the opensuse menu - talk about being like vista) with few mods. Most of those are turning off eye candy amd slightly rearranging the taskbar to remove the extra desktops and add the hide buttons.

I look at the list of "improvements" and see nothing that interests me. But, that's my opinion and my prerogative. Others obviously feel different.

Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 01:23:39 am Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

...

Either they get their heads of of the sand and do what's needed to get ALL of  the 3.5 functionality in 4.*, or it's NOT going to be used by most current KDE users.

Well so far there are 6 items on the list http://en.opensuse.org/What_features_is_KDE4_missing_when_compared_to_KDE 3

A lot of issues that people complained about have been resolved, see the link at the bottom of the page.  The KDE developers have indeed fixed many of these.

Looking at the six mentioned items most are so vague that nobody can do anything with them right now, so please be really specific.

Wow, that's a pretty short list! * No "show keyboard status" indicator in KDE4 * Kipi plugins. Nowhere near as good as kde3 * Horizontal alignment of desktop folder icons on desktop * User controlled transparency on panel * System Tray icons that scale down to at least a 24px * KMix change master channel As it is, the last one has a fix listed. I don't see any show-stoppers there. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 06:27:49 am James Knott wrote:

I use KDE because I don't care for Gnome.  As for Office, Microsoft needs new versions, to generate more income.  Linux software can use incremental improvements, because it isn't driven by the need to sell something "new".

Now, we have to find out what size of increment is convenient for the majority. Here is some Start with age of users: - I bet that young people are fine with current KDE3 to 4 step, if they ever tried KDE3, (it looks so boring, like XP) - midage will prefere smaller steps, - and older will do fine with none, but if necessary, than some changes that nobody can actually see. Than computer experience: - new to computer will find everything exciting, screeming more, have you more, - users with some experience will ask not to go that fast, because they just learned old way, and it is obsolete - experienced will be happy if changes are applied after tests and discussions about each of features, so that they have time to switch. *Me: Category: older and experienced KDE: Using KDE3, and play, when there is time, with KDE4, just to be informed when change comes. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen wrote:

2008/10/28 Fred A. Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com>:

...

And, no....I'm not going to make a list of what's missing. Those who've worked on the code should KNOW what all the features of 3.5 are!!

Recoding KDE 3 from scratch is a joke of a proposition. If you want a feature then say what it is. The devs are listening. What would you answer to a poster on this list that said "Suse doesn't work on my computer" while refusing to state what "doesn't work" means? Would you help him?

Why should Basil, me, or anyone else have to list each and every feature in 3.5 when those who are working on 4.* KNOW what the feature set is in 3.5? First, I don't have the time to do that, and 2nd, I shouldn't have to. Fred -- "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly -- and for the same reason." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Scott Newton wrote:

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 17:29:22 Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

Why should Basil, me, or anyone else have to list each and every feature in 3.5 when those who are working on 4.* KNOW what the feature set is in 3.5? First, I don't have the time to do that, and 2nd, I shouldn't have to.

Very simple - because they may not use those features or they may use them rarely. And if they don't use those features and no one says anything, they won't include them because they will assume that no else uses them or misses them. There is no point in re-coding features just to make it exactly like KDE3 if they are never used.

Ah.....so if a programmer doesn't use a given setup feature, for example, then most users don't, eh? 'NOT any logic in that my friend. Interesting, 4.0 was released without the ability to hide the task bar. Work wasn't started on added that until I pursued it. Amazing...a feature of KDE for a LONG time, and VERY much used feature (common sense dictates you gain real estate on the desktop) and it wasn't included in 4.0. No wonder we're missing features. Fred -- "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly -- and for the same reason." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Scott Newton wrote:

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 18:26:34 Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

Ah.....so if a programmer doesn't use a given setup feature, for example, then most users don't, eh? 'NOT any logic in that my friend. Interesting, 4.0 was released without the ability to hide the task bar. Work wasn't started on added that until I pursued it. Amazing...a feature of KDE for a LONG time, and VERY much used feature (common sense dictates you gain real estate on the desktop) and it wasn't included in 4.0. No wonder we're missing features.

Just out of interest I never use. It irritates me no end. Which just goes to prove everyone is different.

Which means what? Isn't this just another backhanded justification of leaving things out? You don't use it, so nobody needs it?

P.S. Please fix your mail settings. Reply to on your emails is giving your address rather than that of the list.

Welcome to OpenSuse mailing list. Nice to see new users show up here. The list is purposely setup this way for replies and bounces to go back to the sender. Its been this way since dirt, and is not likely to change. Fred has been here since the Pleistocene, and he knows how to set up an email package. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Scott Newton wrote:

On Thursday 30 October 2008 06:14:41 John Andersen wrote:

...

Scott Newton wrote:

...

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 18:26:34 Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

Ah.....so if a programmer doesn't use a given setup feature, for example, then most users don't, eh? 'NOT any logic in that my friend. Interesting, 4.0 was released without the ability to hide the task bar. Work wasn't started on added that until I pursued it. Amazing...a feature of KDE for a LONG time, and VERY much used feature (common sense dictates you gain real estate on the desktop) and it wasn't included in 4.0. No wonder we're missing features. Just out of interest I never use. It irritates me no end. Which just goes to prove everyone is different. Which means what?

Isn't this just another backhanded justification of leaving things out? You don't use it, so nobody needs it?

Please actually read what I said. Fred likes to hide his taskbar, I don't . We are all different and we do different things with our computers. However, if the dev is like me he is not going to include it by default (as he doesn't use it) unless gets a request for it. If he sees that other people do want it then he will include it. Dev scratch their own itches first and then respond to constructive feedback from others about what else to include.

...

Welcome to OpenSuse mailing list. Nice to see new users show up here.

Actually I'm not new.

...

The list is purposely setup this way for replies and bounces to go back to the sender. Its been this way since dirt, and is not likely to change. Fred has been here since the Pleistocene, and he knows how to set up an email package.

So why does it work for everyone else except Fred?

It works for me, when I don't forget to change the "To" field to the list. ;) Fred -- "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly -- and for the same reason." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 12:14:41 pm John Andersen wrote:

Scott Newton wrote:

...

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 18:26:34 Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

... Amazing...a feature of KDE for a LONG time, and VERY much used feature (common sense dictates you gain real estate on the desktop) and it wasn't included in 4.0. No wonder we're missing features.

Just out of interest I never use. It irritates me no end. Which just goes to prove everyone is different.

Which means what?

It is not used by many. I share Scott's sentiment. For me is useless.

Isn't this just another backhanded justification of leaving things out? You don't use it, so nobody needs it?

If you would code something out of your interest, not because someone hired you to code what he wants, what features you would include first?

... The list is purposely setup this way for replies and bounces to go back to the sender. Its been this way since dirt, and is not likely to change. Fred has been here since the Pleistocene, and he knows how to set up an email package.

Got to add that to one boring page: http://en.opensuse.org/SUSE_Time_Machine (not really :-) ) -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 08:16:25 pm John Andersen wrote:

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Rajko M. <rmatov101@charter.net> wrote:

...

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 12:14:41 pm John Andersen wrote:

...

Scott Newton wrote:

...

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 18:26:34 Fred A. Miller wrote:

...

... Amazing...a feature of KDE for a LONG time, and VERY much used feature (common sense dictates you gain real estate on the desktop) and it wasn't included in 4.0. No wonder we're missing features.

Just out of interest I never use. It irritates me no end. Which just goes to prove everyone is different.

Which means what?

It is not used by many. I share Scott's sentiment. For me is useless.

...

Isn't this just another backhanded justification of leaving things out? You don't use it, so nobody needs it?

If you would code something out of your interest, not because someone hired you to code what he wants, what features you would include first?

Who paid these Devs to code that feature in KDE3?

It seems that you missed point in my last sentence: If you code for you pleasure, what you will code first?

There was enough interest in this feature (and many others) for the developers to include it Some were long sought after features for small screens. With the return of netbooks, this feature may well be in demand again.

Agree, but that particular feature is far behind many others that developers use.

The point is: Somebody wanted it, nothing got coded just for the fun of it, and things that were irritating or bad ideas have long since been removed, usually by popular demand.

Majority of guys that created any KDE did that for fun of it. When they run out of what can be considered their own itch, than comes popular demand as source of inspiration.

There is a great deal of accumulated knowledge real world proof of concept in these facilities. You shouldn't just throw this stuff away.

I agree that knowledge should be used and improved, no need to reinvent the wheel, but new hardware can do things that no one would suspect possible 7-8 years ago, why not to use that too? Problem is that KDE has no usability labs and teams of experts that will perform research, write specifications, check what features are implemented, and what is still in a queue. KDE developers must go the current path. Ask users what they want, tell them where to write requests, ask for patience until they catch up with requests, include new features, listen for comments and bug reports, ask for patience until problems are solved, and so on. Complaining time and again "why so early" will not help. It is early released because it is opensource development model, where it is expected that user feedback will help to create features and clean up bugs. For instance Dotan want to keep an eye on requested features and its implementation, all he needs are requests. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

El Thursday 30 October 2008 06:52:17 Rajko M. escribió:

...

Got to add that to one boring page: http://en.opensuse.org/SUSE_Time_Machine

What an odd page! My experience with Suse started with 8.0, a boxed version with a manual that I bought from a UK internet vendor in the early years of the century. I bought nearly every boxed version after that until the Novell acquisition caused the closure of the UK retail operation. It really was a good product then, and well ahead of Mandrake, probably only because YAST was a single place to go for setups. I fell out of love with the series with OpenSuse 10.1, upon which I never got software updating to work at all. then 10.2 came along and my wifi card stopped working because of the removal of some non-open binary stuff from the kernel module. I went Ubuntu which worked flawlessly and with far less bother than Suse ever caused me. My home machine is still running Ubuntu, and it has never once stopped working, nor have I had a single application crash. It has updated OS versions twice while running, and just worked. I needed a distro for this HP 2133 before I came to Africa, and because the device is sometimes sold with SLED I decided to try OpenSuse 11.0 The only real problem in installation was getting the wifi to work. I had to download a non-free binary for this one, but a script to do so was supplied with the distro, although it took an hour or so of internet searching to find out. No luck yet with the integral webcam. Its been OK. I've stuck to Gnome because the default KDE 4 just was not happy at this screen resolution - overlapping icons, a lot of clutter, things I did not recognise, things I had to click in the wrong place - and I chose not to spend time working on it. There have been problems, like the kernel bug that means my walkman is not mounted, the synaptics touchpad that stops working if you have the temerity to change settings within Gnome, GDM starting incorrectly, and the frequent total lockups that require a powerdown to cure. Those latter may be a VIA/HP problem, of course. I'm still baffled why print-to-file pdfs can be opened by evince but are blank in Acrobat reader 8. But there you go. But it is much better than the Vista that this machine came with and a bit better than XP. OpenOffice can handle long documents without mangling them like M$word does, I can write scripts to record radio programmes, and it will run VOIP and connect to wifi nodes without fuss or bother. The wifi signal strengths are meaningful, unlike those from Redmond. I still think YAST is a good reason to use Suse, and the latest package manager front end(s?) are very good indeed. I've spent about 20 minutes a day, on average, since leaving home on keeping it working. That's around half of what it would have been on XP and a lot more than I expected after my recent Ubuntu experiences. But at least I've not given any more money to Mr Gates, to make the Vista he already sold with it work properly. As to KDE 3 Vs 4 I think there are some very real causes for concern in what I have read, and I am not sure what the KDE developers think they are doing. But since I have prematurely abandoned both on here I have no contributory opinion. Bob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Fred A. Miller wrote:

Ah.....so if a programmer doesn't use a given setup feature, for example, then most users don't, eh? 'NOT any logic in that my friend.

Come on, Fred. Free OSS is provided by people and organizations -- it doesn't just come. Resources have to be expended, money has to be spent, or at least someone has to do the work. If the organization has no need for it, and no developer is interested in it, why shouldn't they ask for someone to express support for it? For example,

Interesting, 4.0 was released without the ability to hide the task bar. Work wasn't started on added that until I pursued it.

I've never used it at all. The KDE taskbar is too useful to do without, and it takes up little enough space that I'd rather keep it visible than have to go digging for it. If I were a KDE developer, I'd blow off totally the ability to hide it. If I were a manager having to allocate programming resources, I'd demand that my resources be used in justifiable projects. I can't justify it myself; before I allocate resources, I'll ask for evidence that some significant fraction of my users do want it and will use it. That means you and other users will have to tell me you want it. Amazing...a

feature of KDE for a LONG time, and VERY much used feature (common sense dictates you gain real estate on the desktop) and it wasn't included in 4.0. No wonder we're missing features.

I've never seen anyone use it under kde (ok, I presently only interact with half a dozen or so linux users). I haven't even seen many people use it under Windows, whose taskbar is really of very little use compared to kde's, and whose disappearance would cause no discomfort at all. _You're_ missing features. Express _your_ preference for those features in the proper forums, in a proper manner, and if enough others express that support, someone will allocate the resources needed to get it done. Stop whining and cooperate with the people who are doing the work. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 12:35:49 am Clayton wrote:

...

...

feature of KDE for a LONG time, and VERY much used feature (common sense dictates you gain real estate on the desktop) and it wasn't included in 4.0. No wonder we're missing features.

I also never hide the taskbar... plus... of all the KDE users I know.... none hide the task bar

I do - most of the time. I had it transparent for awhile, but got rid of that as it was too hard on my poor eyes. :P -- k -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John E. Perry wrote:

Kai Ponte wrote:

...

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 12:35:49 am Clayton wrote:

...

...

...

feature of KDE for a LONG time, and VERY much used feature (common sense dictates you gain real estate on the desktop) and it wasn't included in 4.0. No wonder we're missing features.

I also never hide the taskbar... plus... of all the KDE users I know.... none hide the task bar

I do - most of the time.

Uh, guys,

The point of my comment was that because Fred wanted to hide it didn't mean that everyone, or even a significant number of users, do.

I want to hide the taskbar -- and have been hiding the taskbar since XP offered this ability. With Fred and myself wanting to hide the taskbar this constitutes "a significant number of users". You constitute the minority.

Many of us don't, which justifies kde's request that people who do want it ask for it.

And Dotan has even made it easy for you to ask for it. Actually, for other things, now, since even Fred admits that they put it in when he asked for it.

Dotan can ask for it all he likes but he is just too late- you can Autohide the taskbar in 4.x by just just clicking the mouse buttons 3 times and....voila! the taskbar disappears, and reappears when you drop the mouse to the bottom of the screen. All done with mirrors, you know. Ciao. -- If you go through life with your head in the sand, all people will see is an arse. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Which version? The one that shipped with 11.0 or the updated from the buildservice? That's the thing I have been trying to point out. Many have not updated to the newer KDE, so they may not have all the current fixes/adds.

That makes a HUGE difference, and takes KDE4 from a mess to a usable desktop. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Clayton <smaug42@gmail.com> wrote:

...

...

Which version? The one that shipped with 11.0 or the updated from the buildservice? That's the thing I have been trying to point out. Many have not updated to the newer KDE, so they may not have all the current fixes/adds.

That makes a HUGE difference, and takes KDE4 from a mess to a usable desktop.

And that's the problem. The devs ARE working to make it better, but forsomeone who just now gets the 11.0 install and tries KDE4 they may become very unhappy. They may not know that there is an update to fix a lot of the problems/missing features.

It would almost make more sense for them to remaster the disks to give people a better KDE4 experience. Yeah, it's more work. But, it may help..... I dunno.

11.1 will be out in mid-December. Doesn't seem like it would be worth rushing out a 11.0 + KDE 4.1.2 before then. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

John E. Perry wrote:

...

And Dotan has even made it easy for you to ask for it. Actually, for other things, now, since even Fred admits that they put it in when he asked for it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

...

Dotan can ask for it all he likes but he is just too late-

Basil, you really ought to read a message before replying to it :-). jp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Clayton wrote:

...

...

Interesting, 4.0 was released without the ability to hide the task bar. Work wasn't started on added that until I pursued it.

I've never used it at all. The KDE taskbar is too useful to do without, and it takes up little enough space that I'd rather keep it visible than

[snip]

...

Amazing...a

...

feature of KDE for a LONG time, and VERY much used feature (common sense dictates you gain real estate on the desktop) and it wasn't included in 4.0. No wonder we're missing features.

I also never hide the taskbar... plus... of all the KDE users I know.... none hide the task bar. It might be a useful feature to some people, but I didn't miss it when it wasn't included in KDE4... and there are a lot of others that didn't miss it.

Horses for courses, as the saying goes. When XP came out (?December 2001) I had a normal CRT monitor but I couldn't "wear" having the taskbar at the bottom with XP providing the option of Autohiding. I also discovered that I could have a totally clean desktop, without any icons of any religion, by creating specifically named Folders to contain the Shortcuts applicable to the name of the Folder (eg, Utilities, Audio, DVDs, etc). While the latter is something I am still to looking forward to be able to do in openSUSE at least with the taskbar being now being able to Autohide I am half happy :-) . The ability to Autohide the taskbar with a 4:3 monitor is not such "a big deal" but go to the digital windscreen monitor and the additional screen space is noticeable - if you are used to it and looking for it. Ciao. -- If you go through life with your head in the sand, all people will see is an arse. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mark A. Taff wrote:

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 23:43:23 John E. Perry wrote:

...

I've never seen anyone use it under kde (ok, I presently only interact with half a dozen or so linux users). I haven't even seen many people use it under Windows, whose taskbar is really of very little use compared to kde's, and whose disappearance would cause no discomfort at all.

I always have my taskbar hidden. In fact, I always have all four of my panels hidden (except on one box I have one of four panels showing). I also interect with several KDE users, all of whom autohide their taskbars. So clearly, there is some number of KDE users > 6 who autohide their taskbars. ;-)

I find the extra screen real estate to be quite a benefit.

This is one missing feature (among many others),

AAAAAARGH! Nobody listens to me :'( . It *IS* available (at least now but wasn't at the start). Right-click on the taskbar, select Panel Settings, then select More Settings and select Autohide. Simple, no? Ciao. -- If you go through life with your head in the sand, all people will see is an arse. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 31 October 2008 05:04:27 John Andersen wrote:

[...]

...

...

also interect with several KDE users, all of whom autohide their taskbars. So clearly, there is some number of KDE users > 6 who autohide their taskbars. ;-)

I find the extra screen real estate to be quite a benefit.

This is one missing feature (among many others),

AAAAAARGH!

Nobody listens to me :'( .

It *IS* available (at least now but wasn't at the start).

Right-click on the taskbar, select Panel Settings, then select More Settings and select Autohide.

Simple, no?

Not exactly.

Auto hide is NOT the same as having a button to hide it when needed, which is what this sub-thread started out about.

John, Basil correctly stated that *autohide* IS NOW available on KDE 4.1.2 - I have tried it on my 10.3 system and my 11.0 system with 4.1.2 and it works as expected. Are you instead looking for the hide button a-la 3.5? -- =================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au ===================================================

John Andersen wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Mark A. Taff wrote:

...

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 23:43:23 John E. Perry wrote:

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I've never seen anyone use it under kde (ok, I presently only interact with half a dozen or so linux users). I haven't even seen many people use it under Windows, whose taskbar is really of very little use compared to kde's, and whose disappearance would cause no discomfort at all.

I always have my taskbar hidden. In fact, I always have all four of my panels hidden (except on one box I have one of four panels showing). I also interect with several KDE users, all of whom autohide their taskbars. So clearly, there is some number of KDE users > 6 who autohide their taskbars. ;-)

I find the extra screen real estate to be quite a benefit.

This is one missing feature (among many others),

AAAAAARGH!

Nobody listens to me :'( .

It *IS* available (at least now but wasn't at the start).

Right-click on the taskbar, select Panel Settings, then select More Settings and select Autohide.

Simple, no?

Not exactly.

Auto hide is NOT the same as having a button to hide it when needed, which is what this sub-thread started out about.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what I have been reading but one can hide the taskbar using a "button" (its at either the left- or the right-hand side depending on your choice of setup). But why bother with this additional selection of a button when the taskbar can Autohide and be brought up by simply taking the cursor to the bottom of the screen? Ciao. -- If you go through life with your head in the sand, all people will see is an arse. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what I have been reading but one can hide the taskbar using a "button" (its at either the left- or the right-hand side depending on your choice of setup).

But why bother with this additional selection of a button when the taskbar can Autohide and be brought up by simply taking the cursor to the bottom of the screen?

But Basil, why should I change the way I want to do things just because the Devs decided to leave out this useful feature (hide button)? Why should I adopt your way? I don't want to always hide the task bar, it has a wealth of information on it. I want to quickly and easily hide it for the duration of specific tasks. If you don't want those hide buttons you can turn them off. But if that feature is left out, no one can have them. [rant] I just can't fathom why people jump in and defend dropping very useful features just because THEY don't use it. This is just wrong headed, arrogant, and inconsiderate. Where did that attitude come from, and how did it infect the Linux community? Has the defense of KDE4 progressed to the point that the entire open source ethos are at risk? I avoid Gimp like it had the plague. I detest Amarok. But I never suggest they should be dropped. Some people like these things. They are welcome to them. Why even chirp in with "I never use that"? [/rant] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 31 October 2008 18:57:44 Larry Stotler wrote:

...

But Basil, why should I change the way I want to do things just because the Devs decided to leave out this useful feature (hide button)?

Because they are the devs and it's their way or the highway unfortunately.

No, because they are human beings, with limited time. Anne

Fred A. Miller wrote:

Larry Stotler wrote:

[snip]

...

What's the old saying, 80% of users only use 20% of features? Well, while I'm only very rarely in that other 20%, I have come to sympathize with this more. Bloated program aversion is why I don't use openoffice, gimp, beagle, etc. KDE3/KOffice does everything I need.

Larry......to broaded your education, <BG>, I'm sending you something under private cover (has OVER 2,500 hp) so you can see what can be done with Gimp, and why it's so important an app. for Linux.

Fred

Fred, why do you and John insist on misinterpreting what we're saying? This marks the end of my participation in this now stupid thread. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2008/10/31 John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com>:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what I have been reading but one can hide the taskbar using a "button" (its at either the left- or the right-hand side depending on your choice of setup).

But why bother with this additional selection of a button when the taskbar can Autohide and be brought up by simply taking the cursor to the bottom of the screen?

But Basil, why should I change the way I want to do things just because the Devs decided to leave out this useful feature (hide button)?

Why should I adopt your way? I don't want to always hide the task bar, it has a wealth of information on it. I want to quickly and easily hide it for the duration of specific tasks.

If you don't want those hide buttons you can turn them off. But if that feature is left out, no one can have them.

[rant] I just can't fathom why people jump in and defend dropping very useful features just because THEY don't use it. This is just wrong headed, arrogant, and inconsiderate. Where did that attitude come from, and how did it infect the Linux community? Has the defense of KDE4 progressed to the point that the entire open source ethos are at risk? I avoid Gimp like it had the plague. I detest Amarok. But I never suggest they should be dropped. Some people like these things. They are welcome to them. Why even chirp in with "I never use that"? [/rant]

John, can you post a link to the bug.kde.org bug report so that I can vote on it and add comments? Thanks. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

On Friday 31 October 2008 19:24:31 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

I don't want to always hide the task bar, it has a wealth of information on it.  I want to quickly and easily hide it for the duration of specific tasks.

If you don't want those hide buttons you can turn them off. But if that feature is left out, no one can have them.

Left out, ommitted, forgotten, not high on Devs list, ....  You only know that it isn't there.  Make a request for the feature.  You do not know that the omission was intentional.  But it will not magically appear w/o *you* stepping up and doing *your* part.  Request the feature you desire!

You don't even need to do that. The work is already done, I believe. Hopefully that will put it into 4.1.2. Anne

On October Friday 31 2008, John Andersen scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what I have been reading but one can hide the taskbar using a "button" (its at either the left- or the right-hand side depending on your choice of setup).

But why bother with this additional selection of a button when the taskbar can Autohide and be brought up by simply taking the cursor to the bottom of the screen?

But Basil, why should I change the way I want to do things just because the Devs decided to leave out this useful feature (hide button)?

Why should I adopt your way? I don't want to always hide the task bar, it has a wealth of information on it. I want to quickly and easily hide it for the duration of specific tasks.

If you don't want those hide buttons you can turn them off. But if that feature is left out, no one can have them.

[rant] I just can't fathom why people jump in and defend dropping very useful features just because THEY don't use it. This is just wrong headed, arrogant, and inconsiderate. Where did that attitude come from, and how did it infect the Linux community? Has the defense of KDE4 progressed to the point that the entire open source ethos are at risk? I avoid Gimp like it had the plague. I detest Amarok. But I never suggest they should be dropped. Some people like these things. They are welcome to them. Why even chirp in with "I never use that"? [/rant]

to borrow a cool line from someone namesless ( anonymous as far as I know ) "Relax, is Linux... " ;) Eventually everything, even Yast2,( remember all the agro over that? ) becomes as useful as everything that has been left out, changed, moved or whatever the complaints are. I think it's a trueism that just about anything that ever was in Linux is still available in one way or another. And you are still using radically unfinished software in Kde4point anything. Cracks me up that some folks who profess a phobia of all things beta will jump into the latest KDE, and I would say Gnome, except there hasn't been a lot of "latest" in Gnome til very recently. :-) ( no names are even being thought about in this sentence <shrug> It's in the manner of if the shoe fits, I guess) -- j -- j "Its like a song I can hear playing right in my ear That I cant sing I cant help listening" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/10/29 02:43 (GMT-0400) John E. Perry composed:

...

Interesting, 4.0 was released without the ability to hide the task bar....

I've never used it at all. ... If I were a KDE developer, I'd blow off totally the ability to hide it.

Clearly you see no use for it. I see no alternative to having it to be able to do what I often need to do. How would I have been able to make the following using KDE4 exclusively (or any other non-KDE3 openSUSE desktop)? http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/SC/sc-bendye1.jpg http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/SC/sc-slreco1.jpg http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/SC/sc-webspace1.jpg -- "Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry." James 1:19 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2008/11/1 Fred A. Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com>:

...

_You're_ missing features. Express _your_ preference for those features in the proper forums, in a proper manner, and if enough others express that support, someone will allocate the resources needed to get it done.

Stop whining and cooperate with the people who are doing the work.

I've made it as simple as it can be John....can't do anymore than that!

Yes you can, you can file a bug. I had considered doing it for you, but then the next time that you need feature you will only complain in the wrong place instead of asking in the right place. Here is the right place: bugs.kde.org -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü N�����r��y隊Z)z{.�ﮞ˛���m�)z{.��+�Z+i�b�*'jW(�f�vǦj)h���Ǿ��i�������

2008/10/29 Fred A. Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com>:

Why should Basil, me, or anyone else have to list each and every feature in 3.5 when those who are working on 4.* KNOW what the feature set is in 3.5? First, I don't have the time to do that, and 2nd, I shouldn't have to.

The people working on KDE 4 do _not_ know what you are missing from KDE 3. They have repeatedly said that they will address specific issues that are brought up. You are not bringing up specific issues, rather complaining that 'something' is missing without telling what 'something' is. When you tell me what is missing, I will address it. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

2008/10/29 peter nikolic <p.nikolic1@btinternet.com>:

On Wednesday 29 October 2008, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

2008/10/29 Fred A. Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com>:

...

Why should Basil, me, or anyone else have to list each and every feature in 3.5 when those who are working on 4.* KNOW what the feature set is in 3.5? First, I don't have the time to do that, and 2nd, I shouldn't have to.

The people working on KDE 4 do _not_ know what you are missing from KDE 3. They have repeatedly said that they will address specific issues that are brought up. You are not bringing up specific issues, rather complaining that 'something' is missing without telling what 'something' is. When you tell me what is missing, I will address it.

this ongoing thing about stuff missing in KDE4 is getting a bit worn to say the least , The easy answer is very simple if it is in KDE3.5.X then it needs to be in KDE4.X full stop no if ands or buts in one in the other

Sorry, that will never be. KDE 4 is not meant to be bug-compatible with KDE 3. If you do decide that there is a specific feature that you need then feel free to file it on the KDE bugzilla, the Opensuse bugzilla, or the relevant wiki page. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü N�����r��y隊Z)z{.�ﮞ˛���m�)z{.��+�Z+i�b�*'jW(�f�vǦj)h���Ǿ��i�������

From Stephan Binner on the Suse bug tracker: KDE3 will not be removed in openSUSE 11.1: http://news.opensuse.org/2008/09/09/kde-in-opensuse-111-and-beyond/ Relevant bug: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=402600 -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

On Monday 03 November 2008 12:58:59 Bob Williams wrote:

This thread has a very low signal to noise ratio. Lots of complaining about missing features in KDE4, but very little detail about what those features are/should be. Just shouting that the devs know what we're talking about, so they'd better get on and give us what we want or we're going to go and play in someone else's yard.

Someone should point out that SuSE isn't KDE. There IS a KDE mailing list, where complaints and suggestions would probably go a lot farther than here. I think this (from one of the list messages) will probably provide subscription information: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde When I first started using KMail (outstanding app, BTW), folks there helped me a lot with quick answers to my newbie questions. I know that KDE developers lurk there as well, 'cause I've corresponded with some of them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

If it isn't a replacement, then don't call it KDE 4. Call it YAGD (Yet Another GUI Desktop) or something completely different.

Or perhaps YAGAD (Yet Another Gawd Awful Desktop). -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2008/10/28 Kai Ponte <kai@perfectreign.com>:

On Monday 27 October 2008 05:15:21 pm John Andersen wrote:

...

...

You mention that you want KDE 4 to be comparable to KDE 3. That is not it's goal. It's goal is to be better than KDE 3.

Its failed miserably. By the way... How can you use terms like "better" if you reject the ability to compare?

Stepping into the fray...

If KDE 4 is to be "better" than KDE 3 then there has to be the ability to do everything the previous version did in some fashion or another.

For example, we were previously stuck with having to type CAT or ls to get a list of files in a folder.

Then a gui was developed and we were presented with a list of those files.

Later the gui was advanced and we were presented with a list of those files, and an icon showing what those files should be able to do.

Are you saying that you can do everything with Konqueror that you can do in Konsole? I disagree.

...

...

No, this is relevant because KDE 4 is not a replacement for KDE 3.

That is a bit of revisionist reporting. KDE4 was ALWAYS intended as a replacement for KDE3.

Yeah, I would expect the 4.x version to be a direct replacement for the 3.x version of anything.

At all stages of development?

If it isn't a replacement, then don't call it KDE 4. Call it YAGD (Yet Another GUI Desktop) or something completely different.

I've seen KDE called worse (Can Really Alter Perceptions in acronym form). -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

2008/10/28 Kai Ponte <kai@perfectreign.com>:

...

...

Yeah, I would expect the 4.x version to be a direct replacement for the 3.x version of anything.

At all stages of development?

No, but that's what I'd expect the released product to be.

KDE faced a similar situation to what the PulseAudio team is now facing. They had to make a .0 release to demonstrate that the APIs will remain stable, so that applications could be developed. That does not mean that the distros should immediately move to the new system, however. Of course, actually having the distro move help increase feedback so it is welcome from the dev's standpoint, but it is terrible for the users. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:03 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:

KDE never did a thing to discourage distros from releasing 4.0, and in fact they went to lengths to push it into Opensuse. KDE team pushed 4 into OpenSuse at least two point releases before it was ready. And Opensuse, gladly accepted it.

At least they left KDE3 in it, and we have convinced them to continue to include it. Fedora 9 and a couple of other distros dropped KDE3 altogether. It could have been worse. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Andersen wrote:

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com> wrote:

...

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 1:03 PM, John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com> wrote:

...

KDE never did a thing to discourage distros from releasing 4.0, and in fact they went to lengths to push it into Opensuse. KDE team pushed 4 into OpenSuse at least two point releases before it was ready. And Opensuse, gladly accepted it. At least they left KDE3 in it, and we have convinced them to continue to include it. Fedora 9 and a couple of other distros dropped KDE3 altogether. It could have been worse.

You correctly used the Past Tense.

We are all being perp-walked to KDE4 I'm afraid.

I have not used KDE directly for many months, (prefer enlightment 16/17). Last clear out finally dumped KOffice as I never use it... So I suggest go out and explore as there are alternative to KDE (and GNOME for that matter)... - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkkHUEYACgkQasN0sSnLmgIjswCeOriP3ljpo04u/Oyi30hE6x98 SxgAn38Ckixj176H5STYTY6bJ3S1cd7l =naXr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 20:20, Anne Wilson wrote:

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 17:11:59 John Andersen wrote:

...

We are all being perp-walked to KDE4 I'm afraid.

No you are not. There are still plenty of distros that give you KDE3.

OK.. Name one that has Yast, and a couple of other goodies that only come with suse/opensuse. Some of us have been using suse for quite a long time. I don't want to switch. It's just that simple. From the looks of it, 11.1 will be the last until probably around the 12 series because I really dislike kde4. It's personal. Nothing against the developers except that it looks like someone was trying to copy vista. Widgets? What the heck is a widget? plasma? what is that? I don't want to spend hours just to get the functionality of what I've been using for years. You come into the conversation and make statements like this. And you've been using SUSE products for how long? Mike -- Powered by SuSE 10.0 Kernel 2.6.13 X86_64 KDE 3.4 Kmail 1.8 8:41pm up 20 days 0:51, 4 users, load average: 4.00, 4.03, 3.59 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 19:48:54 Mike wrote:

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 20:20, Anne Wilson wrote:

...

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 17:11:59 John Andersen wrote:

...

We are all being perp-walked to KDE4 I'm afraid.

No you are not. There are still plenty of distros that give you KDE3.

OK.. Name one that has Yast, and a couple of other goodies that only come with suse/opensuse.

I haven't a clue what these mysterious goodies are. As for yast, what's so great about it? Every distro I've seen has a set of tools, and frankly I don't find yast as good as some of the others.

Some of us have been using suse for quite a long time. I don't want to switch. It's just that simple.

Please yourself.

From the looks of it, 11.1 will be the last until probably around the 12 series because I really dislike kde4. It's personal. Nothing against the developers except that it looks like someone was trying to copy vista.

I've never used vista. All I know is that I once read an early review of vista which concluded that all it had was already in linux - and that was before KDE 4 - so I don't see the relevance.

Widgets? What the heck is a widget? plasma? what is that? I don't want to spend hours just to get the functionality of what I've been using for years.

Why did we spend hours writing a glossary on userbase, so that you would get answers to these questions? Why is it that others should take the trouble, not you?

You come into the conversation and make statements like this. And you've been using SUSE products for how long?

Hardly any time at all - and I can't get out soon enough, but that's my personal view. It doesn't make suse wrong for you, but it is hopeless for me. I'll go back to distro that does work for me. I won't bitch about the things I dislike, I'll just do something about it. Which is simply what I'm advising you to do. Anne

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 21:34:44 Mike wrote:

So I install it, then have to go find all the answers to questions I've got? Let's see. Went from kde1 to 2 without that. Went from kde2 to 3 without that. Am I missing something?

It's a new application name (plasma, not widgets. widgets have been around since the beginning, and the term is used in every single window manager out there). You had new application names in both kde2 and kde3. konqueror, for example, replaced kfm. Plus, I don't think anything in kde4 actually requires that you know what plasma is. It's just "the desktop". And since almost all kde3 users used, or at least knew about, superkaramba, I don't think the desktop widgets are all that foreign either. All desktops I know about have them, or something very similar. Even enlightenment Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

2008/10/28 Mike <mike@mikenjane.net>:

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 20:20, Anne Wilson wrote:

...

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 17:11:59 John Andersen wrote:

...

We are all being perp-walked to KDE4 I'm afraid.

No you are not. There are still plenty of distros that give you KDE3.

OK.. Name one that has Yast, and a couple of other goodies that only come with suse/opensuse. Some of us have been using suse for quite a long time. I don't want to switch. It's just that simple. From the looks of it, 11.1 will be the last until probably around the 12 series because I really dislike kde4. It's personal. Nothing against the developers except that it looks like someone was trying to copy vista. Widgets? What the heck is a widget? plasma? what is that? I don't want to spend hours just to get the functionality of what I've been using for years.

You come into the conversation and make statements like this. And you've been using SUSE products for how long?

Mike

1) Please post a link to the Suse bug where it is requested that KDE 3.x remain available. 2) Until what date will the last version of Opensuse that includes KDE 3.x be supported? -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü N�����r��y隊Z)z{.�ﮞ˛���m�)z{.��+�Z+i�b�*'jW(�f�vǦj)h���Ǿ��i�������

2008/10/29 John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com>:

...

1) Please post a link to the Suse bug where it is requested that KDE 3.x remain available.

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2008-06/msg02400.html

Bug report number 402600

Thanks, Mike, I have reopened the bug and made a comment: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=402600 Please, comment on the bug yourself and cite specific examples of software that is holding you to KDE 3. I encourage everyone else to do the same. Remember, use SPECIFIC EXAMPLES and not general it-doesnt-work statements. Thanks! -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 8:10 AM, Anton Aylward <anton.aylward@rogers.com> wrote:

Is there no dead chicken I can wave to make openSUSE 11.0 revert completely to KDE 3.5 and ave 4.x vanish, some special button, single CLI command ... whatever ?

Nope, and when I complained that KDE4 programs were installed instead of KDE3 ones(like the games and stuff - minor really, but still, I prefer the look and feel of the KDE3 ones), the devs seemed to be suprised. Also, they have removed SOME KDE3 specific stuff because of conflicts, so you end up having to make use of a couple of qt4 libraries. Which skews the tests that show that KDE4 uses less resources than KDE3. You'd have to go back to 10.2 or 10.3 to do a real comparision. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

despite the dissenting views. I actually like the new interface (but not the new style menu - I switched back to the classic kde style menu as soon as the install was finished

I did that too.. then one day I thought I'd try the "slab" thing, and to be honest.. I don't hate as much as I thought I would :-) In fact, now that I've used it a bit, I find I rarely use the old traditional menu. Worth mentioning that the slab menu is not new to KDE4.. it was there in KDE3 as well. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anne Wilson wrote:

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 17:11:59 John Andersen wrote:

...

We are all being perp-walked to KDE4 I'm afraid.

No you are not. There are still plenty of distros that give you KDE3.

Anne

So, you're telling long time SUSE users to just go away? -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 28 October 2008 10:03:23 am you wrote:

...

KDE faced a similar situation to what the PulseAudio team is now facing. They had to make a .0 release to demonstrate that the APIs will remain stable, so that applications could be developed. That does not mean that the distros should immediately move to the new system, however.

More revisionist statements.

KDE never did a thing to discourage distros from releasing 4.0, and in fact they went to lengths to push it into Opensuse.

Look at the names on the KDE team, and you find large numbers of those are opensuse people.

KDE team pushed 4 into OpenSuse at least two point releases before it was ready.  And Opensuse, gladly accepted it.  Why?  When has your left hand ever rejected anything handed to it by your right hand?

Tell y'all what Further items for discussion are welcome; please add them http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Meetings There's a place to discuss such items. okaythankyounowbyebye -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com Clean out a corner of your mind and creativity will instantly fill it. - Dee Hock -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen wrote:

2008/10/28 John Andersen <jsamyth@gmail.com>:

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On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 6:46 AM, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> wrote:

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2008/10/28 Kai Ponte <kai@perfectreign.com>:

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Yeah, I would expect the 4.x version to be a direct replacement for the 3.x version of anything. At all stages of development? No, but that's what I'd expect the released product to be. KDE faced a similar situation to what the PulseAudio team is now facing. They had to make a .0 release to demonstrate that the APIs will remain stable, so that applications could be developed. That does not mean that the distros should immediately move to the new system, however. More revisionist statements.

Go ahead, continue to attack me as if I'm the reason that Suse is abandoning the desktop that we both prefer.

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KDE never did a thing to discourage distros from releasing 4.0, and in fact they went to lengths to push it into Opensuse.

Is that so? I only remember hearing "4.0 is not intended for end users". By the way, go through launchpad.net (Ubuntu bug tracker) and look at who's name opened the bug to have KDE 4.0 ditched in favor of 3.5.9 in Kubuntu 8.04. Did you file a similar bug for your distro?

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Look at the names on the KDE team, and you find large numbers of those are opensuse people.

How have you tried communicating with them? Serious question.

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KDE team pushed 4 into OpenSuse at least two point releases before it was ready. And Opensuse, gladly accepted it. Why?

Because you did not object?

I objected way BEFORE you ever showed up on this board strutting and thumping. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2008-06/msg02400.html I was bitch slapped right out of bugzilla, by Binner, the same guy that threatened to remove KDE3. Now it seems he will make good on his threat. It was at that instant I learned that that bug requests to opensuse are a pointless gesture, and resolved I would never again submit a bug report to that bunch of control freaks. I report bugs via Ubuntu. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

peter nikolic wrote:

On Tuesday 28 October 2008, John Andersen wrote: will someone please restart threading this darn boring lot again this is now 60 plus messages that have landed as single messages unthreaded

I never said any such thing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

peter nikolic wrote:

On Tuesday 28 October 2008, John Andersen wrote: will someone please restart threading this darn boring lot again this is now 60 plus messages that have landed as single messages unthreaded

Why not use a decent mail client called Thunderbird and you will find that (almost) all messages in a thread will be threaded. Ciao. PS I very STRONGLY suggest that you switch to Thunderbird because John did not state what you attribute to him as having stated in this forum -- your mailer is making things up! (Ah but of course, you are using Kmail! :-) ) -- If you go through life with your head in the sand, all people will see is an arse. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 8:52 AM, M. Skiba <mailinglist@michael-skiba.de> wrote:

I think the problem is that this therad is going on for such a long time and some of us have autodelete enabled (mine is set to 14 days), which now results in the situation that the original messages are deleted and the follow ups reply to mails that arent in the mail client anymore ;)

That's why I read on-line using GMail. It's threaded and easy to keep up. Except when someone's mail throws in a RE: and it splits to a seperate thread. I think that I see this as 4 threads now. I quit bothering with a mail client back when I was using SLMR(Silly Little Mail Reader)?OLX(Off-Line eXpress). I have mail saved on my netscape account from as far back as 2001. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:59:31 -0400, you wrote:

That's why I read on-line using GMail. It's threaded and easy to keep up. Except when someone's mail throws in a RE: and it splits to a seperate thread. I think that I see this as 4 threads now.

Then gmail is only doing poor man's threading, i.e. threading by subject. Real threading uses the Message-ID and In-Reply-To which allows reply trees. But I just looked at the header of your mail and both are set correctly, so the reason these mails start different mails is that those mails were created on MUAs that ignore the existence of In-Reply-To. Foremost among them is MS Outlook which in more then ten years hasn't learnt to handle it. Philipp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 31 October 2008 06:40:41 pm Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:59:31 -0400, you wrote:

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That's why I read on-line using GMail. It's threaded and easy to keep up. Except when someone's mail throws in a RE: and it splits to a seperate thread. I think that I see this as 4 threads now.

Then gmail is only doing poor man's threading, i.e. threading by subject. Real threading uses the Message-ID and In-Reply-To which allows reply trees. But I just looked at the header of your mail and both are set correctly, so the reason these mails start different mails is that those mails were created on MUAs that ignore the existence of In-Reply-To. Foremost among them is MS Outlook which in more then ten years hasn't learnt to handle it.

Philipp

It is something with KMail. Turn threading off and on and it threads messages again, but I have no idea where to start looking. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 01 November 2008 06:13:39 am Anne Wilson wrote:

On Saturday 01 November 2008 13:26:33 Rajko M. wrote: ...

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It is something with KMail. Turn threading off and on and it threads messages again, but I have no idea where to start looking.

I'm having the same problem on this OpenSUSE laptop, and have never seen it on other distros, so it may be a package bug.

Anne

Could be. Some patch skipped? -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 01 November 2008 11:31:39 pm jfweber@gilweber.com wrote:

On November Saturday 01 2008, Rajko M. scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer: ...

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It is something with KMail. Turn threading off and on and it threads messages again, but I have no idea where to start looking.

-- Regards, Rajko

in KMail. configure Kmail --> appearance pane --> select the"message list tab. on that page are most if not all ( I haven't looked for all) threading options. I think that should get you an option to have your threads open/closed etc.

HTH

That part works as expected. The problem is when I leave a folder, and come back all messages in this particular thread are just long line of messages. Changing any of threading options in Folder drop down menu brings threading back. It is just a bug, and as Ann Wilson checked it is seems to be openSUSE related. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 02 November 2008 04:16:57 pm Randall R Schulz wrote: ...

Hey! What's that? Why does my SuSE Linux 10.0 system have openSUSE software running in it?? How did that happen???

Update ? -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 01 November 2008 11:31:39 pm jfweber@gilweber.com wrote:

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On November Saturday 01 2008, Rajko M. scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer:

...

...

...

It is something with KMail. Turn threading off and on and it threads messages again, but I have no idea where to start looking.

-- Regards, Rajko

in KMail. configure Kmail --> appearance pane --> select the"message list tab. on that page are most if not all ( I haven't looked for all) threading options. I think that should get you an option to have your threads open/closed etc.

HTH

That part works as expected. The problem is when I leave a folder, and come back all messages in this particular thread are just long line of messages. Changing any of threading options in Folder drop down menu brings threading back.

It is just a bug, and as Ann Wilson checked it is seems to be openSUSE related. Do you have both of the threaded message settings in the drop down menu checked? Because unchecking the 2nd one (threading by subject) puts it back to the old way.. as in now you can change folders as you will but

On November Sunday 02 2008, Rajko M. scratched these words onto a coconut shell, hoping for an answer: the threading stays .. I'm not certain why that would be tho. I have just tried to have the thread by subject option as the one choice, and it's not available if you uncheck the "thread messages" unchecked. You may need both options, I can live w/ just the one. IF you and other folks need both options they better put a bug in the developer's collective ears then. It looks like the sort of thing that wouldn't get a high priority.... unless it's a developer's fave. That's kinda chancey so if needed I'd let them know. -- j "Its like a song I can hear playing right in my ear That I cant sing I cant help listening" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 02 November 2008 04:27:47 pm jfweber@gilweber.com wrote:

On November Sunday 02 2008, Rajko M. scratched these words onto a ...

...

The problem is when I leave a folder, and come back all messages in this particular thread are just long line of messages. Changing any of threading options in Folder drop down menu brings threading back.

It is just a bug, and as Ann Wilson checked it is seems to be openSUSE related.

Do you have both of the threaded message settings in the drop down menu checked?

I usually have both checked. When this thread wouldn't show as threaded simple check *or* uncheck "Thread Messages also by Subject" will change display in threaded. It was just change what was needed to get proper display. Now I updated to KMail 1.9.10 and KDE to 3.5.10, but the problem remain. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org