x86_64 architecture level requirements, x86-64-v2 for openSUSE Factory
Hi, there's been rumors and confusion about ALP raising the x86_64 architecture level to v3 which requires CPUs with AVX2 support and how this will affect openSUSE Factory. Sofar openSUSE Factory was supposed to be not affected but I think it makes sense to re-consider the current -v1 usage given what other distros are doing. Thus I would propose raising the x86_64 architecture level to x86-64-v2 for openSUSE Factory. v2 requires CMPXCHG16B, [SL]AHF, POPCNT and SSE4_2 (and the predecessor SSE extensions) but not AVX, BMI or FMA. Historically the 32bit multilibs built in the i586 tree kept using i586 in openSUSE Factory while for SLE15 we are using x86-64-v1 there as well given there's no support for Hardware not supporting x86-64 there. This is not a proposal to change that part, so the 32bit port should be unaffected (I notice opensuse.org refers to the 32bit port as i686 though) Comments welcome. Richard. -- Richard Biener <rguenther@suse.de> SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Frankenstrasse 146, 90461 Nuernberg, Germany; GF: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman; HRB 36809 (AG Nuernberg)
Hello! On 7/28/22 13:44, Richard Biener wrote:
I assume the other distros are most likely Fedora, Ubuntu and Arch?
I think it would be good to know which Intel and AMD CPUs were the first to introduce x86_64-v2, so that users know which CPUs will stop working with Tumbleweed. Adrian
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz composed on 2022-07-28 13:50 (UTC+0200):
Richard Biener wrote:
What is it these functions add? What proportion of users with v2 support would actually notice any difference? Is this level in line with whatever Win11 requires?
+1 Does this mean dropping 32bit TW too? Which 64bit CPUs will be forced to switch to 32bit TW, and which to other distros? Support for older hardware has been a Linux tradition. Would it be feasible to have two 64bit TWs? If yes, one could go beyond v2, the other stay right where TW is now. I just finished zypper dup on a Pentium III with i810 graphics that Debian 11 fully supports, while Debian 12 roughly matches TW[2] in failing iGPU support from the Intel DDX[1]. :( [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1016151 [2] (EE) open /dev/dri/card0: No such file or directory (EE) open /dev/fb0: No such file or directory (EE) intel(0): AGP GART support is not available. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 4:50 AM John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, no community distribution has elected to move to a higher level yet. It has been brought up a few times in Fedora and Arch, but as far as I know, the change hasn't happened yet in a way that eliminates x86_64-v1 in these distributions. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
Am Donnerstag, 28. Juli 2022, 15:30:15 CEST schrieb Neal Gompa:
When I've been following-up Arch Linux correctly, they've decided to provide x86_64-v3 packages *in addition* to their existing x86_64 packages (which will remain unaffected for now). The option to make x86_64-v2 the new baseline (replacing existing x86_64 packages) was also on the table but they decided against it because x86_64-v2 would bring almost no benefit, at least not enough to justify the hardware requirement. (Note that providing x86_64-v3 packages has not been carried out yet. It looks like they want to focus on their build automation first. Not a concern for openSUSE, though.) I suppose this decision makes most sense. No users on old hardware will be negatively affected and users with newer hardware can switch to x86_64-v3 packages.
On 7/28/22 23:40, Marius Kittler wrote:
The simplest way of achieving this, that would on the other hand use the most build resources would be to add a new arch "x86_64-v3" which would leave people with a choice. Whether we have the spare build power for this would be the main question. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Am 28.07.22 um 13:50 schrieb John Paul Adrian Glaubitz:
CMPXCHG16B and [SL]AHF have been around for quite some time [1]: "The AMD64 processors prior to the Revision F[50] (distinguished by the switch from DDR to DDR2 memory and new sockets AM2, F and S1) of 2006 lacked the CMPXCHG16B instruction", "Early AMD64 and Intel 64 CPUs lacked LAHF and SAHF instructions in 64-bit mode. AMD introduced these instructions (also in 64-bit mode) with their 90 nm (revision D) processors, starting with Athlon 64 in October 2004. Intel introduced the instructions in October 2005 with the 0F47h and later revisions of NetBurst." POPCNT is also pretty old: for Intel it came with Nehalem in 2008 [2], and for AMD with K10 in 2007. [3] More problematic is SSE4.2: while Intel also introduced it with Nehalem in 2008 [2], AMD has it only since Bulldozer in 2011 [4]. Taking into account that CPUs take some time to get into the hands of users, the cutoff is essentially 10-13 years. I don't have such old hardware, but for my taste it's a bit too early to cut off K10, especially for poorer countries. Overall the architecture levels seem to be more oriented towards Intel chips, e.g. AMD introduced FMA with Bulldozer as well, but Intel a bit later, so it ended up in v3. Aaron [1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86-64#Older_implementations> [2] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehalem_(microarchitecture)> [3] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_10h> [4] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulldozer_(microarchitecture)>
On Thu, 2022-07-28 at 11:44 +0000, Richard Biener wrote:
Thank you for starting this discussion Richard!
I know that "openSUSE ALP" (reference of community distro based on ALP code/binaries) is independent from Factory. So on behalf of openSUSE ALP if would to go the way of rebuilding ALP binaries, then v2 would be our goto. I see other Enteprise-y distributions going this way. openSUSE Leap users showed us in Retro that they value support of old hardware, so v3 would be the least prefered option. We do have a community request in code-o-o to do so since I believe 15.3. This is a nogo for code-stream 15, but I see an opportunity for v2 and new code-stream. Lubos
On Thursday 2022-07-28 14:08, Fridrich Strba wrote:
Yes, but the question was a serious one. Like, for this v0/v1 device: # lscpu Architecture: x86_64 CPU op-mode(s): 32-bit, 64-bit Address sizes: 32 bits physical, 48 bits virtual Byte Order: Little Endian CPU(s): 2 On-line CPU(s) list: 0,1 Vendor ID: GenuineIntel Model name: Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N450 @ 1.66GHz CPU family: 6 Model: 28 Thread(s) per core: 2 Core(s) per socket: 1 Socket(s): 1 Stepping: 10 CPU max MHz: 1667.0000 CPU min MHz: 1000.0000 BogoMIPS: 3324.94 Flags: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts nopl cpuid aperfmperf pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm movbe lahf_lm dtherm L1d cache: 24 KiB (1 instance) L1i cache: 32 KiB (1 instance) L2 cache: 512 KiB (1 instance) NUMA node(s): 1 NUMA node0 CPU(s): 0,1 Vulnerability Itlb multihit: Not affected Vulnerability L1tf: Not affected Vulnerability Mds: Not affected Vulnerability Meltdown: Not affected Vulnerability Mmio stale data: Not affected Vulnerability Retbleed: Not affected Vulnerability Spec store bypass: Not affected Vulnerability Spectre v1: Not affected Vulnerability Spectre v2: Not affected Vulnerability Srbds: Not affected Vulnerability Tsx async abort: Not affected # ld.so --help ... Shared library search path: (libraries located via /etc/ld.so.cache) /lib64 (system search path) /usr/lib64 (system search path) Subdirectories of glibc-hwcaps directories, in priority order: x86-64-v4 x86-64-v3 x86-64-v2 Legacy HWCAP subdirectories under library search path directories: x86_64 (AT_PLATFORM; supported, searched) tls (supported, searched) avx512_1 x86_64 (supported, searched)
On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 2:06 PM Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
is there even x86_64 Variant0 and Variant1 as well? can anyone please provide a robust and working means to determine the current level for us current leap 15.4 (and/or even 15.3) users? I found some script via <https://unix.stackexchange.com/posts/631226/revisions> by sephen kitt there. My real meta hardware results with this script only give me -v2 (very few) but mostly virtually all -v1 results. But then again when looking into /proc/cpuinfo on my hardwares I find stuff I can not interpret or understand (e.g. finding SSSE3 (three S) but no SSE3 and still SSE4_x ) I am mostly an avid AMD fan here. I also ask for sane decision for the future of Leap, I make a lot of use of aged hardware and I always liked it that the underdog AMD invented the x86_64 world and succeeded with it and not the giant monopolist named intel, but only as a side remarkt. I wonder why cut x86_64 (V0 or V1 or whatever early stages of it? in general but not going there incrementally? I dont wana create e-waste of my hardware and I suppose others are happy with their x64 world as well compared to really old x86/32bit/i686/i585 stuff when I understand all these sub ABIs at all. Please dont abandon our hardware when it is already in the x64 world (x86_64). thanks. ty
Hey, Am Do., 28. Juli 2022 um 17:20 Uhr schrieb cagsm <cumandgets0mem00f@gmail.com>:
can anyone please provide a robust and working means to determine the current level for us current leap 15.4 (and/or even 15.3) users?
First of all, there is no change whatsoever planned for Leap users, so Leap users don't have to worry about anything. But to answer your question, simply run this: podman run registry.opensuse.org/opensuse/tumbleweed:latest /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 --help Greetings, Dirk
On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 6:12 PM Dirk Müller <dirk@dmllr.de> wrote:
okay this means there is no new CPU feature requirements for Leap 15.5 and successor?
is this a single line command? I first also needed to zypper in podman then all your above two(?) lines in a single line gave me a huge output. Does the current leap 15.3 and 15.4 /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 not have these parameters and or outputs? its call only creates an error message as result. never dealt with podman and containers so far. where does the bits of this download or packages get actually stored locally? thanks lots. ty
On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 20:24, cagsm <cumandgets0mem00f@...> wrote:
otherwise a short awk program will also give answers: [code] #!/usr/bin/awk -f BEGIN { while (!/flags/) if (getline < "/proc/cpuinfo" != 1) exit 1 if (/lm/&&/cmov/&&/cx8/&&/fpu/&&/fxsr/&&/mmx/&&/syscall/&&/sse2/) level = 1 if (level == 1 && /cx16/&&/lahf/&&/popcnt/&&/sse4_1/&&/sse4_2/&&/ssse3/) level = 2 if (level == 2 && /avx/&&/avx2/&&/bmi1/&&/bmi2/&&/f16c/&&/fma/&&/abm/&&/movbe/&&/xsave/) level = 3 if (level == 3 && /avx512f/&&/avx512bw/&&/avx512cd/&&/avx512dq/&&/avx512vl/) level = 4 if (level > 0) { print "CPU supports x86-64-v" level; exit level + 1 } exit 1 } [/code] hint: in case of linefolding: each line starting with "if (level..." ends with "...level = [number]" this was taken from a stackexchange post about 1,5 years ago, url was: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/631217/how-do-i-check-if-my-cpu-sup... - Yamaban
On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 22:28, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@...> wrote:
In theory maybe, I'll give you that, but in my past research on this I have not found such a CPU made by intel or AMD. Are there others that produce feature-complete x86_64 CPUs with AVX2 but without AVX1 ?? Please find one, THAT unicorn I'd like to at least know about. The oldest up-and-running system I have available atm, is from 2016 with a intel Core i3-4330T which should support x86-64-v3 AFAICT. Anyway, RedHat did the move to x86-64-v2 in RHEL9, that was big talk in early last year. The following is my personal opinion: Best implementation for SUSE SLE would be a "starting with SLE16 page" that clearly states which x86-arch CPUs are 64bit but NOT -v2 so the decision can be made clearly and and completely transparent. A public accessible (no login) list of known bad (in terms of features) CPUs (which would also help for Tumbleweed as a point of reference to point to). - Yamaban.
Yamaban composed on 2022-07-28 23:44 (UTC+0200):
The oldest up-and-running system I have available atm, is from 2016 with a intel Core i3-4330T which should support x86-64-v3 AFAICT.
# cat cpuvcheck #!/usr/bin/awk -f BEGIN { while (!/flags/) if (getline < "/proc/cpuinfo" != 1) exit 1 if (/lm/&&/cmov/&&/cx8/&&/fpu/&&/fxsr/&&/mmx/&&/syscall/&&/sse2/) level = 1 if (level == 1 && /cx16/&&/lahf/&&/popcnt/&&/sse4_1/&&/sse4_2/&&/ssse3/) level = 2 if (level == 2 && /avx/&&/avx2/&&/bmi1/&&/bmi2/&&/f16c/&&/fma/&&/abm/&&/movbe/&&/xsave/) level = 3 if (level == 3 && /avx512f/&&/avx512bw/&&/avx512cd/&&/avx512dq/&&/avx512vl/) level = 4 if (level > 0) { print "CPU supports x86-64-v" level; exit level + 1 } exit 1 } # awk -f cpuvcheck CPU supports x86-64-v3 # inxi -Cx CPU: Info: dual core model: Intel Core i3-4150T bits: 64 type: MT MCP arch: Haswell rev: 3 cache: L1: 128 KiB L2: 512 KiB L3: 3 MiB ... Flags: avx avx2 ht lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 ssse3 vmx # 7 of 29 of my in-use 64-bit systems are the above vintage or newer. About 12 of my in-use 64-bit systems, all of which have TW, 15.4 & 15.3, are more like as follows: # inxi -Cx CPU: Info: dual core model: Intel Core2 Duo E8400 bits: 64 type: MCP cache: L2: 6 MiB ... Flags: ht lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 ssse3 vmx # awk -f cpuvcheck CPU supports x86-64-v1 # Between the above v1 and the Haswell v3 above it, I have (AFAIK, or worse) only: # inxi -Cx CPU: Info: quad core model: AMD Phenom II X4 965 bits: 64 type: MCP arch: K10 ... Flags: ht lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 sse4a svm # awk -f cpuvcheck CPU supports x86-64-v1 # I still have some like the following humming along acceptably: # inxi -Cx CPU: Info: single core model: Intel Pentium 4 bits: 64 type: MT arch: Netburst Presler rev: 5 cache: L1: 16 KiB L2: 2 MiB ... Flags: ht lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 # awk -f cpuvcheck CPU supports x86-64-v1 # # inxi -Cx CPU: Info: single core model: Intel Pentium 4 bits: 64 type: MT arch: Netburst Presler rev: 4 cache: L1: 16 KiB L2: 2 MiB ... Flags: ht lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 # awk -f cpuvcheck CPU supports x86-64-v1 # v2 no good for keeping old iMacs useful: # inxi -CxMz Machine: Type: Desktop System: Apple product: iMac7,1 v: 1.0 serial: <filter> Mobo: Apple model: Mac-F42386C8 v: PVT serial: <filter> UEFI: Apple v: IM71.88Z.007A.B03.0803051705 date: 03/05/08 CPU: Info: dual core model: Intel Core2 Duo T7700 bits: 64 type: MCP arch: Core2 Merom rev: A cache: L1: 128 KiB L2: 4 MiB ... Flags: ht lm nx pae sse sse2 sse3 ssse3 vmx # awk -f cpuvcheck CPU supports x86-64-v1 # -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 11:44:03 +0000 (UTC) Richard Biener wrote:
...
Comments welcome.
Hi, Are there some data available about the actual benefit of this change? On the one hand I am very for making the best use of available CPU features. On the other hand I dislike to obsolete hardware which is still perfectly working and usable. I am aware that for specific types of applications, algorithms or calculations modern CPU features can bring a big benefit. But I assume that most users are not running this type of workload. I also experienced in the past that a self compiled kernel optimized for i586 on a Pentium had noticeable better performance then the original distribution kernel built for i386 for specific tasks. But I think with x86_64 there is already a huge improvement of common available CPU features, and that the additional added features since then have very limited benefit for standard software (common libraries, kernel, ...). Therefore I think it would really be important to have some data about the expected benefits for standard use cases on -v2 or -v3 CPUs. And yes, I have a machine which would be obsoleted by this change. Kind regards, Dieter
Hi, On Thu, Aug 04 2022, dieter wrote:
Over the weekend, I have quickly gathered some SPEC CPU benchmarks results comparing the different x86_64 versions: https://jamborm.github.io/spec-2022-07-29-levels/index.html Martin
dieter <d_werner@gmx.net> writes:
Yes, the gain is small, but a few percent gain will result in e.g. HPC users to pick another distribution. But yeah, the gain in these benchmarks is really surprisingly small. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman
Hello, On Fri, Aug 05 2022, Dan Čermák wrote:
please note that I measured SPEC only because I already have the setup to run it quickly and then compare the results. The results show some benefits, for example the improvements in 531.deepsjeng_r is most likely because of POPCNT and the software you use may contain more such opportunities to utilize these "new" instructions. And I do think that at some point old HW just should not be considered a blocker to progress - and more than a decade seems like old to me. But while I am myself somewhat undecided about switching to -v2, I would like the openSUSE community to look at the -v3 improvements too, because the floating-point ones are IMHO big. ImageMagick alone runs 20% faster and that means that compiling for older HW wastes a lot of compute power (and thus a lot of energy too) on new machines. Can we estimate when we will want to switch to -v3? (I assume we don't want to do it now.) In two years? Four years? Six years? Never? I think that arriving at some consensus would benefit not just planners at both openSUSE and SUSE but also users still relying on machines that do not support -v3 (I regularly use one too and also would like to keep it for a few more years :-). Thank you, Martin
* Larry Len Rainey <llrainey15@gmail.com> [08-05-22 09:16]:
and all outlooks are different. I still run tumbleweed on dual core Intel Core2 Duo T6600 [MCP] arch: Penryn Yorkfield -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc
Larry Len Rainey [05 aug 22 13:14] wrote:
SUSE ALP (~ SLE 16, June 2024) supposedly will be x86-64-v3 only. Derived openSUSE Leap (16.x?) possibly will be x86-64-v2 only. Tumbleweed can be used for "antique" hardware. That is why I insist on supporting basic x86-64 (AKA x86-64-v1), while I support deployment of x86-64-v2 and x86-64-v3. We can use x86-64 + some new instructions, and x86-64-v2 + some new instructions. Such as x86-64 + {CMPXCHG16B, LAHF-SAHF, POPCNT, SSE3} or x86-64 + {LAHF-SAHF, SSE3}. Or x86-64-v2 + AVX. See https://code.opensuse.org/leap/features/issue/79 for some details.
On 8/7/22 19:55, Nikolai Nikolaevskii wrote:
To clarify if SUSE ALP ends up being x86-64-v3 then whatever openSUSE derives will likely also follow that as the default setup as its likely we would probably still use the SLE binaries directly. Where however we have a bit more flexibility is if there was the demand we could rebuild all the packages as an x86-64-v1 "port" in the same way we currently rebuild armv7l for Leap 15. It should also be said SUSE hasn't made a final decision on which version of X86_64 they'll use for ALP, I believe this is still being evaluated. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Larry Len Rainey <llrainey15@gmail.com> writes:
No, that's not a good idea because Tumbleweed is upstream of Leap due to the Factory first policy. If a package stops working on x86_64 v1, then we would only find out far too late when it gets branched into Leap. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman
Martin Jambor composed on 2022-08-05 14:57 (UTC+0200):
more than a decade seems like old to me.
How long have you been on planet Earth? To those of us past 60, 70 or 80 years of age, 10 years ago may seem like yesterday, last week, or last month, and on a retiree's income, it may be hard to justify the financial layout for replacing a nicely working PC or laptop with no more issues than (evil) planned obsolescence by big, money-making corporations building new fabs. 10 years ago in the FOSS world is more like 8-9 in the Windows gaming world. We have to buy an older generation of new hardware to guarantee full Linux support. 10 years of use can easily mean 12 years of age. Some due to prices don't buy new PCs. Instead, they buy much cheaper 3-5 or more years old off-lease PCs & laptops. For them to get 10 years of life can mean 15 or more years old. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Martin Jambor <mjambor@suse.cz> writes:
I will object to switching to x86_64 v3 as the only option in the foreseeable future (at least for the next decade), because this baseline just got introduced and people will still be using perfectly working machines whom we would cutoff. I consider this a disservice to our users given that this is a *technical* problem that should be fixed. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman
Hello, On Wed, Aug 10 2022, Dan Čermák wrote:
I'll be happy if I am proven wrong but I disagree that this is a "problem" that can be "fixed" into non-existence (except if we provide both -v1 and -v3). Rather than a problem - technical or otherwise - we are facing a trade-off that is inherent in the nature of the situation. Either we do a "disservice" to users of old machines because their n years (and ticking) old machines will stop working or we do a "disservice" to users of new machines who have workloads which run slower. The answer may well be that even in 2030 it will be more important that machines from 2018 work but we should acknowledge that we have decided to impose the price on a different set of our users. Alternatively openSUSE can somehow cough up the resources to provide an additional distribution flavor - where it will bear the hardware and electricity cost of the trade-off. Or we can decide that having multiple x86_64 flavors is more important than having a 32bit version and stop building i686, which would be a disservice to all the happy users of that. Another trade-off. The trade-off can be made smaller and indeed is by many projects dynamically dispatching into routines specialized for a given ISA version or even specific CPU. For many users this can cover all of their interesting workload, for example if their only use for AVX2 is video codecs. But that is not the case for all. Real ImageMagick is probably a good example but I have not checked thoroughly. Implementing dynamic dispatching in projects which don't have it basically requires that upstream authors of the projects do it and it may often be a lot of work and quite some complexity to be dealt with forever. I hope the above makes sense, regardless of anyone's opinion on what we should or shouldn't do or when. Martin
I really miss the open source aspect and the full(?) availability of source code in this discussion here. Did any of the major(?) distros out there ever go down the road of fully make their users compile their stuff on their own machines or similar idea? I wonder why anyone needs to provide any such stuff as a certain cpu set at all, why not allow for some basic set of packages that boot up the machine and then compile the rest for the specified machine or its specialties such as instruction sets and more. wouldnt this be an option for opensuse as well? i think i remember such thing as linux from scratch, but i never looked into this. would this be such a distro? why is nobody(?) or very few do this? am i missing anything here? ty.
On Wed, Aug 10, 2022 at 07:31:46PM +0200, cagsm wrote:
Yes, Gentoo is notorious, and at least a few others exist.
It's impractical because of compilation time, especially on old machines that would be left out by requiring newer CPU features. Many would not be even able to compile many packages at all due to insufficient memory. Thanks Michal
On Wed, Aug 10, 2022 at 7:40 PM Michal Suchánek <msuchanek@suse.de> wrote:
Yes, Gentoo is notorious, and at least a few others exist.
okay i didnt come around too many linux distros i guess.
well doesnt these whole arguments contradict the reasoning that it would be exactly the new fancy hardware owners of incapable to compile their stuff and optimize it to their needs and new(er) components? i think it would make sense to provide basic x86_64 binaries or a minimal os booting up stuff and the compile (not that often) the rest of stuff. or provide everything in the basic platform binaries and compile all updates patches etc only the files and packages that come as updates and renew themselves or as the user chooses so. are varios distros not as well trying to attempt to go for reproducible builds? this would need to implement the counter-checking on the users hardware anyways, or am i misunderstanding the reproducible-builds stuff? i think even (open)suse has some reproducible builds project if i am not mistaken. maybe i should take a look at gentoo then or at lfs. ty.
On Wed 2022-08-10, cagsm wrote:
The point of reproducible builds is that they are reproducible which (ideally) means identical. Building on local systems with "random" compiler flags goes against that and opens a different can of worms. I am not saying it doesn't have benefits, and some are really interested in that. It's just something different than what openSUSE distros aim for - which includes ease of consumption. Gerald
Hello, Am 11.08.22 um 07:44 schrieb Gerald Pfeifer:
Well, if it's ease of consumption OpenSUSE aims for, normally older hardware should be enabled with OpenSUSE as this is more inclusive and makes it easier for newcomers with older computers to use the Linux distribution. This means we should stay on older generations for the standard system then, no? Kind regards, Dennis Knorr -- Dennis Knorr, dennis.knorr@suse.com SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstraße 146, 90461 Nürnberg, Germany Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg)
On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 1:44 AM Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote:
Reproducible builds (as Debian defines them) have a weaker value proposition when the distribution doesn't accept binary builds from random computers into the repositories that could be built any which way. If you have total control of the inputs used to do the build, and have the ability to replay build environments (which not all distros have the ability to do), then specifically spending *more* time on this is not as important. That's why Debian and openSUSE spend time on this, while you don't see Fedora doing it so much, for example. That's not to say they don't *care* about reproducible builds, but that the motivation to do more is significantly lessened due to what they already have. And like Gerald said, screwing around with build flags violates reproducible builds too. :) -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
On 10/08/2022 19.47, cagsm wrote:
i think even (open)suse has some reproducible builds project if i am not mistaken.
Yes, we have https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Reproducible_Builds with tools and I keep continuous rebuild tests running and publish monthly status updates on this ML. reproducible builds help to establish trust in that binaries were really made from a given source. However, for a distribution that only ships sources to users, you don't need reproducible-builds, because there are no binaries to trust. NB: A related topic is bootstrappable builds <http://bootstrappable.org/> You might want to look into stage0 and GNU Mes there. Ciao Bernhard M. -- openSUSE Developer and Sysadmin SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Frankenstraße 146, 90461 Nürnberg Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg)
On Wed, Aug 10, 2022 at 06:33:29PM +0200, Martin Jambor wrote:
I would like to see this 'disservice' to users of newer hardware somehow clarified. From the benchmarks AFAICT v2 is not even overall gain, and while v3 is very slightly better I doubt it would be noticable for, say, a desktop. HPC is not real reason either because 1) it's moving towards using GPUs anyway 2) if you still do calculations on CPU you are likely going to use specialized libraries that have dynamic CPU detection, anyway Finally if you want to squeeze last fraction of a percent of performance out of your CPU you will have to taylor the compiler options to your particular CPU, and do your own bemchmarking - the prebuilt binaries are not really heplfule for that. And there is OBS for packaging your own. I have not heard about a specific case where not having some more recent instructions brings in complex code patching, extra maintenance, or any such problem. In any case if such use case does exist I would like to hear which specific CPU feature enables the optimization, not some random bag of unrelated CPU features called x86_64-vn.
If we cannot point out any noticeable price the users of newer CPUs are actually paying for the old CPU support then we shoud keep the support even in 2030 I suppose. Although I have my doubts about that - CPU obsolescence generally happens in generations by some developments that render the CPU generation practically insufficient in some way, and while the Core(2) CPUs are usable today they are nearing their practical usability EOL.
I appreciate that ImageMagick execution speed is a nice compiler benchmark but I have to ask how many people run ImageMagick all day. Sure, there are some web services that might use it for image processing but I have no idea how many are out there. I vaguely remember some specialized C++ image processing libraries for image recognition but I also remember that I had to build them myself, anyway. Thanks Michal
Michal Suchánek composed on 2022-08-10 19:32 (UTC+0200):
while the Core(2) CPUs are usable today they are nearing their practical usability EOL.
I don't see it as CPU per se. I have multiple Core2Duos, an i5-11400 and various in between. Newer CPU generations mainly mean more threads per price point. CPU speed range hasn't been evolving. The big differences I see are all I/O-related, DDR2 vs. DDR3 vs. DDR4, NVME vs SATA, maximum supported RAM 4G vs. various multiples of 4G, and availability of USB3 and its ostensible competitors. Basic internet, writing and spreadsheet functionality still exists in 2G max RAM PCs, just not with flagship desktop environments or lots of browser tabs, PCs for people with minimal budgets, depending on what they can get for little to no cost. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On Wed, Aug 10, 2022 at 03:27:33PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
Each new iteration tends to be about 10-20% fater for some definition of faster which accumulates over time. If raw CPU power was the problem we would not get new Celerons and APUs, though.
Sure, and at some point some of the IO capabilities become essential rendering the systems that don't have them impractical to use. Different video interfaces and screen size limits exist, too.
internet, writing and spreadsheet functionality still exists in 2G max RAM PCs,
Which is very close to the 4G limit mentioned above and potential bottleneck in the near future.
just not with flagship desktop environments or lots of browser tabs, PCs for people with minimal budgets, depending on what they can get for little to no cost.
Some Core2 systems go up to 16G but getting the memory is very expenive so you generally have to live with whatever is installed there or get a new system. Note that on many old systems you would require memory size that was atypical at the time the systems were mainstream to get the maximum possible memory so it's unlikely to be available second hand. Thanks Michal
Am 10.08.22 um 18:33 schrieb Martin Jambor:
What might actually be hard is to identify which portions of a software could benefit from newer instructions, and which newer instructions that might be. That's a lot of profiling and experimentation (and knowledge of instruction set extensions). Upside is that this can use much more recent instructions than any reasonable baseline. Aaron [1] <https://lwn.net/Articles/691932/>
On Wednesday 2022-08-10 22:40, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
Can anyone prove or disprove that the kernel has to be V3 for things like ImageMagic to run if it is complied V3?
As has been reiterated many times already, scientific and multimedia software is using SSE4 and other instructions *today*. Never have they placed specific requirements on the kernel to make that possible.
Larry Len Rainey <llrainey15@gmail.com> writes:
Can anyone prove or disprove that the kernel has to be V3 for things like ImageMagic to run if it is complied V3?
No, the kernel does not have to be compiled with x86_64 v3.
I could see a ImageMagic-V3 as an option for those with hardware that can take advantage of it and just plain ImageMagic for those that cannot.
Yes, that's what I'd like to see as well, but currently rpm does not support this natively (it could be worked around via different multiple repositories though, but I'd like a proper solution to be honest). Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman
On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 09:17:40 +0200 Dan Čermák wrote:
I do not know if it possible from the build steps to produce all the -vX binaries/DSOs in one go and package them all into one "fat" rpm. In principle it would mean to do the compile, link and install steps several times with different compiler settings and installation targets. For the rpm installation I could imagine that by default the -v1 version is installed (a link in the filesystem pointing to the included -v1 version) and a rpm-post scriptlet detects the architecture level supported by the current CPU and changes this link to the highest possible variant - for packages where this really matters. Kind regards, Dieter
dieter <d_werner@gmx.net> writes:
I don't think this is a great idea, as the rpm size will just blow up needlessly causing more disk usage and larger downloads for *everyone*. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman
On Thu, 11 Aug 2022, Dan Čermák wrote:
The first and foremost rpm feature missing is a standard way to specify a minimum required set of HW capabilities a package requires. Currently the rpm meta includes the architecture, so one "obvious" way would be to simply add additional architectures. But then rpm itself doesn't do any magic and will happily install even arm architecture packages to your x86_64 system IIRC. There are already packages existing in our x86_64 repository that will not run correctly on original x86_64 hardware but SIGILL. Unfortunately there's currently no way to annotate those appropriately and prevent them from installing on systems not capable enough. The suggestion of multiple repositories is just one possible technical implementation of such annotation, using system provides and package requires would be another (then with the technical issue of having multiple same named but different filenamed packages in the same repository?). IMHO the multiple repository solution is the most pragmatic but even that requires some integration into the install/update workflow so that repositories get added with appropriate priority. On the OBS side a x86_64-v3 repo could simply build as project link (linkedbuild) against the x86_64 (-v1) repo, enabling only the subset of packages that are interesting plus enhancing the project config with the appropriate default optflags adjustment. Similarly a -v1 repo could be built for the subset of interesting packages people with v1 hardware use in case the default is switched to v2 or v3. I guess the initial set of packages for v1 will be much larger than the initial set for v3. Richard.
Richard Biener <rguenther@suse.de> writes:
Yes, that would be preferable. Unfortunately this requires a complete revamp of the way rpm handles architectures.
Yes, this part needs to get covered by the "upper layer" of the package management, i.e. zypper or dnf.
[OT] Why requires though? I don't think it's a good idea to explicitly require a library with a certain instruction set. Provides on the other hand would be a workaround, but I really think that architectures are the proper way how this should be handled. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman
On Thu, 11 Aug 2022, Dan Čermák wrote:
Richard Biener <rguenther@suse.de> writes:
[..]
To elaborate, the "system" would have a Provides: hw-x86_64-version = 3 for example and a package built for x86_64-v2 would then have a Requires: hw-x86_64-version >= 2. The Provides would be magically added upon install time somehow (thus "system provides"). The provides/requires would then be the high-level implementation or as to say, a safety net. That could be done ontop of the multiple repositories. But sure, it would weirdly exist besides the rpm architecture but as I know that one is a mess it's maybe better to not rely on it in the short term. Richard. -- Richard Biener <rguenther@suse.de> SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Frankenstrasse 146, 90461 Nuernberg, Germany; GF: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman; HRB 36809 (AG Nuernberg)
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 07:21:56AM +0000, Richard Biener wrote:
But that does not make any sense. The x86_64 'versions' are just random bags of features that CPU vedors randomly pick to (not) include in the CPUs. If anything these dependencie hould be for specific CPU features. Thanks Michal
Richard Biener <rguenther@suse.de> writes:
You will not get around adding some logic to rpm itself, because you can unplug your harddrive and put it into a new PC or deploy a base image to a bunch of new PCs. Then the base package that provides your hardware capabilities is no longer valid, so I think this really must be generated by rpm itself[1]. But going via Provides/Requires does not sound like such a bad idea, as it could be used to add even more granularity, e.g. requiring only AVX512 or FMA3. Cheers, Dan Footnotes: [1] and yes, I know that if you "downgrade" your CPU, you'll run into huge problems anyway… -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman
On Mon, 15 Aug 2022, Dan Čermák wrote:
Not that this will help the unplug/plug (or CPU exchange to lower level) case - the system will not work, the only thing is that rpm might now see that the database is not in a consistent state anymore ;) And sure, explicit CPU feature requires/provides would be possible as well, but growing the list of Requires comes at a cost so I stuck with the architecture levels here (which also have the benefit to be comparable with not just equality). But yes, if you for example do
gcc -S t.c -v
you can see that GCC internally (on x86) does /usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-suse-linux/7/cc1 -quiet -v t.c -march=haswell -mmmx -mno-3dnow -msse -msse2 -msse3 -mssse3 -mno-sse4a -mcx16 -msahf -mmovbe -maes -mno-sha -mpclmul -mpopcnt -mabm -mno-lwp -mfma -mno-fma4 -mno-xop -mbmi -mno-sgx -mbmi2 -mno-tbm -mavx -mavx2 -msse4.2 -msse4.1 -mlzcnt -mno-rtm -mno-hle -mrdrnd -mf16c -mfsgsbase -mno-rdseed -mno-prfchw -mno-adx -mfxsr -mxsave -mxsaveopt -mno-avx512f -mno-avx512er -mno-avx512cd -mno-avx512pf -mno-prefetchwt1 -mno-clflushopt -mno-xsavec -mno-xsaves -mno-avx512dq -mno-avx512bw -mno-avx512vl -mno-avx512ifma -mno-avx512vbmi -mno-avx5124fmaps -mno-avx5124vnniw -mno-clwb -mno-mwaitx -mno-clzero -mno-pku -mno-rdpid --param l1-cache-size=32 --param l1-cache-line-size=64 --param l2-cache-size=10240 -mtune=haswell -quiet -dumpbase t.c -auxbase t -version -o t.s so you "nicely" have a set of (possibly!) used CPU extensions available. It might be possible to auto-prune the list by scanning the binary for used instructions, OTOH if it includes a JIT that happily produces them that wouldn't work. Richard. -- Richard Biener <rguenther@suse.de> SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Frankenstrasse 146, 90461 Nuernberg, Germany; GF: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman; HRB 36809 (AG Nuernberg)
On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 08:19:12AM +0000, Richard Biener wrote:
That would be immensely useful feature, actually. Unfortunately there is no support for having the required support libraries for multiple architectures.
If it as subarchitectures like i386/i486/i586/i686 then you could tell rpm which you want and which not but then there is a need for rpm to know that i686 package can use i386 library as dependency, but not an armv7l one. Thanks Michal
On Thursday 2022-08-11 16:24, Michal Suchánek wrote:
Considering you can do `rpm --chroot`... and with things like qemu-via-binfmt, could actually *use* the ARM package, it make sense that rpm did not want to impose restrictions. It's a glorified cpio unpacker that keeps a record of all unpacked files in a database. zypper applies the architecture logic (like proposing glibc.i686 on 686-capable x86); that all looks like a good layering design.
Unfortunately there is no support for having the required support libraries for multiple architectures.
I see two blockers. First, arch-specific libraries would have to live in arch-specific directories, like is the case with /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu on Debian. Secondly, the autodependencies should be rewritten, from $ rpm -q --provides glibc glibc = 2.35-6.1 glibc(x86-64) = 2.35-6.1 ld-linux-x86-64.so.2()(64bit) i586$ rpm -q --provides glibc ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 to glibc = 2.35-6.1 glibc(x86-64) = 2.35-6.1 ld-linux-x86-64.so.2()(x86_64) i586$ rpm -q --provides glibc ld-linux-x86-64.so.2()(i586)
On Monday 2022-08-15 09:24, Richard Biener wrote:
glibc.ppc64le.rpm and glibc.x86_64.rpm already conflict in practice without any additions just because they share files in the same location (/lib64/libc.so.6 and /lib64/libc.so.6).
Yes, you are right. But my thought here was that perhaps we should make sure you can't accidentally mix *totally incompatible* RPM deps (such as installing libfoo1.ppc64le on a glibc.x86_64 system) before even tackling the one-direction-is-compatible characteristic of ({somearch, somearchv2}).
On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 09:54:51AM +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
That would probably sort of work, except rpm/zypper are really bad at resolving such complex dependencies. Already seen a lot of ugliness with kernel variants.
Which is broken. There is no reason to not have both glibc.ppc64le.rpm and glibc.x86_64.rpm, they provide completely different feature. It also randomly does not conflict with glibc.armv7l or glibc.ppc for no real reason.
Why shouldn't you? Just include glibc.ppc64le as well. Yes, it should not be enabled by default, and if you do enable it you should make sure you do not install any vital system tool as non-native binary because you won't be able to boot otherwise but other than that non-native tools are perfectly usable.
before even tackling the one-direction-is-compatible characteristic of ({somearch, somearchv2}).
Architecture 'version' is nonense. It's just random set of unrelated features that CPU vendors sometimes pick to include, sometimes not. x86 CPUs manufactured last year are not even all x86_64-v3. Most may have most of the CPU features that were arbitrarily picked as 'v3' but not all of them have all. There is similar problem with ppc64le definition - at its inception IBM arbitrarily decided that ppc64le platform compliant systems should have HTM, and now Power10 does not have it although it has a number of other features not available at the time so it's technically not a compilant ppc64le platform. Thanks Michal
On Thu, Aug 11, 2022 at 10:59 AM Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
Indeed. In fact, I had proposed such enhancements to the elf autodeps code in RPM quite some time ago[1]. However, it doesn't solve subarch stuff, mostly because it wasn't a thing I had to think about when I wrote it... [1]: https://github.com/rpm-software-management/rpm/pull/1038 -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
Hi Martin, Martin Jambor <mjambor@suse.cz> writes:
No, it cannot be fixed into non-existance by some technical solution ;-) But I think it could be addressed by adding support for different x86_64 baselines in rpm, zypper & dnf, podman, docker, etc., so that we can get away with rebuilding just a small subset of packages, where a newer baseline actually *matters*. That will not result in a terrible strain on our workers, while also allowing users of old hardware to still use openSUSE. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman
On Thu, 11 Aug 2022, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
But glibc.i686 is just used as -32bit for x86_64 systems. I don't think you get glibc.i686 automagically installed on i586 systems or that there's anything preventing you from installing it when your system isn't capable of running it (which would then be quite fatal I guess ;)) Richard.
On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 08:22:14 +0000 (UTC) Richard Biener wrote:
On an Athlon-XP I got automatically glibc.i686 long time ago, so it seems at this time there was a mechanism to select the best fitting version. I think I did not get kernel-pae automatically. About unsupported instructions: when software does runtime CPU dispatching properly there is no problem with including instructions not supported by the installed CPU, and therefore rpm can hardly check this. Kind regards, Dieter
On Aug 11 2022, dieter wrote:
That works because glibc.i686 is a different rpm architecture than glibc.i586, but still the same package, and rpm knows that i686 is compatible with the hardware.
I think I did not get kernel-pae automatically.
Here kernel-pae is a different package than kernel-default, and rpm has no builtin information to prefer the former over the latter, or to install kernel-pae in the first place. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different."
Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> writes:
The problem is that i686 and x86_64 are distinct architectures for rpm. x86_64v2 and x86_64v3 are not, these are "arbitrary" subsets of the full x86_64 instruction set that have just been defined as certain baselines. RPM has no notion of these, it will see both builds as x86_64 and tools like zypper or dnf will then probably the one with the higher NEVR. The only solution at the moment is to build into different repositories, but then you have to either rebuild *everything* or copy over a ton of packages from x86_64v1 into the x86_64v2/v3 repository. And then there's containers as well, which do not understand baselines either... Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman
On Thursday 2022-08-11 10:33, Dan Čermák wrote:
rpm should have configuration directives for what's distinct and what isn't. /usr/lib/rpm/rpmrc:arch_compat: x86_64: amd64 em64t athlon noarch rpmrc:arch_compat: athlon: i686 After all, if glibc.i586 and glibc.i686 are distinct, then glibc.x86_64 and glibc.x64v3 can be distinct.
Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> writes:
Yes it should, but architecture handling in rpm is at the moment kind of a mess and should be reworked. I've started a discussion about this specific topic on github: https://github.com/rpm-software-management/rpm/discussions/2140 Let's see where that goes. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman
Larry Len Rainey <llrainey15@gmail.com> writes:
Unfortunately then users can very easily shoot themselves in the foot by installing the v3 version on an old system. Our tooling simply does not understand subarchitectures/baselines. Cheers, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Frankenstrasse 146 90461 Nürnberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman
On Thursday 2022-08-11 14:18, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
Why not do what python and ffmpeg do for multiple versions. We have multiple python versions and ffmpeg3 ffmpeg4 and ffmpeg5. Why not ImageMagic and ImageMagicv3?
python/ffmpeg is about different APIs, not about what instructions the code utilizes (but which is the topic of x86_64-v2).
Hi, On Fri, 05 Aug 2022 07:59:18 +0200 Dan Čermák wrote:
Actually these gains are so small that I personally would conclude that it makes no sense to switch to -v2 or even -v3. There are even benchmarks in which the -v3 code is "significantly" slower - in the scope of measured differences. For HPC use cases I assume these users would compile the performance relevant libraries and programs really optimized for their very hardware. For many users the CPU is idle most of the time. For them a speed improvement of 2% or even 20% is hardly noticeable. Even for developers - I think if the build time of a project drops from 100 minutes to 98 minutes most of the time does not matter. Of course this is my personal opinion and others may have different priorities and every saved second my be essential to them. About running Tumbleweed on PCs older than 10 years: compared to PCs from 20 years ago these machines can be horrendously fast. And they can still perfectly fulfill many tasks. Tumbleweed is a good distribution and provides current software and security updates, so why not. I do not know what hardware most of the openSUSE user base is using. But from my own case switching to -v2 or higher would mean I can no longer use Tumbleweed on a machine, or at least would not get security updates or bugfixes anymore if I just stay at a snapshot which still works. Kind regards, Dieter
Hello openSUSE! Talking about benchmarks, I spoke with Product Management earlier today, and we want to have data. PM seems to be expecting a larger gain than I see mentioned here. So the plan is to run a benchmark with some test suite (perhaps https://www.phoronix-test-suite.com/ ?). As of now, SUSE:ALP does not seem to be built with any -v3 flags. Once this is the case, we can use such an image and compare it to, e.g., v1-based TW minimal install. I expect that this will be later in September. Another outcome: We have to have a community -v3 ALP image, to support the non-paid to paid "seamless" migration use case for ALP. As mentioned before, PM doesn't block us from Rebuilding ALP as v1 or v2 in an openSUSE:Step- like fashion (this was also discussed on Rel-eng call two weeks ago or similar). Doug also had an idea to ask via survey@ who has -v3 hw available etc. So perhaps that would help. Investing into -v2 ALP rebuild will take some effort, and I want to make sure that such investment is backed with data and also understand the gain, etc. Lubos On Fri, 2022-08-05 at 07:59 +0200, Dan Čermák wrote:
On Fri, 2022-08-05 at 07:59 +0200, Dan Čermák wrote:
On Thu, 25 Aug 2022, Lubos Kocman wrote:
The main reason for this is that devel:LEO (sic) has no way to be distinguished from Factory (yet) when building GCC and the project config wasn't changed to make the change at the Optflags level either.
The gain that we can't measure is the downstream one - ISVs and users building their products with a more sensible default setting for modern hardware. I fully expect OSS software to be optimized where it is important, but I have less hope for the rest where people rely on magic compilers (ICC -aX-me-harder, something GCC doesn't provide for good reason). The gain for our own product is probably as much (or more) marketing as performance gains. Richard. -- Richard Biener <rguenther@suse.de> SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Frankenstrasse 146, 90461 Nuernberg, Germany; GF: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman; HRB 36809 (AG Nuernberg)
On Thu, Aug 4, 2022 at 12:40 PM Martin Jambor <mjambor@suse.cz> wrote:
Huh, Martin ..thanks for taking the time to do this..it was disappointing to the extreme. So is this a case of a) most code been written "unaware" of vectorization b) the compiler is not aggressive enough c) we do not get warnings of this kind of code or all of them..
On Sun, 7 Aug 2022 10:27:03 -0400 Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
other interpretations are something like: the results with the "common" instructions are not so bad, or the added instructions also can not do miracles. It is likely that the CPU makers and the compiler makers are also using the SPEC CPU benchmarks to evaluate their work and all the three paths could be comparatively well optimized in this respect. I think this low performance gain in dedicated CPU benchmarks suggests to avoid switching to -v2 or -v3 which would drive away users of CPUs which do not support them or force them to get new hardware and bring only tiny benefit to the users with CPUs which support them. Kind regards, Dieter
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
d) (4th option): code is already using new instructions via system components https://www.phoronix.com/news/Glibc-Dropping-SSSE3-Paths For clean comparison disable some CPU instructions via BIOS settings or other way.
Hello, On Sun, Aug 07 2022, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
first and foremost, please be careful when interpreting benchmark numbers. Even though as benchmarks go, SPEC is one of the better ones, it is still just a collection of 10 integer-crunching and 13 floating point programs. None of them is concurrent, for example, so it cannot detect any speed-ups due to use of CMPXCHG16B in concurrent algorithms. I posted the results here publicly because... well because Dan asked me to but also to point out the big potential gains at -v3, not necessarily to argue against adopting -v2.
a) most code been written "unaware" of vectorization
I am not sure what you mean. If things like simd OpenMP pragmas, then those are not used in SPEC.
b) the compiler is not aggressive enough
I think that many of the -v3 numbers show that vectorization is employed and helps a lot, but unsurprisingly the big differences only kick in when the vectors are bigger.
c) we do not get warnings of this kind of code
No, we don't. But I think that issuing warnings that would be useful and not annoyingly full of false positives would be very difficult if not impossible. There is the -fopt-info output, which in theory programmers can use to make sure the compiler can vectorize their code, but it is not exactly easy to understand without knowing compiler internals. And that is not easy to change either. Martin
dieter wrote:
https://openbenchmarking.org/result/2103142-HA-UARCHLEVE55 Only x86-64-v3 has good gains (sometimes).
On Fri, 5 Aug 2022, Nikolai Nikolaevskii wrote:
Only AVX with x86-64-v3 has the chance to double throughput of vectorized code, plus -v3 has BMI which can make differences in crypto and hashing. But as it is always with bechmarks - if you get to choose it you can choose the outcome of the experiment. There's definitely special cases benefiting of SSE 4.2 but the gain with -v2 is expected to be limited compared to -v3, but -v3 is understood to be a no-go for openSUSE. I'll note that while some specialized libraries come with separate code paths for ISAs they benefit from and appropriately dispatch via CPUid most developers are simply too lazy to even think about that. You may say that performance may not matter in most cases but performance often also translates to less energy use which for mobile uses might be even more important than performance (but that's even more difficult to measure, of course). Richard. -- Richard Biener <rguenther@suse.de> SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Frankenstrasse 146, 90461 Nuernberg, Germany; GF: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman; HRB 36809 (AG Nuernberg)
Please make gradual upgrade: from {i586+SSE1 | x86-64} to {x86-64 | x86-64-v2}. Otherwise system with Phenom II X6 and 16 GiB of RAM will have to use 32-bit Tumbleweed and will be limited to 4 GiB of usable RAM (2 GiB system + 2 GiB user). IMHO supporting x86-64 feature levels v1 + v2 + v3 can be cheaper than today's 32-bit i586+SSE1 and x86-64.
On Fri, 5 Aug 2022, Nikolai Nikolaevskii wrote:
I wonder if instead the i586 port can ship a 64bit kernel (requiring only v1) for those systems but otherwise keep the 32bit userland common with the i586 port. Richard. -- Richard Biener <rguenther@suse.de> SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Frankenstrasse 146, 90461 Nuernberg, Germany; GF: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Boudien Moerman; HRB 36809 (AG Nuernberg)
On 8/5/22 18:55, Richard Biener wrote:
For me as a general user I think the sort of real life benchmarks that may make an influence on whether this is worthwhile on a wider scale is stuff like if I left my laptop on battery playing youtube for 3 hrs would using V3 instructions result in significantly better battery life. If someone could present an argument saying that this change will provide much better battery efficiency for a large number of our users that becomes a much more compelling argument for saying that we are chosing to no longer support hardware that a small number of our user use. (or it justifies using the processing power to build both). Where as if all we really know is it will make some certain specific workloads a bit faster for some then its much harder to make such an argument. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Am 05.08.22 um 11:25 schrieb Richard Biener:
Totally with you on the energy consumption, but I have to slightly disagree about how usual such dispatching is. Lots of software that benefits most from vectorization already does something like that, most notably anything in the "multimedia" arena, like audio/video codecs, filters, and so on. Same goes for cryptography. It's hard to see exactly how widespread it is, but even with lots of libraries missing .symtab I find a few on my system: $ for lib in /usr/lib64/*.so.{[0-9],[0-9][0-9],[0-9][0-9][0-9]}; do readelf -a --wide $lib | grep _sse2 >/dev/null && echo $lib; done /usr/lib64/libc.so.6 /usr/lib64/libfftw3f.so.3 /usr/lib64/libfftw3.so.3 /usr/lib64/libmpeg2.so.0 /usr/lib64/libm.so.6 /usr/lib64/libmvec.so.1 /usr/lib64/libnettle.so.8 /usr/lib64/libsodium.so.23 /usr/lib64/libSvtAv1Enc.so.1 /usr/lib64/libvidstab.so.1.1 /usr/lib64/libvisual-0.4.so.0 /usr/lib64/libwebrtc_audio_processing.so.1 $ for lib in /usr/lib64/*.so.{[0-9],[0-9][0-9],[0-9][0-9][0-9]}; do readelf -a --wide $lib | grep _sse3 >/dev/null && echo $lib; done /usr/lib64/libsodium.so.23 /usr/lib64/libx265.so.199 $ for lib in /usr/lib64/*.so.{[0-9],[0-9][0-9],[0-9][0-9][0-9]}; do readelf -a --wide $lib | grep _ssse3 >/dev/null && echo $lib; done /usr/lib64/libc.so.6 /usr/lib64/libQt5Gui.so.5 /usr/lib64/libsodium.so.23 /usr/lib64/libSvtAv1Enc.so.1 /usr/lib64/libx265.so.199 $ for lib in /usr/lib64/*.so.{[0-9],[0-9][0-9],[0-9][0-9][0-9]}; do readelf -a --wide $lib | grep _sse4 >/dev/null && echo $lib; done /usr/lib64/libc.so.6 /usr/lib64/libde265.so.0 /usr/lib64/libjavascriptcoregtk-4.0.so.18 /usr/lib64/libm.so.6 /usr/lib64/libmvec.so.1 /usr/lib64/libsodium.so.23 /usr/lib64/libx265.so.199 $ for lib in /usr/lib64/*.so.{[0-9],[0-9][0-9],[0-9][0-9][0-9]}; do readelf -a --wide $lib | grep _avx >/dev/null && echo $lib; done /usr/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 /usr/lib64/ld-lsb-x86-64.so.3 /usr/lib64/libcblas.so.3 /usr/lib64/libc.so.6 /usr/lib64/libfftw3.so.3 /usr/lib64/libjavascriptcoregtk-4.0.so.18 /usr/lib64/liblapacke.so.3 /usr/lib64/libm.so.6 /usr/lib64/libmvec.so.1 /usr/lib64/libopenblas_pthreads.so.0 /usr/lib64/libopenblas.so.0 /usr/lib64/libsodium.so.23 /usr/lib64/libvmaf.so.1 $ for lib in /usr/lib64/*.so.{[0-9],[0-9][0-9],[0-9][0-9][0-9]}; do readelf -a --wide $lib | grep _popcnt >/dev/null && echo $lib; done /usr/lib64/libjavascriptcoregtk-4.0.so.18 /usr/lib64/libzvbi.so.0 Granted, scientific software tends to be an issue, perhaps because the implicit assumption is that people will build their own with -march=native. But if that's common enough I'd rather have those packages built in an additional version (which could even be x86_64-v3) than up the requirements across the board. But even there it's not unheard of, I mean look at the madness that is GMP: they have versions of their functions for at least a handful of different CPUs. That's not even just taking the instruction sets into account but often hand-tuned for a specific chip. Aaron
Am 07.08.22 um 00:30 schrieb Aaron Puchert:
Of course to be fair these are specialized libraries in some sense, but as I've argued in another thread, maybe the gap between SSE2 and SSE4.2 only helps in special circumstances. Certainly these code paths are small relative to the overall size of /usr/lib64, but they likely make up a considerable portion of a typical user's run time. (What the grepping didn't find are libraries like libavcodec.so or libx264.so with AVX instructions, and I presume most video codecs use some kind of acceleration.) When I'm watching a video on Firefox (with the default media.ffmpeg.vaapi.enabled = false) and run "perf record" on the RDD process, I see lots of AVX instructions. Which is to say: yes, newer instructions aren't widely used, but they're widely used where it matters. So at least I don't have the feeling that my new stuff (if you can count AVX as new) is not being used properly. Aaron
On 8/7/2022 14:39, Aaron Puchert wrote:
Classic 80/20 rule. The "special circumstances" are all that really matter; 80 percent of the code basically isn't going to matter at all performance-wise.
Which is to say: yes, newer instructions aren't widely used, but they're widely used where it matters. So at least I don't have the feeling that my new stuff (if you can count AVX as new) is not being used properly.
Indeed! -- Jason Craig
Am 28.07.22 um 13:44 schrieb Richard Biener:
Personally I'm not affected and would be fine with v2, but I'd be curious about what kind of benefit we expect. Most of these are special purpose instructions and I don't see their guaranteed availability to have much of an effect across the board. The RedHat blog mentions function multi-versioning as an existing mechanism, but then claims that it "applies only to specifically designated blocks of code. The remainder of the distribution still does not employ additional CPU features, so those parts of the CPU are essentially dormant." [1] The conclusion seems a bit far-fetched to me. Yes, only specific pieces of code use these new instructions, but they are only useful in specific circumstances. And where they're useful, they are already widely used, e.g. codecs and other "multimedia" software regularly use AVX and up if available. Let's go through the extensions in detail: * Code requiring a 16-byte compare-and-swap (such as via std::atomic<__int128_t>::compare_exchange_strong) would currently use libatomic's __atomic_compare_exchange_16, so use a mutex. More likely though such code would detect at runtime whether the instruction is available and use a different fallback. But CMPXCHG16B has been around for all but the very first x86_64 chips, so it's probably not a big issue. * SAHF and LAHF are also available since the earliest days of x86_64, but they seem to be mostly used by virtualization software. They're probably never emitted by a compiler and it's unclear what the benefit is of guaranteeing availability across the distribution. * POPCNT is certainly very useful sometimes, but it's probably in places where developers are well-aware and would add an alternative implementation where it benefits. Loop idiom recognition is sadly not up to the task; though some loops work, the most interesting case doesn't: #include <numeric> #include <vector> unsigned long f(const std::vector<bool>& v) { return std::accumulate(v.begin(), v.end(), 0ul); } Neither GCC nor Clang seem to lower this to POPCNT + plus handling the remainder separately (with -O3 -mpopcnt). In all fairness, that loop is pretty nasty: you'd probably need to rewrite it into a nested loop and then you might hope to recognize the inner loop as POPCNT. In any event, you can't currently rely on the compiler do magically make this a POPCNT, so you have to be aware of the possibility and then help the compiler to get it right. (Though I'd like to hear your ideas about making the compiler smarter here.) * Lastly, the SIMD extensions: - SSE3 seems helpful for floating-point FFTs and similar loads. It could also be used to speed up generic sums, but likely only after reassociation, i.e. with -ffast-math. (Interestingly though FFTW has only versions for SSE2 and AVX.) - SSSE3 consists of pretty specialized integer vector instructions that I guess are mostly used via intrinsics, though technically they could be emitted by vectorization as well. - SSE4.1's DPP{S,D} and blending could be emitted by vectorization, and insertion and extraction are natural matches for typical SSA instructions. [2] - SSE4.2 has text instructions that could be useful for string operations, but likely one would just use them from the standard library, where glibc has dedicated function versions __{str,strn,mem,strcase,strncase}cmp_sse4_2 on offer. So in most cases where we'd see such instructions after compiling to v2, developers were likely aware and had specifically prepared their code. At which point they (or we) might also add multiversioning attributes. That would also allow us to benefit from even newer instruction sets that v2 doesn't include (AVX). Apart from SSE4.1 and occasionally POPCNT I don't see much that would today be emitted by compilers for generic code. If this would only exclude machines that couldn't reasonably run Tumbleweed anyway I'd say let's go ahead, but a considerable portion of the machines we're planning to obsolete here are still good enough to run basic workloads. Aaron [1] <https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2021/01/05/building-red-hat-enterprise-linux-9-for-the-x86-64-v2-microarchitecture-level#architectural_considerations_for_rhel_9> [2] <https://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#extractelement-instruction>, <https://llvm.org/docs/LangRef.html#insertvalue-instruction>
I know I'm late to the party, but I'm still running Leap on a HP microserver G7 bought in 2011, which has this: Vendor ID: AuthenticAMD CPU family: 16 Model: 6 Model name: AMD Athlon(tm) II Neo N36L Dual-Core Processor
/tmp/test.awk CPU supports x86-64-v1
I believe there are still a lot these around and will be in 2025 (or whenever Leap 15 is EOL). I'm sure the project has some statement on sustainability somewhere; this decision would be a good opportunity to show that we are serious about it. Best Martin
Richard Biener composed on 2022-07-28 11:44 (UTC):
Intel has apparently released v2 as recently as 2017-Q1 at least (Kaby Lake): <https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/97453/intel-pentium-processor-g4600-3m-cache-3-60-ghz.html> I purchased mine new in box December 2017. # lscpu | egrep 'S Model|lags' BIOS Model name: Intel(R) Pentium(R) CPU G4600 @ 3.60GHz... Flags: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx pdpe1gb rdtscp lm constant_tsc art arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good nopl xtopology nonstop_tsc cpuid aperfmperf pni pclmulqdq dtes64 monitor ds_cpl est tm2 ssse3 sdbg cx16 xtpr pdcm pcid sse4_1 sse4_2 x2apic movbe popcnt tsc_deadline_timer aes xsave rdrand lahf_lm abm 3dnowprefetch cpuid_fault invpcid_single pti ssbd ibrs ibpb stibp fsgsbase tsc_adjust smep erms invpcid mpx rdseed smap clflushopt intel_pt xsaveopt xsavec xgetbv1 xsaves dtherm arat pln pts hwp hwp_notify hwp_act_window hwp_epp md_clear flush_l1d # lscpu | grep lags | grep avx # No avx or avx2. That means this PC won't be 10 years old yet when 15.5 support ends. If ALP requires v3, that means my (currently) 3rd newest PC will no longer be supported without a switch to TW, or someone else's stable distro release; or this CPU supports avx/avx2 but doesn't advertise it. My other Kaby Lake, same age, doesn't have this limitation: # inxi -Cxx CPU: Info: dual core model: Intel Core i3-7100T bits: 64 type: MT MCP arch: Kaby Lake level: v3 rev: 9 cache: L1: 128 KiB L2: 512 KiB L3: 3 MiB Speed (MHz): avg: 800 min/max: 800/3400 cores: 1: 800 2: 800 3: 800 4: 800 bogomips: 27199 Flags: avx avx2.... -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Felix Miata composed on 2022-09-11 18:17 (UTC-0400):
Richard Biener composed on 2022-07-28 11:44 (UTC):
Haswell presents the same situation as Kaby Lake: i3 has AVX/AVX2, Pentium does not: <https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/77773/intel-pentium-processor-g3220-3m-cache-3-00-ghz.html> Q3 2013 # /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 --help | tail -n17 This program interpreter self-identifies as: /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 Shared library search path: (libraries located via /etc/ld.so.cache) /lib64 (system search path) /usr/lib64 (system search path) Subdirectories of glibc-hwcaps directories, in priority order: x86-64-v4 x86-64-v3 x86-64-v2 (supported, searched) Legacy HWCAP subdirectories under library search path directories: x86_64 (AT_PLATFORM; supported, searched) tls (supported, searched) avx512_1 x86_64 (supported, searched) # lscpu | egrep 'Model n|lags' Model name: Intel(R) Pentium(R) CPU G3220 @ 3.00GHz Flags: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx pdpe1gb rdtscp lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good nopl xtopology nonstop_tsc cpuid aperfmperf pni pclmulqdq dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx est tm2 ssse3 sdbg cx16 xtpr pdcm pcid sse4_1 sse4_2 movbe popcnt tsc_deadline_timer xsave rdrand lahf_lm abm cpuid_fault epb invpcid_single pti ibrs ibpb stibp tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority ept vpid ept_ad fsgsbase tsc_adjust erms invpcid xsaveopt dtherm arat pln pts # lscpu | egrep 'Model n|lags' | grep avx # <https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/77487/intel-core-i34150t-processor-3m-cache-3-00-ghz.html> Q2 2014 # /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 --help \| tail -n17 This program interpreter self-identifies as: /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 Shared library search path: (libraries located via /etc/ld.so.cache) /lib64 (system search path) /usr/lib64 (system search path) Subdirectories of glibc-hwcaps directories, in priority order: x86-64-v4 x86-64-v3 (supported, searched) x86-64-v2 (supported, searched) Legacy HWCAP subdirectories under library search path directories: haswell (AT_PLATFORM; supported, searched) tls (supported, searched) avx512_1 x86_64 (supported, searched) # lscpu | egrep 'S Model |lags' BIOS Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-4150T CPU @ 3.00GHz Flags: fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx pdpe1gb rdtscp lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good nopl xtopology nonstop_tsc cpuid aperfmperf pni pclmulqdq dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx est tm2 ssse3 sdbg fma cx16 xtpr pdcm pcid sse4_1 sse4_2 movbe popcnt tsc_deadline_timer aes xsave avx f16c rdrand lahf_lm abm cpuid_fault invpcid_single pti ssbd ibrs ibpb stibp tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority ept vpid ept_ad fsgsbase tsc_adjust bmi1 avx2 smep bmi2 erms invpcid xsaveopt dtherm arat pln pts md_clear flush_l1d These not so olds, according to lscpu, also don't make level 3: 2014-01 AMD A10-7850K Radeon R7, 12 Compute Cores 4C+8G Kaveri avx yes; avx2 no 2015-09 AMD PRO A8-8650B R7, 10 Compute Cores 4C+6G Godavari avx yes; avx2 no An earlier thread comment may be right: it may be that 99%+ saturation of new amd64/x86_64 PC CPUs achieving level 3 may not have been reached before 2020. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On Sun, 11 Sep 2022, Felix Miata wrote:
Yes, Intel is known for too much product segmentation by fusing off perfectly usable features from some SKUs. Also for Comet Lake btw (Celeron G5900T). I've just not seen it being done for the Ice Lake family (Tiger Lake, Alder Lake), but you'll never know with Intel. So at least The Celeron G6900T (Alder Lake) now has AVX2 _not_ fused off (ok, they fused off AVX512 instead). Richard.
as currently using a twin cpu e52680 0 (v0) 64bit as my main workstation i know im going to be affected by this , its also got a rtx3080 gpu in there , using it for game design with unreal 5 engine and suse tumbleweed , as specs for machines go it still beats current cheap shop bought pcs spec and speed wise in most cases but like many users doing such , or blender type apps the use of old ex lease workstations is the only choice they have its not like there 20 + year old x586s or 32bit only , support for them is still needed so i dont advocate the dropping of v0 and v1 64bit cpus maybe a solution would be adding sufixes to the package managment of the rpms , I.E. _xvx as follows libthis-x64-1-2-93_xvx.rpm (in the main package list) but the the server holds .. libthis-x86-1-2-93_x0x.rpm (v0) libthis-x86-1-2-93_x2x.rpm (v2 or above) where _xvx is the suffix the cpu version is checked and the highest value avalable not greater than the tested version is installed so later when you want to add v3 or v4 or greater optimisations then add libthis-x86-1-2-93_x3x.rpm (v3) libthis-x86-1-2-93_x4x.rpm (v4 or above) although it may increase the server storage needed to hold the libs , and the load in compiling them it should offset the download bandwith on updates as only one is needed per system and provide the needed performance increase for those using grater than the v0 versions , it could be expanded on in future if other issues arrise say amd v5 ver intel v5 to say _xa5x and _xi5x if they do part ways on best optimisation methods adding a cpu test version option to yast (do once and set installed to that ) means unless you upgrade the cpu then its set (maybe a force version option to allow forced system wide installation to a lower version where v3 may have got installed by error on a v2 ) im shure that it should not be too hard to impliment that way , but i do understand the server storage increase may be an issue at the same if done this way it would be posible to guage the number of users on a spesific cpu version by the number of version spesific downloads , so in future you would know the percentage user base of a spesific version so it should not be two hard to find a way
added to my previous post ... if its true that this only affects code at compile time based on instructions sets available then the use of _xvx package sufixes should mean in real terms that some apps/libs may not have any advantages in a v2 or v4 compile as they do not take advantage of v2 or v4 instructions to any advantage meaning they may only ever need to be v0 or v1 versions of them provided and held on the servers keeping it so the most relivent higest versions are only ever installed while keeping support for lower cpu models thoughts ? david (achiestdragon)
On 3/10/22 01:17, David Powell wrote:
then the use of _xvx package sufixes should mean in real terms that some apps/libs may not have any advantages in a v2 or v4 compile as they do not take advantage of v2 or v4 instructions to any advantage meaning they may only ever need to be v0 or v1 versions of them provided and held on the servers
I wonder how many packages *really* benefit (that is, enough to warrant keeping them) from v3/v4 instructions? Mesa? OpenSSL? Could it would work by adding some architectures that are compatible with each one being inferior to the next, so moving from "i686, x86_64, noarch" to "i686, x86_64 (means x0x), x86_64_x1, x86_64_x2, x86_64_x3, x86_64_x4, noarch".? If I currently install an i686 package, would zypper automatically upgrade it to x86_64 if it could next upgrade like it does to nooarch (assuming solver.dupAllowArchChange is true.. I must admit, I have never tried)? -- Ben
Ben Holmes wrote:
I wonder how many packages *really* benefit (that is, enough to warrant keeping them) from v3/v4 instructions?
well the issue thats got my attention is on one hand there saying a move to v2 but at the same time saying the performance benifits are with v3 , at the same time though removing v0 /v1 hardware in favour of v2 is not gong to provide the performance increase to v3/v4 users making the whole issue rather pointless and putting a vast number of users in a position they need new hardware , it maybe fine for redhat to go this route since they market for new machines and business users (dell for example provides redhat as a o/s option on new machines ) but tumbleweed is mostly home/hobby use and most installs i suspect are on ex lease kit or self builds , its not fair on users to be left out because the cpu gets removed from the current versions , so although i see the need to provide more optimised code for newer cpus there dose need to be provision to suport the other cpus , the first most users will know is when they do there weekly zapper -dup , and reboot to find there machine is no longer supported , not that it will tell them why its not running , not that some will know what x86_64 vX means, but this also needs to be avoided , at the same time implimenting the v0,1,2,3,4,n version system now would allow not just v2 optimised code , but allow for v3 and 4 optimised code to be introduced then and only then (by looking at actual server download logs) will you see for shure if removing v0, or v1 is going to affect the user base practicaly its should not be hard to impliment eather a xvx sufix or i86_64_x(n) sufix and provide zypper support for that just like the whole x86_32 to x86_64 issue this has been brewing for some time , but untill now its just been left at the same time its posible to impliment it so it choses the best version to suit the chipset and update say a v0 to v2 even to v3 or v4 as the binaries are added to the servers the issue i think is ether server space , given the extra binarys needed , or workload of the compile farm for producing those binaries , (could we get an answer on this ?) by the sounds of it unless there is an advantage performance wise there should be no need to produce a v2 version of code over a v0 - v1 version , but there is more a need to provide a v3 version in some cases , and maybe in others a v4 also while still providing lower version support if this is not resolved now then i suspect it wont be too long before v2 gets dropped in favor of v3, for the same reasons users will not forget and swich distros to ones that do still support there hardware , if you dont know how many users then i would be cautious sorry to ramble on about it , but i know of a number of users that will end up with no machine to use after the switch to v2 minimum when it trickles down to tumbleweed , with no way to afford newer machines and no idea what they would need to get (second hand) if they could afford to , let alone be in a position to know that this is comming untill it does , probabaly account for about 5 to 10 machines made into e waste on that update, just on a small number of users i know of, and about 4 machines of my own (that i may of been able to hand down to them to help , other than there also going to be unsuported ) rather it only highlights the lack of actual performance increases there have been in the last 20 years, and "bricking " v0-v1 cpus for only marganal performance advantages is not going to be looked on kindly by the community that is mostly using legacy hardware of that type, and at the same time not providing the v3 and v4 optimisations is not going to be taken lightly by those that do have such cpus and are not seeing any gains
sorry to bug you lot again but been thinking could this be done by having multiple file lists ie a -0 -1 -2 -3 -4 file list xmls and a cpu capabliaty test added to zypper or call a function to set a flag on starting zypper that decides what one it is to be pulled to use and adding v0 v2 v3 v4 sub directories to x86_64 v0 would hold v0 optimised bins v2 would just be simlinks to v0 code (unless that is compiled for v2 where it could hold v2 compiled bins under the same name) v3 are simlinks to v2 dir unless its optimised for v3 as per above v4 simlinks to v3 code unless v4 versions are there ...etc. but at least simlinking is not going to be a duplicate file needing its own storage space , only where packages are explicitly compiled for a diferent version would that be the case having diferent file lists for zypper should ensure that it only selects the right -v one appropriate to the cpu test so should make this transparent to the user as the lists point to the right location in the repo for each sub architecture resolving the need to have actual apps/libs with differing names and the indepth need to have some built in zapper test on individual different naming packages by no means do i think of this as nothing more than a quick fix , but a simple fix never the less the issue i see using this would be mirrors that could generate full copies of each file when mirroring rather than sim links to them but as each users machine only downloads the single most relivant file list , and only the arcitecture spesific bins from that then bandwith usage is not affected also think it would be a good idea to add a command line option to force-vN (or something )so it could revert to a default v0 basic insall if things get borked up (tempted to let a number be entered by users on force , but this is probablay not a good idea ) where theres a will theres a way have fun
thinking more , diferent file lists sould work, then it also should be posible just to have the dirs containg rpms compiled for spesific version where available , without having to simlink other versions to that , each file list xml could be autoscripted (long term) to produce the list spesific to each sub arch without the need to simlink , at least it make managment of it easyer also keeping sub version spesific files in there own dir and having the file lists to determin the apropriate ones to install for that version , it will not only allow for v2 optimisations to be introduced but we could push ahead with v3 and 4 optimisations also in the same stroke without a need for alot of hard code changes to zypper or yast to achive it
Hello! On 7/28/22 13:44, Richard Biener wrote:
I assume the other distros are most likely Fedora, Ubuntu and Arch?
I think it would be good to know which Intel and AMD CPUs were the first to introduce x86_64-v2, so that users know which CPUs will stop working with Tumbleweed. Adrian
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz composed on 2022-07-28 13:50 (UTC+0200):
Richard Biener wrote:
What is it these functions add? What proportion of users with v2 support would actually notice any difference? Is this level in line with whatever Win11 requires?
+1 Does this mean dropping 32bit TW too? Which 64bit CPUs will be forced to switch to 32bit TW, and which to other distros? Support for older hardware has been a Linux tradition. Would it be feasible to have two 64bit TWs? If yes, one could go beyond v2, the other stay right where TW is now. I just finished zypper dup on a Pentium III with i810 graphics that Debian 11 fully supports, while Debian 12 roughly matches TW[2] in failing iGPU support from the Intel DDX[1]. :( [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1016151 [2] (EE) open /dev/dri/card0: No such file or directory (EE) open /dev/fb0: No such file or directory (EE) intel(0): AGP GART support is not available. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 4:50 AM John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <adrian.glaubitz@suse.com> wrote:
To the best of my knowledge, no community distribution has elected to move to a higher level yet. It has been brought up a few times in Fedora and Arch, but as far as I know, the change hasn't happened yet in a way that eliminates x86_64-v1 in these distributions. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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