Hello Community Destination Linux has talked about openSUSE as the most underrated distribution [1]. As in another review beginning of this year, it gives us the opportunity to learn and improve. Here are my takeaways from the show: - The installer and YaST could use some polish and fine-tuning. They were mainly referring to some eye-candy, but as well to functionality - In terms of functionality, Wifi, firewall and printer setup could be improved. While I mostly use ethernet when installing, I seem to remember that the juggling with SSID and authorisation type could be difficult for a less experienced person. Same for the firewall setup: why there is a 'docker' zone preset, but no external zone for ethernet and wifi is beyond my knowledge. This tool is great for experienced users, but leaves new users behind. I feel we need a more simple, dashboard like setup and leave the current one as 'expert mode' Printer setup....is a steady source of joy, and I have to admit, I struggle with the setup in YaST as well. How can we improve the workflow? It was mentioned (not in this show) that Fedora is way better in that sense - Neal, can you comment? Beside this, default setup requires root permissions for nearly all print activites. Do I want to give everyone root access on the family machine? Clearly not. Nathan pointed me to [2], I feel we should make this standard. Lets pick these comments from Destination Linux up, it helps to improve our distribution - and now is the time to prepare for Leap 15.4 What do ou think about this? Do you have distinct proposals how the workflows could be improved? Lets discuss in this thread before creating feature requests in bugzilla Have a great day Axel [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpwhWeBhpKk [2] https://cubiclenate.com/2021/03/20/user-friendly-printer-management-opensuse...
On Thu, 05 Aug 2021 12:13:51 +0200, Axel Braun <docb@opensuse.org> wrote:
Printer setup....is a steady source of joy, and I have to admit, I struggle with the setup in YaST as well. How can we improve the workflow? It was mentioned (not in this show) that Fedora is way better in that sense - Neal, can you comment? Beside this, default setup requires root permissions for nearly all print activites. Do I want to give everyone root access on the family machine? Clearly not. Nathan pointed me to [2], I feel we should make this standard.
One serious issue missing in YaST2 printer setup is being able to rename a printer. I was faced with that this week. One more thing I find tedious is that when using the wizard, you first need to complete the procedure to add a printer before you can select it for edit and change the options (tray x installed, default paper type etc). When adding many (different) printers, this adds serious time to the user experience. -- H.Merijn Brand https://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.33 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and Linux https://tux.nl/email.html http://qa.perl.org https://www.test-smoke.org
On 05/08/2021 14.13, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
On Thu, 05 Aug 2021 12:13:51 +0200, Axel Braun <docb@opensuse.org> wrote:
Printer setup....is a steady source of joy, and I have to admit, I struggle with the setup in YaST as well. How can we improve the workflow? It was mentioned (not in this show) that Fedora is way better in that sense - Neal, can you comment? Beside this, default setup requires root permissions for nearly all print activites. Do I want to give everyone root access on the family machine? Clearly not. Nathan pointed me to [2], I feel we should make this standard.
One serious issue missing in YaST2 printer setup is being able to rename a printer. I was faced with that this week.
I think the problem is that the underlying tools/libraries can't do it. I have the vague feeling that I managed to do it many years ago, no idea how. Editing some file perhaps. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
On 05/08/2021 19:44, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 05/08/2021 14.13, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
On Thu, 05 Aug 2021 12:13:51 +0200, Axel Braun <docb@opensuse.org> wrote:
Printer setup....is a steady source of joy, and I have to admit, I struggle with the setup in YaST as well. How can we improve the workflow? It was mentioned (not in this show) that Fedora is way better in that sense - Neal, can you comment? Beside this, default setup requires root permissions for nearly all print activites. Do I want to give everyone root access on the family machine? Clearly not. Nathan pointed me to [2], I feel we should make this standard.
One serious issue missing in YaST2 printer setup is being able to rename a printer. I was faced with that this week.
I think the problem is that the underlying tools/libraries can't do it. I have the vague feeling that I managed to do it many years ago, no idea how. Editing some file perhaps.
I think system-config-printer can do that, but I can't recall exactly (been a long time). -- Ahmad Samir
On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 23:00:45 +0200, Ahmad Samir <a.samirh78@gmail.com> wrote:
On 05/08/2021 19:44, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 05/08/2021 14.13, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
On Thu, 05 Aug 2021 12:13:51 +0200, Axel Braun <docb@opensuse.org> wrote:
[...]
One serious issue missing in YaST2 printer setup is being able to rename a printer. I was faced with that this week.
I think the problem is that the underlying tools/libraries can't do it. I have the vague feeling that I managed to do it many years ago, no idea how. Editing some file perhaps.
That is what I reverted to: stop cups, edit /etc/cups/printers.conf and rename the ppd in ppd/
I think system-config-printer can do that, but I can't recall exactly (been a long time).
Yes, it can, but that one is a serious drawback when working over ssh, as it is X11-only IIRC. -- H.Merijn Brand https://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.33 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and Linux https://tux.nl/email.html http://qa.perl.org https://www.test-smoke.org
On 06/08/2021 12.44, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 23:00:45 +0200, Ahmad Samir <a.samirh78@gmail.com> wrote:
That is what I reverted to: stop cups, edit /etc/cups/printers.conf and rename the ppd in ppd/
I think system-config-printer can do that, but I can't recall exactly (been a long time).
Yes, it can, but that one is a serious drawback when working over ssh, as it is X11-only IIRC.
X11 tools also run over ssh. Use -X or -Y. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 13:00:14 +0200, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:
On 06/08/2021 12.44, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 23:00:45 +0200, Ahmad Samir <a.samirh78@gmail.com> wrote:
That is what I reverted to: stop cups, edit /etc/cups/printers.conf and rename the ppd in ppd/
I think system-config-printer can do that, but I can't recall exactly (been a long time).
Yes, it can, but that one is a serious drawback when working over ssh, as it is X11-only IIRC.
X11 tools also run over ssh. Use -X or -Y.
Not when the server does not permit it. I know. I use X11-Forwarding all day everyday, but some site I have access to for customer-jobs forbid remote desktop and X11 forwarding. -- H.Merijn Brand https://tux.nl Perl Monger http://amsterdam.pm.org/ using perl5.00307 .. 5.33 porting perl5 on HP-UX, AIX, and Linux https://tux.nl/email.html http://qa.perl.org https://www.test-smoke.org
On 07/08/2021 18.14, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 13:00:14 +0200, "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
On 06/08/2021 12.44, H.Merijn Brand wrote:
On Thu, 5 Aug 2021 23:00:45 +0200, Ahmad Samir <> wrote:
That is what I reverted to: stop cups, edit /etc/cups/printers.conf and rename the ppd in ppd/
I think system-config-printer can do that, but I can't recall exactly (been a long time).
Yes, it can, but that one is a serious drawback when working over ssh, as it is X11-only IIRC.
X11 tools also run over ssh. Use -X or -Y.
Not when the server does not permit it.
I know. I use X11-Forwarding all day everyday, but some site I have access to for customer-jobs forbid remote desktop and X11 forwarding.
Ah, I see. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
Axel Braun schrieb:
Printer setup....is a steady source of joy, and I have to admit, I struggle with the setup in YaST as well. How can we improve the workflow? It was mentioned (not in this show) that Fedora is way better in that sense - Neal, can you comment?
In times of driverless printing, it actually should not be a hassle to do any printer setup any more. LWN has a good read on this at https://lwn.net/Articles/857502/ - and yes, that talks about Fedora. KaiRo
On 06.08.21 02:27, Robert Kaiser wrote:
Axel Braun schrieb:
Printer setup....is a steady source of joy, and I have to admit, I struggle with the setup in YaST as well. How can we improve the workflow? It was mentioned (not in this show) that Fedora is way better in that sense - Neal, can you comment?
In times of driverless printing, it actually should not be a hassle to do any printer setup any more. LWN has a good read on this at https://lwn.net/Articles/857502/ - and yes, that talks about Fedora.
Unfortunately, I was unable to set up driverless printing on Leap 15.2 with YaST2, I had to resort to enabling the CUPS webfrontend. From there it was a piece of cake. It is entirely possible that it is possible to set it up with YaST2, but driverless being the best choice for many / most newly available printers (hey, I would have almost installed binary crap drivers from brother's website, hadn't I discovered driverless printing ;-), there should be a much more prominent option in YaST2 to enable it, or even just have it always enabled by default. Then tell people to just look for "AirPrint" labeled printers. So IMO there is room for improvement in openSUSE. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
Le 06/08/2021 à 07:09, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :
brother's website, hadn't I discovered driverless printing ;-), there should be a much more prominent option in YaST2 to enable it, or even just have it always enabled by default. Then tell people to just look for "AirPrint" labeled printers.
even more since nowaday most printers simply accept pdf raw documents, like they did for postscript before (many of my printers of any brand uses apple colorjet driver :-) jdd -- http://dodin.org
Op 06-08-2021 om 07:09 schreef Stefan Seyfried:
On 06.08.21 02:27, Robert Kaiser wrote:
Axel Braun schrieb:
Printer setup....is a steady source of joy, and I have to admit, I struggle with the setup in YaST as well. How can we improve the workflow? It was mentioned (not in this show) that Fedora is way better in that sense - Neal, can you comment?
In times of driverless printing, it actually should not be a hassle to do any printer setup any more. LWN has a good read on this at https://lwn.net/Articles/857502/ - and yes, that talks about Fedora.
Unfortunately, I was unable to set up driverless printing on Leap 15.2 with YaST2, I had to resort to enabling the CUPS webfrontend. From there it was a piece of cake. It is entirely possible that it is possible to set it up with YaST2, but driverless being the best choice for many / most newly available printers (hey, I would have almost installed binary crap drivers from brother's website, hadn't I discovered driverless printing ;-), there should be a much more prominent option in YaST2 to enable it, or even just have it always enabled by default. Then tell people to just look for "AirPrint" labeled printers.
So IMO there is room for improvement in openSUSE.
I just switched my hp lasterjet network printer to ipp and driverless, which gives me now already a better experience than when configured through YaST and hplilp (I can now see the level of the toners in kde printer settings). i think the tools are there in openSUSE, but the configuring part is very confusing. Should YaST be used, or the web interface, of KDE/GNOME/etc desktop tools? For me installing system-config-printer on my Plasma system gave a better experience. I discovered this because I wanted to see if I could add a printer via systemsettings > printers and saw the error "org.fedoraproject.Config.Printing not found", which I think was necessary for some automatic ipp magic in my case. Should we not move from the yast printer setup as default to the desktop tools and make that experience as flawless as possible? Then the yast printer module does not to be installed by default and we remove one element that can complicate things? In my experience people without much computer skills or knowledge of openSUSE look into systemsettings if they want to configure a printer. Of course, making everything work without configuration is even simpler, but I don't know if that's possible. Kind regards, Cor P.S.: should org.fedoraproject.Config.Printing service file not be installed by default? Is it useful to file a bugreport for this?
Hello, On 2021-08-06 10:56, Cor Blom wrote (excerpt):
Should we not move from the yast printer setup as default to the desktop tools and make that experience as flawless as possible? Then the yast printer module does not to be installed by default and we remove one element that can complicate things?
Right. That should have happened a longer time ago. But "something" in openSUSE or SUSE didn't or couldn't make the decision to let the YaST printer module RIP (regardless what developers tell who know its code ;-) I think on a default Gnome desktop the default printer setup tool is the one from Gnome i.e. the system-config-printer RPMs together with udev-configure-printer. In general regarding the YaST printer module see https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1175341#c1 and follow the links therein (as far as possible). Regarding nowadays printer devices: I do not have an IPP Everywhere printer. So all I know about things like IPP Everywhere and "driverless" is basically only from hearsay. See also https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1169817 which contains some links to documentation about "driverless" and related things. I have only a traditional PostScript color laser USB printer. I hope it will continue to print reliably for some more years as it did all the time. I don't print from Linux desktop applications enough to know how they behave in detail. E.g. printing from Firefox works sufficiently well for me (after one learned to avoid this or that minor UX issue) and otherwise I use mostly the plain 'lp' command when I print every now and then. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 - 90409 Nuernberg - Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nuernberg) GF: Felix Imendoerffer
On 06/08/2021 13.15, jsmeix wrote:
Hello,
On 2021-08-06 10:56, Cor Blom wrote (excerpt):
Should we not move from the yast printer setup as default to the desktop tools and make that experience as flawless as possible? Then the yast printer module does not to be installed by default and we remove one element that can complicate things?
Right. That should have happened a longer time ago. But "something" in openSUSE or SUSE didn't or couldn't make the decision to let the YaST printer module RIP (regardless what developers tell who know its code ;-)
Eum... I'm not sure every desktop contains a proper printer configuration tool. And there is text mode too (think a print server). I always start configuring a printer with YaST, then switch to the cups webpage. I have no problems with the YaST module myself, except that it is very slow. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
On Sa, 2021-08-07 at 13:05 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 06/08/2021 13.15, jsmeix wrote:
Hello,
On 2021-08-06 10:56, Cor Blom wrote (excerpt):
Should we not move from the yast printer setup as default to the desktop tools and make that experience as flawless as possible? Then the yast printer module does not to be installed by default and we remove one element that can complicate things?
Right. That should have happened a longer time ago. But "something" in openSUSE or SUSE didn't or couldn't make the decision to let the YaST printer module RIP (regardless what developers tell who know its code ;-)
Eum... I'm not sure every desktop contains a proper printer configuration tool. And there is text mode too (think a print server).
The CUPS web interface should work in most environments. Some printer packages (e.g. hplip) ship their own configuration tools which work in text mode. For true command line heroes, there's lpadmin and lpoptions. I'm not against providing something more user-friendly, but we have to face the fact that yast2-printer probably won't be it. Cheers, Martin
On 8/6/21 4:56 AM, Cor Blom wrote:
Op 06-08-2021 om 07:09 schreef Stefan Seyfried:
On 06.08.21 02:27, Robert Kaiser wrote:
Axel Braun schrieb:
Printer setup....is a steady source of joy, and I have to admit, I struggle with the setup in YaST as well. How can we improve the workflow? It was mentioned (not in this show) that Fedora is way better in that sense - Neal, can you comment?
/much snipped/
Should we not move from the yast printer setup as default to the desktop tools and make that experience as flawless as possible? Then the yast printer module does not to be installed by default and we remove one element that can complicate things?
In my experience people without much computer skills or knowledge of openSUSE look into systemsettings if they want to configure a printer. Of course, making everything work without configuration is even simpler, but I don't know if that's possible. System Settings produces a small graphic with the words: "Print service is unavailable" and below that, "Bad file descriptor." Windows 10 Home on this same machine automatically found and setup the Epson printer, without any input from me at all. A trial of Mint on a different computer (before the lightning) also found and set up the Epson without any input from me. Why can't OpenSUSE Leap do the same? This is not a new printer with the new universal stuff that's been bandied about here--it's at least 5 years old.
--doug
Kind regards,
Cor
P.S.: should org.fedoraproject.Config.Printing service file not be installed by default? Is it useful to file a bugreport for this?
On 06/08/2021 19.08, Douglas McGarrett wrote:
On 8/6/21 4:56 AM, Cor Blom wrote:
Op 06-08-2021 om 07:09 schreef Stefan Seyfried:
On 06.08.21 02:27, Robert Kaiser wrote:
Axel Braun schrieb:
Printer setup....is a steady source of joy, and I have to admit, I struggle with the setup in YaST as well. How can we improve the workflow? It was mentioned (not in this show) that Fedora is way better in that sense - Neal, can you comment?
/much snipped/ Should we not move from the yast printer setup as default to the desktop tools and make that experience as flawless as possible? Then the yast printer module does not to be installed by default and we remove one element that can complicate things?
In my experience people without much computer skills or knowledge of openSUSE look into systemsettings if they want to configure a printer. Of course, making everything work without configuration is even simpler, but I don't know if that's possible. System Settings produces a small graphic with the words: "Print service is unavailable" and below that, "Bad file descriptor." Windows 10 Home on this same machine automatically found and setup the Epson printer, without any input from me at all. A trial of Mint on a different computer (before the lightning) also found and set up the Epson without any input from me. Why can't OpenSUSE Leap do the same? This is not a new printer with the new universal stuff that's been bandied about here--it's at least 5 years old.
Simple: the firewall by default blocks printer discovery. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
Le 06/08/2021 à 22:51, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Simple: the firewall by default blocks printer discovery.
I always thought that this should be open by yast printer... else most people simply stop the firewall, which is worst jdd -- http://dodin.org
Op 07-08-2021 om 08:08 schreef jdd@dodin.org:
Le 06/08/2021 à 22:51, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Simple: the firewall by default blocks printer discovery.
I always thought that this should be open by yast printer... else most people simply stop the firewall, which is worst
I have struggled with firewall setting in the past and still do. Because bug reporting is the only way to get anywhere with this subject, I wanted to file a bug on this and found the following ancient bug: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=808091 The links to features.opensuse.org there do not work any more. Has this moved to where features are now tracked? Or should a new feature page be made? Cor
Le 07/08/2021 à 11:08, Cor Blom a écrit :
I have struggled with firewall setting in the past and still do.
https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=808091
2013... I was said at this time that it was not possible to expose the PC to the net... jdd -- http://dodin.org
On 07/08/2021 11:23, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 07/08/2021 à 11:08, Cor Blom a écrit :
I have struggled with firewall setting in the past and still do.
https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=808091
2013...
I was said at this time that it was not possible to expose the PC to the net...
jdd
Firewall blocking ports by default is compliant to the GDPA (European General Data Protection Act). The rule there states that installation should be done with the maximum security settings, to be tweaked afterwards. Let's keep it that way. I also found that when installing Windows 10, the firewall is/was not automatically started. Hence the possible discovery of external services/devices and thus having a less secure environment. --- Frans.
On 07/08/2021 11.08, Cor Blom wrote:
Op 07-08-2021 om 08:08 schreef jdd@dodin.org:
Le 06/08/2021 à 22:51, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
Simple: the firewall by default blocks printer discovery.
I always thought that this should be open by yast printer... else most people simply stop the firewall, which is worst
I have struggled with firewall setting in the past and still do.
Because bug reporting is the only way to get anywhere with this subject, I wanted to file a bug on this and found the following ancient bug:
https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=808091
The links to features.opensuse.org there do not work any more. Has this moved to where features are now tracked? Or should a new feature page be made?
AFAIK there is no replacement. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
On 07/08/2021 13.09, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 07/08/2021 11.08, Cor Blom wrote:
Op 07-08-2021 om 08:08 schreef jdd@dodin.org:
https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=808091
The links to features.opensuse.org there do not work any more. Has this moved to where features are now tracked? Or should a new feature page be made?
AFAIK there is no replacement.
On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 10:30 AM Bernhard M. Wiedemann <bernhardout@lsmod.de> wrote:
On 07/08/2021 13.09, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 07/08/2021 11.08, Cor Blom wrote:
Op 07-08-2021 om 08:08 schreef jdd@dodin.org:
https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=808091
The links to features.opensuse.org there do not work any more. Has this moved to where features are now tracked? Or should a new feature page be made?
AFAIK there is no replacement.
Were old feature requests migrated?
On 09/08/2021 10.17, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
Were old feature requests migrated?
No. That would be some major effort to sort through all the old entries and find those that are still valid.
https://code.opensuse.org/leap/features/issues Were old feature requests migrated? No.
That would be some major effort to sort through all the old entries and find those that are still valid.
Is there a copy from just before features.opensuse.org was shut down that we can access with an opensuse login, e.g. created with httrack? There seems to be good coverage up to 2015/2016 on archive.org, the main page all the way to shutdown, but as archive.org shows a static copy with each page from a different point in time it is not the ideal source for migrating feature requests to the new platform. On the topic of adding a printer without YaST, I found https://web.archive.org/web/20150921020528/https://features.opensuse.org/ 313287 Joachim
On 09/08/2021 09.30, Bernhard M. Wiedemann wrote:
On 07/08/2021 13.09, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 07/08/2021 11.08, Cor Blom wrote:
Op 07-08-2021 om 08:08 schreef jdd@dodin.org:
https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=808091
The links to features.opensuse.org there do not work any more. Has this moved to where features are now tracked? Or should a new feature page be made?
AFAIK there is no replacement.
Ah! :-o ¿How can a user add a feature request to that page? I'd suggest a wiki page explaining. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/08/2021 09.30, Bernhard M. Wiedemann wrote:
Ah! :-o
¿How can a user add a feature request to that page?
I'd suggest a wiki page explaining.
Two steps - a) login b) click "New issue". -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.6°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On 11/08/2021 11.49, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/08/2021 09.30, Bernhard M. Wiedemann wrote:
Ah! :-o
¿How can a user add a feature request to that page?
I'd suggest a wiki page explaining.
Two steps -
a) login b) click "New issue".
Still, a button labelled "Help", or lacking that, a wiki page explaining the procedure, as we have for bugzilla, would be nice. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
In my opinion, the openSUSE installer really needs to add an option to automatically setup a dual boot similar to how Ubuntu and its flavors have. This alone has lead me to push more beginners to an official Ubuntu flavor than openSUSE because it's so much easier to guide them through setting up a dual boot of an official Ubuntu flavor than openSUSE.
On 06.08.2021 07:53, Sy retia wrote:
In my opinion, the openSUSE installer really needs to add an option to automatically setup a dual boot similar to how Ubuntu and its flavors have.
This alone has lead me to push more beginners to an official Ubuntu flavor than openSUSE because it's so much easier to guide them through setting up a dual boot of an official Ubuntu flavor than openSUSE.
You need to explain what Ubuntu does and what openSUSE does not. Otherwise this post is just another one in distribution flame wars.
I mean, it's quite obvious if you've ever installed Ubuntu. It provides an option that automatically sets up dual boots for you. openSUSE does not have anything like this. This is especially useful for beginners coming from Windows as it's even able to resize existing Windows partitions in order to make room for the install.
On 12. Aug 2021, at 07:49, Sy retia <simonizor@protonmail.com> wrote:
I mean, it's quite obvious if you've ever installed Ubuntu. It provides an option that automatically sets up dual boots for you. openSUSE does not have anything like this. This is especially useful for beginners coming from Windows as it's even able to resize existing Windows partitions in order to make room for the install.
I mean, it’s quite obvious if you’ve ever installed openSUSE. It (without an option) automatically sets up dual boots for you. There is no need to add an option when YaST already does it whenever it finds itself running on a system with windows present…
Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2021, 08:10:20 CEST schrieb Richard Brown:
On 12. Aug 2021, at 07:49, Sy retia <simonizor@protonmail.com> wrote:
I mean, it’s quite obvious if you’ve ever installed openSUSE. It (without an option) automatically sets up dual boots for you.
There is no need to add an option when YaST already does it whenever it finds itself running on a system with windows present…
Then maybe YaST during installation should have a page that tells people that it automatically does it - or we get bad reviews from stupid reviewers. Cheers MH -- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org OBS: lemmy04 Jabber (XMPP): lemmy@tuxonline.tech IRC: [Lemmy] on freenode and ircnet (bouncer active) telegram: https://telegram.me/lemmy98 keybase: https://keybase.io/lemmy gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102
Le 12/08/2021 à 08:19, Mathias Homann a écrit :
Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2021, 08:10:20 CEST schrieb Richard Brown:
On 12. Aug 2021, at 07:49, Sy retia <simonizor@protonmail.com> wrote:
I mean, it’s quite obvious if you’ve ever installed openSUSE. It (without an option) automatically sets up dual boots for you.
There is no need to add an option when YaST already does it whenever it finds itself running on a system with windows present…
Then maybe YaST during installation should have a page that tells people that it automatically does it - or we get bad reviews from stupid reviewers.
Cheers MH
enough to read the partitioning page... jdd -- http://dodin.org
Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2021, 08:47:24 CEST schrieb jdd@dodin.org:
Le 12/08/2021 à 08:19, Mathias Homann a écrit :
Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2021, 08:10:20 CEST schrieb Richard Brown:
On 12. Aug 2021, at 07:49, Sy retia <simonizor@protonmail.com> wrote:
I mean, it’s quite obvious if you’ve ever installed openSUSE. It (without an option) automatically sets up dual boots for you.
There is no need to add an option when YaST already does it whenever it finds itself running on a system with windows present…
Then maybe YaST during installation should have a page that tells people that it automatically does it - or we get bad reviews from stupid reviewers. Cheers MH
enough to read the partitioning page...
which the kind of reviewers that I'm thinking of obviously don't, and then there is another bad/erroneous review. It's easy enough to tell stupid people "don't be stupid" - but it hardly ever works. Cheers MH -- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org OBS: lemmy04 Jabber (XMPP): lemmy@tuxonline.tech IRC: [Lemmy] on freenode and ircnet (bouncer active) telegram: https://telegram.me/lemmy98 keybase: https://keybase.io/lemmy gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102
On Thu, Aug 12, 2021, at 09:12, Mathias Homann wrote:
Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2021, 08:47:24 CEST schrieb jdd@dodin.org:
Le 12/08/2021 à 08:19, Mathias Homann a écrit :
Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2021, 08:10:20 CEST schrieb Richard Brown:
On 12. Aug 2021, at 07:49, Sy retia <simonizor@protonmail.com> wrote:
I mean, it’s quite obvious if you’ve ever installed openSUSE. It (without an option) automatically sets up dual boots for you.
There is no need to add an option when YaST already does it whenever it finds itself running on a system with windows present…
Then maybe YaST during installation should have a page that tells people that it automatically does it - or we get bad reviews from stupid reviewers. Cheers MH
enough to read the partitioning page...
which the kind of reviewers that I'm thinking of obviously don't, and then there is another bad/erroneous review.
It's easy enough to tell stupid people "don't be stupid" - but it hardly ever works.
A pop up asking if you want full disk install or a dual boot with windows is a very good idea in my mind. Especially for users that are unaware what the defaults are. The YaST partitioner is not very beginner user friendly (at all..). And also I, for example, have no idea how to change sizes of partitions still. What I do for a (re)install is open a live ISO, install gparted, create the partitions in size I want and then during install choose use current setup and link the partitions myself to / or /home etc. People saying here that the problem is with the user are not very new user friendly. I do agree that openSUSE is great for giving the user options for the install, it’s not the most intuitive, compared to other (widely used) installers. But that’s just my 2 cents. /Syds
Cheers MH
-- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org OBS: lemmy04 Jabber (XMPP): lemmy@tuxonline.tech IRC: [Lemmy] on freenode and ircnet (bouncer active) telegram: https://telegram.me/lemmy98 keybase: https://keybase.io/lemmy gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102 Attachments: * signature.asc
On Donnerstag, 12. August 2021 09:45:25 CEST Syds Bearda wrote:
A pop up asking if you want full disk install or a dual boot with windows is a very good idea in my mind. Especially for users that are unaware what the defaults are.
The YaST partitioner is not very beginner user friendly (at all..). And also I, for example, have no idea how to change sizes of partitions still. What I do for a (re)install is open a live ISO, install gparted, create the partitions in size I want and then during install choose use current setup and link the partitions myself to / or /home etc.
Sorry, to understand you right: Why do you use the Live ISO? Is the installer (partitioner?) on the normal installation ISO not intuitive enough? Or do you always use the Live ISO and the installer (partitioner?) there is to complicated? I have to admit, I never used a live ISO. But I guess, it is the same as in the installed system. What I can say: The Yast partitioner in the installed system lacks functionality compared to gparted, when it comes to resizing and moving existing (mounted /) partitions.
People saying here that the problem is with the user are not very new user friendly.
I do agree that openSUSE is great for giving the user options for the install, it’s not the most intuitive, compared to other (widely used) installers.
But that’s just my 2 cents.
/Syds
-- Mit freundlichen Gruessen, Andreas Vetter
On Thu, Aug 12, 2021, at 10:52, Andreas Vetter wrote:
On Donnerstag, 12. August 2021 09:45:25 CEST Syds Bearda wrote:
A pop up asking if you want full disk install or a dual boot with windows is a very good idea in my mind. Especially for users that are unaware what the defaults are.
The YaST partitioner is not very beginner user friendly (at all..). And also I, for example, have no idea how to change sizes of partitions still. What I do for a (re)install is open a live ISO, install gparted, create the partitions in size I want and then during install choose use current setup and link the partitions myself to / or /home etc.
Sorry, to understand you right: Why do you use the Live ISO? Is the installer (partitioner?) on the normal installation ISO not intuitive enough? Or do you always use the Live ISO and the installer (partitioner?) there is to complicated?
Good question. Thank you for asking. I use a live ISO (usually Ubuntu), for a change of the partition layout and then boot into a net or dvd installer from openSUSE. And no the YaST partitioner is not intuitive at all to me. Only thing I can do with it is: 1. change the filesystem from ext4 to btrfs for example 2. Mount a partition for a certain boot point 3. Reformat a partition. 4. Choose to encrypt a partition What I miss is: 5. Change partition sizes 6. Have a visual overview of the partition layout 7. See which OS is registered to which partition. 8. A manual on how it works and what you can do. Plus how do the sub volumes work. Which do you need, why do you need them. What are the differences between them COW/noCOW for example. 9. Choose which partition you want to install to with the guided setup. 10. Choose the root + home partition size during guided setup. 11. MicroOS desktop specific: the default is to nuke the entire disk. If you want to keep windows you need to choose so manually. Plus if you want to auto mount a non openSUSE standard partition (like NTFS), you can’t from first boot at ntfs-3G is missing from the installer. And during boot there is also no option for probe other OS. So it you want to dual boot windows you need to do it through the F12 boot menu from the bios. /Syds
I have to admit, I never used a live ISO. But I guess, it is the same as in the installed system. What I can say: The Yast partitioner in the installed system lacks functionality compared to gparted, when it comes to resizing and moving existing (mounted /) partitions.
People saying here that the problem is with the user are not very new user friendly.
I do agree that openSUSE is great for giving the user options for the install, it’s not the most intuitive, compared to other (widely used) installers.
But that’s just my 2 cents.
/Syds
-- Mit freundlichen Gruessen, Andreas Vetter
On Thu, 2021-08-12 at 11:06 +0200, Syds Bearda wrote:
11. MicroOS desktop specific: the default is to nuke the entire disk. If you want to keep windows you need to choose so manually. Plus if you want to auto mount a non openSUSE standard partition (like NTFS), you can’t from first boot at ntfs-3G is missing from the installer. And during boot there is also no option for probe other OS. So it you want to dual boot windows you need to do it through the F12 boot menu from the bios.
The MicroOS Desktop team do not test, support, nor currently has any plans to support, the MicroOS Desktop in dual boot environments. A dumbed-down operating system with less customisation options (by design) does not exactly align with the requirements that supporting dual boot would bring to it. For people who want dual boot, we have Tumbleweed and Leap. -- Richard Brown Documentation is NOT the act of writing down what software can do. Documentation IS the act of writing down what software maintainers are prepared to support, and how to avoid needing that support.
On 12.08.21 10:52, Andreas Vetter wrote:
On Donnerstag, 12. August 2021 09:45:25 CEST Syds Bearda wrote:
The YaST partitioner is not very beginner user friendly (at all..). And also I, for example, have no idea how to change sizes of partitions still. What I do for a (re)install is open a live ISO, install gparted, create the partitions in size I want and then during install choose use current setup and link the partitions myself to / or /home etc.
Sorry, to understand you right: Why do you use the Live ISO? Is the installer (partitioner?) on the normal installation ISO not intuitive enough? Or do you always use the Live ISO and the installer (partitioner?) there is to complicated? When I did this, the reason to "pre-partition" with a different tool was, that the default suggestion of yast was goood, when pre-partitioned (e.g just have the second half of the disk empty or such, then yast would just grab this second half and use it for linux). If I start changing things in yast partitioner, I'm in the "configure everything on your own" mode and do not enjoy the "sensible default proposal" that I get with the pre-partitioned disk.
This has been years ago though, maybe the YaST partitioner is better nowadays. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
Le 12/08/2021 à 09:45, Syds Bearda a écrit :
A pop up asking if you want full disk install or a dual boot with windows is a very good idea in my mind. Especially for users that are unaware what the defaults are.
anyway it's a good idea: add a tick box: keep windows/remove windows (if windows is detected) jdd -- http://dodin.org
On Thu, Aug 12, 2021, at 13:28, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 12/08/2021 à 09:45, Syds Bearda a écrit :
A pop up asking if you want full disk install or a dual boot with windows is a very good idea in my mind. Especially for users that are unaware what the defaults are.
anyway it's a good idea: add a tick box: keep windows/remove windows (if windows is detected)
I would even like to propose 3 options: 1. Automatic dual boot 2. Automatic full disk 3. Guided setup (including advanced options) With no default selected even. /Syds
jdd
Le 12/08/2021 à 09:12, Mathias Homann a écrit :
Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2021, 08:47:24 CEST schrieb jdd@dodin.org:
enough to read the partitioning page...
which the kind of reviewers that I'm thinking of obviously don't, and then there is another bad/erroneous review.
It's easy enough to tell stupid people "don't be stupid" - but it hardly ever works.
problem, is that linux distro are evolving differently, at leats interface wise, so a reviewer used to ubuntu can't understand others distros... jdd -- http://dodin.org
* jdd@dodin.org <jdd@dodin.org> [08-12-21 07:30]:
Le 12/08/2021 à 09:12, Mathias Homann a écrit :
Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2021, 08:47:24 CEST schrieb jdd@dodin.org:
enough to read the partitioning page...
which the kind of reviewers that I'm thinking of obviously don't, and then there is another bad/erroneous review.
It's easy enough to tell stupid people "don't be stupid" - but it hardly ever works.
problem, is that linux distro are evolving differently, at leats interface wise, so a reviewer used to ubuntu can't understand others distros...
in which case the *reviewer* is not qualified to make a review. his output becomes conjecture and guesswork and hardly worth the time to read. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
On Do, 2021-08-12 at 08:57 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* jdd@dodin.org <jdd@dodin.org> [08-12-21 07:30]:
problem, is that linux distro are evolving differently, at leats interface wise, so a reviewer used to ubuntu can't understand others distros...
in which case the *reviewer* is not qualified to make a review. his output becomes conjecture and guesswork and hardly worth the time to read.
Even if that was generally true, it doesn't help us because people would read these reviews without realizing the reviewer's under- qualification. Thus bad publicity would be generated either way. But I don't think it's true. I can understand that, especially for users who a try a certain distro for the first time, it provides peace of mind to be explicitly told that the existing OS installations won't be overwritten. The YaST partitioner's summary screen contains this information, but much less prominently, and hidden in a long list of much less important actions like "Create btrfs subvolume XYZ". You basically have to infer it from the absence of an action like "Delete partition sdaX". This said, I have long given up reading distribution reviews. Lots of reviews focus on 1 installation, usually on a rather simple hw configuration, like a laptop with just a single disk (but more often than not with Nvidia graphics), 2 eye candy of the desktop, 3 ease of configuration of certain hardware, like typical home printers, 4 availability of multimedia applications and games. None of these items (except 3., maybe) are actually important criteria to choose a distro, IMO. Other aspects, like timely fixes for security issues and bugs, general stability, long lifetime, solid engineering, well-written, up-to-date documentation, good and friendly support infrastructure / community, and availability of up-to-date software and development tools are much more important (list intentionally incomplete). IMO these are areas where openSUSE is better than many others. However, comparing that in a review would require far more work on the part of the reviewer, which is unlikely to happen. So perhaps, because we know reviews are written the way they are written, we too should focus more on the 4 aspects above... Regards, Martin
On Thu, Aug 12, 2021, at 17:26, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Do, 2021-08-12 at 08:57 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* jdd@dodin.org <jdd@dodin.org> [08-12-21 07:30]:
problem, is that linux distro are evolving differently, at leats interface wise, so a reviewer used to ubuntu can't understand others distros...
in which case the *reviewer* is not qualified to make a review. his output becomes conjecture and guesswork and hardly worth the time to read.
Even if that was generally true, it doesn't help us because people would read these reviews without realizing the reviewer's under- qualification. Thus bad publicity would be generated either way.
But I don't think it's true. I can understand that, especially for users who a try a certain distro for the first time, it provides peace of mind to be explicitly told that the existing OS installations won't be overwritten. The YaST partitioner's summary screen contains this information, but much less prominently, and hidden in a long list of much less important actions like "Create btrfs subvolume XYZ". You basically have to infer it from the absence of an action like "Delete partition sdaX".
That’s not the case with every reinstall I’ve done btw. Sometimes the summary at the end does not show the partition info anymore. And that’s the only part that is missing from it. I can’t put my finger on it when that happens though, but I’ve seen it at certain times for TW installs and then a few snapshots later it worked again and a few more later and it’s not there. Always on the same Thinkpad T480s laptop btw. Not sure if there was a difference between net and dvd installs though.
This said, I have long given up reading distribution reviews. Lots of reviews focus on
1 installation, usually on a rather simple hw configuration, like a laptop with just a single disk (but more often than not with Nvidia graphics), 2 eye candy of the desktop, 3 ease of configuration of certain hardware, like typical home printers, 4 availability of multimedia applications and games.
None of these items (except 3., maybe) are actually important criteria to choose a distro, IMO. Other aspects, like timely fixes for security issues and bugs, general stability, long lifetime, solid engineering, well-written, up-to-date documentation, good and friendly support infrastructure / community, and availability of up-to-date software and development tools are much more important (list intentionally incomplete). IMO these are areas where openSUSE is better than many others.
+1 from me
However, comparing that in a review would require far more work on the part of the reviewer, which is unlikely to happen. So perhaps, because we know reviews are written the way they are written, we too should focus more on the 4 aspects above...
Regards, Martin
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 17:26:51 +0200 Martin Wilck wrote: <snip>
None of these items (except 3., maybe) are actually important criteria to choose a distro, IMO. Other aspects, like timely fixes for security issues and bugs, general stability, long lifetime, solid engineering, well-written, up-to-date documentation, good and friendly support infrastructure / community, and availability of up-to-date software and development tools are much more important (list intentionally incomplete). IMO these are areas where openSUSE is better than many others.
Agreed. Any ideas how to package that into 'The Reviewers guide for openSUSE' :) ? Someone in the chat on OSCON suggested something like that, IIRC Pedja
Le 12/08/2021 à 19:51, Predrag Ivanović a écrit :
Agreed. Any ideas how to package that into 'The Reviewers guide for openSUSE' :) ? Someone in the chat on OSCON suggested something like that, IIRC
good idea jdd -- http://dodin.org
On 8/12/21 2:47 AM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 12/08/2021 à 08:19, Mathias Homann a écrit :
Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2021, 08:10:20 CEST schrieb Richard Brown:
On 12. Aug 2021, at 07:49, Sy retia <simonizor@protonmail.com> wrote:
I mean, it’s quite obvious if you’ve ever installed openSUSE. It (without an option) automatically sets up dual boots for you.
There is no need to add an option when YaST already does it whenever it finds itself running on a system with windows present…
Then maybe YaST during installation should have a page that tells people that it automatically does it - or we get bad reviews from stupid reviewers.
Cheers MH
enough to read the partitioning page...
jdd
Never saw a partitioning page. I have always done it by hand before installing Linux (any distro). Q: I intend to install a second drive to an HP laptop to install Linux on. Will OpenSUSE assume that I want it on the second drive and not mess with the first? --doug
Le 12/08/2021 à 18:17, Douglas McGarrett a écrit :
Never saw a partitioning page.
fix your eyes :-( I have always done it by hand before
installing Linux (any distro).
this don't mean you don't see a partition page, all the contrary. If you work like an expert, don't expect the installer to know that
Q: I intend to install a second drive to an HP laptop to install Linux on. Will OpenSUSE assume that I want it on the second drive and not mess with the first? --doug
if you ask so, of course, as any distro I know jdd -- http://dodin.org
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 08:10:20 +0200 Richard Brown wrote:
I mean, it’s quite obvious if you’ve ever installed openSUSE. It (without an option) automatically sets up dual boots for you.
There is no need to add an option when YaST already does it whenever it finds itself running on a system with windows present…
That means when I have to buy a laptop with windows preinstalled and I obviously want to wipe it I have to do this in advance (repartition, format) before I can start the installation with yast? Did not have the problem yet, but good to know. Regards, Dieter
On Thu, Aug 12, dieter wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 08:10:20 +0200 Richard Brown wrote:
I mean, it’s quite obvious if you’ve ever installed openSUSE. It (without an option) automatically sets up dual boots for you.
There is no need to add an option when YaST already does it whenever it finds itself running on a system with windows present…
That means when I have to buy a laptop with windows preinstalled and I obviously want to wipe it I have to do this in advance (repartition, format) before I can start the installation with yast?
Of course not... Did you ever made an installation with YaST? Then you should know the very well known, very good partitioning proposal. And like with any proposal, you can of course modify it or delete it. It's just a proposal. Thorsten -- Thorsten Kukuk, Distinguished Engineer, Senior Architect SLES & MicroOS SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany Managing Director: Felix Imendoerffer (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg)
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 08:33:04 +0200 Thorsten Kukuk wrote:
That means when I have to buy a laptop with windows preinstalled and I obviously want to wipe it I have to do this in advance (repartition, format) before I can start the installation with yast?
Of course not... Did you ever made an installation with YaST? Then you should know the very well known, very good partitioning proposal. And like with any proposal, you can of course modify it or delete it. It's just a proposal. thanks, great. Some years passed since I did my last fresh install and I use zypper dup ever since.
Regards, Dieter
Le 12/08/2021 à 08:10, Richard Brown a écrit :
On 12. Aug 2021, at 07:49, Sy retia <simonizor@protonmail.com> wrote:
I mean, it's quite obvious if you've ever installed Ubuntu. It provides an option that automatically sets up dual boots for you. openSUSE does not have anything like this. This is especially useful for beginners coming from Windows as it's even able to resize existing Windows partitions in order to make room for the install.
I mean, it’s quite obvious if you’ve ever installed openSUSE. It (without an option) automatically sets up dual boots for you.
There is no need to add an option when YaST already does it whenever it finds itself running on a system with windows present…
exactly. I add to this than since the beginning openSUSE *do not* write anything to the disk before stating actually the install, that is before the summary of install it gives. so if ever one fear to have made an error, it's still possible to stop without any harm. The debian like distro, AFAIK, do write to the disk the partitions as soon as the choice of partitions is done, much more dangerous... moreover, in UEFI time, choosing what system is started first in done in firmware jdd -- http://dodin.org
On 12.08.21 08:10, Richard Brown wrote:
On 12. Aug 2021, at 07:49, Sy retia <simonizor@protonmail.com> wrote:
I mean, it's quite obvious if you've ever installed Ubuntu. It provides an option that automatically sets up dual boots for you. openSUSE does not have anything like this. This is especially useful for beginners coming from Windows as it's even able to resize existing Windows partitions in order to make room for the install.
I mean, it’s quite obvious if you’ve ever installed openSUSE. It (without an option) automatically sets up dual boots for you.
There is no need to add an option when YaST already does it whenever it finds itself running on a system with windows present…
IF the disk is big enough. I tried installing openSUSE on a 40GB windows 10 system (15GB used) and it decided to wipe windows completely, without additional notifications apart from the partitioning summary screen that says "remove /dev/sda1" ;-) It did automatically resize windows when I enlarged the "disk" to 100GB. I guess that's because of the selection of BTRFS as default which can not work well on small systems. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
On Do, 2021-08-12 at 10:24 +0200, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
I tried installing openSUSE on a 40GB windows 10 system (15GB used) and it decided to wipe windows completely, without additional notifications apart from the partitioning summary screen that says "remove /dev/sda1" ;-)
That sounds like a bug worth being reported. Martin
On 12.08.21 10:42, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Do, 2021-08-12 at 10:24 +0200, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
I tried installing openSUSE on a 40GB windows 10 system (15GB used) and it decided to wipe windows completely, without additional notifications apart from the partitioning summary screen that says "remove /dev/sda1" ;-)
That sounds like a bug worth being reported.
What's the bug I should report? I think it is just working as designed. Someone decided on BTRFS as default. BTRFS can not reasonably be used on less than 40GB. (Personally, I would never ever put BTRFS on anything smaller than 100GB but that's a different story). The installer encounters a device with 40GB "disk size", fully occupied with windows10. The installer's preselected default is BTRFS. So there's no solution other than "wipe windows". A nice feature would be "restart partitioning proposal with different parameters", as in: first change file system default from btrfs to xfs, then restart the automatic proposal generation. Maybe with rootfs on xfs or ext, anything over 10GB of space would be considered "good enough", so resizing windows would be a viable option with a 40GB disk. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
On 12/08/2021 15.40, Stefan Seyfried wrote: ...
A nice feature would be "restart partitioning proposal with different parameters", as in: first change file system default from btrfs to xfs, then restart the automatic proposal generation. Maybe with rootfs on xfs or ext, anything over 10GB of space would be considered "good enough", so resizing windows would be a viable option with a 40GB disk.
There is an option indeed to change the default filesystem and a few settings (like mount by label), which I use to change the default to Ext4. It is hidden in the expert partitioner, at the bottom of it. Or many somewhere else, I don't have anywhere to try and refresh my memory. What I don't remember is if it can then restart the proposal with those settings, because typically I do my own choice in expert mode. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
On Do, 2021-08-12 at 15:40 +0200, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 12.08.21 10:42, Martin Wilck wrote:
On Do, 2021-08-12 at 10:24 +0200, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
I tried installing openSUSE on a 40GB windows 10 system (15GB used) and it decided to wipe windows completely, without additional notifications apart from the partitioning summary screen that says "remove /dev/sda1" ;-)
That sounds like a bug worth being reported.
What's the bug I should report?
Having wiped the foreign partition without a big red alert.
I think it is just working as designed.
Someone decided on BTRFS as default. BTRFS can not reasonably be used on less than 40GB. (Personally, I would never ever put BTRFS on anything smaller than 100GB but that's a different story). The installer encounters a device with 40GB "disk size", fully occupied with windows10. The installer's preselected default is BTRFS. So there's no solution other than "wipe windows".
There are alternatives: - fall back to a different file system for this situation, or an otherwise modified proposal (e.g. just shrinking windows as you mentioned) - pop up a window saying that the installation can't be done on the available free space, and propose to wipe windows after user confirmation Both would be better than the behavior you reported, IMO. Cheers, Martin
Le 12/08/2021 à 10:24, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :
IF the disk is big enough.
I tried installing openSUSE on a 40GB windows 10 system (15GB used)
40Gb is not even enough for Windows 10, at the first update is will hard crash (it did for me, -> replace hardware) I agree the partition screen could be more informative jdd -- http://dodin.org
On 12.08.21 13:34, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 12/08/2021 à 10:24, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :
IF the disk is big enough.
I tried installing openSUSE on a 40GB windows 10 system (15GB used)
40Gb is not even enough for Windows 10, at the first update is will hard crash (it did for me, -> replace hardware)
This windows10 machine is running for quite some years (at least 3), it gets updated regularly and I use it once per year to do my tax. And I use (a clone of) it to test dual-boot installations. The used space on the disk is less than 15GB, so there is enough space left, so 40GB is plenty of space for my application. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
On Thu, Aug 12, 2021, at 15:44, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 12.08.21 13:34, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 12/08/2021 à 10:24, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :
IF the disk is big enough.
I tried installing openSUSE on a 40GB windows 10 system (15GB used)
40Gb is not even enough for Windows 10, at the first update is will hard crash (it did for me, -> replace hardware)
This windows10 machine is running for quite some years (at least 3), it gets updated regularly and I use it once per year to do my tax. And I use (a clone of) it to test dual-boot installations.
The used space on the disk is less than 15GB, so there is enough space left, so 40GB is plenty of space for my application.
I believe you, but windows 11 minimum disk space is 64GB. I think windows 10 had 32GB, so you even had 8GB to spare :) /Syds
-- Stefan Seyfried
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
On Thu, Aug 12, 2021, at 17:41, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
On 8/12/21 9:29 AM, Syds Bearda wrote:
On Thu, Aug 12, 2021, at 15:44, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
On 12.08.21 13:34, jdd@dodin.org wrote:
Le 12/08/2021 à 10:24, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :
IF the disk is big enough.
I tried installing openSUSE on a 40GB windows 10 system (15GB used)
40Gb is not even enough for Windows 10, at the first update is will hard crash (it did for me, -> replace hardware)
This windows10 machine is running for quite some years (at least 3), it gets updated regularly and I use it once per year to do my tax. And I use (a clone of) it to test dual-boot installations.
The used space on the disk is less than 15GB, so there is enough space left, so 40GB is plenty of space for my application.
I believe you, but windows 11 minimum disk space is 64GB. I think windows 10 had 32GB, so you even had 8GB to spare :)
I have Win 11 in 32 gb with it taking only 19 gb with 13 gb free (Virtualbox VM) - It can be done in 32 gb/
Didn’t mean it’s not possible, it’s just from their minimum requirement page [1]. /Syds [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/windows-11-requirements
/Syds
-- Stefan Seyfried
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
Le 12/08/2021 à 18:22, Syds Bearda a écrit :
I have Win 11 in 32 gb with it taking only 19 gb with 13 gb free (Virtualbox VM) - It can be done in 32 gb/
Didn’t mean it’s not possible, it’s just from their minimum requirement page [1].
don't forget a windows install do not have anything installed, in fact. One need many applications not by default, and often very disk consuming then any update need downloading more than 4Gb image disk (or files), and trying to keep the old content for choice (think of subvolumes). I had as small netbook http://www.dodin.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=Doc.ITWORKSTW891 I killed three of them before giving it away. Once it was simply hitting "update" when asked to do so. bricked... but your mileage may vary... (at the moment, openSUSE worked only in portrait mode, not handy with a mechanical keyboard in landscape mode :-( jdd -- http://dodin.org
On 12/08/2021 07.49, Sy retia wrote:
I mean, it's quite obvious if you've ever installed Ubuntu. It provides an option that automatically sets up dual boots for you. openSUSE does not have anything like this. This is especially useful for beginners coming from Windows as it's even able to resize existing Windows partitions in order to make room for the install.
But openSUSE also resizes the Windows partitions and automatically set up dual boot. I don't understand how you can deny this, open/SUSE does this for decades. However, you may prefer to resize the windows partition from inside windows. I do. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
Le 06/08/2021 à 06:53, Sy retia a écrit :
In my opinion, the openSUSE installer really needs to add an option to automatically setup a dual boot similar to how Ubuntu and its flavors have.
opensuse do this since the beginning better than any other linux distribution, I don't understand your problem... In more than 20 years of of SuSE... openSUSE, I only found *one* case where I couldn't install a computer (and I do this very often on my Linux user group), and the one was blocked on Windows jdd -- http://dodin.org
On 06.08.21 06:53, Sy retia wrote:
In my opinion, the openSUSE installer really needs to add an option to automatically setup a dual boot similar to how Ubuntu and its flavors have.
I just for you tried this: cloned a windows 10 machine and did a default 15.3 install on it. Just "next", "next", "next", "finish" style. Only options I selected were german keyboard and "minimal graphical system". For everything else, just defaults. And both systems boot fine with grub2 menu available to select.
This alone has lead me to push more beginners to an official Ubuntu flavor than openSUSE because it's so much easier to guide them through setting up a dual boot of an official Ubuntu flavor than openSUSE.
Well, if you need to do anything on ubuntu to set up dual boot, then IMHO it is already harder than on openSUSE, where you need to do nothing. Did you file at least a bug report for your failed dualboot installations? Or can you provide any information about those installations? -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
On 05/08/2021 12.13, Axel Braun wrote:
Destination Linux has talked about openSUSE as the most underrated distribution [1]. There was a discussion on this topic in https://www.reddit.com/r/openSUSE/comments/oz6sut/efforts_to_fix_the_shortco...
Here are some highlights
It's because OpenSUSE is a humble distro. And the world's dominant culture is anything but that.
The community is really friendly and helpful, but we aren't many vocal about openSUSE like other distros like Manjaro or Pop_OS!. I think that we are focused on working (or other stuff) and not on promoting the distro. Plus I've seen that people promote openSUSE but only when the user seems like they will like it or when they need it. This compared to other distros that get recommended no matter what the user needs.
This. I saw beginners asking for easy distros to begin their linux journey, and were recommended arch linux regardless.
I love opensuse, but even the small steps of adding packman so that you can watch videos online can be very off-putting to many. also every noob friendly guide online is only relevant to the ubuntu family, so even though openSUSE is quite easy, I do think twice before recommending it.
On 09/08/2021 06.35, Bernhard M. Wiedemann wrote:
On 05/08/2021 12.13, Axel Braun wrote:
Destination Linux has talked about openSUSE as the most underrated distribution [1]. There was a discussion on this topic in https://www.reddit.com/r/openSUSE/comments/oz6sut/efforts_to_fix_the_shortco...
Here are some highlights
It's because OpenSUSE is a humble distro. And the world's dominant culture is anything but that.
Maybe. :-?
The community is really friendly and helpful, but we aren't many vocal about openSUSE like other distros like Manjaro or Pop_OS!. I think that we are focused on working (or other stuff) and not on promoting the distro. Plus I've seen that people promote openSUSE but only when the user seems like they will like it or when they need it. This compared to other distros that get recommended no matter what the user needs.
It is true.
This. I saw beginners asking for easy distros to begin their linux journey, and were recommended arch linux regardless.
I love opensuse, but even the small steps of adding packman so that you can watch videos online can be very off-putting to many. also every noob friendly guide online is only relevant to the ubuntu family, so even though openSUSE is quite easy, I do think twice before recommending it.
It is true, too. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.2 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
participants (27)
-
Ahmad Samir -
Andreas Vetter -
Andrei Borzenkov -
Axel Braun -
Bernhard M. Wiedemann -
Carlos E. R. -
Cor Blom -
dieter -
Douglas McGarrett -
Frans de Boer -
H.Merijn Brand -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Joachim Wagner -
jsmeix -
Larry Len Rainey -
Martin Wilck -
Martin Wilck -
Mathias Homann -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Predrag Ivanović -
Richard Brown -
Robert Kaiser -
Stefan Seyfried -
Sy retia -
Syds Bearda -
Thorsten Kukuk