On Thu, 2005-11-10 at 11:00 +0100, Joachim Schrod wrote:

Kai Ponte wrote:

...

Mantel said in a brief letter, sent to recipients in a Suse mailing list, that he could no longer work for the company, which acquired Suse in January 2004.

"Too late for me. I just decided to leave Suse/Novell," Mantel wrote. "This is no longer the company I founded 13 years ago."

A Novell spokeswoman confirmed Mantel’s resignation but gave no further details. “We can confirm that Hubert Mantel has tendered his resignation to Novell. However, this departure does not impact Novell's Linux strategy or our ability to execute on that strategy,” she said in an e-mailed statement.

You forgot to cite an interesting citation from Mantel:

"I have been the maintainer of the Suse kernel for more than a decade now," Mantel wrote. "I'm very confident the Novell management will find a competent successor very quickly. After all, there are lots of extremely skilled people over there in the Ximian division." http://www.crn.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=173600703

Well, how many kernel developers are at Ximian, besides Robert Love? `lots of'?

Seems like Mantel felt that Ximian tries to take over SUSE and succeeds in it. Looking at the technical track of Ximian compared to SUSE, this is no good news. I think this will re-open the discussions of GNOME and KDE on this list... ;-) (I don't use either of them, so I'm unpartial to that discussion. But I'm not unpartial if there is infighting at Novell, with the Ximian folks pushing good SUSE engineers out of the door.)

Sounds more like desertion in the face of the DMCA enemy? At this point it seems like a situation likely to create a fork of Suse. -- _______ _______ _______ __ / ____\ \ / / ____|_ _\ \ / / | | \ \ /\ / / (___ | | \ \ / / | | \ \/ \/ / \___ \ | | \ \/ / | |____ \ /\ / ____) |_| |_ \ / \_____| \/ \/ |_____/|_____| \/

On Thu, Nov 10, 2005 at 04:04:27PM -0500, Jerry Feldman wrote:

On Thursday 10 November 2005 12:23 pm, Carl William Spitzer IV wrote:

...

Sounds more like desertion in the face of the DMCA enemy?

At this point it seems like a situation likely to create a fork of Suse. That's a possibility, but I'm sure that he has a non-compete contract. It is not unusual for a former founder to stick around for a few years after acquisition then leave. Hubert Mantel may just be uncomfortable in a corporate environment.

That probably could be the case. A lot of people who founded Linux companies aren't corporate people at heart. I just hope it wasn't something that drove him away becase he didn't like where he was or something of that nature. wherever he is I wish him the best. Sucks he's gone, the people who founded it should have been the people who stayed. I'm not a business guy, I understand how to MAKE a business work, but I don't know how one is normally ran, but if I was CEO of Novell, I would have made the founders of SUSE the heads of SUSE as if it had never been bought. I'd make them mini CEOs. And of course I'd give the security team a raise. They are cool guys and deserve it anyway. If I had to cut down on staff I'd go after management. they generally make more money (Take more cash to keep there) and generally do the least important work. -Allen

-- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Jerry Feldman wrote:

On Thursday 10 November 2005 12:23 pm, Carl William Spitzer IV wrote:

...

Sounds more like desertion in the face of the DMCA enemy?

At this point it seems like a situation likely to create a fork of Suse. That's a possibility, but I'm sure that he has a non-compete contract. It is not unusual for a former founder to stick around for a few years after acquisition then leave. Hubert Mantel may just be uncomfortable in a corporate environment.

OpenSource software and a non-compete clause in a contract .... I doubt the ire it would raise in its invocation would be worth it. Most of the Corporates sell glitter with the idea of making lots of money while the guys setting up the company in the first place made the best darn products and lots of money, typically the Corporation comes up with something that is not up to the old standard and makes much less and less money. I worked for such a company and saw it go from fame and riches to insignificance in less than a decade. Eventually the (mentally) short men on stilts self-delude themselves they are giants and when they start to wobble there is nothing left worth saving. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, licensed Private Pilot Retired IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks

On Thursday 10 November 2005 08:23 am, Carl William Spitzer IV wrote:

At this point it seems like a situation likely to create a fork of Suse.

If he does fork it, I'm moving to his branch in a heartbeat. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Sun, 2005-11-13 at 10:20 -0800, Curtis Rey wrote:

As will I. The plan would be something like this. Back up all data to disc/DVD. Wipe all hard discs. Install and config new fork/branch. Subscribed to new distro mailing lists. Unsubscribe from all Novell/SuSE mailing lists. Never utter the word Novell again if humanly possible.

KDE will not be dropped, please stop these useless threads, it is WRONG! But even if KDE were dropped, don't you think this is just a wee bit of an exaggerated reaction? Curtis, whatever it is you're smoking, you should know that it's most likely only allowed on medical grounds

On Sunday 13 November 2005 12:53 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sun, 2005-11-13 at 10:20 -0800, Curtis Rey wrote:

...

As will I. The plan would be something like this. Back up all data to disc/DVD. Wipe all hard discs. Install and config new fork/branch. Subscribed to new distro mailing lists. Unsubscribe from all Novell/SuSE mailing lists. Never utter the word Novell again if humanly possible.

KDE will not be dropped, please stop these useless threads, it is WRONG!

It is NOW wrong. But that seems to have changed.

But even if KDE were dropped, don't you think this is just a wee bit of an exaggerated reaction?

I'd be out'a here.

On Sunday 13 November 2005 03:54 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sun, 2005-11-13 at 15:36 -0500, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

...

On Sunday 13 November 2005 12:53 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Sun, 2005-11-13 at 10:20 -0800, Curtis Rey wrote:

...

As will I. The plan would be something like this. Back up all data to disc/DVD. Wipe all hard discs. Install and config new fork/branch. Subscribed to new distro mailing lists. Unsubscribe from all Novell/SuSE mailing lists. Never utter the word Novell again if humanly possible.

KDE will not be dropped, please stop these useless threads, it is WRONG!

It is NOW wrong. But that seems to have changed.

"seems" is the operative word. Speak not of things whereof you know not. Remember that FUD is the ultimate killer

I stated my reasons for holding my opinions. When dealing with people whose words change meaning from one sentence to the next in the same public statement, one can only speculate as to the true intent of his statements. The man clearly has an engineering background, he's not very skilled at lying. Steven

On 11/13/05, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

On Sunday 13 November 2005 12:53 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Sun, 2005-11-13 at 10:20 -0800, Curtis Rey wrote:

...

As will I. The plan would be something like this. Back up all data to disc/DVD. Wipe all hard discs. Install and config new fork/branch. Subscribed to new distro mailing lists. Unsubscribe from all Novell/SuSE mailing lists. Never utter the word Novell again if humanly possible.

KDE will not be dropped, please stop these useless threads, it is WRONG!

It is NOW wrong. But that seems to have changed.

It's now wrong because people freaked right the hell out and they had to surcome to the pressure from their userbase. Why would we have chosen SUSE in the first place if not for how they do things. To make them another RH is to destroy the reason so many of us have stuck with SUSE over the years. The threat of leaving isn't about KDE in a large sense it's about engineering decisions.. and this is a bad one. The fear is that they will continue down this path and at the end what was.. will not be anymore.

...

But even if KDE were dropped, don't you think this is just a wee bit of an exaggerated reaction?

I'd be out'a here.

I'd would as well. If they want to become RH then why wouldn't I use RH on my servers and Kubuntu on my workstations. SUSE will be nothing special if they carve out everything that made them worth using.. ie. the dev staff and the software they developed against. -Ben -- Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

John Andersen wrote:

On Sunday 13 November 2005 12:03 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

...

On 11/13/05, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

...

On Sunday 13 November 2005 12:53 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Sun, 2005-11-13 at 10:20 -0800, Curtis Rey wrote:

...

As will I. The plan would be something like this. Back up all data to disc/DVD. Wipe all hard discs. Install and config new fork/branch. Subscribed to new distro mailing lists. Unsubscribe from all Novell/SuSE mailing lists. Never utter the word Novell again if humanly possible.

KDE will not be dropped, please stop these useless threads, it is WRONG!

It is NOW wrong. But that seems to have changed.

It's now wrong because people freaked right the hell out and they had to surcome to the pressure from their userbase. Why would we have chosen SUSE in the first place if not for how they do things. To make them another RH is to destroy the reason so many of us have stuck with SUSE over the years.

Exactly. If they backed off (temporarily) in their headlong switch to gnome, it is only because the roar.

But the fact that they tried says they will try again to make suse into THEIR distro. They have always been a server company and I suspect in the end, that's the only part of the business that they want. Its vastly easier than putting out a desk top OS that 70% of the users download for free.

To Sle and John Andersen: You have hit the nail on the head! Unless we yell at them, Novell will decimate Suse desktop as soon as they can! Again, I refer to what they did to WordPerfect, and that until Corel stepped in , it was on its way out altogether!!

Le 13 Novembre 2005 22:21, Steven T. Hatton a écrit :

On Sunday 13 November 2005 09:52 pm, John Boyle wrote:

Don't try to get the average secratary to try Linux. It's not ready for that kind of use.

why not? there are already some secretary in the world who use it

We need to get the technically able people to use it. College students, systems administrators, etc.

primary, college... student use it

Steven

On Sun, 2005-11-13 at 22:22 -0500, Marc Collin wrote:

Le 13 Novembre 2005 22:21, Steven T. Hatton a écrit :

...

On Sunday 13 November 2005 09:52 pm, John Boyle wrote:

...

Don't try to get the average secratary to try Linux. It's not ready for that kind of use.

why not?

there are already some secretary in the world who use it

...

We need to get the technically able people to use it. College students, systems administrators, etc.

primary, college... student use it

We need better exposure at the grade-school and high-school levels. However, the teachers seem to be the ones doing IT in these settings, so they stick with M$, as that is what they are using at home, or so it seems. Mike

On Sun, 2005-11-13 at 22:21 -0500, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

That is exactly why Microsoft took virtually all Novell's business in a matter of about a year. Mircosoft treated a server as a software component, not an OS. They used what is called Client/Server architecture, where client components request services from server components. On their so-called "server" OS, they provided the same desktop that is available for their traditional end user OS. Anybody who believes they can compete with Micorsoft and not provide a usable, familiar desktop should get out of the software business today.

Client/Server has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. That design concept was around before Microsoft and has nothing to do with desktops or anything else in this discussion. A file server is a client/server design, and was used in the Novell servers Microsoft competed with And there are quite a few secretaries using linux on the desktop. In a managed environment, users don't see the configuration issues

Steven, On Sunday 13 November 2005 21:51, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

On Sunday 13 November 2005 11:59 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Client/Server has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. That design concept was around before Microsoft and has nothing to do with desktops or anything else in this discussion.

I disagree. The traditional concept of client/server was desktop client/{file,database} server. Certainly there were a few others talking about client/server in the sense that Microsoft used the idea, but that was not the typical meaning intended by use of the term.

...

A file server is a client/server design, and was used in the Novell servers Microsoft competed with

That is exactly what Microsoft decoupled. A file server became a file service.

That was by _no means_ a Microsoft innovation. We at Locus Computing Corporation wrote the first Unix / DOS transparent file sharing software in the mid 80s. Our people wrote the INT 31 interceptor (if I've got that interrupt code right) and a user-mode, Unix-based server. The protocol was of our own design. We also wrote the first Unix-hosted MSNet file and print server a few years later. In that case, the DOS-resident software was stock the MS module but the Unix server was still user-mode and portable. It was written initially for System V Release 3 Unix (using the SVR3 TLI, not BSD sockets, though we wrote networking interface abstraction layer) and was originally developed on 3B20 desktops machines (which were _very_ nice machines for the time). I was the architect and lead programmer for that project. And to be clear, it predated Samba. Microsoft invented nothing in the field of operating systems. While I believe all the Windows operating system kernels from NT onward are good software, they are not novel.

...

...

Steven

Randall Schulz

On Monday 14 November 2005 12:47 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 00:51 -0500, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

...

On Sunday 13 November 2005 11:59 pm, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Client/Server has absolutely nothing to do with any of this. That design concept was around before Microsoft and has nothing to do with desktops or anything else in this discussion.

I disagree. The traditional concept of client/server was desktop client/{file,database} server.

I really have no idea where you got that notion. client/server has always been a concept of communication between programs and division of duties/encapsulation, and never ever about desktop computing.

For one, from working with Novell NetWare Networks in the early '90s. I just checked my textbooks form college. The text I used in my MIS cakewalk, ur...uh..., I mean to say course, data from 1991, gives the definition of a client running on one box and server on another. The textbook I used for my network management course, dated 1994, uses the definition that Microsoft made popular with the introduction of NT. See Helen Custer's _Inside Windows NT_, dated 1992.

...

That is exactly what Microsoft decoupled. A file server became a file service.

I don't understand where you draw the distinction. Please note that a server, technically, is not a machine, it is a process running on a machine. Some people call it a service, some call it a daemon, whatever. It's been around since the mainframe. More or less the only thing that has changed since then is how the client and server processes communicate

But in the age of Wyse Terminals, mainframes, and mini-computers, there was a mental division between "the server" and "the clients" which typically meant clients (hardware) being very limited in processing capacity in comparison to servers (hardware).

The only, and I mean only, thing Microsoft "invented" in this respect was putting a desktop GUI on a machine running server processes, and I'm not altogether certain that was a laudable thing

Laudable or not, it was a marketable thing. It actually started with Windows for Workgroups 3.11. That's back when Novell were still the bigboys in the LAN server OS market. I built dozens of Novell servers, both hardware, and installation. I also built thousands of PCs to go along with them. Most of these PCs didn't even have harddrives. They booted from the network using a boot PROM, and loaded the entire OS from the Novell NetWare server.

...

Nonetheless, I suspect the percentage of secrataries or other admin personnel using Linux as their primary workstation is very low.

Of course, but your windows FUD is wrong nevertheless. It has been shown to be usable by non-technical personell. Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but usable to the point of indifference by people using it only as an office tool managed by others

And then I went to work for a contractor at the US DoD, Defense Information Systems Agency, Operations Process Improvement Office....

On Tuesday 15 November 2005 01:32 am, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Monday 14 November 2005 19:26, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

...

For one, from working with Novell NetWare Networks in the early '90s. I just checked my textbooks form college. The text I used in my MIS cakewalk, ur...uh..., I mean to say course, data from 1991, gives the definition of a client running on one box and server on another.

That's not a definition, just a common configuration.

I was referring to the glossary entries. Call them what you will.

Of course Microsoft didn't use that configuration back then, because they hadn't yet noticed that whole networking thing. It took them a while to catch on.

It's more complex than that. Bear in mind that Microsoft and IBM were at one time very closely intertwined. NT is actually fork of the OS/2 project. There was LANMAN long, long ago.

A client and server will necessarily run on the same machine if you don't have support for networking

Be all that as it may. What Micosoft did with WFW and then NT was to change the mentality of the industry. What people were calling client/server in the halls of academia and the acclaimed thinktanks such as Bell Labs and Xerox PARC is really irrelevant to what the average network administrator was calling client/server. It's not a question of where the technology originated; it's a question of who capitalized on it. Novell saw NT coming and tried to head it off with UnixWare. But the UI for UnixWare was unfamiliar and inadequate. I really wanted to learn UnixWare. But I didn't have time between my college courses and the demand by management that I remain "productive". I could learn NT easily because I already knew the UI, and it provided an intuitive interface. I didn't need to read the man page on ifconfig to get a network card configured. I also had existing apps that I could run on NT but not on UnixWare. That is going to remain a problem for Linux for quite some time. This in why I was infavor of Wine and am grudgingly in favor of Mono and DotGnu. It's also on of the big reasons I like Java. Do underestimate Micorsoft. Dave Cutler ain't no slouch. They've also bought Herb Sutter and Stan (aughta be ashamed) Lipmann.

The fact that there was a confusion in terminology doesn't negate the fact that they were still using daemons in exactly the same way as Microsoft used "services". I haven't heard of any machine being singly dedicated to a single task

You mean like a file server? That was Novell's biggest weakness. Their biggest chunk of the market was a dog that only did one trick for most people. Sure it could do other things, but NT could either do the same, or Microsoft would claim it could. You were typically ass-deep in Microsoft products before you discovered that MS/SQL distributed DB synchronization was vaporware. You can call me overly conservative, but one of the things I want to be sure of when I assert that Linux can support something is that I am telling the truth. Longterm, that is an irreplaceable commodity. Steven

On Tuesday 15 November 2005 6:34 pm, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

I also had existing apps that I could run on NT but not on UnixWare.  That is going to remain a problem for Linux for quite some time.  This in why I was infavor of Wine and am grudgingly in favor of Mono and DotGnu.  It's also on of the big reasons I like Java.

Do underestimate Micorsoft.  Dave Cutler ain't no slouch.  They've also bought Herb Sutter and Stan (aughta be ashamed) Lipmann.

Dave Cutler isn't all that great either! He never could come up with the code to stop memory leaks in VMS, nor did he ever write the needed code to occasionally recover memory in VMS. He's not the "super coder" you seem to think he is. Now, there's the truth. Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x

The really crazy aspect of all this is the fact that Ubuntu started out as a Gnome desktop only distro. KDE is so popular that Kubuntu was created replacing Gnome with KDE. Now, even Mark Shuttleworth the founder of Ubuntu is using Kubuntu more and more. See this page for more: http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-commitment.php Now, after having used Gnome for a whole morning - whoopee doo I hear you cry :-))) I really don't know which I prefer. I like both KDE and Gnome with all it's intricacies ;-) I think that SuSE Novell ought to really look at community preference with this one. Perhaps a new press release might be a good idea to quell the 'debate' :-) -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

Steven T. Hatton wrote:

Yes, perhaps she can use it, but what happens when she needs to prepare or use an Excel spreadsheet? Can she do that just as easily with OO, KSpread or Gnumeric? Are OO documents really MS Word compatable? I ran into that kind of problem when preparing my resume. I wrote my resume in XML and CSS, no flippin' html for me. But some employers insisted that it be delivered in MS Word. When I looked at the MS Word rendering of the resume produced by OO, (this was a while back) it really didn't look good.

I have used OO to read and write .doc & .xls files and have not had any issues. Also, OO v2 is even better than 1.x in this regard. If you're worried about how a file looks in Word, you can always install the MS Word Viewer in wine. Incidentally, if you have a bunch of old Word files, you might find that OO reads them better than the current MS Word. Perhaps everyone should be asking MS why they don't support an international standard. If they did, it wouldn't matter what app someone uses. Have you tried OO v2?

On Monday 14 November 2005 21:14, John Andersen wrote:

On Monday 14 November 2005 03:16 am, Kevin Donnelly wrote:

...

Can all this Novell FUD be taken off-list, please?  If you don't like SUSE, or fear what it might become, just stop using it.

With all due respect Kevin, I'm pretty sure you are not the thread police.

But my comment still stands.

This directly affects SuSE users, and had there not been an uproar we would be looking at Gnome as our principal desktop in the next release, with the inevitable decline in support for kde.

No ... take a deep breath, calm down, and read what Novell actually said. There has been no uproar, just a few people posting the same thing over and over, which is getting very tiresome for those of us who like using SUSE rather than inventing conspiracy theories about it. If people put as much effort into learning how to package things for openSUSE (a la Pascal Bleser) as they do into wibbling on about this, we would all be a lot better off.

This attempted change already cost Novel the principal developer of SuSE, and if you think that is a non-issue you are crazy. Mantel was a major asset, and the fact that he was driven away by a bunch of Gnome bigots within Novel does not bode well for SuSE.

This is speculation, and possibly libellous speculation at that. -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - Meddalwedd Rhydd yn Gymraeg www.cymrux.org.uk - Linux Cymraeg ar un CD

On 11/14/05, Ken Schneider wrote:

...

On Monday 14 November 2005 03:16 am, Kevin Donnelly wrote:

...

Can all this Novell FUD be taken off-list, please? If you don't like SUSE, or fear what it might become, just stop using it.

With all due respect Kevin, I'm pretty sure you are not the thread

On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 12:14 -0900, John Andersen wrote: police.

...

This directly affects SuSE users, and had there not been an uproar we would be looking at Gnome as our principal desktop in the next release, with the inevitable decline in support for kde.

Can you point out to anyone where it was stated that Gnome was going to be the default for suse 10.x or opensuse 10.x? You wont find one anywhere because the articles stated that the change was for Novell "enterprise" products meaning SLES and NLD only.

Yes, and a lot of us have said that with their monetary situation there will be a limited amount of resources. Meaning if they get strapped for dev guys and their main focus is Gnome then they will drawn away from KDE dev. I guess they could just get all those who say this isn't a big deal to make and test the KDE pkgs since it's not a big deal. Redhat puts more resources to their Gnome offerings and they're KDE offerings blow goats. If all of you who say this isn't a big deal you'd get what the bitch is.. and stop toss up what they released in their PR statement. The PR statement means close to shite. :) Oh well. I think this is the last time I try explaining this.. if SUSE does start to let KDE suffer then it's quite easy for all of us that this bothers.. to just jump ship.. silently. Doesn't mean much except that Novell/SUSE won't get the cash I put on my pcard for boxed editions. *shrug* -Ben -- Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

On Monday 14 November 2005 06:46 pm, Andre Truter wrote:

On 11/15/05, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

...

Oh well. I think this is the last time I try explaining this.. if SUSE does start to let KDE suffer then it's quite easy for all of us that this bothers.. to just jump ship.. silently. Doesn't mean much except that Novell/SUSE won't get the cash I put on my pcard for boxed editions. *shrug*

I disagree. If Novell do actually anounce that they drop KDE, then that is the time to really speak up and tell them what you think of it. OpenSUSE is supposed to be a community project and the comminuty should give input on things happening there.

Tell ya what, why don't you show me how easy it is. Write a class editing widget that modifies both the interface and the implementation, taking into account the baseclass hierarchy as well as the current scope. Provide scope aware code completion in the widget, and synchronize the comments with the code. Also be sure the declaration order is the same as the order that variables appear in the member initialization list. http://www.kdevelop.org/HEAD/doc/api/html/ast_8h-source.html Steven

On Monday 14 November 2005 02:46 pm, Andre Truter wrote:

The community do not have direct influence on what happens with SLES and NLD, but I am sure that if the GNOME-centric versions comes out and it is a flop, the community should point that out also.

I hate to point out the obvious, but the "community" is one and the same as the purchasers of SLES. These are the people who recommend SLES to corporate users. If the Community abandons SUSE (for what ever reason) then SLES will be short lived. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On 11/15/05, John Andersen wrote:

On Monday 14 November 2005 02:46 pm, Andre Truter wrote:

...

The community do not have direct influence on what happens with SLES and NLD, but I am sure that if the GNOME-centric versions comes out and it is a flop, the community should point that out also.

I hate to point out the obvious, but the "community" is one and the same as the purchasers of SLES. These are the people who recommend SLES to corporate users.

If the Community abandons SUSE (for what ever reason) then SLES will be short lived.

I meant that the community does not have a direct influence on SLES or NLD, like we have with OpenSUSE. We do, however have an indirect influence. But, then the majority of the community do not use SLES. SLES and NLD is mainly marketed by Novell, not the community. The way I see it is rather that the community use SUSE Linux or OpenSUSE and if you have influence in a corporation, then you will push SLES because it is related to SUSE Linux. Seeing that SLES is a server solution, the desktop used with it should not be an issue, as you should not even install a giu on it. Why do you want a GUI on a server? It just adds overhead. All Linux/UNIX servers that I have ever worked on does not have a monitor, keyboard or mouse conected. I nearly fell off my chair when I installed SLES for the first time and the installer asked me which desktop to install. I thought I had the NLD CD in there. I don't know why they even have the desktop choises as a default in SLES. -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~

On Tuesday 15 November 2005 3:45 am, Curtis Rey wrote:

On Mon November 14 2005 23:25, Andre Truter wrote:

...

I don't know why they even have the desktop choises as a default in SLES.

It's for all those MSCE drones that can't figure out what to do in a Nix CLI.

'Know what......bet that's the reason, alright! :) Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x

On Tuesday 15 November 2005 7:18 pm, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

...

...

It's for all those MSCE drones that can't figure out what to do in a Nix CLI.

'Know what......bet that's the reason, alright! :)

But people need to take that seriously.  Anymore, I rarely use the KDM installed on my servers.  Since KSnuffle was abandoned, I have far less reason for having the KDE on a server.  But for a long time, I felt more comfortable being able to get a complete desktop at the server console.  My servers boot to init 3 these days.

So do I, but I also use KDE frequently. The only time I setup with init 5 is for a client box.

Call it training wheels, or whatever other disparaging epithet you care to give it, but noobs often need that kind of transition assistance.  We have to provied a recovery path for MCSE's and the like.

They need to start out "right," and IMHO, that means at console. I start out right away showing them how to write scripts.....something simple and how to make it executable. I show them how and why drives were partitianed the way I did them, etc. 'Basics that won't be obvious in a manual that they need NOW.

Also, there are many cases in which a GUI can consolidate information and/or controls in ways that simply cannot be done effectively with traditional TTY interfaces.

Yepper.........one reason I'm a BIG KDE supporter. ;) Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x

On 11/16/05, Peter Van Lone wrote:

ding ding ding! We finally have a winner!

Hello, "world of supposed linux boosters"! --- if you want linux to dominate the market, that means it MUST be accessible. To those who just need to get their work done, but have not the spare time to devote 600 hours to learning the ins and outs of the various CLI commands and config files. Please.

I've been doing networking and computer support since the late 80's ..... all of it in netware/windows world. I am not a linux/grep/regex/bash script etc .... pro. I'm "making the shift" because I believe that the OSS model makes sense and because I think it is in my customers best interests to have choices.

But I don't have alot of extra time to develop some the expertise that I know I will eventually have. So, I put the gui on servers .... I configure them to boot to run level 3, but I know that startx is but a command away.

Is it helpful to have to listen to bigots spout about "stoopid noobies" that need a GUI on a server? No. Does it make me feel any less smart? No. It simply lessens my enthusiasm for getting some of my customers exposed to this list, for example, because it can be DISCOURAGING rather than helpful. For me ... I could care less.

Many of those "MCSE drones" are my customers, and potential customers ... and many are very very smart very very busy people. Want to guess whom I think is the "drone" or the "moron"?

But if you want to grow linux? ... grow up!

It IS grown up. I read an article by a "windows drone" saying X86 OS X is EXACTLY fit for "Joe Sixpack" and guess what .. distros like SUSE/Redhat/Ubuntu are as good as OS X right bloody now. So they must be as good as Windows XP is right now.. since he said OS X was as good as XP if not better. We do NOT have to cut out shellscripting, the shell and everything else that makes UNIX/Linux great in order to bring the Windows weenies onboard.. OS X is 1000000000x easier to use then XP is.. after all it's designed for "art fags" right? And let me tell you this. I can write bash, zsh, tcsh or sh scripts under OS X on my Powerbook or I can use Applescript to do what I need to do.. or I can point and click to get things done. So KDE/Gnome/Linux are now just as simple as any Mac OS X machine I've used and so I'd give up on the argument that Linux has to become dumbed down drek just to be used by MCSE's. We in the Linux community have listened to this argument over and over and over again .. making things easier and easier for "busy" people.. and year after year the bar gets raised higher and higher yet Windows stays the same for the most part. If my wife who is an art director can point and click as well as grep and pipe.. then the windows geeks can do it as well. Pleasing PHB's and MCSE's is like herding cats.. none shall be caught until they wish to BE caught. If it were up to these people.. they run Linux developers ragged until they'd just explode. I don't mean to sound crass or cranky about it. I've just heard this argument year in and year out for 10 years... and when one can install SUSE with a couple mouse clicks and not know much about the install.. I don't see how it can get any bloody easier. The same goes for OS X.. a couple mouse clicks and you've got a full fledged GUI'ed UNIX OS that can do what the user needs.. whether it's via CLI or with a rodent. So if both UNIX based OS's are so easy.. it must be something else holding back those "..very very smart very very busy people." such as misperception, conditioning and an unwillingness to change no matter what the cost is... other wise there is no real explanation for it. Because the commercial UNIX OS's are BEYOND easy to use... with maybe the exception being Solaris. ;D I just don't think paper admins such as the people they gave MCSE's to for the last 5 years of the .com boom will EVER get it... that is until the close their mouths and open their eyes. And I doubt any Linux distro will EVER work for them.. even if it had the Microsoft Logo on the box. And if they are offended by such talk.. so be it. It's about time we stop "steppin and fetchin" and say " Yessm.. massa.. we's gonna do it right up good for ya. " Because they will never be satisfied. Ah well. Such is life. -ben -- Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

On Wednesday 16 November 2005 8:18 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

I just don't think paper admins such as the people they gave MCSE's to for the last 5 years of the .com boom will EVER get it... that is until the close their mouths and open their eyes. And I doubt any Linux distro will EVER work for them.. even if it had the Microsoft Logo on the box. And if they are offended by such talk.. so be it. It's about time we stop "steppin and fetchin" and say " Yessm.. massa.. we's gonna do it right up good for ya. " Because they will never be satisfied.

Right on, Ben! EXACTLY right!! Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x

On 11/17/05, Peter Van Lone wrote:

...

...

Also, there are many cases inwhich a GUI can consolidate information and/or controls in ways that simply cannot be done effectively with traditional TTY interfaces.

ding ding ding! We finally have a winner!

Hello, "world of supposed linux boosters"! --- if you want linux to dominate the market, that means it MUST be accessible. To those who just need to get their work done, but have not the spare time to devote 600 hours to learning the ins and outs of the various CLI commands and config files. Please.

Ummm.. I did not need 600 hours to learn any inns and outs. I started off with Windows NT and then I had to work on a UNIX project. The people gave me a list of the basic commands, like ls, telnet, etc and quickly showned me how to use them. ditto it aint that hard to learn most of the stuff. watch and listen.. And if you want to use a gui to do everything, go ahead.. Linux *IS* about choices, your choices... you can do pretty much whatever you want in all flavours of it. Pick one and start playing. MY husband went to

On Thursday 17 November 2005 12:25 am, Andre Truter wrote: linux after watching a box that had ( don't laugh you guys! I'm warning you ;-D ) Corel's linux on it .. I got it because I figured he might want to try it and it had a copy of Word Perfect on it as well ) it sat over in a corner and never ever was rebooted... That impressed the hell out of him... fast forward to: Along came Sircan and windows wasn't ever put back on his box... he had been dual booting, but disobeyed on of my iron clad you must never ever do this rules. He went to the net and downloaded his email.. and boom it blew up his computer.. which also didn't have a backup of his last two weeks work on it ! Most of the group on this list have similar stories..

Within a few monts I was soing most of my work on an HP Envizex terminal and 4 HP servers. Within a year I had moved over to Linux as my default OS at home.

I also did not have time to learn all kinds of cli commands and scripting, but I did learn it between all the other work, because I realised that it made my work easier.

AND even if you don't stop and study, believe me sooner or later if you are any sort of admin you WILL learn most of the stuff.. someone will tell you a trick or send you a script they wrote, and the next thing you know.. you will know, ya know? ;-)

...

But if you want to grow linux? ... grow up!

We are growing Linux.. we, most of it will install some version on the computer of nearly everyone of our nearest and dearest, if only to stay sane and not have to spend every spare minute rescuing their latest windows setup from whatever l337 thing someone sent them cuz "it's sooo , like, kooli man"

PS: I have grown up and in the process I leant how to use a network and running graphical tools from a remote system on my own desktop. Makes life sooo much easier. And we aren't even going to go to when you saw your first computer, or when you got your hands on one.. or when some professorial type allowed you to touch one...

True they are now much closer to toys than anyone will admit. Still it doesn't hurt to learn things that make it tick. And there hasn't been any problems for anyone that has had linux put on their computers. Barring a few of the How do I get foo.com to let me in when it says it only allows IE. Try it, get one of the baby step versions, and put it on a windows users box.. ( It even installs and asks you if you want to save the Windows partition, should they shrink or erase it? When was the last time MS did that for any non MS system? "Alex , the answer is What is the 12th of Never?? ) Just show them the "new" browsers and the email program and you will probably not hear of any more problems of the "Will you come over RIGHT NOW and fix my computer please?" variety. -- j Morning, Evolution in action. only the grumpy will survive Don't try to change my attitude or rearrange my latitude; Don't tell me what I think, I got to get me some boat drinks

On 11/17/05, Peter Van Lone wrote:

right .. it's called experience. 600 hours is only 15 weeks of experience. I don't have a problem with it, and did not complain. What I orginally said was "stop calling names of linux newbies that rely/use the GUI on a server to get work done"

Yes, I agree that calling newbies names for using a GUI is wrong. I have seen a number of newbies that start out with installing a GUI on a server, until I show them that it is not really needed. Now they run GUI stuff they need over ssh to thier workstations. :-) I think one thing where MS damaged people is by instilling this idea that a good server should have a GUI. When I was still a Windows user, I used to think of UNIX as an old, outdated system, with a horrible user-interface. All mono-chrome.. That was until I actually saw a real live UNIX machine and worked on it. It opened my eyes. I was lucky, I suppose, that my first interaction with UNIX was from a Sun Sparcstation, running CDE, with telnet sessions to an HP development server. I never really used the Sun box for anything else, than it's X-server, so I could run Nedit (a graphical editor) on the HP box.

lists of people carping about "noobs that put a gui on a server" ... well, damn ... if it makes the transition and traslation to linux easier why, as a linux advocate, would you (not you personally) want to be so freaking hostile about it?

I don't have a problem with noobs putting a GUI on a server, I have a problem with experienced admins running a GUI on a server. (I did not mean to offend noobs, sorry) I also have a problem with SLES defaulting to a GUI install. I expected it to default to the minimal install, or options like "Webserver", "Mail server", "File Server", etc and then you pick the options you want. But the default Graphical desktop install threw me a bit. I thought about it a bit and I can see valid reasons for an experienced sysadmin to install a full desktop on SLES: 1) If you want to use it for a desktop workstation (You lost all your SUSE Linux or NLD media or something) :-) 2) You set up a LTSP server where people will run desktops from dumb terminals. -- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~

On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 19:46 +0200, Andre Truter wrote:

On 11/17/05, Peter Van Lone wrote:

...

right .. it's called experience. 600 hours is only 15 weeks of experience. I don't have a problem with it, and did not complain. What I orginally said was "stop calling names of linux newbies that rely/use the GUI on a server to get work done"

Yes, I agree that calling newbies names for using a GUI is wrong. I have seen a number of newbies that start out with installing a GUI on a server, until I show them that it is not really needed. Now they run GUI stuff they need over ssh to thier workstations. :-)

I think one thing where MS damaged people is by instilling this idea that a good server should have a GUI. When I was still a Windows user, I used to think of UNIX as an old, outdated system, with a horrible user-interface. All mono-chrome.. That was until I actually saw a real live UNIX machine and worked on it. It opened my eyes. I was lucky, I suppose, that my first interaction with UNIX was from a Sun Sparcstation, running CDE, with telnet sessions to an HP development server. I never really used the Sun box for anything else, than it's X-server, so I could run Nedit (a graphical editor) on the HP box.

...

lists of people carping about "noobs that put a gui on a server" ... well, damn ... if it makes the transition and traslation to linux easier why, as a linux advocate, would you (not you personally) want to be so freaking hostile about it?

I don't have a problem with noobs putting a GUI on a server, I have a problem with experienced admins running a GUI on a server. (I did not mean to offend noobs, sorry)

Then why offend experienced admins that use a GUI to admin a machine? Not all configs are easily handled via the CLI and there are fewer possibilities of making errors using a well written GUI that uses syntax checking. I happen to use and like using webmin for doing a lot of my admin work, not all but enough. Actually makes it easier to admin postfix. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

On 11/17/05, Ken Schneider wrote:

On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 19:46 +0200, Andre Truter wrote:

...

On 11/17/05, Peter Van Lone wrote:

I don't have a problem with noobs putting a GUI on a server, I have a

...

problem with experienced admins running a GUI on a server. (I did not mean to offend noobs, sorry)

Then why offend experienced admins that use a GUI to admin a machine? Not all configs are easily handled via the CLI and there are fewer possibilities of making errors using a well written GUI that uses syntax checking. I happen to use and like using webmin for doing a lot of my admin work, not all but enough. Actually makes it easier to admin postfix.

Well, I never said I had issue with new users putting X on their servers or using things like YaST to admin their machines.. it was not what I was saying with the email I sent. What I had taken offense to was the same ole same ole crap of saying Linux was hard because people had to actually learn the methodology of UNIX/Linux. It really irks me when recent converts come onto this list and start talking the same ole tired bullshit about how Linux should change to fit their needs.. if Windows suited their needs then they wouldn't be looking elsewhere. They obviously had to learn Wndows, Netware or whatever at some point so they shouldn't complain that they have to read HowTo's or something like the Linux Bible to get going. This is complicated stuff because it can be anything the user wants it to be... and if they can find a GUI config tool to get their work done.. more power to them. I use Postfix Enabler on my Powerbook because it makes setting up Postfix so easy a monkey could do it. Again, my objection to earlier emails wasn't the use of a UI but the dissing of Linux because it is not Windows and the complaint that they might have to RTFM or ask someone how to do something that they could do in 30 minutes under Windows because they had years of experience using Windows. One doesn't just walk into a room and start talking shit about the host and other guests .. being humble and willing to do a bit of leg work is respectable.. saying that everyone in the room should immediately take up their way of thinking just because they've appeared on the scene is total crap. Note: Ken, I'm not talking about you but about the lazy bastards who can't / won't learn the methodology of UNIX/LInux without doing the "Linux won't take up market share until it's more like Windows." .. we're not here to make sure Linux gets market share... we're hear to make sure those who come seeking help.. are well.. helped. But this doesn't mean we have to kowtow to every recent convert who sends a subscribe email. ;D -Ben -- Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

On Thursday 17 November 2005 12:46 pm, Andre Truter wrote: <SNIP>

I thought about it a bit and I can see valid reasons for an experienced sysadmin to install a full desktop on SLES: 1) If you want to use it for a desktop workstation (You lost all your SUSE Linux or NLD media or something) :-)

2) You set up a LTSP server where people will run desktops from dumb terminals.

3) To run Matrix screensaver. 4) Management that was barely convinced to setup a Linux proxy server can walk by and say things like: "Wow ... look at that thing ... It's just working away like crazy" due to reason 3. Seriously, the above company has since had me replace their NT file server with Linux ... yes ... it has the screensaver too. I don't have the heart to tell the guy what it is at this point. -- Louis Richards

On Sat, Nov 19, 2005 at 07:37:54AM -0500, Louis Richards wrote:

On Thursday 17 November 2005 12:46 pm, Andre Truter wrote: <SNIP>

...

I thought about it a bit and I can see valid reasons for an experienced sysadmin to install a full desktop on SLES: 1) If you want to use it for a desktop workstation (You lost all your SUSE Linux or NLD media or something) :-)

2) You set up a LTSP server where people will run desktops from dumb terminals.

3) To run Matrix screensaver.

That's awesome, I stare at it for hours.

4) Management that was barely convinced to setup a Linux proxy server can walk by and say things like: "Wow ... look at that thing ... It's just working away like crazy" due to reason 3.

Seriously, the above company has since had me replace their NT file server with Linux ... yes ... it has the screensaver too. I don't have the heart to tell the guy what it is at this point.

Haha, you're awesome. Hey whatever works though. I'm going to use that one though lol.

Louis Richards

-Allen

-- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On 11/14/05, John Andersen wrote:

On Monday 14 November 2005 02:32 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

...

If all of you who say this isn't a big deal you'd get what the bitch is.. and stop toss up what they released in their PR statement. The PR statement means close to shite. :)

Ouch, that sentence hurt my brain.

Thanks! I aim to please. And reading it now. I think I should just go nap.. because I'm just not all together here today. :( -- Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 20:09 -0500, Ken Schneider wrote:

On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 15:32 -0800, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

...

On 11/14/05, Ken Schneider wrote:

...

...

On Monday 14 November 2005 03:16 am, Kevin Donnelly wrote:

...

Can all this Novell FUD be taken off-list, please? If you don't like SUSE, or fear what it might become, just stop using it.

With all due respect Kevin, I'm pretty sure you are not the thread

On Mon, 2005-11-14 at 12:14 -0900, John Andersen wrote: police.

...

This directly affects SuSE users, and had there not been an uproar we would be looking at Gnome as our principal desktop in the next release, with the inevitable decline in support for kde.

Can you point out to anyone where it was stated that Gnome was going to be the default for suse 10.x or opensuse 10.x? You wont find one anywhere because the articles stated that the change was for Novell "enterprise" products meaning SLES and NLD only.

Yes, and a lot of us have said that

Anyone official from Novell? Or can I just state that Novell is going to drop SuSE linux altogether and have it be accepted as gospel even though I have connection with Novell other than using their product? ^ no

...

with their monetary situation there will be a limited amount of resources. Meaning if they get strapped for dev guys and their main focus is Gnome then they will drawn away from KDE dev. I guess they could just get all those who say this isn't a big deal to make and test the KDE pkgs since it's not a big deal. Redhat puts more resources to their Gnome offerings and they're KDE offerings blow goats. If all of you who say this isn't a big deal you'd get what the bitch is.. and stop toss up what they released in their PR statement. The PR statement means close to shite. :)

Oh well. I think this is the last time I try explaining this.. if SUSE does start to let KDE suffer then it's quite easy for all of us that this bothers.. to just jump ship.. silently. Doesn't mean much except that Novell/SUSE won't get the cash I put on my pcard for boxed editions. *shrug*

-Ben

-- Atheism is a non-prophet organization. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

-- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

On Monday 14 November 2005 6:32 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

Oh well. I think this is the last time I try explaining this.. if SUSE does start to let KDE suffer then it's quite easy for all of us that this bothers.. to just jump ship.. silently. Doesn't mean much except that Novell/SUSE won't get the cash I put on my pcard for boxed editions.

Sure won't. Fred -- Paid purchaser of ALL SuSE Linux releases since 6.x

On 11/15/05, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

On Monday 14 November 2005 06:32 pm, Ben Rosenberg wrote:

...

Novell/SUSE won't get the cash I put on my pcard for boxed editions. *shrug*

That's SuSE/Novell.

Umm.. No. SUSE is a sub-brand of Novell now. They do not exist as a separate company and do not make decisions about business without approve from Novell. Therefore the parent brand comes before the child brand. One bought the other. -Ben -- Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

On Sunday 13 November 2005 06:21 pm, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

Don't try to get the average secratary to try Linux.  It's not ready for that kind of use.  We need to get the technically able people to use it.  College students, systems administrators, etc.

That's where you are wrong. The average secretary types, mails, schedules, emails, etc. They don't fiddle around with industry specific packages, such as medical billing, or inventory, or physical hardware control software like machine control, etc where the package exists only for windows. Secretaries and desk jockies are the PERFECT environment for linux. You can put it there, and expect them not to get viruses in their first 5 emails, and keep them from installing any package that they encounter on the net. The tools in SuSE are perfectly suited for this kind of person. But that goddamed $90,000 practice management software that the doctors office uses will keep the whole place on windows. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Sun November 13 2005 09:53, Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sun, 2005-11-13 at 10:20 -0800, Curtis Rey wrote:

...

As will I. The plan would be something like this. Back up all data to disc/DVD. Wipe all hard discs. Install and config new fork/branch. Subscribed to new distro mailing lists. Unsubscribe from all Novell/SuSE mailing lists. Never utter the word Novell again if humanly possible.

KDE will not be dropped, please stop these useless threads, it is WRONG!

But even if KDE were dropped, don't you think this is just a wee bit of an exaggerated reaction?

Curtis, whatever it is you're smoking, you should know that it's most likely only allowed on medical grounds

Dear Anders. My sentiments are deftly echoed by Mr Rosenberg's post, about 6 posts down the thread. "It's now wrong because people freaked right the hell out and they had to surcome to the pressure from their userbase." Firstly, I do realize the press release focused on their enterprise products (e.g. SLES), but it bodes to a larger shift in the internal infrastructure that's happening at Novell. Furthermore, to quote Ben again: "Why would we have chosen SUSE in the first place if not for how they do things?" Why would I stay with SuSE if it morphs so far away from what originally attracted me to the distro in the first place? The bottom line for me is two fold. The primary reason I chose SuSE was because the way the product was put together, from the kernel up to the desktop. Secondly, the other thing that attracted me to SuSE was it's community. If the community is effectively cut out of the picture in deference to the corporate paradigms, I have to wonder what's next. It's not just a shift from GNOME to KDE - though this is an essential part of many's dismay, it an overwhelming sense of SuSE being essentially gutted of what makes it... well SuSE. The other thing that I found disturbing was Mr Mantel's resignation, one that strongly hints at the larger internal strife that is happening within the corporate ranks at Novell. The bottom line is this. As GNOME was secondary to KDE previously, KDE is apparently slated to fall to the type of piece meal devel that I've seen with GNOME in previous SuSE releases. Hence, KDE operations will become spotty and inferior simply because resources formerly used to develop it will no longer be available. Pair this with my observation that GNOME's user interface is often obtuse, and in some ways arcane, doesn't fill me with confidence. There's a reason why many of the desktop users on this list use SuSE. One is becuase of the core development team and the other because of the GUI devel. Now we see a major shift in this facet of the OS and many feel that this will essentially cause them untold difficulties - akin to learning the OS all over again in some respects. So, if my reaction seems exaggerated it is because many of us fear the inevitable is occurring. This goes back to the previous power struggle and bad blood between the KDE and GNOME devel teams. I'm sure there are quite a few reasons that Novell took the initial decision regarding the GUI of choice. However, I can't escape my gut feeling that this is also a vailed vendetta that's being played out. Novell bought Ximian and KDE came with the SuSE acquisition. In otherwords someone probably feels that this is round two (or three) for the ongoing KDE/GNOME conflict. One a more personal note, I can't escape the impression that someone high up in the GNOME/Ximian team convinced those at Novell that the best use of the Ximian purchase would be to emulate RH and therein place GNOME resources and development priorities above that of KDE. Novell didn't put out a fair sum of cash for KDE, but they did for Ximian. Given the latest shake-up at Novell and the ensuing lay offs there are only so many resources available and this was most likely an opportune time to make political moves to supplant KDE's dominance over GNOME. I could be dead wrong - but that's what my gut tells me. Lastly, my confidence in Novell's decision process is not strengthened, given their prior history. They have made a bonehead or two in the past. Not to mention that the former executives that were formerly at the helm at Novell are now the upper echelon at.... You guessed it - THE CANOPY GROUP - and what a fun lot they are. This hints at a mono-culture, and there's another software maker that has that dubious honor as well - and many on this list are using Linux specifically to avoid said software maker. If my fears are justified (one way or the other), I see GNOME becoming more mature and congent - at least to some extent. But I feel the majority of users on the SuSE list chose SuSE because of, not only the core kernel work, but for the desktop development that focused on KDE. Gnome was second string for a reason. If Gnome becomes the overt focus of resource management and development then what's going to happen to KDE? As I previously stated, it will fall to second string and likewise suffer due to poor resources and support. At that point, along with core changes to the original devel team (that IMHO makes SuSE - SuSE) what's the point? There are plenty of other distros out there to chose from - and frankly I would have no hesitation switching over to a distro that made the shrewd move of hiring Mr Mantel - he's is one of the essential factors that made SuSE what it is today and will likely do the same with another Linux maker - whom ever they may be. Cheers, Curtis -- Spammers Beware: Tresspassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again! Warning: Individuals throwing objects at the crocodiles will be asked to retrieve them!

On Mon November 14 2005 11:47, Andre Truter wrote:

On 11/14/05, Curtis Rey wrote:

...

Why would I stay with SuSE if it morphs so far away from what originally attracted me to the distro in the first place? The bottom line for me is two fold. The primary reason I chose SuSE was because the way the product was put together, from the kernel up to the desktop. Secondly, the other thing that attracted me to SuSE was it's community. If the community is effectively cut out of the picture in deference to the corporate paradigms, I

OK, I am confused here. How is Novell cutting out the community here?

To me it rather looks like they are pulling the community closer with OpenSUSE.

Well, one might regard the fact that Novell opening a previously closed beta-test program to the general users base "pulling the community closer". And in fact this is a direct advent of this move. However, I see this as a cost cutting factor as well. It brings more eyes to the code and lessens the burden on the internal devel team. So, if it becomes obvious that one might want to strengthen and speed up code development, the old method was to hire more code hacks - this costs money! On the otherhand if you have limited fiscal resources but still have a desire to beef up the code/devel process what better way than to get more people to identify bugs and problems than getting free labor? Hence, the opening up of the beta program is two fold - it does make user feel more empowered, but I fear this is an aside to the real motivation. The primary reason for this is to gain better product development without the ensuing cost traditionally associated with "hiring" more people to accomplish the task - F/OSS people aren't the only ones with a reputation for wanting FREE BEER (there, I went and said those two words). You do bring up a good point though. If one looks at the subject matter on the beta mail list, one may take note that the majority of post on said mail list focus on server issues. The gui is actually not that common an issue by comparison. But to further prove my point there is another mailing list for support that is entirely focused on KDE - suse-kde<at>suse.com. There may be a list for gnome as well, but at the time I signed up for the gui support mail lists it wasn't there to subscribe to - because KDE was the preferred desktop and if not for certain SuSE users that provided alternative packages for gnome it would be less functional than it presently is.

Did SuSE include the community in thier corporate desicions before Novell bought them? If not, then why are people angry at Novell for making corporate desicions without consulting the community?

No, SuSE did not ask the community about it's preference when it was considering the Novell offer. One would be that it belonged to SuSE and hence it was simply a matter of "what to do with my company", rather than "gee I wonder how our user base is going to react?". But I don't think that this is entirely the same situation. SuSE went to great lengths to reassure their user base that they would still have the same distro they signed onto. Now this may not be true any longer, or at least this is the fear. What I think happened is they chose to do this because it made sense in someones mind. But I also think they may have miscalculated the response. I don't think they thought this would be such an issue - or at least not to the extent that it appears to have taken. What do think the reaction would be if Novell said they are no longer supporting ALSA in deference to OSS (Open Source Sound) drivers and protocols??? Not positive to say the least IMHO. It seems a a double edged sword in this case. Novell opens beta program with the end result of pulling the user base closer in, and then turns around and proceeds to alienate a large swath of their user base by proclaiming that their server/enterprise products and the corporate desktop product (NLD) will no longer support the formerly ubiquitous desktop environment by announcing the GNOME over KDE decision? I don't get it!!! Would be the first time "I didn't get it", but it seems like a large portion of other people don't get it either. Hence my statement about cutting out the community. This was done overtly. I was the result of being out of touch with the majority of your user base on the promise of gain a contract or two. But then what the hell do I know?

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

[..]

...

The bottom line is this. As GNOME was secondary to KDE previously, KDE is apparently slated to fall to the type of piece meal devel that I've seen with GNOME in previous SuSE releases.

What makes you think that KDE development support will be discontinued? Did Novell make any such announcements or anything?

I would categorize this into an "ease of transition" move. We've all heard it said before - "people use at home what they use at work". In otherwords, If you're introduced to SuSE with GNOME at work and decide to use it at home, will this new user base have a preference for GNOME or KDE. I would wager they would stay with what they know. And in this scenario that would unmistakenly be GNOME. They're familiar and comfortable. Nothing wrong with that overall. But, perception is reality on Wall Street and this would marginalize KDE IMHO. As an aside, I can't help but see a trend to emulate RH - and as previously stated if I want an RH'esque OS I would be using... RH! First they acclimate user/admin to GNOME and at the same time, if they use NLD they acclimate their user/client base to the same. It isn't a far reach to presume that KDE's days as a viable and well supported desktop would be numbered - at least where strong devel and support were concernded. I think that this is the underlying concern that has prompted such a fervent and negative reaction to this announcement.

I can fully understand that people might get a bit edgy about the news that SLES and NLD will be focussing on GNOME, because it is a fairly big and important decision. But I definately don't see it as the end of SUSE.

I think people may fear what I addressed earlier. Sure, in the future, it will bear the name SuSE. But, will it be recognizable as SuSE in the same manner. What I'm trying to point out is that in corporate hands SuSE could easily morph into something that is not really what many have come to know and use. Will it be better or worse? Only time will tell. The fact that SuSE will change over time is a given. But much of SuSE was driven by it's users base. In large U.S. corporations the term user base is more mercurial than one might assume. Is the term "user base" to mean "those at the grass roots level" or those that are "product channel partners and clients"... aka - other large corporations? Let's be real here. Both you and I know the real bucks aren't in guys like myself that use SuSE as a home and SOHO solution. The place where the real money lays is in the large corporate contracts for installation and product support. But, SuSE belongs to Novell now and they'd be nuts not to try to cater to the latter market (the large corps) - this is where the money is and why I think this decision was made. However, I personally don't have to like it and if SuSE does morph into something I "personally" find less desirable then, true to the F/OSS/Linux philosophy, I will move to something else - I would just prefer, if I did find it necessary to migrate to another distro, to find one that I had some familiarity with - hence my stance on any possible future contributions from the like of Mr Mantel - et al. I know there work and find it preferable.

I am very glad to see that Novell took note of the reaction of the cumminuty. Maybe this should tell you something. Maybe we are not dealing with the same Novell as 10 years ago. Maybe they learnt a thing or two over time and maybe they will not drive SUSE into the ground.

One can only hope. I truely hope that Novell isn't the same company it was ten years ago. We'll just have to see how it unfolds.

So far Novell has done a lot to give SUSE a boost in the corporate world. Novell also opened SUSE to the community.

How about just waiting and seeing what Novell will do.

I think the outcry was a good thing as it made Novell aware of the community and it's influence. I still think that most people overreacted. I definately don't think it is time to start looking for orther distro's. I think it is worth hanging around to see how Novell handles this.

I'm not looking for other distro - per se. And I think the outcry is a positive think, at least overtly. But the question is not about our (user base) priorities as much as it's a question of what Novell's priorities are. Afterall It's their Linux company, not ours. I just hope they know what they're doing. Cheers, Curtis. -- Spammers Beware: Tresspassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again! Warning: Individuals throwing objects at the crocodiles will be asked to retrieve them!

On Mon November 14 2005 14:57, Andre Truter wrote:

On 11/15/05, Curtis Rey wrote: [..]

...

It seems a a double edged sword in this case. Novell opens beta program with the end result of pulling the user base closer in, and then turns around and proceeds to alienate a large swath of their user base by proclaiming that their server/enterprise products and the corporate desktop product (NLD) will no longer support the formerly ubiquitous desktop environment by announcing the GNOME over KDE decision? I don't get it!!! Would be the first time "I didn't get it", but it seems like a large portion of other people don't get it either. Hence my statement about cutting out the community.

Now this is where it gets confusing for me. When did Novell ever say that any of thier products will NOT support KDE anymore?

The articles that I read only quoted a Novell person saying that SLES and NLD will focus on GNOME. I did not read anything about KDE support being dropped or even that KDE will not be included in any of the distro's.

It's market speak, you know directed my the marketing department. To quote: "SLES and NLD will focus on GNOME" Considering the Novell is laying off people and Ximian is a whole Gnome company the they bought out - Focus on GNOME translates to using what resources they have left to FOCUS on Gnome and NOT FOCUS on KDE. Yes, I think the KDE will be around but as I said in an early post this is more of and "ease of transition" move. The first step in "ease of transition" is to do so in steps and increments. Start with SLES for the server base and NLD for the "corporate desktop". If the strategy hold true then all those new linux users will be linux user because their company is using NLD - a Gnome centric product. Hence if they decide to use it at home or advocate it, what Desktop do you think they'll opt for... Gnome or KDE. I would say Gnome because people stay with what's familiar and what they were "trained/oriented" to. This in my eyes is the first step of supplanting KDE. Like I said. I could be wrong - wouldn't be the first time.

Novell and SUSE personell stated on this list that KDE will still be supported and included in all products.

So, I don't see that the community is being dropped.

I have also not seen any news that any of the KDE developers at SUSE have been or will be fired. I have also not seen that Mr Mantell left SUSE because of the GNOME focus decision. He just said that the company is not the same as when it started. That can mean many different things.

If I have missed any articles/mails/press releases, please give me URLs so I can understand what the fuss is about.

[..]

...

I would categorize this into an "ease of transition" move. We've all heard it said before - "people use at home what they use at work". In otherwords, If you're introduced to SuSE with GNOME at work and decide to use it at home, will this new user base have a preference for GNOME or KDE. I would wager they would stay with what they know. And in this scenario that would unmistakenly be GNOME.

Hmm.. I don't know. As far as I know, the majority of SUSE users (at home and at the office) use SUSE Linux, not NLD or SLES. Besides, NLD 9, that has been out for a wile, already had GNOME as the first selection. No default is selected, but If I were a newbie that did not know what GNOME or KDE is, I would probably take the first option, which is GNOME.

So, how many GNOME-based NLD's are out there already? Nobody said a word about that.

If Novell is pulling a fast one here, then you definatly have a point, but it sounds a bit too much like a conspiracy theory at this stage. I tend to see a lot of possible truth in some conspiracy theories, but this one does not have enough facts yet.

If Novell start to get rid of KDE developers, then I will start to lean towards the conspiracy theory.

Irony is that the article that started this whole thing was actually about rumours of Novell firing GNOME and Mono developers, not KDE.

If I am wrong with any of my facts, please point me to sources where I can straighten my facts. :-)

PS: Like I said before, I do understand that people are worried, but at this stage I think a lot of people are over-reacting. There just are not enough facts yet to indicate that Novell is killing off KDE or changing SUSE Linux (the distro). The company will change, that is a given. Two companies that merge cannot stay the same, they will influence each other. Let's hope that the SUSE culture will infiltrate Novell. Only SUSE and Novell personell will know how the influnces of the two cultures affect each other. The local Novell people that I have met seems to have caught on to the OSS culture, but this is not the core of Novell in the USA. There it might be a different story.

-- Andre Truter | Software Engineer | Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 | AIM: trusoftzaf | http://www.trusoft.za.org

~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~

-- Spammers Beware: Tresspassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again! Warning: Individuals throwing objects at the crocodiles will be asked to retrieve them!

Curtis Rey wrote:

On Sun November 13 2005 09:53, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Sun, 2005-11-13 at 10:20 -0800, Curtis Rey wrote:

...

As will I. The plan would be something like this. Back up all data to disc/DVD. Wipe all hard discs. Install and config new fork/branch. Subscribed to new distro mailing lists. Unsubscribe from all Novell/SuSE mailing lists. Never utter the word Novell again if humanly possible.

KDE will not be dropped, please stop these useless threads, it is WRONG!

But even if KDE were dropped, don't you think this is just a wee bit of an exaggerated reaction?

Curtis, whatever it is you're smoking, you should know that it's most likely only allowed on medical grounds

Dear Anders. My sentiments are deftly echoed by Mr Rosenberg's post, about 6 posts down the thread.

"It's now wrong because people freaked right the hell out and they had to surcome to the pressure from their userbase."

Firstly, I do realize the press release focused on their enterprise products (e.g. SLES), but it bodes to a larger shift in the internal infrastructure that's happening at Novell. Furthermore, to quote Ben again:

"Why would we have chosen SUSE in the first place if not for how they do things?"

Why would I stay with SuSE if it morphs so far away from what originally attracted me to the distro in the first place? The bottom line for me is two fold. The primary reason I chose SuSE was because the way the product was put together, from the kernel up to the desktop. Secondly, the other thing that attracted me to SuSE was it's community. If the community is effectively cut out of the picture in deference to the corporate paradigms, I have to wonder what's next. It's not just a shift from GNOME to KDE - though this is an essential part of many's dismay, it an overwhelming sense of SuSE being essentially gutted of what makes it... well SuSE. The other thing that I found disturbing was Mr Mantel's resignation, one that strongly hints at the larger internal strife that is happening within the corporate ranks at Novell.

The bottom line is this. As GNOME was secondary to KDE previously, KDE is apparently slated to fall to the type of piece meal devel that I've seen with GNOME in previous SuSE releases. Hence, KDE operations will become spotty and inferior simply because resources formerly used to develop it will no longer be available. Pair this with my observation that GNOME's user interface is often obtuse, and in some ways arcane, doesn't fill me with confidence.

There's a reason why many of the desktop users on this list use SuSE. One is becuase of the core development team and the other because of the GUI devel. Now we see a major shift in this facet of the OS and many feel that this will essentially cause them untold difficulties - akin to learning the OS all over again in some respects.

So, if my reaction seems exaggerated it is because many of us fear the inevitable is occurring. This goes back to the previous power struggle and bad blood between the KDE and GNOME devel teams. I'm sure there are quite a few reasons that Novell took the initial decision regarding the GUI of choice. However, I can't escape my gut feeling that this is also a vailed vendetta that's being played out.

Novell bought Ximian and KDE came with the SuSE acquisition. In otherwords someone probably feels that this is round two (or three) for the ongoing KDE/GNOME conflict. One a more personal note, I can't escape the impression that someone high up in the GNOME/Ximian team convinced those at Novell that the best use of the Ximian purchase would be to emulate RH and therein place GNOME resources and development priorities above that of KDE. Novell didn't put out a fair sum of cash for KDE, but they did for Ximian. Given the latest shake-up at Novell and the ensuing lay offs there are only so many resources available and this was most likely an opportune time to make political moves to supplant KDE's dominance over GNOME. I could be dead wrong - but that's what my gut tells me.

Lastly, my confidence in Novell's decision process is not strengthened, given their prior history. They have made a bonehead or two in the past. Not to mention that the former executives that were formerly at the helm at Novell are now the upper echelon at.... You guessed it - THE CANOPY GROUP - and what a fun lot they are. This hints at a mono-culture, and there's another software maker that has that dubious honor as well - and many on this list are using Linux specifically to avoid said software maker.

If my fears are justified (one way or the other), I see GNOME becoming more mature and congent - at least to some extent. But I feel the majority of users on the SuSE list chose SuSE because of, not only the core kernel work, but for the desktop development that focused on KDE. Gnome was second string for a reason. If Gnome becomes the overt focus of resource management and development then what's going to happen to KDE? As I previously stated, it will fall to second string and likewise suffer due to poor resources and support. At that point, along with core changes to the original devel team (that IMHO makes SuSE - SuSE) what's the point? There are plenty of other distros out there to chose from - and frankly I would have no hesitation switching over to a distro that made the shrewd move of hiring Mr Mantel - he's is one of the essential factors that made SuSE what it is today and will likely do the same with another Linux maker - whom ever they may be.

Cheers, Curtis

To Curtis, et all: Before worrying whether to switch to another distro or not, what is the status of Mr. Mantel and a possible NON-COMPETE clause in his leaving? Does anybody know?

At 03:52 PM 11/14/2005 -0500, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

Content-Disposition: inline

On Monday 14 November 2005 03:01 pm, John Boyle wrote:

...

To Curtis, et all: Before worrying whether to switch to another distro or not, what is the status of Mr. Mantel and a possible NON-COMPETE clause in his leaving? Does anybody know?

Non-competes only specify that you can't try to take contracts your previous company was working on, and stuff like that. There is no way Novell, or anybody else can legally stop him form working for another company doing what he was doing for SuSE.

Steven

The company I worked for for 21 years made me sign an agreement when I was hired, that if I left for any reason, I would not work in the same business for 2 years after leaving. I assume that this was/is legally binding in the United States. This was a Fortune 500 company, so they must have had good lawyers. --doug -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.0/167 - Release Date: 11/11/2005

On 11/14/05 4:19 PM, "Doug McGarrett" wrote:

The company I worked for for 21 years made me sign an agreement when I was hired, that if I left for any reason, I would not work in the same business for 2 years after leaving. I assume that this was/is legally binding in the United States. This was a Fortune 500 company, so they must have had good lawyers.

--doug

Don't bet on it. They can't restrict your right to make a living at what you do. Many, many companies do things that aren't exactly legal, knowing that the person will assume that it must be right. My wife and I both went after different companies for back pay and other things. They never had a clue that we knew what they had us sign was not legally binding. We wanted a paycheck, so we signed. When it was time to leave, we spoke to different lawyers, they read the contracts and said we didn't need them. Things were a matter of US federal law...just mention what law and they will back down. We did just that and got our money in days. Corporate America thinks they can bully the public and employees around. If you read any contract, many if not most will say each party has the right to end the contract at any time, for any reason. But it's in very fine print. So in the end, as my lawyer said, "it's just a piece of paper. We have many and they are all worth the same. It's all a matter of how much of a stink they want to put up." I've got out of T1 contracts, DSL contracts, cell contacts, all types of things knowing what he told me. Companies try to do what ever they want, knowing the public won't do anything. Hell, my alarm company just last week tried to get me to pay for a new battery, for a system they own. Why would I pay for something they own? That's Brinks for you... -- Thanks, George

On Monday 14 November 2005 03:10 pm, Curtis Rey wrote:

So, if my reaction seems exaggerated it is because many of us fear the inevitable is occurring. This goes back to the previous power struggle and bad blood between the KDE and GNOME devel teams.

Hu? Who? What? where? Best I can tell KDE developers worry about making the KDE better. They could give a rip less about the GNOME, unless...

I'm sure there are quite a few reasons that Novell took the initial decision regarding the GUI of choice. However, I can't escape my gut feeling that this is also a vailed vendetta that's being played out.

Novell bought Ximian and KDE came with the SuSE acquisition. In otherwords someone probably feels that this is round two (or three) for the ongoing KDE/GNOME conflict. One a more personal note, I can't escape the impression that someone high up in the GNOME/Ximian team convinced those at Novell that the best use of the Ximian purchase would be to emulate RH and therein place GNOME resources and development priorities above that of KDE.

I think you need to look at something else. Mono. That is very important to Novell. Novell is making cuts because they don't have the income. What we really should be focusing on is how to help SuSE/Novell improve their revenues. How can Linux be sold to large organizations? BTW, NASA, NIH, NSA, and many other hightech government organizations both use, and contribute to Linux. How can we convince major corporations to contribute to Linux without a direct, measurable ROI? In the end it would cut a lot of operating costs, and free them of dependency on a single source provider. Steven

On Tuesday 15 November 2005 08:12 pm, Langsley wrote:

Have any of you read this? http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux05/Novell-SUSE-Linux-Deja-Deja_Story01.htm l

MozillaQuest Magazine: "Will KDE continue to be the primary desktop for SUSE Linux?" Kevan Barney: "Current and future SUSE Linux products will continue to offer both the GNOME and KDE desktop environments. Novell will continue to invest in both GNOME and KDE and we will continue to offer maintenance and support for these products and their desktop environments throughout their planned product lifetimes." If someone were talking about plans for my lifetime, I would make every effort to neutralize them. Steven

On Tuesday November 15 2005 9:26 pm, Randall R Schulz wrote:

On Tuesday 15 November 2005 17:35, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

...

...

MozillaQuest Magazine: "Will KDE continue to be the primary desktop for SUSE Linux?" Kevan Barney: "Current and future SUSE Linux products will continue to offer both the GNOME and KDE desktop environments. Novell will continue to invest in both GNOME and KDE and we will continue to offer maintenance and support for these products and their desktop environments throughout their planned product lifetimes."

If someone were talking about plans for my lifetime, I would make every effort to neutralize them.

The people doing the planning, or the plans?

...

Steven

RRS I thought this quote from that same article was particularly interesting, particularly item #3, in light of the fact that others have questioned whether or not there was anything from Novell on the subject of Gnome vs KDE issue.

"Novell's Response" "The Novell people deny that Novell is dumping either SUSE Linux or the KDE desktop suite." "Bruce Lowry told MozillaQuest Magazine in our phone conversation Thursday that:" " (1) there is no systematic plan to get rid of SUSE people," "(2) Novell/SUSE will continue to support both the GNOME and KDE desktop suites, and" "(3) GNOME will be the default desktop on the Novell and SUSE Linux distributions, but that Novell and SUSE Linux distribution users will be able to select the KDE desktop if they so chose." -- LTR Registered Linux user #280295 itisi@kvremcwb.com

On Tuesday 15 November 2005 07:23 pm, Langsley wrote:

"(3) GNOME will be the default desktop on the Novell and SUSE Linux distributions, but that Novell and SUSE Linux distribution users will be able to select the KDE desktop if they so chose."

Hence the "end" of KDE support. I can't imagine a US company "supporting" financially any project like KDE if they don't have it as the primary choice for their OS. I suppose I could bend over and take it or learn to actually like Gnome, as ugly as it is. Or... Hmm. I wonder if that Mandrake 2006 DVD I got in Linux-Magazine is any good. They still support KDE, right? -- kai www.perfectreign.com linux - genuine windows replacement part

Kai Ponte writes:

On Tuesday 15 November 2005 07:23 pm, Langsley wrote:

...

"(3) GNOME will be the default desktop on the Novell and SUSE Linux distributions, but that Novell and SUSE Linux distribution users will be able to select the KDE desktop if they so chose."

Hence the "end" of KDE support. I can't imagine a US company "supporting" financially any project like KDE if they don't have it as the primary choice for their OS.

I can imagine it since I see it ;-) Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

jfweber@bellsouth.net wrote:

On Tuesday 15 November 2005 9:26 pm, Randall R Schulz wrote:

...

On Tuesday 15 November 2005 17:35, Steven T. Hatton wrote:

(snip)

...

...

If someone were talking about plans for my lifetime, I would make every effort to neutralize them.

The people doing the planning, or the plans?

What's the difference ? ;-)

Good question! If you only neutralize the plans, but not the people, those same people will concoct other plans that you'd have to neutralize over and over again. So the most cost effective route would seem to neutralize the people, if you can do so without running into legal trouble. That probably means that you'd have to run for president of the US of A or director of CIA or FBI, I suppose. :-) Regards, -- Jos van Kan registered Linux user #152704