reasonable enough reason. on the other hand, so much is revolutionary in this release including a genuinely awesome KDE4 desktop this time around, project Bretzn, opensource broadcom drivers, speedy kernel patch, bluez, and much more, that it is tempting to give this release the 12.0 moniker. if the multi-touch xinput extensions make it in I would be all for twelve, as that would make a huge boost to Meego/touch interface respins of suse on arm and intel. On 12/16/10 10:06, Frederic Crozat wrote:

Le jeudi 16 décembre 2010 à 10:55 +0100, Stephan Kulow a écrit :

...

Hi,

When the roadmap was discussed, I said we would decide on the version number when we have a clearer picture about what would make up the new version.

So as Milestone5 is on the mirrors and I'm myself preparing for christmas holidays, I wonder: what's your oppinion on the version number? I myself prefer 11.4, but I have no strong objection against 12.0 if this is what the majority wants.

Please read the original thread from the beginning to the end before you see yourself repeating arguments: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2010-07/msg00244.html

Since GNOME 3 won't be part of 11.4, I'd suggest we switch to 12.0 for 11.5.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 12/16/10 14:14, Vincent Untz wrote:

Le jeudi 16 décembre 2010, à 10:30 +0000, Matt Gray a écrit :

...

reasonable enough reason.

on the other hand, so much is revolutionary in this release including a genuinely awesome KDE4 desktop this time around, project Bretzn, opensource broadcom drivers, speedy kernel patch, bluez, and much more, that it is tempting to give this release the 12.0 moniker. How much of this is a big visible difference compared to 11.3? I mean, visible as in "wow, that's new", and not visible as in "they finally fixed this issue". To me, it sounds like only Bretzn would fit in that category.

So based on this, I'd stay with 11.4.

...

if the multi-touch xinput extensions make it in I would be all for twelve, as that would make a huge boost to Meego/touch interface respins of suse on arm and intel. Nod, the multitouch will be a great new visible feature. But to be useful, we also need to have apps that work with that. I'm not aware of any app in openSUSE that can benefit from it right now, though. I guess it will come soon, when various upstreams starts playing with it.

Cheers,

Vincent

agreed that Bretzyn is the only user-visible feature listed. i also recognise the problem of enabled apps, but i think the right place to start is with the march release, the patches are already out and built against x.server 1.9. if we are serious about pushing meego then i think this is essential, and would indeed be a second user-visible stand out feature. i believe there is even an openfate request on the matter, but it hasn't been approved or declined yet............... i think having kde 4.6 is a useful feature, as it will be the first opensuse release with a KDE4 desktop that is indisputably better than its KDE predecessors. kde 4.3 was usable, kde 4.4 was acceptable, kde 4.5 was finally really good, but we missed that release with opensuse 11.3. i am not committed to calling the next release "12", just content that the aggregate of these features could justify the marketing number bump. :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 12/16/10 16:08, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:30 AM, Matt Gray wrote:

...

reasonable enough reason.

on the other hand, so much is revolutionary in this release including a genuinely awesome KDE4 desktop this time around, project Bretzn, opensource broadcom drivers, speedy kernel patch, bluez, and much more, that it is tempting to give this release the 12.0 moniker.

if the multi-touch xinput extensions make it in I would be all for twelve, as that would make a huge boost to Meego/touch interface respins of suse on arm and intel. Is there a read-me or draft press release that gives at least a basic overview of the above?

My limited understanding is:

awesome KDE4 desktop this time - i thought we said that about KDE 4.4? What's so great about 4.6?

project Bretzn - never heard of it. I doubt users are clamoring for it.

opensource broadcom drivers - nice, but my reading is that this is for limited set of new devices. I'd like to know more about the range of supported devices before considering this a killer feature.

speedy kernel patch - most users are not impacted. Those that are can do this in 11.3 (as I understand it) via a boot time script.

bluez - I've at least heard of this, but don't know what it is.

multi-touch xinput extensions - very limited set of users, why update the whole distro version for this?

=== If KDE 4.6 is really a huge improvement over 4.4 and we don't expect a similar big jump in the 11.6 timeframe, then I see an issue.

If we bump to 12.0 because of KDE as the main reason, then we should also bump to 13.0 when GNOME 3.0 is out.

That sounds like a poor way forward.

My vote is to wait for GNOME 3.0 to be released and bump to 12.0 with the release that includes it.

=== OTOH, I'd love to see something like comprehensive and fully integrated support of SSDs (including discard support) in a laptop environment be the driver for the 12.0 moniker.

For environments with a single storage device (eg. a laptop) we are so close, a last minute push could get everything into 11.4, but I think it would need to be project priority and get several people involved.

--> current status as of current factory

The kernel support is there to a major extent with 2.6.37. (ext4 and xfs only I believe)

(I'm ignoring btrfs since its still experimental, and VFAT because I hope a Linux laptop would not use VFAT as a primary FS type.).

The userspace scripts for wiper.sh / hdparm are there already for 11.2 and 11.3 releases. Bug fixes for both were rolled out via the update channel a couple months ago. Obviously factory has these.

A new userspace tool to invoke a new 2.6.37 ext4 background discard feature is supposed to be in 11.4 (it may be in this milestone. Part of linux-utils. The util is trivial and basically just makes a ioctl call. The magic is in the 2.6.37 kernel.)

The gpart partitioning tools and yast partitioner module were updated for 11.3 to align newly created partitions on Erase Block boundaries, so that is already in.

All that's missing is read me files, press releases, a cron entry automatically created to invoke the script if needed and possibly some yast partitioner updates to inform the user that a drive is a SSD and ask how they want discard handled. (There are at least 3 options for ext4 based filesystem. Only one should be used as they provide redundant functionality. The choice is driven by multiple factors.)

And most importantly testing.

fyi: For more background of what I'm talking about, see this wiki page I maintain: http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:SSD_discard_%28trim%29_support

Thanks Greg I entirely agree with your advocacy in favour of full SSD support for 11.4, i have an SSD in my desktop, but i don't see how it is substantially different from any other rejected feature as a justification for version number changes, if those rejected ones were not good enough already.

As said to Vincent, I agree that features invisible to users are not necessarily the best candidates for justifying a marketing stunt like changing major version numbers, but i do think you are wrong on project Bretzn. Having a fully integrated app-store built into opensuse 11.4 is a 'big' thing, especially if it arrives only two months after apple launches its mac app-store on January 6th, in a world where everyones mobile phone has made app-stores a part of their daily life. On "bluez", apologies, i was referring to the new bluetooth stack, and i do believe the x-input extensions will be an important differentiator, if only for smeegol tablet builds. Importantly, it is not any one feature, it is the fact that there are so many of them all arriving together, so to state; "If we bump to 12.0 because of KDE as the main reason, then we should also bump to 13.0 when GNOME 3.0 is out." ......... is to mis-characterise the reason for me suggesting it. I sincerely hope that you SSD feature makes the grade for 11.4, it is important, but as said again to Vincent i am not commited to calling the next release 12, merely suggesting a justification for why it might be appropriate. kind regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 16 December 2010 17:08:53 Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:30 AM, Matt Gray wrote:

...

reasonable enough reason.

on the other hand, so much is revolutionary in this release including a genuinely awesome KDE4 desktop this time around, project Bretzn, opensource broadcom drivers, speedy kernel patch, bluez, and much more, that it is tempting to give this release the 12.0 moniker.

if the multi-touch xinput extensions make it in I would be all for twelve, as that would make a huge boost to Meego/touch interface respins of suse on arm and intel.

Is there a read-me or draft press release that gives at least a basic overview of the above?

My limited understanding is:

awesome KDE4 desktop this time - i thought we said that about KDE 4.4? What's so great about 4.6?

4.4 was basically usable, 4.6 moves the linux desktop to a new level. Or something like that :D

project Bretzn - never heard of it. I doubt users are clamoring for it.

http://news.opensuse.org/2010/10/26/from-the-developer-to-the-user-and-back- announcing-project-bretzn/' Yes, it's more of a developers thing, but quite awesome imho.

opensource broadcom drivers - nice, but my reading is that this is for limited set of new devices. I'd like to know more about the range of supported devices before considering this a killer feature.

speedy kernel patch - most users are not impacted. Those that are can do this in 11.3 (as I understand it) via a boot time script.

Well, more patches have been added compared to the 11.3 2.6.34 kernel, like Nick Piggin's VM scalability patches that decrease the impact of heavy IO on a linux system. This can actually be quite noticable - and depending on what kernel we finally ship (2.6.37 or 2.6.38) we'll have most or all of these patches.

bluez - I've at least heard of this, but don't know what it is.

Bluetooth? Rings a bell? Bluez brings a much improved bluetooth stack.

multi-touch xinput extensions - very limited set of users, why update the whole distro version for this?

it's new and innovative and hot?

=== If KDE 4.6 is really a huge improvement over 4.4 and we don't expect a similar big jump in the 11.6 timeframe, then I see an issue.

We don't.

If we bump to 12.0 because of KDE as the main reason, then we should also bump to 13.0 when GNOME 3.0 is out.

That sounds like a poor way forward.

Yup. Which is why personally, I'm torn about this... the next release, besides GNOME 3.0, might also have Unity if Nelson and others keep hackin' away - also really cool. Then again, did Smeegol's work make it into factory? If that's possible at all with the latest 'rules' from the linux foundation...

My vote is to wait for GNOME 3.0 to be released and bump to 12.0 with the release that includes it.

Well, KDE IS our default desktop. Then again, GNOME 3.0 brings much more changes to the user experience. Difficult, difficult. Which is why I think we should go with 11.4 as that's what we've been communicating for a long time anyway...

=== OTOH, I'd love to see something like comprehensive and fully integrated support of SSDs (including discard support) in a laptop environment be the driver for the 12.0 moniker.

For environments with a single storage device (eg. a laptop) we are so close, a last minute push could get everything into 11.4, but I think it would need to be project priority and get several people involved.

--> current status as of current factory

The kernel support is there to a major extent with 2.6.37. (ext4 and xfs only I believe)

(I'm ignoring btrfs since its still experimental, and VFAT because I hope a Linux laptop would not use VFAT as a primary FS type.).

The userspace scripts for wiper.sh / hdparm are there already for 11.2 and 11.3 releases. Bug fixes for both were rolled out via the update channel a couple months ago. Obviously factory has these.

A new userspace tool to invoke a new 2.6.37 ext4 background discard feature is supposed to be in 11.4 (it may be in this milestone. Part of linux-utils. The util is trivial and basically just makes a ioctl call. The magic is in the 2.6.37 kernel.)

The gpart partitioning tools and yast partitioner module were updated for 11.3 to align newly created partitions on Erase Block boundaries, so that is already in.

All that's missing is read me files, press releases, a cron entry automatically created to invoke the script if needed and possibly some yast partitioner updates to inform the user that a drive is a SSD and ask how they want discard handled. (There are at least 3 options for ext4 based filesystem. Only one should be used as they provide redundant functionality. The choice is driven by multiple factors.)

And most importantly testing.

fyi: For more background of what I'm talking about, see this wiki page I maintain: http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:SSD_discard_%28trim%29_support

Thanks Greg

Am Donnerstag 16 Dezember 2010, 12:09:00 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

Am Donnerstag, 16. Dezember 2010 schrieb Basil Chupin:

...

On 16/12/2010 20:55, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Hi,

When the roadmap was discussed, I said we would decide on the version number when we have a clearer picture about what would make up the new version.

What does the "if this is what the majority wants" of calling it 12.0 have to do with anything?

Who is the "majority"? Those on this list?

I already understood from previous statements that you don't get the rules of a discussion, no reason to reiterate your point.

Whatever the result is, can we that decide next version earlier? That has consequenses for others work :( br gnokii

Greetings, Stephan

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 16. Dezember 2010 schrieb Sebastian Siebert:

I have the same opinion as gnokii. It is a little bit to late to discuss about openSUSE 12.0. This topic is in conflict with the running advertisment of openSUSE 11.4.

A rename to 12.0 would be the best marketing for 11.4 you can get.

Let's talk about it in April after the release of openSUSE 11.4.

Sorry, but I object to the version number used for marketing alone. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:34 AM, S.Kemter wrote:

Am Donnerstag 16 Dezember 2010, 12:58:40 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

...

A rename to 12.0 would be the best marketing for 11.4 you can get.

11.4 or 12.0 is fine with me, because I have to rework for another decision. My only point is keep in mind, that others have to work with ;)

So make no endless discussion!

As next year is 2011 I would suggest to start using a release number based on year/month as Ubuntu does. I know, next release is on march, but, just lets keep 11.4 and next version 11.11 (8 months later ;) ) and forthcoming ... Or let fix the number of releases as before, having 4 minor releases, that would make next version 12.0, 12.1, 12.2, 12.3, 13.0 etc. I don't see any 'awesome' change to jump directly to 12.0, though we could say '12.0' is the first openSUSE version having LibreOffice, or the famous kernel patch :P jm2c -- Kind Regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am 16/12/10 13:39, schrieb Gabriel [SGT]:

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:34 AM, S.Kemter wrote:

...

Am Donnerstag 16 Dezember 2010, 12:58:40 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

...

A rename to 12.0 would be the best marketing for 11.4 you can get.

11.4 or 12.0 is fine with me, because I have to rework for another decision. My only point is keep in mind, that others have to work with ;)

So make no endless discussion!

As next year is 2011 I would suggest to start using a release number based on year/month as Ubuntu does. I know, next release is on march, but, just lets keep 11.4 and next version 11.11 (8 months later ;) ) and forthcoming ... Or let fix the number of releases as before, having 4 minor releases, that would make next version 12.0, 12.1, 12.2, 12.3, 13.0 etc. I don't see any 'awesome' change to jump directly to 12.0, though we could say '12.0' is the first openSUSE version having LibreOffice, or the famous kernel patch :P

jm2c

I thought of that year 2011 of getting (back) to something related with years, too. And openSUSE 11.4 could be sorted after openSUSE 11.3 and in front of openSUSE 11.11 easily. And maybe in the future this would help to prevent discussions over what/whose innovations are relevant/decisive for a 'big' jump in versions in the future (apart that in my a bit conservative point of view everything with a *.0 has a taste of being innovative but a bit buggy ;) ). Regards Martin (pistazienfresser) -- openSUSE 11.3 2.6.34.7-0.5 GNOME 2.30.0 openSUSE factory-tested 2.6.37-rc5-12 GNOME 2.32.1 openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

El jue, 16-12-2010 a las 12:44 +0100, Sebastian Siebert escribió:

Hi,

Am 16.12.2010 12:33, schrieb S.Kemter:

...

Am Donnerstag 16 Dezember 2010, 12:09:00 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

...

Am Donnerstag, 16. Dezember 2010 schrieb Basil Chupin:

...

On 16/12/2010 20:55, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Hi,

When the roadmap was discussed, I said we would decide on the version number when we have a clearer picture about what would make up the new version.

What does the "if this is what the majority wants" of calling it 12.0 have to do with anything?

Who is the "majority"? Those on this list?

I already understood from previous statements that you don't get the rules of a discussion, no reason to reiterate your point.

Whatever the result is, can we that decide next version earlier? That has consequenses for others work :(

I have the same opinion as gnokii. It is a little bit to late to discuss about openSUSE 12.0. This topic is in conflict with the running advertisment of openSUSE 11.4.

Let's talk about it in April after the release of openSUSE 11.4.

At least we have the strongest motif to change the actual version number to 12.0 it should remains as openSUSE 11.4 because that is what we have been announcing for everybody inside and outside. And it is good for all parts involved with these projects to keep the version or name consistency and persistence in their minds. Making changes ATM affects several team efforts and communication channels.AFAIK Advertisement is one of them and many other teams will have to change their tasks to keep it consistent with the new version and end users could get confused too. Just to keep it simple. Discuss it for the next release. Sure it will have features enough to justify it. My 0.01 cent.

-- Kind regards, Sebastian - openSUSE Member (Freespacer) Website/Blog: http://www.sebastian-siebert.de Important notes on openSUSE Mailing List: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette

-- Ricardo Chung | openSUSE Linux Ambassador http://en.opensuse.org/User:Amonthoth http://twitter.com/amon0thoth1 http://amon0thoth1.blogspot.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/openSUSE-Panama-Users-Group/326325121542 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 16/12/2010 22:09, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Donnerstag, 16. Dezember 2010 schrieb Basil Chupin:

...

On 16/12/2010 20:55, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Hi,

When the roadmap was discussed, I said we would decide on the version number when we have a clearer picture about what would make up the new version.

...

What does the "if this is what the majority wants" of calling it 12.0 have to do with anything?

Who is the "majority"? Those on this list? I already understood from previous statements that you don't get the rules of a discussion, no reason to reiterate your point. I think that your comment requires a translation into something which should be meaningful and understandable.

What "previous statements"? What "rules of a discussion" that "[I] don't get"? What "point" [of mine] requires "no reason to reiterate"? BC -- "Everybody wants to go to Heaven but nobody wants to die." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 04:50:41PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Hi,

When the roadmap was discussed, I said we would decide on the version number when we have a clearer picture about what would make up the new version.

So as Milestone5 is on the mirrors and I'm myself preparing for christmas holidays, I wonder: what's your oppinion on the version number? I myself prefer 11.4, but I have no strong objection against 12.0 if this is what the majority wants.

To there is not enough new material in 11.4 to make it a major release, so 11.4

Well, the original message stated that there had to be: - drastic changes in user experience during installation or the way linux works - drastic changes in the base system that make it much harder than usual to do live updates. But there's probably not going to be a "drastic change to the way Linux works" in any near year timeframe ever. Linux is all about constant little improvements all the time. If you go back and look at a distro from 5 years ago, yeah, it looks hugely different, faster, and nicer. But we aren't doing 5 year releases, we are doing them in months. So I don't think these requirements are _ever_ going to be met in the next 3 years at the very least for openSUSE. So, that means we stick with the 11.X series for a long time? Or we should redefine what the rules should be :) However, we do have things in 11.4 that seem much "larger" than normal: - systemd, a major way the boot process works, speeding things up massively - all wireless devices supported by open drivers - major 3d open driver advancements - large KDE advancements from previous releases - Tumbleweed providing "rolling" updates - possible MeeGo(tm) "spin" for netbooks So, given that, I'd say this is as good a time as any to advance the major number. Otherwise, what specifically is it going to take to move the major number that could possibly happen in the next few years. thanks, greg k-h p.s. This is why I feel the whole major.minor numbering scheme for software is broken, and just use 1 number for projects that I was/am in charge of naming (udev, usbutils, etc.) I think it's worked out much better that way over the long-term. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Greg KH [12-16-10 12:10]:

...

So, that means we stick with the 11.X series for a long time? Or we should redefine what the rules should be :)

However, we do have things in 11.4 that seem much "larger" than normal: - systemd, a major way the boot process works, speeding things up massively - all wireless devices supported by open drivers - major 3d open driver advancements - large KDE advancements from previous releases - Tumbleweed providing "rolling" updates - possible MeeGo(tm) "spin" for netbooks

So, given that, I'd say this is as good a time as any to advance the major number. Otherwise, what specifically is it going to take to move the major number that could possibly happen in the next few years.

Not. I agree that 11.4 has been presented and *should* continue.

Major numbers should reflect and follow major kernel changes, then there is a standard and no debate about the version numbers

What are "major kernel changes"? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-4.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Greg KH wrote:

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 04:50:41PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

To me there is not enough new material in 11.4 to make it a major release, so 11.4

Well, the original message stated that there had to be: - drastic changes in user experience during installation or the way linux works - drastic changes in the base system that make it much harder than usual to do live updates.

But there's probably not going to be a "drastic change to the way Linux works" in any near year timeframe ever. Linux is all about constant little improvements all the time.

If you go back and look at a distro from 5 years ago, yeah, it looks hugely different, faster, and nicer. But we aren't doing 5 year releases, we are doing them in months.

So I don't think these requirements are _ever_ going to be met in the next 3 years at the very least for openSUSE.

If openSUSE, like Linux, is "all about constant little improvements all the time", you're absolutely right. In which case we should just continue with 11.4-5-6-7-8-9 etcetera. (this sounds a lot more like Tumbleweed though?) Otherwise, if we desire to have major and minor releases, we should gather significant improvements/changes into one release, which will then make it major.

So, that means we stick with the 11.X series for a long time? Or we should redefine what the rules should be :)

I have a distinct feeling of deja vu - didn't we have this version numbering discussion a few months back?

However, we do have things in 11.4 that seem much "larger" than normal:

- systemd, a major way the boot process works, speeding things up massively - all wireless devices supported by open drivers - major 3d open driver advancements - large KDE advancements from previous releases - Tumbleweed providing "rolling" updates - possible MeeGo(tm) "spin" for netbooks

Putting on my reality/functionality-filtering glasses :-) , that becomes: - systemd, a major way the boot process works, potentially speeding up things massively possibly plus: - major 3d open driver advancements - large KDE advancements from previous releases I'm classifying those as "possible" because I don't know if they are significant enough to be noticed by the end-user?

p.s. This is why I feel the whole major.minor numbering scheme for software is broken, and just use 1 number for projects that I was/am in charge of naming (udev, usbutils, etc.) I think it's worked out much better that way over the long-term.

A working major.minor versioning scheme requires a purpose and active management. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-4.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 9:29 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On Thursday 16 December 2010 18:53:14 Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 04:50:41PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Greg KH wrote: possibly plus: - major 3d open driver advancements - large KDE advancements from previous releases

I'm classifying those as "possible" because I don't know if they are significant enough to be noticed by the end-user?

Both the 3d open drivers and the KDE advancements are indeed noticable - IF you use a KDE desktop with 3D effects... If not, you won't notice much :D

It's not the first time you use KDE arguments. I'll recall you from the last Marketing meeting, when you said: "KDE would never do that, so we won't go that way" (not ipsis verbis). I'm starting to believe that there is a conflict on interests on your side.

So that's a problem we have, we have a hard time with a lack of sync between KDE and GNOME and LXDE/XFCE etc here... GNOME is about to release 3.0 but we just don't ship that. I guess our next release will ship with GNOME 3.0, will have a newer KDE too, and other cool stuff as usual - seeing the enthousiasm in the project lately (resulting in new projects like Bretzn, Tumbleweed & Evergreen) I expect more :D

GNOME upstream as asked kindly to distributions to unite on the release of GNOME3. I do support this claim from the GNOME Project, as we should provide all the support for an awesome release of gnome-shell. Nevertheless 11.4 seems to be a GNOME2.32 distro, so I would keep it that way. Additionally, isn't this a bit late to take such moves when most people are already waiting on 11.4, when some communication has been made as 11.4. You speak so highly of marketing, then tell me, what are the implications of such change and possible 'negative/positive' impacts on such a change? Maybe it's time to face openSUSE a whole and not only from the scope of KDE (which might harm us)?

...

...

p.s. This is why I feel the whole major.minor numbering scheme for software is broken, and just use 1 number for projects that I was/am in charge of naming (udev, usbutils, etc.)  I think it's worked out much better that way over the long-term.

A working major.minor versioning scheme requires a purpose and active management.

-- nelson marques nmo.marques@gmail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 20 December 2010 21:08:32 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 18:42:09 +0000, Nelson Marques

wrote:

...

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 9:29 AM, Jos Poortvliet

...

wrote:

...

On Thursday 16 December 2010 18:53:14 Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 04:50:41PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

Greg KH wrote: possibly plus: - major 3d open driver advancements - large KDE advancements from previous releases

I'm classifying those as "possible" because I don't know if they are significant enough to be noticed by the end-user?

Both the 3d open drivers and the KDE advancements are indeed noticable

-

...

...

IF you use a KDE desktop with 3D effects... If not, you won't notice much : :D : It's not the first time you use KDE arguments. I'll recall you from the last Marketing meeting, when you said: "KDE would never do that, so we won't go that way" (not ipsis verbis). I'm starting to believe that there is a conflict on interests on your side.

...

So that's a problem we have, we have a hard time with a lack of sync between KDE and GNOME and LXDE/XFCE etc here... GNOME is about to release 3.0 but we just don't ship that. I guess our next release will ship with GNOME

3.0,

...

...

will have a newer KDE too, and other cool stuff as usual - seeing the enthousiasm in the project lately (resulting in new projects like Bretzn,

Tumbleweed

...

...

& Evergreen) I expect more :D

GNOME upstream as asked kindly to distributions to unite on the release of GNOME3. I do support this claim from the GNOME Project, as we should provide all the support for an awesome release of gnome-shell. Nevertheless 11.4 seems to be a GNOME2.32 distro, so I would keep it that way.

Additionally, isn't this a bit late to take such moves when most people are already waiting on 11.4, when some communication has been made as 11.4. You speak so highly of marketing, then tell me, what are the implications of such change and possible 'negative/positive' impacts on such a change?

Maybe it's time to face openSUSE a whole and not only from the scope of KDE (which might harm us)?

...

...

...

p.s. This is why I feel the whole major.minor numbering scheme for software is broken, and just use 1 number for projects that I was/am in charge of naming (udev, usbutils, etc.) I think it's worked out much better that way over the long-term.

A working major.minor versioning scheme requires a purpose and active management.

I'm not up to speed on the latest "discussions" and "debates" in the Linux desktop arena, but I've got some pretty strong opinions about the subject.

1. First of all, on full-sized laptops and desktops, Windows still has about 89.5% market share and MacOS X about 9.5%. *All* Linux desktops are competing with each other for the remaining 1%!

2. On netbooks, it's anybody's guess whether Windows, ChromeOS, Meego or one of the "netbook remixes" will dominate. I've applied for a pilot ChromeOS Cr-48 unit as a developer, but if I don't get one, I'm planning to make a bootable USB stick and see what it does on my laptop. I'll probably test Meego out in a virtual machine, but I'm not planning to buy a Meego-compatible netbook now that ChromeOS netbooks are on their way to market. I'm guessing, since Apple doesn't do netbooks and Windows is moving into phones and tablets, that the netbook market will be split between ChromeOS (Google and Verizon and whatever manufacturers are in it) and Meego (Nokia, Intel, the Linux Foundation, and probably everybody that hates Google).

3. Desktops are about making information workers productive - period. They're *not* about eye candy or games or media consumption. And they are most assuredly *not* about free in either the freedom or price sense! Media consumption is being handled very well by the iPad. Games are being handled very well by game consoles. Remember, 99% of the information workers are using desktops free in neither the freedom or price sense.

I use Linux desktops for one reason and one reason alone. For the kind of information work I do, data science and algorithmic composition of music mostly - GNU/Linux provides the largest collection of useful software. I use Gnome 2.xx now, but in the past I've used WindowMaker and KDE 3 and KDE 4, and I've tried Enlightenment and XFCE and LXDE as well. I haven't tried Gnome 3 or Unity or any of the other attempts at a "new! improved! Linux desktop". And I use openSUSE because its "standard" desktops - Gnome, KDE, XFCE, LXDE and IceWM - are better integrated with the open source browsers, productivity suites and multimedia tools than any of the other distros.

Don't worry, there is nothing KDE vs GNOME about this. More of a mis- understanding or repeated-mis-reading.

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 09:21:20 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

...

3. Desktops are about making information workers productive - period. They're *not* about eye candy or games or media consumption.

I would qualify that slightly differently -

Desktops are _primarily_ about making information workers productive - eye candy, games and media consumption are secondary, but nonetheless important.

-- Per Jessen, Zürich (3.8°C)

Up until the iPad took off, I would have agreed with you - Windows home users *were* about games and media consumption. But I think the tide is turning and consumers really don't want the hassle of a "whole PC" when they can get game consoles and tablets and phones that show movies and play games. -- http://twitter.com/znmeb http://borasky-research.net "A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems." -- Paul Erdős -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

I don't use any of my opnSUSE On 12/21/2010 01:22 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

...

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 09:21:20 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

...

3. Desktops are about making information workers productive - period. They're *not* about eye candy or games or media consumption.

I would qualify that slightly differently -

Desktops are _primarily_ about making information workers productive - eye candy, games and media consumption are secondary, but nonetheless important.

Up until the iPad took off, I would have agreed with you - Windows home users *were* about games and media consumption. But I think the tide is turning and consumers really don't want the hassle of a "whole PC" when they can get game consoles and tablets and phones that show movies and play games.

Sofar I have only seen one iPad, and the people who bought it are pretty "gadgety". They're also the only ones I know with an iPhone. I'm sure both will become increasingly popular, but I don't see that having any real impact on what openSUSE/Linux needs to be good at.

I don't use any of my openSUSE systems for anything productive according to parent. I am pretty insulted actually. The last thing I actually care about is if openSUSE is fit for "information workers." Maybe those information "information workers" should break down and buy a copy of SLED. Steven -- Sent from my Linux box. Regards de KC6KGE. A very happy Flex-3000 user. Skype flamebait Gmail flamebait at gmail dot com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

*my last attempt to explain the (too long, esp during a meeting) discussion we had on #opensuse-marketing

You said we had to make developers tell the marketing team what new features were in their projects.

Based on the fact that the devels are the ones who should provide that information for several reasons, being the most important of them, the fact that they would be the best persons to highlight the great advancements on their projects and how they would benefit more. You proposed that us dig Changelogs (how many on the marketing team have the tech know-how to read a Changelog and select the best features?), making that like our own decision and use openFATE (which I stated it sucked for that purpose) because openFATE translates the users needs which is awesome (and I'm thankful for it to happen that way), on the other side, openFATE might not translate the true potential implementations and innovations present on the release.

I told you we could try and some would answer (like GNOME and KDE teams) but most wouldn't (kernel, Xorg). As is the case in most FOSS communities - developers care mostly about code, marketing isn't that interesting. Something I understand.

I did got a positive answer from GNOME and psankar offered his right promptly to work on the Feature list. Also on the GNOME meeting Vincent Untz made very clear that there are some generic guidelines proposed by the GNOME Project to support the release of GNOME shell across distributions. I see many people and random comments about working together, this initiative from GNOME places us a opportunity to accomplish it. You were the one who tossed away the opportunity of developers to participate on this by stating that KDE would never go for it. That's your words, not mine. And to me, this clearly indicates a conflict of interests, while openSUSE should be your highest priority for this matter, not what KDE thinks. If they wanted to do it... cool it would've been a poorer feature rich list... but that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to measure all other projects and cripple the chance for participation. In fact you doubled the work I was already pushing on the wiki. Instead of promoting collaborative work within reasonable times, you suggested that the mass of the work would be done at FOSCOM in a meeting, thus increasing the amount of funding for it to happen and striking out people who can't attend FOSCOM because they have $dayjobs. I've sorry but you complicated unnecessarily this issue which triggered my 'bail out' on openSUSE Marketing because I don't see that you or Bryen are leading efforts in a real maner to improve things and choose the easier way just to get 'things done'. For me it's far more important how things are done and that a proper method can be implemented than just scrapping stuff on the last minute. I'm sorry but we will never agree on this kind of things... either we push things into a better scenario where we can be more attractive or we will always have problems expanding the community to 'normal people'.

And I told you I tried it during my KDE marketing times, and got - well, somewhere, but not to the point where the marketing team didn't have to spend quite some time bothering developers again and again and reading changelogs to find the major features.

As project, and specially YOU as Community Leader should've escalated those subjects for Boosts, Board and even press on sponsors to make it happen that way, not because I want, but because that was an opportunity to improve to a more consistent workflow with methodology that would allow us to highlight the developers work and their concerns, thus improving the communication efficiency towards our audiences by serving better our developers concerns and their projects within openSUSE. I don't find this hard as several people I've contacted promptly offered their help (example provided above). I tried to call you upon reason, highlighting that if you were unable to provide a favourable outcome and contact boosters/board to help us on this issue, instead you tossed everything away explaining KDE would never do it... That raised to me a lot of questions, specially when to me it became clear you are trying to use a 'short' group of people to accomplish a task during a certain moment on a certain location to fix something that could be accomplished without so much efforts in budget and involving a larger work force. I'm totally against having Marketing to work a release in a time frame of 1 month and 2 weeks as you will do.

You repeated that the world had to be like you wanted it to be. I repeated it wasn't.

First you demonized the devs and other contributors by giving the answer that they would never provide a list of features, now you demonize me. Within a year or two you should make a balance of how many new people are actually working for openSUSE Marketing, then maybe you will realize that we're not attractive for contributors...

In short, I advocated realism based on earlier experiences. If you call that bias and are now scared of the future of GNOME in openSUSE, by all means, be scared. I doubt anything will change your mind.

And I advocated realism based on recent experiences (ex: GNOME). Thanks for stopping innovation (which might not suit you because you are more concerned about leveraging your position than taking openSUSE Marketing to excel and provide a realist work flow. But maybe you're goal is all about getting work done only on events at a far more expandable costs for our sponsors). Thanks for your 'earlier experience', that gives quite a good pointers on what we can expect for the future and why we don't improve. By the way, what part of your experience supports that you say to a contributor things like: "they will laugh on your face"... I wouldn't mind that the whole community would laugh on my face as long as they could provide us the material we need to better support their projects in openSUSE marketing. Maybe a bit more of respect for those who don't earn their living from FOSS and still give their time without asking nothing in return trying to help? By the way, you also demonized the community with that sentence. No I didnt felt offended personally.

BTW I have a strong suspicion that you either don't read other ppl's comments at all OR choose to ignore random words in there. Otherwise I have no idea how you could get to the point of worrying about GNOME vs KDE after the discussion we had at marketing.

"Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil." - Nicollo Machiavelli. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Jos Poortvliet [12-20-10 16:39]:

On Monday 20 December 2010 22:16:56 Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...

*my last attempt to explain the (too long, esp during a meeting) discussion we had on #opensuse-marketing

You said we had to make developers tell the marketing team what new features were in their projects.

Based on the fact that the devels are the ones who should provide that information for several reasons, being the most important of them, the fact that they would be the best persons to highlight the great advancements on their projects and how they would benefit more.

You proposed that us dig Changelogs (how many on the marketing team have the tech know-how to read a Changelog and select the best features?), making that like our own decision and use openFATE (which I stated it sucked for that purpose) because openFATE translates the users needs which is awesome (and I'm thankful for it to happen that way), on the other side, openFATE might not translate the true potential implementations and innovations present on the release.

...

I told you we could try and some would answer (like GNOME and KDE teams) but most wouldn't (kernel, Xorg). As is the case in most FOSS communities - developers care mostly about code, marketing isn't that interesting. Something I understand.

I did got a positive answer from GNOME and psankar offered his right promptly to work on the Feature list. Also on the GNOME meeting Vincent Untz made very clear that there are some generic guidelines proposed by the GNOME Project to support the release of GNOME shell across distributions. I see many people and random comments about working together, this initiative from GNOME places us a opportunity to accomplish it.

You were the one who tossed away the opportunity of developers to participate on this by stating that KDE would never go for it.

That's why I said re-read the discussion. I said it didn't work in KDE and it wouldn't work here - at least not to the extend that the marketing team can just watch the features flow in. I explicitly stated that both the GNOME and the KDE team in openSUSE would probably do this, as I know the people involved understand the value of marketing AND are willing to put in time.

Many other developers care less, or rather, have other priorities.

I won't go further into your mail(s), you have last word.

...

That's your words, not mine. And to me, this clearly indicates a conflict of interests, while openSUSE should be your highest priority for this matter, not what KDE thinks. If they wanted to do it... cool it would've been a poorer feature rich list... but that doesn't give you or anyone else the right to measure all other projects and cripple the chance for participation. In fact you doubled the work I was already pushing on the wiki.

Instead of promoting collaborative work within reasonable times, you suggested that the mass of the work would be done at FOSCOM in a meeting, thus increasing the amount of funding for it to happen and striking out people who can't attend FOSCOM because they have $dayjobs. I've sorry but you complicated unnecessarily this issue which triggered my 'bail out' on openSUSE Marketing because I don't see that you or Bryen are leading efforts in a real maner to improve things and choose the easier way just to get 'things done'. For me it's far more important how things are done and that a proper method can be implemented than just scrapping stuff on the last minute.

I'm sorry but we will never agree on this kind of things... either we push things into a better scenario where we can be more attractive or we will always have problems expanding the community to 'normal people'.

...

And I told you I tried it during my KDE marketing times, and got - well, somewhere, but not to the point where the marketing team didn't have to spend quite some time bothering developers again and again and reading changelogs to find the major features.

As project, and specially YOU as Community Leader should've escalated those subjects for Boosts, Board and even press on sponsors to make it happen that way, not because I want, but because that was an opportunity to improve to a more consistent workflow with methodology that would allow us to highlight the developers work and their concerns, thus improving the communication efficiency towards our audiences by serving better our developers concerns and their projects within openSUSE.

I don't find this hard as several people I've contacted promptly offered their help (example provided above). I tried to call you upon reason, highlighting that if you were unable to provide a favourable outcome and contact boosters/board to help us on this issue, instead you tossed everything away explaining KDE would never do it... That raised to me a lot of questions, specially when to me it became clear you are trying to use a 'short' group of people to accomplish a task during a certain moment on a certain location to fix something that could be accomplished without so much efforts in budget and involving a larger work force.

I'm totally against having Marketing to work a release in a time frame of 1 month and 2 weeks as you will do.

...

You repeated that the world had to be like you wanted it to be. I repeated it wasn't.

First you demonized the devs and other contributors by giving the answer that they would never provide a list of features, now you demonize me. Within a year or two you should make a balance of how many new people are actually working for openSUSE Marketing, then maybe you will realize that we're not attractive for contributors...

...

In short, I advocated realism based on earlier experiences. If you call that bias and are now scared of the future of GNOME in openSUSE, by all means, be scared. I doubt anything will change your mind.

And I advocated realism based on recent experiences (ex: GNOME). Thanks for stopping innovation (which might not suit you because you are more concerned about leveraging your position than taking openSUSE Marketing to excel and provide a realist work flow. But maybe you're goal is all about getting work done only on events at a far more expandable costs for our sponsors). Thanks for your 'earlier experience', that gives quite a good pointers on what we can expect for the future and why we don't improve.

By the way, what part of your experience supports that you say to a contributor things like: "they will laugh on your face"... I wouldn't mind that the whole community would laugh on my face as long as they could provide us the material we need to better support their projects in openSUSE marketing. Maybe a bit more of respect for those who don't earn their living from FOSS and still give their time without asking nothing in return trying to help?

By the way, you also demonized the community with that sentence. No I didnt felt offended personally.

...

BTW I have a strong suspicion that you either don't read other ppl's comments at all OR choose to ignore random words in there. Otherwise I have no idea how you could get to the point of worrying about GNOME vs KDE after the discussion we had at marketing.

"Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil." - Nicollo Machiavelli.

This thread would be much easier to read and keep up on if everyone would provide a little more quoted material. Really, one and two sentence comments surely do not require full message quoting. Please feel admonished! -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 16/12/2010 18:09, Greg KH a écrit :

p.s. This is why I feel the whole major.minor numbering scheme for software is broken,

most people I know think openSUSE is still the 11 flavor so, keep 11.4 for this time, then go to 12, 13.... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Chuck Payne wrote:

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 1:21 PM, jdd wrote:

...

Le 16/12/2010 18:09, Greg KH a écrit :

...

p.s. This is why I feel the whole major.minor numbering scheme for software is broken,

most people I know think openSUSE is still the 11 flavor

so, keep 11.4 for this time, then go to 12, 13....

jdd

-- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

I thought we had this talk back, after 11.3 came out. I have to agree with those that for now keep it 11.4 for, we can make the next one 12.0.

The decision then was to stick to the 11.x, 12,x, 13,x scheme. And to evaluate each release a few months prior to the formal release to see if a major version number change was warranted. Thus this discussion. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 16/12/10 19:21, jdd wrote:

so, keep 11.4 for this time, then go to 12, 13....

This was exactly my idea when previous conversation happened. For me it is the best option. Why? a) we don't need to change the way of our next release marketing (11.4) b) we don't have to discuss if some future version is worth bumping major version or just minor version, ever! c) we don't use date in version, so we can afford slipping the release if we really need to and don't ship broken releases like Ubuntu does -- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol RUSNAK SUSE LINUX, s.r.o openSUSE Boosters Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xA6917144 19000 Praha 9 prusnak[at]opensuse.org Czech Republic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 17.12.2010 13:34, Stephan Kleine wrote:

...

On 16/12/10 19:21, jdd wrote:

...

so, keep 11.4 for this time, then go to 12, 13.... This was exactly my idea when previous conversation happened. For me it is the best option. Why?

a) we don't need to change the way of our next release marketing (11.4) b) we don't have to discuss if some future version is worth bumping major version or just minor version, ever! c) we don't use date in version, so we can afford slipping the release if we really need to and don't ship broken releases like Ubuntu does +1000. Best stuff I read on the whole codename, release numbering, .... on

On Friday December 17 2010 13:20:33 Pavol Rusnak wrote: this list ever.

regards, Stephan +1001 Maybe we can make 12.0 as a really new release that brings some revolutionary new.

kind regards kdl -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) Kernel 2.4.37.10-kdl Maintainer Powered by openSUSE 11.2 "Emerald" GNOME This mail was composed under Linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 17.12.2010 15:02, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 14:55 +0100, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

On 17.12.2010 13:34, Stephan Kleine wrote:

...

...

On 16/12/10 19:21, jdd wrote:

...

so, keep 11.4 for this time, then go to 12, 13.... This was exactly my idea when previous conversation happened. For me it is the best option. Why? a) we don't need to change the way of our next release marketing (11.4) b) we don't have to discuss if some future version is worth bumping major version or just minor version, ever! c) we don't use date in version, so we can afford slipping the release if we really need to and don't ship broken releases like Ubuntu does +1000. Best stuff I read on the whole codename, release numbering, .... on

On Friday December 17 2010 13:20:33 Pavol Rusnak wrote: this list ever. regards, Stephan +1001 Maybe we can make 12.0 as a really new release that brings some revolutionary new. I thought it was just "12" and not "12.0" ;)

I don't care how the version numbers are assigned - openSUSE w/GNOME rocks, I [and our department] use it five to six days a week eight or more hours a day. Stable, productive, and just a little bit awesome.

Yes, it rocks. I know. We know. I think everybody knows ;) But when we talking on version numbers, we should think of the major.minor.release scheme. A release scheme like Ubuntu will bring some issues when it's time for a bugfix release (e.g. 11.4.1). Maybe we will do 11.4 as 11.4. Then we wait till GNOME 3. I think a desktop environment is an important thing for a Linux distribution. a first version of GNOME 3 we bring with 11.5. When GNOME3 is stable enough (I hope it don't take so much time like KDE 4) we release 12.0 or 12 with a stable GNOME 3 and KDE 4.x or maybe KDE 5. kind regards kdl -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) Kernel 2.4.37.10-kdl Maintainer Powered by openSUSE 11.2 "Emerald" GNOME This mail was composed under Linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 17.12.2010 18:28, jdd wrote:

but who cares of Gnome? was there a major number change for KDE4? (joking) No. But that is not the point I mean. In KDE 4 (4.0, 4.1, 4.2) have been some real bad bugs. If the same happened with GNOME 3, and openSUSE 12.0 (or just openSUSE 12) comes with GNOME 3, this will not show a good all in one picture of the distribution. Maybe it's a high level I want to have in a major release, but a failed desktop environment is a point, were I say: OK, next distro.

so far kdl -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) Kernel 2.4.37.10-kdl Maintainer Powered by openSUSE 11.2 "Emerald" GNOME This mail was composed under Linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 17.12.2010 15:54, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

On 17/12/10 12:20, Pavol Rusnak wrote:

...

a) we don't need to change the way of our next release marketing (11.4) b) we don't have to discuss if some future version is worth bumping major version or just minor version, ever! c) we don't use date in version, so we can afford slipping the release if we really need to and don't ship broken releases like Ubuntu does I agree that openSUSE should not be based on a major.minor versioning scheme. The reason is fairly obvious: we don't release minor versions. It's not like a Win XP SP2 or so. I would therefore also be inclined to switch to a different system at some point, which uses a single unique identifier for a release. Whether we should adopt the Fedora versioning scheme (12, 13, ...) or come up with a different one is another question. Some people might prefer Fedora 18 over openSUSE 12 because the 18 just seems to be more up-to-date than the 12. I am not sure whether that's relevant, though. Just some thoughts.

Thomas

PS: I think a major.minor versioning scheme makes sense for software that really has proper bugfix/minor releases. In our company, we bump up the major version whenever something stops being backwards compatible. If we ship minor updates that are fully backwards compatible, we only bump up the minor version number. Of course such a scheme wouldn't work for an entire OS as there's probably always something that isn't fully backwards compatible.

Well, maybe a release scheme like 2010.12 will be the best way. I don't agree that there aren't any bugfixes. Maybe they comming in the future. kind regards kdl PS: Let talk on the generell numbering in the Time for a change Thread, that you all have get. -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) Kernel 2.4.37.10-kdl Maintainer Powered by openSUSE 11.2 "Emerald" GNOME This mail was composed under Linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 17.12.2010 16:23, Thomas Hertweck wrote:

For the next release, it's IMHO too late to make any significant changes, so it should be called 11.4. For the future we should think about alternatives, and we should come to some conclusions relatively soon so everybody knows in which direction we are heading. +1 Make a change now will confuse the users and maybe some people leave openSUSE and use a other ditro, bacause they think that they can't use 12.

kind regards kdl -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) Kernel 2.4.37.10-kdl Maintainer Powered by openSUSE 11.2 "Emerald" GNOME This mail was composed under Linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 11:00 AM, David Alston wrote:

...

...

For the next release, it's IMHO too late to make any significant changes, so it should be called 11.4. For the future we should think about alternatives, and we should come to some conclusions relatively soon so everybody knows in which direction we are heading. +1 Make a change now will confuse the users and maybe some people leave openSUSE and use a other ditro, bacause they think that they can't use

Add another +1.  I agree.

If I read the arguments right, the basic consensus is that waiting this long into the distro rollout roadmap to pick a final version number is a bad idea. I argue that although waiting until this point in the roadmap was the agreed on plan for 11.4 / 12.0 a different strategy needs to be used in the future. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

>p.s. This is why I feel the whole major.minor numbering scheme for
>software is broken, and just use 1 number for projects that I was/am in
>charge of naming (udev, usbutils, etc.)  I think it's worked out much
>better that way over the long-term.

I disagree with Greg's opinion of the major.minor scheme. I like it because it gives you the chance to update the system a year or two after the release. How would we do it as the versions are 2010.12.16?

To come back to the topic: I'm for 11.4. It looks more than a evolution than a revolution. Maybe we can do 12.0 in September 2011 when Linux becomes 20 years?


>But there's probably not going to be a "drastic change to the way Linux
>works" in any near year timeframe ever.  Linux is all about constant
>little improvements all the time.

I agree 100%.+


kind regards
kdl








On 16.12.2010 18:09, Greg KH wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 04:50:41PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
>> Stephan Kulow wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> When the roadmap was discussed, I said we would decide on the version
>>> number when we have a clearer picture about what would make up the
>>> new version.
>>>
>>> So as Milestone5 is on the mirrors and I'm myself preparing for
>>> christmas holidays, I wonder: what's your oppinion on the version
>>> number? I myself prefer 11.4, but I have no strong objection against
>>> 12.0 if this is what the majority wants.
>> To there is not enough new material in 11.4 to make it a major release,
>> so 11.4
> Well, the original message stated that there had to be:
> 	- drastic changes in user experience during installation or the
> 	  way linux works
> 	- drastic changes in the base system that make it much harder
> 	  than usual to do live updates.
>
> But there's probably not going to be a "drastic change to the way Linux
> works" in any near year timeframe ever.  Linux is all about constant
> little improvements all the time.
>
> If you go back and look at a distro from 5 years ago, yeah, it looks
> hugely different, faster, and nicer.  But we aren't doing 5 year
> releases, we are doing them in months.
>
> So I don't think these requirements are _ever_ going to be met in the
> next 3 years at the very least for openSUSE.
>
> So, that means we stick with the 11.X series for a long time?  Or we
> should redefine what the rules should be :)
>
> However, we do have things in 11.4 that seem much "larger" than normal:
> 	- systemd, a major way the boot process works, speeding things
> 	  up massively
> 	- all wireless devices supported by open drivers
> 	- major 3d open driver advancements
> 	- large KDE advancements from previous releases
> 	- Tumbleweed providing "rolling" updates
> 	- possible MeeGo(tm) "spin" for netbooks
>
> So, given that, I'd say this is as good a time as any to advance the
> major number.  Otherwise, what specifically is it going to take to move
> the major number that could possibly happen in the next few years.
>
> thanks,
>
> greg k-h
>
> p.s. This is why I feel the whole major.minor numbering scheme for
> software is broken, and just use 1 number for projects that I was/am in
> charge of naming (udev, usbutils, etc.)  I think it's worked out much
> better that way over the long-term.


-- 
Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de)
Kernel 2.4.37.10-kdl Maintainer
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On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

How does the "synchronization" between openSUSE and SUSE Linux Enterprise happen? If openSUSE "suddenly" changed from 11.4 to 12.0 for a March 2011 release, what would happen to SUSE Linux Enterprise?

I think I've said it before: Don't worry about SUSE Linux Enterprise here. Versioning schemes drifting apart is just one of the consequences of relinquishing (central) control around openSUSE. Now, personally I feel that abandoning the difference of "major" and "minor" releases for openSUSE will be a plus and I recommend doing it, but that is just one voice. Gerald (visiting dinosaurs right now, thus mostly offline) -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer Director Product Management, SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 22 December 2010 13:59:49 Andrew Wafaa wrote:

OK now call me old fashioned if you wish, I don't mind, but the old geeko's numbering scheme is fairly unique and has been relatively consistent since I started using it (around 6.2).

What is the consistency besides randomly increasing the major or the minor number? Even the first release was 4.2, not 1.0 or at least 4.0. I know there used to be releases where the bump in major number was a significant change, but this won't happen in the foreseeable future or am I wrong? I don't oppose the current numbering scheme, but then we should try to make clear that we choose to have no system except old_releasenumber < new_releasenumber, currently people might get the impression a bump from 11.3 to 12.0 might be more exiting then from 11.3 to 11.4. Regards, Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 22/12/2010 18:05, Kim Leyendecker a écrit :

The final point: We can say next release will be a great release and can make some new, fresh and revolutionary called 12.0

I could be a great idea to think of something *openSUSE* related that make the 12 great. For example, change the default (box) support to USB flash... no more dvd jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 16 December 2010 18:09:11 Greg KH wrote:

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 04:50:41PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Hi,

When the roadmap was discussed, I said we would decide on the version number when we have a clearer picture about what would make up the new version.

So as Milestone5 is on the mirrors and I'm myself preparing for christmas holidays, I wonder: what's your oppinion on the version number? I myself prefer 11.4, but I have no strong objection against 12.0 if this is what the majority wants.

To there is not enough new material in 11.4 to make it a major release, so 11.4

Well, the original message stated that there had to be: - drastic changes in user experience during installation or the way linux works - drastic changes in the base system that make it much harder than usual to do live updates.

But there's probably not going to be a "drastic change to the way Linux works" in any near year timeframe ever. Linux is all about constant little improvements all the time.

If you go back and look at a distro from 5 years ago, yeah, it looks hugely different, faster, and nicer. But we aren't doing 5 year releases, we are doing them in months.

So I don't think these requirements are _ever_ going to be met in the next 3 years at the very least for openSUSE.

So, that means we stick with the 11.X series for a long time? Or we should redefine what the rules should be :)

However, we do have things in 11.4 that seem much "larger" than normal: - systemd, a major way the boot process works, speeding things up massively - all wireless devices supported by open drivers - major 3d open driver advancements - large KDE advancements from previous releases - Tumbleweed providing "rolling" updates - possible MeeGo(tm) "spin" for netbooks

Note that any updates or additions to http://manugupt1.ietherpad.com/4 are greatly appreciated :D And that goes for everyone on this list... a quick check of this doc by half of you would make the marketing team incredibly happy :D

So, given that, I'd say this is as good a time as any to advance the major number. Otherwise, what specifically is it going to take to move the major number that could possibly happen in the next few years.

thanks,

greg k-h

p.s. This is why I feel the whole major.minor numbering scheme for software is broken, and just use 1 number for projects that I was/am in charge of naming (udev, usbutils, etc.) I think it's worked out much better that way over the long-term.

On Thursday 16 December 2010 17:04:12 Martin Schlander wrote:

Torsdag den 16. december 2010 10:55:56 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...

So as Milestone5 is on the mirrors and I'm myself preparing for christmas holidays, I wonder: what's your oppinion on the version number? I myself prefer 11.4, but I have no strong objection against 12.0 if this is what the majority wants.

11.4.

Unless maybe if we end up shipping kdepim4.6 as the default >:-) Then we should add 'beta' to the release name hehe

On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 12:04:51AM +0100, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

If you want a top-down decision I can find a monkey to trow a dice and announce it as Coolo's decision ;-)

I think that would be a wonderful idea, and would be glad to let the output of such an event dictate the number. It sounds like a wonderful marketing plan :) greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday, December 16, 2010 05:43:22 pm Dale Ritchey wrote:

My vote would be to keep 11.4 as is and use it as a springboard for the next cycle being 11.2

I believe that the jump from the 11.0 series to a 12.0 series would be good next time because the way things are shaping up 11.4 will mature the 11.0 series and while going from 11.4 to 12.0 might not be a big jump/ there will be big enough change from 11.0 to 12.0 warrant the change.

This sound like a plan. Also looking where is 11.4 mentioned gives quite a few hits: http://www.google.com/ site:opensuse.org "11.4" gives 33,600 results. site:opensuse.org "opensuse 11.4" 3,380 results. "opensuse 11.4" gives 78,600 results Also: http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.4-Milestone5 http://en.opensuse.org/Special:Search for 11.4 gives few prominent articles Now when everyone interested in openSUSE expects 11.4 is a bit late to change number without really good reason, but your proposal solves all problems. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 17/12/2010 00:04, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :

If you want a top-down decision I can find a monkey to trow a dice and announce it as Coolo's decision ;-)

may be necessary b:-)) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org