Leif Eriksson discovered America/Newfoundland around 1000AD, see e.g. Helge Ingstads obituary: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1328355/Helge-Ingstad.html

And the package to patch is ? :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I never head of any "Royal Academy of Science" here in Brazil, maybe you are referring to "Brazilian Academy of Letters", but it doesn't matter either.

That's it. :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

If Nelson finds the text to be offensive if displayed in portugese, it's one thing. But basing it on history facts is just nonsense. I've seen enough "my country is cooler than yours" fights on various forum, I don't need another one.

Stephan, It's not history, it's a cultural aspect, two very different things; The only general consence is that in the written form they are close, but on the semantical field it is very different. Portuguese as spoken in Portugal which came from Galaic-Portuguese (which I believe that is also a common root to Spanish) has it own roots, mainly influenced by 3 cultures: 1) SPQR - Romans/Latins; 2) Visigoths and Swabians - Germanic 3) Arabic This is not the case of Brazilian Portuguese, that is much more closer to angle-saxonic languages and some forms of african dialects (for which we are to blame). I find it weird that you select Portugal as localization and you get a text directed to Brazilians, implicitly. I fought this war a long time ago in Fedora and faced whoever came; I've learned something and I'm not going through the same stuff again... So if it's a patch, I'll gladly patch it... Now for your information on the biggest tech forum in Portugal, openSUSE got 5 users (me one of them) against legions of Fedora, Debian and Mint users (and another which name I shall not utter anymore, but known for it's fanboys). What's the explanation when you address a Portuguese audience with a message aimed for someone else? I believe it's OK with ya if we write the EULA for Germany in Turkish. Have a blast dude... and I'm not trying to DoS ya :) NM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/07/12 15:38, Per Jessen wrote:

Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...

If Nelson finds the text to be offensive if displayed in portugese, it's one thing. But basing it on history facts is just nonsense. I've seen enough "my country is cooler than yours" fights on various forum, I don't need another one. Stephan,

It's not history, it's a cultural aspect, two very different things; The only general consence is that in the written form they are close, but on the semantical field it is very different. In the past I've worked very closely with both Brazilians and Portuguese, and to them there were certainly two kinds of Portuguese language.

...

I find it weird that you select Portugal as localization and you get a text directed to Brazilians, implicitly. Is just a matter of a missing translation / locale?

Possibly, but I like Nelson's idea of writing the EULA for Germany using the Turkish language :-D . BC -- Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 & kernel 3.4.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Michal Kubeček writes:

IMHO this is something completely different. What would fit more would be if we displayed EULA to people in UK in US English (which we perhaps actually do).

Yes, that's the point. Or Norwegian Bokmaal as a fallback for Norwegian Nynorsk, or Czech as a fallback for Slovakian, etc. I was often told, that Brazil Portuguese (pt_BR) sounds strange to the people in Portugal speaking Portuguese (pt), but they can understand it, and often better than English. That's why pt speakers see the pt_BR license translation. Of course, there never was an intention to offend someone somewhere. So, if if the text needs adjustments we will adjust it. Or if you provide a dedicated pt variant we would add it to the package. -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE LINUX Products GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Nelson Marques wrote:

Is this now properly explained? Why is the main language spoken for over 1000 years is being assumed not to exist and a young fork of our main language with less than 200 years is being assumed as standard Portuguese ?

Perhaps Latin should be used, instead of French, Spanish, Portuguese etc. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Actually, I do understand very well Nelson's issue.

Carlos, If you are Spanish, then you know that you will be able to understand most of what a Portuguese says, but I doubt you can do the same with a Brazilian; It also happens a bit that way from our side, as I can understand most Spanish (though I refuse to speak in any form which isn't English with people from Castille), I'm not really able to understand a lot of stuff from spanish spoken for example in the Dominican Republic. On the other side, I also have doubts that for example an Irish and a Jamaican can really communicate at 100% as some people carefully chosed to compare English from the UK with the US; Lets assume it's a Scottish/Irish with a Jamaican ;) Though I refuse to say it out loud: Cierra España! NM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2012-07-12 at 20:25 +0200, todd rme wrote:

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 8:19 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...

Actually, I do understand very well Nelson's issue.

Carlos,

If you are Spanish, then you know that you will be able to understand most of what a Portuguese says, but I doubt you can do the same with a Brazilian; It also happens a bit that way from our side, as I can understand most Spanish (though I refuse to speak in any form which isn't English with people from Castille), I'm not really able to understand a lot of stuff from spanish spoken for example in the Dominican Republic.

On the other side, I also have doubts that for example an Irish and a Jamaican can really communicate at 100% as some people carefully chosed to compare English from the UK with the US; Lets assume it's a Scottish/Irish with a Jamaican ;)

Though I refuse to say it out loud: Cierra España!

NM

I learned Latin American Spanish and can understand Brazilian just fine.

-Todd

And that should conclude this thread with any further discussions being moved over to the translations ML. Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/12/2012 01:35 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

But it's just to say that YOU as openSUSE target an international community, you can't just go over cultural issues because you might be offending people.

so, have YOU offered and put your translation skills to work for YOU as an openSUSE user? dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

By the way, it is also a crime to encourage others to commit crimes! 2012/7/12 Nelson Marques :

...

so, have YOU offered and put your translation skills to work for YOU as an openSUSE user?

If I translate a legal document:

1) It is no longer a legal document as I'm not credited to perform official translations; 2) I can sued by counterfeit a legal document;

A License or EULA is a binding contract, therefore it's a legal document. What is the part you don't understand?

-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

i don't the part where you don't try to do something other than just complain about a problem--like, have a local attorney translate it and donate that to the community.

So the best way out we have is: 1) Having a contributor to pay 9€'s per line for a recognized organization to translate it; 2) Having a contributor to waste his own time by taking it to a 'Notário' so they can approve the translation (and pay the respective taxes, ~50€); Sounds good to me, since it's on behalf of my own kinsmen. Coolo, this operation will take from 2/3 weeks; is this still OK for inclusion and fix? To whom should I snail mail the official approved translation and the white stamped document recognizing its value as an original translation? Mail me in private the address and person to which I should send the stuff. I'll do such donation since it sounds to be the best way :) If it's a problem of money and good will... sure, my culture is worth far more than a few hundreds of euros. NM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 12 July 2012 16:11, DenverD wrote:

On 07/12/2012 04:44 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

Having a contributor to pay 9€'s per line

*or* having a contributor organize a group of individuals willing to share the burden..

*or* who knows, maybe there are 10 attorneys in any of these Linux user groups in Portugal, all willing to provide the translation and seals pro bono:

- GUL-ISCTE http://www.students.iscte.pt/~a12593/gul.html: Grupo de Utilizadores de Linux do ISCTE

- GIL http://gil.di.uminho.pt/: Grupo de Investigação Linux, Braga

- Lista Portuguesa de Linux http://linux.ispgaya.pt/, Villa Nova de Gaia

- Media Club Linux User Group , Lisbon

- PLUG http://www.plug.pt/: Portugese Linux User Group

note: that is from the first hit of this google https://www.google.com/search?q=linux+user+groups+Portugal it may not therefore be the best source of leads on potential help with this effort...there are other hits..

*or* perhaps the EU, which i'm certain has a huge legal staff and translation capability, can steer you toward EU resources or funding for such an important project..

POSIX badly needs a function to obtain the file descriptor of an email thread. Meanwhile could you please forget about portability, use email2fd() and redirect it to bnc#742778? Thanks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos, I will provide this document to openSUSE at my own expense; The steps are easy, get a proper translator to do the translation (Royal School of Languages); take the translated document to the local Court House, they will verify the translation and make sure everything is compliant. If everything is compliant, they will make 2 copies and use a white stamp on it; The white stamp is actually some sort of press machine that will carve the logo of the Ministery of Justice in the copies. There's no ink involved. Then I'll mail them to the head office of SUSE in Nurenberg at the attention of AJ, if it's ok with him; It's up to openSUSE to use or not use the stuff. From my perspective, then I'll know I did everything to get it done properly. NM 2012/7/12 Carlos E. R. :

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On 2012-07-12 15:55, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...

so, have YOU offered and put your translation skills to work for YOU as an openSUSE user?

If I translate a legal document:

1) It is no longer a legal document as I'm not credited to perform official translations; 2) I can sued by counterfeit a legal document;

A License or EULA is a binding contract, therefore it's a legal document. What is the part you don't understand?

You are correct. See some posts about this in the translation mail list:

+++······················· Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:16:44 +0200 From: Stephan Kulow <> To: opensuse-translation@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-translation] Licensetext

Hi!

For legal reasons the translations are done by contracted translators. ·······················++-

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2007-09/msg00038.html

More references:

+++······················· Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 14:35:32 +0200 From: Michael Skiba <> To: opensuse-translation@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-translation] openSUSE 11.0 EULA

Am Freitag, 25. April 2008 14:26:42 schrieb Kálmán Kéménczy:

...

Hi there,

When will be available the openSUSE 11.0 EULA for translation?

AFAIK the EULA is translated by hired translators, due to the legal aspects of this document. ·······················++-

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2008-04/msg00238.html

How the current issue can be solved, and who has to hire the translator, I don't know. You can ask in the translation mail list.

In some cases I had to translate licenses to Spanish, and what I do is that I add a disclaimer saying that the translation is a best effort, not legally binding, and please refer to the original English text - which also clashes with national laws that say that legally binding texts must be in Spanish. I'm not a lawyer, so I really don't know how international licenses/contracts etc apply across countries and languages, but it can happen that something that is legal in the English text can be rubbish in some languages or national legislations.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

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-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stephan, I've downloaded the sources from OBS (licenses-SL.tar.bz2) and I get this: bzip2: /home/nmarques/Downloads/license-SL.tar.bz2 is not a bzip2 file. tar: This does not look like a tar archive tar: Exiting with failure status due to previous errors -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

So what is it?

I guess it's a waste of time :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

From the current file (pt_BR):

1st line: CONTRATO DE LICENÇA translates into > "License Contract", ipsis verbis. "A contract is an agreement entered into voluntarily by two parties or more with the intention of creating a LEGAL OBLIGATION, which may have elements in writing, though contracts can be made orally." taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract NM 2012/7/12 Stephan Kulow :

Am 12.07.2012 19:46, schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2012-07-12 15:55, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...

so, have YOU offered and put your translation skills to work for YOU as an openSUSE user?

...

If I translate a legal document:

...

1) It is no longer a legal document as I'm not credited to perform official translations; 2) I can sued by counterfeit a legal document;

...

A License or EULA is a binding contract, therefore it's a legal document. What is the part you don't understand?

You are correct. See some posts about this in the translation mail list:

+++······················· Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 12:16:44 +0200 From: Stephan Kulow <> To: opensuse-translation@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-translation] Licensetext

Hi!

For legal reasons the translations are done by contracted translators. ·······················++-

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/2007-09/msg00038.html

This was true when it was a license *agreement*, but there is nothing to agree to anymore - the license is just displayed for convenience and even stated in the license that the translations are just there for convenience. Gosh, that was 2007 - I bet I even had hair left then.

Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I think you mean the Guinea Bissau. Guinea uses french and they wouldn't like you changing their official language without their knowledge.

Sorry, we're used in Portugal to say just Guinea, and Bissau the capital city of it; Sure, you are right. But you are right, it seems to be Guinea Bissau (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/pu.html). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

2012/7/13 Stephan Kulow :

Am 12.07.2012 11:32, schrieb Karl Eichwalder:

...

Michal Kubeček writes:

...

IMHO this is something completely different. What would fit more would be if we displayed EULA to people in UK in US English (which we perhaps actually do).

Yes, that's the point.

Or Norwegian Bokmaal as a fallback for Norwegian Nynorsk, or Czech as a fallback for Slovakian, etc.

I was often told, that Brazil Portuguese (pt_BR) sounds strange to the people in Portugal speaking Portuguese (pt), but they can understand it, and often better than English. That's why pt speakers see the pt_BR license translation.

No, they don't. Only if you select "Portuguese (Brazil)" you see the license translation, otherwise you see the english one.

So that bug can be closed as there isn't any real bug, right? Regards, Luiz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stephan, It did happened to me, and I'm pretty sure it was there; It doesn't matter anymore, and I don't recall stuff that happened in January. Either way I will provide an updated official translation for that text for the next release, as I find hard to get it done before I go in vacation. I've also want to correct one thing English > Portuguese is way much more cheaper than the price I've pointed before (which was actually based in another language that I need a few documentation translated for personal use), and the price per line is 1.5€'s (> 60 characters). So it's really not much burden to donate around 300€'s to openSUSE considering that it will serve the Portuguese people and others who speak our language, and openSUSE gets a proper legal binding document; Though there are some stuff that I believe that might be unconstitutional as I don't believe you can transfer jurisdiction to a US court, but that is not my problem. If you want I can run this doc through a lawyer fluent in international law to check this. NM 2012/7/13 Stephan Kulow :

Am 12.07.2012 11:32, schrieb Karl Eichwalder:

...

Michal Kubeček writes:

...

IMHO this is something completely different. What would fit more would be if we displayed EULA to people in UK in US English (which we perhaps actually do).

Yes, that's the point.

Or Norwegian Bokmaal as a fallback for Norwegian Nynorsk, or Czech as a fallback for Slovakian, etc.

I was often told, that Brazil Portuguese (pt_BR) sounds strange to the people in Portugal speaking Portuguese (pt), but they can understand it, and often better than English. That's why pt speakers see the pt_BR license translation.

No, they don't. Only if you select "Portuguese (Brazil)" you see the license translation, otherwise you see the english one.

Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org