June 2010 - openSUSE Project - openSUSE Mailing Lists

[opensuse-project] openSUSE Strategy Discussion: another proposal
by Marcus Moeller 21 Jul '10

21 Jul '10

Hi all. As I did not take part in the strategy meeting, I want to add my proposal, here. openSUSE - #1 KDE distribution Statement Most Linux distributions rely on a (more or less customized) GNOME desktop as default environment. openSUSE's advantage has always been the great KDE integration (and now even defaults to KDE in the desktop environment selection dialog). We should focus on that and make openSUSE the best KDE based desktop distribution available. This is not meant to start another flamewar, nor to completely drop GNOME (of course there still could be community supported Spins available), it's just about our primary focus. We need to be excellent in the following * Create a visual unique desktop experience with KDE * Adopt the latest KDE technology early, but care about stability * Offer the best platform for QT/KDE AND Java developers * Integrate MeeGo (focus on QT) * Lobby for KDE We will try to do the following effectively * Deliver a build service for building distribution and applications * Provide best desktop experiences with KDE and MeeGo (focus on QT) * Integrate social service apps, bind to connect.openSUSE.org * Bugfixing * Testing * Improving KDE upstream * Collaboration with other Linux distros As project, we will not focus on the following anymore * other desktop environments -- Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Possible strategy discussion topic: Education and Training
by Jim Henderson 21 Jul '10

21 Jul '10

I've been kicking this around for a little bit now in my own head, and I'd like to propose that the project develop a strategy around user education and training. For those who don't know, in my "day job", I work for Novell's Technical Training department as the testing program manager. In particular, I have responsibility for the business end of the practicum exam delivery (and if you want to talk about that with me, feel free to contact me off- list, I'm always happy to talk to people about their exam experiences, even if I can't get into specific details for their exam). In my role, I also am involved in technical certification, and work closely with people who develop training (I used to be a trainer myself for eDirectory, and developed the training materials to meet objectives we had for that product) as well as being involved to some extent in developing the next generation of training delivery. I was intrigued by an article in this month's Linux Format about Ubuntu's "Lernid" training system. It sounds like that project has a plan of sorts for training users on using their system, and this seems to me to be a way in which we could grow the community from which we are looking to draw contributors. In the forums, we've also had a couple of people express that some training on openSUSE would be very helpful and useful for them (either personally or to help people they knew learn about Linux and start using it). The way I see it, we could break down training into a few classifications: 1. End-user training 2. Contributor training (for example, how to write effective bugs, code style conventions, things like that) 3. Community training (where to ask what, what to expect, that sort of thing). In items 2 & 3, a lot of that content is in the wiki already - I see the largest opportunity as being #1. There may be a loose collection of things that fit in there as well (such as the howtos for configuring certain video cards), but from a training perspective, some structure and flow between the topics (along with analysis of how the topics can/should flow from one to another) is something that's I think is missing (I may be wrong and just haven't looked in the right places). What I'd like is for the project team to consider that end-user education (in particular) is something that could help us attract more users and help them achieve a more comprehensive view of how to use openSUSE more effectively. Things like skills migration from Windows to openSUSE would be something I see as key; one forum user put it as "people learn by making connections to that which they already know"; I see that in my official job role as well - the students who are most successful are the ones who can associate what they're learning with something they already know - even if it's not a direct 1:1 mapping. Thoughts? Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Strategy d: Status Quo, and quantified so
by Jan Engelhardt 08 Jul '10

08 Jul '10

== Statement == We deliver a well-balanced platform that equally appeals to end users, power users, developers and server administrators. (Other fields we currently do?) == Activities == === Will do... === * Do as we always did * Good compromise between actuality and stability * Agreeable release cycle between 8 and 12 months * Support for the 3 most current releases * Continue the naturally growth of openSUSE:Factory by incorporating contributors' submissions * For end users * Deliver both KDE and GNOME desktops (with a focus on KDE. By laws of physics we are required to provide an antipole to the otherwise GNOME-ridden world ;-) * Covering a multitude of areas of interest (publishing:/latex, OOo, graphics:/gimp, inkscape, etc.) * For developers * C, C++, Perl, Python, Java and the usual satellite libraries (boost, libwhatdoIknow, maven, ...) * For power users and sysadmins * Agreeable command line experience (I can quantify that if desired..) * Xen VM * Networking Services (dns,http,etc etc etc) === Try to... === * Deliver a third, more minimalistic desktop environment * Speed it up (doesn't everybody? :-) * minimal system (we're ok I'd say) * blubb. * Do The Right Thing™ rather than just doing what the loudest voice says - i.e. critical analysis towards hyped items === Will... === * not solely focus on a narrow band topic only * not necessarily do something just because Ubuntu does it Readers: Whatever we do currently, add it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openSUSE Strategy Discussion: Base for derivatives
by Pavol Rusnak 07 Jul '10

07 Jul '10

Hello again! As we promised earlier[1] starting today we'll be discussing the second of strategies: Base for derivatives[2]. [1] http://news.opensuse.org/2010/06/17/a-strategy-for- the-opensuse-project-proposals-and-discussions/ [2] http://en.opensuse.org/Documents/Strategy/Derivatives ----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- openSUSE - Base for derivatives ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1.) Statement: We are a diverse active and inviting community delivering the best foundation for Linux derivatives by providing a high quality, long-term supported core distribution, with tools and infrastructure to easily build on top of it. We encourage projects and developers to create additional building blocks and specialized spin-offs and provide a platform to make them visible and appreciated. The center of this strategy is a high quality and long-term supported core distribution surrounded by tools to build derivatives which includes remote system administration. Behind that we will have a marketing team spreading the word about our Project and the derivatives made with it. Additionally, we will provide derivatives for desktops, server usage, software and web development. To be successful we see the collaboration with upstream and other Linux distributions as a key factor in providing quality derivatives. 2.) Key ideas: * reduce the number of packages in Factory - provide smaller, stable, high quality core distro - provide Long Term Support (LTS) for this reduced set - core suitable for servers - available for more platforms (including ARM, PowerPC, etc.) * provide platform for building derivatives around core distro (onion model) - building blocks - software grouped by theme (Build Service - repositories) - infrastructure for building spinoffs (Build Service - kiwi image build / SUSE Studio) - spin-offs promotion ("gallery" for spin-offs with ratings, download links, etc.) * support diversity - openSUSE as a base for MeeGo, OpenWRT and other projects - desktop spin-offs for users (KDE, GNOME, LXDE, Xfce) - specialized spin-offs like Education, Photo edition 3.) Activities: 3.a.) We need to be excellent in the following: * provide stable core packages with LTS (Factory) * openSUSE Build Service * provide tools for remote system administration * process/mechanism to qualify those custom distribution for usage of openSUSE name/trademark * large testing of various OBS repositories combinations 3.b.) We will try to do the following effectively: * provide the openSUSE distro as it is today (no long term support) * provide environment for web development (webserver/database stack) * provide development tools for C/C++, Java, C#, J, Python, Ruby, ... * collaboration with upstream * collaboration with other Linux distros 3.c.) As project, we will not focus on the following anymore: * There are many packages that exist in Factory and we don't know if they are used or needed. We'll have them in major OBS projects only. -- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol RUSNAK SUSE LINUX, s.r.o openSUSE Boosters Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xA6917144 19000 Praha 9 prusnak[at]opensuse.org Czech Republic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openSUSE Strategy Discussion: Mobile and cloud ready distribution
by Pavol Rusnak 06 Jul '10

06 Jul '10

Hi all! As we promised earlier[1] starting today we'll be discussing the third of strategies: Mobile and cloud ready distribution[2]. Please try to add your comments to particular bulletpoints or sentences, so it is easier for us to merge your suggestions into final form. Happy discussing! [1] http://news.opensuse.org/2010/06/17/a-strategy-for- the-opensuse-project-proposals-and-discussions/ [2] http://en.opensuse.org/Documents/Strategy/Mobile ----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- openSUSE - Mobile and cloud ready distribution ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1.) Statement: We are the Linux distribution that embraces a mobile and social world backed by cloud data services delivering a desktop experience best integrated with those platforms. In addition, we deliver a server solution to host the data and the development tools for those platforms and devices. Our target customers are professionals, developers, IT departments, and mobile consumers. 2.) Use cases: Fred wants to sync his bookmarks, addresses, files, application data, etc. between his desktop machines and mobile devices via the cloud in a seamless manner. Next year, his company plans to run their own private cloud server infrastructure instead of using a public service. Fred also wants to easily connect to the most common social network services out-of-the-box when he installs openSUSE. 3.) Background: We have discussed our expectations for the future and we understand the "Google vision" where Google (as well as other companies but Google is the prime example here) hosts all data that then follows mobile users to wherever they are and whatever kind of (mobile) device they have. Our tweak here is that we think some customers do not wish to use the public infrastructure for their data. 4.) Activities: 4.a.) We need to be excellent in the following: * Create connectivity server for private cloud data service * Support client connectivity to cloud services hosted by others, e.g. Google * Support connectivity to our private cloud service * Establish easy client setup of connectivity and social services * Create Tools for remote administration via smart phones of Linux Desktop incl. WebYaST * Ensure remote administration tools are optimized for use with devices (e.g. YaSTroid) * Deliver integrated development tools for mobile platforms, e.g. Android, MeeGo and WebOS SDKs * Collaborate with Android / Meego / WebOS (not Apple as it is a closed system) * Lobby for open standards for mobile data access 4.b.) We will try to do the following effectively: * Deliver a distribution integrating mobile connectivity * Deliver a build service for building distribution and applications * Provide multiple desktop experiences for everyone wishing to use mobile services * Provide SUSE specific packages: YaST, zypper, AutoYaST, ... * Provide the best social service apps out of the box and make sure users easily find them and configure them * Bugfixing * Testing * Feeding back patches to upstream * Collaboration with upstream * Collaboration with other Linux distros 4.c.) As project, we will not focus on the following anymore: * applications that don't integrate with the mobile world -- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol RUSNAK SUSE LINUX, s.r.o openSUSE Boosters Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xA6917144 19000 Praha 9 prusnak[at]opensuse.org Czech Republic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Why I wont use the forums
by Stephan Kleine 06 Jul '10

06 Jul '10

Dear list, after having read all those "why I wont use the forums" posts, to which I certainly contributed my share with my "venomous" post I got fed up with it and am somehow wondering how to improve that since we all should be supposed to pull on the same string. So, can we just cut that right now and here and instead find out some way how to make those forums more attractive for the people who are currently not using them and OTOH making forum users create more productive bug reports since "reporting by proxy" is NO option IMHO? Regarding the problem: I think it has been established by now that those forums are considered some swamp that makes it very hard to find out some interesting topic one would like to get involved in (may it be because one is interested in the topic or one maintains a package that is related to it). Which is why most people apparently simply don't bother with said forums. OTOH you, the forum admins, have been asked quite some times to introduce some subtopics targeting more specific needs. So could you please reconsider your stance and admit that it will be easier to find "interesting" topics one might be inclined to get involved in if one doesn't have to wade through loads of other stuff? Your, the forum admins`, answer was mostly that said subtopics are already covered by their parent ones (e.g. applications for servers and security). OTOH you happily run some "64-bit" subforum which makes no sense IMHO since this nowadays boils down to having to install the necessary 32-bit compat libs for some binary blobs (e.g. skype). So, to make it short: Can you, the forum admins, please agree that introducing some subforums for specific topics makes it much easier to find "interesting" posts for the "contributor" / "dev" so those would be more inclined to get involved and can we please get some list together of "interesting" topics so those get realized? Point simply being adding some subforum doesn't cost a single $ but makes it much easier to find - personally - "interesting" topics so one gets more inclined to get involved. From my personal POV I would be delighted to see: 1. a "security" one for stuff like apparmor, selinux, ssl with certificates, general server hardening and so on 2. a "server" one for stuff like apache, php, samba, XEN, KVM, general virtualization and so on. Please add some topics you (the "currently not using the forums dude") would like to see so you could more easily identify the topics you are interested in so you might be even more inclined to participate in that forums. Last but not least I'm seriously wondering on those "reporting in bugzilla for forum users" discussion. So could you, the forum admins and users, please make it plain clear to your fellow users that: 1. To report something broken there is only ONE place and that is http://bugzilla.novell.com/ 2. If you (the random user) don't like the interface then welcome to the club but until someone writes a new one this wont change. 3. Reporting a bug as a proxy is plain useless since you (the proxy reporter) will never be able to answer any follow up questions. And here comes the most important one: 4. You need NO knowledge to report a bug but are simply supposed to explain as best as you can what you did to produce that bug. Then the devs will simply ask what you did, if it isn't clear, and tell you what information they need to fix it. If you don't know how to provide that info then simply ASK. Every single dev I know is perfectly happy to tell you how to provide the requested information so really all that is required from you is to create a bugreport, do the best you can and then simply be receptive. Ok, that got quite lengthy, sorry for that and thanks for sticking with me. Please keep it productive. regards, Stephan. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Women of openSUSE
by Susanne Graf 01 Jul '10

01 Jul '10

Hi! There are Debian Women, Ubuntu Women and Fedora Women. Where are the openSUSE Women? I'm sure, that there are women who use openSUSE and maybe program on some projects, too. I'm really interested in meeting you and talk about technical things. What about creating a community to bring all of us openSUSE interested women together? If you are a women and use and/or program openSUSE you're welcome to subscribe to the mailinglist. To subscribe to the list just send an empty mail to opensuse-women+subscribe(a)opensuse.org. For more information please check the wiki: http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Women#Women_of_openSUSE. have a lot of fun Susanne (sayana) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] What do LUGs look for?
by Manu Gupta 01 Jul '10

01 Jul '10

Hi All, We all have LUGs in our region at least most of them must be having one I suppose. My question is How do LUGs promote linux all over the world? What all things does the LUGs take under consideration? If LUGs are choosing a distro of your choice, how do LUGs go about it? -- Regards MANU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Reminder: openSUSE Project Meeting Wednesday 16:00 UTC
by Andreas Jaeger 29 Jun '10

29 Jun '10

The next openSUSE Project meeting will take place tomorrow at 16:00 UTC. See all time zones on the Fixed Time World Clock - timeanddate.com/w.... As always, the meeting will be held in IRC on the #opensuse-project channel on Freenode. The current topics for this meeting are: 1. Old Action Items 2. Status Questions 1. Board 2. Distribution 3. Communication / Events 4. Build Service 3. Questions & Answers 1. From Wiki 2. From Channel If you have more simply add them to the meeting page now. http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Project Also, if you have questions for the meeting, but can't attend (we know that the meeting times can't work for everyone) please add them to the agenda as well. We also take live questions, of course. For more on IRC meetings, see: http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/About. As always, we meet in #opensuse-project on Freenode. Fire up your favorite IRC client and head over to #opensuse-project. Not familiar with IRC? A good overview can be found at irchelp.org. For more information on Freenode, see http://freenode.net/. Wondering when meetings are? Check the openSUSE Calendar at http://news.opensuse.org/category/events/event-calendar/ All project meetings and team meetings are listed there. It's also available as iCal. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj(a){novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

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[opensuse-project] Unified KDE theme for YaST for sudoers
by Otso 28 Jun '10

28 Jun '10

Hi, openSUSE installation defaults to creating a sudo user, whose password is used for administration, unless user explicitly wants to create a proper root account with its own password. Thus it makes no sense, that YaST and other KDE tools requiring root password use different theme than the user does. This makes the desktop experience inconsistent and amateurish. I don't think it's technically impossible or even difficult to pull off, since after all, if you sudo vim (for example), it uses your personal settings. Cheers, Otso -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Common troubleshooting during an Install Fest
by Manu Gupta 28 Jun '10

28 Jun '10

Dear All, I am moving this from to the project list from marketing list as Bryen suggested Since a lot of people have done openSUSE install fests over here on the list, what were the most common problems faced during installation as this can prepare anyone for an upcoming install fest. -- Regards MANU Here are the replies which I got on that list. I would like more people to add their views 1. buggy dvd!!! I remember 10.1 (or 0?) demo dvd (official) 2 about 3 where buggy, and made the demo fault. Written dvd are also often faulty :-( jdd 2. HI Manu, I have myself organised the install fest and would like to tell you some of the problems we faced: Firstly If you are planning to use a projector make sure that you configure the projector settings well in advance since it usually causes trouble. Secondly,try to distribute some video tutorials for those willing to install on their desktops back home. Also try to cover more than one linux distros.Make sure you do not get into troubles with OS issues with laptops of some vendors . BTW Good luck and do ask for any other help. 3. My experiences are humble on this field. This is the way I've done it: 1. Manpower > provided by PLUG (Portuguese Linux Users Group). 2. Merchandising > is cool to have, can be a pain if it is in low numbers due to demand. Having at least a token for everyone who shows up is good. 3. Place > depending on your audience targets, this is nice. In my case I've hired a public space with very good conditions, Aveiro's Cultural and Congress Center. Which also offered proper conditions (power plugs, ethernet infra-structure, acceses, car parking, localization, etc). 4. Sponsorship > in my case the greatest sponsor was actually SuSE GmbH (2 crates of merchandise), Sun Microsystems provided around 1K of StarOffice 5.1 CD's, Red Hat Inc provided some stickers. Most of this contacts were made using connections with people which worked for us, except for SuSE which I handled personaly because I was SuSE user. Sun Microsystems and Red Hat were contacts made through people we know on those companies which were our clients. 5. Showcase > if you can get a hardware sponsorship which can lend you some equipment for displaying stuff, this is great. Logistics will probably be your great problem. So be prepared to commit at all levels on logistics. That was the strongest barrier we had to endure. This was a nation wide event by the way, and we had from 400 to 500 visitors during the 2 days of the event, and people from all over the place came. nelson. 4. >From my experience: - Wireless not working (IOW, dont know how to connect to a secured enterprise wireless network) - Fingerprint reader not working - There is no "Refresh" menu on right-click on Desktop (yeah they say that) - Where can I download anti-virus software ? - How can I play DVD (Best solution: Install VLC) - There is no Microsoft Word ? Sankar http://psankar.blogspot.com 5. Excellent initiative to be asking this question. I commend you. My guess is that most of the troubleshooting problems will be related to hardware, with prime examples being video and wireless. But many of these problems are resolvable through various solutions, depending on the specific hardware. It would be a good idea if you could gather up as much as you can and have a cd or USB of these drivers, etc. ready on hand to pop into machines at install fests. Also, I recommend that we use the power of community experience here. While the event is something of a marketing event, the questions you are asking are more technical-oriented. Therefore, you will get the best bang for your buck if you ask the community at large to offer up their experiences, via -project mailing list. Especially since not everyone on marketing teams are technical. Good luck and keep us posted on what you learned! Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Marketing Team lead GNOME-A11y Outreach lead 6. Also, use IRC if you have Internet, to help users with questions, and to show how it works :) (but warn ahead of time people in channel that other watching conversation :) -- Regards Rajko, - Show quoted text - 7. InstallFests are not common in europe anymore since maybe 10years. We all here have good access to the internet here and Linux can be installed much easier as 13-15 years ago. The only event here that make a thing thats nearby are the Chemnitzer Linux-Tage. http://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2008/live/praxis/ They call it Praxis Doctor Tux its a kind of help station for problems. I worked many years there and last I was responsible for this station. So maybe I can give u some advise. *First and important point is set information before installation. Dont force them to use a specific distro because u like this distro. Let them choose self be only a indepentant adviser *tell the guests always what u doing and why, involve them in decissions *there was a point here in that discussion "medias are sometimes not readable" thats mostly not the media mostly is the drive guilty. The lenses are smoothy and have problems to read burned medias. If u have one there exists cleaning sets for that problem. But with original medias ur on the better side, Another solution for that problem and not for that problem only is to use network install from an server in the internal network. Thats my first choice because u avoid not only the reading problem its much faster. *remember after fresh installations there exists always updates. Two possibilitys run a server (can be the same tftp from the net install) or run a proxy so that not all packages have to delivered from a far server in the net. *u see I talk about updates, installation means not to give away a fresh installed system it means give away a system with them ur guest can work. So install multimedia codecs and other stuff he needs to! *problems with exotic hardware. Thats true there are some problems with WLAN drivers, graphic card drivers and in the last years that fingerprint reader stuff, as Sankar said. The problem changes every year so that u can not really prepared for it. The only helpful thing here is to offer a registration with the promise that they would be handeled first. So that u know who comes with what devices and u can do researches before the InstallFest so hope that points are helpful br gnokii -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[Fwd: Re: [opensuse-project] Re: Strategy discussion @ forums]
by DenverD 25 Jun '10

25 Jun '10

mistakenly sent to Cristian, only... note: the "you" in mine should be considered as the collective, not any one individual: -------- Original Message -------- Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 22:29:10 +0200 To: Cristian Morales Vega <cmorve69(a)yahoo.es> Subject: Re: [opensuse-project] Re: Strategy discussion @ forums Cristian Morales Vega wrote: > 2010/6/24 DenverD <DenverD(a)texan.dk>: >> WAIT--most of those are NOT worth reading!! but if we want to grow the >> community and increase the size of the group of potential contributors >> then while not worth _reading_ they ARE worth answering. > > And aren't they being answered? How many of them get unanswered? > Anyway, that's your point? We will not find real problems to fix? We > can just help people that with some luck, we hope, someday will > contribute in some way? > > I was asking this so "everybody can judge by itself if it's worth the > effort". To me is not. Sure, if I have to just select between give an > answer to that user or not... lets give him an answer!! But this is a > resource management problem. I can answer to ten users asking "I > installed mkvtoolnix but I don't know how to start it, it doesn't > appears in the menu" or I can patch the mkvtoolnix package to add a > menu entry and talk with upstream so they apply the patch, helping a > hundred users. > Time is limited. Fixing problems we help lots of users. Answering a > question not worth reading in the forum we help a single user. Forum > users, those that someday perhaps will start contributing, will also > go if the distro is full of bugs. We need a balance, and I don't see > anything indicating the current one is wrong. who asked you or any dev to answer questions? i didn't... most of the questions there can be answered by anyone who has been around a year or two (they are easy and redundant), and they are being answered--usually pretty quickly...and the one needing some higher level of technical ability are usually answered dang quickly also.. your help is NOT needed to answer single user questions (imo) the value to everyone on the ML in visiting the fora is (imo) developing a feeling of how the users are getting hammered, or hammering themselves.. things like the decision to make one-clicks keep the repos enabled (as Jim mentioned)...we have several a day needing nothing much more than slimming down what is enabled and then a little zypper work.. maybe you knew that, maybe you don't care...maybe you think the decision was made, good enough, move on...the point is someone should care that the new guy is setup to *fail*: s/he won't read how to use YaST or Zypper if there is a one-click in sight....and, you can bet they WILL accept the default and soon have a dozen or more repos and trouble.. or things like blank/black screens <http://tinyurl.com/36slr7o> how is a new user supposed to cope with that? how might the hackers figure out a way to detect and fail more 'gracefully'? or just, being seen....'wear' a developer/contributor/member "badge" and be seen walking about among the commoners...i do not mean spend hours every day...by the way i really dislike the web side and highly recommend pointing a newsreader at at forums.opensuse.org port 119 and subscribe to any or all of these: opensuse.org.help.applications o.o.h.applications.multimedia o.o.h.hardware o.o.h.install-boot-login o.o.h.network-internet o.o.h.network-internet.wireless avoid (unless you need a laugh/cry) soapbox, chit-chat, games and i don't know.. 10 minutes every two weeks by each would be a *tremendous* increase in presence and visibility....pat a few on the back (i am NOT talking about patting me on the back, and can promise you my ego doesn't need that)...if you see a problem being discussed that you know is nearing a solution, drop some info on that on the crowd.. or, if you run into (as a venomous poster here noted) "misinformation, ignorance and outright lies" and feel gentlemanly you might set the record straight.. i think it could do a world of good for the "community" if the users actually believed they mattered and the hackers cared about them.. may not make any difference, at all--i know this, walk in and spew some that good old RTFM and i'll wish i never tried to bring the groups closer together! well...i have no idea how to grow a community when the 'leadership' is dead set against talking/listening to users. dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Last Survey
by Sascha 'saigkill' Manns 25 Jun '10

25 Jun '10

Hello Mates, two month ago we started an online survey. Is the Survey now closed? Exists any results? -- Sincerely yours Sascha Manns openSUSE Community & Support Agent openSUSE Marketing Team Blog: http://saigkill.wordpress.com Web: http://www.open-slx.de (openSUSE Box Support German) Web: http://www.open-slx.com (openSUSE Box Support English)

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[Fwd: Re: [opensuse-project] Re: Strategy discussion @ forums]
by DenverD 25 Jun '10

25 Jun '10

Cristian Morales Vega wrote: > I'm not going to ask anybody to use the forums from time to > time just to get users that "actually believed they mattered and the > hackers cared about them". Most of the posts I read complaining about > devs being disconnected from user needs are IMHO users that seem to > live in a reality distortion field. ok, i tired and gave up...un-subed from the ML.. decided i should try again, and i've failed again--you folks are a real piece of work, never seen so many inflated egos in one place before...strange.. so, i'll not again question the way things work here, who is most important or how we might arrive a higher level together....instead, i'll just go back now and live in my really distorted field with things like the following to keep me warm at night: "openSUSE is ... a project which lives from contributions not 'feeding customers'. That's why I previously said we need more contributors, no users, no customers, no leechers and no 'audience'." "Right now I think the openSUSE project should concentrate on growing the contributors so that those then grow users.." "You are either friendly or unfriendly with users." "if you're not part of the group that feels excluded / disadvantaged then you don't see the things that are doing it." "why should anyone care about your feelings since you don't contribute in any way anyways?" dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] openSUSE Strategy Discussion: Community Statement
by Andrew Wafaa 24 Jun '10

24 Jun '10

Whilst we are talking about supporting a wide range of users/contributors, what about a11y? In all honesty I'm not so sure we could suck any more at it even if we tried to suck at it! As I had blogged previously a11y isn't just for those with disabilities but for all users. It can also be used for automating tests etc. In my mind a strategy needs to have a Short (0-12 months), Medium (12-24 months) & Long (>24 months) term goal. Both medium and long term would flex with the times but short term is fixed. As such it would be perfectly feasable to have openSUSE as the most accessible distro as a short term goal. There are some very knowledgable people within the community on the topic of a11y, heck several of them work for Novell. Why don't we get at least one of them across for the conference to educate us? Making sure that all users and contributors find openSUSE the best experience possible is what we have to do, and that means all aspects of the project, regardless of whether it is distro, obs, forums, mailing list, whatever. (Sorry for top posting, it's my phone - honest!) Andy "Alberto Passalacqua" <albert.passalacqua(a)gmail.com> wrote: >2010/6/18 Cornelius Schumacher <cschum(a)suse.de>: > >> Personally I'm not interested in a project which doesn't target a wide range >> of users. But that might be only me. > >Well, we are at least two ;-) > >Best, >-- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org >For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org > -- Andrew Wafaa IRC: FunkyPenguin GPG: 0x3A36312F openSUSE: Get It, Discover It, Create It at http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Opensuse Mailing list collection vs. lkml collection [Was: Members, application and voting]
by Greg Freemyer 23 Jun '10

23 Jun '10

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Per Jessen <per(a)opensuse.org> wrote: > Greg Freemyer wrote: <snip> >> 2) Those lists function as a single collection from a search >> perspective. Thus, if want to find a post from Ted Tso about ext4, I >> can search all of the lists at once. Not run 100+ discrete searches. > > Doesn't google help with that? > > http://www.google.ch/search?q=site%3Aopensuse.org+freemyer Only in the sense that I can then find out which list a relevant conversation is on. But then if I want to see a threaded view of the conversation, I need to fall back to gmane or similar. In general I find the working with opensuse archives very 10+ years ago. Compare that to this search for GregKH's post to the lkml collection: http://markmail.org/search/?q=gregkh You see a list of which lists he's most active in. You see a breakdown by year of how active he was. If you click on one of his messages you get a new view that helps you track down what your looking for: http://markmail.org/search/?q=gregkh#query:gregkh+page:1+mid:gyrtxc2i6u43ya… I have no idea if markmail would add the full opensuse mailing list collection, but if they would it seems like a big step forward. Even better would be if they had a way to filter a search to just the opensuse collection. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Opensuse Mailing list collection vs. lkml collection [Was: Members, application and voting]
by Greg Freemyer 23 Jun '10

23 Jun '10

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 12:10 PM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh(a)medozas.de> wrote: > > On Tuesday 2010-06-22 17:12, Henne Vogelsang wrote: >>> My issue is that: >>> >>> 1) those lists have developed great functionality in the normal post / >>> reply process that does not require subscription. Thus if I am >>> directed to the btrfs list for a question, I can just post and not >>> have to subscribe. >> >>[...] And in general how much sense does it make to post to a >>mailinglist you are not subscribed to? That's like running into the >>room, shouting your question/remark and then running out again >>before anyone can answer/respond to you. > > Your comparison to a room/IRC channel is flawed. Posting to a > non-subscribed list makes _perfect_ sense. Contrary to IRC, the > poster _does_ leave means and identity available by which replies > can be conveyed to him, and his subsequent replies be conveyed > back to the other participants. It's more like a forums.opensuse.org > and only ever looking at your own thread. Henne, I don't know if you know any kernel developers, but if you do, go to lunch with them and get them to talk about how flexible it is to have a set of mailing lists that works the way the lkml ones do. One simple example, let's say that during this email thread I thought GregKH should be added to the conversation, but he's not subscribed to this list. With the lkml model, I simply add him to the CC line and add some introductory text just for him so he has some context. Then he and all other participants continue the conversation by doing a reply all and he is able to participate without even knowing that something that concerned him was being discussed. And without having to waste his time monitoring every mailing list which might have discussions he might need to participate in. The lkml list collection has been functioning this way for well over 5 years so everyone on the kernel team should know it well. (I don't know when the started.) That brings up another example, lets say you wanted ask that team to discuss how the lkml lists work from there perspective. Assuming your not subscribed, you would still just post your new topic, they would all do a reply-all and thus you would stay in the conversation, even though you never subscribed. And when the topic died, you would not have to unsubscribe. >>After all its about >>public discussion. Of course you can expect people to run after you >>(a.k.a. keeping the CC list intact) but that's not really nice either. > > They don't need to run, they just have to use the Reply-All > functionality of their MUA. That is exactly what is expected and required it you participate in the lkml collection of lists. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Alternative strategy proposal: openSUSE - the Linux distribution platform
by Cornelius Schumacher 22 Jun '10

22 Jun '10

After reading the strategy thread I thought it would be best to come up with an alternative strategy proposal, as this better expresses what I would like to see for openSUSE in the future than discussing all the details of the other proposals. It's somehow based on the other proposals, but tries to be not as limited. It's also not meant to introduce any brand new ideas, but more build on top of what already is there in the community. So here you go: = openSUSE, the Linux distribution platform == Goals The goal of openSUSE as a project is to provide a platform for distributing Linux and software running on Linux to a wide range of users. This platform consists of tools for creating software distributions, the openSUSE distribution as base and reference implementation, and the community supporting the tools and the distribution. On top of the platform the openSUSE universe consists of more specific distributions, which make use of openSUSE infrastructure and technology. Examples are SLES, MeeGo, openSUSE Education, KDE and GNOME live systems, and could also be for example developer or cloud oriented distributions and more. So openSUSE provides a way for subteams to address specific user groups and needs. openSUSE also provides means to distribute software independent of the environment of the user to spread Linux based software and make software easily available for use in the openSUSE distribution and systems based on it. The openSUSE distribution acts as a reference distribution, providing a testbed for the used technology, a stabilizing ground for common components, and a real-life use case for applying technology and distributing Linux software. It's targeted at technically interested users, including programmers and system administrators. It has a focus on good user experience and making technology available to end users. It doesn't target users with highly specific technical needs. == Activities === Essentials * Provide stable set of core packages distributions can build on * Broad hardware support * Provide tools for package and distribution building * Provide common building blocks for distribution, e.g. installer, configuration tool, maintenance tools * Provide home for overall community and specific teams, e.g. bug tracker, Wiki, mailing lists, collaboration tools * Create the official openSUSE distribution as reference implementation * Enable, support, and collaborate with specific teams to create their own distributions * Enable and support, and collaborate with upstream developers to build and distribute their software on openSUSE === Good to have * Provide wide variety of packages for further use * Community for user support * Work on standards which make it easier to mix components, e.g. free desktop standards * Collaboration with other distribution platforms === No focus * Directly providing a polished distribution for non-technical end users * Bleeding edge technology -- Cornelius Schumacher <cschum(a)suse.de> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] A simple alternative strategy
by Guido Berhoerster 22 Jun '10

22 Jun '10

As I see it, adopting one of the proposed strategy which all seem to significantly narrow down the scope of the project follow an exclusionary logic possibly alienating current and potential users and contributors which have a different focus in the project. I'd like to propose a very simple alternative, which in contrast to the other proposals aims to include and accommodate: openSUSE should be (remain?) a general-purpose OS. The strategy proposals ("KDE #1", "mobile and cloud", "developers" and "derivatives", "power users") should not be adopted as a general strategy but rather delegated to the respective teams (mobile, KDE, etc.) which are interested in adopting them. The above strategies are not mutually exclusive with some coordination they can be made compatible with each other (e.g. by removing the "will not focus on applications not related to development" clauses). In other words openSUSE can continue to be the preferred KDE distro, a useful base for derivative distributions and appliances, and it can become even more attractive among developers or for mobile usage, all at the same time. Yet adopting a strategy from those mentioned above narrowing down the focus of the project will go at the expense of those contributors and users with different interests. In particular, openSUSE should remain an OS targeting both developers and all kinds of end-users. People like to use what they are familiar with, if it runs satisfactorily on their desktop and it additionally provides the needed tools for other specific purposes they will likely be inclined to use it for these purposes as well. In particular students being exposed to openSUSE during school or uni might promote it (or SLES) later in their workplace (a long term strategy which seems to work well for Microsoft). This recognizes and accommodates the diversity of interests within the project and still aims at delivering a single coherent product. Creating derivative distributions is already a strength due to the Build Service and Studio, following the "base for derivatives" on the other hand poses the risk of fragmentation and a duplication of efforts. The general framework for this is already provided by the Guiding Priciples which I'll cite once again: We want to... [...] ...create a distribution which is stable, easy to use and a complete multi-purpose distribution for users and developers, for desktop and server use, for beginners and experienced users, for everybody. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] becoming a opensuse team member
by Greg Freemyer 22 Jun '10

22 Jun '10

On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Vincent Untz <vuntz(a)opensuse.org> wrote: > Le lundi 21 juin 2010, à 13:57 +0200, DenverD a écrit : >> Guido Berhoerster wrote: >> > * Vincent Untz <vuntz(a)opensuse.org> [2010-06-21 12:28]: >> >> The question is why are all the people you're listing not members yet? >> >> They should probably be! >> > >> > I'm not a member, and apart from not being able to participate in >> > decision-making I haven't seen a need yet to bother with an >> > application process. >> > Actually I think the openness and simplicity of taking part in >> > openSUSE development without having to bother with membership, >> > mandatory mentoring etc. as in other comparable projects is a >> > strength of openSUSE. >> >> same here, i've been contributing in several ways for several years >> and a couple times thought i should "become a member" but when i got >> to to part where i had to try to prove my worth as a contributor to an >> unseen panel of judges, i decided i'd rather just do what i do and let >> those in "the Community" who wanna be in charge of something (like >> deciding who gets into the circle and who can decide the future, etc) >> do that, without me signing up and _asking_ to join the in-crowd.. > > Wow. You seem to have a really negative image of the membership process > :/ How can we improve this? Why is it a burden for you to mention your > contributions when applying? I don't remember this process to be > difficult or awkward when I applied a few years ago. > I became a member a year+ ago specifically because I wanted to be able to create openfate entries. (No longer restricted to members). I haven't recently checked the wording of the page describing becoming a team member, but at the time it seemed to imply members had to earn their stripes (ie. prove themselves) by doing more than your casual enthusiast like myself. (ie. Packagers, bug fixers, etc. seemed to emphasized.) Even though I participate in a lot of opensuse threads thus providing support, file a few bugzillas, etc. and have even updated some wiki pages, I was not at all sure I'd be accepted. Maybe the wording of that section needs to be softened to reflect the actual critieria used to accept members. Or maybe the criteria themselves need to be softened. Greg (team member) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openSUSE Strategy Discussion: Home for developers
by Pavol Rusnak 21 Jun '10

21 Jun '10

Hi all! As we promised earlier[1] starting today we'll be discussing the first of strategies: Home for developers[2]. Please try to add your comments to particular bulletpoints or sentences, so it is easier for us to merge your suggestions into final form. Happy discussing! [1] http://news.opensuse.org/2010/06/17/a-strategy-for- the-opensuse-project-proposals-and-discussions/ [2] http://en.opensuse.org/Documents/Strategy/Development ----8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<--------8<---- openSUSE - Home for developers ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1.) Statement: We deliver the most integrated platform for developers (e.g. web developers, system developers, Qt/GTK developers, Android/MeeGo/WebOS developers, etc.) To be the ideal home for developers we deliver all popular open source IDEs and related tools and the perfect desktops suited for them to make the development efficient. Additionally we deliver a decent server platform to allow direct deployment of web applications and make rapid testing possible. By providing integration with social networks and collaboration tools, we enable developers to work flawlessly in a distributed environments and enable the usage of agile techniques. 2.) Activities: 2.a.) We need to be excellent in the following: * Out-of-box experience for all popular open source IDEs, integration and development of related tools (graphical debugger, etc.) * Provide tools to easily deploy developed software (e.g. server integration, Build Service, etc.) more tightly coupled to tools * Provide infrastructure to distribute software (e.g. Build Service, SUSE Studio) * Provide desktop environments fitting the needs of developers * Cooperation with team projects to make openSUSE their development platform of choice * Deliver the most up-to-date development libraries to make app development rock (also allow to keep multiple versions) * Integrate social networks and collaboration tools * Collaboration with other Linux distros 2.b.) We will try to do the following effectively: * Provide GUI administration tools, including WebYaST * Lobby for open standards * Market openSUSE at events * Continue testing and bugfixing in an efficient way 2.c.) As project, we will not focus on the following anymore: * Applications not related to development (directly or indirectly) -- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol RUSNAK SUSE LINUX, s.r.o openSUSE Boosters Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xA6917144 19000 Praha 9 prusnak[at]opensuse.org Czech Republic -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openSUSE Strategy Discussion: Community Statement
by Andreas Jaeger 21 Jun '10

21 Jun '10

http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Documents/Strategy/Community contains the following statement that we'd like to discuss and enhance as written in the introductory email (http://news.opensuse.org/2010/06/17/a-strategy-for- the-opensuse-project-proposals-and-discussions/), Andreas We are the openSUSE Community - a friendly, welcoming, vibrant, and active community. This includes developers, testers, writers, translators, usability experts, artists, promoters and everybody else who wishes to engage with the project. To grow the openSUSE Community, we will put contributors first and focus on the following activities: * Build a lively and active community * Increase contributor visibility * Attract contributions by empowering our community to influence and shape the Project in all aspects * Make contributing easy by eliminating or greatly reducing bureaucratic obstacles and having great governance * Market the Project This includes the following activities in order to excel in our goals: * Create tools that support community activities * Establish the openSUSE Foundation * Improve visibility through announcements, news, blogs, tweets, etc * Give presentations about the Project * Establish Events: Conference organization * Emphasize the value of communication and recognize cultural diversity within our community * Foster governance discussions * Mentor new contributors * Praise contributors (Publicity, bounties, ...) We will also do the following activities: * Events: Attend shows, set up booths, have openSUSE Community rooms * Raise funds for the Project through the openSUSE Foundation * Helping new users and contributors * Encourage technical discussions (via mailing lists and forums) * Give presentations about the Project * Publications, whitepapers, ... in journals * Reaching multiplicators (journalists, key comm members, ...) * Customer intelligence (Surveys, segmentation, update statistics, ...) Note that we are very well aware that anything we do depends on the willingness of our community to drive it and make it successful. The openSUSE Community Board sees its leadership role in making coherent proposals and driving community decisions -- not in just taking decisions on behalf of the community. Note that openSUSE has evolved from it's initial launch with little participation to being now a real open source project. It has many sponsors including Novell as main sponsor. The sponsors are part of the Project and will support it in various ways but not control the project. openSUSE being an open source project means that everybody in the community can contribute equally to it in all aspects of the project and should not depend on any of the sponsors doing everything. We'd like to cite as well from the openSUSE Guiding Principles: We value respect for other persons and their contributions, for other opinions and beliefs. We listen to arguments and address problems in a constructive and open way. We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate social discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offense. -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj(a){novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

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[opensuse-project] get message
by DenverD 20 Jun '10

20 Jun '10

suse-project+get-AANLkTik7orY8jH5h1TfDGiZ_kl2mCoiYZqa_28J_ii7a(a)opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] What's wrong with independence?
by Per Jessen 19 Jun '10

19 Jun '10

I couldn't find a suitable place to add this in the running thread, so I'm starting this one - whilst there seems to be lots of arguments against TrifleMeNots main arguments (possible sale, the MS deal etc), as far as I can tell, no-one has actually argued against the independence in itself. It seems to me that TrifleMeNot has a point - IF the current infrastructure DID suddenly go away, we would have a very serious issue. Whether or not that is a real risk or not, being more independent wouldn't be that bad, would it? Seeking infrastructure contributions could even go quite well with a strategy of attracting more developers and contributors (if that is the strategy). /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openSUSE Strategy Discussion - Introduction
by Andreas Jaeger 17 Jun '10

17 Jun '10

As announced previously, the openSUSE Board and its Strategy Team have worked on three strategic proposals to define the direction of openSUSE’s future, as a Project, Community and distribution. Each strategy proposal includes the same community statement. We will therefore discuss the community statement and the three strategies separately. Focused Discussion To have a focused discussion, we like to handle the discussion as follows on both opensuse-project mailing list and the openSUSE forums: 1. Present today all three strategy proposals and the community statement, they are available on the wiki - http://en.opensuse.org/Documents/Strategy 2. We will start discussing the community statement now in its own thread. 3. Monday, June, 21st: We start a new thread to discuss the strategy proposal “openSUSE – Home for developers“. 4. Thursday, June, 24th: We start a new thread to discuss the strategy proposal “openSUSE – Base for derivatives“. 5. Tuesday, June, 29th: We start a new thread to discuss the strategy proposal “openSUSE – Mobile and cloud ready distribution“. What do we want to achieve with these discussions? * Refine the proposals, e.g. remove or add activities * Discuss what needs to be done for each strategy proposal * Figure out which strategy proposal is best, so pros and cons of each ones. Note that each statement contains three lists of activities describing current activities the openSUSE Project does and possible future activities (or tasks). The first list (“We need to be excellent in the following”) describes the items that we want to do really excellent and better than everybody else. The second list (“We will try to do the following effectively”) are needed to do but we don’t need to strive for excellence, just for effectiveness. The third list (“We will not focus on the following anymore”) are activities we will not do at all as part of the project but rather rely on other FOSS projects. In the end, we’d like to have a vote by the openSUSE members on which strategy to choose. Pavol Rusnak and Andreas Jaeger will consolidate comments and proposal changes for these in the openSUSE wiki. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj(a){novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

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Re: [opensuse-project] openSUSE Strategy Discussion: another proposal
by Marcus Moeller 17 Jun '10

17 Jun '10

Hi all. ... > "Welcome to the Revolution > SUSE needs to reclaim the desktop based on simple things such as having a > great and daring color palette for the desktop. If you notice, the opensuse > default wallpaper is green, and yet the highlighted items on the file > manager is blue, as well as the oxygen style icons. Suse, loses its branding > fairly quickly once KDE 4 is used. I guess this is not directly related to this thread but I just want to leave a short comment. The goal is to 'extend' oxygen with openSUSE gears. I personally like to keep as most upstream defaults as possible but add brands where it makes sense (and that's how it's done atm). If some parts could be improved that are not directly related to the SUSE brand, do it upstream. That's how open source works. And if you want to promote KDE, the best way so to promote it 'as is'. Best Regards Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

1 0

[opensuse-project] software.opensuse.org: package search
by Graham Anderson 14 Jun '10

14 Jun '10

Package search is currently borked for all openSUSE choices using the distro selection drop down menu with the helpful error: Error Error Server said: However the response code is 404 and not 500 *shrug* -- “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.” - Christopher Hitchens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] independence
by Trifle Menot 11 Jun '10

11 Jun '10

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 10:05:40 +0200, Andreas Jaeger <aj(a)novell.com> wrote: >openSUSE has evolved from SUSE Linux which was a distribution developed behind >the firewall to a project with open mailing lists, bugzilla and wiki now to a >real open source project. It's not anymore only Novell/SUSE employees that >can do things - everybody in the community can get involved. That includes >filing bug reports - like Richard does -, software translation, writing >documentation, marketing the project and development. >There might need to be some attitude adjustement for Novell developers for >many of whom openSUSE is not the first priority and I'm happy to help with >that when it gets pointed out to me. The question remains how to grow the >openSUSE contributor community so that Richard doesn't need to learn C++ to >get a bug fixed ;) > >If you like to continue this thread, please followup on the opensuse-project >mailing list with a different subject I hear rumors Novell is for sale. Will opensuse get its own bugzilla independent from Novell? And what else needs to be done for opensuse to gain full independence? -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] How to improve the openSUSE experience [Was: independence]
by Anshul Jain 10 Jun '10

10 Jun '10

Edit: I'm cross-posting my comments as I feel that this deserves a thread of its own, independent from the originating thread which was on another issue... Couple of my observations on how we as a community can make openSUSE better:- (Disclaimer: This is for the normal user and not the expert) 1. Simplify zypper: The whole upgrading procedure where patches and packages are treated separately have to be streamlined. It is a tad confusing for the normal user. Mandriva provides a very elegant and neat way to upgrade the system through their mdkonline applet. Something we should look at as well 2. Package Management through YaST: The Qt version rocks, but the GNOME version simply is sucks. 3. Better bootsplash experience by using Plymouth 4. Simplify the repository structure. There are too many confusing ones, Factory, STABLE, UNSTABLE etc...the KDE guys are working on simplifying it...I guess. GNOME needs simplification. Many mistake Ubuntu to have the best user experience distro....but that tag actually belongs to Mandriva, which still has managed to keep itself alive (I don't know how longer though). Some of their tools are very good like msec (Mandriva Security), menu layout for GNOME and KDE which is unique and very consistent. We could take some cues from there and add the requisite polish on top of it. I'm sure some of these suggestions will be flamed...but I'd appreciate if this not be taken as criticism, but as suggestions to greater improve the distro that we all like. -Anshul -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Marketing
by Trifle Menot 10 Jun '10

10 Jun '10

"openSUSE" Drop the camel case, it's a pain to type over and over. In a modern search engine world, the keyword value of a name is more important than its capitalization. Germans seem to be fond of camel case (SuSE), but most of the world does not speak German. "opensuse" is better. No caps needed. Not even one. -- Web mail, POP3, and SMTP http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Re: Re: [opensuse-gnome] How to improve the openSUSE experience [Was: independence]
by Anshul Jain 10 Jun '10

10 Jun '10

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 10:35 PM, Christian Jäger <christian.jaeger(a)rub.de> wrote: > > > > > -- Gesendet von meinem Palm Pixi > ________________________________ > Anshul Jain <anshulajain(a)gmail.com> schrieb am 10.06.2010 18:50: > > >>> 2. Package Management through YaST: The Qt version rocks, but the >>> GNOME version simply is sucks. > > And please try to get up to date about what's going on in the project before > demanding things that are already in the works. Intensive conceptual work > and development went into the new and improved version of the GNOME package > manager that is in factory. Have you even tried it? > > BTW, I was involved in the design of the 'old' package manager that you > dislike so much; my motivation was that I loathe the utterly human-unusable > QT-package-manager... > > Chris > > If the existing YaST package manager module has undergone a change (and I cannot run Factory as I have only so much space on my laptop), then more power to you. Regarding whats wrong with the GTK interface (in 11.2) is the fact that you need to press two buttons both of which are not close by to select a package for install. First you need to select the package, the go to the lower right corner to select to install. I believe that a simple checkbox beside the package to be installed would be the right way. -Anshul -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

1 0

Re: [opensuse-project] independence
by Dominique Leuenberger 09 Jun '10

09 Jun '10

>>> Per Jessen <per(a)computer.org> 06/09/10 10:28 PM >>> > >Certainly. He also paid USD20million for a ride on the Soyuz - just for >the experience. You have to inform yourself better. Which does not dis-prove the point: he did not do it for 'nothing', he did it, as you write yourself, for the experience. Being rich allows you to enjoy such craziness... 'we' normal people go to a normal amusement park. Rather boring, Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] independence
by Dominique Leuenberger 09 Jun '10

09 Jun '10

>>> Per Jessen <per(a)computer.org> 06/09/10 8:20 PM >>> >Dominique Leuenberger wrote: > >> Per, >> >> There would be plenty of things you can do on Bugzilla, which would >> not even require coding, or anything. Like: confirm bugs, look if you >> have all the information in a bug to be able to reproduce it. > >Hi Dominique > >that's what I do for the stuff I report, and when I come across bugs I >also recognize. If I can reproduce, I always provide the info. Are >you also talking about others peoples bugs here? Per, Yes, put your feet one step higher. A lot of reporters are 'shoot and forget', but yet after the release you read in blogs that even though it was reported it did not get fixed. Sure, unfair, but reality. Having YOUR help (addressing your directly, but everybody else in the community) in bug screening, info providing, bug confirming, is a rather simple start in getting involved (and no: we should not end up like any random launchpad entry with 100+ "me too" statements... that's ridiculous).. Especially if after a later release you see a bug disappeared: simply ask back: "I tried it with newer version of package XY and can't reproduce this error; can you confirm whether this is solved or still an issue?" Even if the bug is not solved (for the reporter, and you could not reproduce due to whatever difference) is actually not a problem: the reporter feels that somebody cares for his report. Which is an important fact for reporters to see. Other cases, it can be reproduced only with specific hardware (I for example, as a community user, non-novell staff) maintain (almost fully in this cycle) Compiz. A big bunch of the bugs is weird and the latest ones are just not seen on my machine. Yet we could track it down to some issues in intel drivers. So you see: there is more you can help in bugzilla than only looking at your bugs. For example: sign up to opensuse-bugs@ and be ready to read a lot of mails (kidding. don't read all of them). I for myself screen the NEW ones, either for just 'solving' them if I can, marking them as DUP as I remember having seen it somewhere or even just to know what 'issues' others are seeing, in case I run into something similar. In this sense: let's get it going (and this is only bugzilla: many other aspects are certainly as 'simple' to get started and involved... it just requires the motivation). Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] An update about the Strategy Proposals
by Bryen M. Yunashko 09 Jun '10

09 Jun '10

We wanted to give you an update regarding the status of our Strategy Team's release of strategy proposals for public discussion. Truth is, despite our best intentions to release on this date, we failed to realize each of our personal schedules leading up to this date. For many of us on the team, we had a number of commitments and didn't realize that most of us had scheduling conflicts. We are 90% done completing the wording of our proposals. While we could have rushed to finish everything by today, it was agreed that quality of the proposals was more important than rushing to meet a deadline. As such, we have agreed to postpone the release for one additional week until everyone is able to return to the table and finalize our proposals. The new release date for the openSUSE Strategy Proposals discussion will now be on June 17th. We thank you for your patience and understanding and look forward to a lively discussion next week once the proposals are published. Sincerely, Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] independence
by Alberto Passalacqua 08 Jun '10

08 Jun '10

2010/6/8 Trifle Menot <triflemenot(a)beewyz.com>: > On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 15:09:06 -0500, Alberto Passalacqua > <albert.passalacqua(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >>2010/6/8 Trifle Menot <triflemenot(a)beewyz.com>: >>We need to listen to opinions only if there is actual interest in >>helping. You stated you won't help, conditioning your help on >>something that is not going to happen. I miss the constructive part of >>the criticism, and I agree with AJ you're just trolling. > > Some people think a troll is anybody who says anything they don't like. > There may be a clinical term for that. Well, I've been around since the beginning of the openSUSE project, and we had quite animated discussions, we disagreed many times, others we found a way to do things, others we did not. Surely you cannot say in this community others opinion is not listened, and you cannot say they try to mute you. Of course there are limitations to what can be done, but that's just the reality of things. As many told you, independence is something important for the openSUSE community too. Independence however does not mean excluding Novell, but simply not depending on them as much as now, if possible. However, you already said more than once you won't be part of the effort to achieve this goal, so the discussion stops making sense. A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] What's wrong with independence?
by Alexis "Agemen" 08 Jun '10

08 Jun '10

> independence to mean with or without Novell's partnership. I consider > Novell's partnership to be vital. I don't think it coul be rational to think another way. Even if the community achieve independence, I really hope we will have the chance to count novell in the community. Because, contrary to most of these people who don't imply enough in projects (and unfornately i'm one of those, sorry... I try to help my way, though :-) ), Novell has resources it can allocate to the openSUSE project. Insuch a scheme, Novell becomes a contributor. And I think it would be a very profitable situation. Greetings, Agemen. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Distributing a distribution based on openSUSE 11.2 and created with SUSE Studio
by Alberto Passalacqua 08 Jun '10

08 Jun '10

Dear All, I would like to create a live distribution (CD and USB) based on openSUSE 11.2 with SUSE Studio, and then redistribute it. The basic idea is to provide openSUSE 11.2 with the addition of a few open source packages used in Computational Fluid Dynamics or, more generally, in scientific environments. In particular, the distribution will contain, initially: - OpenFOAM (www.openfoam.com) - Salomé ( http://www.salome-platform.org/ ) - enGrid ( http://www.salome-platform.org/ ) - wxMaxima ( http://wxmaxima.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page ) - Grace ( http://plasma-gate.weizmann.ac.il/Grace/ ) The idea is to provide users of these software an easy way to access to it with openSUSE. My questions are about the redistribution. According to the guidelines I'm supposed to remove all openSUSE branding, but it is not clear to me how I should proceed on SUSE Studio to do so. Additionally, does this mean that I cannot use the "openSUSE" KDE Menu (meaning with the Geeko icon? And I have to remove the window decorations with the chameleon too, going back to a basic KDE look? Thanks for any help you'll provide. Best regards, Alberto -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Blogging and visibility
by Javier Llorente 05 Jun '10

05 Jun '10

Hello listmates, Some people already blog about their work on openSUSE. However, others prefer to be silent about their work. So in that case, I suggest having a member of the same team blogging about that person's work on his/her personal blog or on an openSUSE/Team blog and then request to have it aggregated on the appropriate planets. The idea behind this is giving the openSUSE/Team (replace team with KDE, GNOME, etc) more visibility. Greetings, -- Javier Llorente

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[opensuse-project] Strategy Discussion
by Marcus Moeller 02 Jun '10

02 Jun '10

Hi all. I have noticed the Strategy Discussion on the news: http://news.opensuse.org/2010/05/20/opensuse-strategy-meeting/ and would like to share some ideas. As I was off for quite a while (helping out on Fedora/CentOS as well, e.g. organizing this years FUDCon EMEA) I want to point those who don't remember me to my personal page on the wiki, first: http://en.opensuse.org/User:MarcusMoeller But now back to the topic. The SWOT doc already contains some useful information, but first question I would like to ask is what are you heading for? Imho there are two major points: the product itself and the community around it. I have picked up some imported points from the SWOT and commented below: W: Novell is not seen - like Red Hat - as Open Source friend `-> this is definitely true. Maybe Novell could act as Sponsor for more oS events. But first of all, Novell should communicate their aims clearly (besides 'We support Linux, as long we are making money from it', which is what a large part of the community thinks). Besides that, recently announced Novell products like 'ZENworks Application Virtualization' are only available for Windows and there are no clear statements if there will be a Linux version available, ever (which Red Hat clearly communicated to their community/customers with their latest virtualization product RHEV, where all components will be available for Linux, too.) S: decent .net support with mono (?) `-> this is only visible for a real small part of the community. Most of them does not really accept the joint-venture with M$ (which has not been communicated very well in the past) and see not benefits in Mono. We have to point out the real advantages of interoperability, here. Maybe some good example (maybe even commercial) .NET apps that work on Windows as well as on Linux would help. W: Bad QA `-> I once brought up the idea of an open QA group, where every interested contributor could take part. Afterwards it has been announced, but with limited slots (afair 30 ppl) Why that? If ppl want to contribute, please let them! Maybe: http://en.opensuse.org/Testing_Team has to be re-introduced, either in the news or in weekly newsletter. (which would be in general a good idea, to introduce team and is how we handle it at CentOS) W: lots of cool features are not documented, thus not used or integrated `-> At Fedora, the artwork team recently introduced the one page release notes, which contains the highlights of the newly released distribution. I would suggest to create one for oS, too (we need a good designer and one who has some Scribus knowledge for that, maybe gnokii or jimmac could help out there.) T: Distribution becomes a commodity and all distributions become more or less equal `-> yeah, it would be nice to only have one distro in the future, but I guess that won't happen :) S: no appstore `-> Gamestore could be taken as base. Pavol already did some nice work on that. W: factory not very usable `-> I would suggest to release less, but better tested milestones and RCs W: no openSUSE community manager even when there is an openSUSE community manager `-> I think that's not fair for zonker. He had some good ideas and spent a lot of effort in different areas. Maybe he was just not that known/visible outside the openSUSE community (and maybe even inside). I would also suggest to remove spotlight.os.org, lizards.os.org and only use the planet and the news. Besides that news should be also announced on social networks like identi.ca and linux.com. I spent some effort on that, but was quite alone, till now. (Besides that, if you like my ideas, you could try to hire me, but only part-wise as I like my main job :)) W: no organized (language-)local communities, nothing that connects them to the openSUSE.org project; Ambassadors not functional `-> the ambassadors project started quite chaotic. The main complaints where missing swag and support from Novell. But the groundwork has been done now and this is where the plants will grow. W: not enough presence on universities (but that applies for FOSS in general ...) `-> we are already doing oS install fests twice a year (on new students laptops) here at the ETH where usually about 40 ppl attend. Maybe we could just communicate it better, to motivate others to do the same. (Btw. asked for swag this year, but did not even get a reply since zonker is gone). O: alot of control ceded to the community in the past year and just need to be taken `-> this needs to be described clearly. Which are the areas where ppl can contribute? E.g. package maintaining is very unstructured. first of all there has to be a mentor process, clear package guidelines, followed by a review process. Every approved packager should be able to do package reviews, afterwards, despises which 'package group' he/she is packaging for. Mentoring is necessary for the Ambassadors project as well. T: next gen is not interested in low-level stuff such as OSes any more, so we'll get an old community ... `-> Maybe not an OS community but at least a Ruby one :) S: boosters team `-> clearly communicate what they are doing or hide it completely from the public. What's happening now is quite worse. (e.g. website updates not announced, will the wiki content be moved over via script or manually, as saigkill already started to move the weekly news manually, how is wiki i18n handled in the future). All that could be avoided with communication. If necessary, one needs to be hired blogging about what boosters are doing, regularly. A FAQ for the website renewal would also help. So nough said for today (which is only a minimal subset of my ideas :)) Best Regards Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] Blogging and visibility
by Shayon Mukherjee 02 Jun '10

02 Jun '10

On 06/02/2010 04:15 PM, Javier Llorente wrote: > On Miércoles, 2 de Junio de 2010 08:22:25 usted escribió: > >> On 06/01/2010 10:46 PM, Javier Llorente wrote: >> >>> Hello listmates, >>> >>> Some people already blog about their work on openSUSE. However, >>> > others > Ohk ! >>> prefer to be silent about their work. So in that case, I suggest having a >>> member of the same team blogging about that person's work on his/her >>> personal blog or on an openSUSE/Team blog and then request to have it >>> aggregated on the appropriate planets. The idea behind this is giving the >>> openSUSE/Team (replace team with KDE, GNOME, etc) more visibility. >>> >> Hello, >> >> Well thats sounds good.But I would like to present this thing in a >> different manner .Say - Not one person blogs about the other person's >> blog (of the same team) and make it available on the appropriate >> planet.As there are two things which I feel should be noticed and taken >> care of >> >> 1) Its not a good idea to have too many planets.Also how would it look >> if there are Wiki Planet,Booster Planet,Marketing Planet and so on (no >> offense) :-) .But Yes KDE and GNOME are okay . So instead of this - one >> place is fine that is planet.o.o . That said personal and official blogs >> to be aggregated there (which is being done now, but needs more, right?) . >> > I didn't say anything about creating multiple planets ;-) > Sorry , my bad ( I read wrong then) :-) > > >> 2) It would be good if one person blogs for the entire team (instead of >> a single person). This way every team will be able to publish its work >> report and if there is something in specific of an individual to be >> posted, then it can be done accordingly. >> > That's another possibility. > Yeah ! > > >> So, I hope by this way Javier's goal of giving openSUSE Team more >> visibility will be a success . >> (But thats what I feel, I am open for comments and feedback) ;) . >> >> > Thanks for your feedback! > You are welcome. > Cheers, > -- Regards SJ (Shayon) openSUSE Member http://en.opensuse.org/User:wwarlock http://shayonj.wordpress.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] openSUSE Strategy Meeting - wrap up
by Bryen Yunashko 01 Jun '10

01 Jun '10

As in michl's post announced a the openSUSE Board and some other community members met the past weekend in Nürnberg to have a comprehensive 2.5 days face to face meeting . The meeting was attended by Bryen Yunashko, Andreas Jaeger, Jan Weber, Pascal Bleser, Michael Loeffler and Pavol Rusnak (Hendrik Vogelsang and Rupert Horsttkötter were unfortunately unable to join) and lead and facilitated by Kurt Garloff.We'd like to tell you what we've done, what the outcome is and what the next steps should look alike. We had tons of very fruitful discussions and are much clearer about the strengths of openSUSE and how to create a strategy around those. Beside of the usual meeting things (introduction, ground rules, goals of the meeting) we wrapped up the stuff we did over the last months during our weekly IRC meetings. So we concentrated on our users, the strength and weakness openSUSE has, the competition we face and our expectations for future changes in the way we use computers. When building a strategy, you acknowledge that you can't be the best everywhere, you can't be everything to everybody, if you want to be successful, so you need to choose your focus - the already existing strength might be a good start to focus on. Therefor we went through the SWOT analysis and summarized the the strengths we do have: * openSUSE distro works out of the box, comes with good hardware support and is known for good quality (stable and usable but not outdated) * openSUSE distro has areas in which we stand out such as YaST, zypper, tool chain etc. * openSUSE offers an ecosystem of tools around the distro such as openSUSE Build Service, openFATE, Bugzialla, Hermes etc. * we have and attract a technical savvy audience * high market share in Central Europe * Stable funding by Novell * Boosters team with their mantra: Grow community by enabling community * We're the only distribution out there supporting multiple desktops out of the box * Linux is a growing market To go down the path of a strategy we brain stormed competitive advantages which are things you can do better then your competition or things making you unique. After the brain storming we had around 40 single competitive advantages which we then grouped to clusters to find a focus. We found 6 clusters and a number of competitive advantages we couldn't put into one cluster or which had relations to more then one cluster. We then tried to name them and create strategy statement around them. A strategy is a sentence or two describing what you want to achieve by excelling at what to serve whom. We can tell you that's a tough task and we had a long discussion if such a statement isn't too narrow for the openSUSE project. As the strategy statement only highlights the competitive advantages (and some of the most important activities directly connected to them), it is not a good description of all the things we do in such a broad project and with such a broad community. We thus decided not to use such narrow statements as the primary description of our proposed future strategy, but to come up with more descriptive and elaborate proposals. Where did we end up? We ended up having 3 possible strategies which should be worked out to our community in smaller groups during this week and be published on June 8 for further discussion. The strategies are currently in a very raw format but we'd like to share the headlines already with you: * openSUSE the home for developers (distro, tools, apps) * openSUSE the base for derivatives of any kind (eg. openSUSE Education, openSUSE XYZ) * openSUSE for the mobile world (be the glue between mobile services (clouds) and mobile consumers) After we've published the proposals we'd like to have this discussion open for 30 days, use the feedback to enhance or possibly change the proposals s and then having a vote by openSUSE members which strategy is the right one to go with. For that the openSUSE Board will define a pass criteria so we have a clear winner. That's it for today. We had an exhausting weekend but the outcome is pretty good and more stuff, way more detail will be there soon to define together the path openSUSE should take in the future. Please stay tuned to June 8 when we will present our proposals to the community and open up for 30 days of public discussion. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help(a)opensuse.org

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