On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 09:59:26 +0200, jdd wrote:

Le 26/06/2010 05:10, Jim Henderson a écrit :

...

Perhaps what we could do as an alternative is encourage users to file their own bugs, but have a formal dispute resolution process in the event the reporter and the developer come to an impasse or otherwise aren't able to reconcile the way forward. Someone could mediate the dispute so - if at all possible - a mutually acceptable solution could be found.

Is that something you'd see as a good alternative?

absolutely. We have to teach the user how to use bugzilla and help him do so.

The more I think about it, the more I like this approach better. :-)

But it's wrong to say bugzilla is the only way to report a bug. A bug should most of the time be first reported on the mailing list or the forum.. Many "bugs" are simply misunderstanding of the way an app works or so frequent any power user already know it and finally it's good for anybody to know it and anybody don't read bugzilla :-))

I personally like to ask the community (regardless of which project it is) if an issue is known, if others have run into it, and if others have found workarounds - for this very reason. Of course, I also search for the bug, but sometimes it's hard to find the right phrase or keyword to put in in order to find older versions of the bug. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 12:42:12 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Sure, let's discuss the options. If we can come up with a better structure than what we currently have, I believe that would be seen universally as a good thing. We may not agree on the final breakdown, but if we can make it easier for potential repliers to find topics of interest and make it easier for users to self-classify their issues by picking the right forum, that should make everyone's job easier.

To me, list user, the number of forums (I try to read them sometimes, via nntp only) and their names is disconcerting. I can't relate them to the mail list names, I don't know which to read.

We try to move threads into the appropriate forum when they're misposed; that does create issues for the NNTP gateway, but for new threads, we do try to take care of this. If someone finds a thread in the wrong place¸ it can be reported with a suggestion as to where it should be located instead. If it's been around for a while, we generally don't move it, but if it's a new thread, we do try to ensure they're moved to the right forum. I personally prefer to redirect the user rather than do the move for them - that way the user learns *and* has to take extra steps (which to me means they will try harder the next time they post so they don't have to do *more* work).

For example, there is "opensuse.org.help.prerelease-beta". Is that equivalent to opensuse-factory? If so, why not have it named "...factory"?

They are roughly equivalent; I don't honestly know why 'factory' wasn't used, I *think* because to the average end user, 'factory' doesn't have the same connotation as it does to those who have been around the project longer.

Or "opensuse.org.help.install-boot-login". I see threads like "Software update apparently replaced Firefox 3.6.4 with 3.5.9", "bundle-lang-gnome 2233 update fails", "Graphics Card Driver for GMA HD Please". I fail to see the relation to the group name... :-? Boot or login problems? I don't really know what that group is for from reading the title.

Looks like a few threads that should've been moved that weren't. It happens; in general, it shouldn't, but there will always be people who post to the wrong place. We've tried very hard to keep people from posting support questions to the "Forums Feedback" section, by labeling the support sections as "Get Help Here" and moving those feedback forums to the bottom of the list (so they have to go past the "Get Help Here" group of forums and we still get people asking support questions there.

Then, there is, for example, opensuse.org.news.security-announcements. I'm reading via news interface, often off-line. But all posts I try, instead of containing the security information, contains the link to the info somewhere else... thus, useless to me. The equivalent mail list does contain all the info "inside".

opensuse.org.news.tech-news has a similar problem.

That particular group is fed from an RSS feed - that's why the information is linked rather than posted; we post just what's in the RSS feed information.

Then, a post or a thread I understand can be moved from a group to another. This is very disconcerting via nntp.

Yes - the gateway doesn't handle moves very gracefully. As I mentioned in a post to Rajko on (I think) Friday, the NNTP gateway imposes some limitations; we have one guy who has done some development work on it and has improved it significantly, but he hasn't had the time (he's a volunteer) to make any additional enhancements recently.

Perhaps all this seems silly to a person used to forums, but then, maybe, they help keep some of us listers away from the forums.

No, those are perfectly valid issues to raise. The question becomes how to address them, or how to mitigate them.

How about a guide for mail list users attempting to participate in the forums? Maybe it exists already?

I haven't seen a guide like this myself - what do you think would be useful topics to include in such a guide?

...

Perhaps what we could do as an alternative is encourage users to file their own bugs, but have a formal dispute resolution process in the event the reporter and the developer come to an impasse or otherwise aren't able to reconcile the way forward. Someone could mediate the dispute so - if at all possible - a mutually acceptable solution could be found.

Absolutely :-)

The more I think about this, the more I like this idea. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:57:35 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I personally prefer to redirect the user rather than do the move for them - that way the user learns *and* has to take extra steps (which to me means they will try harder the next time they post so they don't have to do *more* work).

:-)

I would have no idea on how to move a thread using NNTP; I would have to repost.

Indeed, that's all one can do in NNTP - even in INN, making the necessary changes in the database would be difficult, and doing so would wreak havoc on people's high message pointers in their readers.

Perhaps what is needed is a read-only nntp group with quick help tips such as what is appropriate on each forum/group, how to post, etc. I think I saw some tips (I'm talking out of year-old memories) on the web interface, but I don't see them on NNTP.

We try to make the names pretty self-descriptive; many newsreaders can read a description field (it's optional in the RFC as I recall) that gives a text description of the group. I don't know if the server we use can present that, but I think it can.

Ah... I discovered another problem. My problem, I mean. I was just checking the "howto" group, to see if what I said above is already there. At the moment I'm off-line on my laptop, but earlier I made thunderbird to download contents, limited to 60 days old messages... meaning that the howto group is almost empty. I have to define individual settings for some groups

Yes, most people's message lists are limited by the client rather than the server; we are set to expire old articles when the spool fills up, but we're nowhere near filling the spool up from what I have been told.

I understand. It happens in mail lists, so it will happen on forums, which are perhaps more fragmented. But I think that accessing via nntp those labels or tips are missing.

I think most of our misposted threads actually originate from the web interface; our NNTP users seem to be a lot more saavy when it comes to selecting a group. You can tell a web-initiated post in an NNTP client by looking at the signature block - if it includes a link to the forum on the web interface, that's where it came from. You'll also note the user agent header shows that it came through the vBulletin USENET gateway (I think that's the string, it's pretty clear). The NNTP-posting-host header will also show the IP address for forums.novell.com.

...

That particular group is fed from an RSS feed - that's why the information is linked rather than posted; we post just what's in the RSS feed information.

Perhaps the announcements should be gated from the mail list posts.

That may be an option. In talking with Kim (the technical admin), he tells me that the ML gateway uses a single e-mail address, so I'm wondering how the original posting information is preserved. We're probably going to set up a test with one of the test MLs to see more how it works, once we've got our vBulletin upgrade completed.

...

I haven't seen a guide like this myself - what do you think would be useful topics to include in such a guide?

Dunno - I'm an absolute novice on forums. I've never posted there, as far as I recall. And via nntp, not yet. When I have spare time I'm off-line, which means that, even if I know the answer for something, it will reach very late.

The place I'd have people start is with the forums FAQ - that answers a lot of questions already and would provide a good foundation to start from. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

I think most of our misposted threads actually originate from the web interface; our NNTP users seem to be a lot more saavy when it comes to selecting a group.

I think it's a lot easier to pick the right group when you've only got 9-10 lines of text, each the name of a forum.

you should have heard the cries and screams when the forum front page (forums.opensuse.org) was redesigned a few months back to make it more like your 'easy'.. the typical forum user wants the jumble of info as it is today.. but still, with all the words needed to funnel folks to the right place, they won't read it and STILL to post in the wrong forum.. it is frustrating for folks who used to get their connected-fix by BBS....i don't know what else to do but ignore their need for bells, winky-blinky and gimicks by using nntp.. the fact is (imHo) the typical new Linux trier/user today is a non-techo, non-reading, impatient _child_ *or* an older and little wiser Redmond Ship Jumper who is certain Linux _should_ work exactly like what s/he is running away from.. i think most of both groups would be happy to accept all the malware they used to have to duck *if* they didn't have to ever read a manual (_and_ could buy, or steal, a half@ssed AV program as worthless and cycle wasting as what they are used to).. my point: if devs/contributors/voters think the universe of potential new users are just like you, and design for yourself, i guess you are gonna miss the largest majority of those out shopping/looking for a new operating system home today.. [note: it is NOT my desire to see openSUSE morph into UbuntuTwo, nor into dis-use....somewhere in between is were we are today, and should remain] ymmv DenverD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 09:26:39 +0200, DenverD wrote:

...

I think it's a lot easier to pick the right group when you've only got 9-10 lines of text, each the name of a forum.

you should have heard the cries and screams when the forum front page (forums.opensuse.org) was redesigned a few months back to make it more like your 'easy'..

the typical forum user wants the jumble of info as it is today..

I don't know that the anecdotal evidence we have from the discussions that took place when we started tweaking the layout is the 'typical' user. It's always dangerous to assume that the 'loudest' complainers are the 'typical' user and then to make decisions after making that assumption. There were a few people who were quite loud about it; there were several then who were less loud about it, but said that they liked it or suggested minor tweaks to it. The vast majority didn't participate in the discussion, which could be for a variety of reasons. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

[sent later]

On 2010-06-29 21:52, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:57:35 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Perhaps what is needed is a read-only nntp group with quick help tips such as what is appropriate on each forum/group, how to post, etc. I think I saw some tips (I'm talking out of year-old memories) on the web interface, but I don't see them on NNTP. We try to make the names pretty self-descriptive; many newsreaders can read a description field (it's optional in the RFC as I recall) that gives a text description of the group. I don't know if the server we use can present that, but I think it can.

I don't recall seeing it. Hovering the mouse pointer over the names do not show a description in thunderbird, so either the server doesn't send it or Th. doesn't use it. But I have a foggy recollection of seeing descriptions with leafnode.

perhaps that info could be incorporated into the info at http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate with the same level of detail as is provided for say Mailing List, IRC etc.. ?? for example, maybe something like the following with one for each forum/sub: ------sample-------- Install/Boot/Login - Questions about installation, login, boot issues, partitioning, file systems, software that runs at boot (GRUB, LILO, boot scripts). Join us via HTTP at [link] or via NNTP at [link]. ------end sample-------- since the descriptive words are found at the top of the first page of each form, populating an info set similar to that available for ML is mostly just a matter of copy/paste.. HOWEVER i do not see that that /Communicate page is slated for movement to the new wiki.... ??? DenverD -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:44:18 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

[sent later]

On 2010-06-29 21:52, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:57:35 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Perhaps what is needed is a read-only nntp group with quick help tips such as what is appropriate on each forum/group, how to post, etc. I think I saw some tips (I'm talking out of year-old memories) on the web interface, but I don't see them on NNTP.

We try to make the names pretty self-descriptive; many newsreaders can read a description field (it's optional in the RFC as I recall) that gives a text description of the group. I don't know if the server we use can present that, but I think it can.

I don't recall seeing it. Hovering the mouse pointer over the names do not show a description in thunderbird, so either the server doesn't send it or Th. doesn't use it. But I have a foggy recollection of seeing descriptions with leafnode.

What I meant was I don't know if the feature is enabled - if it is, there may not be descriptions filled in, and that's something we might be able to do. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 03 July 2010 05:30:02 Carlos E. R. wrote: ...

Anyway, I was going to try leafnode, when I discovered that 11.2 doesn't have it, they dropped it from the distro. Anybody knows why?

Lack of user interest, or lack of volunteers to package it. There is one in: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/davjam79:/console/openSUSE_1... davjam79 is David Bolt, that you should know from alt.os.linux.suse It is leafnode-1.11.8rc1-6.1.i586.rpm . -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 03 July 2010 07:00:30 Jan Engelhardt wrote: ...

Can I advertise to you re-alpine? ;-)

If you would be a bit more verbose what re-alpine is. (advertiser give more info without being asked for :) -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 03 July 2010 07:41:58 Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Saturday 2010-07-03 14:09, Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Saturday 03 July 2010 07:00:30 Jan Engelhardt wrote: ...

...

Can I advertise to you re-alpine? ;-)

If you would be a bit more verbose what re-alpine is.

An Ncurses MUA with NNTP capabilities.

( http://jftp.medozas.de/SUSE-11.2/x86_64/re-alpine-2.01+git42-jen0.x86_64.rp m )

Thanks. It is listed now in http://wiki.opensuse.org/Newsgroups_reader_software with link to your download page. I got to find somebody to rewrite that article and http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Usenet There is no much to transfer from http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate/Usenet . -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2010-07-03 13:55, Rajko M. wrote:

On Saturday 03 July 2010 05:30:02 Carlos E. R. wrote: ...

...

Anyway, I was going to try leafnode, when I discovered that 11.2 doesn't have it, they dropped it from the distro. Anybody knows why?

Lack of user interest, or lack of volunteers to package it. There is one in: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/davjam79:/console/openSUSE_1...

I saw it, yes, But being a home project... I don't install without knowing more. Then webpin stopped working.

davjam79 is David Bolt, that you should know from alt.os.linux.suse

I know him, IRC.

It is leafnode-1.11.8rc1-6.1.i586.rpm .

I was thinking of downloading and compiling it myself, time permitting :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkwxzVEACgkQja8UbcUWM1wA0AEAhVfZEsa/tVvstoGY46ta8FoF c4QjskMCiztJQUGED1AA/iTIQDg6I0xI0+4UjYX0lQy/EtKIsHDksxizIheNoZhX =ot52 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le samedi 03 juillet 2010, à 06:55 -0500, Rajko M. a écrit :

On Saturday 03 July 2010 05:30:02 Carlos E. R. wrote: ...

...

Anyway, I was going to try leafnode, when I discovered that 11.2 doesn't have it, they dropped it from the distro. Anybody knows why?

Lack of user interest, or lack of volunteers to package it. There is one in: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/davjam79:/console/openSUSE_1...

davjam79 is David Bolt, that you should know from alt.os.linux.suse

Maybe David would be interested in maintaining this package in the main openSUSE repository? (I don't know him) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 26 June 2010 01:44:23 DenverD wrote:

anyway, and unfortunately, we cannot count on the Redmond Ship Jumpers (RSJs) to know enough about what is going on to post into the correct forum once reshuffled..

The problem is not limited to RSJs. Web is a really big place; you stumble on interesting link and bookmark it. When someone finds interesting to shuffle content on his server, it will make your bookmark invalid, effectively erasing himself from your computer. The competitors for web visitor attention will greet the guy that came on such idea. Did I mentioned that changing URLs and making dead links is considered, by any article that I ever read about the web, as a very bad idea. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 27 June 2010 10:15:22 Philipp Thomas wrote:

IMO you will never get developers to participate in web forums.

How this sounds to those that are occasionally there? :) On a flip side you are right. Web forums are for people that have time to use interface that is filled with layout gimmicks, and not exactly easy to read, but NNTP access helps a lot in this respect. NNTP access + good client software is actually at least equally efficient as email, with additional benefit that you can post-moderate messages. When you have ability to remove spam from the server and move displaced messages to proper channel, there is no need for extra measures to prevent spam. I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is better. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 2010-06-27 22:09, jdd wrote:

...

I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is better.

news are good when you have a broadband permanent access. When you have only a 33.6 modem, mail is much better/cheaper

Even with broadband, having the forums loose on unneeded HTML and gimmicks would be a win. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 27/06/2010 23:14, Rajko M. a écrit :

web interface.

web interface allow editing the posts. As I do lot of typo, it's very valuable for me :-( jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 28/06/2010 18:43, Jim Henderson a écrit :

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 23:28:08 +0200, jdd wrote:

...

Le 27/06/2010 23:14, Rajko M. a écrit :

...

web interface.

web interface allow editing the posts. As I do lot of typo, it's very valuable for me :-(

You must have a similar problem with using the mail lists, then, no?

yes, but lists are more "disposable" medium. If a discussion give a result, this result is not intended to be seen through the archives, but written on the wiki. so errors are less important a web forum is an archive by itself jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 28/06/10 21:51, Jim Henderson wrote:

[...] True - I never thought of it that way, because ML archives tend to be utilised (at least on other MLs that I tend to use) - do others here also consider the MLs more of a disposable medium?

Certainly not. Thomas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Hello, On Mon, 28 Jun 2010, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:27:18 +0200, jdd wrote:

...

a web forum is an archive by itself

There's the list archives.

True - I never thought of it that way, because ML archives tend to be utilised (at least on other MLs that I tend to use) - do others here also consider the MLs more of a disposable medium?

Absolutely not. I have a full archive of the lists I read. -dnh -- MISC You are the 4711th visitor of this page. -- man xawtv -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:12:11 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Sunday 2010-06-27 22:09, jdd wrote:

...

...

I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is better.

news are good when you have a broadband permanent access. When you have only a 33.6 modem, mail is much better/cheaper

Even with broadband, having the forums loose on unneeded HTML and gimmicks would be a win.

The NNTP side is plaintext - you can connect a newsreader (and I know some mail clients - Thunderbird, Evolution, and I think KMail) to forums.novell.com and see how the forums look that way. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:10:15 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

...

The NNTP side is plaintext - you can connect a newsreader (and I know some mail clients - Thunderbird, Evolution, and I think KMail) to forums.novell.com and see how the forums look that way.

The NNTP access actually works very well (I'm not surprised, but it's worth saying) - the one thing I find a little unnerving is lack of email address and a sender name. Given the amount of traffic, the structure is not bad as such, but certainly not easily mapped on to the ML structure.

Hi The format is <openSUSE forum login name>@ so it's munged, this will then reference back to you actual account so you don't show up as Guest on the web side. -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.32.12-0.7-default up 3 days 0:39, 2 users, load average: 0.18, 0.08, 0.02 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 256.35 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 2010-06-28 19:19, Malcolm wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:10:15 +0200 Per Jessen <> wrote:

Hi The format is <openSUSE forum login name>@ so it's munged, this will then reference back to you actual account so you don't show up as Guest on the web side.

And what is the expected format for people using only nntp without a forum name? I see that some, like Per, use their openSUSE addresses. To me, it feels strange seeing so many people using aliases instead of real (or apparently real) names. Traditionally, on NNTP you could fake an address like "real like name" , which served to deter spam. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar))

[sent later] On 2010-06-29 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010 01:07:53 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

And what is the expected format for people using only nntp without a forum name? I see that some, like Per, use their openSUSE addresses. To me, it feels strange seeing so many people using aliases instead of real (or apparently real) names.

A legal e-mail address at the minimum. Some people use pseudonyms, some use real names, some use fake e-mail addresses, some use real ones.

It's typical to not use a real e-mail address because spammers tend to harvest e-mail addresses from newsgroups. Even gmane munges e-mail addresses - even in the message body text.

Yes, using a non real address makes sense. But having the common name (user part?) posted as an alias looks strange to me.

...

Traditionally, on NNTP you could fake an address like "real like name" http://objects.povworld.org/links10.html@public.gmane.org, which served to deter spam.

Hey! I did not write that! :-) I wrote "name (at) fake dot domain". I hope it doesn't get munged for you again, it lost all its meaning.

Do you see the quoted address here as an address at public.gmane.org (the user portion is name-BxgFnWKfcnbUF6G2QusZNg ) - I'm not sure what your original was (or if that was the original), but I know gmane munges it.

Yep. And I think it got re-munged when you posted back.

I see myself on gmane as hendersj-[random character string] at public.gmane.org instead of my gmail.com e-mail address.

It makes sense to me. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith))

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-28 19:10, Per Jessen wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:12:11 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

The NNTP side is plaintext - you can connect a newsreader (and I know some mail clients - Thunderbird, Evolution, and I think KMail) to forums.novell.com and see how the forums look that way.

The NNTP access actually works very well (I'm not surprised, but it's worth saying) - the one thing I find a little unnerving is lack of email address and a sender name. Given the amount of traffic, the structure is not bad as such, but certainly not easily mapped on to the ML structure.

I don't think so. Gmame does a bidirectional NNTP connection to the mail list, so it is possible. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwpJ8oACgkQU92UU+smfQWhhwCggpIEek1Hkyz+T4UDqTCiqqPl 4i0Anitksd/VkpdNPd1HXStcQqM7ywtZ =stHq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-06-27 22:09, jdd wrote:

Le 27/06/2010 21:48, Rajko M. a écrit :

...

I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is better.

news are good when you have a broadband permanent access. When you have only a 33.6 modem, mail is much better/cheaper

Not so. NNTP is old, it was used many years ago with worse communications than we have today. The trick was to download the groups for offline reading, disconnect, reply, connect again and upload your replies. This could be done with some clients, but in linux we could use "leafnode", a small NNTP server designed for this purpose. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwn3doACgkQU92UU+smfQWIZQCfQ/GxtpgrOjU8FY1NmKVmcmGZ U7sAn1kwz9sBz8PnUmtNvHIXWSg53ogy =+Kvn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 28 June 2010 00:32:31 Per Jessen wrote:

...

I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is better.

Let's not start that one.

Why not? It is not talk about what someone likes, but it is about choosing between medium that was not created for open communication (email) and one that was (usenet). Email works fine for groups that want to keep their communication off limits. All other stuff we have in play to make email lists open are just poor replacements for NNTP functionality. - You have to subscribe to read the messages. I don't consider email archives as substitute, as you can't simply press the button and reply. It is hard to even refer to some earlier message on the list, unlike NNTP. - You have to download messages before you can decide by the topic to read or not. Even automatic filtering happens when messages are already on your computer. - You can't move message to appropriate group Socially, mail lists are good to reinforce feeling of inner circle, which is exactly opposite from few times stated openSUSE goals. Usenet (NNTP) was always designed for the number of groups. The only problem that Usenet has is intentional openness, very much misused by spammers. I got no such problems on Novell forums, with all other advantages over email list: - No cumbersome subscription process, choose server and group and you can read - You can read any message - You can easily answer it - It downloads only headers so you can discard messages before download - Messages are stored on server; if you can access server you can read all messages from anywhere (no imap, private server, and what not) - It has powerful filtering based on header info - It is easy to refer to another post; you give subject, another user will copy and paste in a search field, and post will pop up. Try that with email. - it is post publishing moderated, so posts that don't fit are either moved or removed If we want openness, then we should not patch email service to allow what forums via NNTP had since ever, but use forums. It is simple to setup and use. Content of forums as reason not to read them is more sign that someone needs touch of isolation and exclusivity, that mail lists provide, despite all efforts to make them open. In case of openSUSE forums where moderators are doing fine job, complaining on content is lousy excuse. It is exactly what we make it. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M. wrote:

On Monday 28 June 2010 00:32:31 Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is better.

Let's not start that one.

Why not?

It is not talk about what someone likes, but it is about choosing between medium that was not created for open communication (email) and one that was (usenet).

Sorry, I thought you were discussing mailing lists vs webfora. [snip - big discussion of nntp, usenet and email]

Socially, mail lists are good to reinforce feeling of inner circle, which is exactly opposite from few times stated openSUSE goals.

Whether or not they are good for that purpose is irrelevant as long as we don't use them for it. I don't think mailing lists automatically reinforce some or other idea of an inner circle. (inner circles usually don't have thousands of members).

If we want openness, then we should not patch email service to allow what forums via NNTP had since ever, but use forums. It is simple to setup and use.

Rajko, I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying here, but if you're promoting webfora, I strongly disagree. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.9°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 2010-06-28 10:39, Rajko M. wrote:

On Monday 28 June 2010 00:32:31 Per Jessen wrote:

...

...

I guess that mail lists are just what people are used to, not what is better.

Let's not start that one.

Why not?

:-) There are technical reasons, and there are personal tastes. Then we (each person) chooses. :-) [mail]

- You have to subscribe to read the messages. I don't consider email archives as substitute, as you can't simply press the button and reply. It is hard to even refer to some earlier message on the list, unlike NNTP.

NNTP can require login/pass to post. If wanted. But once you subscribe to it, you can add new groups (or remove them) with a mouse click.

- You can't move message to appropriate group

I'm not sure you can do that on NNTP?

Usenet (NNTP) was always designed for the number of groups. The only problem that Usenet has is intentional openness, very much misused by spammers.

It can be restricted, too. Login/pass.

I got no such problems on Novell forums, with all other advantages over email list: - No cumbersome subscription process, choose server and group and you can read - You can read any message - You can easily answer it - It downloads only headers so you can discard messages before download

And you can download the contents for off-line reading. I did that this afternoon, at the tremendous speed of around 2..4 Kb/s. That's the problem of having only one server (as far as I know). It took about an hour or more for (I think) messages not older than 60 days - ie, not the entire archive.

- Messages are stored on server; if you can access server you can read all messages from anywhere (no imap, private server, and what not) - It has powerful filtering based on header info

It does not keep read tags across machines. I read my email on two machines using imap, and both keep in sync the read tags. I can't do that with NNTP, which is a problem for me.

- It is easy to refer to another post; you give subject, another user will copy and paste in a search field, and post will pop up. Try that with email. - it is post publishing moderated, so posts that don't fit are either moved or removed

On nntp too?

If we want openness, then we should not patch email service to allow what forums via NNTP had since ever, but use forums. It is simple to setup and use.

I don't like forums. Nntp is ok. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar))