Le 15/06/2014 11:55, ellanios82 a écrit :

then each week, on a 6-week cycle, use "rsync" to back-up whole system to one of the 6 partitions.

depends mostly of the kind of work one do. and I wont do like you, because I think it's the real way to broke old backups, specially having to manage several partitions on the same drive. secure backup needs scripts. Last error I made was to make a restore in place of a backup (line found in history), rsync syntax is not something one can use daily with variants :-(. jdd -- http://www.dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/15/2014 01:02 PM, jdd wrote:

secure backup needs scripts

- quite, quite : agree absolutely : ~ maybe, something like : ____________ # #!/bin/sh # # use rsync to backup WHOLE system / to /dev/sdc4 # mount -t ext4 /dev/sdc4 /mnt # df cd rsync -av --delete-after --exclude=/dev/shm --exclude=/media --exclude=/mnt --exclude=/proc --exclude=/run --exclude=/sys --exclude=/tmp --exclude=/var/lib/ntp --exclude=/var/run --exclude=/var/tmp / /mnt # umount /mnt ............... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/15/2014 01:38 PM, jdd wrote : re: rsync backup scripts ______________________ http://dodin.info/wiki/index.php?n=Doc.CompleteBackup ____________ - very good - very good regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/15/2014 06:47 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

The "configuration setting" was selected by the installation itself. Yes, the machine /is/ old, but I don't see anything anywhere that says that the processor (an Athlon XP) or the video card (a GeForce 6200) or the memory (2 GB) is not going to work.

Work? Yes. I have machines with far less than that, but I don't dream of using KDE4 on them.

+1 I have a 800MHz single core with 1G of memory under my desk running as DHCP/DNS + LDAP/Radius authenticator and a 30G drive. This is an old desktop from a decade or more ago that once ran W/98 for some primitive office functions. It was retired to the Closet of Anxieties from when I re-deployed it running openSuse, now on 13.1. And I would not dream of running KDE one it either! The mobo has a SiS graphics card but in reality all work on it is X-over-SSH. Of course during installation I can NOT select many things such as word processing, expensive Dms, and more. Yes, they can all fit on the 30G drive but I want some space for the LDAP database since I also use it for other things. The joke in the days when UNIX ran a small (and by today's standards incredibly underpowered) PDP-11 was that EMACS was an acronym for "Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping". Today we have virtual memory paging systems so you cn run an eight GIGABYTE application in just 1 gigbyte of memory. But as they say, "Virtual memory means virtual performance". -- "What you have to do and the way you have to do it is incredibly simple. Whether you are willing to do it, that's another matter." -- Peter Drucker -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2014-06-15 at 15:49 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-06-15 14:32, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

I have a 800MHz single core with 1G of memory under my desk running as DHCP/DNS + LDAP/Radius authenticator and a 30G drive. This is an old desktop from a decade or more ago that once ran W/98 for some primitive office functions.

I use an old laptop, with an external hard disk. I use it mainly for downloading things, which with my slow network can take days. An old laptop needs little electricity and little table space, and comes complete with keyboard and display ;-)

We often overlook the power consumption aspects of reusing old computers. '...old desktop from a decade [...] ago...' Maybe should be written, 'inefficient, hot and expensive to run'. The amount you'd spend by replacing it with something environmentally friendly is soon recovered. L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

On 06/17/2014 08:42 AM, lynn wrote:

...

We often overlook the power consumption aspects of reusing old computers. '...old desktop from a decade [...] ago...' Maybe should be written, 'inefficient, hot and expensive to run'. The amount you'd spend by replacing it with something environmentally friendly is soon recovered. L x

Actually, no, it isn't soon recovered.

Decade ago (2004) machines still had sleep mode, Energy Star, (and EU equivalent), auto-scaling of processor speed, disk sleep, etc.

A decade ago we were already running Core 2 Duo, and Celerons, and they were pretty good as far as energy usage.

Yep, older desktops don't consume an awful lot more energy than current ones. If you were to look at the efficiency (cost/cpucycle), that would be a different issue, but not really relevant (for a desktop).

You have to go back to the 486 days to find machines that are truely expensive to run, and nobody is going to be doing any serious work on that processor unless it is sitting in a corner running headless.

The last one we had was a firewall, decommissioned some years back. I'm not even sure if they were really much more expensive than todays regular desktop. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.4°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-18 11:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Old laptops consume even less ;-)

2 active UPS, router, tv recorder in stdby, tv in stdby, wireless home phone base in stdby, and old laptop + external HD -> about 35W.

Mistake. The laptop + HD + UPS (lappy does not have battery) takes about 50W. Another UPS, router, tv recorder in stdby, tv in stdby, wireless home phone base in stdby, another 25W. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 2014-06-18 22:27, jdd wrote:

Le 18/06/2014 17:29, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

On 2014-06-18 11:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The laptop + HD + UPS (lappy does not have battery) takes about 50W.

Another UPS, router, tv recorder in stdby, tv in stdby, wireless home phone base in stdby, another 25W.

one can have a hosted server (with professional infrastructure and 100Mb symetric network) for as low as €6 taxes included a month.

mau be less than the average AC at home

Does not help at all in my case. My Internet connection is slow. It takes me days to download the things I want, which means running something to do the download. If I were to use some external server, I would still need something running full day to get the files home. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 2014-06-18 06:23, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2014-06-17 17:42 (GMT+0200) lynn composed:

...

We often overlook the power consumption aspects of reusing old computers. '...old desktop from a decade [...] ago...' Maybe should be written, 'inefficient, hot and expensive to run'.

I don't think there's any rule of thumb about the current crop of desktops being any more or less efficient than those of 10 or 12 years ago. Power supplies and power supply recommendations had generally topped 275W by then, and they're rarely any lower than that now, often 400W or 450W or more.

Yes, but the losses have decreased, switching power supplies are better. Meaning that if the load doesn't need those 500W, but, say, 20 W, it doesn't take 40W from the mains. I don't have actual figures, but a quick check is how much a laptop power supply pack gets. I compare my old one to the new one, and the new one remains mostly cold or just warm. The old one gets hot. Or compare the size of AC-DC adapters for gadgetry, like cell phones: new ones are ridiculous in size and weight. They can't have a transformer inside!

CPU power consumption has generally averaged somewhere near the middle ground between 45W and 95W throughout the

I think that what has improved most is the standby power. How much a CPU needs when idling. How much the same CPU uses at full computing power and max freq, as compared to when the load is about 5%. That's what is important for typical small server, running full time, but actually used little. It just waits. (I'm idly considering rigging up a solar panel and battery to power up those small but permanent loads. Feasible? Worth it? :-? ) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

On 15/06/14 20:47, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2014-06-15 11:34, Tony Alfrey wrote:

...

...

So all your derogatory remarks about KDE/Linux were just that you had a configuration setting that your equipment couldn't handle. As I said KDE makes use of an incredible amount of eye-candy/glitz/bling. My "derogatory remarks" were the same remarks that everyone made about Windows Vista when everyone discovered that they had to upgrade their video card, add more memory, or even worse, to make it work. Please remember that this is a community, volunteering help on their free time, mostly. This is not a company making money, like Microsoft is. Derogatory remarks will not help you; on the contrary, they may make

Anton Aylward wrote: people turn against you.

...

The "configuration setting" was selected by the installation itself. Yes, the machine /is/ old, but I don't see anything anywhere that says that the processor (an Athlon XP) or the video card (a GeForce 6200) or the memory (2 GB) is not going to work. Work? Yes. I have machines with far less than that, but I don't dream of using KDE4 on them.

...

Yes, there was a time when the big selling point of linux was that it would work on a minimal machine. What ever happened to that ethic? It is there, but it is not the default on openSUSE. There are distributions that cater for limited machines. KDE4 is certainly not suited for old/limited machines.

But you did not tell us what sort of machine you were using, or ask us for advice...

...

Does having all of that eye candy in KDE really make it better or does it just slow everything down? It is wonderful on a modern, powerful machine. It is designed for that.

...

I'm certainly glad that Mr. van Hasstreght was enough of an expert about KDE to know that all I had to do was to use a simple keystroke combination to turn off all of this stuff. He, try gnome then. It may refuse to run upfront, on your machine :-p

And, possibly, both would work on your machine using the corresponding proprietary video driver for your card.

...

Will it be necessary for every new user of KDE to go and study all of this documentation? And how would I have searched for the appropriate key words, such as "KDE seems totally broken"? By instead of shouting "broken!" instead you ask for help nicely :-)

Advise: Linux is "free" in several senses, but it makes you pay with effort and time. So be prepared.

...

This is precisely the type of argument that I wanted to avoid, and that which seemed to be prominent on the SuSE list. It will not attract new users. In fact, I thought I might go check out the linux counter http://linuxcounter.net/ It is impossible to get a factual estimate of Linux users. They know nothing of me, for instance. :-p

...

It seems that the original enthusiasm for linux that attracted /me/ in 1999 may have cooled. Could it be exactly because of the sort of problems I encountered today? Nope. :-))

In fact, there are many people that, when Microsoft dropped XP recently, converted their machines to Linux and are churning happily along.

While I agree with everything you stated, don't be too harsh on the lad. Afterall we still have people here who refuse to keep up with the world and still think, and argue, that what grandpa and grandma had was good enough and, in fact, worked better than what we now have! (I won't mention any names, of course :-) .) It would have been so much better if Tony had mentioned in his original post the details of the system he was using - which I would have thought that he would have done having been (as claimed) since 1999 but, of course, in the heat of the moment one tends to forget that one is posting a message of complaint to a group of mind-reading and psychics who, naturally, know exactly what s/he is talking about. We all do this from time to time. But what I find particularly puzzling is the lack of knowledge that openSUSE can be installed with a variety of desktop environments and not simply with Gnome or KDE. A nint: when installing openSUSE pay attention to what shows up on the screen and make your choice. If you have an old system still running a 32-bit CPU and with barely adequate amount of RAM, then why not use something like XFCE which uses so much less resources? The option is there when one is installing openSUSE - the preferred default options are Gnome or KDE, but one has the choice of using other desktop environments. Whenever someone brings up a problem with installing openSUSE the people who are the followers of the Gnome cult or those who are followers of the KDE cult come out with their suggestions on how to solve the poster's problem. But using XFCE is a solution for people with limited computer resources. A friend of mine refuses to use anything else than XFCE (he does have a 64-bit system) because it allows him to do everything - which is more than some people here even dream of doing - and which leaves him with an abundance of resources which would normally be taken by either Gnome or KDE. BC -- Using openSUSE 13.1, KDE 4.13.2 & kernel 3.15.0-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/16/2014 08:40 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:

My point is that for a limited use machine KDE is viable. However, I do agree with Basil, XFCE is probably a better choice.

I'm currently in the process of setting up a "new" refurb computer to replace my current firewall system. It's a 64 bit AMD CPU & 2 GB of memory. I installed it with XFCE, even though it could probably run a full desktop. BTW, that refurb came with 64 bit Windows 7 Home Premium. I used it's licence key to install Windows 7 in a virtual machine on my main computer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-16 11:00, Per Jessen wrote:

For KDE3 1Gb was plenty, but KDE4 needs a bit more.

My old mom board worked well with KDE3, but really bogged down with "Linux Vista" (KDE4). Even with an Intel Core i7 CPU (4 cores & hyperthreading) and 8 GB of memory, performance could be better with KDE4. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-16 12:20 (GMT-0500) James Knott composed:

My old mom board worked well with KDE3, but really bogged down with "Linux Vista" (KDE4).

LOL :-D -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/16/2014 10:20 AM, James Knott wrote:

On 2014-06-16 11:00, Per Jessen wrote:

...

For KDE3 1Gb was plenty, but KDE4 needs a bit more.

My old mom board worked well with KDE3, but really bogged down with "Linux Vista" (KDE4). Even with an Intel Core i7 CPU (4 cores & hyperthreading) and 8 GB of memory, performance could be better with KDE4.

There is something else wrong with that machine if it has problems with KDE4. I have an old Core 2 Duo laptop, with only 3gig, and it is more than acceptable with KDE4, even with a good amount of the Bling turned on, using the stock AMD Radeon using community drivers. Its quite snappy, programs launch quickly, and I can even run VMware and achieve acceptable performance in virtual machines. Its still using almost a gig for disk cache and buffers and hasn't touched swap at all. In fact, it works better and faster than the OS it was delivered with. (I still have that hard disk it was delivered with still with the old OS on it). After way more years than it should have taken, and after many years of bitching, KDE4 is really quite fast and outperforms the old KDE3 in every way. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/16/2014 1:38 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2014-06-16 13:29 (GMT-0700) John Andersen composed:

...

After way more years than it should have taken, and after many years of bitching, KDE4 is really quite fast and outperforms the old KDE3 in every way.

...except for the features never ported over from KDE3, and bugs like https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=320561 and https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=321781 and this awful misfeature: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325286

KDE4 may be better for some, but certainly not me.

Way to cherry pick bugs. Like there weren't (and aren't) still bugs in ANY version of every DE. (I just filed one myself today. Its got a chance of being fixed. Good luck with KDE3 bugs). NONE of these bugs affect me. The items reported work as expected. Restore session works perfectly. I use it every morning when I wake my machine. My Activities finally behave as they should. (4 years on, KDE has pretty much told the activities community to shut up and sit down, its not about them anymore.) These are old bugs against old releases, and regardless of the state of the bug report they aren't apparent in KDE 4.13.2 (current). -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/16/2014 2:07 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

No picking involved. I can't forget them. They infuriate me virtually constantly on more than a dozen installations.

...

These are old bugs against old releases, and regardless of the state of the bug report they aren't apparent in KDE 4.13.2 (current).

I haven't upgraded anything from 4.13.1 yet, but I'm not holding my breath in expectation of any improvement on any of those I listed.

As I said, these do not affect me, not on my primary opensuse machine, and not on Kubuntu nor Mint. I suggest you have something else horribly hozed, and given that there are only 6 people on the CC list it seems you are in the distinct minority. -- _____________________________________ ---This space for rent--- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Andersen írta:

On 6/16/2014 2:07 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

No picking involved. I can't forget them. They infuriate me virtually constantly on more >>than a dozen installations.

...

These are old bugs against old releases, and regardless of the state of the bug >>>report >>> they aren't apparent in KDE 4.13.2 (current).

I haven't upgraded anything from 4.13.1 yet, but I'm not holding my breath in >>expectation of any improvement on any of those I listed.

As I said, these do not affect me, not on my primary opensuse machine, and not on >Kubuntu nor Mint.

I suggest you have something else horribly hozed, and given that there are only 6 people >on the CC list it seems you are in the distinct minority.

KDE4 is defective by design. When it is not possible to add to the panel manual hide buttons by adding few lines of code, and even by more serious hacking - defective by design. When it is not possible to set the panel clock font size for the hour and date independently - defective by design. When it is not possible to set the panel size by exact number, only by dragging - defective by design. When it is not possible to mount devices onto the desktop - defective by design. When it is not possible to remove some idiot icon from the corner - defective by design. I guess the list goes on. Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Damian Ivanov írta:

Please let the list go on I am developing a QML desktop environment (already in advanced state) which is not affected by any of these problem.

1. I don't know what QML means and I don't understand what you are talking about. What has it to do with KDE3/KDE4? 2. I've been a member of this list for ten years, so don't tell me what I can post. Are you the maintainer or administrator of this list to tell others what they can post? 3. Not I am the one who disregarded list etiquette and was even proud of it. Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

John Layt írta:

On 18 June 2014 16:08, Istvan Gabor wrote:

...

Damian Ivanov írta:

...

Please let the list go on I am developing a QML desktop environment (already in advanced state) which is not affected by any of these problem.

1. I don't know what QML means and I don't understand what you are talking about. What has it to do with KDE3/KDE4?

2. I've been a member of this list for ten years, so don't tell me what I can post. Are you the maintainer or administrator of this list to tell others what they can post?

3. Not I am the one who disregarded list etiquette and was even proud of it.

Istvan

Way to go, insulting someone who was actually agreeing with you and asking you to carry on with your list of perceived defects so he could ensure the new desktop he's writing with the same toolkit as KDE doesn't have them.

John.

Sorry, then I misunderstood what he wrote. As he did not quote what he replied to, I thought, by writing "let the list go on", he meant "do not post such thing/leave this list alone", and not the items I listed in my message. Sorry. Istvan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-18 16:08 (GMT+0200) C composed:

Istvan Gabor wrote:

...

KDE4 is defective by design.

...

When it is not possible to add to the panel manual hide buttons by adding few lines of code, and even by more serious hacking - defective by design.

...

When it is not possible to set the panel clock font size for the hour and date independently - defective by design.

...

When it is not possible to set the panel size by exact number, only by dragging - defective by design.

...

When it is not possible to mount devices onto the desktop - defective by design.

...

When it is not possible to remove some idiot icon from the corner - defective by design.

...

I guess the list goes on.

It does...

It's not possible to do most of the silly minor things you list because no developer sees it as a priority. ... The only problem you have with KDE4 is that it's not KDE3.

Because all those things Istvan listed were included parts of what made people like KDE3 better, parts lost in KDE4 because the KDE wizards decided they needed to start all over from scratch instead of fixing things that caused trouble fixing things. I do wonder why Ilya is sticking with KDE3 instead of what I would think to be less work in the form of the TDE project. In January email between my normal Earthlink email account and the tde mailing list got some bogus spam filter halting both directions, so I have no idea what's been going on there lately without making a trip to its archives. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-18 17:43 (GMT+0200) C composed:

...

Because all those things Istvan listed were included parts of what made people like KDE3 better, parts lost in KDE4 because the KDE wizards decided they needed to start all over from scratch instead of fixing things that caused trouble fixing things.

Because you can't explicitly set the font size on the default clock widget? So what.

Again, because that's the way it was before many years of work was discarded, and I liked being able to select the perfect size. Someone must have thought long before KDE4 start over from scratch was conceived that it was a useful feature.

Not everyone wants or needs to set the font size. I hated that about KDE3.

No one forced you to not accept the default size.

You can use a different widget... if an existing one doesn't suit what you need... make a new widget that does allow you to set the font. You are not stuck with the default widgets.

I don't know about creating widgets, and shouldn't have to. It was fine before the start from scratch and ignore features useful to KDE3 users.

Other panel issues? Change the panel. The default panel is not the only panel.

The default in KDE3 was OK, and easy to tailor the little bit I wanted to, putting the panel hiding button on the right end.

Don't like the KDE Kickoff Menu?

Worse than don't like, but turning on old trusty is easy enough.

Other than the cashew thingy (and even that can be hidden), almost everything (that was listed) can be changed by simply using a different desktop widget, or making your own if none suit your needs.

I shouldn't have to learn to build a widget in order to get the exact same pixel height for the panel for every login under this roof. A number typed is easy to replicate, the exact opposite of a mouse drag.

The KDE4 bug reports that a few people post here usually affect incredibly old versions of KDE4, and are such incredibly minuscule corner cases that 6 people on the planet are affected.

You call them corner cases. I find those problems to be easily repeatable with virgin users. 6 people commenting in a bug doesn't mean anything. Far less than every user of KDE is familiar with bug reporting systems and makes use of them. Huge numbers encounter disliked behavior and just live with it, hoping it goes away at update time. Why do you think people are always clamoring for each new version the minute upstream announces it? They hope more annoyances have been removed than new ones introduced.

If those "bugs" are so incredibly important for you, fix them

"Fix them" is BS. Only a tiny proportion of users are programmers. It was fine before the start from scratch and ignore features useful to KDE3 users.

or use a DE that is more suitable for your needs.

AFAIK, the only DEs better than KDE4 are KDE3 and TDE.

I, and a LOT of others like where KDE4 has gone. I like how it works.

Because not everything KDE3 had was discarded in creating KDE4. Those content or even overjoyed with KDE4 as is are those who weren't using the discards.

...

I do wonder why Ilya is sticking with KDE3

It has to be an incredible amount of work to make that creaky old unmaintained code continue to work as the rest of the planet moves on. His (and others) work is used and appreciated by people who prefer KDE3.

No kidding. :-p

That's great, and it fits an ever shrinking niche of Linux. Maybe those efforts might be better focused to TDE? Who knows... that's up to Ilya to decide when he's had enough :-P

You totally miss the point by short-quoting, leaving out "instead of what I would think to be less work in the form of the TDE project". TDE has multiple people adapting the "creaky old code" to the foundational changes in the base operating system, plus making tiny changes now and then to TDE itself as made prudent on account of the foundational changes. AFAIK, there is only Ilya for KDE3, and that only for openSUSE users. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/18/2014 02:48 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2014-06-18 17:43 (GMT+0200) C composed:

I shouldn't have to learn to build a widget in order to get the exact same pixel height for the panel for every login under this roof. A number typed is easy to replicate, the exact opposite of a mouse drag.

I learnt much about UNIX, years ago, by reading shell scripts and either modifying them or copying fragments of code form them. I look at the QML code in ~/.kde4/share/apps/plasma/plasmoids/minimalclock/contents and I can see how it works even though I don't know QML. Its a pretty obvious chunk of code. I can add a line property string textFont and the appropriate defaults, read and UI statements based on what I see there. Other parts of the setup and wideget are in XML; where there isn't a GUI your inner geek can exercise its EMACS/VI/PICO skills. -- /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML Mail / \ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 17:43:17 C wrote:

[...] I, and a LOT of others like where KDE4 has gone. I like how it works. It's easy to use, and simply works on all workstations I've installed it on. You couldn't pay me to go back to KDE3. I'd rather use OSX, and for those that know me, they know how extreme of a statement that is.. I detest OSX.

Hey, you can even make KDE4 look and feel almost like OSX. ;) Seriously though, I like KDE4 too, now. I've used it from the first release and, despite the early problems, it is now a mature, functional and good- looking DE. To the OP, the best part about Linux and FOSS in general? Choice. If you don't like it, change it or use something else. It's not Windoze, after all... :) -- ============================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au ============================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 18/06/14 23:43, Istvan Gabor wrote:

John Andersen írta:

...

On 6/16/2014 2:07 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

...

No picking involved. I can't forget them. They infuriate me virtually constantly on more >>than a dozen installations.

...

These are old bugs against old releases, and regardless of the state of the bug >>>report >>> they aren't apparent in KDE 4.13.2 (current). I haven't upgraded anything from 4.13.1 yet, but I'm not holding my breath in >>expectation of any improvement on any of those I listed. As I said, these do not affect me, not on my primary opensuse machine, and not on >Kubuntu nor Mint.

I suggest you have something else horribly hozed, and given that there are only 6 people >on the CC list it seems you are in the distinct minority. KDE4 is defective by design.

When it is not possible to add to the panel manual hide buttons by adding few lines of code, and even by more serious hacking - defective by design.

When it is not possible to set the panel clock font size for the hour and date independently - defective by design.

When it is not possible to set the panel size by exact number, only by dragging - defective by design.

When it is not possible to mount devices onto the desktop - defective by design.

When it is not possible to remove some idiot icon from the corner - defective by design.

I guess the list goes on.

Istvan

One of the most cock-ups in the is world is what god (called God by those who call him/them God) is when he (or He/Them) "created" some animal called "man". Wot a disaster! One would have thought that "God" would have the intelligence - "He/They" knows everything you know but don't broadcast this.... - to create "man" with all the features which "God" had - afterall we are told that "God" created "man" in his "own image". But alas and alack, nobody it seems is perfect. And so it is understandable that those who wrote KDE are as bright as "God" that is, they keep getting things wrong. But, unlike "God" they can get the bugs fixed in a short time: a week or two or three....... But after thousands of years or more God still hasn't fixed the stupidity of "man". BC -- Using openSUSE 13.1, KDE 4.13.2 & kernel 3.15.0-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/18/2014 12:48 PM, Dylan wrote:

On 18/06/14 15:18, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

One of the most cock-ups in the is world is what god (called God by those who call him/them God) is when he (or He/Them) "created" some animal called "man".

Wot a disaster!

"Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. And some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no one should ever have left the oceans."

Now there might be something to that last. Look at Dolphins. Play around, eat and have sex all day. Beats the heck out of punching the time clock. -- Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must. like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it.-Thomas Paine _ _... ..._ _ _._ ._ ..... ._.. ... .._ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-06-18 11:15 (GMT-0700) John Andersen composed:

Every one of your complaints is possible with just a tad of googling.

Hardly. The panel menu button is welded to the spot where all my Kickers have the panel hide button I routinely use; and AFAI have ever been able to find, no way to even have a manual panel hide button. Others listed are a royal PITA to figure out how to solve or just work around. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 7:20 PM, James Knott wrote:

On 2014-06-16 11:00, Per Jessen wrote:

...

For KDE3 1Gb was plenty, but KDE4 needs a bit more.

My old mom board worked well with KDE3, but really bogged down with "Linux Vista" (KDE4). Even with an Intel Core i7 CPU (4 cores & hyperthreading) and 8 GB of memory, performance could be better with KDE4.

Errr.. really? I use KDE4 daily and push it hard, including high end gaming and I've yet to bog it (KDE 4.13) down in any way. I had performance issues with older releases, but not for quite a while now. The only issue... video card maybe? But even there, I'm running openSUSE 13.1 with KDE4 on an old Asus EEE PC (1005HA) which has a 1.6GHZ Atom, 2GB RAM (upgraded from the std 1GB), GMA 950 video, and a generic hard drive (not an SSD). KDE works fine there (with compositing turned off). That is NOT anything resembling a hotrod system at all... yet it's completely usable.. not bogged down (anymore really than any DE on this hardware). There has to be something seriously wrong with the install or your configuration if KDE4 is struggling on an i7 and 8GB RAM. C. -- openSUSE 13.1 x86_64, KDE 4.13 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/17/2014 08:04 AM, James Knott wrote:

On 06/17/2014 04:26 AM, C wrote:

...

Errr.. really? I use KDE4 daily and push it hard, including high end gaming and I've yet to bog it (KDE 4.13) down in any way. I had performance issues with older releases, but not for quite a while now.

One thing I frequently experience is my system becoming unresponsive to mouse and keyboard for a few minutes. That problem the reason I upgraded my motherboard to one with an Intel core i7 CPU, that's 4 cores & hyperthreading. The problem still occurs, though not as severe as my old mom board. When it happens, kswapd0 seems to be the culprit, but Firefox or Seamonkey might be involved. I run top, iotop and the System Monitor, on their own desktop to see what happens. On the new motherboard, System Monitor shows 2 or 3 cores (of 8) pegged at 100%. Incidentally, it may take a couple of minutes to switch to the desktop where I have the monitors running. I did not experience this prior to KDE4.

I've seen the same -- that kswapd0 issue, and its owned by root and I see its parent ID=2 so that "k' means 'kernel' not 'kde') -- and the load average goes up to the 20s or 30s! Now I'm running KDE 4.13 it doesn't seem to happen any more. Back when it did I tried 'by elimination'. Eliminating Thunderbird and Firefox ensured it never happened. But that was then this is now, and KDE, T'Bird and FF have all seen upgrades so I don't know .... It hasn't happened recently. Perhaps the moral is to keep your s/w up to date :-) Really though, T'Bird and FF are Gnomic/Gtk apps rather than Kde/Qt apps. I know that shouldn't have anything to do with it, but sometimes I wonder ... If LXDE, XFCE and the other lightweight DMs would handle FF start-up properly ... I run FF with multiple windows and while they all start OK with KDE with XFCE only one of them comes up. That is, I have multiple FF windows in KDE, log off, and when I log on again in XFCE and start FF again it restores all my tabs ... But only in one window. That is the tabs of one of the windows; the tabs in the other windows are lost. -- Life's a bitch. Then you die. Then you get re-incarnated and it starts all over again only worse. And it doesn't matter if you don't believe in reincarnation, Life's still a bitch. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/17/2014 12:30 PM, James Knott wrote:

On 06/17/2014 09:06 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

Perhaps the moral is to keep your s/w up to date

I do keep them up to date. Also, this is a fresh install just a few months ago. I can understand that some apps can misbehave, but isn't it the responsibility of the OS to keep them in line?

As others have pointed out, the DVD ISO is not kept up to date. A fresh install still needs the "updates" repository configured and used. As for KDE, that has its own "Current" repository. We had an announcement about that a a short wile ago. I'm running 4.13.2. As for the OS keeping apps in line, well yes-no-maybe. Apps can still do silly things. All the OS is doing is managing the resources and access controls. I also, as have mentioned, suffer problems with video drivers, which are run as part of the kernel. And yes an app might ask a video controller to do something. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/17/2014 10:22 PM, James Knott wrote:

On 06/17/2014 10:14 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

And yes an app might ask a video controller to do something.

That violate my understanding of how an OS is supposed to keep an app from directly accessing hardware. One of the big problems, back in the DOS days, was how apps would bypass the OS and talk directly to the hardware. However, it was pretty much necessary to do that in light of the poor support in DOS

I won't get into a pizzing match over how a virtual system should or should no map clients onto hardware, for example letting a virtual DOS/Windows access the hardware. But do look at how X-Windows/xorg has its various hardware specific modules access the hardware. Also look at how 3rd party drivers do it. One way is via shared memory .... Also look at DRI (Direct Rendering Infrastructure) which is a framework for allowing software to access graphics hardware in a safe and efficient manner. -- The heresies we should fear are those which can be confused with orthodoxy. -- Borges, "The Theologians" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/17/2014 10:03 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

How big is netpredictions.sqlite in your Gecko profiles? Places.sqlite?

I have no idea what that means.

How many open tabs? Does your top look anything like this?

I often have multiple Firefox windows open, some with multiple tabs.

Does your top look anything like this? PID VIRT RES SHR %CPU %MEM COMMAND USER TIME+ PR NI S 26313 344m 120m 16m 13 3.0 firefox-bin def 746:02.01 20 0 S 32732 1318m 1.0g 48m 7 25.0 seamonkey def 76:13.95 20 0 S 26513 662m 320m 29m 4 8.0 firefox def 105:11.62 20 0 R 2726 192m 57m 3948 2 1.4 Xorg root 514:17.17 20 0 S 3159 0 0 0 2 0.0 kworker/1:2 root 0:03.00 20 0 S 3146 30876 8184 5836 1 0.2 kcmshell def 153:31.15 20 0 S 3216 2516 984 708 1 0.0 top root 56:31.68 20 0 R 18241 633m 297m 32m 1 7.4 seamonkey def 29:35.12 20 0 S 25923 793m 475m 22m 1 11.8 firefox def 61:00.88 20 0 S 2903 98524 44m 10m 0 1.1 konqueror def 101:31.34 20 0 S 26373 146m 33m 7120 0 0.8 plugin-containe def 35:17.41 20 0 S

Yeah, something like that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* James Knott [06-18-14 15:18]:

On 2014-06-16 11:00, Per Jessen wrote:

...

For KDE3 1Gb was plenty, but KDE4 needs a bit more.

My old mom board worked well with KDE3, but really bogged down with "Linux Vista" (KDE4). Even with an Intel Core i7 CPU (4 cores & hyperthreading) and 8 GB of memory, performance could be better with KDE4.

Something amiss with your equipment. I have kde4.12.4 running on an amd athlon 64 3800+ with 4 GB w/o any problem. But it is not good for processing video or photographs. It is more than fine for reading mail and surfing web, .... -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org