On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 04:37:10PM +0200, Stephan Binner wrote:

Read the README in KDE/ ?

...which says: The KDE packages do get developed in the openSUSE project from now on. As a result they are downloadable via the repositories from openSUSE Build Service instead of this location. Please read this page for further instructions: http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/User You can find the packages and repositories below http://software.opensuse.org/download/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/ (latest KDE 3 core packages.) http://software.opensuse.org/download/repositories/KDE:/Backports/ (latest KDE applications. They do not require an update to the latest KDE anymore, because they are compiled against the original KDE from your distribution.) A call for mirrors: We do look for further mirrors of the Build Service repositories. Please read http://en.opensuse.org/Mirror_Infrastructure and get in contact with ftpadmin@opensuse.org, if you are willing to mirror these files. adrian@suse.de ... I wonder how that leaves those of us who use apt? ftp://ftp4.gwdg.de SuSE/10.1-i386/kde pkglist is not found either. Michael -- San Francisco, CA

On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 05:00:35PM +0200, Stephan Binner wrote:

Am Dienstag, 30. Mai 2006 16:45 schrieb Michael Nelson:

...

... I wonder how that leaves those of us who use apt? ftp://ftp4.gwdg.de SuSE/10.1-i386/kde pkglist is not found either.

That has the one to answer who created this apt repository, so not SUSE.

SuSE brought out 10.1 with apparently untested and wholly unusable package management / update tools. Some of us were resourceful enough to find another way (apt). SuSE then makes an unannounced change that completely breaks apt, and your attitude is as shown above. Thanks so much. It's attitudes like yours that make the decision to dump SuSE easier. Michael -- San Francisco, CA

On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 07:15:00PM +0200, Stephan Binner wrote:

It's your uninformed flaming which makes the decision to ignore you so easy.

What a charmer! ;-) Michael -- San Francisco, CA

Stephan Binner wrote:

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 17:24, Michael Nelson wrote:

...

to find another way (apt). SuSE then makes an unannounced change that completely breaks apt, and your attitude is as shown above.

SUSE is not responsible for third-party repositories it has no control over.

...

It's attitudes like yours that make the decision to dump SuSE easier.

It's your uninformed flaming which makes the decision to ignore you so easy.

Are you saying that SuSE didn't release an untested and utterly broken software management / updating system? I'm rather surprised by SuSE's attitude with 10.1. There are serious problems introduced, and the posture of SuSE posters to this list has been to either ignore it, or pretend it's a non-issue. Do you understand that SuSE 10.1 is supposed to be release software and not an RC? The ZenWorks updater clearly wasn't ready. From what I've read, it wasn't even included in the 10.1RC's. Software Updates are one of the most critical areas of a distro and an issue that really differentiates many distros. 10.1 completely dropped the ball on this one, and SuSE hasn't addressed this beyond releasing a beta update that seems to only do the bare minimum of providing functionality. It still takes far more resources, completely sucking up the machine for up to several minutes every time it checks for updates, from what I've read. What is SuSE doing? What are you guys thinking? What's the rationale behind all these changes? I'm not seeing how this is better than the previous version, am I missing something? Is there anything you can give me that might provide some hope for the future? The cynical side of me is pointing to the $130 / seat price tag of the full version of ZenWorks as where Novell wants this to end up. I don't want that to be the case, but I've heard nothing that contradicts it.

Is the http://software.opensuse.org/download/KDE:/KDE3/SUSE_Linux_10.1 repository for pre-release software? The base packages indicate version 3.5.3 but on the kde.org web site there is no announcement that 3.5.3 has been released. I'm presuming those of us who don't need a version upgrade of KDE but want some of the latest KDE updates should stick to the Backports repository? Thanks, Mark -- _________________________________________________________ A Message From... L. Mark Stone Reliable Networks of Maine, LLC "We manage your network so you can manage your business" 477 Congress Street Portland, ME 04101 Tel: (207) 772-5678 Web: http://www.rnome.com This email was sent from Reliable Networks of Maine LLC. It may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you suspect that you were not intended to receive it, please delete it and notify us as soon as possible. Thank you.

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 01:48 pm, suse@rio.vg wrote:

What is SuSE doing?  What are you guys thinking?  What's the rationale behind all these changes?

I started with SuSE at version 6. I used to call SuSE "the Cadillac of Linux distributions." Those days are over. We have to face the fact that the SuSE we once knew is gone. Remember all the speculation and arguing about what would happen to SuSE when Novell took over? We are seeing the sad answer. Bryan *************************************** Powered by Mepis Linux 3.4-3 KDE 3.5.2 KMail 1.8.3 This is a Microsoft-free computer Bryan S. Tyson bryantyson@earthlink.net ***************************************

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 01:03, Leendert Meyer wrote:

Things are developing, not only with SUSE/Novell, but everywhere. Somethimes it's not easy to get used to a change one doesn't like.

The sad answer is: /Perhaps/ you see things not as they really are.

The happy answer is: Perhaps you're still driving that Caddillac without realizing it... ;)

I hope so! I like my Cadillac. Jerome

Cheers,

Leen

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On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 04:57 -0500, Glenn Holmer wrote:

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 12:48, suse@rio.vg wrote:

...

Are you saying that SuSE didn't release an untested and utterly broken software management / updating system?

Are you saying that you were paying attention during the process? What was it, nine betas and three RCs? How many did you install?

...

The ZenWorks updater clearly wasn't ready. From what I've read, it wasn't even included in the 10.1RC's.

no, definitely not paying attention... and not helping by filing bug reports.

The "Zenworks updater" was not able to be tested during the beta/RC phase because there were -NO- repos to test it against. Had there been any repos available the problems would have been caught early on and been fixed in time for the GM release. -- Ken Schneider UNIX since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE since 1998

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Ken Schneider writes:

...

The "Zenworks updater" was not able to be tested during the beta/RC phase because there were -NO- repos to test it against. Had there been any repos available the problems would have been caught early on and been fixed in time for the GM release.

We have had repositories up for testing and tested successfully updates with zen-updater! The problem is that real live is different than constructed test cases :-(

Andreas

In theory, practice follows theory. In practice, it doesn't. ;-)

We have had repositories up for testing and tested successfully updates with zen-updater! The problem is that real live is different than constructed test cases :-(

i don't understand this one. The repos are all there and live - so why didn;t final testing take place against "real world" situation. Testing in a controlled testbed situation is only good for initial testing.

Stephan Binner wrote:

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 17:24, Michael Nelson wrote:

...

to find another way (apt). SuSE then makes an unannounced change that completely breaks apt, and your attitude is as shown above.

SUSE is not responsible for third-party repositories it has no control over.

I have been buying (with a standing order) and using each and every SUSE release since 5.1. I knew I supported friends who worked at SUSE, even though they don't do it any more. Answers like this and the one where you point out that we missed IRC discussions -- and where it reads as this would be our fault -- make me wonder if I shouldn't switch to another distribution. Am I now supposed to follow IRC, just to get my updates running? (Because you SUSE guys didn't supply a working and released online update, up to now.) No, it ain't your responsibility to care for the apt repositories. But it would have been *very* nice for us mere users, if you would have coordinated that move with 3rd-party apt repository owners who supply services that _you_ were supposed to supply, but didn't. (That means, `you' as in SUSE, not you personally.) The current attitude of SUSE staff concering the ZMD disaster comes across as quite arrogant and doesn't raise confidence in your work, just to let you know. Regards, Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod Email: jschrod@acm.org Roedermark, Germany

On Wednesday 31 May 2006 00:09, Joachim Schrod wrote:

Am I now supposed to follow IRC, just to get my updates running?

You're mixing things. That was my answer to "what are you thinking?" question.

But it would have been *very* nice for us mere users, if you would have coordinated that move with 3rd-party apt repository owners who supply services that _you_ were supposed to supply, but didn't. (That means, `you'

SUSE doesn't supply apt repositories and I don't know a reason why it should. About coordination, afaik the server admin of ftp.gwdg.de server (co)creates the apt repositories on the gwdg server. He was informed about the switch in advance and even started to mirror openSUSE build service repositories under ftp://ftp-1.gwdg.de/pub/opensuse/repositories/ . Why he decided (and I'm sure without being told) to delete the "kde" apt repository, dunno. Ask *him*! Bye, Steve

On 5/31/06, Joachim Schrod wrote:

Yes, but even then. If you follow this mailing list, there is a dire need to know "what are you thinking". I agree that this mailing list is not the case to document how you come to your decision, but communication about the outcome of the decision process of updating would be advantagous.

yes! Keep us informed.

There has been no posting to any announcement list, or to the general users list that explains the situation. On www.opensuse.org, no information is readily available. At least it's not visible in the pages that are referenced as "Documentation", "News", and "FAQs". The Documentation / Installation page still references YaST repositories. Somebody who just comes to the OpenSUSE homepage and even looks at the second-level pages doesn't learn a thing about the new concept, the current problems, and the supposed solutions.

In my opinion, the SUSE has a severe communication problem here.

yes -- exactly. And this has been a Novell issue, for years! And, I think also it was/is a SUSE issue. there is just some kind of reluctance to feed the masses with information. The Novell "cool blogs" thing is a good step in the right direction, and from what I have heard the corp mandate now is that employees web presence is supported and encouraged, with the only caveat being NDA stuff. this fiasco was a PERFECT example of why more open communication is needed!

See, that's great information. Thanks for supplying that. (This is meant earnestly, and not sarcastic.) So you did what we asked for, and got flak for reasons beyond your reach. Why don't you tell that, and instead stop short at the harsh remark "that's not our beef"?

yep -- great example!

My tip: The reception here of that news would have been *much* friendlier if you would have informed us from the start that you have been in contact with the GWDG owner (that's still Eberhard, ain't it?), he knew about the switch, and made a decision that you don't know about. Just like you did above; that was really appreciated. Communication with users is as important as technical work, and that's IMHO deficient in the current situation.

excellent post .Joachim! I do wish the "the world of SUSE is ending, hurry, run!" people would calm down. But I also believe that Novell/SUSE need to do a much better job of forcasting what is coming up, and what the road map is. We should have known along time ago, that online_update was going away, and YOU should have explicitly ASKED US, the COMMUNITY, to explicitly test the zen replacement. We would have done it, gladly, and this embarrassment would have been avoided. Peter

On 31/05/06 08:55, Stephan Binner wrote:

On Wednesday, 31. May 2006 15:25, Peter Van Lone wrote:

...

...

to know "what are you thinking". I agree that this mailing list is not the case to document how you come to your decision, but communication

yes! Keep us informed.

Again, this "user support users" mailing list is the wrong place for what you're looking for. Development happens over at openSUSE site/lists/IRC.

If you follow this mailing list, there is a dire need to know "what are you thinking". I agree that this mailing list is not the case to document how you come to your decision, but communication about the outcome of the decision process of updating would be advantagous. When you tell us that we should be following the development side of

Respectfully disagreed, Stephan. *This* is the place for discussions of released versions. We are not speaking here of developing anything, we are speaking only of support for a *released* version of SuSELinux. When support for 9.1 was discontinued, the announcement was made here, not even in suse-announce-* where I would have expected it to be made. Similarly, when you make a massive changes to the structure of your support/update tree, you cannot expect anyone here to know about it unless you announce it here. Do you really expect that someone who is not interested in the development side should subscribe to even one development mailing list, just so he can (maybe) learn about such things? Should I put a client into your IRC channel full-time, just so I can (maybe) learn something about your plans for supporting a *released* version? The opensuse-* mailing lists are for development only (at least, if I can trust what it says on the opensuse website), and I am not interested in all that stuff -- so I do not subscribe. But now you tell me that to learn the kind of information that is being discussed in this thread, maybe I will have to do all of those things, and more. You go on to speak of reading blogs and bug reports as if the people on this list have nothing better to do than wade through massive volumes of irrelevant material, just to learn about something that will seriously impact how we try to resolve each others' problems. Joachim summarized the entire issue very well in his post, to which you have not replied: things just to learn such things, you are asking the impossible, if for no other reason than few, if any, of us have the time to read through all that (to us) irrelevant information, just to learn the occasional useful tidbit.

On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 03:46:35PM -0600, Darryl Gregorash wrote:

On 31/05/06 08:55, Stephan Binner wrote:

...

On Wednesday, 31. May 2006 15:25, Peter Van Lone wrote:

...

...

to know "what are you thinking". I agree that this mailing list is not the case to document how you come to your decision, but communication

yes! Keep us informed.

Again, this "user support users" mailing list is the wrong place for what you're looking for. Development happens over at openSUSE site/lists/IRC.

Respectfully disagreed, Stephan. *This* is the place for discussions of released versions. We are not speaking here of developing anything, we are speaking only of support for a *released* version of SuSELinux.

The supplementary tree is however not a "released" SUSE version. Originating as a hobbiest project, it is/was a "for your information" style of updates, which were: - totally and absolutely unsupported - not for the faint at heart, since breakage could happen - provided as-is, no QA - etc. They are now beeing replaced by the next generation of "supplementary", the openSUSE buildservice, which has: - more possibilities - more flexibility - as part of the openSUSE project is a bit more official Oh, and I missed the suse-announce lists with my 9.1 discont announcement, it should have gone there too. CIao, Marcus -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 16:00, Stephan Binner wrote:

Am Dienstag, 30. Mai 2006 16:45 schrieb Michael Nelson:

...

... I wonder how that leaves those of us who use apt? ftp://ftp4.gwdg.de SuSE/10.1-i386/kde pkglist is not found either.

That has the one to answer who created this apt repository, so not SUSE.

Bye, Steve

Are you seroiusley trying to get rid of users big time or just have some form of power complex. You NEED to Stop Dissing KDE if you got to Dis something then TRY Gnome what you seem to fail to realise is that is is US the users/purchasers od suse that have made it possible for people like you to have a job within suse and it is high time you all started to LISTEN to the USERS , Quite frankley i could not give a monkeys toss about shareholders and companys you have brought into . Get this no users no money NO JOBS get the idea or is the concept still a little to far ahead. Pete getting moer and more hissed off by the day at the way Novell are treating the SuSe User base. -- The Labour party has changed their emblem from a rose to a condom as it more accurately reflects the government's political stance. A condom allows for inflation, halts production, destroys the next generation, protects a bunch of pricks, and gives you a sense of security while you are actually being fucked. from GSM

On Tuesday 30 May 2006 17:57, Peter Nikolic wrote:

...

That has the one to answer who created this apt repository, so not SUSE. You NEED to Stop Dissing KDE if you got to Dis something then TRY Gnome

Writing to a KDE developer at SUSE to stop dissing KDE is... well funny. Bye, Steve

Op dinsdag 30 mei 2006 16:45, schreef Michael Nelson:

Please read this page for further instructions:

   http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/User

In case zmd/zen is not working those rpms can be nicely installed with smart, see: http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/User#smart Smart can use the apt repository and the buildservice repository. Therefor give smart a go and see how to it works. On the other hand apt is nowadays also capable of processing repodata formatted repositories, but there is no 10.1 package yet. -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless

On 30/05/06, Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Tue, May 30, 2006 at 08:44:36PM +0200, Richard Bos wrote:

...

In case zmd/zen is not working those rpms can be nicely installed with smart, see: http://en.opensuse.org/Build_Service/User#smart

Or using YUM. Or using YaST.

The updater crashed on me, so I fired up yast and was happy to see that it had all the same updates selected for me. It cost me maybe 10 minutes of wondering whether I'd be able to update, but in the end I got to the same goal. It does kind of suck that the updater doesn't work (to say the least), but for now I find it only a minor inconvenience. -- Paul

Op woensdag 31 mei 2006 13:15, schreef Leendert Meyer:

Or did you mean that the current 10.1 apt package does not understand repodata, and its successor will?

Indeed. Try smart from suser-guru (apt install smart-gui) it will do the trick. From there on you'll be able to install anything you like from e.g the suse buildservice. As example use this url http://software.opensuse.org/download/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/SUSE_Linux_10.1... and the rpm-md format in smart and kde is nicely installable again :) No repository creation burden on the gwdg.de server anylonger, the server can now just focus on delivering rpms ;) -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless

Op woensdag 31 mei 2006 21:17, schreef Leendert Meyer:

...

No repository creation burden on the gwdg.de server anylonger, the server can now just focus on delivering rpms ;)

Yes, that's a big pro. :)

Hmm, does this mean that apt/apt4rpm/synaptic will phase out???

That might be...., although it is not needed. It could be provided via the build_service. But look at how much work Pascal Bleser puts into smart to have it supported nicely, why not use smart. The recently released apt-rpm version is able to process repodata (as provided by the buildservice), but the output you get while being apt updates is not really clear. It is like: getting ftp://ftp.... primary.xml.gz getting ftp://ftp.... primary.xml.gz getting ftp://ftp.... primary.xml.gz So, no idea what is happing. Smart-gui on the other hand shows what is going on, I have no idea what smart (cli) does. -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless

Op donderdag 1 juni 2006 01:10, schreef Leendert Meyer:

...

Smart-gui on the other hand shows what is going on, I have no idea what smart (cli) does.

The same: it shows what it's doing.

BTW, I miss the 'apt --download-only upgrade'... ;)

me too! Is that not delivered by smart (cli)? What I miss as well, is side by side from and to version information. With smart there is only 1 version listed. I assume it is the to version, but it might as well be the from version.... Now how can I judge the update of a single patch??? -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Leendert Meyer wrote:

Found it: smart upgrade --download

This is even better: smart upgrade --update --download (an equivalent of apt update && apt upgrade)

Well, lots of discovering to do... :P

I used Your idea above, and I then after got 38 new packages in the channel. But when smart reach the point where it actually should do the upgrade, it is standing from now, and until I get bored with it only showing "Computing transactions ...." What is that, and what logfile shows what smart does ?. /Erik -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com

Erik Jakobsen wrote:

Leendert Meyer wrote:

...

Found it: smart upgrade --download

This is even better: smart upgrade --update --download (an equivalent of apt update && apt upgrade)

Well, lots of discovering to do... :P

I used Your idea above, and I then after got 38 new packages in the channel. But when smart reach the point where it actually should do the upgrade, it is standing from now, and until I get bored with it only showing "Computing transactions ...."

What is that, and what logfile shows what smart does ?.

/Erik

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Hi! Am Dienstag, 30. Mai 2006 16:45 schrieb Michael Nelson:

http://software.opensuse.org/download/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/ (latest KDE 3 core packages.)

http://software.opensuse.org/download/repositories/KDE:/Backports/ (latest KDE applications. They do not require an update to the latest KDE anymore, because they are compiled against the original KDE from your distribution.)

So if I install KDE 3.5 on a 10.0 which comes with 3.4 I should add the backports for 10.0 and install a digikam-package that was compiled against 3.4? Or should I add the core-packages for 10.0 to get KDE 3.5 but then add the backports for 10.1 in order to get packages compiled against KDE 3.5? I see the benefit for those that keep th core-packages that come with 10.0 because they get new versions of non-core applications compiled for their KDE version. Yet for those who use KDE 3.5 on a 10.0 having to use packages that were compiled with KDE 3.4 is worse than using the former supplementary, is it not? Sven

Hi! Am Mittwoch, 31. Mai 2006 09:16 schrieb Stephan Binner:

...

Yet for those who use KDE 3.5 on a 10.0 having to use packages that were compiled with KDE 3.4 is worse than using the former supplementary, is it

Why worse? There are not many applications taking advantage of kdelibs 3.5 specific features out there and even less requiring it.

If there would be essential features missing because of being compiled against an older kdelibs, please list them, one can easily create a new project in the build service and let the app compile against the KDE:KDE3 packages.

Ok, thanks for the info! I just see that some packages at guru for example are explicittly compiled for KDE 3.5 or 3.4 and hence I thought it would make a difference. Sven

On Friday, 2. June 2006 01:27, Mark A. Taff wrote:

Without getting into specifics, how about bugfixes in the core KDE libraries? So because we install 10.0 with KDE 3.4 we should forever be haunted by kdelibs bugs that were fixed in 3.5?

As proven in the other thread, you're clueless and wrong with that. Bye, Steve -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com