On czw, Apr 11, 2019 at 11:31 PM, "Maurizio Galli (MauG)"
<mauriziogalli(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 at 11:09 PM, Ludwig Nussel
> <ludwig.nussel(a)suse.de> wrote:
>> Maurizio Galli (MauG) schrieb:
>> > On 4/9/19 7:17 PM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:
>> > [...]
>> > > I think we reached a fair compromise with the primary choices
>> listed
>> > > in the role selection while all other options are available via
>> the
>> > > "custom" option. I'd prefer to see the patterns cleaned up so
>> the
>> > > presentation in YaST can be done in a meaningful way¹ rather
>> than
>> > > abusing that role selection dialog for even more stuff.
>> >
>> > Just to give you a bit of background, I was personally not
>> > particularly enthusiastic of the "generic desktop" option because
>> it
>> > adds additional steps and is not as intuitive as the older "custom
>> > install", which I liked a lot. A few others in the online
>> communities
>> > I reside expressed similar concerns which eventually was one of the
>> > reasons that motivated me to do the work and push for a Xfce system
>> > role, which has been done for TW.
>> >
>> > Anyway I appreciate your time in explaining things to me as there
>> are
>> > obviously many things I don't know yet and I'm learning along the
>> way.
>> >
>> > I will probably bug you again about this when the new Leap 15.x or
>> 16 :-).
>>
>> What's basically needed is development resources from the yast team
>> and
>> a UX person.
>> We need a solution that works for SLE, Leap and Tumbleweed
>> without too much different code. The previous desktop selection was
>> too
>> openSUSE centric and the role selection coming from SLE on the other
>> hand isn't really geared towards openSUSE.
>>
> Sounds like what we basically need is LCP who knows UX and is
> familiar with Yast :-)
I'm sure there are more UX experts than just me out there, I only know
YaST as
much as I looked into it, which is too much :P
> I have seen some interesting mockups that if technically doable would
> be worth exploring.
Doable with a lot of work in various places, considering YaST is split
up into
a lot of pieces.
Desktop environment selection replaced with roles was a blessing in
disguise in
my opinion, there is an opportunity there to remove the useless pattern
dependencies, patterns depending on or recommending other patterns,
which is an
issue primarily on Tumbleweed where recommends get reinstalled with dup
(the
same happens with Leap, but Leap dups are rarer). The whole recommends
section
of most patterns should be moved to be role-installed patterns instead.
This way
a person that selects a gnome pattern, but does not want games that are
recommended by it, can uninstall it easily without worrying about them
coming
back on the next update. The obvious disadvantage is that the way roles
work
prevents us from having a software selection, because a role has to be
selected
first for any pattern recommendation to be applied. Another obvious
issue is
that removing a role doesn't remove the software that came with it, but
that's
an issue to be resolved with zypp itself (most likely via introducing
similar
database as is present in dnf, to log all the package activities and
dependencies so we can have proper removal of needless dependencies).
> But I am not sure if we should keep the discussion here or bring it
> to one of the ML.
I mean, the people that should know about this are YaST folks
primarily. They
have been working on a bunch of cool stuff recently, which enhances
quality of
YaST's various backends. The work that remains to be done is the
frontends.
libyui ncurses, qt and gtk need love since the day they were created,
it would
also make manatools developers happy to know somebody cares to improve
on the
toolkit abstraction that they also use. GTK backend especially needs
some
special care and attention, since it could be a great thing to ship with
GNOME/Xfce when it's usable (and there are people like Besser that put
their
heart and soul into that backend over the years to still keep recieve
chronic
lack of attention from YaST guys).
The mockup in question:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/496049131928682506/56439272051310594…
(Also mentions the projection of when this will get implemented based on
Leap version)
LCP [Stasiek]
https://lcp.world
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Maurizio Galli (MauG) schrieb:
> On 4/9/19 3:13 PM, Ludwig Nussel wrote:
>> Maurizio Galli (MauG) schrieb:
>>> I just wanted to ask if there is still time and it's ok to make the
>>> same change to skelcd-control-openSUSE Leap 15.1 branch as I did in
>>> https://github.com/yast/skelcd-control-openSUSE/pull/165
>>
>> Leap will not offer XFCE in the role selection screen.
>
> Ok, assuming that there is a chance to make such change in the future,
> I would appreciate some advice from you. I understand openQA needs
> some tuning for the upgrades. Anything else?
I appreciate your efforts, in fact I have users with XFCE on Leap to
take care of too. So I'm very happy when XFCE doesn't cause trouble
(never did).
However, from a product point of view having two official/primary
desktop environments already is luxury. I don't intend to add more.
My main reason is that the ones taking care of the release don't
scale arbitrarily. A primary desktop choice in my opinion comes with
certain promises about quality and continuity. Those have to be
supervised by someone. Automated test cases in openQA are key to
that but still someone has to take care. Check failures, create
needles, restart jobs, report bugs for QA, follow up on bug
reports... Then QA or someone has to fix test cases etc. We do that
for KDE and GNOME as they are primary choices. Issues with KDE or
GNOME can hold back a snapshot and even the release after all.
So for me putting XFCE into that role selection screen means
promoting it to the same level as KDE and GNOME. Consequence in turn
would be that we have to put the same effort. The effort for that is
missing elsewhere then.
I think we reached a fair compromise with the primary choices listed
in the role selection while all other options are available via the
"custom" option. I'd prefer to see the patterns cleaned up so the
presentation in YaST can be done in a meaningful way¹ rather than
abusing that role selection dialog for even more stuff.
cu
Ludwig
[1] https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/900993#step/select_patterns_and_packages/…
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