Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Montag 26 April 2010 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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Any kind dev around can provide us with a nice, easy to use, tool? O:-)

(I ask in this list because I worry that Linux, in general, doesn't seem to be very interested in producing translated manuals. Are we? ;-) )

The KDE project - and many others - use docbook to write the man pages and then use XSLT to produce groff. And for docbook you have the tools.

That's it, exactly what I was thinking of. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 26/04/2010 12:35, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

Which tools?

Qt Linguist, for example, kbabel (http://freshmeat.net/projects/kbabel/), and one of the traduc member is the author of an other (omegat http://www.omegat.org/fr/omegat.html) and probably others. that said I personnally mostly use vi :-() jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 26/04/2010 14:10, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

kbabel for man pages? I've never used it for that. It can not even open man.1, how on earth are you using it? It is impossible unless upstream they create the po files somehow.

I'm not personnally involved in translating man pages. Most being very small, I beg they are translated with vi, but I will ask and report here jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Apr 26, 10 15:15:56 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2010-04-26 14:38, jdd wrote:

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Le 26/04/2010 14:10, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

I'm not personnally involved in translating man pages. Most being very small, I beg they are translated with vi, but I will ask and report here

Thanks.

The tool I have used till now, manedit, doesn't build in x64. I'd like something similar or better... but there is nothing. :-(

I established a new project home:jnweiger:doc manedit is there, po4a too. Freshly compiled, untested. Let me know if you can make any use of these... cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Apr 28, 10 10:30:15 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I'm curious. Where did you got the two patches you added? Did you create them from scratch, are they somewhere to be found for people to use...? :-?

I created disk.cpp.strncat.patch to fix a few buffer overflow errors. No idea where manedit-0.6.1.lib64.patch comes from. Saw it in one of the home directories. The patches and specfile are freely available from https://build.opensuse.org/stage/package/files?package=ManEdit&project=home%3Ajnweiger%3Adoc cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "You are trying to use packages from project 'openSUSE:11.2'. Note that malicious packages can compromise your system." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Le 28/04/2010 10:30, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

The question remains, the one that made me ask in this list, is what can be done to increase the number of manual pages translated, and to keep them updated?

manual pages are specific to each application. I know only of kernel manual pages held by the LDP (http://tldp.org/manpages/man.html). Some time ago There where a discussion on LDP mailing about hosting the Debian man pages, I will investigate to know if they are somewhere here. As LDP coordinator I'm ready to host a centralized man page repository. Translating these things for each distro is ridiculous :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On 4/26/10 6:07 PM, Juergen Weigert wrote:

On Apr 26, 10 15:15:56 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2010-04-26 14:38, jdd wrote:

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Le 26/04/2010 14:10, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

I'm not personnally involved in translating man pages. Most being very small, I beg they are translated with vi, but I will ask and report here

Thanks.

The tool I have used till now, manedit, doesn't build in x64. I'd like something similar or better... but there is nothing. :-(

I established a new project home:jnweiger:doc manedit is there, po4a too. Freshly compiled, untested. Let me know if you can make any use of these...

cheers, JW-

Thanks to Juergen for fixing up mandedit, which has been neglected in my home project for a while. I can say manedit despite being an old gtk1 app is quite usable. I have used it for editing the Scribus man pages, which are multi-lingual as well. And it does exist in 64bits thanks to a patch I pinched from Mandriva. Perhaps, we could push this into Contrib if folks are interested and they find it useful. Cheers, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Apr 26, 10 12:35:10 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2010-04-26 12:30, jdd wrote:

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Le 26/04/2010 12:11, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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...

Hi,

Man pages are a pain to translate, and many translations are obsolete. Same, or worse, info pages.

at least for fench there is a traduction project (http://traduc.org). man pages are not distro-specific, so it's better to have a cross solution.

and there are tools

Which tools?

Serna is supposed to be an XML editor with wysywig qualities. Haven't used it though. http://www.syntext.com/downloads/serna/ cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Apr 26, 10 14:10:46 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2010-04-26 12:57, Juergen Weigert wrote:

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On Apr 26, 10 12:35:10 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Which tools?

Serna is supposed to be an XML editor with wysywig qualities. Haven't used it though. http://www.syntext.com/downloads/serna/

Closed source?

No. It's open source, I understand ... http://forum.syntext.com/syntext-serna-xml-editor/serna-open-source-discussi... No idea how to directly work with man.1 files. Serna may be most helpful with docbook. sigh, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-26 15:09, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

On 2010-04-26 14:46:06 +0200, Juergen Weigert wrote:

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...

...

...

Which tools?

Serna is supposed to be an XML editor with wysywig qualities. Haven't used it though. http://www.syntext.com/downloads/serna/

Closed source?

No. It's open source, I understand ... http://forum.syntext.com/syntext-serna-xml-editor/serna-open-source-discussi...

No idea how to directly work with man.1 files. Serna may be most helpful with docbook.

Talk to Susanne Oberhauser about it. IIRC she was involved in opensourcing it.

Well, I have installed "serna-free-4.2-4.2.0-20091009.i686.rpm". It hasn't put any icon I can click to start it, there is nothing in /bin or /usr/bin, so I don't even know how to start it. The "thing" installs the starting script in "/opt/serna-free-4.2/bin/serna.sh". Yagh! And there is no manpage example. (If anyone replies to this one, please do so on the opensuse list, this is getting technical.) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvV9VUACgkQU92UU+smfQVpRACfahHOJNt8Nq9AtRRw5QRinZSH k2sAnAwxmUKfuj3xmB3N0r179WkT6PPL =FFlm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Apr 27, 10 11:03:26 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Well, I have installed "serna-free-4.2-4.2.0-20091009.i686.rpm". It hasn't put any icon I can click to start it, there is nothing in /bin or /usr/bin, so I don't even know how to start it.

One way to view the files an RPM is installing is using the -ql option of rpm, that is

rpm -ql serna-free | grep /bin/

Which is helpful for the technically inclined, but not for the end user. For a perfect user experience (in an ideal world), installing a package foo should make 'something' of the name foo appear in the system. This something could be - a desktop icon, - a menu entry, - something the desktop search can find, or - (at least!) a command on the command line. Just my humble opinion, ignoring any feasability. I checked out serna yesterday to see, if a desktop file could be easily added. Just to find out, that serna does not even compile on 11.2 and up. cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "You are trying to use packages from project 'openSUSE:11.2'. Note that malicious packages can compromise your system." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Apr 27, 10 12:04:39 +0200, Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

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For a perfect user experience (in an ideal world), installing a package foo should make 'something' of the name foo appear in the system. This something could be - a desktop icon, - a menu entry, - something the desktop search can find, or - (at least!) a command on the command line.

Just my humble opinion, ignoring any feasability.

Err, sure, but: what would a package like ufoai-maps give you in the menu?

Nothing. The list above is 'or', not 'and'. It should be sufficient, if the deskop search engine would be able to respond with, "yes, we have ufoai-maps installed, it provides no desktop apps, no commandline apps, but adds to or is required by package 'ufoai', see there."

maybe cnf could be extended to: - check for command (it does) - Check for package name => if found, give the user some info what he could do (like rpm -ql <package> to list it's content, rpm -qi <package> to show it's information and so on).

But then: a user that won't understand the content of the package still will not be helped in this case... We just gap a bridge for the technical user that is not willing to read man pages.

Bridging that gap is already a good thing. A user may not want to understand package contents at all, but some introspection like my example above should also be helpful.

for any package that provides an application, I agree: if it's an X-app there has to be a .desktop file (or an argument why it would not be needed). At least on Factory / contrib we could enforce the rule to reject it if not provided (which I'm not sure if it's done, but I could easily imagine it is).

Originally I thought writing .desktop files was pure horror, and can only be done by Adrian. But reading http://en.opensuse.org/Packaging/SUSE_Package_Conventions/Desktop_Menu motivated me to try it myself :-) ... thanks, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "You are trying to use packages from project 'openSUSE:11.2'. Note that malicious packages can compromise your system." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-27 11:03, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Well, I have installed "serna-free-4.2-4.2.0-20091009.i686.rpm". It hasn't put any icon I can click to start it, there is nothing in /bin or /usr/bin, so I don't even know how to start it.

One way to view the files an RPM is installing is using the -ql option of rpm, that is

rpm -ql serna-free

if you alread have installed it, or

rpm -ql -p serna-free-4.2-4.2.0-20091009.i686.rpm

if you want to have a look just based on the RPM file.

As you noticed, executables then tend to be in subdirectories called bin, so something like

rpm -ql serna-free | grep /bin/

might help.

Very true... but in this case it did not. You see, the run script is installed by the postinstall script of the rpm, so it is nowhere to be found in the list of installed files. And it is not in the path, it is: "/opt/serna-free-4.2/bin/serna.sh". - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvXUV8ACgkQU92UU+smfQWkQACeLG5KYcprT4rUrILwRAO3DeS1 KsIAnj2hkD+TPDOjUpoX4Dlu5TRNWnM8 =wv+e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-26 15:50, jdd wrote:

Le 26/04/2010 12:11, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

One of the problems is that there is no modern tool for doing the job. It is done in plain text with arcane tokens, and the result is "compiled" later. Fine for devs, bad for plain, poor translators.

talking with the omegat developper, omegat can open the man pages if you add ".txt" at the end. Thay are openned as plain text, but omegat can help translating sentence by sentence, managing dictionaries and so on.

Well, almost any editor can do that. For example, joe and mcedit can; so can vi and emacs. All of at least them understand the syntax and use syntax colour. But that is a... "galimatías", a gobbledygook if you prefer. Look: .pc .TH MAN 1 "2008-05-05" "2.5.2" "Manual pager utils" .SH NAME man \- an interface to the on-line reference manuals .SH SYNOPSIS .\" The general command line .B man .RB [\| \-c \||\| \-w \||\| \-tZ \|] .RB [\| \-H \|\c .RI [\| browser \|]\|] .RB [\| \-T \|\c .RI [\| device \|]\|] .RB [\| \-X \|\c .RI [\| dpi \|]\|] .RB [\| \-adhu7V \|] .RB [\| \-i \||\| \-I \|] .RB [\| \-m .IR system \|[\|,.\|.\|.\|]\|] .RB [\| \-L .IR locale \|] .RB [\| \-p .IR string \|] .... .\" The apropos command line .br .B man .B \-k .RI [\| apropos .IR options \|] .I regexp \&.\|.\|. .\" The whatis command line .br .B man .B \-f .RI [\| whatis .IR options \|] .I page \&.\|.\|. .SH DESCRIPTION .B man is the system's manual pager. Each .I page argument given to .B man is normally the name of a program, utility or function. The .I manual page associated with each of these arguments is then found and displayed. A .IR section , if provided, will direct .B man to look only in that .I section of the manual. The default action is to search in all of the available .IR sections , following a pre-defined order and to show only the first .I page found, even if .I page exists in several .IR sections . The table below shows the .I section numbers of the manual followed by the types of pages they contain. That's very difficult to edit and translate.

I see also on debian a po4a utility that can translate mlost things to/from po files

http://people.debian.org/~jfs/debconf6/html/x790.html

Nice tool, but it has to be setup by the devs of each project. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvV6dcACgkQU92UU+smfQUHJACdGRyXGk1IFelGfu9E4yWs9c9/ UvwAn2RwI0Qwkswf9uNtUoCSNdoS4egj =bvl2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-26 20:43, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Man pages are a pain to translate, and many translations are obsolete. Same, or worse, info pages.

One of the problems is that there is no modern tool for doing the job. It is done in plain text with arcane tokens, and the result is "compiled" later. Fine for devs, bad for plain, poor translators.

I think there is a plethora of tools "out there" that will let you write in e.g. SGML, and produce almost any kind of outpout, including a man page.

In a WYSIWYG, modern, way? Like OpenOffice? With a working example? No, there is none. I have tried a lot of them. Many of them require that I type cryptic tokens if I start a summary, another for bold, all mixed with the text. No, sorry, no way. I'm not going to learn all that gobbledegook, I'm too old a dog for learning difficult new tricks. And when they look nice, they don't have a working example of a manpage I can use. Right now I'm testing "serna", it appears to be the kind I want, but even with the docbook example opened I fail to see how to produce a man page. I see the package includes "/opt/serna-free-4.2/xml/stylesheets/docbook-xsl-1.68.1/manpages", with no help, a README that points to " http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=468779&group_id=21935&atid=373749", with comments dated 2001 asking for help and no reply. The mailing lists So, I have absolutely no idea how to create a manpage with serna (or any other docbook editor), or worse, open an existing one and translate it. :-( Feel free to reply in the opensuse list if you know how to do that. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvV9MwACgkQU92UU+smfQVRJQCgjrO7ptr9Fb2r0I331dgHcbUj FYMAnRJJorBXaxx7V3fp9O5g+TqPnqRk =pMP6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-27 10:26, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

In a WYSIWYG, modern, way? Like OpenOffice? With a working example? No, there is none. I have tried a lot of them.

I would have to spend some time googling, but I _know_ I have come across projects which had man pages written in SGML or XML - during the build, output was produced as man-pages, or html or pdf etc. There is no reason why the same could not be written in ooxml (or whatever it is openoffice uses) and be converted in the same way. The formatting elements used in man pages are, like you say, quite simple.

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced someone has already done it - look, an openoffice document is nothing but an XML-document with some extra bits (you just unzip the document). An XML-document is very easily turned into (using an XSL stylesheet) suitably formatted input for producing man-pages (isn't that done with nroff ?).

Actually, I have tried that. I found a process with OOo (I don't remember the details), but I didn't succeed. I should have notes of what I found somewhere. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvXUToACgkQU92UU+smfQUu3ACglMkFAzeP2mdZrDpGAXN+KeTK GkMAn08HZbVBpLwtQn0DiN7Uuc27TDbQ =AV0R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org