[opensuse-project] i18n: man pages

Carlos E. R.

26 Apr 2010 26 Apr '10

10:11

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Man pages are a pain to translate, and many translations are obsolete. Same, or worse, info pages. One of the problems is that there is no modern tool for doing the job. It is done in plain text with arcane tokens, and the result is "compiled" later. Fine for devs, bad for plain, poor translators. A GUI would be nice. It would be perfect if LyX could produce them, but I have been unable to succeed, so far. Manedit is such a tool (http://freshmeat.net/projects/manedit/), but last time I looked it did not support UTF-8, it is nowhere to be found in the buildservice, and fails to compile in 64 bits. Any kind dev around can provide us with a nice, easy to use, tool? O:-) (I ask in this list because I worry that Linux, in general, doesn't seem to be very interested in producing translated manuals. Are we? ;-) ) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvVZr8ACgkQU92UU+smfQWUogCgkODbHyqvonNL4a3CpN3F+GvC dagAoJUNeMdz7+t3c20GcIPKguyepcvw =xpJi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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Stephan Kulow

26 Apr 26 Apr

10:21

...

Any kind dev around can provide us with a nice, easy to use, tool? O:-)

(I ask in this list because I worry that Linux, in general, doesn't seem to be very interested in producing translated manuals. Are we? ;-) ) The KDE project - and many others - use docbook to write the man pages and

Am Montag 26 April 2010 schrieb Carlos E. R.: then use XSLT to produce groff. And for docbook you have the tools. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd

10:30

Le 26/04/2010 12:11, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Hi,

Man pages are a pain to translate, and many translations are obsolete. Same, or worse, info pages.

at least for fench there is a traduction project (http://traduc.org). man pages are not distro-specific, so it's better to have a cross solution. and there are tools jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10:31

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-26 12:21, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Any kind dev around can provide us with a nice, easy to use, tool? O:-)

(I ask in this list because I worry that Linux, in general, doesn't seem to be very interested in producing translated manuals. Are we? ;-) ) The KDE project - and many others - use docbook to write the man pages and

Am Montag 26 April 2010 schrieb Carlos E. R.: then use XSLT to produce groff. And for docbook you have the tools.

Too complex, no WYSIWYG tools. I tried, did not succeed. I want something like oowrite, simple, where bold looks bold, indent looks indented. No arcane tokens. Or something like LyX, that in theory supports docbook and the older linuxdoc, even has (had?) some man page template that doesn't work. I never could write man pages with LyX. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvVa4AACgkQU92UU+smfQUxKgCePD/BNjrkto1St/TQR9l0PvBn amsAn3UIYByAGG6nv3RdInIgzxAMOIYV =lI6/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

10:35

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-26 12:30, jdd wrote:

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Le 26/04/2010 12:11, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

...
Hi,

Man pages are a pain to translate, and many translations are obsolete. Same, or worse, info pages.

at least for fench there is a traduction project (http://traduc.org). man pages are not distro-specific, so it's better to have a cross solution.

and there are tools

Which tools? (the page "http://www.delafond.org/traducmanfr/" is not available in English, by the way) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvVbF4ACgkQU92UU+smfQWNwACdELqML+Gf/fS7SBS2QOJLuYDX tcoAnA1FhgoJh4c7MFbpbTizxRHMZRk5 =X5L2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd

10:43

Le 26/04/2010 12:35, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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Which tools?

Qt Linguist, for example, kbabel (http://freshmeat.net/projects/kbabel/), and one of the traduc member is the author of an other (omegat http://www.omegat.org/fr/omegat.html) and probably others. that said I personnally mostly use vi :-() jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Juergen Weigert

10:57

On Apr 26, 10 12:35:10 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2010-04-26 12:30, jdd wrote:

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Le 26/04/2010 12:11, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...
...
Hi,

Man pages are a pain to translate, and many translations are obsolete. Same, or worse, info pages.

at least for fench there is a traduction project (http://traduc.org). man pages are not distro-specific, so it's better to have a cross solution.

and there are tools

Which tools?

Serna is supposed to be an XML editor with wysywig qualities. Haven't used it though. http://www.syntext.com/downloads/serna/ cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

12:10

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-26 12:57, Juergen Weigert wrote:

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On Apr 26, 10 12:35:10 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

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Which tools?

Serna is supposed to be an XML editor with wysywig qualities. Haven't used it though. http://www.syntext.com/downloads/serna/

Closed source? Any howto on how to use that to edit man.1 directly? Or a process to get it done? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvVgsYACgkQU92UU+smfQXC2wCeM0ITglPD4YhDU8D7TDDR1Xj1 8+AAnRRP4EeToktKDMJUG2B+uEE+Xnxk =6Bso -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

12:10

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-26 12:43, jdd wrote:

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Le 26/04/2010 12:35, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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Which tools?

Qt Linguist, for example, kbabel (http://freshmeat.net/projects/kbabel/), and one of the traduc member is the author of an other (omegat http://www.omegat.org/fr/omegat.html)

kbabel for man pages? I've never used it for that. It can not even open man.1, how on earth are you using it? It is impossible unless upstream they create the po files somehow. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvVgtEACgkQU92UU+smfQX1dgCbBmX7l9y/ndXMqw88Du/Qig6G kH0An37Bc0+e0MYXZGWevHqa8GLTh6gP =aUat -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd

12:38

Le 26/04/2010 14:10, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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kbabel for man pages? I've never used it for that. It can not even open man.1, how on earth are you using it? It is impossible unless upstream they create the po files somehow.

I'm not personnally involved in translating man pages. Most being very small, I beg they are translated with vi, but I will ask and report here jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Juergen Weigert

12:46

On Apr 26, 10 14:10:46 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2010-04-26 12:57, Juergen Weigert wrote:

...
On Apr 26, 10 12:35:10 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
...
Which tools?

Serna is supposed to be an XML editor with wysywig qualities. Haven't used it though. http://www.syntext.com/downloads/serna/

Closed source?

No. It's open source, I understand ... http://forum.syntext.com/syntext-serna-xml-editor/serna-open-source-discussi... No idea how to directly work with man.1 files. Serna may be most helpful with docbook. sigh, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Rueckert

13:09

On 2010-04-26 14:46:06 +0200, Juergen Weigert wrote:

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On Apr 26, 10 14:10:46 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2010-04-26 12:57, Juergen Weigert wrote:

...
On Apr 26, 10 12:35:10 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
...
Which tools?

Serna is supposed to be an XML editor with wysywig qualities. Haven't used it though. http://www.syntext.com/downloads/serna/

Closed source?

No. It's open source, I understand ... http://forum.syntext.com/syntext-serna-xml-editor/serna-open-source-discussi...

No idea how to directly work with man.1 files. Serna may be most helpful with docbook.

Talk to Susanne Oberhauser about it. IIRC she was involved in opensourcing it. darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

13:15

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-26 14:38, jdd wrote:

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Le 26/04/2010 14:10, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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I'm not personnally involved in translating man pages. Most being very small, I beg they are translated with vi, but I will ask and report here

Thanks. The tool I have used till now, manedit, doesn't build in x64. I'd like something similar or better... but there is nothing. :-( - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvVkgwACgkQU92UU+smfQXubgCeJcMCjlQVrUxbx2iIQR1+WiVf wJIAmwUAYpEksJc+35SNt91VgWc0qloa =93Y2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd

13:50

Le 26/04/2010 12:11, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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One of the problems is that there is no modern tool for doing the job. It is done in plain text with arcane tokens, and the result is "compiled" later. Fine for devs, bad for plain, poor translators.

talking with the omegat developper, omegat can open the man pages if you add ".txt" at the end. Thay are openned as plain text, but omegat can help translating sentence by sentence, managing dictionaries and so on. I see also on debian a po4a utility that can translate mlost things to/from po files http://people.debian.org/~jfs/debconf6/html/x790.html jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Juergen Weigert

16:07

On Apr 26, 10 15:15:56 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2010-04-26 14:38, jdd wrote:

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Le 26/04/2010 14:10, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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I'm not personnally involved in translating man pages. Most being very small, I beg they are translated with vi, but I will ask and report here

Thanks.

The tool I have used till now, manedit, doesn't build in x64. I'd like something similar or better... but there is nothing. :-(

I established a new project home:jnweiger:doc manedit is there, po4a too. Freshly compiled, untested. Let me know if you can make any use of these... cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

18:43

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Man pages are a pain to translate, and many translations are obsolete. Same, or worse, info pages.

One of the problems is that there is no modern tool for doing the job. It is done in plain text with arcane tokens, and the result is "compiled" later. Fine for devs, bad for plain, poor translators.

I think there is a plethora of tools "out there" that will let you write in e.g. SGML, and produce almost any kind of outpout, including a man page. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

19:30

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-26 15:50, jdd wrote:

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Le 26/04/2010 12:11, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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One of the problems is that there is no modern tool for doing the job. It is done in plain text with arcane tokens, and the result is "compiled" later. Fine for devs, bad for plain, poor translators.

talking with the omegat developper, omegat can open the man pages if you add ".txt" at the end. Thay are openned as plain text, but omegat can help translating sentence by sentence, managing dictionaries and so on.

Well, almost any editor can do that. For example, joe and mcedit can; so can vi and emacs. All of at least them understand the syntax and use syntax colour. But that is a... "galimatías", a gobbledygook if you prefer. Look: .pc .TH MAN 1 "2008-05-05" "2.5.2" "Manual pager utils" .SH NAME man \- an interface to the on-line reference manuals .SH SYNOPSIS .\" The general command line .B man .RB [\| \-c \||\| \-w \||\| \-tZ \|] .RB [\| \-H \|\c .RI [\| browser \|]\|] .RB [\| \-T \|\c .RI [\| device \|]\|] .RB [\| \-X \|\c .RI [\| dpi \|]\|] .RB [\| \-adhu7V \|] .RB [\| \-i \||\| \-I \|] .RB [\| \-m .IR system \|[\|,.\|.\|.\|]\|] .RB [\| \-L .IR locale \|] .RB [\| \-p .IR string \|] .... .\" The apropos command line .br .B man .B \-k .RI [\| apropos .IR options \|] .I regexp \&.\|.\|. .\" The whatis command line .br .B man .B \-f .RI [\| whatis .IR options \|] .I page \&.\|.\|. .SH DESCRIPTION .B man is the system's manual pager. Each .I page argument given to .B man is normally the name of a program, utility or function. The .I manual page associated with each of these arguments is then found and displayed. A .IR section , if provided, will direct .B man to look only in that .I section of the manual. The default action is to search in all of the available .IR sections , following a pre-defined order and to show only the first .I page found, even if .I page exists in several .IR sections . The table below shows the .I section numbers of the manual followed by the types of pages they contain. That's very difficult to edit and translate.

...

I see also on debian a po4a utility that can translate mlost things to/from po files

http://people.debian.org/~jfs/debconf6/html/x790.html

Nice tool, but it has to be setup by the devs of each project. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvV6dcACgkQU92UU+smfQUHJACdGRyXGk1IFelGfu9E4yWs9c9/ UvwAn2RwI0Qwkswf9uNtUoCSNdoS4egj =bvl2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

20:17

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-26 20:43, Per Jessen wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Man pages are a pain to translate, and many translations are obsolete. Same, or worse, info pages.

One of the problems is that there is no modern tool for doing the job. It is done in plain text with arcane tokens, and the result is "compiled" later. Fine for devs, bad for plain, poor translators.

I think there is a plethora of tools "out there" that will let you write in e.g. SGML, and produce almost any kind of outpout, including a man page.

In a WYSIWYG, modern, way? Like OpenOffice? With a working example? No, there is none. I have tried a lot of them. Many of them require that I type cryptic tokens if I start a summary, another for bold, all mixed with the text. No, sorry, no way. I'm not going to learn all that gobbledegook, I'm too old a dog for learning difficult new tricks. And when they look nice, they don't have a working example of a manpage I can use. Right now I'm testing "serna", it appears to be the kind I want, but even with the docbook example opened I fail to see how to produce a man page. I see the package includes "/opt/serna-free-4.2/xml/stylesheets/docbook-xsl-1.68.1/manpages", with no help, a README that points to " http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=468779&group_id=21935&atid=373749", with comments dated 2001 asking for help and no reply. The mailing lists So, I have absolutely no idea how to create a manpage with serna (or any other docbook editor), or worse, open an existing one and translate it. :-( Feel free to reply in the opensuse list if you know how to do that. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvV9MwACgkQU92UU+smfQVRJQCgjrO7ptr9Fb2r0I331dgHcbUj FYMAnRJJorBXaxx7V3fp9O5g+TqPnqRk =pMP6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

20:19

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-26 15:09, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

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On 2010-04-26 14:46:06 +0200, Juergen Weigert wrote:

...

...
...
...
...
Which tools?

Serna is supposed to be an XML editor with wysywig qualities. Haven't used it though. http://www.syntext.com/downloads/serna/

Closed source?

No. It's open source, I understand ... http://forum.syntext.com/syntext-serna-xml-editor/serna-open-source-discussi...

No idea how to directly work with man.1 files. Serna may be most helpful with docbook.

Talk to Susanne Oberhauser about it. IIRC she was involved in opensourcing it.

Well, I have installed "serna-free-4.2-4.2.0-20091009.i686.rpm". It hasn't put any icon I can click to start it, there is nothing in /bin or /usr/bin, so I don't even know how to start it. The "thing" installs the starting script in "/opt/serna-free-4.2/bin/serna.sh". Yagh! And there is no manpage example. (If anyone replies to this one, please do so on the opensuse list, this is getting technical.) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvV9VUACgkQU92UU+smfQVpRACfahHOJNt8Nq9AtRRw5QRinZSH k2sAnAwxmUKfuj3xmB3N0r179WkT6PPL =FFlm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

27 Apr 27 Apr

08:26

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2010-04-26 20:43, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Man pages are a pain to translate, and many translations are obsolete. Same, or worse, info pages.

One of the problems is that there is no modern tool for doing the job. It is done in plain text with arcane tokens, and the result is "compiled" later. Fine for devs, bad for plain, poor translators.

I think there is a plethora of tools "out there" that will let you write in e.g. SGML, and produce almost any kind of outpout, including a man page.

In a WYSIWYG, modern, way? Like OpenOffice? With a working example? No, there is none. I have tried a lot of them.

I would have to spend some time googling, but I _know_ I have come across projects which had man pages written in SGML or XML - during the build, output was produced as man-pages, or html or pdf etc. There is no reason why the same could not be written in ooxml (or whatever it is openoffice uses) and be converted in the same way. The formatting elements used in man pages are, like you say, quite simple. The more I think about this, the more I am convinced someone has already done it - look, an openoffice document is nothing but an XML-document with some extra bits (you just unzip the document). An XML-document is very easily turned into (using an XSL stylesheet) suitably formatted input for producing man-pages (isn't that done with nroff ?). /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

08:28

Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Am Montag 26 April 2010 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...
Any kind dev around can provide us with a nice, easy to use, tool? O:-)

(I ask in this list because I worry that Linux, in general, doesn't seem to be very interested in producing translated manuals. Are we? ;-) )

The KDE project - and many others - use docbook to write the man pages and then use XSLT to produce groff. And for docbook you have the tools.

That's it, exactly what I was thinking of. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer

09:03

On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Well, I have installed "serna-free-4.2-4.2.0-20091009.i686.rpm". It hasn't put any icon I can click to start it, there is nothing in /bin or /usr/bin, so I don't even know how to start it.

One way to view the files an RPM is installing is using the -ql option of rpm, that is rpm -ql serna-free if you alread have installed it, or rpm -ql -p serna-free-4.2-4.2.0-20091009.i686.rpm if you want to have a look just based on the RPM file. As you noticed, executables then tend to be in subdirectories called bin, so something like rpm -ql serna-free | grep /bin/ might help. Gerald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Juergen Weigert

09:47

On Apr 27, 10 11:03:26 +0200, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

...

On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Well, I have installed "serna-free-4.2-4.2.0-20091009.i686.rpm". It hasn't put any icon I can click to start it, there is nothing in /bin or /usr/bin, so I don't even know how to start it.

One way to view the files an RPM is installing is using the -ql option of rpm, that is

rpm -ql serna-free | grep /bin/

Which is helpful for the technically inclined, but not for the end user. For a perfect user experience (in an ideal world), installing a package foo should make 'something' of the name foo appear in the system. This something could be - a desktop icon, - a menu entry, - something the desktop search can find, or - (at least!) a command on the command line. Just my humble opinion, ignoring any feasability. I checked out serna yesterday to see, if a desktop file could be easily added. Just to find out, that serna does not even compile on 11.2 and up. cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "You are trying to use packages from project 'openSUSE:11.2'. Note that malicious packages can compromise your system." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Dominique Leuenberger

10:04

...

...
...
On 4/27/2010 at 11:47, Juergen Weigert wrote: rpm -ql serna-free | grep /bin/

Which is helpful for the technically inclined, but not for the end user.

For a perfect user experience (in an ideal world), installing a package foo should make 'something' of the name foo appear in the system. This something could be - a desktop icon, - a menu entry, - something the desktop search can find, or - (at least!) a command on the command line.

Just my humble opinion, ignoring any feasability.

I checked out serna yesterday to see, if a desktop file could be easily added. Just to find out, that serna does not even compile on 11.2 and up.

Err, sure, but: what would a package like ufoai-maps give you in the menu? it is, as the package tells us, simply the maps package for the game ufoai: the maps are split out of the main package just to reduce the amount of install time for the users, coz the games repo sees of course recompiles of it's binary packages... something we can easily avoid on a -data package. But those packages just can't provide anything of what you'd expect them to do.. maybe cnf could be extended to: - check for command (it does) - Check for package name => if found, give the user some info what he could do (like rpm -ql <package> to list it's content, rpm -qi <package> to show it's information and so on). But then: a user that won't understand the content of the package still will not be helped in this case... We just gap a bridge for the technical user that is not willing to read man pages. for any package that provides an application, I agree: if it's an X-app there has to be a .desktop file (or an argument why it would not be needed). At least on Factory / contrib we could enforce the rule to reject it if not provided (which I'm not sure if it's done, but I could easily imagine it is). Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Juergen Weigert

11:18

On Apr 27, 10 12:04:39 +0200, Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

...
For a perfect user experience (in an ideal world), installing a package foo should make 'something' of the name foo appear in the system. This something could be - a desktop icon, - a menu entry, - something the desktop search can find, or - (at least!) a command on the command line.

Just my humble opinion, ignoring any feasability.

Err, sure, but: what would a package like ufoai-maps give you in the menu?

Nothing. The list above is 'or', not 'and'. It should be sufficient, if the deskop search engine would be able to respond with, "yes, we have ufoai-maps installed, it provides no desktop apps, no commandline apps, but adds to or is required by package 'ufoai', see there."

...

maybe cnf could be extended to: - check for command (it does) - Check for package name => if found, give the user some info what he could do (like rpm -ql <package> to list it's content, rpm -qi <package> to show it's information and so on).

But then: a user that won't understand the content of the package still will not be helped in this case... We just gap a bridge for the technical user that is not willing to read man pages.

Bridging that gap is already a good thing. A user may not want to understand package contents at all, but some introspection like my example above should also be helpful.

...

for any package that provides an application, I agree: if it's an X-app there has to be a .desktop file (or an argument why it would not be needed). At least on Factory / contrib we could enforce the rule to reject it if not provided (which I'm not sure if it's done, but I could easily imagine it is).

Originally I thought writing .desktop files was pure horror, and can only be done by Adrian. But reading http://en.opensuse.org/Packaging/SUSE_Package_Conventions/Desktop_Menu motivated me to try it myself :-) ... thanks, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "You are trying to use packages from project 'openSUSE:11.2'. Note that malicious packages can compromise your system." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

20:55

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-27 11:47, Juergen Weigert wrote:

...

Which is helpful for the technically inclined, but not for the end user.

For a perfect user experience (in an ideal world), installing a package foo should make 'something' of the name foo appear in the system. This something could be - a desktop icon, - a menu entry, - something the desktop search can find, or - (at least!) a command on the command line.

Just my humble opinion, ignoring any feasability.

That's my opinion, too.

...

I checked out serna yesterday to see, if a desktop file could be easily added. Just to find out, that serna does not even compile on 11.2 and up.

Yagh. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvXTzYACgkQU92UU+smfQWcGACfRbEmJbqpQuHEizIxIVkej4FP hT8An0DiG7NWNIgg0eQN6VUqn3rnrvnc =YM2y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

21:00

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-27 10:28, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Stephan Kulow wrote:

...
Am Montag 26 April 2010 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...
Any kind dev around can provide us with a nice, easy to use, tool? O:-)

(I ask in this list because I worry that Linux, in general, doesn't seem to be very interested in producing translated manuals. Are we? ;-) )

The KDE project - and many others - use docbook to write the man pages and then use XSLT to produce groff. And for docbook you have the tools.

That's it, exactly what I was thinking of.

Is there a quick tutorial for dummies, on how to create man pages that way? Or better, editing existing manpages, starting with the manfile.1 file? Using a WYSIWYG editor, like serna. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvXUG8ACgkQU92UU+smfQXo4QCfZk3ISohLTTRsw5rZQ1UMY+A8 wZoAniM03gts83WnWpuVjuLbrA3REckl =xgOf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

21:03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-27 10:26, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...
In a WYSIWYG, modern, way? Like OpenOffice? With a working example? No, there is none. I have tried a lot of them.

I would have to spend some time googling, but I _know_ I have come across projects which had man pages written in SGML or XML - during the build, output was produced as man-pages, or html or pdf etc. There is no reason why the same could not be written in ooxml (or whatever it is openoffice uses) and be converted in the same way. The formatting elements used in man pages are, like you say, quite simple.

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced someone has already done it - look, an openoffice document is nothing but an XML-document with some extra bits (you just unzip the document). An XML-document is very easily turned into (using an XSL stylesheet) suitably formatted input for producing man-pages (isn't that done with nroff ?).

Actually, I have tried that. I found a process with OOo (I don't remember the details), but I didn't succeed. I should have notes of what I found somewhere. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvXUToACgkQU92UU+smfQUu3ACglMkFAzeP2mdZrDpGAXN+KeTK GkMAn08HZbVBpLwtQn0DiN7Uuc27TDbQ =AV0R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

21:04

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-27 11:03, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

...

On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
Well, I have installed "serna-free-4.2-4.2.0-20091009.i686.rpm". It hasn't put any icon I can click to start it, there is nothing in /bin or /usr/bin, so I don't even know how to start it.

One way to view the files an RPM is installing is using the -ql option of rpm, that is

rpm -ql serna-free

if you alread have installed it, or

rpm -ql -p serna-free-4.2-4.2.0-20091009.i686.rpm

if you want to have a look just based on the RPM file.

As you noticed, executables then tend to be in subdirectories called bin, so something like

rpm -ql serna-free | grep /bin/

might help.

Very true... but in this case it did not. You see, the run script is installed by the postinstall script of the rpm, so it is nowhere to be found in the list of installed files. And it is not in the path, it is: "/opt/serna-free-4.2/bin/serna.sh". - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvXUV8ACgkQU92UU+smfQWkQACeLG5KYcprT4rUrILwRAO3DeS1 KsIAnj2hkD+TPDOjUpoX4Dlu5TRNWnM8 =wv+e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

28 Apr 28 Apr

05:41

Le lundi 26 avril 2010, à 12:11 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

Hi,

Man pages are a pain to translate, and many translations are obsolete. Same, or worse, info pages.

One of the problems is that there is no modern tool for doing the job. It is done in plain text with arcane tokens, and the result is "compiled" later. Fine for devs, bad for plain, poor translators.

A GUI would be nice. It would be perfect if LyX could produce them, but I have been unable to succeed, so far. Manedit is such a tool (http://freshmeat.net/projects/manedit/), but last time I looked it did not support UTF-8, it is nowhere to be found in the buildservice, and fails to compile in 64 bits.

Any kind dev around can provide us with a nice, easy to use, tool? O:-)

Why not use po4a (http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/) and then use your usual tool to translate a po file? (also, debian has many man pages translated already -- might be something we could use) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

08:30

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2010-04-26 18:07, Juergen Weigert wrote:

...

On Apr 26, 10 15:15:56 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...
The tool I have used till now, manedit, doesn't build in x64. I'd like something similar or better... but there is nothing. :-(

I established a new project home:jnweiger:doc manedit is there, po4a too. Freshly compiled, untested. Let me know if you can make any use of these...

Thanks! I didn't notice your message till now. Yes, manedit runs, which will allow me at least to update the few manpages I translate, for the moment. Phillipp says that as it is based on gtk1 it will not be possible to compile for factory as gtk-devel is or will be dropped, so I will have to find something else soon, or keep 11.2 as a vmware guest for the (opensource) abandonware I still use. I'm curious. Where did you got the two patches you added? Did you create them from scratch, are they somewhere to be found for people to use...? :-? The question remains, the one that made me ask in this list, is what can be done to increase the number of manual pages translated, and to keep them updated? For example, there are 11574 English man pages in my 11.2 installation, and only 91 are translated to Spanish (±7 of those are mine), 42 to German, 42 + 9 + 9 to French... Info pages: none. This is pathetic. I believe one of the reasons is that there are no friendly tools (that's my excuse). Other reasons... I have no idea. Lack of interest? Why? You see, you can only send English speaking users to RTFM (flipping!) :-P - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkvX8hcACgkQja8UbcUWM1ziTAD+M9/HeN62Gg4qEqwQeuEc/kiJ AebzNztn6OFkU19aSs8A/0yfCSuUw6UxaypabMo1l4Z3pEMTiHpy7DCVamAco78l =4lMM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Peter Linnell

14:01

On 4/26/10 6:07 PM, Juergen Weigert wrote:

...

On Apr 26, 10 15:15:56 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2010-04-26 14:38, jdd wrote:

...
Le 26/04/2010 14:10, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...
I'm not personnally involved in translating man pages. Most being very small, I beg they are translated with vi, but I will ask and report here

Thanks.

The tool I have used till now, manedit, doesn't build in x64. I'd like something similar or better... but there is nothing. :-(

I established a new project home:jnweiger:doc manedit is there, po4a too. Freshly compiled, untested. Let me know if you can make any use of these...

cheers, JW-

Thanks to Juergen for fixing up mandedit, which has been neglected in my home project for a while. I can say manedit despite being an old gtk1 app is quite usable. I have used it for editing the Scribus man pages, which are multi-lingual as well. And it does exist in 64bits thanks to a patch I pinched from Mandriva. Perhaps, we could push this into Contrib if folks are interested and they find it useful. Cheers, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Juergen Weigert

14:28

On Apr 28, 10 10:30:15 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I'm curious. Where did you got the two patches you added? Did you create them from scratch, are they somewhere to be found for people to use...? :-?

I created disk.cpp.strncat.patch to fix a few buffer overflow errors. No idea where manedit-0.6.1.lib64.patch comes from. Saw it in one of the home directories. The patches and specfile are freely available from https://build.opensuse.org/stage/package/files?package=ManEdit&project=home%3Ajnweiger%3Adoc cheers, JW- -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de back to ascii! __/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 __/ (____/ /\ (/) | _____________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "You are trying to use packages from project 'openSUSE:11.2'. Note that malicious packages can compromise your system." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd

14:43

Le 28/04/2010 10:30, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

The question remains, the one that made me ask in this list, is what can be done to increase the number of manual pages translated, and to keep them updated?

manual pages are specific to each application. I know only of kernel manual pages held by the LDP (http://tldp.org/manpages/man.html). Some time ago There where a discussion on LDP mailing about hosting the Debian man pages, I will investigate to know if they are somewhere here. As LDP coordinator I'm ready to host a centralized man page repository. Translating these things for each distro is ridiculous :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-support-the-Linux-Documentation-Project/3720... http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-fan-page-of-Claire-Dodin/106485119372062?v... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

15:36

New subject: [opensuse-project] .

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2010-04-28 16:43, jdd wrote:

...

Le 28/04/2010 10:30, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...
The question remains, the one that made me ask in this list, is what can be done to increase the number of manual pages translated, and to keep them updated?

manual pages are specific to each application. I know only of kernel manual pages held by the LDP (http://tldp.org/manpages/man.html).

Some time ago There where a discussion on LDP mailing about hosting the Debian man pages, I will investigate to know if they are somewhere here.

It will be interesting.

...

As LDP coordinator I'm ready to host a centralized man page repository. Translating these things for each distro is ridiculous :-)

Obviously! And contacting each upstream project is troublesome. There is a translation project for many of the base gnu applications, and although it doesn't seem very buoyant, it produces more results than man pages (I mean they don't translate man pages, and I don't know of an equivalent project that does). There is need for more translators, but that is not the only problem. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkvYVggACgkQja8UbcUWM1wtywD/XmGbwxso39kqmBEP/TVCjIhk uuHcYSrrpTF3+MKgkh0A/RM7voZx/iuqGzuXpmI1lrNNYBmzMhhSmuKf2sH324Ot =886k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

15:38

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2010-04-28 16:28, Juergen Weigert wrote:

...

On Apr 28, 10 10:30:15 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...
I'm curious. Where did you got the two patches you added? Did you create them from scratch, are they somewhere to be found for people to use...? :-?

I created disk.cpp.strncat.patch to fix a few buffer overflow errors. No idea where manedit-0.6.1.lib64.patch comes from. Saw it in one of the home directories.

The patches and specfile are freely available from https://build.opensuse.org/stage/package/files?package=ManEdit&project=home%3Ajnweiger%3Adoc

Ah, so you created one, and somebody else created another time ago. Just curious, what the process was. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkvYVnsACgkQja8UbcUWM1wCFQD+N9AM8rH6iLsZuIT2pzsUD6uu +wW+bZUKHbjZaBOeqS0A/22tR3z+Pt1XPfBoN4RV7YHeF4sU1yX0bWN/c39b84v+ =++8z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

30 Apr 30 Apr

20:18

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-04-28 16:01, Peter Linnell wrote:

...

Thanks to Juergen for fixing up mandedit, which has been neglected in my home project for a while.

I can say manedit despite being an old gtk1 app is quite usable. I have used it for editing the Scribus man pages, which are multi-lingual as well.

And it does exist in 64bits thanks to a patch I pinched from Mandriva.

Perhaps, we could push this into Contrib if folks are interested and they find it useful.

That would be nice, but there are very few translators interested in man pages, unfortunately. Developers use other tools. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkvbOy0ACgkQU92UU+smfQX5UwCeIpfrG7jaGhiQe2aMJnWGXHXg LasAn2xh8YvUMGZMAIJlRbODWLCV+xrB =II8l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R.
Dominique Leuenberger
Gerald Pfeifer
jdd
Juergen Weigert
Marcus Rueckert
Per Jessen
Peter Linnell
Stephan Kulow
Vincent Untz