-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2010-02-27 at 12:05 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:

Lørdag den 27. februar 2010 00:50:04 skrev Rajko M.:

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On Saturday 20 February 2010 07:45:28 Rajko M. wrote:

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Do we need them? If yes then we have to organize wiki translations in a different way then it is now. ...

According to interest in topic we don't need translations.

There are people interested in translation of the wiki, but maybe not in this list. You could ask in the wiki list, or the translation list. Me, I do translations, but not of the wiki.

What exactly is meant by translations. Does it imply localized wikis altogether?

I'd say localized wikis are very desirable - but them being always kept in sync clones of the English wiki is not important to me.

I know of some pages that exist in Spanish but not in English. I wrote some myself. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkuJKPMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UKUQCfdpjksL9wmd5V22ndIEJ+7VLA ERoAniMYB98vmTnQLnL7J+zm+60K7Xp9 =XL8I -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Rajko, 2010/2/27 Rajko M. :

On Saturday 27 February 2010 08:15:13 Carlos E. R. wrote: ...

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There are people interested in translation of the wiki, but maybe not in this list. You could ask in the wiki list, or the translation list. Me, I do translations, but not of the wiki.

The question is what to do with translations as project policy, ditto this mail list. The same question was asked on wiki ML and there was no answer, or there was, but with slight misunderstanding about the goal of the question.

The goal is not only to cleanup the wiki by trowing away translated articles, but how to keep articles somewhere.

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. If you mean to get rid of un-maintained translated (to whatever language) articles IN the english wiki: Certainly go for it! BUT I hope you don't mean to get rid of localized wikis all together.

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I know of some pages that exist in Spanish but not in English. I wrote some myself.

Which can be OK if they are Spanish speaking areas specific, but if they are technical articles then we have a problem if they are not translated back to English and any other language wiki. Translation process that assumes that translation is one way street from English to some other language has a serious flaw.

+1. While doing the German Wiki Reviewing, we encouraged German Reviewers to push German content not available in the English instance into it. Thus I'm actually working hard on a two way street translating from English to German and the other way around atm. Getting rid of language wikis (I'm pretty sure that's not your desire) is a absolute no-go. Btw, I second what Henne said in response to this email previously. Best, R

I remember writing article about Midnight Commander, based on article in the German wiki, and I'm sure there is more examples where English wiki lacks text present in other languages.

So, that is one of problems that must be addressed.

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-- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko, 2010/3/4 Rajko M. :

On Tuesday 02 March 2010 08:03:07 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:

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Rajko,

2010/2/27 Rajko M. :

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On Saturday 27 February 2010 08:15:13 Carlos E. R. wrote: ...

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There are people interested in translation of the wiki, but maybe not in this list. You could ask in the wiki list, or the translation list. Me, I do translations, but not of the wiki.

The question is what to do with translations as project policy, ditto this mail list. The same question was asked on wiki ML and there was no answer, or there was, but with slight misunderstanding about the goal of the question.

The goal is not only to cleanup the wiki by trowing away translated articles, but how to keep articles somewhere.

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. If you mean to get rid of un-maintained translated (to whatever language) articles IN the english wiki: Certainly go for it! BUT I hope you don't mean to get rid of localized wikis all together.

I have no influence on localized wikis, although when you touched topic, we can get rid of all that are not touched for some time. For me limit should be the same as distro lifetime plus 2 months. In other words, if maintainer can't update wiki to show at least one of supported versions, put note on the main page wait for 2 months and then just turn the switch off. Note that in "Translation guide", or some article that will exist only to collect such info, as reference for future translators and be over with. With current release cycle that will give 26 moths other interested to jump in and update wiki.

That makes perfect sense +1

The talk was about translation as a way to acquire new market, and the begin is usually that someone translates only few key articles to make download and installation easy to people from his country. I would like to have dedicated wiki for such articles with simple organization where each language has portal and category, so that we can remove them from en.o.o.

also +1 here. My full support to cleanup translation ruins in en.o.o

Unmaintained article will get Outdated article tag with note when it will be deleted. What was mentioned about unmaintained wikis that should be valid for articles. When article is about not supported version then it is marked as such and after 2 months is removed.

also +1 .. go for it.

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... Translation process that assumes that translation is one way street from English to some other language has a serious flaw.

+1. While doing the German Wiki Reviewing, we encouraged German Reviewers to push German content not available in the English instance into it. ...

It is nice to have agreement on something :)

Actually I don't have the feeling to be in general disagreement with you. You have? Best, R

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Best, R

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-- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko, 2010/3/5 Rajko M. :

On Thursday 04 March 2010 07:56:54 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:

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It is nice to have agreement on something :)

Actually I don't have the feeling to be in general disagreement with you. You have?

It is about translations :)

So we have agreement on terms for creation and removal of language wikis  and articles.

That will be written on wiki.o.o, but current procedure should be put on hold until Henne's agrees on creation of languages.opensuse.org so that we can move currently active translations there and write instructions.

Just to understand this better, you'd like to move language wikis like de.o.o/fr.o.o and so on to languages.o.o? Or did I get you wrong here? May you please explain this a bit better, i.e. how the structure should look like etc? Thanks in advance.

Next will be to advertise on every corner that there is place for initial translations, that will be also place for creation of community in particular language, with final goal to create language wiki, when community engagement in the project is at steady and satisfactory level.

Later in cooperation with translators we can develop translation process details making entry level as low as possible.

There is one more thing to think about, to see how we can use Google translations as a seed for articles that are not yet translated in a classic way. I was pleased with initial quality of translations and additional tools that Google offers to improve automatically generated one. All that with Croatian language that is not one of major languages and I did not expect usable results, but I was wrong.

It is service that benefits both, translators and Google.

Actually I have another feeling about Google translate. We tried this a year ago for forums.o.o with rather unpleasing results. Also, as a German native speaker, I occasionally translate whole pages, e.g. in Italian to German/English and the results are most of the time "readable" at best. I mean you understand the general meaning and let's say 70% of the content is at a 80% acceptable language skills-level but the rest of it isn't good and just for "guessing" and thus not acceptable for tutorial-style documentation purposes. Certainly we can test this but IMO Google translate cannot substitute human input. I fear that translations would be perceived "semi-professional" at best from a native speaker of a certain language. As it seems, Translations from English to a certain language and back have the "best" quality here, Translation from e.g. German to Italian are even worse. That my experience from the forums project and my very personal ones as a non-native speaker of most languages available on planet earth :) Best, R

-- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rajko, 2010/3/6 Rajko M. :

On Friday 05 March 2010 07:00:02 Rupert Horstkötter wrote: ...

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2010/3/5 Rajko M. :

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That will be written on wiki.o.o, but current procedure should be put on hold until Henne's agrees on creation of languages.opensuse.org so that we can move currently active translations there and write instructions.

Just to understand this better, you'd like to move language wikis like de.o.o/fr.o.o and so on to languages.o.o? Or did I get you wrong here? May you please explain this a bit better, i.e. how the structure should look like etc? Thanks in advance.

No, those that have active wikis are already at final stage, they have own wiki and they don't need languages.o.o.

The languages.o.o should serve as place where some active members of openSUSE can create communities in their languages, instead of fighting for place under the Sun in en.o.o.

Ah, now I understand this whole through. Yes, this sounds like a much better approach than the current "fighting for place under the Sun in en.o.o" :-) Thanks for clarifying this. I haven't understood your differentiation between those languages that have their own wiki and those "startups", but now that makes perfect sense. What would we need to get started here? I guess a separate server/domain can be handled by ... Henne? Frank? Do you take care of this (coming in touch) by yourself?

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It is service that benefits both, translators and Google.

Actually I have another feeling about Google translate. We tried this a year ago for forums.o.o with rather unpleasing results.

Not automatically per default, absolutely not.

I mentioned ability to use other Google tool:   http://translate.google.com/support/toolkit/ that is accessible from page with automatic translations.

It is a nice way to translate group of pages with other people. The tool is designed for collaboration, but I haven't tested it translating anything with others.

Ok, I see. Actually I wasn't aware of this particular opportunity yet.

For the rest I agree with your discussion, but having initial translation that translator don't have to correct in every sentence made good impression on me and I really think that we should seriously consider how to incorporate that in translation efforts.

+1. Question is HOW to introduce it and especially HOW to advertise the use of it properly in order to avoid "encouraging" people to use such translators as their tool of choice to do the work and then leave it as is.

BTW, localization effort should look there as well.

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I fear that translations would be perceived "semi-professional" at best from a native speaker of a certain language. As it seems, Translations from English to a certain language and back have the "best" quality here, Translation from e.g. German to Italian are even worse. That my experience from the forums project and my very personal ones as a non-native speaker of most languages available on planet earth :)

I know that it is not perfect, but it is usable, specially combined with human help to bring translation in shape :)

That's what I actually tried to raise your attention upon. Combining them may lead to sufficient results. We just need to avoid a de-facto "replacing approach" taken by translators IMO and as said above, we need to think about HOW to advertise such tools' usage to translators. Best, R

http://translate.google.com/support/toolkit/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=147859 I understand as if you use Global shared memory then you improve all translations. On the other hand if you create topic related memory, one for Linux and also one openSUSE, then after some time you should have easy time translating pages.

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Best, R

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-- Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Community Assistant http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter Email: rhorstkoetter@opensuse.org Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter@googlemail.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 04 March 2010 16:04:26 Carlos E. R. wrote:

Removing pages simply because they are not updated maybe unfair, you should ask the authors of each page.

It is not that much that article is not updated, but that it talks about procedure or software that is no more in use, or it is talking about problems that are already solved in a newer version. First will grant removal of whole article, but second only removal of text about problem that is solved and it will require article tag that will request article update.

And as to translating those to English... as I say, I don't translate the wiki, in neither direction O:-)

You can always ask for assistance O:-) -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 05 March 2010 08:40:31 Carlos E. R. wrote:

You should contact the authors in any case. I assume that the names and emails are logged somewhere.

Wiki ID (as rajko_m for me) yes in history of every article, but emails are hidden if setup at all. It is user option to use email notifications, so if user don't know how to enable that, or don't want them, then all that is left to contact author is his User_talk:<wiki ID> page.

As to software not in use, no, some of us we still use kbabel for translations (the replacement is not finished).

My comment on outdated or obsolete software wasn't about any particular title, including kbabel. It is simply about a lot of articles that still exist about old software versions, offering advices that are not applicable to the new version, or about software that is no more in distribution as upstream doesn't develop it. That problems are more present on language wikis then on en.o.o, but it is thing that we should think about. One bot that will parse language wikis, remember article creation time, link to en.o.o (or other wiki) then compare last revision date to en.o.o (or other wiki), can help by issuing warning that article is out of date. For instance by adding links to translation and original to the list of pages to review. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 27 February 2010 05:05:41 Martin Schlander wrote:

What exactly is meant by translations. Does it imply localized wikis altogether?

Any translated wiki article that can help spread the word about openSUSE to non English speaking people. English is among programmers almost precondition to learn anything and work, there is much more those that don't know it and the only way to reach them is their native language. We are attempting to clean en.o.o and partial translations are one of the problems. They are useful for openSUSE, but they should have own home server, not to be interspersed with articles in English. You can't see similar thing in any other language wiki. Ditto my questions in a first post.

I'd say localized wikis are very desirable - but them being always kept in sync clones of the English wiki is not important to me.

It is not important for every article, but we never established rules how to deal with it. The biggest problem for translators is Welcome page that contains parts that are changing from time to time, but having translated announcement and not related text is the same as start road construction that leads nowhere. It makes no sense. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 01 March 2010 07:30:06 Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hi,

On 02/20/2010 02:45 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

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Do we need them?

Some of them yes.

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If yes then we have to organize wiki translations in a different way then it is now.

True.

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Recently when we started with en.opensuse.org (en.o.o) reorganization there was few questions to decide what to do. One of them is what we are going to do with few translations of some wiki pages, but not enough to grant own wiki. I asked what we going to do with those articles.

Get rid of them

It is easy with outdated stuff. I'll put in the wiki what I mentioned in another, answer to the Rupert.

and while were at it get rid of the assumption that English somehow is the "master" language.

I has to be written and advertised, so that everyone knows.

With this we can get rid of the whole process and grant language wiki's on the one requirement that all the other attempts fail on: openSUSE people that care for it. We have a couple of successful language wikis (german and french mostly) and the only reason they are successful is because the people that work on them are active AND connected to the project. I think this should be THE prerequisite to start a language wiki, not some technicalities. Once "granted" the maintainers can do what they want with it.

Agree on both requirements, activity and connection to the project. First is similar to already written requirement that wiki can be created only for group of translators that can keep wiki updated. One man show is no go. Second requirement to have translators active and connected to the project is new and crucial. Those that have problem to talk to the rest of the project for whatever reason really can't maintain wiki. Although we should be careful as each of language wikis started with one diligent translator, including those that can be considered successful. German was exception, but that wiki is exceptional in every respect.

Henne

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