20 Feb
2010
20 Feb
'10
2:45 p.m.
Do we need them?
If yes then we have to organize wiki translations in a different way then it
is now.
Recently when we started with en.opensuse.org (en.o.o) reorganization there
was few questions to decide what to do. One of them is what we are going to do
with few translations of some wiki pages, but not enough to grant own wiki.
I asked what we going to do with those articles.
The question is coming up for a long time:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2006-01/msg00018.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2007-05/msg00082.html
and the most recent:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2010-01/msg00070.html
and also in related discussions as one of the questions.
Currently translations are organized in a simple way of:
- translate few mandatory pages
- request own wiki
- continue translations there
Main page for translations is:
http://en.opensuse.org/Translations
Such wiki translation concept is set by instructions how to translate:
http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Wiki_Translation_Guidelines
It assumes implicitly:
1) there is enough people behind translation to keep language project running
2) there is enough skills in every single person that wants to translate
(translator) to understand structure of our en.o.o articles and translate
articles appropriately
3) en.o.o is source and language wiki is only translation and contributors
there will not add valuable content that should be translated the other way
around
4) every translator will use en.o.o as temporary storage for translations
until there is enough articles to grant own wiki
6) every translator is friendly guy that will not misuse translation for his
own purposes
Current wiki translation concept does not cover people willing to contribute:
1) but don't have time to translate all mandatory pages
2) but don't have skills to dive in our wiki article structure which is now
quite complex
3) want to translate only download and install sections, or any other random
article that they find interesting (for instance they translated article for
themselves)
4) translations from another language to native language
5) translations from random language to English, or any other language
(original content in language wiki)
6) translator and translation check to keep content acceptable
The wiki translation concept failed on few language wikis.
Wiki servers are listed on http://en.opensuse.org/Translations .
Discussion about and listings of inactive servers can be found in opensuse-
wiki archives. One article is here:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2009-06/msg00007.html
Here is incomplete list of translations that live in en.o.o:
http://en.opensuse.org/Category:Translations
To make it complete, I would have to go trough all pages starting with
language codes. usually 2 capital letters and dash.
Although, after some rework of translation instructions, it is much easier to
translate, as there is no more guesswork what extra pages, that are included
in required ones, one has to translate, there is still need to rethink whole
process and make it multilingual friendly.
The Bulgarian is good example why we need to rewrite rules, first guy that
translated few pages to BG used his knowledge of Russian. How do I know,
because guy asked me can he do that. The vlinux1 is currently active, but as I
can see he doesn't understand either wiki tools, or current instructions how
to translate.
If there would be language independent, multilingual, server I bet that there
will be more people that will translate from English, or some other language
that they know to their native, but then we would have to translate
translation instructions and keep them on currently active language wikis.
About the server name:
babel.opensuse.org is fancy name, but fancy names tend to be hard to guess,
so multilingual.opensuse.org should be better choice. If nothing, because word
is based on Latin language and needs no translation for many languages.
None of those that I can use with various levels of understanding (hr, rs, en,
de, ru, mk, sl, bg, etc) will have problem with word multilingual as they use
multi as a prefix to other words and word lingua is either part of the
language or well known from other instance of its use.
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27 Feb
27 Feb
12:50 a.m.
On Saturday 20 February 2010 07:45:28 Rajko M. wrote:
Do we need them?
If yes then we have to organize wiki translations in a different way then
it is now.
...
According to interest in topic we don't need translations.
I guess the fair play dictates to tell that to guy that is translating pages
to Bulgarian, and to prevent anyone else to waste his time, I have to remove
any reference to wiki translations from the wikies.
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12:05 p.m.
Lørdag den 27. februar 2010 00:50:04 skrev Rajko M.:
On Saturday 20 February 2010 07:45:28 Rajko M. wrote:
What exactly is meant by translations. Does it imply localized wikis
altogether?
I'd say localized wikis are very desirable - but them being always kept in
sync clones of the English wiki is not important to me.
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Do we need them?
If yes then we have to organize wiki translations in a different way then
it is now.
...
According to interest in topic we don't need translations. 
3:15 p.m.
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On Saturday, 2010-02-27 at 12:05 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:
Lørdag den 27. februar 2010 00:50:04 skrev Rajko M.:
> On Saturday 20 February 2010 07:45:28 Rajko M. wrote:
>> Do we need them?
>> If yes then we have to organize wiki translations in a different way then
>> it is now.
> ...
>
> According to interest in topic we don't need translations.
There are people interested in translation of the wiki, but maybe not in
this list. You could ask in the wiki list, or the translation list. Me, I
do translations, but not of the wiki.
What exactly is meant by translations. Does it imply
localized wikis
altogether?
I'd say localized wikis are very desirable - but them being always kept in
sync clones of the English wiki is not important to me.
I know of some pages that exist in Spanish but not in English. I wrote
some myself.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
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4:36 p.m.
On Saturday 27 February 2010 08:15:13 Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
There are people interested in translation of the
wiki, but maybe not in
this list. You could ask in the wiki list, or the translation list. Me, I
do translations, but not of the wiki.
The question is what to do with translations as project policy, ditto this
mail list. The same question was asked on wiki ML and there was no answer, or
there was, but with slight misunderstanding about the goal of the question.
The goal is not only to cleanup the wiki by trowing away translated articles,
but how to keep articles somewhere.
I know of some pages that exist in Spanish but not in
English. I wrote
some myself.
Which can be OK if they are Spanish speaking areas specific, but if they are
technical articles then we have a problem if they are not translated back to
English and any other language wiki. Translation process that assumes that
translation is one way street from English to some other language has a
serious flaw.
I remember writing article about Midnight Commander, based on article in the
German wiki, and I'm sure there is more examples where English wiki lacks text
present in other languages.
So, that is one of problems that must be addressed.
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2 Mar
2 Mar
3:03 p.m.
Rajko,
2010/2/27 Rajko M. <rmatov101(a)charter.net>et>:
+1. While doing the German Wiki Reviewing, we encouraged German
Reviewers to push German content not available in the English instance
into it. Thus I'm actually working hard on a two way street
translating from English to German and the other way around atm.
Getting rid of language wikis (I'm pretty sure that's not your desire)
is a absolute no-go. Btw, I second what Henne said in response to this
email previously.
Best,
R
On Saturday 27 February 2010 08:15:13 Carlos E. R.
wrote:
...
I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. If you mean to get
rid of un-maintained translated (to whatever language) articles IN the
english wiki: Certainly go for it! BUT I hope you don't mean to get
rid of localized wikis all together.
There are people interested in translation of the
wiki, but maybe not in
this list. You could ask in the wiki list, or the translation list. Me, I
do translations, but not of the wiki.
The question is what to do with translations as project policy, ditto this
mail list. The same question was asked on wiki ML and there was no answer, or
there was, but with slight misunderstanding about the goal of the question.
The goal is not only to cleanup the wiki by trowing away translated articles,
but how to keep articles somewhere.
I know of some
pages that exist in Spanish but not in English. I wrote
some myself.
Which can be OK if they are Spanish speaking areas specific, but if they are
technical articles then we have a problem if they are not translated back to
English and any other language wiki. Translation process that assumes that
translation is one way street from English to some other language has a
serious flaw.
I remember writing article about Midnight Commander,
based on article in the
German wiki, and I'm sure there is more examples where English wiki lacks text
present in other languages.
So, that is one of problems that must be addressed.
--
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4 Mar
4 Mar
2:27 a.m.
On Tuesday 02 March 2010 08:03:07 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
It is nice to have agreement on something :)
Rajko,
2010/2/27 Rajko M. <rmatov101(a)charter.net>et>:
I have no influence on localized wikis, although when you touched topic, we
can get rid of all that are not touched for some time. For me limit should be
the same as distro lifetime plus 2 months. In other words, if maintainer can't
update wiki to show at least one of supported versions, put note on the main
page wait for 2 months and then just turn the switch off. Note that in
"Translation guide", or some article that will exist only to collect such
info, as reference for future translators and be over with. With current
release cycle that will give 26 moths other interested to jump in and update
wiki.
The talk was about translation as a way to acquire new market, and the begin
is usually that someone translates only few key articles to make download and
installation easy to people from his country. I would like to have dedicated
wiki for such articles with simple organization where each language has portal
and category, so that we can remove them from en.o.o.
Unmaintained article will get Outdated article tag with note when it will be
deleted. What was mentioned about unmaintained wikis that should be valid for
articles. When article is about not supported version then it is marked as
such and after 2 months is removed.
...
On Saturday 27 February 2010 08:15:13 Carlos E.
R. wrote:
...
I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. If you mean to get
rid of un-maintained translated (to whatever language) articles IN the
english wiki: Certainly go for it! BUT I hope you don't mean to get
rid of localized wikis all together. There are people interested in translation of the
wiki, but maybe not in
this list. You could ask in the wiki list, or the translation list. Me,
I do translations, but not of the wiki.
The question is what to do with translations as project policy, ditto
this mail list. The same question was asked on wiki ML and there was no
answer, or there was, but with slight misunderstanding about the goal of
the question.
The goal is not only to cleanup the wiki by trowing away translated
articles, but how to keep articles somewhere. ...
Translation process that
assumes that translation is one way street from English to some other
language has a serious flaw.
+1. While doing the German Wiki Reviewing, we encouraged German
Reviewers to push German content not available in the English instance
into it. ... Best,
R
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2:56 p.m.
Rajko,
2010/3/4 Rajko M. <rmatov101(a)charter.net>et>:
--
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openSUSE Board Member
openSUSE Community Assistant
http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter
Email: rhorstkoetter(a)opensuse.org
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On Tuesday 02 March 2010 08:03:07 Rupert Horstkötter
wrote:
That makes perfect sense +1
Rajko,
2010/2/27 Rajko M. <rmatov101(a)charter.net>et>:
I have no influence on localized wikis, although when you touched topic, we
can get rid of all that are not touched for some time. For me limit should be
the same as distro lifetime plus 2 months. In other words, if maintainer can't
update wiki to show at least one of supported versions, put note on the main
page wait for 2 months and then just turn the switch off. Note that in
"Translation guide", or some article that will exist only to collect such
info, as reference for future translators and be over with. With current
release cycle that will give 26 moths other interested to jump in and update
wiki.
On Saturday 27 February 2010 08:15:13 Carlos E.
R. wrote:
...
I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about. If you mean to get
rid of un-maintained translated (to whatever language) articles IN the
english wiki: Certainly go for it! BUT I hope you don't mean to get
rid of localized wikis all together. There are people interested in translation of the
wiki, but maybe not in
this list. You could ask in the wiki list, or the translation list. Me,
I do translations, but not of the wiki.
The question is what to do with translations as project policy, ditto
this mail list. The same question was asked on wiki ML and there was no
answer, or there was, but with slight misunderstanding about the goal of
the question.
The goal is not only to cleanup the wiki by trowing away translated
articles, but how to keep articles somewhere. The talk was about translation as a way to acquire new
market, and the begin
is usually that someone translates only few key articles to make download and
installation easy to people from his country. I would like to have dedicated
wiki for such articles with simple organization where each language has portal
and category, so that we can remove them from en.o.o.
also +1 here. My full support to cleanup translation ruins in en.o.o
Unmaintained article will get Outdated article tag
with note when it will be
deleted. What was mentioned about unmaintained wikis that should be valid for
articles. When article is about not supported version then it is marked as
such and after 2 months is removed.
also +1 .. go for it.
...
It is nice to have agreement on something :)
Actually I don't have the feeling to be in general disagreement with
you. You have?
Best,
R
...
Translation process that
assumes that translation is one way street from English to some other
language has a serious flaw.
+1. While doing the German Wiki Reviewing, we encouraged German
Reviewers to push German content not available in the English instance
into it. ... Best,
R
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5 Mar
5 Mar
2:40 a.m.
On Thursday 04 March 2010 07:56:54 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
It is about translations :)
So we have agreement on terms for creation and removal of language wikis and
articles.
That will be written on wiki.o.o, but current procedure should be put on hold
until Henne's agrees on creation of languages.opensuse.org so that we can move
currently active translations there and write instructions.
Next will be to advertise on every corner that there is place for initial
translations, that will be also place for creation of community in particular
language, with final goal to create language wiki, when community engagement
in the project is at steady and satisfactory level.
Later in cooperation with translators we can develop translation process
details making entry level as low as possible.
There is one more thing to think about, to see how we can use Google
translations as a seed for articles that are not yet translated in a classic
way.
I was pleased with initial quality of translations and additional tools that
Google offers to improve automatically generated one. All that with Croatian
language that is not one of major languages and I did not expect usable
results, but I was wrong.
It is service that benefits both, translators and Google.
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It is nice to
have agreement on something :)
Actually I don't have the feeling to be in general disagreement with
you. You have?
2 p.m.
Rajko,
2010/3/5 Rajko M. <rmatov101(a)charter.net>et>:
On Thursday 04 March 2010 07:56:54 Rupert Horstkötter
wrote:
It is about translations :)
So we have agreement on terms for creation and removal of language wikis and
articles.
That will be written on wiki.o.o, but current procedure should be put on hold
until Henne's agrees on creation of languages.opensuse.org so that we can move
currently active translations there and write instructions.
Just to understand this better, you'd like to move language wikis like
de.o.o/fr.o.o and so on to languages.o.o? Or did I get you wrong here?
May you please explain this a bit better, i.e. how the structure
should look like etc? Thanks in advance.
It is
nice to have agreement on something :)
Actually I don't have the feeling to be in general disagreement with
you. You have? Next will be to advertise on every corner that there
is place for initial
translations, that will be also place for creation of community in particular
language, with final goal to create language wiki, when community engagement
in the project is at steady and satisfactory level.
Later in cooperation with translators we can develop translation process
details making entry level as low as possible.
There is one more thing to think about, to see how we can use Google
translations as a seed for articles that are not yet translated in a classic
way.
I was pleased with initial quality of translations and additional tools that
Google offers to improve automatically generated one. All that with Croatian
language that is not one of major languages and I did not expect usable
results, but I was wrong.
It is service that benefits both, translators and Google.
Actually I have another feeling about Google translate. We tried this
a year ago for forums.o.o with rather unpleasing results. Also, as a
German native speaker, I occasionally translate whole pages, e.g. in
Italian to German/English and the results are most of the time
"readable" at best. I mean you understand the general meaning and
let's say 70% of the content is at a 80% acceptable language
skills-level but the rest of it isn't good and just for "guessing" and
thus not acceptable for tutorial-style documentation purposes.
Certainly we can test this but IMO Google translate cannot substitute
human input. I fear that translations would be perceived
"semi-professional" at best from a native speaker of a certain
language. As it seems, Translations from English to a certain language
and back have the "best" quality here, Translation from e.g. German to
Italian are even worse. That my experience from the forums project and
my very personal ones as a non-native speaker of most languages
available on planet earth :)
Best,
R
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6 Mar
6 Mar
2:53 a.m.
On Friday 05 March 2010 07:00:02 Rupert Horstkötter wrote:
...
Not automatically per default, absolutely not.
I mentioned ability to use other Google tool:
http://translate.google.com/support/toolkit/
that is accessible from page with automatic translations.
It is a nice way to translate group of pages with other people.
The tool is designed for collaboration, but I haven't tested it translating
anything with others.
For the rest I agree with your discussion, but having initial translation that
translator don't have to correct in every sentence made good impression on me
and I really think that we should seriously consider how to incorporate that
in translation efforts.
BTW, localization effort should look there as well.
...
2010/3/5 Rajko M. <rmatov101(a)charter.net>et>:
No, those that have active wikis are already at final stage, they have own
wiki and they don't need languages.o.o.
The languages.o.o should serve as place where some active members of openSUSE
can create communities in their languages, instead of fighting for place under
the Sun in en.o.o.
***
That will be written on wiki.o.o, but current
procedure should be put on
hold until Henne's agrees on creation of languages.opensuse.org so that
we can move currently active translations there and write instructions.
Just to understand this better, you'd like to move language wikis like
de.o.o/fr.o.o and so on to languages.o.o? Or did I get you wrong here?
May you please explain this a bit better, i.e. how the structure
should look like etc? Thanks in advance. It is service
that benefits both, translators and Google.
Actually I have another feeling about Google translate. We tried this
a year ago for forums.o.o with rather unpleasing results. I fear that translations would be perceived
"semi-professional" at best from a native speaker of a certain
language. As it seems, Translations from English to a certain language
and back have the "best" quality here, Translation from e.g. German to
Italian are even worse. That my experience from the forums project and
my very personal ones as a non-native speaker of most languages
available on planet earth :)
I know that it is not perfect, but it is usable, specially combined with human
help to bring translation in shape :)
http://translate.google.com/support/toolkit/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=…
I understand as if you use Global shared memory then you improve all
translations. On the other hand if you create topic related memory, one for
Linux and also one openSUSE, then after some time you should have easy time
translating pages.
Best,
R
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9 Mar
9 Mar
5:15 p.m.
Rajko,
2010/3/6 Rajko M. <rmatov101(a)charter.net>et>:
On Friday 05 March 2010 07:00:02 Rupert Horstkötter
wrote:
...
Ah, now I understand this whole through. Yes, this sounds like a much
better approach than the current "fighting for place under the Sun in
en.o.o" :-)
Thanks for clarifying this. I haven't understood your differentiation
between those languages that have their own wiki and those "startups",
but now that makes perfect sense. What would we need to get started
here? I guess a separate server/domain can be handled by ... Henne?
Frank? Do you take care of this (coming in touch) by yourself?
2010/3/5 Rajko M. <rmatov101(a)charter.net>et>:
No, those that have active wikis are already at final stage, they have own
wiki and they don't need languages.o.o.
The languages.o.o should serve as place where some active members of openSUSE
can create communities in their languages, instead of fighting for place under
the Sun in en.o.o.
That will be written on wiki.o.o, but current
procedure should be put on
hold until Henne's agrees on creation of languages.opensuse.org so that
we can move currently active translations there and write instructions.
Just to understand this better, you'd like to move language wikis like
de.o.o/fr.o.o and so on to languages.o.o? Or did I get you wrong here?
May you please explain this a bit better, i.e. how the structure
should look like etc? Thanks in advance. ***
Not automatically per default, absolutely not.
I mentioned ability to use other Google tool:
http://translate.google.com/support/toolkit/
that is accessible from page with automatic translations.
It is a nice way to translate group of pages with other people.
The tool is designed for collaboration, but I haven't tested it translating
anything with others.
Ok, I see. Actually I wasn't aware of this particular opportunity yet.
It is
service that benefits both, translators and Google.
Actually I have another feeling about Google translate. We tried this
a year ago for forums.o.o with rather unpleasing results. For the rest I agree with your discussion, but having
initial translation that
translator don't have to correct in every sentence made good impression on me
and I really think that we should seriously consider how to incorporate that
in translation efforts.
+1. Question is HOW to introduce it and especially HOW to advertise
the use of it properly in order to avoid "encouraging" people to use
such translators as their tool of choice to do the work and then leave
it as is.
BTW, localization effort should look there as well.
...
That's what I actually tried to raise your attention upon. Combining
them may lead to sufficient results. We just need to avoid a de-facto
"replacing approach" taken by translators IMO and as said above, we
need to think about HOW to advertise such tools' usage to translators.
Best,
R
I fear that translations would be perceived
"semi-professional" at best from a native speaker of a certain
language. As it seems, Translations from English to a certain language
and back have the "best" quality here, Translation from e.g. German to
Italian are even worse. That my experience from the forums project and
my very personal ones as a non-native speaker of most languages
available on planet earth :)
I know that it is not perfect, but it is usable, specially combined with human
help to bring translation in shape :)
http://translate.google.com/support/toolkit/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=…
I understand as if you use Global shared memory then you improve all
translations. On the other hand if you create topic related memory, one for
Linux and also one openSUSE, then after some time you should have easy time
translating pages.
--
Rupert Horstkötter, open-slx gmbh
openSUSE Board Member
openSUSE Community Assistant
http://en.opensuse.org/User:Rhorstkoetter
Email: rhorstkoetter(a)opensuse.org
Jabber: ruperthorstkoetter(a)googlemail.com
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Best,
R
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4 Mar
4 Mar
11:04 p.m.
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On Saturday, 2010-02-27 at 09:36 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
Well, they are pages of use to the team translating opensuse to Spanish.
At least one of them, dedicated to kbabel, doesn't change in long time,
because kbabel itself is frozen. Removing pages simply because they are
not updated maybe unfair, you should ask the authors of each page.
And as to translating those to English... as I say, I don't translate the
wiki, in neither direction O:-)
(I believe I wrote versions on both languages initially. Then the Spanish
ones were further developed by others, and I'm not "wiki skilled" to do
the same to the English counterparts.)
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
On Saturday 27 February 2010 08:15:13 Carlos E. R.
wrote:
I know of some
pages that exist in Spanish but not in English. I wrote
some myself.
Which can be OK if they are Spanish speaking areas specific, but if they are
technical articles then we have a problem if they are not translated back to
English and any other language wiki. Translation process that assumes that
translation is one way street from English to some other language has a
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5 Mar
5 Mar
3:15 a.m.
On Thursday 04 March 2010 16:04:26 Carlos E. R. wrote:
Removing pages simply because they are
not updated maybe unfair, you should ask the authors of each page.
It is not that much that article is not updated, but that it talks about
procedure or software that is no more in use, or it is talking about problems
that are already solved in a newer version. First will grant removal of whole
article, but second only removal of text about problem that is solved and it
will require article tag that will request article update.
And as to translating those to English... as I say, I don't translate the
wiki, in neither direction O:-)
You can always ask for assistance O:-)
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3:40 p.m.
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On Thursday, 2010-03-04 at 20:15 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
I'm open for other people to do the translations O:-)
But don't look at me.
I don't like writing on the wiki, I don't have much time,
and when I have, I don't have internet.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
On Thursday 04 March 2010 16:04:26 Carlos E. R.
wrote:
You should contact the authors in any case. I assume that the names and
emails are logged somewhere.
As to software not in use, no, some of us we still use kbabel for
translations (the replacement is not finished).
Removing pages simply because they are
not updated maybe unfair, you should ask the authors of each page.
It is not that much that article is not updated, but that it talks about
procedure or software that is no more in use, or it is talking about problems
that are already solved in a newer version. First will grant removal of whole
article, but second only removal of text about problem that is solved and it
will require article tag that will request article update. And as to
translating those to English... as I say, I don't translate the
wiki, in neither direction O:-)
You can always ask for assistance O:-) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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6 Mar
6 Mar
7:16 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Wiki translations: How to improve process? [was: Do we need them?]
On Friday 05 March 2010 08:40:31 Carlos E. R. wrote:
You should contact the authors in any case. I assume
that the names and
emails are logged somewhere.
Wiki ID (as rajko_m for me) yes in history of every article, but emails are
hidden if setup at all. It is user option to use email notifications, so if
user don't know how to enable that, or don't want them, then all that is left
to contact author is his User_talk:<wiki ID> page.
As to software not in use, no, some of us we still use
kbabel for
translations (the replacement is not finished).
My comment on outdated or obsolete software wasn't about any particular title,
including kbabel.
It is simply about a lot of articles that still exist about old software
versions, offering advices that are not applicable to the new version, or
about software that is no more in distribution as upstream doesn't develop it.
That problems are more present on language wikis then on en.o.o, but it is
thing that we should think about.
One bot that will parse language wikis, remember article creation time, link
to en.o.o (or other wiki) then compare last revision date to en.o.o (or other
wiki), can help by issuing warning that article is out of date. For instance
by adding links to translation and original to the list of pages to review.
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9 Mar
9 Mar
5:05 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Wiki translations: How to improve process? [was: Do we need them?]
Rajko,
2010/3/6 Rajko M. <rmatov101(a)charter.net>et>:
One bot that will parse language wikis, remember
article creation time, link
to en.o.o (or other wiki) then compare last revision date to en.o.o (or other
wiki), can help by issuing warning that article is out of date. For instance
by adding links to translation and original to the list of pages to review.
That particular approach sounds pretty much deliberated!
Best,
R
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27 Feb
27 Feb
4:26 p.m.
On Saturday 27 February 2010 05:05:41 Martin Schlander wrote:
What exactly is meant by translations. Does it imply
localized wikis
altogether?
Any translated wiki article that can help spread the word about openSUSE to
non English speaking people. English is among programmers almost precondition
to learn anything and work, there is much more those that don't know it and
the only way to reach them is their native language.
We are attempting to clean en.o.o and partial translations are one of the
problems. They are useful for openSUSE, but they should have own home server,
not to be interspersed with articles in English. You can't see similar thing
in any other language wiki. Ditto my questions in a first post.
I'd say localized wikis are very desirable - but
them being always kept in
sync clones of the English wiki is not important to me.
It is not important for every article, but we never established rules how to
deal with it. The biggest problem for translators is Welcome page that
contains parts that are changing from time to time, but having translated
announcement and not related text is the same as start road construction that
leads nowhere. It makes no sense.
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1 Mar
1 Mar
2:30 p.m.
Hi,
On 02/20/2010 02:45 PM, Rajko M. wrote:
Do we need them?
Some of them yes.
If yes then we have to organize wiki translations in a
different way then it
is now.
True.
Recently when we started with en.opensuse.org (en.o.o)
reorganization there
was few questions to decide what to do. One of them is what we are going to do
with few translations of some wiki pages, but not enough to grant own wiki.
I asked what we going to do with those articles.
Get rid of them and while were at it get rid of the assumption that
English somehow is the "master" language. With this we can get rid of
the whole process and grant language wiki's on the one requirement that
all the other attempts fail on: openSUSE people that care for it. We
have a couple of successful language wikis (german and french mostly)
and the only reason they are successful is because the people that work
on them are active AND connected to the project. I think this should be
THE prerequisite to start a language wiki, not some technicalities. Once
"granted" the maintainers can do what they want with it.
Henne
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4 Mar
4 Mar
3:01 a.m.
On Monday 01 March 2010 07:30:06 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Hi,
On 02/20/2010 02:45 PM, Rajko M. wrote:
It is easy with outdated stuff. I'll put in the wiki what I mentioned in
another, answer to the Rupert.
Do we need them?
Some of them yes.
If yes then we have to organize wiki translations
in a different way then
it is now.
True.
Recently when we started with en.opensuse.org
(en.o.o) reorganization
there was few questions to decide what to do. One of them is what we are
going to do with few translations of some wiki pages, but not enough to
grant own wiki. I asked what we going to do with those articles.
Get rid of them and while were at it get rid of the assumption that
English somehow is the "master" language.
I has to be written and advertised, so that everyone knows.
With this we can get rid of
the whole process and grant language wiki's on the one requirement that
all the other attempts fail on: openSUSE people that care for it. We
have a couple of successful language wikis (german and french mostly)
and the only reason they are successful is because the people that work
on them are active AND connected to the project. I think this should be
THE prerequisite to start a language wiki, not some technicalities. Once
"granted" the maintainers can do what they want with it.
Agree on both requirements, activity and connection to the project.
First is similar to already written requirement that wiki can be created only
for group of translators that can keep wiki updated. One man show is no go.
Second requirement to have translators active and connected to the project is
new and crucial. Those that have problem to talk to the rest of the project
for whatever reason really can't maintain wiki.
Although we should be careful as each of language wikis started with one
diligent translator, including those that can be considered successful. German
was exception, but that wiki is exceptional in every respect.
Henne
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10:56 p.m.
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On Wednesday, 2010-03-03 at 20:01 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
...
Second requirement to have translators active and
connected to the project is
new and crucial. Those that have problem to talk to the rest of the project
for whatever reason really can't maintain wiki.
Now and then people interested in translating the wiki ask in the
translation mail list (English or Spanish, in my case), which is (are)
dedicated to translating programs, not the wiki. So we redirect them to
the wiki list instead. Sometimes they mention that they do not get an
answer there.
Me, I only translate programs, not the wiki.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
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3968
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3985
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20 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
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Carlos E. R. -
Henne Vogelsang -
Martin Schlander -
Rajko M. -
Rupert Horstkötter