3 Mar
2020
3 Mar
'20
5:07 p.m.
hi,
I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why
they both exist/which to use.
opensuse English Generic questions and User to User support for
all the openSUSE distributions
opensuse-support English openSUSE support
thanks,
ITwrx
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3 Mar
3 Mar
5:38 p.m.
* ITwrx <info(a)itwrx.org> [03-03-20 11:27]:
hi,
I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why
they both exist/which to use.
opensuse English Generic questions and User to User support for
all the openSUSE distributions
opensuse-support English openSUSE support
as I see it:
way back there was much too much off-topic conversation on the "opensuse"
list and an "off-topic" list was created.
"opensuse-factory" was the "support" list for current Tumbleweed and
pre-Tumbleweed.
"opensuse-support" was created to move the Tumbleweed support traffic from
opensuse-factory to lessen traffic for the dev' to step thru.
"opensuse-support" has morphed into support for all and "opensuse" to
play-ground and off-topic and what-ever someone feels like at the moment.
basically, except for "opensuse-factory", one just does what one feels
like. Netiquette is as forgotten as is common courtesy.
good luck,
--
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http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri
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6:42 p.m.
On 3/3/20 10:38 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* ITwrx <info(a)itwrx.org> [03-03-20 11:27]:
ok, thanks
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hi,
I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why
they both exist/which to use.
opensuse English Generic questions and User to User support for
all the openSUSE distributions
opensuse-support English openSUSE support
as I see it:
way back there was much too much off-topic conversation on the "opensuse"
list and an "off-topic" list was created.
"opensuse-factory" was the "support" list for current Tumbleweed and
pre-Tumbleweed.
"opensuse-support" was created to move the Tumbleweed support traffic from
opensuse-factory to lessen traffic for the dev' to step thru.
"opensuse-support" has morphed into support for all and "opensuse"
to
play-ground and off-topic and what-ever someone feels like at the moment.
basically, except for "opensuse-factory", one just does what one feels
like. Netiquette is as forgotten as is common courtesy.
good luck, 
4 Mar
4 Mar
11:16 a.m.
In data martedì 3 marzo 2020 17:38:47 CET, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto:
"opensuse-support" has morphed into support
for all and "opensuse" to
play-ground and off-topic and what-ever someone feels like at the moment.
Not what I know of.
I would call this a very personal opinion.
Got support of opensuse(a)opensuse.org
Did nearly get never usable answers on very sensible questions on support.
Basically, in my view, it boils down to the fact that there is a very torn
userbase with tendency to compartmentalize up to the fact of having redundancy
in the mailing list.
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6 Mar
6 Mar
11:58 a.m.
On 04/03/2020 11.16, stakanov wrote:
In data martedì 3 marzo 2020 17:38:47 CET, Patrick
Shanahan ha scritto:
IMO, moving support of factory to the "opensuse-support" mailing list
only works if the developers read and occasionally write there. There
are many questions that volunteers do not know, too complicated,
specific, or new stuff.
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
"opensuse-support" has morphed into
support for all and "opensuse" to
play-ground and off-topic and what-ever someone feels like at the moment.
Not what I know of.
I would call this a very personal opinion.
Got support of opensuse(a)opensuse.org
Did nearly get never usable answers on very sensible questions on support.
Basically, in my view, it boils down to the fact that there is a very torn
userbase with tendency to compartmentalize up to the fact of having redundancy
in the mailing list. 
28 Aug
28 Aug
2:36 p.m.
On Tue 2020-03-03, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* ITwrx <info(a)itwrx.org> [03-03-20 11:27]:
FWIW, I was just looking where to ask a support question and was
going to reach out to opensuse@ (until my search before sending my
mail find this note of yours).
Could/should we clarify the purpose of these lists a little better
on https://lists.opensuse.org/#User/Support ?
Or merge the two? Looking at the list archives ... it totally is
not evident to me what the difference is. :-(
Gerald
I'm wondering what the difference is between
these two lists, or why
they both exist/which to use.
opensuse English Generic questions and User to User support for
all the openSUSE distributions
opensuse-support English openSUSE support
as I see it:
way back there was much too much off-topic conversation on the
"opensuse" list and an "off-topic" list was created.
"opensuse-factory" was the "support" list for current Tumbleweed and
pre-Tumbleweed.
"opensuse-support" was created to move the Tumbleweed support traffic from
opensuse-factory to lessen traffic for the dev' to step thru.
"opensuse-support" has morphed into support for all and "opensuse"
to
play-ground and off-topic and what-ever someone feels like at the moment.
2:51 p.m.
* Gerald Pfeifer <gp(a)suse.com> [08-28-20 08:39]:
On Tue 2020-03-03, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
there has become no difference with the exception that opensuse-offtopic
is not archived.
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* ITwrx <info(a)itwrx.org> [03-03-20 11:27]:
FWIW, I was just looking where to ask a support question and was
going to reach out to opensuse@ (until my search before sending my
mail find this note of yours).
Could/should we clarify the purpose of these lists a little better
on https://lists.opensuse.org/#User/Support ?
Or merge the two? Looking at the list archives ... it totally is
not evident to me what the difference is. :-( I'm wondering what the difference is between
these two lists, or why
they both exist/which to use.
opensuse English Generic questions and User to User support for
all the openSUSE distributions
opensuse-support English openSUSE support
as I see it:
way back there was much too much off-topic conversation on the
"opensuse" list and an "off-topic" list was created.
"opensuse-factory" was the "support" list for current Tumbleweed and
pre-Tumbleweed.
"opensuse-support" was created to move the Tumbleweed support traffic from
opensuse-factory to lessen traffic for the dev' to step thru.
"opensuse-support" has morphed into support for all and "opensuse"
to
play-ground and off-topic and what-ever someone feels like at the moment. 
2:54 p.m.
Le 28/08/2020 à 14:36, Gerald Pfeifer a écrit :
Could/should we clarify the purpose of these lists a
little better
on https://lists.opensuse.org/#User/Support ?
no difference
Or merge the two? Looking at the list archives ... it totally is
not evident to me what the difference is. :-(
on opensuse@, there are sometime flamewars, often completely offtopic
(but also often very interesting). -support was created in the hope it
will fix this, and of course it can't...
it's so easy to ignore a discussion in any decent client that this is
unuseful. If you don't want flames, go to moderated forum
jdd
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3:25 p.m.
Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
Could/should we clarify the purpose of these lists a
little better
on https://lists.opensuse.org/#User/Support ?
Or merge the two? Looking at the list archives ... it totally is
not evident to me what the difference is. :-(
I suggest we merge them into opensuse(a)o.o
"opensuse-support" was created on a board initiative, in May 2018. As
an openSUSE user and member, I was opposed at the time and I still am.
I'll be happy to supply some usage stats if anyone is interested.
--
Per Jessen, Zürich (21.2°C)
Member, openSUSE Heroes
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3:42 p.m.
On 28/08/2020 15.25, Per Jessen wrote:
Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
I think that the -support mail list gets more Tumbleweed related
questions that would go before to the factory mail list.
If the developers are happy with that, it serves some purpose ;-)
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Could/should we clarify the purpose of these
lists a little better
on https://lists.opensuse.org/#User/Support ?
Or merge the two? Looking at the list archives ... it totally is
not evident to me what the difference is. :-(
I suggest we merge them into opensuse(a)o.o
"opensuse-support" was created on a board initiative, in May 2018. As
an openSUSE user and member, I was opposed at the time and I still am.
I'll be happy to supply some usage stats if anyone is interested. 
3:55 p.m.
On Fri, 2020-08-28 at 15:42 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 28/08/2020 15.25, Per Jessen wrote:
After years of dealing with the toxic behaviour of many in the
opensuse@ mailinglist, as both an openSUSE user and member, I will
_never_ contribute to such a list nor can I in good conscience
recommend that anyone else ever join such a list.
No list is perfect, but opensuse-support@ does a far better job of
providing users support in a healthy environment than the unremitting
dank stain on this Project that opensuse@ stands to be.
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Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
I think that the -support mail list gets more Tumbleweed related
questions that would go before to the factory mail list.
If the developers are happy with that, it serves some purpose ;-) Could/should we clarify the purpose of these
lists a little
better
on https://lists.opensuse.org/#User/Support ?
Or merge the two? Looking at the list archives ... it totally is
not evident to me what the difference is. :-(
I suggest we merge them into opensuse(a)o.o
"opensuse-support" was created on a board initiative, in May
2018. As
an openSUSE user and member, I was opposed at the time and I still
am.
I'll be happy to supply some usage stats if anyone is interested. 
4:35 p.m.
Richard Brown composed on 2020-08-28 15:55 (UTC+0200):
After years of dealing with the toxic behaviour of
many in the
opensuse@ mailinglist, as both an openSUSE user and member, I will
_never_ contribute to such a list nor can I in good conscience
recommend that anyone else ever join such a list.
No list is perfect, but opensuse-support@ does a far
better job of
providing users support in a healthy environment than the unremitting
dank stain on this Project that opensuse@ stands to be.
In rough terms I agree.
Given the existing panoply of lists, the unhyphenated opensuse list is out of
place, serving to confuse a new user, and suggest that anything goes on it, in
contrast to all the others. -offtopic and -support should be clear enough in
purpose that the opensuse list can, and should, be eliminated.
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is based on faith, not on science.
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
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6:18 p.m.
On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 10:35, Felix Miata <mrmazda(a)earthlink.net>
wrote:
In rough terms I agree.
Given the existing panoply of lists, the unhyphenated opensuse list
is out of
place, serving to confuse a new user, and suggest that anything goes
on it, in
contrast to all the others. -offtopic and -support should be clear
enough in
purpose that the opensuse list can, and should, be eliminated.
With https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/70018 progressing, now I
wonder how you would see that transition going. The current plan is that
opensuse(a)o.o, would move over to be users(a)l.o.o (mirroring what happens
with opensuse-$lang(a)o.o becoming users-$lang(a)l.o.o).
I genuinely think that the amount of toxicity there causes a huge
divide between developers and the users. We have to have a place where
the users are able to voice their concerns about what we are making, and
a place where the developers can listen and evaluate those concerns.
That's not a role that can be fulfilled by a support mailing list or an
offtopic one (especially if it's not archived), and certainly not by the
current form of the opensuse(a)o.o mailing list.
LCP [Stasiek]
https://lcp.world
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6:35 p.m.
Felix Miata wrote:
Richard Brown composed on 2020-08-28 15:55
(UTC+0200):
I suggest that would be a serious mistake. After a little more than two
years, the unhyphenated opensuse list still has about six times more
subscribers and about five times more traffic than opensuse-support.
Why not just let people vote with their feet. If the support is more
easily available on opensuse-support and of a higher quality too, people
will move over.
IMHO, providing support has always been a slightly sore point for
openSUSE, we are just not very good at it. Eliminating the most
popular openSUSE mailing list (opensuse-factory has slightly more
subscribers) is not the way to improve on that situation.
--
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Member, openSUSE Heroes
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After years of dealing with the toxic behaviour
of many in the
opensuse@ mailinglist, as both an openSUSE user and member, I will
_never_ contribute to such a list nor can I in good conscience
recommend that anyone else ever join such a list.
No list is perfect, but opensuse-support@ does a
far better job of
providing users support in a healthy environment than the unremitting
dank stain on this Project that opensuse@ stands to be.
In rough terms I agree.
Given the existing panoply of lists, the unhyphenated opensuse list is
out of place, serving to confuse a new user, and suggest that anything
goes on it, in contrast to all the others. -offtopic and -support
should be clear enough in purpose that the opensuse list can, and
should, be eliminated.
10:05 p.m.
On 28/08/2020 15.55, Richard Brown wrote:
On Fri, 2020-08-28 at 15:42 +0200, Carlos E. R.
wrote:
Well... here I go, I show some support for the opensuse-support@ mail
list, and I get a toxic reply, I'm sorry to say.
Anyway I'm afraid that opensuse-support@ clearly does a poor job of
providing support, because few people answer questions, specifically
few devs.
I just had a quick look and I see 66 threads since May, eight with no
answers at all. I did not look further to find out which of the other
issues were solved.
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 28/08/2020 15.25, Per Jessen wrote:
After years of dealing with the toxic behaviour of many in the
opensuse@ mailinglist, as both an openSUSE user and member, I will
_never_ contribute to such a list nor can I in good conscience
recommend that anyone else ever join such a list.
No list is perfect, but opensuse-support@ does a far better job of
providing users support in a healthy environment than the unremitting
dank stain on this Project that opensuse@ stands to be. Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
I think that the -support mail list gets more Tumbleweed related
questions that would go before to the factory mail list.
If the developers are happy with that, it serves some purpose ;-) Could/should we clarify the purpose of these
lists a little
better on https://lists.opensuse.org/#User/Support ?
Or merge the two? Looking at the list archives ... it totally is
not evident to me what the difference is. :-(
I suggest we merge them into opensuse(a)o.o
"opensuse-support" was created on a board initiative, in May
2018. As an openSUSE user and member, I was opposed at the time
and I still am.
I'll be happy to supply some usage stats if anyone is interested. 
6 Mar
6 Mar
10:40 a.m.
ITwrx wrote:
hi,
I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why
they both exist/which to use.
For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much
depends on what kind of support you are looking for.
"opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to
attempt to improve communication.
See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html
My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on
opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for
the community in general.
--
Per Jessen, Zürich (9.0°C)
Member, openSUSE Heroes - also mailing list manager
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10:50 p.m.
On 3/6/20 8:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
ITwrx wrote:
As some background, there was concerns from openSUSE developers on the
factory mailing list that some developers were unsubscribing from a list
they should be on because it had too much noise from "support" related
questions.
At the same time there were people who wanted to provide support getting
frustrated with the amount of general open source / general openSUSE
discussion on the opensuse mailing list. As well as threads that started
out as support threads ending up massive and off topic with people
sharing opinions on anything that could be seen as atleast half way
related. Some people in that list were also getting grumpy about
tumbleweed support questions (although ti was an official openSUSE distro)
The board decided that the best or atleast the least worst way to solve
the above two issues was to create a new dedicated opensuse-support list
with a clear and well defined purpose leaving the opensuse list more for
the regular general discussion that tends to end up there. Some people
still ask support questions there and that is fine.
Cheers
Simon
--
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Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek
SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30
GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
hi,
I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why
they both exist/which to use.
For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much
depends on what kind of support you are looking for.
"opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to
attempt to improve communication.
See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html
My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on
opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for
the community in general.
11:43 p.m.
* Simon Lees <sflees(a)suse.de> [03-06-20 16:53]:
On 3/6/20 8:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
and a list was *specifically* provided for the conversations now existing
on "opensuse" rather than the intended location, "opensuse-offtopic".
so we now have two offtopic lists, one designated and one utilized for
whatever seems to be in anyone's mind atm which is sometimes used for
requesting support, and a designatedsupport list which is sometimes
utilized and factory which is still voilated.
and without a dedicated effort, they will all remain as such or
deteriorate further.
Where are you when you are needed, Chris.
--
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http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri
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ITwrx wrote:
As some background, there was concerns from openSUSE developers on the
factory mailing list that some developers were unsubscribing from a list
they should be on because it had too much noise from "support" related
questions.
At the same time there were people who wanted to provide support getting
frustrated with the amount of general open source / general openSUSE
discussion on the opensuse mailing list. As well as threads that started
out as support threads ending up massive and off topic with people
sharing opinions on anything that could be seen as atleast half way
related. Some people in that list were also getting grumpy about
tumbleweed support questions (although ti was an official openSUSE distro)
The board decided that the best or atleast the least worst way to solve
the above two issues was to create a new dedicated opensuse-support list
with a clear and well defined purpose leaving the opensuse list more for
the regular general discussion that tends to end up there. Some people
still ask support questions there and that is fine. hi,
I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why
they both exist/which to use.
For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much
depends on what kind of support you are looking for.
"opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to
attempt to improve communication.
See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html
My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on
opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for
the community in general.
7 Mar
7 Mar
12:12 a.m.
On 6. Mar 2020, at 23:43, Patrick Shanahan
<paka(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
* Simon Lees <sflees(a)suse.de> [03-06-20 16:53]:
and a list was *specifically* provided for the conversations now existing
on "opensuse" rather than the intended location,
"opensuse-offtopic".
so we now have two offtopic lists, one designated and one utilized for
whatever seems to be in anyone's mind atm which is sometimes used for
requesting support, and a designatedsupport list which is sometimes
utilized and factory which is still voilated.
and without a dedicated effort, they will all remain as such or
deteriorate further.
Where are you when you are needed, Chris.
The off topic list is for discussions that have nothing to do with openSUSE
The opensuse list is for general discussions related to opensuse
opensuse-support is for support discussions
And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the calendar can confirm
that he was intimately involved in every single Board decision that led up to and included
the formation of the opensuse-support mailinglist.
So maybe you can practice a little less vitriolics and a little more common sense before
posting here?
or alternatively we have more suitable lists for your repeated textual flagellation of the
project. I’m getting tired of reading them here, and I’m sure other contributors are
getting similarly demotivated as a result of reading your posts.
On 3/6/20 8:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
ITwrx wrote:
As some background, there was concerns from openSUSE developers on the
factory mailing list that some developers were unsubscribing from a list
they should be on because it had too much noise from "support" related
questions.
At the same time there were people who wanted to provide support getting
frustrated with the amount of general open source / general openSUSE
discussion on the opensuse mailing list. As well as threads that started
out as support threads ending up massive and off topic with people
sharing opinions on anything that could be seen as atleast half way
related. Some people in that list were also getting grumpy about
tumbleweed support questions (although ti was an official openSUSE distro)
The board decided that the best or atleast the least worst way to solve
the above two issues was to create a new dedicated opensuse-support list
with a clear and well defined purpose leaving the opensuse list more for
the regular general discussion that tends to end up there. Some people
still ask support questions there and that is fine. hi,
I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why
they both exist/which to use.
For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much
depends on what kind of support you are looking for.
"opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to
attempt to improve communication.
See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html
My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on
opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for
the community in general. --
(paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
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12:15 a.m.
Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 00:12:06 CET schreef Richard Brown:
+1 from me. Thanks for saving me the time.
--
Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht
openSUSE Forums Team
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On 6. Mar
2020, at 23:43, Patrick Shanahan <paka(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
* Simon Lees <sflees(a)suse.de> [03-06-20 16:53]:
and a list was *specifically* provided for the conversations now existing
on "opensuse" rather than the intended location,
"opensuse-offtopic".
so we now have two offtopic lists, one designated and one utilized for
whatever seems to be in anyone's mind atm which is sometimes used for
requesting support, and a designatedsupport list which is sometimes
utilized and factory which is still voilated.
and without a dedicated effort, they will all remain as such or
deteriorate further.
Where are you when you are needed, Chris.
The off topic list is for discussions that have nothing to do with openSUSE
The opensuse list is for general discussions related to opensuse
opensuse-support is for support discussions
And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the calendar
can confirm that he was intimately involved in every single Board decision
that led up to and included the formation of the opensuse-support
mailinglist.
So maybe you can practice a little less vitriolics and a little more common
sense before posting here?
or alternatively we have more suitable lists for your repeated textual
flagellation of the project. I’m getting tired of reading them here, and
I’m sure other contributors are getting similarly demotivated as a result
of reading your posts. On 3/6/20
8:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
ITwrx wrote:
> hi,
>
> I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why
> they both exist/which to use.
For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much
depends on what kind of support you are looking for.
"opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to
attempt to improve communication.
See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html
My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on
opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for
the community in general.
As some background, there was concerns from openSUSE developers on the
factory mailing list that some developers were unsubscribing from a list
they should be on because it had too much noise from "support" related
questions.
At the same time there were people who wanted to provide support getting
frustrated with the amount of general open source / general openSUSE
discussion on the opensuse mailing list. As well as threads that started
out as support threads ending up massive and off topic with people
sharing opinions on anything that could be seen as atleast half way
related. Some people in that list were also getting grumpy about
tumbleweed support questions (although ti was an official openSUSE
distro)
The board decided that the best or atleast the least worst way to solve
the above two issues was to create a new dedicated opensuse-support list
with a clear and well defined purpose leaving the opensuse list more for
the regular general discussion that tends to end up there. Some people
still ask support questions there and that is fine.
12:30 a.m.
* Richard Brown <rbrown(a)suse.de> [03-06-20 18:12]:
no, I do not mean Christopher. I said Chris
On 6. Mar 2020, at 23:43, Patrick Shanahan
<paka(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
* Simon Lees <sflees(a)suse.de> [03-06-20 16:53]:
and a list was *specifically* provided for the conversations now existing
on "opensuse" rather than the intended location,
"opensuse-offtopic".
so we now have two offtopic lists, one designated and one utilized for
whatever seems to be in anyone's mind atm which is sometimes used for
requesting support, and a designatedsupport list which is sometimes
utilized and factory which is still voilated.
and without a dedicated effort, they will all remain as such or
deteriorate further.
Where are you when you are needed, Chris.
The off topic list is for discussions that have nothing to do with openSUSE
The opensuse list is for general discussions related to opensuse
opensuse-support is for support discussions
And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the calendar can confirm
that he was intimately involved in every single Board decision that led up to and included
the formation of the opensuse-support mailinglist. On 3/6/20 8:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
ITwrx wrote:
> hi,
>
> I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why
> they both exist/which to use.
For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much
depends on what kind of support you are looking for.
"opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to
attempt to improve communication.
See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html
My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on
opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for
the community in general.
As some background, there was concerns from openSUSE developers on the
factory mailing list that some developers were unsubscribing from a list
they should be on because it had too much noise from "support" related
questions.
At the same time there were people who wanted to provide support getting
frustrated with the amount of general open source / general openSUSE
discussion on the opensuse mailing list. As well as threads that started
out as support threads ending up massive and off topic with people
sharing opinions on anything that could be seen as atleast half way
related. Some people in that list were also getting grumpy about
tumbleweed support questions (although ti was an official openSUSE distro)
The board decided that the best or atleast the least worst way to solve
the above two issues was to create a new dedicated opensuse-support list
with a clear and well defined purpose leaving the opensuse list more for
the regular general discussion that tends to end up there. Some people
still ask support questions there and that is fine. So maybe you can practice a little less vitriolics and
a little more common sense before posting here?
yes, WE should
or alternatively we have more suitable lists for your
repeated textual
flagellation of the project. I’m getting tired of reading them here,
and I’m sure other contributors are getting similarly demotivated as a
result of reading your posts.
have a nice day ...
> --
> (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri
> http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri
> Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org
> To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org
>
but do not trim.
--
(paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
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4:36 a.m.
* Patrick Shanahan <paka(a)opensuse.org> [03-06-20 18:30]:
--
(paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
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* Richard Brown <rbrown(a)suse.de> [03-06-20
18:12]:
no, I do not mean Christopher. I said Chris
it came to me, Christopher Mahmood
old memory is rather fuzzy, but you will not remember as he left long
before you arrived.
On 6. Mar 2020, at 23:43, Patrick Shanahan
<paka(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
* Simon Lees <sflees(a)suse.de> [03-06-20 16:53]:
The off topic list is for discussions that have nothing to do with openSUSE
The opensuse list is for general discussions related to opensuse
opensuse-support is for support discussions
And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the calendar can confirm
that he was intimately involved in every single Board decision that led up to and included
the formation of the opensuse-support mailinglist.
> On 3/6/20 8:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
> ITwrx wrote:
>
>> hi,
>>
>> I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why
>> they both exist/which to use.
>
> For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much
> depends on what kind of support you are looking for.
>
> "opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to
> attempt to improve communication.
>
> See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html
>
> My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on
> opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for
> the community in general.
As some background, there was concerns from openSUSE developers on the
factory mailing list that some developers were unsubscribing from a list
they should be on because it had too much noise from "support" related
questions.
At the same time there were people who wanted to provide support getting
frustrated with the amount of general open source / general openSUSE
discussion on the opensuse mailing list. As well as threads that started
out as support threads ending up massive and off topic with people
sharing opinions on anything that could be seen as atleast half way
related. Some people in that list were also getting grumpy about
tumbleweed support questions (although ti was an official openSUSE distro)
The board decided that the best or atleast the least worst way to solve
the above two issues was to create a new dedicated opensuse-support list
with a clear and well defined purpose leaving the opensuse list more for
the regular general discussion that tends to end up there. Some people
still ask support questions there and that is fine.
and a list was *specifically* provided for the conversations now existing
on "opensuse" rather than the intended location,
"opensuse-offtopic".
so we now have two offtopic lists, one designated and one utilized for
whatever seems to be in anyone's mind atm which is sometimes used for
requesting support, and a designatedsupport list which is sometimes
utilized and factory which is still voilated.
and without a dedicated effort, they will all remain as such or
deteriorate further.
Where are you when you are needed, Chris.
So maybe you
can practice a little less vitriolics and a little more common sense before posting here?
yes, WE should
or alternatively we have more suitable lists for
your repeated textual
flagellation of the project. I’m getting tired of reading them here,
and I’m sure other contributors are getting similarly demotivated as a
result of reading your posts.
have a nice day ...
12:33 a.m.
* Richard Brown <rbrown(a)suse.de> [03-06-20 18:15]:
personal replies not requested and not needed.
--
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http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode
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On 6. Mar 2020, at 23:43, Patrick Shanahan
<paka(a)opensuse.org> wrote:
* Simon Lees <sflees(a)suse.de> [03-06-20 16:53]:
and a list was *specifically* provided for the conversations now existing
on "opensuse" rather than the intended location,
"opensuse-offtopic".
so we now have two offtopic lists, one designated and one utilized for
whatever seems to be in anyone's mind atm which is sometimes used for
requesting support, and a designatedsupport list which is sometimes
utilized and factory which is still voilated.
and without a dedicated effort, they will all remain as such or
deteriorate further.
Where are you when you are needed, Chris.
The off topic list is for discussions that have nothing to do with openSUSE
The opensuse list is for general discussions related to opensuse
opensuse-support is for support discussions
And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the calendar can confirm
that he was intimately involved in every single Board decision that led up to and included
the formation of the opensuse-support mailinglist.
So maybe you can practice a little less vitriolics and a little more common sense before
posting here?
or alternatively we have more suitable lists for your repeated textual flagellation of
the project. I’m getting tired of reading them here, and I’m sure other contributors are
getting similarly demotivated as a result of reading your posts.
On 3/6/20 8:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
ITwrx wrote:
> hi,
>
> I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why
> they both exist/which to use.
For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much
depends on what kind of support you are looking for.
"opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to
attempt to improve communication.
See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html
My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on
opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for
the community in general.
As some background, there was concerns from openSUSE developers on the
factory mailing list that some developers were unsubscribing from a list
they should be on because it had too much noise from "support" related
questions.
At the same time there were people who wanted to provide support getting
frustrated with the amount of general open source / general openSUSE
discussion on the opensuse mailing list. As well as threads that started
out as support threads ending up massive and off topic with people
sharing opinions on anything that could be seen as atleast half way
related. Some people in that list were also getting grumpy about
tumbleweed support questions (although ti was an official openSUSE distro)
The board decided that the best or atleast the least worst way to solve
the above two issues was to create a new dedicated opensuse-support list
with a clear and well defined purpose leaving the opensuse list more for
the regular general discussion that tends to end up there. Some people
still ask support questions there and that is fine. 
2:20 p.m.
Hello,
Am Samstag, 7. März 2020, 00:12:06 CET schrieb Richard Brown:
On 6. Mar 2020, at 23:43, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
...
> and a list was *specifically* provided for the
conversations now
> existing on "opensuse" rather than the intended location,
> "opensuse-offtopic".
>
> so we now have two offtopic lists, one designated and one utilized
> for whatever seems to be in anyone's mind atm which is sometimes
> used for requesting support, and a designatedsupport list which is
> sometimes utilized and factory which is still voilated.
I tend to disagree ;-)
Some years ago, I was subscribed to opensuse-offtopic@ for maybe a week,
and trust me, it was *really* off-topic. (No idea what's going on there
nowadays, feel free to subscribe and find out.)
OTOH, most mails in opensuse@ are related to openSUSE and not OT.
Nevertheless, the opensuse@ list is a bit special - my impression is
that most discussions there end up with > 20 replies. While this isn't
wrong or bad, it can easily scare a newbie asking for support ;-)
That's why I agreed with creating opensuse-support@, and like Simon, see
it as least worst solution. Those who ask for support there usually get
it with a small number of replies, and that's exactly what I expect from
a support list. Question. Answer. Done.
This doesn't mean that we have to ban support questions from opensuse@,
and the people asking there are probably aware that the opensuse@ way is
"Question. Many answers." ;-)
> Where are you when you are needed, Chris.
...
And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple
look at the
^^^^^^^^^^^
Never heard of that guy, should I know him?
*SCNR*
Regards,
Christian Boltz
--
The normal user is happy with openSUSE because: [...]
- openSUSE isn't a religion (like a few others);
What users blame us is for lack of customization :)
[Nelson Marques in opensuse-factory]
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2:26 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
El 2020-03-07 a las 14:20 +0100, Christian Boltz escribió:
...
I tend to disagree ;-)
Some years ago, I was subscribed to opensuse-offtopic@ for maybe a week,
and trust me, it was *really* off-topic. (No idea what's going on there
nowadays, feel free to subscribe and find out.)
Oh, he is there ;-)
OTOH, most mails in opensuse@ are related to openSUSE
and not OT.
Nevertheless, the opensuse@ list is a bit special - my impression is
that most discussions there end up with > 20 replies. While this isn't
wrong or bad, it can easily scare a newbie asking for support ;-)
Right.
Some threads in opensuse@ end up in opensuse-offtopic@, too.
That's why I agreed with creating
opensuse-support@, and like Simon, see
it as least worst solution. Those who ask for support there usually get
it with a small number of replies, and that's exactly what I expect from
a support list. Question. Answer. Done.
Some are not answered.
...
- --
Cheers
Carlos E. R.
(from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas))
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4:53 p.m.
Le 07/03/2020 à 14:20, Christian Boltz a écrit :
may be you should :-)))))
on the subject, I see opensuse@oo as a "family" list. On your family, I
guess many discussion go here and there, but very often interesting.
There are often more answers on digression than on initial subject :-(,
but this also mean than many people read the mail, even when non answering.
for one shot question, I tend to use the forum.
jdd
--
http://dodin.org
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And if by
“Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the
^^^^^^^^^^^
Never heard of that guy, should I know him?
11:13 p.m.
Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 16:53:30 CET schreef jdd(a)dodin.org:
Le 07/03/2020 à 14:20, Christian Boltz a écrit :
may be you should :-)))))
on the subject, I see opensuse@oo as a "family" list. On your family, I
guess many discussion go here and there, but very often interesting.
There are often more answers on digression than on initial subject :-(,
but this also mean than many people read the mail, even when non answering.
for one shot question, I tend to use the forum.
jdd
I'm sorry, but the "many people" outright refuse to use our
mailing lists,
because what they see as the main list ( after all it's called
opensuse(a)opensuse.org ) not as 'family' but as 'incrowd.
Just have a look at the "Why swap?" thread: A good dozen of posters creating a
100+ thread. Absolutely irrelevant for those who seek support. And a simple
question about TW's partitioner that any of those on the swap thread could
have replied to, stays unanswered. Absolutely without any value for the
community outside the 'incrowd'.
--
Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht
openSUSE Forums Team
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And if by
“Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the
^^^^^^^^^^^
Never heard of that guy, should I know him?
11:35 p.m.
Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 16:53:30 CET schreef
jdd(a)dodin.org:
Gertjan, you know what, I'll put up my one _single_ simple TW question
from a week back and see if anyone has an answer that resolves the
issue. If so, I shall quit opensuse(a)o.o _immediately_ If not, you
have been proven wrong. Will a week be sufficient time?
--
Per Jessen, Zürich (1.6°C)
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Le 07/03/2020 à 14:20, Christian Boltz a écrit :
may be you should :-)))))
on the subject, I see opensuse@oo as a "family" list. On your family,
I guess many discussion go here and there, but very often
interesting. There are often more answers on digression than on
initial subject :-(,
but this also mean than many people read the mail, even when non
answering.
for one shot question, I tend to use the forum.
jdd
I'm sorry, but the "many people" outright refuse to use our mailing
lists, because what they see as the main list ( after all it's called
opensuse(a)opensuse.org ) not as 'family' but as 'incrowd.
Just have a look at the "Why swap?" thread: A good dozen of posters
creating a 100+ thread. Absolutely irrelevant for those who seek
support. And a simple question about TW's partitioner that any of
those on the swap thread could have replied to, stays unanswered.
Absolutely without any value for the community outside the 'incrowd'. And if by
“Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the
^^^^^^^^^^^
Never heard of that guy, should I know him?
11:49 p.m.
Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 23:35:13 CET schreef Per Jessen:
Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
I get your message. And
apologize for putting it this blunt.
What I do not apologize for, is what I write about people refusing to use the
lists. And not for what I said about the "Why swap?" thread.
--
Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht
openSUSE Forums Team
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Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 16:53:30 CET schreef
jdd(a)dodin.org:
Gertjan, you know what, I'll put up my one _single_ simple TW question
from a week back and see if anyone has an answer that resolves the
issue. If so, I shall quit opensuse(a)o.o _immediately_ If not, you
have been proven wrong. Will a week be sufficient time? Le 07/03/2020 à 14:20, Christian Boltz a écrit :
I'm sorry, but the "many people" outright refuse to use our mailing
lists, because what they see as the main list ( after all it's called
opensuse(a)opensuse.org ) not as 'family' but as 'incrowd.
Just have a look at the "Why swap?" thread: A good dozen of posters
creating a 100+ thread. Absolutely irrelevant for those who seek
support. And a simple question about TW's partitioner that any of
those on the swap thread could have replied to, stays unanswered.
Absolutely without any value for the community outside the 'incrowd'. > And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz,
a simple look at the
>
^^^^^^^^^^^
Never heard of that guy, should I know him?
may be you should :-)))))
on the subject, I see opensuse@oo as a "family" list. On your family,
I guess many discussion go here and there, but very often
interesting. There are often more answers on digression than on
initial subject :-(,
but this also mean than many people read the mail, even when non
answering.
for one shot question, I tend to use the forum.
jdd
8 Mar
8 Mar
12:16 a.m.
On 07/03/2020 23.35, Per Jessen wrote:
Please don't. This will be very boring without you ;-)
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
> Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 16:53:30 CET schreef jdd(a)dodin.org:
>> Le 07/03/2020 à 14:20, Christian Boltz a écrit :
I'm sorry, but the "many people" outright refuse to use our mailing
lists, because what they see as the main list ( after all it's called
opensuse(a)opensuse.org ) not as 'family' but as 'incrowd.
Just have a look at the "Why swap?" thread: A good dozen of posters
creating a 100+ thread. Absolutely irrelevant for those who seek
support. And a simple question about TW's partitioner that any of
those on the swap thread could have replied to, stays unanswered.
Absolutely without any value for the community outside the 'incrowd'.
Gertjan, you know what, I'll put up my one _single_ simple TW question
from a week back and see if anyone has an answer that resolves the
issue. If so, I shall quit opensuse(a)o.o _immediately_ If not, you
have been proven wrong. Will a week be sufficient time?
8:23 p.m.
Carlos E. R. wrote:
[off-topic, my apologies, but I think the reply belongs here]
Haha, well - yes I _was_ disappointed that a simple TW issue could not
be resolved on opensuse(a)o.o.
Tonight Gertjan made a suggestion and it worked! My one simple TW
problem _has_ been resolved. Remarkably, all of the posts in the
thread I opened were from people who also 'frequent' opensuse(a)o.o. All
people I know and respect.
In hindsight, my promise was to quit opensuse(a)o.o was of course
downright silly. Apart from my once-in-a-blue-moon TW question,
everything else I am interested in is generally best discussed there.
In March 2021 when I might have another TW question, I'll make sure to
post it to opensuse-support(a)o.o :-)
To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting the community was a bad
idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every
day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best
interest of the community.
--
Per Jessen, Zürich (5.7°C)
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Gertjan, you
know what, I'll put up my one _single_ simple TW
question from a week back and see if anyone has an answer that
resolves the
issue. If so, I shall quit opensuse(a)o.o _immediately_ If not, you
have been proven wrong. Will a week be sufficient time?
Please don't. This will be very boring without you ;-) 
8:58 p.m.
On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen <per(a)computer.org> wrote:
To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting the
community was a bad
idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every
day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best
interest of the community.
Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to
filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also
for the kind people providing it.
It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of
opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community"
but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing
community :).
Best,
--
Maurizio Galli (MauG)
Xfce Team
https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce
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9:33 p.m.
* Maurizio Galli (MauG) <mauriziogalli(a)opensuse.org> [03-08-20 15:59]:
On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen
<per(a)computer.org> wrote:
You feel that "better served" than merely bringing opensuse@o-o back to
it's "on-topic" discussions and the other conversations being redirected
to opensuse-offtopic? The origin of opensuse-support resulted from the
wandering away from topic being seen on opensuse-factory with the
increasing load for support to Tumbleweed. The reason conveyed was the
increased traffic moving dev's away.
With the advent of opensuse-support and the wandering on opensuse, might
as well do away with opensuse-offtopic.
--
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To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting
the community was a bad
idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every
day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best
interest of the community.
Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to
filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also
for the kind people providing it.
It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of
opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community"
but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing
community :).
9 Mar
9 Mar
3:22 a.m.
On 3/9/20 7:03 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Maurizio Galli (MauG)
<mauriziogalli(a)opensuse.org> [03-08-20 15:59]:
I believe some may have tried and failed at that in the past. What you
say about opensuse-factory is also true and I still semi regularly
reminding people not to post support questions there.
On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen
<per(a)computer.org> wrote:
You feel that "better served" than merely bringing opensuse@o-o back to
it's "on-topic" discussions and the other conversations being redirected
to opensuse-offtopic? The origin of opensuse-support resulted from the
wandering away from topic being seen on opensuse-factory with the
increasing load for support to Tumbleweed. The reason conveyed was the
increased traffic moving dev's away. To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting
the community was a bad
idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every
day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best
interest of the community.
Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to
filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also
for the kind people providing it.
It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of
opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community"
but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing
community :). With the advent of opensuse-support and the wandering
on opensuse, might
as well do away with opensuse-offtopic.
I'd be happy for the people in the community still using that list to
decide on that, my impression is that it has minimal positive or
negative impact on the project so if people are still happily using it I
see no reason to remove it. On the other hand if its not being used or
if its only used a little bit and that discussion could be moved else
where then closing it might be reasonable (two years ago we went through
and closed all lists that had very limited or no traffic).
--
Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net
Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek
SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30
GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
2:24 a.m.
On 08/03/2020 20.58, Maurizio Galli (MauG) wrote:
On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen
<per(a)computer.org> wrote:
I doubt that, as several questions there go without answer.
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from oS Leap 15.0 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting
the community was a bad
idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every
day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best
interest of the community.
Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to
filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also
for the kind people providing it.
It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of
opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community"
but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing
community :).
3:23 a.m.
On 3/9/20 11:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 08/03/2020 20.58, Maurizio Galli (MauG) wrote:
Yep people will always occasionally ask a question where no one knows
the answer and I think thats just a reality of life, no answer is
probably also generally better then someone who doesn't really know the
answer guessing and providing something that is not fully correct or
ends up not being helpful.
--
Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net
Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek
SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30
GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen
<per(a)computer.org> wrote:
I doubt that, as several questions there go without answer. To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting
the community was a bad
idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every
day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best
interest of the community.
Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to
filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also
for the kind people providing it.
It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of
opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community"
but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing
community :).
3:32 a.m.
On 09/03/2020 03.23, Simon Lees wrote:
On 3/9/20 11:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But I'm sure some dev knows the answer.
That's the feeling, they do not want us in the factory mail list, but
they will not read the support mail list either :-(
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from oS Leap 15.0 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
On 08/03/2020 20.58, Maurizio Galli (MauG)
wrote:
Yep people will always occasionally ask a question where no one knows
the answer and I think thats just a reality of life, no answer is
probably also generally better then someone who doesn't really know the
answer guessing and providing something that is not fully correct or
ends up not being helpful.
On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen
<per(a)computer.org> wrote:
I doubt that, as several questions there go without answer. To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting
the community was a bad
idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every
day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best
interest of the community.
Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to
filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also
for the kind people providing it.
It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of
opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community"
but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing
community :).
7:06 a.m.
On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 10:32 AM Carlos E. R.
<robin.listas(a)telefonica.net> wrote:
On 09/03/2020 03.23, Simon Lees wrote:
Please lets stop making toxic assumptions, this thread has gone beyond
the original scope of OP question.
This is not SUSE's paid tech support and we shall not expect answers
to all our questions. People in this project are volunteers and as
such they can decide whether or not they want to invest their time in
answering questions.
The devs being also people can be busy and have a life that goes
beyond the mailing lists, forums and chats.
Best,
Maurizio Galli (MauG)
Xfce Team
https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce
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On 3/9/20 11:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But I'm sure some dev knows the answer.
That's the feeling, they do not want us in the factory mail list, but
they will not read the support mail list either :-(
On 08/03/2020 20.58, Maurizio Galli (MauG)
wrote:
Yep people will always occasionally ask a question where no one knows
the answer and I think thats just a reality of life, no answer is
probably also generally better then someone who doesn't really know the
answer guessing and providing something that is not fully correct or
ends up not being helpful.
On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen
<per(a)computer.org> wrote:
> To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting the community was a bad
> idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every
> day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best
> interest of the community.
Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to
filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also
for the kind people providing it.
It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of
opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community"
but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing
community :).
I doubt that, as several questions there go without answer. 
12:30 p.m.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
El 2020-03-09 a las 14:06 +0800, Maurizio Galli (MauG) escribió:
On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 10:32 AM Carlos E. R. <>
wrote:
I'm also a volunteer. I'm simply saying things you do not like to hear,
but it is the truth and few will say it. Sorry about that.
- --
Cheers
Carlos E. R.
(from openSUSE Leap 15.0 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
On 09/03/2020 03.23, Simon Lees wrote:
Please lets stop making toxic assumptions, this thread has gone beyond
the original scope of OP question.
This is not SUSE's paid tech support and we shall not expect answers
to all our questions. People in this project are volunteers and as
such they can decide whether or not they want to invest their time in
answering questions.
The devs being also people can be busy and have a life that goes
beyond the mailing lists, forums and chats.
Best, On 3/9/20 11:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But I'm sure some dev knows the answer.
That's the feeling, they do not want us in the factory mail list, but
they will not read the support mail list either :-(
On 08/03/2020 20.58, Maurizio Galli (MauG)
wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen <per(a)computer.org> wrote:
>
>> To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting the community was a bad
>> idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every
>> day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best
>> interest of the community.
>
> Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to
> filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also
> for the kind people providing it.
> It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of
> opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community"
> but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing
> community :).
I doubt that, as several questions there go without answer.
Yep people will always occasionally ask a question where no one knows
the answer and I think thats just a reality of life, no answer is
probably also generally better then someone who doesn't really know the
answer guessing and providing something that is not fully correct or
ends up not being helpful.
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12:34 p.m.
Le 09/03/2020 à 12:30, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I'm also a volunteer. I'm simply saying things
you do not like to hear,
but it is the truth and few will say it. Sorry about that.
but is this useful to make things better?
jdd
--
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1:20 p.m.
On 09/03/2020 12.34, jdd(a)dodin.org wrote:
Le 09/03/2020 à 12:30, Carlos E. R. a écrit :
I don't know. It is just a fact, and indeed he recognized it.
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from oS Leap 15.0 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
I'm also a volunteer. I'm simply saying
things you do not like to hear,
but it is the truth and few will say it. Sorry about that.
but is this useful to make things better? 
12:43 p.m.
Dne pondělí 9. března 2020 12:30:57 CET, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
El 2020-03-09 a las 14:06 +0800, Maurizio Galli (MauG)
escribió:
Unless You pay, no one has duty to answer, not even a developer.
--
Vojtěch Zeisek
https://trapa.cz/
Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu
Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux
https://www.opensuse.org/
On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 10:32 AM Carlos E. R.
<> wrote:
I'm also a volunteer. I'm simply saying things you do not like to
hear, but it is the truth and few will say it. Sorry about that. On 09/03/2020 03.23, Simon Lees wrote:
Please lets stop making toxic assumptions, this thread has gone
beyond the original scope of OP question.
This is not SUSE's paid tech support and we shall not expect
answers to all our questions. People in this project are volunteers
and as such they can decide whether or not they want to invest their
time in answering questions.
The devs being also people can be busy and have a life that goes
beyond the mailing lists, forums and chats. On 3/9/20 11:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 08/03/2020 20.58, Maurizio Galli (MauG) wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen wrote:
>>> To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting the community
>>> was a bad idea. There are new communication platforms emerging
>>> virtually every day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary
>>> and not in the best interest of the community.
>>
>> Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people
>> to filter noise is not only important for those seeking support
>> but also for the kind people providing it.
>> It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision
>> of opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the
>> community" but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of
>> a growing community :).
>
> I doubt that, as several questions there go without answer.
Yep people will always occasionally ask a question where no one knows
the answer and I think thats just a reality of life, no answer is
probably also generally better then someone who doesn't really know
the answer guessing and providing something that is not fully correct
or ends up not being helpful.
But I'm sure some dev knows the answer.
That's the feeling, they do not want us in the factory mail list,
but they will not read the support mail list either :-(
2:17 p.m.
On 2020-03-09 12:43, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
I agree.
Furthermore, when people express themselves in a way that implies
'entitlement' to support from volunteers, the result is often a lack of
enthusiasm to provide that support.
Sticking with the trend of uncomfortable facts, it is this dynamic which
is why I will _never_ rejoin the opensuse(a)opensuse.org mailinglist and
why I do my best to avoid supporting Carlos, because I do not wish to
encourage his toxic view on how community support should work.
--
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I'm also a
volunteer. I'm simply saying things you do not like to
hear, but it is the truth and few will say it. Sorry about that.
Unless You pay, no one has duty to answer, not even a developer. 
2:23 p.m.
On Mon, 2020-03-09 at 14:17 +0100, Richard Brown wrote:
is why I will _never_ rejoin the opensuse(a)opensuse.org
mailinglist
and
why I do my best to avoid supporting Carlos, because I do not wish
to
encourage his toxic view on how community support should work.
+1000
Cheers
Martin
7:08 a.m.
On 3/9/20 1:02 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 09/03/2020 03.23, Simon Lees wrote:
Not Always and asking all the "devs" to get a question from just one
when its generally easy to figure out the maintainer who is most likely
to know the answer is terribly in efficient and doesn't scale at all.
On 3/9/20 11:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
But I'm sure some dev knows the answer. On 08/03/2020 20.58, Maurizio Galli (MauG)
wrote:
Yep people will always occasionally ask a question where no one knows
the answer and I think thats just a reality of life, no answer is
probably also generally better then someone who doesn't really know the
answer guessing and providing something that is not fully correct or
ends up not being helpful.
On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen
<per(a)computer.org> wrote:
> To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting the community was a bad
> idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every
> day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best
> interest of the community.
Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to
filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also
for the kind people providing it.
It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of
opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community"
but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing
community :).
I doubt that, as several questions there go without answer. That's the feeling, they do not want us in the
factory mail list, but
they will not read the support mail list either :-(
As with all open source projects our support is "best effort" by those
who are willing to help, if that is not good enough several distro's
including one of our primary sponsors SUSE offer paid support for a
number of configurations.
--
Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net
Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek
SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30
GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
2:22 a.m.
On 08/03/2020 20.23, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
[off-topic, my apologies, but I think the reply belongs here]
Haha, well - yes I _was_ disappointed that a simple TW issue could not
be resolved on opensuse(a)o.o.
Tonight Gertjan made a suggestion and it worked! My one simple TW
problem _has_ been resolved. Remarkably, all of the posts in the
thread I opened were from people who also 'frequent' opensuse(a)o.o. All
people I know and respect.
I noticed ;-)
And many if not all of those read this thread as well ;-p
Gertjan,
you know what, I'll put up my one _single_ simple TW
question from a week back and see if anyone has an answer that
resolves the
issue. If so, I shall quit opensuse(a)o.o _immediately_ If not, you
have been proven wrong. Will a week be sufficient time?
Please don't. This will be very boring without you ;-)
In hindsight, my promise was to quit opensuse(a)o.o was of course
downright silly. Apart from my once-in-a-blue-moon TW question,
everything else I am interested in is generally best discussed there.
In March 2021 when I might have another TW question, I'll make sure to
post it to opensuse-support(a)o.o :-)
To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting the community was a bad
idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every
day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best
interest of the community.
I know a very few people that post on Usenet (not the news.o.o site, but
real old usenet) who refuse to post on any mail list or forum. Just
saying :-p
Which is a pity because some of the problem posted are too complicated
for me. I say to ask here but they never do. Once I got one or two to
create a bugzilla.
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from oS Leap 15.0 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))
8 Mar
8 Mar
8:07 p.m.
Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 23:35:13 CET schreef Per Jessen:
Gertjan, you know what, I'll put up my one _single_ simple TW question
from a week back and see if anyone has an answer that resolves the
issue. If so, I shall quit opensuse(a)o.o _immediately_ If not, you
have been proven wrong. Will a week be sufficient time?
I'd hate to see you do
that, please don't.
--
Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht
openSUSE Forums Team
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12:17 a.m.
On 07/03/2020 23.13, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:
Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 16:53:30 CET schreef
jdd(a)dodin.org:
That's for the OP to say. I believe he is happy.
Le 07/03/2020 à 14:20, Christian Boltz a écrit :
may be you should :-)))))
on the subject, I see opensuse@oo as a "family" list. On your family, I
guess many discussion go here and there, but very often interesting.
There are often more answers on digression than on initial subject :-(,
but this also mean than many people read the mail, even when non answering.
for one shot question, I tend to use the forum.
jdd
I'm sorry, but the "many people" outright refuse to use our
mailing lists,
because what they see as the main list ( after all it's called
opensuse(a)opensuse.org ) not as 'family' but as 'incrowd.
Just have a look at the "Why swap?" thread: A good dozen of posters creating a
100+ thread. Absolutely irrelevant for those who seek support. And if by
“Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the
^^^^^^^^^^^
Never heard of that guy, should I know him? And a simple
question about TW's partitioner that any of those on the swap thread could
have replied to, stays unanswered. Absolutely without any value for the
community outside the 'incrowd'.
What question?
If I don't answer a question about TW is because I do not know a proper
answer.
If you refer to the "TW partitioning propsal swap" thread, it was
answered properly.
If you refer to "Tumbleweed yast partitioner" thread, I do not know an
answer.
--
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
12:37 a.m.
Le 07/03/2020 à 23:13, Knurpht-openSUSE a écrit :
Just have a look at the "Why swap?" thread:
A good dozen of posters creating a
100+ thread. Absolutely irrelevant for those who seek support.
I disagree I find most of the answers very interesting, even if I don"'t
have the problem
And a simple
question about TW's partitioner that any of those
on the swap thread could
have replied to, stays unanswered. Absolutely without any value for the
community outside the 'incrowd'.
I don't have tumbleweed, so can't answer...
jdd
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148
days inactive
326
days old
48 comments
19 participants
participants (19)
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Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Felix Miata -
Gerald Pfeifer -
ITwrx -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Knurpht-openSUSE -
Martin Pluskal -
Maurizio Galli (MauG) -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Per Jessen -
Richard Brown -
Simon Lees -
stakanov -
Stasiek Michalski -
Vojtěch Zeisek