On 3/3/20 10:38 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* ITwrx [03-03-20 11:27]:

...

hi,

I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why they both exist/which to use.

opensuse     English     Generic questions and User to User support for all the openSUSE distributions

opensuse-support     English     openSUSE support

as I see it:

way back there was much too much off-topic conversation on the "opensuse" list and an "off-topic" list was created.

"opensuse-factory" was the "support" list for current Tumbleweed and pre-Tumbleweed.

"opensuse-support" was created to move the Tumbleweed support traffic from opensuse-factory to lessen traffic for the dev' to step thru.

"opensuse-support" has morphed into support for all and "opensuse" to play-ground and off-topic and what-ever someone feels like at the moment.

basically, except for "opensuse-factory", one just does what one feels like. Netiquette is as forgotten as is common courtesy.

good luck,

ok, thanks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

ITwrx wrote:

hi,

I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why they both exist/which to use.

For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much depends on what kind of support you are looking for. "opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to attempt to improve communication. See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for the community in general. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.0°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes - also mailing list manager -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 3/6/20 8:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

ITwrx wrote:

...

hi,

I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why they both exist/which to use.

For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much depends on what kind of support you are looking for.

"opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to attempt to improve communication.

See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html

My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for the community in general.

As some background, there was concerns from openSUSE developers on the factory mailing list that some developers were unsubscribing from a list they should be on because it had too much noise from "support" related questions. At the same time there were people who wanted to provide support getting frustrated with the amount of general open source / general openSUSE discussion on the opensuse mailing list. As well as threads that started out as support threads ending up massive and off topic with people sharing opinions on anything that could be seen as atleast half way related. Some people in that list were also getting grumpy about tumbleweed support questions (although ti was an official openSUSE distro) The board decided that the best or atleast the least worst way to solve the above two issues was to create a new dedicated opensuse-support list with a clear and well defined purpose leaving the opensuse list more for the regular general discussion that tends to end up there. Some people still ask support questions there and that is fine. Cheers Simon -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 6. Mar 2020, at 23:43, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Simon Lees [03-06-20 16:53]:

...

...

On 3/6/20 8:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote: ITwrx wrote:

...

hi,

I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why they both exist/which to use.

For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much depends on what kind of support you are looking for.

"opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to attempt to improve communication.

See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html

My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for the community in general.

As some background, there was concerns from openSUSE developers on the factory mailing list that some developers were unsubscribing from a list they should be on because it had too much noise from "support" related questions.

At the same time there were people who wanted to provide support getting frustrated with the amount of general open source / general openSUSE discussion on the opensuse mailing list. As well as threads that started out as support threads ending up massive and off topic with people sharing opinions on anything that could be seen as atleast half way related. Some people in that list were also getting grumpy about tumbleweed support questions (although ti was an official openSUSE distro)

The board decided that the best or atleast the least worst way to solve the above two issues was to create a new dedicated opensuse-support list with a clear and well defined purpose leaving the opensuse list more for the regular general discussion that tends to end up there. Some people still ask support questions there and that is fine.

and a list was *specifically* provided for the conversations now existing on "opensuse" rather than the intended location, "opensuse-offtopic".

so we now have two offtopic lists, one designated and one utilized for whatever seems to be in anyone's mind atm which is sometimes used for requesting support, and a designatedsupport list which is sometimes utilized and factory which is still voilated.

and without a dedicated effort, they will all remain as such or deteriorate further.

Where are you when you are needed, Chris.

The off topic list is for discussions that have nothing to do with openSUSE The opensuse list is for general discussions related to opensuse opensuse-support is for support discussions And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the calendar can confirm that he was intimately involved in every single Board decision that led up to and included the formation of the opensuse-support mailinglist. So maybe you can practice a little less vitriolics and a little more common sense before posting here? or alternatively we have more suitable lists for your repeated textual flagellation of the project. I’m getting tired of reading them here, and I’m sure other contributors are getting similarly demotivated as a result of reading your posts.

-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

* Richard Brown [03-06-20 18:12]:

...

On 6. Mar 2020, at 23:43, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Simon Lees [03-06-20 16:53]:

...

...

On 3/6/20 8:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote: ITwrx wrote:

...

hi,

I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why they both exist/which to use.

For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much depends on what kind of support you are looking for.

"opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to attempt to improve communication.

See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html

My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for the community in general.

As some background, there was concerns from openSUSE developers on the factory mailing list that some developers were unsubscribing from a list they should be on because it had too much noise from "support" related questions.

At the same time there were people who wanted to provide support getting frustrated with the amount of general open source / general openSUSE discussion on the opensuse mailing list. As well as threads that started out as support threads ending up massive and off topic with people sharing opinions on anything that could be seen as atleast half way related. Some people in that list were also getting grumpy about tumbleweed support questions (although ti was an official openSUSE distro)

The board decided that the best or atleast the least worst way to solve the above two issues was to create a new dedicated opensuse-support list with a clear and well defined purpose leaving the opensuse list more for the regular general discussion that tends to end up there. Some people still ask support questions there and that is fine.

and a list was *specifically* provided for the conversations now existing on "opensuse" rather than the intended location, "opensuse-offtopic".

so we now have two offtopic lists, one designated and one utilized for whatever seems to be in anyone's mind atm which is sometimes used for requesting support, and a designatedsupport list which is sometimes utilized and factory which is still voilated.

and without a dedicated effort, they will all remain as such or deteriorate further.

Where are you when you are needed, Chris.

The off topic list is for discussions that have nothing to do with openSUSE

The opensuse list is for general discussions related to opensuse

opensuse-support is for support discussions

And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the calendar can confirm that he was intimately involved in every single Board decision that led up to and included the formation of the opensuse-support mailinglist.

no, I do not mean Christopher. I said Chris

So maybe you can practice a little less vitriolics and a little more common sense before posting here?

yes, WE should

or alternatively we have more suitable lists for your repeated textual flagellation of the project. I’m getting tired of reading them here, and I’m sure other contributors are getting similarly demotivated as a result of reading your posts.

have a nice day ...

...

-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

but do not trim. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

* Patrick Shanahan [03-06-20 18:30]:

* Richard Brown [03-06-20 18:12]:

...

...

On 6. Mar 2020, at 23:43, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Simon Lees [03-06-20 16:53]:

...

...

On 3/6/20 8:10 PM, Per Jessen wrote: ITwrx wrote:

...

hi,

I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why they both exist/which to use.

For the latter part, I suggest you try it out for yourself. Much depends on what kind of support you are looking for.

"opensuse-support" was created in May 2018, IIRC a board initiative to attempt to improve communication.

See https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-support/2018-05/msg00000.html

My personal opinion - creating another list may have reduced traffic on opensuse-factory, but I don't think it has meant much improvement for the community in general.

As some background, there was concerns from openSUSE developers on the factory mailing list that some developers were unsubscribing from a list they should be on because it had too much noise from "support" related questions.

At the same time there were people who wanted to provide support getting frustrated with the amount of general open source / general openSUSE discussion on the opensuse mailing list. As well as threads that started out as support threads ending up massive and off topic with people sharing opinions on anything that could be seen as atleast half way related. Some people in that list were also getting grumpy about tumbleweed support questions (although ti was an official openSUSE distro)

The board decided that the best or atleast the least worst way to solve the above two issues was to create a new dedicated opensuse-support list with a clear and well defined purpose leaving the opensuse list more for the regular general discussion that tends to end up there. Some people still ask support questions there and that is fine.

and a list was *specifically* provided for the conversations now existing on "opensuse" rather than the intended location, "opensuse-offtopic".

so we now have two offtopic lists, one designated and one utilized for whatever seems to be in anyone's mind atm which is sometimes used for requesting support, and a designatedsupport list which is sometimes utilized and factory which is still voilated.

and without a dedicated effort, they will all remain as such or deteriorate further.

Where are you when you are needed, Chris.

The off topic list is for discussions that have nothing to do with openSUSE

The opensuse list is for general discussions related to opensuse

opensuse-support is for support discussions

And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the calendar can confirm that he was intimately involved in every single Board decision that led up to and included the formation of the opensuse-support mailinglist.

no, I do not mean Christopher. I said Chris

it came to me, Christopher Mahmood old memory is rather fuzzy, but you will not remember as he left long before you arrived.

...

So maybe you can practice a little less vitriolics and a little more common sense before posting here?

yes, WE should

...

or alternatively we have more suitable lists for your repeated textual flagellation of the project. I’m getting tired of reading them here, and I’m sure other contributors are getting similarly demotivated as a result of reading your posts.

have a nice day ...

-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 El 2020-03-07 a las 14:20 +0100, Christian Boltz escribió: ...

I tend to disagree ;-)

Some years ago, I was subscribed to opensuse-offtopic@ for maybe a week, and trust me, it was *really* off-topic. (No idea what's going on there nowadays, feel free to subscribe and find out.)

Oh, he is there ;-)

OTOH, most mails in opensuse@ are related to openSUSE and not OT. Nevertheless, the opensuse@ list is a bit special - my impression is that most discussions there end up with > 20 replies. While this isn't wrong or bad, it can easily scare a newbie asking for support ;-)

Right. Some threads in opensuse@ end up in opensuse-offtopic@, too.

That's why I agreed with creating opensuse-support@, and like Simon, see it as least worst solution. Those who ask for support there usually get it with a small number of replies, and that's exactly what I expect from a support list. Question. Answer. Done.

Some are not answered. ... - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.1 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHIEARECADIWIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXmOhBhQccm9iaW4ubGlz dGFzQGdteC5lcwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H1bL/AKCMEV8y+u/290pMZDyunfdYRadukgCf ZeHQ7m5cpuNd4+8ethqVC0BGCXg= =q/zF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 16:53:30 CET schreef jdd@dodin.org:

Le 07/03/2020 à 14:20, Christian Boltz a écrit :

...

...

And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the

^^^^^^^^^^^

Never heard of that guy, should I know him?

may be you should :-)))))

on the subject, I see opensuse@oo as a "family" list. On your family, I guess many discussion go here and there, but very often interesting. There are often more answers on digression than on initial subject :-(, but this also mean than many people read the mail, even when non answering.

for one shot question, I tend to use the forum.

jdd I'm sorry, but the "many people" outright refuse to use our mailing lists, because what they see as the main list ( after all it's called opensuse@opensuse.org ) not as 'family' but as 'incrowd. Just have a look at the "Why swap?" thread: A good dozen of posters creating a 100+ thread. Absolutely irrelevant for those who seek support. And a simple question about TW's partitioner that any of those on the swap thread could have replied to, stays unanswered. Absolutely without any value for the community outside the 'incrowd'.

-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 23:35:13 CET schreef Per Jessen:

Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

...

Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 16:53:30 CET schreef jdd@dodin.org:

...

Le 07/03/2020 à 14:20, Christian Boltz a écrit :

...

...

And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the

^^^^^^^^^^^

Never heard of that guy, should I know him?

may be you should :-)))))

on the subject, I see opensuse@oo as a "family" list. On your family, I guess many discussion go here and there, but very often interesting. There are often more answers on digression than on initial subject :-(, but this also mean than many people read the mail, even when non answering.

for one shot question, I tend to use the forum.

jdd

I'm sorry, but the "many people" outright refuse to use our mailing lists, because what they see as the main list ( after all it's called opensuse@opensuse.org ) not as 'family' but as 'incrowd. Just have a look at the "Why swap?" thread: A good dozen of posters creating a 100+ thread. Absolutely irrelevant for those who seek support. And a simple question about TW's partitioner that any of those on the swap thread could have replied to, stays unanswered. Absolutely without any value for the community outside the 'incrowd'.

Gertjan, you know what, I'll put up my one _single_ simple TW question from a week back and see if anyone has an answer that resolves the issue. If so, I shall quit opensuse@o.o _immediately_ If not, you have been proven wrong. Will a week be sufficient time? I get your message. And apologize for putting it this blunt.

What I do not apologize for, is what I write about people refusing to use the lists. And not for what I said about the "Why swap?" thread. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/03/2020 23.13, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 16:53:30 CET schreef jdd@dodin.org:

...

Le 07/03/2020 à 14:20, Christian Boltz a écrit :

...

...

And if by “Chris” you mean Christopher Boltz, a simple look at the

^^^^^^^^^^^

Never heard of that guy, should I know him?

may be you should :-)))))

on the subject, I see opensuse@oo as a "family" list. On your family, I guess many discussion go here and there, but very often interesting. There are often more answers on digression than on initial subject :-(, but this also mean than many people read the mail, even when non answering.

for one shot question, I tend to use the forum.

jdd I'm sorry, but the "many people" outright refuse to use our mailing lists, because what they see as the main list ( after all it's called opensuse@opensuse.org ) not as 'family' but as 'incrowd. Just have a look at the "Why swap?" thread: A good dozen of posters creating a 100+ thread. Absolutely irrelevant for those who seek support.

That's for the OP to say. I believe he is happy.

And a simple question about TW's partitioner that any of those on the swap thread could have replied to, stays unanswered. Absolutely without any value for the community outside the 'incrowd'.

What question? If I don't answer a question about TW is because I do not know a proper answer. If you refer to the "TW partitioning propsal swap" thread, it was answered properly. If you refer to "Tumbleweed yast partitioner" thread, I do not know an answer. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Op zaterdag 7 maart 2020 23:35:13 CET schreef Per Jessen:

Gertjan, you know what, I'll put up my one _single_ simple TW question from a week back and see if anyone has an answer that resolves the issue. If so, I shall quit opensuse@o.o _immediately_ If not, you have been proven wrong. Will a week be sufficient time?

I'd hate to see you do that, please don't. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen wrote:

To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting the community was a bad idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best interest of the community.

Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also for the kind people providing it. It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community" but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing community :). Best, -- Maurizio Galli (MauG) Xfce Team https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/03/2020 20.23, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Gertjan, you know what, I'll put up my one _single_ simple TW question from a week back and see if anyone has an answer that resolves the issue. If so, I shall quit opensuse@o.o _immediately_ If not, you have been proven wrong. Will a week be sufficient time?

Please don't. This will be very boring without you ;-)

[off-topic, my apologies, but I think the reply belongs here]

Haha, well - yes I _was_ disappointed that a simple TW issue could not be resolved on opensuse@o.o.

Tonight Gertjan made a suggestion and it worked! My one simple TW problem _has_ been resolved. Remarkably, all of the posts in the thread I opened were from people who also 'frequent' opensuse@o.o. All people I know and respect.

I noticed ;-) And many if not all of those read this thread as well ;-p

In hindsight, my promise was to quit opensuse@o.o was of course downright silly. Apart from my once-in-a-blue-moon TW question, everything else I am interested in is generally best discussed there. In March 2021 when I might have another TW question, I'll make sure to post it to opensuse-support@o.o :-)

To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting the community was a bad idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best interest of the community.

I know a very few people that post on Usenet (not the news.o.o site, but real old usenet) who refuse to post on any mail list or forum. Just saying :-p Which is a pity because some of the problem posted are too complicated for me. I say to ask here but they never do. Once I got one or two to create a bugzilla. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.0 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))

On 3/9/20 7:03 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Maurizio Galli (MauG) [03-08-20 15:59]:

...

On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen wrote:

...

To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting the community was a bad idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best interest of the community.

Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also for the kind people providing it. It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community" but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing community :).

You feel that "better served" than merely bringing opensuse@o-o back to it's "on-topic" discussions and the other conversations being redirected to opensuse-offtopic? The origin of opensuse-support resulted from the wandering away from topic being seen on opensuse-factory with the increasing load for support to Tumbleweed. The reason conveyed was the increased traffic moving dev's away.

I believe some may have tried and failed at that in the past. What you say about opensuse-factory is also true and I still semi regularly reminding people not to post support questions there.

With the advent of opensuse-support and the wandering on opensuse, might as well do away with opensuse-offtopic.

I'd be happy for the people in the community still using that list to decide on that, my impression is that it has minimal positive or negative impact on the project so if people are still happily using it I see no reason to remove it. On the other hand if its not being used or if its only used a little bit and that discussion could be moved else where then closing it might be reasonable (two years ago we went through and closed all lists that had very limited or no traffic). -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 09/03/2020 03.23, Simon Lees wrote:

On 3/9/20 11:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 08/03/2020 20.58, Maurizio Galli (MauG) wrote:

...

On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen wrote:

...

To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting the community was a bad idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best interest of the community.

Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also for the kind people providing it. It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community" but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing community :).

I doubt that, as several questions there go without answer.

Yep people will always occasionally ask a question where no one knows the answer and I think thats just a reality of life, no answer is probably also generally better then someone who doesn't really know the answer guessing and providing something that is not fully correct or ends up not being helpful.

But I'm sure some dev knows the answer. That's the feeling, they do not want us in the factory mail list, but they will not read the support mail list either :-( -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.0 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))

On 3/9/20 1:02 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 09/03/2020 03.23, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 3/9/20 11:54 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 08/03/2020 20.58, Maurizio Galli (MauG) wrote:

...

On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 3:23 AM Per Jessen wrote:

...

To return to $SUBJ - I still maintain splitting the community was a bad idea. There are new communication platforms emerging virtually every day, adding to the confusion was wholly unnecessary and not in the best interest of the community.

Having a place 100% dedicated to support that doesn't need people to filter noise is not only important for those seeking support but also for the kind people providing it. It helps keep things concise and tidy. I support the decision of opensuse-support@o-o and I don't consider it "splitting the community" but rather a sensible action to answer the needs of a growing community :).

I doubt that, as several questions there go without answer.

Yep people will always occasionally ask a question where no one knows the answer and I think thats just a reality of life, no answer is probably also generally better then someone who doesn't really know the answer guessing and providing something that is not fully correct or ends up not being helpful.

But I'm sure some dev knows the answer.

Not Always and asking all the "devs" to get a question from just one when its generally easy to figure out the maintainer who is most likely to know the answer is terribly in efficient and doesn't scale at all.

That's the feeling, they do not want us in the factory mail list, but they will not read the support mail list either :-(

As with all open source projects our support is "best effort" by those who are willing to help, if that is not good enough several distro's including one of our primary sponsors SUSE offer paid support for a number of configurations. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Le 09/03/2020 à 12:30, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

I'm also a volunteer. I'm simply saying things you do not like to hear, but it is the truth and few will say it. Sorry about that.

but is this useful to make things better? jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/03/2020 12.34, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 09/03/2020 à 12:30, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

I'm also a volunteer. I'm simply saying things you do not like to hear, but it is the truth and few will say it. Sorry about that.

but is this useful to make things better?

I don't know. It is just a fact, and indeed he recognized it. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from oS Leap 15.0 x86_64 (Minas Tirith))

On Mon, 2020-03-09 at 14:17 +0100, Richard Brown wrote:

is why I will _never_ rejoin the opensuse@opensuse.org mailinglist and why I do my best to avoid supporting Carlos, because I do not wish to encourage his toxic view on how community support should work. +1000

Cheers Martin

* Gerald Pfeifer [08-28-20 08:39]:

On Tue 2020-03-03, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* ITwrx [03-03-20 11:27]:

...

I'm wondering what the difference is between these two lists, or why they both exist/which to use.

opensuse     English     Generic questions and User to User support for all the openSUSE distributions

opensuse-support     English     openSUSE support as I see it:

way back there was much too much off-topic conversation on the "opensuse" list and an "off-topic" list was created.

"opensuse-factory" was the "support" list for current Tumbleweed and pre-Tumbleweed.

"opensuse-support" was created to move the Tumbleweed support traffic from opensuse-factory to lessen traffic for the dev' to step thru.

"opensuse-support" has morphed into support for all and "opensuse" to play-ground and off-topic and what-ever someone feels like at the moment.

FWIW, I was just looking where to ask a support question and was going to reach out to opensuse@ (until my search before sending my mail find this note of yours).

Could/should we clarify the purpose of these lists a little better on https://lists.opensuse.org/#User/Support ?

Or merge the two? Looking at the list archives ... it totally is not evident to me what the difference is. :-(

there has become no difference with the exception that opensuse-offtopic is not archived. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

Could/should we clarify the purpose of these lists a little better on https://lists.opensuse.org/#User/Support ?

Or merge the two? Looking at the list archives ... it totally is not evident to me what the difference is. :-(

I suggest we merge them into opensuse@o.o "opensuse-support" was created on a board initiative, in May 2018. As an openSUSE user and member, I was opposed at the time and I still am. I'll be happy to supply some usage stats if anyone is interested. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.2°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 2020-08-28 at 15:42 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 28/08/2020 15.25, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

...

Could/should we clarify the purpose of these lists a little better on https://lists.opensuse.org/#User/Support ?

Or merge the two? Looking at the list archives ... it totally is not evident to me what the difference is. :-(

I suggest we merge them into opensuse@o.o

"opensuse-support" was created on a board initiative, in May 2018. As an openSUSE user and member, I was opposed at the time and I still am.

I'll be happy to supply some usage stats if anyone is interested.

I think that the -support mail list gets more Tumbleweed related questions that would go before to the factory mail list.

If the developers are happy with that, it serves some purpose ;-)

After years of dealing with the toxic behaviour of many in the opensuse@ mailinglist, as both an openSUSE user and member, I will _never_ contribute to such a list nor can I in good conscience recommend that anyone else ever join such a list. No list is perfect, but opensuse-support@ does a far better job of providing users support in a healthy environment than the unremitting dank stain on this Project that opensuse@ stands to be. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 10:35, Felix Miata wrote:

In rough terms I agree.

Given the existing panoply of lists, the unhyphenated opensuse list is out of place, serving to confuse a new user, and suggest that anything goes on it, in contrast to all the others. -offtopic and -support should be clear enough in purpose that the opensuse list can, and should, be eliminated.

With https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/70018 progressing, now I wonder how you would see that transition going. The current plan is that opensuse@o.o, would move over to be users@l.o.o (mirroring what happens with opensuse-$lang@o.o becoming users-$lang@l.o.o). I genuinely think that the amount of toxicity there causes a huge divide between developers and the users. We have to have a place where the users are able to voice their concerns about what we are making, and a place where the developers can listen and evaluate those concerns. That's not a role that can be fulfilled by a support mailing list or an offtopic one (especially if it's not archived), and certainly not by the current form of the opensuse@o.o mailing list. LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 28/08/2020 15.55, Richard Brown wrote:

On Fri, 2020-08-28 at 15:42 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 28/08/2020 15.25, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

...

Could/should we clarify the purpose of these lists a little better on https://lists.opensuse.org/#User/Support ?

Or merge the two? Looking at the list archives ... it totally is not evident to me what the difference is. :-(

I suggest we merge them into opensuse@o.o

"opensuse-support" was created on a board initiative, in May 2018. As an openSUSE user and member, I was opposed at the time and I still am.

I'll be happy to supply some usage stats if anyone is interested.

I think that the -support mail list gets more Tumbleweed related questions that would go before to the factory mail list.

If the developers are happy with that, it serves some purpose ;-)

After years of dealing with the toxic behaviour of many in the opensuse@ mailinglist, as both an openSUSE user and member, I will _never_ contribute to such a list nor can I in good conscience recommend that anyone else ever join such a list.

No list is perfect, but opensuse-support@ does a far better job of providing users support in a healthy environment than the unremitting dank stain on this Project that opensuse@ stands to be.

Well... here I go, I show some support for the opensuse-support@ mail list, and I get a toxic reply, I'm sorry to say. Anyway I'm afraid that opensuse-support@ clearly does a poor job of providing support, because few people answer questions, specifically few devs. I just had a quick look and I see 66 threads since May, eight with no answers at all. I did not look further to find out which of the other issues were solved. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)