January 2009 - openSUSE Features - openSUSE Mailing Lists

[openFate 305489] default email in email applications
by fate_noreply＠suse.de 20 Jan '09

20 Jan '09

Feature changed by: Martin Lasarsch (mlasars) Feature #305489, revision 11 Title: default email in email applications openSUSE-11.2: New Priority Requester: Desirable Requested by: Martin Lasarsch (mlasars) Partner organization: openSUSE.org Description: To get more subscriptions to the mailinglists it would be nice to have a "default mail" in the mail clients (evolution, kmail) which points the user to the mailinglists. Every openSUSE user should be subscribed to opensuse-announce at least. A simple reply to this "default mail" should subscribe to the list. Of course there could be more information in it, like other important lists, pointing to the main list page. evolution have already a "default mail", with general information about evolution, kmail afaik not. This might be also usefull for OEM customers to have a welcome mail for the customers, pointing to the support pages etc.. So general email "branding" packages which makes it possible to have such special "default mails" for the email clients would be usefull. Discussion: #1: Carlos Lange (cflange) (2009-01-17 19:59:30) There are several parts to this suggestion. 1) "default mail": If you mean "Default" in the sense that when I start a new message the To: field is filled out by default with the mailing- list address, I disagree with your comment. The user should set that and an inexperienced user should find herself/himself subscribing to a mailing-list by mistake, just because they forgot to reset the To: field. Such a user would be rightly upset and feel like they were trapped into doing it. 2) If you mean, however, that the address book in Evolution and Kmail should be pre-populated with relevant addresses, such as the mailing- list and others, in the same way the Firefox bookmarks toolbar comes pre-populated with the SUSE folder, then I would agree that this is a useful suggestion, because the user can freely choose to use those addresses or not. 3) I strongly disagree that every openSUSE user should be subscribed to the opensuse-announce mailing-list. I deal with many different types of users. Only a minority of them would be interested in receiving announcements and they actively subscribe to the mailing-list. The vast majority of them likes the Linux-way of being non-intrusive, without the nags and unsolicited messages from the proprietary world, that tend to be associated with annoying marketing strategies. Please, don't advocate that for openSUSE. The SUSE information box shown at the first login is as much in-your- face direct marketing as one should need to take when using openSUSE. And being beautiful and carefully designed as it is, it contains all information a new user needs to decide how much involved with the operating system they want to be. #2: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-01-20 02:05:37) (reply to #1) Perhaps "every" is a bit much, but I feel a lot more people should be subscribed than are currently. I find it's not uncommon to talk to people and see that they're unaware of something happening in the community that has been announced on the mailing list. The percentage of people subscribed to -announce is much less than 1% of openSUSE users, and I feel we could be reaching a lot more people. It's not an "annoying marketing strategy," it's an attempt to keep our community informed. Most of the messages that go to announce are not "marketing" in nature, they're informative. #3: Kevin Dupuy (kdupuy9) (2009-01-20 02:49:32) (reply to #2) I also like the idea of having more users subscribed to the -announce list. Every time there is scheduled downtime, even though it is announced on -announce and openSUSE News, some people come on the opensuse(a)o.o mailinglist "eh, what happened? the servers are down, suse is unreliable!",. so those type of mails I'd like for more users to get. Then again perhaps not every user wants to know when the next project meeting is, so that's a strike against the idea as well. I do think, as with Carlos, that the address book in Kontact and Evolution should have some important email address in there (opensuse(a)o.o, anything else?) + #4: Martin Lasarsch (mlasars) (2009-01-20 17:12:09) (reply to #1) + 1. no + 2. maybe, why not + 3. should means as an opt-in ... not forcing + With default i meant to have a simple email in the inbox to make it + easier to subscribe to the announce list. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/?rm=feature_show&id=305489

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[openFate 305574] Integrate ftrace
by fate_noreply＠suse.de 20 Jan '09

20 Jan '09

Feature changed by: Greg Kroah-Hartman (gregkh) Feature #305574, revision 3 Title: Integrate ftrace openSUSE-11.2: New Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Jan Blunck (janblunck) Partner organization: openSUSE.org Description: The ftrace infrastructure currently available in upstream kernels comes with different tracers. Having these tracers general available would enable us to find performance and functional regressions more easily during development and in support. Some of them need further work to be included in production kernels (so they don't depend on frame pointers etc.). + Discussion: + #1: Greg Kroah-Hartman (gregkh) (2009-01-20 05:11:51) + We will get these automatically with the 11.2 release, so I don't see + this as a big issue at all. Is there something different that we need + to do to support these tracers? -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/?rm=feature_show&id=305574

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[openFate 305634] Debian-like dist-upgrade live system full version upgrade
by fate_noreply＠suse.de 20 Jan '09

20 Jan '09

Feature changed by: Cristian Rodríguez (elvigia) Feature #305634, revision 34 Title: Debian-like dist-upgrade live system full version upgrade openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) Partner organization: openSUSE.org Description: With the 11.2 cycle, we want to offer users the ability to perform a live system upgrade in the manner of Debian's dist-upgrade. For the purpose of this cycle, we want to support dist-upgrade from the previous version (11.1) only, as this is a sufficiently complicated problem as is. From the user's view, the difference is between being able to update the system incrementally within the given version or service pack running, to being ble to migrate with a system command ("zypper dup" or similar) to a higher version altogether. In the Debian experience, the set of base distributions is not necessarily limited, but it has been Ubuntu's practice to define what starting points other than "release n-1" are allowed (for instance, all LTS versions are purported to be able to "apt dist-upgrade" to the top of the line, although I have heard of problems trying to jump two years - 6.06->8.10 - in a fell swoop in this manner :-). In the openSUSE scope, we should aim to be able to "dup" between incremental versions, starting from 11.1 to 11.2, and later 11.x to 12.0. Business case (Partner benefit): openSUSE.org: With the introduction of the Zypper stack to SLE, we finally reached the state of a featureful (which YOU was not) and fast, reliable (which ZLM was not) update stack in the platform. For enterprise use, some tweaks are still desirable (changelogs, rollback, ...) which we are looking at, as well as improvements on the Enterprise management front, which we are working on with our SRM colleagues. The only really significant competitive feature we are missing at this point is the Debian/Ubuntu dist-upgrade functionality, which has a powerful psychological impact at the Enterprise level and a much more tangible impact at the small user / single user level: many with no IT department do use Ubuntu these days on the basis that "chasing" Fedora and openSUSE along the six-month upgrade cycle is too much for them, and feel they can save time on Ubuntu with the combination of dist- upgrade and the longer LTS cycle. The rationale for pursuing this is to revoke the special status of coolness this functionality gives Ubuntu, and to terminate the negative influence that may have on our SLE sales (from the expert's personal opinion, the preference then easily spills into purchasing). Discussion: #1: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-01-07 20:42:15) This is the #1 feature in the systems management scope for 11.2 - I have no doubt it will be fun :-) #4: Klaus Kämpf (kwk) (2009-01-09 11:32:53) Passing to mls for technical evaluation (solver + autobuild) #5: Michael Schröder (mlschroe) (2009-01-09 12:48:10) Any hint on what features are currently missing? #6: Klaus Kämpf (kwk) (2009-01-09 13:30:57) (reply to #5) From the top of my head: How to handle * Library ABI changes (e.g. major gcc/g++ upgrades) ? * Core package changes (e.g. devs.rpm to udev) ? * Kernel changes (if application/deamons need a specific kernel abi, dbus comes into mind) ? * Failure handling (network breakdown, package update errors, ...) ? * Booting of the new kernel ? #7: Michael Schröder (mlschroe) (2009-01-09 14:45:09) (reply to #6) And debian does this in some way? #8: Robert Davies (robopensuse) (2009-01-17 12:43:42) (reply to #7) The distupgrade feature differs from changing source list and doing upgrade, so some utility process could be started. They may require some documented procedure to be followed, for "tough" changes. But ABI change, how long since ELF/glibc was introduced? C++ ABI ought not be relevant for upgrade process, they are "just" applications and libaries to be updated. Failure handling - you are told to back up your system first, it is "best effort" not guaranteed. The less you have installed the more likely it is to succeed. Debian offer choice of kernels, this may "punt" the problem to a user controlled install and select from GRUB menu. Debian have apt-cache possibility, to create central pool of packages, to decrease liklihood of network troubles, as well as huge number CD and DVD iso's. #9: Thorsten Kukuk (kukuk) (2009-01-17 15:24:35) (reply to #8) The glibc internal ABI changes frequently. Means, running applications will continue to use the old glibc with the old ABI, but installed are already the new plugins => running applications can crash. + #10: Cristian Rodríguez (elvigia) (2009-01-20 03:36:38) (reply to #8) + ABI is important during the upgrade process, I have seen applications + crashing if you upgrade running a desktop enviroment, however we need + to worry more about other stuff first IMHO. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/?rm=feature_show&id=305634

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[openFate 305489] default email in email applications
by fate_noreply＠suse.de 20 Jan '09

20 Jan '09

Feature changed by: Kevin Dupuy (kdupuy9) Feature #305489, revision 10 Title: default email in email applications openSUSE-11.2: New Priority Requester: Desirable Requested by: Martin Lasarsch (mlasars) Partner organization: openSUSE.org Description: To get more subscriptions to the mailinglists it would be nice to have a "default mail" in the mail clients (evolution, kmail) which points the user to the mailinglists. Every openSUSE user should be subscribed to opensuse-announce at least. A simple reply to this "default mail" should subscribe to the list. Of course there could be more information in it, like other important lists, pointing to the main list page. evolution have already a "default mail", with general information about evolution, kmail afaik not. This might be also usefull for OEM customers to have a welcome mail for the customers, pointing to the support pages etc.. So general email "branding" packages which makes it possible to have such special "default mails" for the email clients would be usefull. Discussion: #1: Carlos Lange (cflange) (2009-01-17 19:59:30) There are several parts to this suggestion. 1) "default mail": If you mean "Default" in the sense that when I start a new message the To: field is filled out by default with the mailing- list address, I disagree with your comment. The user should set that and an inexperienced user should find herself/himself subscribing to a mailing-list by mistake, just because they forgot to reset the To: field. Such a user would be rightly upset and feel like they were trapped into doing it. 2) If you mean, however, that the address book in Evolution and Kmail should be pre-populated with relevant addresses, such as the mailing- list and others, in the same way the Firefox bookmarks toolbar comes pre-populated with the SUSE folder, then I would agree that this is a useful suggestion, because the user can freely choose to use those addresses or not. 3) I strongly disagree that every openSUSE user should be subscribed to the opensuse-announce mailing-list. I deal with many different types of users. Only a minority of them would be interested in receiving announcements and they actively subscribe to the mailing-list. The vast majority of them likes the Linux-way of being non-intrusive, without the nags and unsolicited messages from the proprietary world, that tend to be associated with annoying marketing strategies. Please, don't advocate that for openSUSE. The SUSE information box shown at the first login is as much in-your- face direct marketing as one should need to take when using openSUSE. And being beautiful and carefully designed as it is, it contains all information a new user needs to decide how much involved with the operating system they want to be. #2: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-01-20 02:05:37) (reply to #1) Perhaps "every" is a bit much, but I feel a lot more people should be subscribed than are currently. I find it's not uncommon to talk to people and see that they're unaware of something happening in the community that has been announced on the mailing list. The percentage of people subscribed to -announce is much less than 1% of openSUSE users, and I feel we could be reaching a lot more people. It's not an "annoying marketing strategy," it's an attempt to keep our community informed. Most of the messages that go to announce are not "marketing" in nature, they're informative. + #3: Kevin Dupuy (kdupuy9) (2009-01-20 02:49:32) (reply to #2) + I also like the idea of having more users subscribed to the -announce + list. Every time there is scheduled downtime, even though it is + announced on -announce and openSUSE News, some people come on the + opensuse(a)o.o mailinglist "eh, what happened? the servers are down, suse + is unreliable!",. so those type of mails I'd like for more users to + get. Then again perhaps not every user wants to know when the next + project meeting is, so that's a strike against the idea as well. + I do think, as with Carlos, that the address book in Kontact and + Evolution should have some important email address in there + (opensuse(a)o.o, anything else?) -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/?rm=feature_show&id=305489

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[openFate 305489] default email in email applications
by fate_noreply＠suse.de 20 Jan '09

20 Jan '09

Feature changed by: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) Feature #305489, revision 9 Title: default email in email applications openSUSE-11.2: New Priority Requester: Desirable Requested by: Martin Lasarsch (mlasars) Partner organization: openSUSE.org Description: To get more subscriptions to the mailinglists it would be nice to have a "default mail" in the mail clients (evolution, kmail) which points the user to the mailinglists. Every openSUSE user should be subscribed to opensuse-announce at least. A simple reply to this "default mail" should subscribe to the list. Of course there could be more information in it, like other important lists, pointing to the main list page. evolution have already a "default mail", with general information about evolution, kmail afaik not. This might be also usefull for OEM customers to have a welcome mail for the customers, pointing to the support pages etc.. So general email "branding" packages which makes it possible to have such special "default mails" for the email clients would be usefull. Discussion: #1: Carlos Lange (cflange) (2009-01-17 19:59:30) There are several parts to this suggestion. 1) "default mail": If you mean "Default" in the sense that when I start a new message the To: field is filled out by default with the mailing- list address, I disagree with your comment. The user should set that and an inexperienced user should find herself/himself subscribing to a mailing-list by mistake, just because they forgot to reset the To: field. Such a user would be rightly upset and feel like they were trapped into doing it. 2) If you mean, however, that the address book in Evolution and Kmail should be pre-populated with relevant addresses, such as the mailing- list and others, in the same way the Firefox bookmarks toolbar comes pre-populated with the SUSE folder, then I would agree that this is a useful suggestion, because the user can freely choose to use those addresses or not. 3) I strongly disagree that every openSUSE user should be subscribed to the opensuse-announce mailing-list. I deal with many different types of users. Only a minority of them would be interested in receiving announcements and they actively subscribe to the mailing-list. The vast majority of them likes the Linux-way of being non-intrusive, without the nags and unsolicited messages from the proprietary world, that tend to be associated with annoying marketing strategies. Please, don't advocate that for openSUSE. The SUSE information box shown at the first login is as much in-your- face direct marketing as one should need to take when using openSUSE. And being beautiful and carefully designed as it is, it contains all information a new user needs to decide how much involved with the operating system they want to be. + #2: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-01-20 02:05:37) (reply to #1) + Perhaps "every" is a bit much, but I feel a lot more people should be + subscribed than are currently. I find it's not uncommon to talk to + people and see that they're unaware of something happening in the + community that has been announced on the mailing list. The percentage + of people subscribed to -announce is much less than 1% of openSUSE + users, and I feel we could be reaching a lot more people. + It's not an "annoying marketing strategy," it's an attempt to keep our + community informed. Most of the messages that go to announce are not + "marketing" in nature, they're informative. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/?rm=feature_show&id=305489

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[openFate 304879] OOo: Update of KDE integration to KDE4
by fate_noreply＠suse.de 19 Jan '09

19 Jan '09

Feature changed by: Armin Moradi (amoradi) Feature #304879, revision 26 Title: OOo: Update of KDE integration to KDE4 openSUSE-11.1: Rejected by JP Rosevear <jpr(a)novell.com> reject date: 2008-08-15 11:47:35 reject reason: As per PM recommendation. Priority Requester: Mandatory Projectmanager: Important Requested by: Stephan Binner (beineri) Partner organization: openSUSE.org Description: The current OOo KDE integration (file dialogs, addressbook, interface/icon theme,...) is based on KDE3. As openSUSE 11.1/SLED 11 will likely not include KDE3 anymore it has to be upgraded to KDE4. Discussion: #1: Stephan Kulow (coolo) (2008-06-13 09:54:23) There are far too many mandatory OOo features. Please reevaluate - it's unlikely that we won't ship KDE3 apps in SLED11 #2: Dirk Mueller (dirkmueller) (2008-06-13 13:25:48) (reply to #1) we will ship KDE3 libs, yes. that doesn't mean that we desire to have KDE3 app dependencies ;) #7: Rajesh Ganesan (ganesanrajesh) (2009-01-07 03:20:08) Well, an excellent idea and most expected too. But (http://kde.openoffice.org/) seems struck at March 2006 itself. Any plans(or chance) of revival? + #8: Armin Moradi (amoradi) (2009-01-19 19:30:45) + Excellent idea, again, this brings up the consistency issue with the + rest of KDE4. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/?rm=feature_show&id=304879

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[openFate 300758] Show orphaned packages
by fate_noreply＠suse.de 19 Jan '09

19 Jan '09

Feature changed by: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) Feature #300758, revision 45 Title: Show orphaned packages openSUSE-10.2: Rejected by Thorsten Kukuk <kukuk(a)novell.com> reject date: 2006-08-02 11:31:19 reject reason: For SL10.2 we have to get libzypp really stable and fast before we add new features. Priority Requester: Important openSUSE-10.3: Rejected by Stanislav Visnovsky <visnov(a)novell.com> reject date: 2007-07-17 17:03:57 reject reason: Postponing. Priority Requester: Important Projectmanager: Desirable openSUSE-11.0: Rejected by Stanislav Visnovsky <visnov(a)novell.com> reject date: 2007-11-21 12:16:20 reject reason: Out of scope for 11.0 Priority Requester: Important openSUSE-11.1: Rejected by Stanislav Visnovsky <visnov(a)novell.com> reject date: 2008-07-07 13:34:02 reject reason: Postponing, needs underlaying infrastructure to be fixed first. Priority Requester: Important openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Stephan Binner (beineri) Partner organization: openSUSE.org Description: The package manager should learn to show orphanized packages (packages which are not required by other packages and are not in wanted selections) and allow to deinstall them like the popular debfoster/deborphan tools. A typical use case: user installs an application which pulls in some dependencies to test it, uninstalls the application shortly after or way later but the dependencies stay unused installed on the system. Commandline UI (zypper) only. References: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=166132 Discussion: #1: Jiri Srain (jsrain) (2007-06-05 13:46:00) Schubi, is there any possibility to make solver tell which packages are orphanized? It would be interesting especially if the packages which are marked for deletion were considered as non-installed (eg. if foo- devel is installed but marked for deletion and nothing else requires foo, then foo is orphanized). #2: Stefan Schubert (schubi2) (2007-06-06 11:04:04) (reply to #1) Currently not cause the solver has no information about who (user, package,...) has triggered the installation of a package. If we are storing this information it would be possible for solver to remove these kind of packages too. It is not simple but doable. By the way, we will have to store this kind of information in the future. E.g. we need to save the "keep state by user" in a database in order to regard this state in future solver runs. #3: Jiri Srain (jsrain) (2007-06-06 14:25:07) (reply to #2) Looks like a missunderstanding. Basically every package wihch is not required/recommended/suggested or doesn't enhance anything that is installed and not marked for deletion is IMO considered to be orphanized. If user eg. wants to remove a pattern including all its packages (which are not required by something else), solver providing this kind of information would help a lot (and I don't think that we would need any other information to be stored. #4: Stefan Schubert (schubi2) (2007-06-06 15:33:44) (reply to #3) I do not think so. What does "orphanized" mean ? Let me take your example from comment #1. foo should be deleted too if the user delete foo-devel and foo has been installed due the requirement of foo-devel. BUT the user will kill us if we are deleting foo although the user has installed foo explicit sometime ago in a seperate installation workflow. So this information ( The USER has installed foo) will be currently not saved and is needed here to decide if foo has to be deleted or not. #5: Stefan Schubert (schubi2) (2007-06-06 15:39:47) (reply to #3) Lets take your example concerning the erasing of patterns. That is much more complex. I have already described the problem here: http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp/Solver#Known_Problems " Proper behaviour of erasing patterns" There are already some bugzilla entries: Bug 274283 - Delete iFolder from YaST makes eDirectory Delete mandatory Bug 238250 - YaST does not upgrade an Add-on Product #6: Jiri Srain (jsrain) (2007-06-08 16:46:32) See also https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=166132 This is another use case for the same solver functionality #8: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2008-06-12 20:46:17) this should be commandline-only, definitely an advanced-user option. #9: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2008-06-12 20:47:28) cut from description: See Bug 140346 #10: Duncan Mac-Vicar (dmacvicar) (2008-11-03 11:24:53) As discussed in Prague, this could be done using the package history once we have a reader. #11: Karsten König (remur) (2009-01-19 10:09:49) How about using rpmorphan, I agree with flucifredi about the command line idea... http://rpmorphan.sourceforge.net/ And otherwise you could use their system to find orphanized packages and display them in yast but make clear that deleting -all orphanized packages will also delete the ones explicitly installed... (it only detects wether the package fullfiles any requirement...) #12: Ján Kupec (jkupec) (2009-01-19 14:48:38) (reply to #11) I'm not the solver developer, but i'm pretty sure it's easy (and probably more effective) to find the 'leaf' packages (that's what rpmorphan seems to do) using existing solver (see satsolver package). But we don't want to just highlight leaf packages, we want to remove unused packages, that is all leaves minus those explicitly installed. So we will feed the solver with this 'explicitly-installed' information. The package history will be the source of this info for now. Maybe later we find some way to store this info that could be used across tools (e.g. directly in the rpm db). So rpmorphan will be able to use this info as well. + #13: Pavol Rusnak (prusnak) (2009-01-19 15:44:26) (reply to #12) + Yes, that's good idea. Detecting leaf packages is the first step. + Detecting which ones to remove (i.e. not explicitly installed) is the + second. + I think that rpmorphan shows all leaf packages, but it selects only the + ones that start with "lib". If we strictly followed library packaging + policy that would do the trick. + btw. rpmorphan is packaged in Contrib + (http://en.opensuse.org/Contrib) -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/?rm=feature_show&id=300758

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[openFate 300758] Show orphaned packages
by fate_noreply＠suse.de 19 Jan '09

19 Jan '09

Feature changed by: Ján Kupec (jkupec) Feature #300758, revision 44 Title: Show orphaned packages openSUSE-10.2: Rejected by Thorsten Kukuk <kukuk(a)novell.com> reject date: 2006-08-02 11:31:19 reject reason: For SL10.2 we have to get libzypp really stable and fast before we add new features. Priority Requester: Important openSUSE-10.3: Rejected by Stanislav Visnovsky <visnov(a)novell.com> reject date: 2007-07-17 17:03:57 reject reason: Postponing. Priority Requester: Important Projectmanager: Desirable openSUSE-11.0: Rejected by Stanislav Visnovsky <visnov(a)novell.com> reject date: 2007-11-21 12:16:20 reject reason: Out of scope for 11.0 Priority Requester: Important openSUSE-11.1: Rejected by Stanislav Visnovsky <visnov(a)novell.com> reject date: 2008-07-07 13:34:02 reject reason: Postponing, needs underlaying infrastructure to be fixed first. Priority Requester: Important openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Stephan Binner (beineri) Interested: Andreas Jaeger (a_jaeger) Interested: Andrey S (seld) Interested: Bernhard Friedreich (bernhard1234) Interested: Ján Kupec (jkupec) Interested: Matthias Eckermann (mge1512) + Interested: Michael Schröder (mlschroe) Interested: Pedro Canovas (pedrogeek) Interested: Rémy Marquis (spyhawk) Interested: Ruchir Brahmbhatt (ruchir) Interested: Santiago Hirschfeld (jsantiagoh) Interested: Stefan Ott (steve_odd) Interested: Vincent Untz (vuntz) Partner organization: openSUSE.org Description: The package manager should learn to show orphanized packages (packages which are not required by other packages and are not in wanted selections) and allow to deinstall them like the popular debfoster/deborphan tools. A typical use case: user installs an application which pulls in some dependencies to test it, uninstalls the application shortly after or way later but the dependencies stay unused installed on the system. Commandline UI (zypper) only. References: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=166132 Discussion: #1: Jiri Srain (jsrain) (2007-06-05 13:46:00) Schubi, is there any possibility to make solver tell which packages are orphanized? It would be interesting especially if the packages which are marked for deletion were considered as non-installed (eg. if foo- devel is installed but marked for deletion and nothing else requires foo, then foo is orphanized). #2: Stefan Schubert (schubi2) (2007-06-06 11:04:04) (reply to #1) Currently not cause the solver has no information about who (user, package,...) has triggered the installation of a package. If we are storing this information it would be possible for solver to remove these kind of packages too. It is not simple but doable. By the way, we will have to store this kind of information in the future. E.g. we need to save the "keep state by user" in a database in order to regard this state in future solver runs. #3: Jiri Srain (jsrain) (2007-06-06 14:25:07) (reply to #2) Looks like a missunderstanding. Basically every package wihch is not required/recommended/suggested or doesn't enhance anything that is installed and not marked for deletion is IMO considered to be orphanized. If user eg. wants to remove a pattern including all its packages (which are not required by something else), solver providing this kind of information would help a lot (and I don't think that we would need any other information to be stored. #4: Stefan Schubert (schubi2) (2007-06-06 15:33:44) (reply to #3) I do not think so. What does "orphanized" mean ? Let me take your example from comment #1. foo should be deleted too if the user delete foo-devel and foo has been installed due the requirement of foo-devel. BUT the user will kill us if we are deleting foo although the user has installed foo explicit sometime ago in a seperate installation workflow. So this information ( The USER has installed foo) will be currently not saved and is needed here to decide if foo has to be deleted or not. #5: Stefan Schubert (schubi2) (2007-06-06 15:39:47) (reply to #3) Lets take your example concerning the erasing of patterns. That is much more complex. I have already described the problem here: http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp/Solver#Known_Problems " Proper behaviour of erasing patterns" There are already some bugzilla entries: Bug 274283 - Delete iFolder from YaST makes eDirectory Delete mandatory Bug 238250 - YaST does not upgrade an Add-on Product #6: Jiri Srain (jsrain) (2007-06-08 16:46:32) See also https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=166132 This is another use case for the same solver functionality #8: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2008-06-12 20:46:17) this should be commandline-only, definitely an advanced-user option. #9: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2008-06-12 20:47:28) cut from description: See Bug 140346 #10: Duncan Mac-Vicar (dmacvicar) (2008-11-03 11:24:53) As discussed in Prague, this could be done using the package history once we have a reader. #11: Karsten König (remur) (2009-01-19 10:09:49) How about using rpmorphan, I agree with flucifredi about the command line idea... http://rpmorphan.sourceforge.net/ And otherwise you could use their system to find orphanized packages and display them in yast but make clear that deleting -all orphanized packages will also delete the ones explicitly installed... (it only detects wether the package fullfiles any requirement...) + #12: Ján Kupec (jkupec) (2009-01-19 14:48:38) (reply to #11) + I'm not the solver developer, but i'm pretty sure it's easy (and + probably more effective) to find the 'leaf' packages (that's what + rpmorphan seems to do) using existing solver (see satsolver package). + But we don't want to just highlight leaf packages, we want to remove + unused packages, that is all leaves minus those explicitly installed. + So we will feed the solver with this 'explicitly-installed' + information. The package history will be the source of this info for + now. Maybe later we find some way to store this info that could be used + across tools (e.g. directly in the rpm db). So rpmorphan will be able + to use this info as well. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/?rm=feature_show&id=300758

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[openFate 305634] Debian-like dist-upgrade live system full version upgrade
by fate_noreply＠suse.de 19 Jan '09

19 Jan '09

Feature changed by: Sebastian Siebert (Freespacer) Feature #305634, revision 32 Title: Debian-like dist-upgrade live system full version upgrade openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Mandatory Requested by: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) Interested: Alexey Gaponik (hedgehog77) Interested: Andre Duffeck (aduffeck) Interested: Andrey Karepin (egdfree) Interested: Bernhard Friedreich (bernhard1234) Interested: Bruno Friedmann (bruno_friedmann) Interested: Francis Giannaros (apokryphos) Interested: Guy Lunardi (glunardi) Interested: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) Interested: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) Interested: JP Rosevear (jproseve) Interested: Klaus Kämpf (kwk) Interested: Mario Carrion (mariocarrion) Interested: Markus K (kamikazow) Interested: Matthias Eckermann (mge1512) Interested: Maxi Schimmel (maxxs) Interested: Richard Weinberger (derrichard) Interested: Robert Davies (robopensuse) Interested: Sebastian Rösgen (palimpseste) + Interested: Sebastian Siebert (freespacer) Interested: Stefan Behlert (sbehlert) Interested: Stephan Binner (beineri) Interested: Stephan Kulow (coolo) Interested: Thorsten Kukuk (kukuk) Interested: Victor Prosolin (prosolin) Partner organization: openSUSE.org Description: With the 11.2 cycle, we want to offer users the ability to perform a live system upgrade in the manner of Debian's dist-upgrade. For the purpose of this cycle, we want to support dist-upgrade from the previous version (11.1) only, as this is a sufficiently complicated problem as is. From the user's view, the difference is between being able to update the system incrementally within the given version or service pack running, to being ble to migrate with a system command ("zypper dup" or similar) to a higher version altogether. In the Debian experience, the set of base distributions is not necessarily limited, but it has been Ubuntu's practice to define what starting points other than "release n-1" are allowed (for instance, all LTS versions are purported to be able to "apt dist-upgrade" to the top of the line, although I have heard of problems trying to jump two years - 6.06->8.10 - in a fell swoop in this manner :-). In the openSUSE scope, we should aim to be able to "dup" between incremental versions, starting from 11.1 to 11.2, and later 11.x to 12.0. Business case (Partner benefit): openSUSE.org: With the introduction of the Zypper stack to SLE, we finally reached the state of a featureful (which YOU was not) and fast, reliable (which ZLM was not) update stack in the platform. For enterprise use, some tweaks are still desirable (changelogs, rollback, ...) which we are looking at, as well as improvements on the Enterprise management front, which we are working on with our SRM colleagues. The only really significant competitive feature we are missing at this point is the Debian/Ubuntu dist-upgrade functionality, which has a powerful psychological impact at the Enterprise level and a much more tangible impact at the small user / single user level: many with no IT department do use Ubuntu these days on the basis that "chasing" Fedora and openSUSE along the six-month upgrade cycle is too much for them, and feel they can save time on Ubuntu with the combination of dist- upgrade and the longer LTS cycle. The rationale for pursuing this is to revoke the special status of coolness this functionality gives Ubuntu, and to terminate the negative influence that may have on our SLE sales (from the expert's personal opinion, the preference then easily spills into purchasing). Discussion: #1: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-01-07 20:42:15) This is the #1 feature in the systems management scope for 11.2 - I have no doubt it will be fun :-) #4: Klaus Kämpf (kwk) (2009-01-09 11:32:53) Passing to mls for technical evaluation (solver + autobuild) #5: Michael Schröder (mlschroe) (2009-01-09 12:48:10) Any hint on what features are currently missing? #6: Klaus Kämpf (kwk) (2009-01-09 13:30:57) (reply to #5) From the top of my head: How to handle * Library ABI changes (e.g. major gcc/g++ upgrades) ? * Core package changes (e.g. devs.rpm to udev) ? * Kernel changes (if application/deamons need a specific kernel abi, dbus comes into mind) ? * Failure handling (network breakdown, package update errors, ...) ? * Booting of the new kernel ? #7: Michael Schröder (mlschroe) (2009-01-09 14:45:09) (reply to #6) And debian does this in some way? #8: Robert Davies (robopensuse) (2009-01-17 12:43:42) (reply to #7) The distupgrade feature differs from changing source list and doing upgrade, so some utility process could be started. They may require some documented procedure to be followed, for "tough" changes. But ABI change, how long since ELF/glibc was introduced? C++ ABI ought not be relevant for upgrade process, they are "just" applications and libaries to be updated. Failure handling - you are told to back up your system first, it is "best effort" not guaranteed. The less you have installed the more likely it is to succeed. Debian offer choice of kernels, this may "punt" the problem to a user controlled install and select from GRUB menu. Debian have apt-cache possibility, to create central pool of packages, to decrease liklihood of network troubles, as well as huge number CD and DVD iso's. #9: Thorsten Kukuk (kukuk) (2009-01-17 15:24:35) (reply to #8) The glibc internal ABI changes frequently. Means, running applications will continue to use the old glibc with the old ABI, but installed are already the new plugins => running applications can crash. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/?rm=feature_show&id=305634

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[openFate 303532] Reduce size of updates for openSUSE Factory
by fate_noreply＠suse.de 19 Jan '09

19 Jan '09

Feature changed by: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) Feature #303532, revision 21 Title: Reduce size of updates for openSUSE Factory Buildservice: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Projectmanager: Important openSUSE-11.0: Rejected by Stephan Kulow <coolo(a)novell.com> reject date: 2008-06-06 09:06:29 reject reason: not really attached to a specific openSUSE version Priority Requester: Important Projectmanager: Important openSUSE-11.1: Rejected by Adrian Schröter <adrian(a)novell.com> reject date: 2008-11-06 16:10:03 reject reason: This is a build service feature, but no distribution feature. Priority Requester: Important Projectmanager: Important Requested by: Michael Loeffler (sprudel24) Interested: Andrey Karepin (egdfree) Interested: Duncan Mac-Vicar (dmacvicar) Interested: Gerald Pfeifer (geraldpfeifer) + Interested: Jakub Rusinek (liviopl) Interested: Klaas Freitag (kfreitag) Interested: Lukas Lipavsky (llipavsky) Interested: Maxi Schimmel (maxxs) Interested: Michal Marek (michal-m) Interested: Peter Poeml (poeml) Interested: Ruchir Brahmbhatt (ruchir) Interested: Ruediger Oertel (oertel) Interested: Stephan Kulow (coolo) Interested: Vincent Untz (vuntz) Interested: Vitaliy Tomin (highwaystar) Interested: Vitaliy Tomin (highwaystar) Partner organization: openSUSE.org Description: Each update currently is around 2GB which is already much for broadband bandwith. For user with less bandwith it's by and large impossible to use Factory. Goal is to reduce size of updates and stay with frequent updates to offer latest software to the user. As we want more people using Factory it's usage needs to be conveniant. Discussion: #1: Stephan Kulow (coolo) (2008-03-27 16:48:43) According to discussions with Rudi and mls, the delta setup on dist need to be changed to also contain the rpm header and the deltas need to be indexed in a way that zypp will see them. So we can still use drpmsync for internal distribution and put the deltas only in instsource for mirrors. #2: Duncan Mac-Vicar (dmacvicar) (2008-04-22 13:28:56) This will happen automatically once the remaining parts of libzypp deltarpm handling are finished. We only need to agree on the format. I will propose something today. #3: Duncan Mac-Vicar (dmacvicar) (2008-05-26 17:09:31) ZYpp side is done. The only thing that needs to be done is to generate the deltarpm metadata in factory. I will post link to documentation and examples shortly. #4: Gerald Pfeifer (geraldpfeifer) (2009-01-03 14:54:00) Opening this up for openSUSE.org. #5: Stephan Kulow (coolo) (2009-01-16 08:24:42) ok, we discussed this a bit further. We plan to throw away builds that are equal to the previous build and publish deltas generated by the build clients if they are not equal. If a build is equal is to be defined, for now it's a shell script that checks various properties - and works acceptable for now. I rebuild a good portion of 11.1 without further changes and get 7345 binary rpms (including all subpackages). 5666 are considered equal by my current script (based on work by Michael Matz). And many of other packages are possible to fix, so they are equal too. So this gives for uneffected rebuilds a huge reduction of updates. The kernels and kmps are currently seen as !equal after an uneffected rebuild as they put the %release (rebuild counter) in many places. Not sure how much the script should work around such cases. But even for those the download size would reduce: kernel-default.i586 (with base and extra): 25.7MB to download deltas of it: 6.7MB (I think the kernel puts a lot of "rebuild on" info in the code) -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/?rm=feature_show&id=303532

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