El domingo, 21 de mayo de 2023 13:44:13 (CEST) Jacob Michalskie escribió:

On So, Mai 21 2023 at 11:32:22 -0000, Ayhem Kahri

wrote:

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Hi everyone,

I'm writing to request that the cover of the r/opensuse subreddit be changed. Currently, when you hover over the cover, the logo changes to LGBTQ colors. I believe that the cover of a technology subreddit should not be oriented towards any particular group or ideology.

Ah, right, I set this up 2 or 4 years ago for the pride month and forgot to change it, I understand you may find it jarring, that colour choice was not the best. Since then we tend to use more pastel colours for pride month icons and logos. Since it's pride month in a week or so, I may update it to pastels there as well, if I don't forget.

It seems that you have forgotten to celebrate programmer's day, volunteer's day, mother's day, father's day, worker's day, women's day, families' day, ... :-(( Greetings, -- Javier Llorente

El domingo, 21 de mayo de 2023 23:23:48 (CEST) Jacob Michalskie escribió:

On So, Mai 21 2023 at 23:06:39 +0200, Javier Llorente

wrote:

...

It seems that you have forgotten to celebrate programmer's day, volunteer's day, mother's day, father's day, worker's day, women's day, families' day, ...

:-((

It is a bit less time consuming to create an image for 1/12 of the year compared to 1/365, especially when it's just a mask with a few colours. I do invite you to contribute to the artwork team though if you would like to help out with artwork, there's quite a lot that is needed for artwork refresh for the upcoming year, I would appreciate it!

Less consuming is not creating an image at all :-P Celebrating one day and not others is not very inclusive :-( Celebrating many days would mean creating more images, thus more work. Another option would be not celebrating any day, except for openSUSE's birthday :-) Greetings, -- Javier Llorente

ITT: four people tell the same joke five times On Mon, May 22, 2023, 7:07 AM Kilian Hanich wrote:

Am 22.05.23 um 13:48 schrieb Javier Llorente:

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El domingo, 21 de mayo de 2023 23:23:48 (CEST) Jacob Michalskie escribió:

...

On So, Mai 21 2023 at 23:06:39 +0200, Javier Llorente

wrote:

...

It seems that you have forgotten to celebrate programmer's day, volunteer's day, mother's day, father's day, worker's day, women's day, families' day, ...

:-((

It is a bit less time consuming to create an image for 1/12 of the year compared to 1/365, especially when it's just a mask with a few colours. I do invite you to contribute to the artwork team though if you would like to help out with artwork, there's quite a lot that is needed for artwork refresh for the upcoming year, I would appreciate it!

Less consuming is not creating an image at all :-P Celebrating one day and not others is not very inclusive :-( Celebrating many days would mean creating more images, thus more work. Another option would be not celebrating any day, except for openSUSE's birthday :-)

Greetings,

Quite frankly, there is some truth to this. If we do that I think we should also celebrate Ramadan, Christmas (although you could argue that it should be Easter instead) and whatever other religions have, since at least these two also have a duration of about a month.

But besides that, why did the logo change already? Starting to celebrate something before it's due is just ... wrong.

Sincerely

Kilian Hanich

On Tuesday 2023-05-23 05:09, Attila Pinter via openSUSE Factory wrote:

We finalized the CoC a little while back to try and avoid issues like this, but here we are.

[...] our intention is to promote inclusion [...] the rainbow logo proved to be a great way of filtering out [...]

The CoC is unnecessarily verbose in the wrong spots, and too concise in others. It does not address the elephant in the room, either. Proposal for a fix, inspired by the WTFPL license terms' brevity: echo "0. Stay the fuck on-topic." >Code-of-Conduct.md Please?

On 2023-05-23 15:05, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Attila Pinter via openSUSE Factory

...

But I digress. By having the rainbow logo up on Reddit and Telegram our intention is to show support for oppressed communities, individuals, and to promote inclusion within the community. We do welcome everyone no matter where you from, what is your religion, or what you identify as. There are guard rails in place to protect everyone from attacks. And yes the rainbow logo proved to be a great way of filtering out toxic individuals with a non-inclusive, disrespectful behavior early on, this is not a secret.

that is a "political" stance and should be completely outside any consideration for a linux distribution.

The above stance from Attila is not "political" It's perfectly consistent with our very long standing Guiding Principles of this Project "We value respect for other persons and their contributions, for other opinions and beliefs. We listen to arguments and address problems in a constructive and open way. We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offence. " Disagreeing with Attila's stance places you on the wrong side of both the Guiding Principles and our Code of Conduct, which are very important pieces that make this Project an inviting place for a great many people. And without people making them, you wont have any Linux distributions, so it's the people who matter. -- Richard Brown Distributions Architect SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Frankenstraße 146, D-90461 Nuremberg, Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Directors/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Martje Boudien Moerman

Op dinsdag 23 mei 2023 15:24:18 CEST schreef Richard Brown:

On 2023-05-23 15:05, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Attila Pinter via openSUSE Factory

...

But I digress. By having the rainbow logo up on Reddit and Telegram our intention is to show support for oppressed communities, individuals, and to promote inclusion within the community. We do welcome everyone no matter where you from, what is your religion, or what you identify as. There are guard rails in place to protect everyone from attacks. And yes the rainbow logo proved to be a great way of filtering out toxic individuals with a non-inclusive, disrespectful behavior early on, this is not a secret.

that is a "political" stance and should be completely outside any consideration for a linux distribution.

The above stance from Attila is not "political"

It's perfectly consistent with our very long standing Guiding Principles of this Project

"We value respect for other persons and their contributions, for other opinions and beliefs. We listen to arguments and address problems in a constructive and open way. We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offence. "

Disagreeing with Attila's stance places you on the wrong side of both the Guiding Principles and our Code of Conduct, which are very important pieces that make this Project an inviting place for a great many people.

And without people making them, you wont have any Linux distributions, so it's the people who matter. I fully agree. Both to Attila and Richard. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board openSUSE Forums Team

* Jim Henderson [05-24-23 12:01]:

On Tue, 23 May 2023 18:33:26 +0200, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

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I fully agree. Both to Attila and Richard.

Same here. I have also updated the Facebook group's rules to correct the oversight of the CoC not being explicitly referenced there. If someone who maintains the list of where the CoC applies could update the list on the Wiki page (I don't want to step on anyone's toes with that page), that would be appreciated.

“If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them” -- Karl Popper

and really, what does any of that have to do with a technology forum. we are *not* political, we are technology. we *should* abstain from *any* political discussion aside internal opensuse points. we should NOT foster/further/support/deride/... ANY political agenda! technology is our forte and our ONLY forte! -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc

* Sam Exner [05-24-23 14:56]:

It's honestly embarrassing and concerning that someone with an openSUSE email is being so obtuse, or maybe just disrespectful here. I'm queer and it is not a political issue. openSUSE can fly my flag to support me and it is still not a political issue. LGBTQ+ people are not a monolith of a singular political belief, Patrick, and you are being a bigot for asserting that we are. And nobody is being disrespectful to you by pointing out that you are being hostile towards our community members by calling me a "politic". Get over yourself or maybe leave.

On Wed, May 24, 2023, 12:46 PM Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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...

On Tue, 23 May 2023 18:33:26 +0200, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

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I fully agree. Both to Attila and Richard.

Same here. I have also updated the Facebook group's rules to correct

...

oversight of the CoC not being explicitly referenced there. If someone who maintains the list of where the CoC applies could update the list on the Wiki page (I don't want to step on anyone's toes with that page),

...

would be appreciated.

“If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of

* Jim Henderson [05-24-23 12:01]: the that the

...

intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them” -- Karl Popper

and really, what does any of that have to do with a technology forum. we are *not* political, we are technology. we *should* abstain from *any* political discussion aside internal opensuse points.

we should NOT foster/further/support/deride/... ANY political agenda!

technology is our forte and our ONLY forte!

maybe you should obtain the meaning of "political". I care not what or who you are but this "technology" forum is not the place for you to further your personal agenda. please cool off and enjoy the rest of the day. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc

You are saying I am bringing a personal agenda into this and you were the first and only person to literally bring race into the thread which is absolutely bat guano for a contributor to be doing. Who is being political? Who? On Wed, May 24, 2023, 1:03 PM Sam Exner wrote:

My point is that I have the right to be subscribed to this mailing list without bigots like you spamming me with obtuse reasoning about why rainbow flag bad. YOU badly need to look in the mirror. God bless.

On Wed, May 24, 2023, 1:01 PM Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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...

It's honestly embarrassing and concerning that someone with an openSUSE email is being so obtuse, or maybe just disrespectful here. I'm queer and it is not a political issue. openSUSE can fly my flag to support me and it is still not a political issue. LGBTQ+ people are not a monolith of a singular political belief, Patrick, and you are being a bigot for asserting that we are. And nobody is being disrespectful to you by pointing out

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you are being hostile towards our community members by calling me a "politic". Get over yourself or maybe leave.

On Wed, May 24, 2023, 12:46 PM Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...

On Tue, 23 May 2023 18:33:26 +0200, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

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I fully agree. Both to Attila and Richard.

Same here. I have also updated the Facebook group's rules to correct

* Jim Henderson [05-24-23 12:01]: the

...

oversight of the CoC not being explicitly referenced there. If someone who maintains the list of where the CoC applies could update the

...

...

...

the Wiki page (I don't want to step on anyone's toes with that

...

...

...

would be appreciated.

“If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of

that the

...

intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with

* Sam Exner [05-24-23 14:56]: that list on page), them”

...

...

...

-- Karl Popper

and really, what does any of that have to do with a technology forum. we are *not* political, we are technology. we *should* abstain from *any* political discussion aside internal opensuse points.

we should NOT foster/further/support/deride/... ANY political agenda!

technology is our forte and our ONLY forte!

maybe you should obtain the meaning of "political". I care not what or who you are but this "technology" forum is not the place for you to further your personal agenda.

please cool off and enjoy the rest of the day.

-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc

Am 24.05.23 um 21:14 schrieb Pablo Sanchez:

On 2023-05-24 15:00, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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maybe you should obtain the meaning of "political".

Given the Merriam-Webster definition below, I don't see the rainbow flag being at all "political"   Not by  any stretch.

Would you please cite a reputable website that defines "political" as you see it and how having a rainbow flag fits as being political?

::: Definition :::

1a: of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government 1b: of, relating to, or concerned with the making as distinguished from the administration of governmental policy

2: of, relating to, involving, or involved in politics and especially party politics 3: organized in governmental terms political units 4: involving or charged or concerned with acts against a government or a political system

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/political

Here a different definition about "Politik" from the "Bundeszentrale für politische Bildung" ("Federal Institution for Political Education"), translations are done by me: 1) Im klassischen (aus dem griech. »polis« abgeleiteten) Sinne bezeichnet P. Staatskunst, das Öffentliche bzw. das, was alle Bürgerinnen und Bürger betrifft und verpflichtet, i. w. S. das Handeln des Staates und das Handeln in staatlichen Angelegenheiten. (Translation: In the classical sense is politics identified as everything which applies and obligates to citizen. In further sense actions by the state and acts related to state affairs.) 2) P. bezeichnet die aktive Teilnahme an der Gestaltung und Regelung menschlicher Gemeinwesen. (Translation: Politics denotes the active participation on shaping and regulating human community.) 3) Bezogen auf moderne Staatswesen, bezeichnet P. ein aktives Handeln, das a) auf die Beeinflussung staatlicher Macht, b) den Erwerb von Führungspositionen und c) die Ausübung von Regierungsverantwortung zielt. (Translation: Relating to modern states, politics identifies active acts which aim to a) influence state power, b) acquire leading positions and c) performing government responsibility.) In case of openSUSE 2) applies. Anyway, the actual reason why I am writing here is another: the core problem at hand. openSUSE and the free software movement is a political movement at its core. I think at least most people know that. LGBTQ is made up of two parts: LGBTQ people (I don't know if that's the right term here, but I hope everyone understands what I mean) and the political movement about bettering their position in societies. A lot of people like to separate different political movements. They want to have one community for one thing (e.g. the free software movement) and another for another topic (e.g. the political movement part of LGBTQ). Depending on where somebody comes from that can be the norm or weird. Same goes for mixing different topics. Now, what is the meaning flying this flag? Well, that depends on who you ask, but it can very well be interpreted as supporting the other political movement which a lot of people may not like, even if they support it. As you can maybe imagine from that, it means that there will always be people who will be against flying this flag, I even know of a lot of LGBTQ people who do for this reason (besides the fact that it barely even does anything; it was originally meant to make them known, but at this points this is the case, but I digress). Last but not least, I want to say two things here: 1. Not flying the flag does not mean accpeint homophobes. 2. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity or ignorance. Sincerely Kilian Hanich

On 2023-05-25 13:25, Javier Llorente wrote:

Exactly. Some years ago openSUSE didn't use the rainbow flag. Was the openSUSE Community less tolerant back then?

Yes it was Progress has been made Please try to keep up -- Richard Brown Distributions Architect SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Frankenstraße 146, D-90461 Nuremberg, Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Directors/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Martje Boudien Moerman

On Wed, 24 May 2023 14:46:39 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

and really, what does any of that have to do with a technology forum. we are *not* political, we are technology. we *should* abstain from *any* political discussion aside internal opensuse points.

we should NOT foster/further/support/deride/... ANY political agenda!

technology is our forte and our ONLY forte!

Our community is our forte. Without our community, *the project doesn't exist*. It isn't political, it's a fact of any open project - without the people involved in it, the project ceases to exist. An inclusive community is *critical* to the project, and those who don't think that's the case know where the door is. That's all I have to say to you on this matter. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 9:32 AM Peter Czanik wrote:

On 5/23/23 15:05, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...

We finalized the CoC a little while back to try and avoid issues like this, but here we are. It is honestly saddens me that this mentality is still present, but if we are here already lets discuss.

"Celebrating one day and not others is not very inclusive" Everyone is free to submit artwork of logos - and other pictures - for different holidays which the mods of the different channels can change if approved and found appropriate. This was never an issue, and was always possible However, last I checked for example Christianity wasn't facing much oppression in the world, and didn't require much (if any) support. With that said it would be cool to have a Geeko logo wearing a Santa hat during the Christmas holidays :)

But I digress. By having the rainbow logo up on Reddit and Telegram our intention is to show support for oppressed communities, individuals, and to promote inclusion within the community. We do welcome everyone no matter where you from, what is your religion, or what you identify as. There are guard rails in place to protect everyone from attacks. And yes the rainbow logo proved to be a great way of filtering out toxic individuals with a non-inclusive, disrespectful behavior early on, this is not a secret.

* Attila Pinter via openSUSE Factory [05-22-23 23:11]: that is a "political" stance and should be completely outside any consideration for a linux distribution.

Fully agree.

You've forgotten that the development of Linux distributions are fundamentally political ventures. FOSS is not a technical choice, it's a sociopolitical and philosophical one. And when you're run by volunteers, signaling that we are supportive of people that are oppressed/marginalized and disproportionately part of tech communities ensure we are able to show the best people that we're welcoming to them to work with us. This is supported by our Guiding Principles and our Code of Conduct. If you don't like it, get over it or leave. This position is supported by the openSUSE Board for the whole openSUSE Project across all openSUSE venues. -- Neal Gompa (ID: Pharaoh_Atem)

On Tuesday, May 23rd, 2023 at 8:05 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Attila Pinter via openSUSE Factory factory@lists.opensuse.org [05-22-23 23:11]:

...

We finalized the CoC a little while back to try and avoid issues like this, but here we are. It is honestly saddens me that this mentality is still present, but if we are here already lets discuss.

"Celebrating one day and not others is not very inclusive" Everyone is free to submit artwork of logos - and other pictures - for different holidays which the mods of the different channels can change if approved and found appropriate. This was never an issue, and was always possible However, last I checked for example Christianity wasn't facing much oppression in the world, and didn't require much (if any) support. With that said it would be cool to have a Geeko logo wearing a Santa hat during the Christmas holidays :)

But I digress. By having the rainbow logo up on Reddit and Telegram our intention is to show support for oppressed communities, individuals, and to promote inclusion within the community. We do welcome everyone no matter where you from, what is your religion, or what you identify as. There are guard rails in place to protect everyone from attacks. And yes the rainbow logo proved to be a great way of filtering out toxic individuals with a non-inclusive, disrespectful behavior early on, this is not a secret.

that is a "political" stance and should be completely outside any consideration for a linux distribution.

...

Anyhow if you find it important to raise your concerns about a rainbow picture, jump into "whataboutism", and attack members of the community so publicly instead of showing kindness, being inclusive, and respecting the Code of Conduct in place then you might have some thinking to do. However, if you strongly believe that you're right to raise such concerns, and personally attack others you might want to look for a community that is in line with your believes, since this community might not for you.

you address the "concern" rather than the stance. it is a linux distribution, not a political platform.

...

Please read the Code of Conduct1, understand it, feel free to raise your questions if any, but more importantly I kindly request compliance as such breaches cannot be accepted.

maybe politics should be mentioned there.

-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc

If you honestly believe that being kind, or showing respect to other human beings within this community, or out on the streets, or at your work has anything to do with politics you have some real serious problems to deal with. I'll be straight with you: it is my opinion that you're a disgrace to this project, and you should've been banned permanently a long time ago. The fact that you're still a member is an insult to the openSUSE community, and to the Members. Feel free to take that as my official "political statement". A.

as you made this post both private(direct) and on-list, should you not personally abide by the CoC, yourself rather than publically deriding any individual?

Wanted to make sure that you don't miss it ;)

I made no statement against any one individual or group. And I stand that openSUSE as a community should not be involved in politics and as such should not profess support or lack of support for minority or majority groups. and that is "Politics" 101!

Last I checked nobody was forcing you to be here, to use the products, or to take part in the discussion. You and anyone else who feels the same are free to stand up, walk away, and seek other like minded communities where you can freely express your toxicity. Sorry to disappoint, but this is not that community.

thankyou for your kind words.

Not a problem at all. A.

Pup(Puppy. Where I Live it is dogs that are in there beginning of life. Their Polar dogs parents.. 40-50kg will give guidance. Developer? At least MS think so, -watching MS build from Seattle right now. Otherwise I don't care what people do in bed. Try not to announce and use the Lizard for that purpose.

I've made a mistake and am here to clarify. that message was originally meant for Callum F. not you, for that I apologize.

On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 12:42 PM Richy wrote:

Am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023, 13:32:22 CEST schrieb Ayhem Kahri:

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Hi everyone,

...

...

I'm writing to request that the cover of the r/opensuse subreddit be

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changed. Currently, when you hover over the cover, the logo changes to

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LGBTQ colors. I believe that the cover of a technology subreddit should not

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be oriented towards any particular group or ideology.

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...

I think the cover would be more appropriate if it simply displayed the

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r/opensuse logo, without any additional colors or text. This would make the

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subreddit more welcoming to everyone, regardless of their background or

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beliefs.

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Thank you for your time.

Warum?

Was stößt Dich dermaßen ab, dass Du dafür extra einen Thread eröffnest?

Lass´ dem Kollegen doch seine künstlerische Freiheit.

Sie verletzt niemanden und tut auch niemanden weh.

Wie wär´s mit ein bisschen mehr Raum für alles was nix kaputt macht.

In diesem Sinne ein schönes Restwochenende

---

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,

Richard Werth

While your message is definitely appreciated (and I agree with your sentiment!), please post in English so that everyone subscribed to the list understands what's being said. For everyone else, please note that the Code of Conduct[1] applies to this mailing list and every other openSUSE venue. Best regards, Neal P.S. footnotes: [1]: https://en.opensuse.org/Code_of_Conduct -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!

------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, May 25th, 2023 at 12:32 PM, tatsu M via openSUSE Factory wrote:

Well, that settles it.

If you would like to celebrate an event, send a request to the mods and "it will be taken into consideration". That vagueness is intentional btw, because they have to first check whether or not you're celebrating something that aligns with their political views. Now that's inclusivity at its finest.

There might be some misunderstanding here or you just simply want to continue down the path of malice. I suspect the latter, but giving you the benefit of the doubt. The statement is not vague at all. If you want to submit a logo - or any artwork really - to your choice of platform you're free to do so, but we will not put up anything that is NSFW, disrespectful or violates the CoC/Guiding Principles in any way. I think that this is fairly reasonable.

You will tolerate us, but we will not tolerate you.

And here's another misunderstanding, we will absolutely __NOT__ tolerate you. Please see the CoC[1], and the Guiding Principals[2] if you require a clarification on my reasoning. [1]: https://en.opensuse.org/Code_of_Conduct [2]: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Guiding_principles -- A.

Did the rainbow color break your Linux setup? Did it cause any package to malfunction? If not, then this thread should be stopped. This thread is already off-topic for several days. No matter whether you like it or not, the CoC and Guiding principles are there. If you strongly disagree with them, you‘re not welcomed, and you should leave. And the subreddit mods (according to Callum Farmer) are already made the judgment:

Your related post on reddit to this was determined on reddit as homophobia from both the openSUSE Reddit Mods Team and the Reddit safety team due to certain comments made which I will not repeat and is a clear violation of the openSUSE Code of Conduct so it was removed from r/opensuse. As such, any comments from you with regards to this will not be adhered to.

Do we still need more arguments? HH -----Original Message----- From: Robert Webb via openSUSE Factory Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 9:32 AM To: factory@lists.opensuse.org Subject: Re: the cover of the r/opensuse subreddit be changed! On Thu, 25 May 2023 01:40:52 -0000, "Maurizio Galli" wrote:

[...] Factory is not the place to have this topic raised, so let it be the end of it.

Not yet. Not when personal attacks have been hurled in this thread, and nobody objects. Patrick Shanahan was insulted, asked to leave, called "a disgrace" (by Attila Pinter), and threatened with being banned. He did not personally attack anyone. I am disappointed that no one else of you who may disagree with Patrick stepped up to call that unacceptable. You should all be ashamed. -- Robert Webb

On 2023-05-26 04:35, Harry Hu via openSUSE Factory wrote:

Did the rainbow color break your Linux setup? Did it cause any package to malfunction? If not, then this thread should be stopped.

This thread is already off-topic for several days. No matter whether you like it or not, the CoC and Guiding principles are there. If you strongly disagree with them, you‘re not welcomed, and you should leave.

The code of conduct also applies to people insulting Patrick, and to you. You should all be ashamed. You can not help one group or idea by insulting others. Shame on you. And shame on the moderators and shame on the board for not acting. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)

This back and forth has been going on for too long. The solution is very simple: As others have said the request to change a graphic on the subreddit has nothing to do with the factory mailing list. This thread is not on topic, and may be up for discussion somewhere, but that place is not here. If anyone has a problem with someone violating the code of conduct, or any other rule, it does not belong here either, and should be taken up with the moderation team. Their contact form is here: https://code.opensuse.org/project/coc/new_issue There shouldn't be need for any other response unless something I've said is somehow incorrect. Please take your complaints where they belong. Arguing and attacking each other in public will just lead to more arguments and attacks, and will get no results. Kris

Hello, On Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 12:42 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:

On 2023/05/26 02:46, Alin Marin Elena wrote:

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Calling out unacceptable opinions shall not be equated with the opinion. The original opinion was homophobic

---- Really? Was it? How would you have written the opinion asking for change, in a way that was not homophobic?

I predict you'll get something like "Asking for removing the rainbow flag is homophobic in itself. You cannot in good conscience be apolitical in this horrible climate of oppression!" back. After all the Just And Righteous like to deal in absolutes.

...

They were rightly called out and we shall continue to do so.

---- Because it is important to label opinions we don't like as "X"-phobic and to belittle people with such opinions so they will be shamed and maybe leave the project. Really?

That's how it works, yes. Anybody you stick that label on will be an instant outcast and valid target. The Just And Righteous People will ban and often also report him (using the generic masculine here, because it is of course going to be a toxic white male in most cases) to his employer's HR department to make sure he gets fired, too. For that will convince him to see the error of his and the righteousness of their ways. Plus put the fear of getting cancelled into any would-be supporters for bigotry, racism and homophobia is transitive, rendering anyone who lends aid and comfort to The Enemy guilty by association. And that last bit is the very reason why hardly anybody rose to Robert Webb's challenge of | I am disappointed that no one else of you who may disagree with Patrick stepped up to call that unacceptable. People have families to feed and jobs to lose. Disagreeing with The Righteous usually leads to HR department inboxes getting flooded with lots of complaints about the villain in question (How DARE he?!). It's called cancel culture and it hit lots of people who engaged in wrongthink (such as holding right wing or libertarian opinions or - gasp - not displaying sufficient levels of homophilia). Happened to people such as Brendan Eich, Eric S. Raymond, or James Damore for instance. More recently Richard Stallman who cannot be called right wing by any stretch of the definition. Plenty of never published instances of nobodies, too. Saw it happen in my company. Which is why I am posting under a pseudonym myself. The ugly sort of discussion we see playing out here also happens in other open source projects: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/26257#issuecomment-1420656553 Nobody is ever asked whether they want "diverse and inclusive" changes in their projects. Or codices of conduct. They are effectively told. For voicing any fundamental criticism (i.e. "No, I do not want that." as opposed to "Absolutely! But could we change this or that implementation detail.") is usually met with a heavy handed threat of a ban, censorship (the comments the guy refers to have been hidden by virtue of being "marked as abuse") or even nastier things such as hitting the "offenders" employer with a threat of bad publicity by an outraged mob of The Just and Righteous.

...

I hope all the ones who exposed biggoted opinions or support for them disguised under some form of free speech are soon banned they do not make our community proud.

--- yes, because moving such people to the shadows improves the safety of rainbow-aligned people everywhere. Hmmm...really?

I'd say it breeds quite a bit of resentment. Resentment that did not exist previously. So quite the opposite of the stated goal of fostering inclusion. For it creates a privileged group that is above all doubt or criticism. Or rather a hierarchy of oppression. After all there's not just rainbow people being put on a pedestal by The Just And Righteous.

...

I see nothing for Attila to be sorry for.

I tend to lean in favor of supporting that statement.

I see quite a bit for him to be sorry for. But since he's (a) got the power to ban people (b) support from people who do not need to worry about their livelihood for publicly supporting the Just And Righteous party line and (c) no opposing voices because these would have to worry about their livelihood for opposing his stance, he needn't worry about that. Just like everyone else on the Right Side of History.

...

...

Did the rainbow color break your Linux setup? Um yeah!. My printer ran out of some of those ink colors because

On Fri, 26 May 2023, 10:34 Carlos E. R.,

Actually I've had my fair share of problems with "inclusive language". master branches getting renamed to 'main' is a real hoot that has caused quite a bit of head scratching with suddenly failing CI, for instance. Switching from a newer version (with "inclusive language") of mbsync back to an older one causes it to fail to parse its configuration file. Recently, a similar issue in Kubernetes brought Reddit down for a couple of hours. This renaming of various things suddenly deemed "non-inclusive" by political breaks code needlessly.

...

Did it cause any package to malfunction? If not, then this thread should be stopped. You should all be ashamed. You can not help one group or idea by insulting others. Shame on you.

Yeah, talk about tempest in a teapot...

No, this is not a tempest in a teapot at all. People have been getting fired over disagreeing with the Just and Righteous. I have witnessed that myself. Livelihoods destroyed over not baying along with the mob. And they are then getting gaslit with "There is no cancel culture", just to add insult to injury. It's an enormous problem plaguing this entire industry (holding Just And Righteous opinions is pretty much an industry standard and don't you ever dare deviate from the orthodoxy) and it causes both technical damage and existential damage to real people. But then, who cares about people who have been dubbed "literal nazis" anyway, right? Just designate somebody as The Other, as Enemy, as Old White Man, and presto, the end of getting rid of them justifies any and all means, no matter how revolting. Regards, An Anonymous Techie

Hello, On Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 10:41 AM, Lars Marowsky-Bree via openSUSE Factory wrote:

On 2023-05-26T11:56:51, Wouter Onebekend via openSUSE Factory factory@lists.opensuse.org wrote:

...

I predict you'll get something like "Asking for removing the rainbow flag is homophobic in itself. You cannot in good conscience be apolitical in this horrible climate of oppression!" back.

Excellent. So you know already.

Of course. Ideologues are quite predictable after all. They run a script which is open source and available for everyone to read. I just happen to disagree with the contents of that script ;-) Not flying that flag is neutral. Flying it is an endorsement. I'd prefer a neutral technical community over one that forces me to endorse things without even bothering to ask me. If a community forces me to endorse things without bothering to ask me, quashing any dissent with threats of exclusion while claiming to be "inclusive", I am going to speak up. Until your kind silences me with force, which it usually does. For the one thing you cannot handle is dissenters. Since your ideology does not hold up to cold, dispassionate arguments dissecting it. Hence your need to silence and nip any disagreement in the bud.

...

Nobody is ever asked whether they want "diverse and inclusive" changes in their projects. Or codices of conduct. They are effectively told.

Start your own projects without them then. Enjoy your community. Have a good life. Somewhere else.

EPERM You are not my commanding officer or anything like that. Hence I do not take orders from you. After all I am having a lot of fun here ;-) This ideology being forced upon me in a community I have had a lot of fun in for years threatens that, though. Hence I am going to fight it. It is a good place to fight this fight, for draconian measures are going to make you look bad to the freedom lovers that founded this community. I am fighting to keep it free. People like you are fighting to introduce a thought police to it. That has very little to do with freedom. Regards, An Anonymous Techie

Hello, On Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 1:49 PM, Robert Webb via openSUSE Factory wrote:

On Sat, 27 May 2023 11:05:24 +0000, Wouter Onebekend via openSUSE Factory factory@lists.opensuse.org wrote:

...

Not flying that flag is neutral.

Demanding no flag is not neutral.

...

Flying it is an endorsement.

Flying it indicates acceptance. Acceptance of a group's right to exist and participate equally with everyone else.

Flying it indicates driving out everyone who does not endorse and enthusiastically embrace the group in question and salute its flag. While not explicitly stated in the code of conduct, that is the case law the board members on this thread are currently busily trying to establish - with an iron fist and threats of banning people no less. I find that quite revolting and not inclusive at all. Somebody on this thread quoted Martin Niemoeller. Nowadays the first group they are coming for are the old white men - filthy conservative hate mongers and colonial oppressors, the whole lot of them! As the purity spiral tightens they will eventually come for you. And by that time there will be nobody like me left to speak up on your behalf. Given some of the statements made on this thread, they are in fact already coming for you. Why do you now defend the people you said should be ashamed for their behavior? Regards, An Anonymous Techie

On Thu 2023-05-25, Maurizio Galli wrote:

Hello everyone, I am admin of the openSUSE subreddit. The rainbow flag was contributed by a community member who wished to celebrate Pride month (June). I also see the rainbow flag as a symbol of tolerance that should not have triggered such an exaggerated response.

Now everyone is entitled to an opinion but I hope to kill this off-topic thread once and for all. The rainbow flag will not be removed as a result of this thread and other messages the subreddit mods have received. However if community members send a modmail to the openSUSE subreddit moderators requesting a celebration they care about and provide some artwork, it will be taken into consideration. FYI International Cat Day is on August 8th, I look forward to your contributions.

Factory is not the place to have this topic raised, so let it be the end of it.

Thank you, Mau, for the background and the offer. And I agree, and reiterate, and ask everyone: This thread is off-topic. Let's end it, please. Also, a number of messages here are in violation of the openSUSE Code of Conduct (cf. https://en.opensuse.org/Code_of_Conduct ). Both moderators and the board are looking into this. Gerald

On 5/26/23 07:24, Wouter Onebekend via openSUSE Factory wrote:

Hello,

On Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 3:28 PM, Gerald Pfeifer via openSUSE Factory wrote:

...

On Thu 2023-05-25, Maurizio Galli wrote: And I agree, and reiterate, and ask everyone: This thread is off-topic. Let's end it, please. Where would it be on topic then?

Might I suggest the openSUSE offtopic email mail list to continue this discussion? The list as been rather quiet as of late and has plenty of bandwidth to handle a discussion such as this.  Pop an email to this address to subscribe: offtopic-join@lists.opensuse.org As an on-topic comment to this off-topic thread I'd like to offer a link to a podcast I heard just last night.  It offers an interesting explanation of how tech companies like Google and Facebook have become a new class of monopoly that are fundamentally unstoppable at this point.  The third and final podcast on this topic is a remarkably accurate description of what we just witnessed on this list.  It's frightening and doesn't bode well for our collective futures. The third podcast can stand alone and be listened to without hearing the first two. https://redpilledamerica.com/episodes/ep-18-the-virtual-organism-part-three-... But here are links to the first two, which are also very interesting.  For example, the real founding story of YouTube is documented. https://redpilledamerica.com/episodes/ep-16-the-virtual-organism-part-one-2/ and https://redpilledamerica.com/episodes/ep-17-the-virtual-organism-part-two-2/ Regards, Lew

Thank you, Mau, for the background and the offer.

And I agree, and reiterate, and ask everyone: This thread is off-topic. Let's end it, please. Gerald, sorry to say it this bluntly: No way this is about the tread being off-topic. This is about denying people

Op vrijdag 26 mei 2023 15:28:32 CEST schreef Gerald Pfeifer via openSUSE Factory: their own choices in life. We are, as a community either inclusive or exclusive. It is not just an opiniated discussion. If we start regarding it as such, we are definitely on the wrong path. We're way past keeping it "zen" or friendly, we're talking about excluding people from the openSUSE community. And I will not accept that. No matter in what way this happens. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board openSUSE Forums Team

Hello, Apologies for responding to your message in this manner - you appear to have an honest intention to end this argument peacefully and that is very much to your credit. Nonetheless, I believe an analogy in similar words to yours may help The Just And Righteous understand what they are currently doing and will no doubt continue doing in words they hopefully understand and take to heart. On Friday, May 26th, 2023 at 3:19 PM, Milachew via openSUSE Factory wrote: [...]

Let me say at once that I was born in a place where homophobia and "traditional values" are currently being promoted at the state and public level.

Moreover... My native language even has a separate swear word for homosexual men, and it is actively used as an insult.

Moreover...My native language even has a separate swear word for conservative men, and it is actively used as an insult.

Despite this, I grew up a person who believes that LGBTQ people are just like everyone else (historically, physically, psychologically). Despite this, I grew up a person who believes that conservative white men are just like everyone else (historically, physically, psychologically).

And I partly understand how hard it is for them. After all, in my circle of friends and acquaintances (when I was at university), it turns out, there were people like that. They kept it a secret from society, from the state, and even from their parents. They were only able to feel free when they left.

And I absolutely - being one myself - understand how hard it is for them. After all, in my circle of friends and acquaintances (when I was at university and later at work), it turns out there were conservative men. They kept it a secret from society, the state and even from their parents. They were not even able to feel free by leaving because most of the world is "progressive" these days. What is the solution to people like me existing? Regards, An Anonymous Techie

Anyone who disagrees with that premise, can not just stop commenting on this thread, but find another Project to bother because you should not be welcome here. As the father of a child that came out to be a part of the LHGTBI community: Wanna be a bigot, a homophobe (fear of homosexuality does not exist, being an asshole does), then this community is not for you. If that means loss of users, so be it. Cutting out the rotten flesh is healthy. And needs to be done rather yesterday than tomorrow. Their membership needs to be revoked, they need to be banned, not moderated. The colors are about including people, with full respect for their being who

Op vrijdag 26 mei 2023 17:05:46 CEST schreef Richard Brown: they are. If you can't bring yourself to that, fuck off, find yourself some excluding "community". Don't refer to me as a Board Member. I am a father with 3 children, and I want neither of them to be bigotted like some of you in this thead want. THEY wear the rainbow colors with pride, thanks to themselves and the people accepting/ likeing them for who they are. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board openSUSE Forums Team

Hello, On Saturday, May 27th, 2023 at 1:30 AM, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

Op vrijdag 26 mei 2023 17:05:46 CEST schreef Richard Brown:

...

Anyone who disagrees with that premise, can not just stop commenting on this thread, but find another Project to bother because you should not be welcome here.

As the father of a child that came out to be a part of the LHGTBI community: Wanna be a bigot, a homophobe (fear of homosexuality does not exist, being an asshole does), then this community is not for you.

Oh, an anecdote! I love anecdotes! They are great for proving anything and nothing! Do I get to tell anecdotes of the numerous times I got unwanted (and quite forward) sexual attention from members of the gay community or would that constitute hate speech? I figured I'd better ask before I commit a faux pas.

If that means loss of users, so be it. Cutting out the rotten flesh is healthy.

Rotten flesh. So I am rotten flesh that needs to be cut out to you. That's quite the insult. Are insults permitted under your precious code of conduct? Or are some insults just more equal than others? Either way, this does not feel very inclusive to me. I figured the mask would eventually slip, but I didn't think you'd blow your top quite like this. So. Fair enough. Let's take JA McInnes up on his suggestion and amend the code of conduct. I propose the following: "Anyone who disagrees with any aspect of LGBT ideology, especially spamming everything with rainbow flags, is rotten flesh who should be cut out. They will be banned, not moderated without warning at the discretion of board members. There is no appeal." Anyone in favor please say "aye".

And needs to be done rather yesterday than tomorrow. Their membership needs to be revoked, they need to be banned, not moderated.

Where do they go when they get banned here (and from their jobs as the dutiful Just and Righteous snitch on them to their equally rainbow colored employer)? And where do they go once they get banned, not moderated from the next place? Where does it end? Please state clearly what you want to happen to these people. They are rotten flesh after all. How do you propose a Good and Just society (after all a Good and Just society cannot suffer exclusionary, conservative communities to exist inside itself, right?) get rid of such filth? Please do go into as much detail as you can. I think I have a fairly good idea of your intentions but I'd like to hear them from yourself. As a Board Member who supports the Code of Conduct and fearless champion of the LGBT community you should be vocal about this. Regards, An Anonymous Techie

On Fri, 26 May 2023 17:05:46 +0200, Richard Brown wrote:

Every day could, and should, be a day of support for openSUSE to welcome everyone regardless of any attribute outside of their control.

Anyone who disagrees with that premise, can not just stop commenting on this thread, but find another Project to bother because you should not be welcome here.

Nicely expressed, Richard. Agreed with both you and Knurpht (I think you're both saying essentially the same thing). -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

Ричард Браун wrote:

26 мая 2023 г., 15:19, Milachew через openSUSE Factory написал:

...

If TL;DR:

I suggest refraining from the symbolism of the LGBTQ movement for

every day in place like reddit

for LGBTQ openSUSE already expresses support by treating them the

same way it treats others (which they lack)

on days of support, change the symbolism into LGBTQ colors (static

Цвета ЛГБТК в Reddit) у меня есть альтернативное предложение Участники openSUSE должны иметь право публично идентифицировать себя и Проект, частью которого они гордятся, любым способом, который им нравится, при условии, что это не нарушает наш Кодекс поведения. Это означает, что каждый должен иметь право создавать любые варианты любых логотипов openSUSE, которые они хотят, поддерживая любую стоящую цель, в любых цветах, которые они хотят, и размещая их, где они хотят, и так долго, как они хотят. Логотипы Rainbow ничем не отличаются от национальных логотипов таких групп, как openSUSE в Италии, Японии и Индонезии, которые использовались в течение _years_ без комментариев. На самом деле, вы могли бы возразить, что использование логотипа Rainbow на Reddit _более_ всеобъемлющее, чем эти долго не упомянутые варианты. Мы все приветствуем логотип Rainbow, но национальные логотипы в первую очередь предназначены для людей этой нации :) Каждый день может и должен быть днем ​​поддержки openSUSE, чтобы приветствовать всех, независимо от каких-либо атрибутов, находящихся вне их контроля. Любой, кто не согласен с этой предпосылкой, может не просто перестать комментировать эту тему, но и найти другой проект, чтобы беспокоить его, потому что вам здесь не рады.

Хотел вам ответить, но сразу не понял, как конкретное сообщение цитировать :)