[opensuse-factory] Remove flash-player from default package install list
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases. Any thoughts? Cheers, David 1. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/12/adobe_flash_zero_day_cve_2015_5122/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 13 July 2015 at 16:51, David Disseldorp
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
Any thoughts?
Cheers, David
I think it's a great idea. We probably want to keep it as an option for those who can't live without, but I think you should opt-in to a package that constantly exploited. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 21:00, Richard Brown wrote:
On 13 July 2015 at 16:51, David Disseldorp wrote:
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
Any thoughts?
Cheers, David
I think it's a great idea. We probably want to keep it as an option for those who can't live without, but I think you should opt-in to a package that constantly exploited.
+1 for removal from pattern-packages and please check the browser packages for stray "Recomments" and or "Suggests", too. This makes the install of the flash-player packages a deliberate, and intentional action by the user. Idea: a "Obsoletes" to the older than actual version of flash-player into the pattern that wants a web browser, lets catch the oldies! - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 13 July 2015 21.08:50 Yamaban wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 21:00, Richard Brown wrote:
On 13 July 2015 at 16:51, David Disseldorp wrote:
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
Any thoughts?
Cheers, David
I think it's a great idea. We probably want to keep it as an option for those who can't live without, but I think you should opt-in to a package that constantly exploited.
+1 for removal from pattern-packages and please check the browser packages for stray "Recomments" and or "Suggests", too.
This makes the install of the flash-player packages a deliberate, and intentional action by the user.
Idea: a "Obsoletes" to the older than actual version of flash-player into the pattern that wants a web browser, lets catch the oldies!
- Yamaban.
+1 there's enough alternatives now outside, and if the flash-player can be installed alone it make perfect sense -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-13 21:18, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Monday 13 July 2015 21.08:50 Yamaban wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 21:00, Richard Brown wrote:
On 13 July 2015 at 16:51, David Disseldorp wrote:
+1 there's enough alternatives now outside, and if the flash-player can be installed alone it make perfect sense
I don't see any practical alternative, when even my bank uses flash. I have to install it, be it default or optional. Otherwise, I'd have to use the proprietary Chrome. Removing it from default pattern is just an inconvenience. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWkH7cACgkQja8UbcUWM1yWZgEAgNYczb5KfFPLuNpPHRs636Zz tZLAHfe2kW8ipGBwcfYA+gIgR2lYLfatpsGVkMVSDgY+X+phb+KDGCkYdNmz31+4 =V3Rz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2015-07-13 at 22:29 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-13 21:18, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Monday 13 July 2015 21.08:50 Yamaban wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 21:00, Richard Brown wrote:
On 13 July 2015 at 16:51, David Disseldorp wrote:+1 there's enough alternatives now outside, and if the flash-player can be installed alone it make perfect sense I don't see any practical alternative, when even my bank uses flash have to install it, be it default or optional. Otherwise, I'd have to use the proprietary Chrome. Removing it from default pattern is just an inconvenience.
+1 Using a wide swath of consumer level sites requires flash. Making this change reduces usability. -- Adam Tauno Williams mailto:awilliam@whitemice.org GPG D95ED383 Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 13 July 2015 22.29:43 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-13 21:18, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Monday 13 July 2015 21.08:50 Yamaban wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 21:00, Richard Brown wrote:
On 13 July 2015 at 16:51, David Disseldorp wrote:
+1 there's enough alternatives now outside, and if the flash-player can be installed alone it make perfect sense
I don't see any practical alternative, when even my bank uses flash. I have to install it, be it default or optional. Otherwise, I'd have to use the proprietary Chrome.
Removing it from default pattern is just an inconvenience.
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
As I've said there's alternative. Use your phone, change bank. create a docker instance with need crap etc ... And to paraphrase yourself getting flash in the default pattern is just an inconvenience. Thread End. -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Monday 13 July 2015 22.29:43 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-13 21:18, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Monday 13 July 2015 21.08:50 Yamaban wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 21:00, Richard Brown wrote:
On 13 July 2015 at 16:51, David Disseldorp wrote:
+1 there's enough alternatives now outside, and if the flash-player can be installed alone it make perfect sense
I don't see any practical alternative, when even my bank uses flash. I have to install it, be it default or optional. Otherwise, I'd have to use the proprietary Chrome.
Removing it from default pattern is just an inconvenience.
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
As I've said there's alternative. Use your phone, change bank. create a docker instance with need crap etc ...
Not very helpful, Bruno. Why should we make life more difficult for our plain non-techie users? None of those are genuine alternatives. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.5°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 11:41, Per Jessen wrote:
Bruno Friedmann wrote:
As I've said there's alternative. Use your phone, change bank. create a docker instance with need crap etc ...
Not very helpful, Bruno. Why should we make life more difficult for our plain non-techie users? None of those are genuine alternatives.
No, they aren't... It doesn't matter to me, I know how to install things. But a newbe doesn't. He just goes to a page, and he gets an error from the web page. Hey, you don't have Flash! Shall we install it for you? Why not, go ahead. Oops, something failed... Linux is not supported. Then Joe User says Linux is crap. Or maybe he comes here and asks, spending time and e-ink. The end result will not be less people using Flash, because there really is no choice. It will be either the same people using it, or not using Linux... On the other hand, maybe Adobe will be convinced that Linux people are not interested in Flash, and remove all support, as they did for acrobat :-/ - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWk5s4ACgkQja8UbcUWM1zzzwEAgqgUPp8hV3TuFCyOFIKCiF/9 l0oZY08j+IloneYb7oEA/jkD+60zyTN+IABm5oRm/5tsiWUT8n5t6jL12/gA9Lec =qI0Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 12:39:10 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-14 11:41, Per Jessen wrote:
Bruno Friedmann wrote:
As I've said there's alternative. Use your phone, change bank. create a docker instance with need crap etc ...
Not very helpful, Bruno. Why should we make life more difficult for our plain non-techie users? None of those are genuine alternatives.
No, they aren't...
It doesn't matter to me, I know how to install things. But a newbe doesn't. He just goes to a page, and he gets an error from the web page. Hey, you don't have Flash! Shall we install it for you? Why not, go ahead. Really? Is openSUSE targeting people who can't install software? Also, should not we install everything by default just in case that something might go wrong during installation then?
Martin Pluskal
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 13:16, Martin Pluskal wrote:
Really? Is openSUSE targeting people who can't install software?
Yep. See the guiding principles ;-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWk8wQACgkQja8UbcUWM1xFtQEAnTDa/6aa9NDZdvoAUJMZZsoo csTZbxdHv7V2VCDJwIkA/RUmfon299lc+aI+LjW6rk2bzrebiz9NfDG1OuY+guGX =7V1C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 13:31:16 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-14 13:16, Martin Pluskal wrote:
Really? Is openSUSE targeting people who can't install software?
Yep. See the guiding principles ;-) Please point me to part of guiding principles which you are referring to. I fail to see anything mentioning users not needing to install software/packages.
There is mentioned "easy access to Free and Open Source Software." which adobe flash player is definitely not. Martin
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 15:10, Martin Pluskal wrote:
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 13:31:16 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-14 13:16, Martin Pluskal wrote:
Really? Is openSUSE targeting people who can't install software?
Yep. See the guiding principles ;-) Please point me to part of guiding principles which you are referring to. I fail to see anything mentioning users not needing to install software/packages.
«... create a distribution which is stable, easy to use and a complete multi-purpose distribution for users and developers, for desktop and server use, for beginners and experienced users, for everybody. » Notice the "beginners" in there. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWlEvwACgkQja8UbcUWM1z7lwD/Tqn+N0txVUn4oTG5Rp/M9Odc yrMk5mFMClBAMOuxvuAA+gKW1hKfljX9ZXpKsEQW9PrYg75tqMPW4iBx5mfgykvL =ozoS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 14.07.2015 um 15:47 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2015-07-14 15:10, Martin Pluskal wrote:
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 13:31:16 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-14 13:16, Martin Pluskal wrote:
Really? Is openSUSE targeting people who can't install software?
Yep. See the guiding principles ;-) Please point me to part of guiding principles which you are referring to. I fail to see anything mentioning users not needing to install software/packages.
«... create a distribution which is stable, easy to use and a complete multi-purpose distribution for users and developers, for desktop and server use, for beginners and experienced users, for everybody. »
Notice the "beginners" in there.
One could argue that that means "no flash player" even more strongly, seeing that beginners wouldn't necessarily be aware of the risks of flash. cheers MH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 15:55, Mathias Homann wrote:
Notice the "beginners" in there.
One could argue that that means "no flash player" even more strongly, seeing that beginners wouldn't necessarily be aware of the risks of flash.
They will follow advice on the first page or forum they hit in google on how to solve the problem, be it wise or not. I've seen quite a few try to install packages from ubuntu or wherever, or try to build them without the least knowledge of building (because that's what the howto they have says), without even noticing that the package they want is available in OBS. Just an example. Beginners will not be aware of the risk of flash, that's true. They'll get to a page that wants flash, and will offer a click to install it, which will fail because it is designed for Windows, and will say: "Linux is crap". I have seen this... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF0EAREIAAYFAlWlF4wACgkQja8UbcUWM1xUpQEAnGcGyNJXs3rNK9q9IiX4dReZ nq58Z97p+oyQaZIll+QA+N27xRG+yfeV7T+kTENILoSyboA1S6I+VfDMRkfccx0= =aXb7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Beginners will not be aware of the risk of flash, that's true. They'll get to a page that wants flash, and will offer a click to install it, which will fail because it is designed for Windows, and will say: "Linux is crap". I have seen this...
windows hasn't flash installed by default
2015-07-14 16:07 GMT+02:00 Carlos E. R.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2015-07-14 15:55, Mathias Homann wrote:
Notice the "beginners" in there.
One could argue that that means "no flash player" even more strongly, seeing that beginners wouldn't necessarily be aware of the risks of flash.
They will follow advice on the first page or forum they hit in google on how to solve the problem, be it wise or not.
I've seen quite a few try to install packages from ubuntu or wherever, or try to build them without the least knowledge of building (because that's what the howto they have says), without even noticing that the package they want is available in OBS.
Just an example.
Beginners will not be aware of the risk of flash, that's true. They'll get to a page that wants flash, and will offer a click to install it, which will fail because it is designed for Windows, and will say: "Linux is crap". I have seen this...
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
iF0EAREIAAYFAlWlF4wACgkQja8UbcUWM1xUpQEAnGcGyNJXs3rNK9q9IiX4dReZ nq58Z97p+oyQaZIll+QA+N27xRG+yfeV7T+kTENILoSyboA1S6I+VfDMRkfccx0= =aXb7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Jul 14 16:48 Ond?ej Súkup wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote
Beginners will not be aware of the risk of flash, that's true. They'll get to a page that wants flash, and will offer a click to install it, which will fail because it is designed for Windows, and will say: "Linux is crap". I have seen this...
windows hasn't flash installed by default
I do not understand how your response matches what Carlos E. R. wrote. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg)
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 16:48:32 Ondřej Súkup wrote:
Beginners will not be aware of the risk of flash, that's true. They'll get to a page that wants flash, and will offer a click to install it, which will fail because it is designed for Windows, and will say: "Linux is crap". I have seen this...
windows hasn't flash installed by default
On both windows and apple, users (including those elusive beginners which Carlos likes to use as argument) have to actually install adobe flash. Martin
Hello, On Jul 14 16:57 Martin Pluskal wrote:
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 16:48:32 Ond?ej Súkup wrote:
Beginners will not be aware of the risk of flash, that's true. They'll get to a page that wants flash, and will offer a click to install it, which will fail because it is designed for Windows, and will say: "Linux is crap". I have seen this...
windows hasn't flash installed by default
On both windows and apple, users (including those elusive beginners which Carlos likes to use as argument) have to actually install adobe flash.
I think basically everybody knows that in particular on Windows users have to install a lot of additional software. But I fail to understand how this matches what Carlos wrote. As far as I understand Carlos wrote that on Windows it "just works" to install Adobe Flash when needed because on web pages a click to install link "just works". In contrast this does not "just work" on openSUSE (as far as I understand what Carlos wrote). As far as I understand what Carlos wrote the question is how to make installing Adobe Flash also "just work" for openSUSE on web pages with a "click to install link". Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 17:11, Johannes Meixner wrote:
But I fail to understand how this matches what Carlos wrote.
As far as I understand Carlos wrote that on Windows it "just works" to install Adobe Flash when needed because on web pages a click to install link "just works".
In contrast this does not "just work" on openSUSE (as far as I understand what Carlos wrote).
Yes, that is correct.
As far as I understand what Carlos wrote the question is how to make installing Adobe Flash also "just work" for openSUSE on web pages with a "click to install link".
Yes. Mind, I personally prefer just to be told "you have to install this or that, look at your software manuals, ask the admin, or click here for more info". Then be pointed to YaST with instructions. The Windows way, where users are happy to click anywhere and install anything, because they are running as administrators all the time, is very wrong, IMO. A nightmare. What SuSE and openSUSE have been doing for a long time is having Flash installed by default, and thus avoiding the questions (how do I install Flash) in help mail and forums. Makes things easier. But perhaps you are right that it is dangerous to install it by default... :-? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWlQhEACgkQja8UbcUWM1ysKgD9Hc+1ErMsWtMBMzJcUL7NKJ4v milO3TbGmnavydVSbgoA/02BXlTizEP/zQ1kPi+mPlUvshaWJ2rc4kYnw+bNhMJE =n36+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 16:48, Ondřej Súkup wrote:
Beginners will not be aware of the risk of flash, that's true. They'll get to a page that wants flash, and will offer a click to install it, which will fail because it is designed for Windows, and will say: "Linux is crap". I have seen this...
windows hasn't flash installed by default
I never said it did. What I said is that when users get to a page that works with flash, they typically get a prompt, from the page, to install the plugin for them. But that link will only works for Windows users, not for Linux users. What I say is that Windows users get help and a one click on those pages, to install flash. Which can also be a bad thing, but that's another matter. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWlNnwACgkQja8UbcUWM1yZjQEAixkkfCeHbkpovmV3uDx6cJZJ C7JTe4Ikj2UPmucfxw4A/25+yPP6MJ2QAXs5UyldQ1Dqj0+OsHPuJvOZsC1Ar6x3 =f+Zj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 15:47:40 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-14 15:10, Martin Pluskal wrote:
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 13:31:16 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-14 13:16, Martin Pluskal wrote:
Really? Is openSUSE targeting people who can't install software?
Yep. See the guiding principles ;-)
Please point me to part of guiding principles which you are referring to. I fail to see anything mentioning users not needing to install software/packages.
«... create a distribution which is stable, easy to use and a complete multi-purpose distribution for users and developers, for desktop and server use, for beginners and experienced users, for everybody. »
Notice the "beginners" in there. Why do you assume that beginners can not install package? Could you elaborate more on your definition of beginner?
Honestly when I started to use linux, and definitely was beginner I knew how to install packages within days (even through some graphical tools). I believe that there is difference between "make distribution which is friendly to beginners" and "make distribution that is suitable for users with zero knowledge of anything related to computers" I have also noticed that it is not first time that you "fight for rights of beginners" - I am actually kind of curious - why? Martin
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 16:02, Martin Pluskal wrote:
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 15:47:40 Carlos E. R. wrote:
I have also noticed that it is not first time that you "fight for rights of beginners" - I am actually kind of curious - why?
Why not? It is my main contribution, helping beginners (or any one). There are a lot in the forums, more than in the mail lists. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWlGB8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xcfgD7BO5n4Q1zQk22UG9t/pdvKXLk /G8QNQmL4Lrlo4LimMYA/2TbMXsd/WwxHV/6wKFZNKKaDBeXPML4YprdN9HqeA6V =f+Sz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 16:09:35 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-14 16:02, Martin Pluskal wrote:
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 15:47:40 Carlos E. R. wrote:
I have also noticed that it is not first time that you "fight for rights of beginners" - I am actually kind of curious - why?
Why not? It is my main contribution, helping beginners (or any one). There are a lot in the forums, more than in the mail lists.
I see that you have avoided answering most of my questions, and even now you are not answering what I asked; I was not talking about helping users (which is undoubtedly praiseworthy) but more of using those beginners in some kind of "argumentation ad beginners", which you seem to use so often. Martin
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 17:05, Martin Pluskal wrote:
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 16:09:35 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-14 16:02, Martin Pluskal wrote:
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 15:47:40 Carlos E. R. wrote:
I have also noticed that it is not first time that you "fight for rights of beginners" - I am actually kind of curious - why?
Why not? It is my main contribution, helping beginners (or any one). There are a lot in the forums, more than in the mail lists.
I see that you have avoided answering most of my questions, and even now you are not answering what I asked; I was not talking about helping users (which is undoubtedly praiseworthy) but more of using those beginners in some kind of "argumentation ad beginners", which you seem to use so often.
Well, I don't know if I understand you, but I try place myself into their place to see at things. On your other questions, I think I have some understanding of how many beginners think, because I see "hundreds" of them. :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWlQxUACgkQja8UbcUWM1zr1gEAg5ufkc/2MAhA4tZ7AswtbG0l zaonZ9nxTxgWspElquIA/j0ANgC+zDfIR53pbbAoW5bDtZNpfiIaHW2leE8ib6uZ =fK0m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Tirsdag den 14. juli 2015 16:02:13 skrev Martin Pluskal:
Why do you assume that beginners can not install package? Could you elaborate more on your definition of beginner?
They'll fail way before they even think "Oh, I need to install an additional package". They'll fire up their browser, go to play some exciting game about cats or farming on Facebook.com, or they'll find one of the millions of Youtube videos only available in Flash and they'll come to the conclusion that "openSUSE doesn't work". They might click on the "Install Adobe Flash" thing that is shown and get even more frustrated. They won't think that they can install the needed plugin with the package manager. They'll think they already have a browser installed, and the browser isn't working. Just like they think the media player is broken, when it doesn't have support for certain media formats out of the box. There are tons of users - even among distro hoppers and others who go and install Linux by themselves, and who might have used Linux for quite a long time, who'll stumble over obstables as small as these. You even see professional developers and sysadmins who struggle with the simplest desktop related issues sometimes. Mostly because those sorts of things don't interest them one bit "the desktop just needs to work!". And even users with basic knowledge about codecs and plugins and package managers, who actually have the potential to go and do a webssearch and install stuff with 5 minutes of work, will often say "screw it, on Linux Mint it all works out of the box, so that's what I'll go use."
I have also noticed that it is not first time that you "fight for rights of beginners" - I am actually kind of curious - why?
Because we care about the openSUSE project and growing FOSS and having diversity instead of monopolies in technology and those sorts of things. A lot of the ideas being thrown around here as of late, are pure kamikaze for the project. If you target only people who are informed and motivated and know what they're doing, it gets really lonely very fast. There aren't as many of such people as you guys seem to think. You might think it'd be good to have a nice little closed elitist club, but in the long run the project needs a full food chain in order not to dry up. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:53:31AM +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Tirsdag den 14. juli 2015 16:02:13 skrev Martin Pluskal:
Why do you assume that beginners can not install package? Could you elaborate more on your definition of beginner?
They'll fail way before they even think "Oh, I need to install an additional package". They'll fire up their browser, go to play some exciting game about cats or farming on Facebook.com, or they'll find one of the millions of Youtube videos only available in Flash and they'll come to the conclusion that "openSUSE doesn't work". They might click on the "Install Adobe Flash" thing that is shown and get even more frustrated.
So what's the difference if we would keep flash-player in the default installation and the browser in use again decides by good reason to disable it due to yet another security issue? Nothing would be won even if it is installed. Since I removed flash-player on my systems I have less trouble with the news pages I use. And arguing with Facebook is good. Cause their security officer claimed "It is time for Adobe to announce the end-of-life date for Flash ..." https://twitter.com/alexstamos/status/620306643360706561
They won't think that they can install the needed plugin with the package manager. They'll think they already have a browser installed, and the browser isn't working.
Then we might have to find a way to let the browsers display a warning which includes a link to an article in the wiki.
Just like they think the media player is broken, when it doesn't have support for certain media formats out of the box.
There are tons of users - even among distro hoppers and others who go and install Linux by themselves, and who might have used Linux for quite a long time, who'll stumble over obstables as small as these. You even see professional developers and sysadmins who struggle with the simplest desktop related issues sometimes. Mostly because those sorts of things don't interest them one bit "the desktop just needs to work!".
And even users with basic knowledge about codecs and plugins and package managers, who actually have the potential to go and do a webssearch and install stuff with 5 minutes of work, will often say "screw it, on Linux Mint it all works out of the box, so that's what I'll go use."
I have also noticed that it is not first time that you "fight for rights of beginners" - I am actually kind of curious - why?
Because we care about the openSUSE project and growing FOSS and having diversity instead of monopolies in technology and those sorts of things.
A lot of the ideas being thrown around here as of late, are pure kamikaze for the project.
If you target only people who are informed and motivated and know what they're doing, it gets really lonely very fast. There aren't as many of such people as you guys seem to think.
You might think it'd be good to have a nice little closed elitist club, but in the long run the project needs a full food chain in order not to dry up.
Right. With the same argumentation it's possible to stress how important it is to kick flash-player out. We're not arguing with the goal to scare beginners away Cheers, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team + SUSE Labs SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-15 13:57, Lars Müller wrote:
So what's the difference if we would keep flash-player in the default installation and the browser in use again decides by good reason to disable it due to yet another security issue?
But it is not disabled. You just get a very prominent button on the top to enable it, with a warning.
Right. With the same argumentation it's possible to stress how important it is to kick flash-player out.
You have to convince the content providers, not users. As I said elsewhere, all major tv providers in my country use flash with no alternative. Well, yes, an applet in a tablet. One at least uses silverlight instead. Even google uses flash on some commercials. As long as these people use flash, not providing flash will push users to Windows, and IE if need be. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWmThUACgkQja8UbcUWM1x/6AD/U2AjS1CQQbu2JdufM3OLQjjk vAXecUQ4YUh+R7zArN4A/0maG7/4m38vlgna0wuXDV1fQ2wo1MLGcVR+R2EcwL6r =KXwB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. [15.07.2015 14:12]:
On 2015-07-15 13:57, Lars Müller wrote:
So what's the difference if we would keep flash-player in the default installation and the browser in use again decides by good reason to disable it due to yet another security issue?
But it is not disabled. You just get a very prominent button on the top to enable it, with a warning.
When I get a button that allows me to enable some piece of software, in which state ist this software? Is it not disabled?
Right. With the same argumentation it's possible to stress how important it is to kick flash-player out.
You have to convince the content providers, not users.
As I said elsewhere, all major tv providers in my country use flash with no alternative. Well, yes, an applet in a tablet. One at least uses silverlight instead. Even google uses flash on some commercials.
OK, so for spanish customers, flash has to be enabled.
As long as these people use flash, not providing flash will push users to Windows, and IE if need be.
Cool. Did you ever consider to earn money for your prophecies? --
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 14:18:58 +0200
Werner Flamme
As I said elsewhere, all major tv providers in my country use flash with no alternative. Well, yes, an applet in a tablet. One at least uses silverlight instead. Even google uses flash on some commercials.
OK, so for spanish customers, flash has to be enabled.
Also, most UK providers use Flash. So, not just for Spanish customers. -- Graham Davis, Bracknell, Berks. openSUSE 13.2 (64-bit); KDE 4.14.2; AMD Phenom II X2 550 Processor; Kernel: 3.16.6; Video: nVidia GeForce 210 (using nouveau driver); Sound: ATI SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/15/2015 09:43 AM, Graham P Davis wrote:
Also, most UK providers use Flash. So, not just for Spanish customers. So, what are they going to do, when browsers stop supporting it? If Chrome and Firefox drop support, along with iPhone, iPad etc., they've got a dwindling market. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:36:55 -0400
James Knott
On 07/15/2015 09:43 AM, Graham P Davis wrote:
Also, most UK providers use Flash. So, not just for Spanish customers. So, what are they going to do, when browsers stop supporting it? If Chrome and Firefox drop support, along with iPhone, iPad etc., they've got a dwindling market.
My guess is, given past performance, that that haven't even thought about it or are unaware that there could be a problem. I could try asking them about it but experience tells me that I shouldn't expect much joy from that. Might be interesting to try, though. Cheers, Graham -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-15 16:36, James Knott wrote:
Also, most UK providers use Flash. So, not just for Spanish customers. So, what are they going to do, when browsers stop supporting it? If Chrome and Firefox drop support, along with iPhone, iPad etc.,
On 07/15/2015 09:43 AM, Graham P Davis wrote: they've got a dwindling market.
Create a Windows application or plugin to use. Forget Linux. Who cares about Linux? Nobody uses it, anyway, just stupid geeks... We don't make money from them. Adobe dropped Linux support for PDFs, anyway... (acroread). As I mentioned, my ISP uses Silverlight instead of Flash. Are there security issues with it, besides being Windows only? Anyway, I don't see browsers really stopping supporting Flash soon. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWnBfIACgkQja8UbcUWM1yMhQEAiJ/9Brg4HR7Zjot4gCP2vZ7i 8uOJq98Me+Ft/BqEhYMA/0XEl82wgQpc2ALQ+dUZKQ/QAC6myoD0rKCz6weN282d =NXRi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 16. Juli 2015, 03:16:34 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
As I mentioned, my ISP uses Silverlight instead of Flash. Are there security issues with it, besides being Windows only?
Anyway, I don't see browsers really stopping supporting Flash soon.
Silverlight is also practically dead. Microsoft supports it in existing Browsers until 2021 or the end of Lifetime on the Browser whicever comes earlier. Chrome dropped support for Silverlight in 42. Internet Explorer supports it, the new Microsoftbrowser (Edge?) does not. Situation in Linux I'm not sure . It was done via Moonlight earlier but this is dead since a while to my knowledge -- Stefan Kunze SUSE Dispatch Engineer ________________________________________________________________ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nürnberg
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-16 09:02, Stefan Kunze wrote:
Silverlight is also practically dead. Microsoft supports it in existing Browsers until 2021 or the end of Lifetime on the Browser whicever comes earlier.
Yes, I know. Still, it is what my ISP uses... :-/
Chrome dropped support for Silverlight in 42.
Internet Explorer supports it, the new Microsoftbrowser (Edge?) does not.
Well, that's good (for me). When W10 is released and mainstream, clients will complain to my ISP that they can't play the content they paid for. Maybe then they will use something else instead.
Situation in Linux I'm not sure . It was done via Moonlight earlier but this is dead since a while to my knowledge
I don't know. I still have got to read those links and try. I don't know if I'll be able this week. Thanks for the summary :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWndvsACgkQja8UbcUWM1wARgD/ROxoNXeyZmbcm0BSoNcSXiu3 CIKS6AoOH/qRg1F7f24A/0g8a0pIUFZKJsXyxeLfUufn8Aqsd2cs/SjC/krGlyXv =njO5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 11:18:51 +0200
"Carlos E. R."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2015-07-16 09:02, Stefan Kunze wrote:
Silverlight is also practically dead. Microsoft supports it in existing Browsers until 2021 or the end of Lifetime on the Browser whicever comes earlier.
Yes, I know.
Still, it is what my ISP uses... :-/
Chrome dropped support for Silverlight in 42.
Internet Explorer supports it, the new Microsoftbrowser (Edge?) does not.
Well, that's good (for me). When W10 is released and mainstream, clients will complain to my ISP that they can't play the content they paid for. Maybe then they will use something else instead.
Situation in Linux I'm not sure . It was done via Moonlight earlier but this is dead since a while to my knowledge
I don't know. I still have got to read those links and try. I don't know if I'll be able this week.
Thanks for the summary :-)
Silverlight is available in Linux via Pipelight: http://pipelight.net/cms/installation.html - -- Graham Davis, Bracknell, Berks. openSUSE 13.2 (64-bit); KDE 4.14.2; AMD Phenom II X2 550 Processor; Kernel: 3.16.6; Video: nVidia GeForce 210 (using nouveau driver); Sound: ATI SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlWngksACgkQDFqZ4PV8pUh2IgCfURNMnqyI8pxTk313hDOuABtC I9IAn2nVG3xVeQSR3HUhG7fJ1Xxmv7JO =GmqI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Torsdag den 16. juli 2015 11:18:51 skrev Carlos E. R.:
On 2015-07-16 09:02, Stefan Kunze wrote:
Silverlight is also practically dead. Microsoft supports it in existing Browsers until 2021 or the end of Lifetime on the Browser whicever comes earlier.
Yes, I know.
Still, it is what my ISP uses... :-/
Danish government recently released an invoicing system to be used by most major state institutions in DK, which requires Silverlight to work at all. They have an 8 year contract with the provider. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/15/2015 07:57 AM, Lars Müller wrote:
And arguing with Facebook is good. Cause their security officer claimed "It is time for Adobe to announce the end-of-life date for Flash ..." https://twitter.com/alexstamos/status/620306643360706561
Youtube is also moving to HTML5. They even have a link to set the browser default to HTML5 on Youtube. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
James Knott composed on 2015-07-15 10:28 (UTC-0400):
Youtube is also moving to HTML5. They even have a link to set the browser default to HTML5 on Youtube.
Without Flash installed, Youtube videos automatically play in HTML5, as well as show a missing plugin message ;-). -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/15/2015 10:54 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
Without Flash installed, Youtube videos automatically play in HTML5, as well as show a missing plugin message ;-).
Does it show the error, when HTML5 is set as default in the browser? BTW, you can make HTML default by going to youtube.com/html5. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
James Knott composed on 2015-07-15 11:02 (UTC-0400):
Felix Miata wrote:
Without Flash installed, Youtube videos automatically play in HTML5, as well as show a missing plugin message ;-).
Does it show the error, when HTML5 is set as default in the browser?
BTW, you can make HTML default by going to youtube.com/html5.
I have too many browsers and profiles and use Youtube too little to be concerned with such minutia. I don't use puters as TV substitutes. I get most TV the same way most US TV stations have traditionally gotten most of their programs, directly off FSS satellites. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/15/2015 11:26 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
BTW, you can make HTML default by going to youtube.com/html5. I have too many browsers and profiles and use Youtube too little to be concerned with such minutia. I don't use puters as TV substitutes. I get most TV the same way most US TV stations have traditionally gotten most of their programs, directly off FSS satellites.
I don't know if that applies to Youtube only or also to other sites. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-15 17:26, Felix Miata wrote:
James Knott composed on 2015-07-15 11:02 (UTC-0400):
I have too many browsers and profiles and use Youtube too little to be concerned with such minutia. I don't use puters as TV substitutes. I get most TV the same way most US TV stations have traditionally gotten most of their programs, directly off FSS satellites.
That's changed here. With our type of cable providers (fibre, really), only one TV is able to work with the cable, the pay services. The TV set on the sitting room. My ISP says now that you can use any computer or tablet in the house. As a matter of fact, even if you are not in your house it works (login/pass). So if I want that content on another room (and I do), I have to use computers (with Windows, apparently) or tablets. They might sell as extra that small box that connects to the router and the TV, that they give only one for the main room. But I haven't seen it. Perhaps is what they now call "smart tv". - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWnB2oACgkQja8UbcUWM1zTGwD8Co4hVUV2MRKcq/WNfnnEedKv 1LwKQEelux2VY1czISUA/jjdfFPxizmZuAyZT6CwNI9LdXJ3cTb5wYkSlShpuq+R =omwz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Jul 15 11:53 Martin Schlander wrote (excerpt):
Tirsdag den 14. juli 2015 16:02:13 skrev Martin Pluskal:
Why do you assume that beginners can not install package? Could you elaborate more on your definition of beginner?
They'll fail way before they even think "Oh, I need to install an additional package". They'll fire up their browser ... ... find one ... only available in Flash and they'll come to the conclusion that "openSUSE doesn't work". They might click on the "Install Adobe Flash" thing that is shown and get even more frustrated.
They won't think that they can install the needed plugin ... They'll think ... the browser isn't working.
Just like they think the media player is broken, when it doesn't have support for certain media formats out of the box.
You even see professional developers and sysadmins who struggle
Guess what I did right now... I booted my Tumbleweed system (virtual KVM machine) that has no Adobe Flash Player installed and launched Mozilla Firefox. I tried a video on the YouTube home page that just worked. Then I went to http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/ and tried a video there but that does not "just work". The browser shows a popup because it doesn't know what it should do with an *.mp4 file. At this point it basically ends. One cannot install a "mp4" package. Of course we know that there is no such package ------------------------------------------------------- $ osc search mp4 No matches found for 'mp4' in projects No matches found for 'mp4' in packages ------------------------------------------------------- but how are unexperienced end-users informed? There is neither any hint that a piece of software is missing here nor what software package is needed so that the browser could deal with *.mp4 files. Even if one knows what is needed, one cannot install it because that kind of software is not available in the default repositories. I think this is the main point that needs to be improved: Directly "inside" the browser sufficient information so that even unexperienced end-users could succeed. Also directly "inside" the media player sufficient information so that even unexperienced end-users could succeed in such cases (i.e. when a piece of software is missing what package is needed). Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 04:45:01PM +0200, Johannes Meixner wrote:
On Jul 15 11:53 Martin Schlander wrote (excerpt):
Tirsdag den 14. juli 2015 16:02:13 skrev Martin Pluskal:
Why do you assume that beginners can not install package? Could you elaborate more on your definition of beginner?
They'll fail way before they even think "Oh, I need to install an additional package". They'll fire up their browser ... ... find one ... only available in Flash and they'll come to the conclusion that "openSUSE doesn't work". They might click on the "Install Adobe Flash" thing that is shown and get even more frustrated.
They won't think that they can install the needed plugin ... They'll think ... the browser isn't working.
Just like they think the media player is broken, when it doesn't have support for certain media formats out of the box.
You even see professional developers and sysadmins who struggle
Guess what I did right now...
I booted my Tumbleweed system (virtual KVM machine) that has no Adobe Flash Player installed and launched Mozilla Firefox.
I tried a video on the YouTube home page that just worked.
Then I went to http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/ and tried a video there but that does not "just work".
The browser shows a popup because it doesn't know what it should do with an *.mp4 file.
At this point it basically ends.
One cannot install a "mp4" package.
Of course we know that there is no such package ------------------------------------------------------- $ osc search mp4 No matches found for 'mp4' in projects No matches found for 'mp4' in packages ------------------------------------------------------- but how are unexperienced end-users informed?
There is neither any hint that a piece of software is missing here nor what software package is needed so that the browser could deal with *.mp4 files.
Even if one knows what is needed, one cannot install it because that kind of software is not available in the default repositories.
I think this is the main point that needs to be improved:
Directly "inside" the browser sufficient information so that even unexperienced end-users could succeed.
Also directly "inside" the media player sufficient information so that even unexperienced end-users could succeed in such cases (i.e. when a piece of software is missing what package is needed).
I did the same steps with the same result on Tumbleweed. The strange
thing is that H.264 is listed as not supported at the moment.
https://www.youtube.com/html5
That's strange, because we have the OpenH264 Cisco stuff in the Plugin
Browser list.
I've tested the same steps with openSUSE 13.2 and it worked like a
charm.
Ciao,
Alex~
--
Alexander Bergmann
Am 15.07.2015 um 17:33 schrieb Alexander Bergmann:
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 04:45:01PM +0200, Johannes Meixner wrote:
There is neither any hint that a piece of software is missing here nor what software package is needed so that the browser could deal with *.mp4 files.
The Firefox package contains actually hints (Recommends) how to get it work but it only works when the package manager can find the required packages and as they are *uhm* not shippable easily to everywhere in the world they are in general not in the default openSUSE repos. (I know this is not enough to make it work for the real enduser.)
Directly "inside" the browser sufficient information so that even unexperienced end-users could succeed.
Not easy and I would rather vote for package manager interaction instead. I recently tried to get VLC to play some files and was struggling.
I did the same steps with the same result on Tumbleweed. The strange thing is that H.264 is listed as not supported at the moment.
That's strange, because we have the OpenH264 Cisco stuff in the Plugin Browser list.
The Cisco OpenH264 is currently only enabled for WebRTC usage. I think it is required in from the WebRTC specification to support it but it's not mandatory for HTML5 video support. I don't know the arguments why it's done that way from Mozilla upstream.
I've tested the same steps with openSUSE 13.2 and it worked like a charm.
Packman? Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/15/2015 01:52 PM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 15.07.2015 um 17:33 schrieb Alexander Bergmann:
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 04:45:01PM +0200, Johannes Meixner wrote:
There is neither any hint that a piece of software is missing here nor what software package is needed so that the browser could deal with *.mp4 files.
The Firefox package contains actually hints (Recommends) how to get it work but it only works when the package manager can find the required packages and as they are *uhm* not shippable easily to everywhere in the world they are in general not in the default openSUSE repos. (I know this is not enough to make it work for the real enduser.)
Directly "inside" the browser sufficient information so that even unexperienced end-users could succeed.
Not easy and I would rather vote for package manager interaction instead. I recently tried to get VLC to play some files and was struggling.
I did the same steps with the same result on Tumbleweed. The strange thing is that H.264 is listed as not supported at the moment.
That's strange, because we have the OpenH264 Cisco stuff in the Plugin Browser list.
The Cisco OpenH264 is currently only enabled for WebRTC usage. I think it is required in from the WebRTC specification to support it but it's not mandatory for HTML5 video support. I don't know the arguments why it's done that way from Mozilla upstream.
I've tested the same steps with openSUSE 13.2 and it worked like a charm.
Packman?
Wolfgang
Flash! Pardon the pun ;-) System76 is removing Flash from their computers. See: http://bit.ly/1Lalq74 ICQ: 551368250 Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Rosenauer schrieb:
Am 15.07.2015 um 17:33 schrieb Alexander Bergmann:
I did the same steps with the same result on Tumbleweed. The strange thing is that H.264 is listed as not supported at the moment.
That's strange, because we have the OpenH264 Cisco stuff in the Plugin Browser list.
The Cisco OpenH264 is currently only enabled for WebRTC usage. I think it is required in from the WebRTC specification to support it but it's not mandatory for HTML5 video support. I don't know the arguments why it's done that way from Mozilla upstream.
OpenH264 did not support the high profile that is needed for most of those videos. That has been implemented in current version but the problem is still that it does not contain an AAC audio decoder, which also would be needed for those videos. KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello Wolfgang! On Jul 15 19:52 Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote (excerpt):
Am 15.07.2015 um 17:33 schrieb Alexander Bergmann:
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 04:45:01PM +0200, Johannes Meixner wrote:
There is neither any hint that a piece of software is missing here nor what software package is needed so that the browser could deal with *.mp4 files.
The Firefox package contains actually hints (Recommends) how to get it work but it only works when the package manager can find the required packages and as they are *uhm* not shippable easily to everywhere in the world they are in general not in the default openSUSE repos. (I know this is not enough to make it work for the real enduser.)
Directly "inside" the browser sufficient information so that even unexperienced end-users could succeed.
Not easy and I would rather vote for package manager interaction instead. I recently tried to get VLC to play some files and was struggling.
First and foremost: I am a total newbie in this area. Up to now I "just stupidly" used Adobe Flash Player because this is what one gets from openSUSE out of the box (the openSUSE-Tumbleweed-Non-Oss repository is enabled by default). Yesterday I did some Googling for "mp4 opensuse". I did read this and that and something else... My main interest was not to "just enable whatever repository and just install whatever packages via just one-click install". Instead I liked to learn what might be sufficiently usable nowadays without too bad possible legal issues. More by gut-feeling than by real knowledge I decided that I should try VLC and after a bit more Googling for "vlc opensuse" (I used Google's topmost hit ;-) and several rounds of packages installations (one does not get by default what one really needs ;-) I was finally successful so that I can now view *.mp4 files.
From my personal specific experience I assume that this is not a practicable way for unexperienced end-users.
Pesonally I am against any package manager interaction when it is about installing packages where the legal state is not 100% clean for openSUSE. I think openSUSE must not provide any kind of semi-automated installation of legally problematic software. In contrast I think openSUSE should provide only information (but then really explanatory and comprehensive information) when legally problematic software is missing but needed. Only a blind idea (I am a total newbie in this area): Assume the issue is about what to do with *.mp4 files. Is it perhaps possible to have by default a dummy installed instead of the actual piece of software that is needed to actually work with *.mp4 files? That dummy would only show information about the issue and what the user could do. Just as an example assume in Firefox /usr/bin/vlc is set by default to be used for *.mp4 files. If by default a /usr/bin/vlc dummy (same file name) is installed, then Firefox would call it for *.mp4 files so that the /usr/bin/vlc dummy could show information about the issue and what the user could do. If this works even unexperienced end-users could get directly "inside" the browser sufficient information. With "directly inside the browser" I do not mean the browser's binaries - I mean how it is perceived by the user - i.e. how it looks. For the user it does not matter what exact program shows him the needed information. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 16.07.2015 um 14:12 schrieb Johannes Meixner:
Pesonally I am against any package manager interaction when it is about installing packages where the legal state is not 100% clean for openSUSE.
I think openSUSE must not provide any kind of semi-automated installation of legally problematic software.
So how do you determine which software is "legally problematic"? For example... in the USA there are several patents that prevent certain things to be included in linux distributions, but in germany software patents do not exist. So the only way to technically do what you suggest would be to completely prevent the installation of software, except for packages that come from the official openSUSE repositories. ...then how would one install such things as SAP or oracle or any other commercial software? Cheers Mathias -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Dne Čt 16. července 2015 14:27:08, Mathias Homann napsal(a):
So how do you determine which software is "legally problematic"?
For example... in the USA there are several patents that prevent certain things to be included in linux distributions, but in germany software patents do not exist.
So the only way to technically do what you suggest would be to completely prevent the installation of software, except for packages that come from the official openSUSE repositories.
...then how would one install such things as SAP or oracle or any other commercial software?
There is huge difference between distribution and installation. So overall if you as customer download something from legal distributor (SAP) then you can install their software just peachy. But SUSE unless they have a deal with the vendor cant install such thing. In case of SAP we are partners so we can provide it and be perfectly sure they are not going to sue our collective asses to moon. OTOH the most popular thing is multimedia there you have to adhere to patent law of the most strict region you want to be in, in this case USA. So in order to include ie mp4 decoder you would have to have deal with mpegla and pay the royalties. Or user can 1) ignore the patents and violate them 2) pay the royalties and then add the special repo, that cant be by default in openSUSE. We even cant recommend such repo because it can be argued that the user will just go for 1 instead of 2 and thus we, as in SUSE, convinced them to commit crime. Also if someone adds patented stuff to our build infrastructure and we are notified of the fact, we have to act upon the claim and usually remove the software. HTH Tom
Am 16.07.2015 um 14:38 schrieb Tomáš Chvátal:
There is huge difference between distribution and installation.
exactly. openSUSE doesn't distribute 'legally questionable' software, but the current 'one click install' mechanism makes it *very* easy to add foreign repositories and install things that you shouldn't have. but there is no way to change that without crippling the whole system. Cheers Mathias -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Dne Čt 16. července 2015 15:05:46, Mathias Homann napsal(a):
Am 16.07.2015 um 14:38 schrieb Tomáš Chvátal:
There is huge difference between distribution and installation.
exactly. openSUSE doesn't distribute 'legally questionable' software, but the current 'one click install' mechanism makes it *very* easy to add foreign repositories and install things that you shouldn't have. but there is no way to change that without crippling the whole system.
Again we don't need to cripple that. We just can't promote it. If you go ahead and use some one-click-install to get you software it is just your choice to do so. All the software actually prints its license and informations so it is considered informed decision of that user to get his arse in jail in some countries. What we can't do is to actively promote it. Something along the lines "Click here to get all the multimedia and video codecs you will need" that pops-up right after installation. Or any other obvious hints. The OCI mechanisms are used for legitimate additions of repositories not just patent-based ones, so there is no need to remove such functionality. Cheers Tom
Hello, On Jul 16 14:27 Mathias Homann wrote (excerpt):
Am 16.07.2015 um 14:12 schrieb Johannes Meixner:
Pesonally I am against any package manager interaction when it is about installing packages where the legal state is not 100% clean for openSUSE.
I think openSUSE must not provide any kind of semi-automated installation of legally problematic software.
So how do you determine which software is "legally problematic"?
For example... in the USA there are several patents that prevent certain things to be included in linux distributions, but in germany software patents do not exist.
I am not a lawyer and I will not determine which software is "legally problematic" - instead it works the other way round: openSUSE provides only software that is not "legally problematic".
So the only way to technically do what you suggest would be to completely prevent the installation of software, except for packages that come from the official openSUSE repositories.
No. You misunderstood what I meant.
...then how would one install such things as SAP or oracle or any other commercial software?
As it is done right now: The admin of a system under a particular jurisdiction does it on his own in compliance with his particular laws. Of course you can buy a license for an additional proprietary software and install it on your system. The vendor of that proprietary software could even provide it to you via a zypper compatible repository so that you can "just install" it with the openSUSE package manager. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 16.07.2015 um 14:12 schrieb Johannes Meixner:
Is it perhaps possible to have by default a dummy installed instead of the actual piece of software that is needed to actually work with *.mp4 files?
Probably yes.
That dummy would only show information about the issue and what the user could do.
Just as an example assume in Firefox /usr/bin/vlc is set by default to be used for *.mp4 files.
Then we need to distinguish between HTML5 video support and video file playing capabilities. This thread started about something which could replace Flash which basically means "in-browser-viewing-capabilities" and therefore HTML5. Firefox (and other modern browsers) are supposed to support HTML5 video. But to do this an external player cannot be used. The player needs to be in the browser. (The codec not necessarily.) For Firefox that means that it supports out of the box: WebM with VP8 WebM with VP9 Ogg Theora The H.264 (many times referred to MP4 while that is a very rough match only) which is part of the HTML5 standard is not built in to Firefox because of patent concerns. But Firefox can and will use it if system GStreamer installation provides the decoding capabilities. In reality this is much more complex because there is also MSE (Media Source Extensions) and DRM support and not to forget the corresponding audio codecs. There is (or was?) also an enduser compatible solution for the codec problems. Fluendo used to sell a full GStreamer codec pack where the user pays for all included patents. I'm currently failing to find it though. Just saying that there likely is a way for some extra cost to avoid any legal concerns for the _enduser_ who does not care or is capable to fiddle around with whatever repository etc. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2015-07-16 at 14:57 +0200, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
There is (or was?) also an enduser compatible solution for the codec problems. Fluendo used to sell a full GStreamer codec pack where the user pays for all included patents. I'm currently failing to find it though. Just saying that there likely is a way for some extra cost to avoid any legal concerns for the _enduser_ who does not care or is capable to fiddle around with whatever repository etc.
For reference: http://www.oneplaydirect.com/oneplay/oneplay-codec-pack/
The MP3 codec can be downloaded for free (it's also part of the
openSUSE OSS repositories, thanks to an agreement with Fluendo to
redistribute it)
Cheers,
Dominique
--
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger schrieb:
The MP3 codec can be downloaded for free (it's also part of the openSUSE OSS repositories, thanks to an agreement with Fluendo to redistribute it)
Which is not too helpful, as most "MP4" (really H.264) video uses AAC audio and not MP3, and Firefox GStreamer support is deprecated as we can't make it work decently with dynamic stream switching (DASH, part of MSE) and the code for Firefox directly accessing ffmpeg is disabled by default due to similar legal question that stop openSUSE from shipping the patented codecs in the first place. KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 16.07.2015 um 17:28 schrieb Robert Kaiser:
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger schrieb:
The MP3 codec can be downloaded for free (it's also part of the openSUSE OSS repositories, thanks to an agreement with Fluendo to redistribute it)
Which is not too helpful, as most "MP4" (really H.264) video uses AAC audio and not MP3, and Firefox GStreamer support is deprecated as we can't make it work decently with dynamic stream switching (DASH, part of MSE) and the code for Firefox directly accessing ffmpeg is disabled by default due to similar legal question that stop openSUSE from shipping the patented codecs in the first place.
hmm, while that is probably more an upstream discussion I'm interested now since I didn't know that GStreamer is deprecated. Is there any pointer what Mozilla plans to do with H.264 and HTML5 <video>? After failure of WebM compared with H.264 is the new hope then Daala? Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Rosenauer schrieb:
Am 16.07.2015 um 17:28 schrieb Robert Kaiser:
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger schrieb:
The MP3 codec can be downloaded for free (it's also part of the openSUSE OSS repositories, thanks to an agreement with Fluendo to redistribute it)
Which is not too helpful, as most "MP4" (really H.264) video uses AAC audio and not MP3, and Firefox GStreamer support is deprecated as we can't make it work decently with dynamic stream switching (DASH, part of MSE) and the code for Firefox directly accessing ffmpeg is disabled by default due to similar legal question that stop openSUSE from shipping the patented codecs in the first place.
hmm, while that is probably more an upstream discussion I'm interested now since I didn't know that GStreamer is deprecated. Is there any pointer what Mozilla plans to do with H.264 and HTML5 <video>?
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=941298 is where we implemented the direct access to ffmpeg, and you only need a pref to actually flip on its usage. I don't find the conversation right now where it was said that GStreamer is deprecated, but it must have been around MSE-related technologies (stream switching) as well, I think, probably around making YouTube HTML5 with MSE be used on Linux as well.
After failure of WebM compared with H.264 is the new hope then Daala?
Yes. KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 07/16/2015 11:33 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 16.07.2015 um 17:28 schrieb Robert Kaiser:
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger schrieb:
The MP3 codec can be downloaded for free (it's also part of the openSUSE OSS repositories, thanks to an agreement with Fluendo to redistribute it)
Which is not too helpful, as most "MP4" (really H.264) video uses AAC audio and not MP3, and Firefox GStreamer support is deprecated as we can't make it work decently with dynamic stream switching (DASH, part of MSE) and the code for Firefox directly accessing ffmpeg is disabled by default due to similar legal question that stop openSUSE from shipping the patented codecs in the first place.
hmm, while that is probably more an upstream discussion I'm interested now since I didn't know that GStreamer is deprecated. Is there any pointer what Mozilla plans to do with H.264 and HTML5 <video>? After failure of WebM compared with H.264 is the new hope then Daala?
Wolfgang
Gstreamer is on by default in about:config in Firefox. Cheers! Roman -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJVqAJEAAoJEASCaFLNtAnncDkP/0PsxRwr3imFpkgY5KrUMW03 YMuEBMrbaILDCFu1NUma3suo3HIy8SnG1OLTwzlxpKxds3MWymgZAX0jj2Gj+UE2 ZHRTVpU+uyuHt+gcHfD/1WOSRqjG6LJKXHKWCWyiOX54S18veNUeeSaGDCjZrTSh L5/3xAWOZWeQdApkTua2KepvYxBTozvFx8jQvXEYfrqBO/AaL1oBHvSmH4DD0548 BQ/BJQceiTE4XSV0G0X+8Mq5g+UrC4CDF/idPpNDRMRnUOHqMP3ESMrouS2f79qC nMYW65dzr00YAcaaowBJsRomcJxINsR7jLp9AvpWgTWNnjW6Su07sYgDeihnXao8 IJYcwY4iqnYT8CUHZvrw+6uGe48e4tWgsCnC/O/07G6OlGgD5JuNvyjK4jxKGgIM 1siVttjTx6LtGzaZjuDY8op6bFct6G+gtjQXmZzqlWhRguaPJ1cSBXiB9UFrfCF4 7Ftcvn5EUFFDwxqqOtJsmvPTBcGRRTEROLcS057YgpgXUJ89Ppmxm1VfgRXNvzi9 9nrjCCQv4sClHnAVKZzXbyO49yhCdip1VjadHk6ZyY8h/LaG/HqIXtaBHWPc0Ezg LoaJgV723QU3w81iT1Cs/el15geafgsrNzQ2zFR8bFsRaNxGDyFj5+BLA4JLdYHF hfBJbCl/F2n4YbZ0Zqla =G2me -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thursday 2015-07-16 17:28, Robert Kaiser wrote:
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger schrieb:
The MP3 codec can be downloaded for free (it's also part of the openSUSE OSS repositories, thanks to an agreement with Fluendo to redistribute it)
[...] and the code for Firefox directly accessing ffmpeg is disabled by default due to similar legal question that stop openSUSE from shipping the patented codecs in the first place.
Well that sucks. ffmpeg is in openSUSE, so firefox should damn well make use of it (even if the codec is not there). That way, one only needs to replace ffmpeg (provided SONAME matches), and not go two steps and replace both ffmpeg and firefox with a build supporting it all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Jan Engelhardt schrieb:
On Thursday 2015-07-16 17:28, Robert Kaiser wrote:
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger schrieb:
The MP3 codec can be downloaded for free (it's also part of the openSUSE OSS repositories, thanks to an agreement with Fluendo to redistribute it)
[...] and the code for Firefox directly accessing ffmpeg is disabled by default due to similar legal question that stop openSUSE from shipping the patented codecs in the first place.
Well that sucks. ffmpeg is in openSUSE, so firefox should damn well make use of it (even if the codec is not there).
That way, one only needs to replace ffmpeg (provided SONAME matches), and not go two steps and replace both ffmpeg and firefox with a build supporting it all.
ffmpeg support is built into Firefox and only disabled via preferences. If you turn on a few prefs, fragmented MP4 via ffmpeg will just work in standard Firefox builds. That said, it's all experimental and I don't know the preference names right now. KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Jul 16 14:57 Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote (excerpt):
This thread started about something which could replace Flash which basically means "in-browser-viewing-capabilities" and therefore HTML5.
From that I guess (I don't know about Firefox internals)
Perhaps I confuse something here but see my other mail where I wrote that for me (Tumbleweed without Flash) YouTube worked but not http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/ I tried a video on the YouTube home page that just worked. As far as I understand what others have posted here this is because YouTube uses HTML5. But in contrast videos on http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/ did not work for me and here Firefox showed a popup that it got an *.mp4 file and asked me what it should do with it (that "Open with" versus "Save File" popup). that this time no HTML5 was used. What I like to tell is that it seems HTML5 alone could be not sufficient to replace Flash. I mean replacing Flash from an user experience point of view, not from a technical point of view.
Firefox (and other modern browsers) are supposed to support HTML5 video. But to do this an external player cannot be used. The player needs to be in the browser. (The codec not necessarily.)
For Firefox that means that it supports out of the box: WebM with VP8 WebM with VP9 Ogg Theora
The H.264 (many times referred to MP4 while that is a very rough match only) which is part of the HTML5 standard is not built in to Firefox because of patent concerns. But Firefox can and will use it if system GStreamer installation provides the decoding capabilities.
Do I understand it correctly that I got that popup in Firefox because Firefox could not find a H.264 codec? If yes, Firefox hides that information from the user which could be crucial at least for some users to proceed. The popup only reads: ------------------------------------------------------------- Opening i248rqwejb_dskfz_16473657_oe85.mp4 You have chosen to open: i248rqwejb_dskfz_16473657_oe85.mp4 which is: MP4 file (12.3 MB) from: http://video3.spiegel.de What should Firefox do with this file? (*) Open with [Browse...] ( ) Save File [ ] Do this automatically for files like this from now on. [Cancel] [OK] ------------------------------------------------------------- If Firefox would have additionally shown its internal knowledge why it shows me that popup (e.g. because it needs a H.264 codec but cannot find one) it would have helped to get an idea what the actual reason is why it does not "just work" in this case. Just for fun: In that popup click on its default selection [Browse...] (or just click [OK]) and follow the further dialogs in good faith to get a solution until you are lost ;-) Addendum 1: Regarding H.264 versus MP4 very rough match: It is Firefox that tells me that it is a "MP4 file". I only used what Firefox had stated what this thingy is. It would have already helped if Firefox had shown it as "H.264 or MPEG-4 Part 10, Advanced Video Coding (MPEG-4 AVC)" video coding format. Addendum 2: Meanwhile I can play H.264/MPEG-4 AVC videos via /usr/bin/vlc but Firefox still shows that popup which means there is a difference between "no codec for H.264/MPEG-4 AVC installed" and "Firefox cannot find a codec for H.264/MPEG-4 AVC". Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 16.07.2015 um 17:44 schrieb Johannes Meixner:
Hello,
On Jul 16 14:57 Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote (excerpt):
This thread started about something which could replace Flash which basically means "in-browser-viewing-capabilities" and therefore HTML5.
Perhaps I confuse something here but see my other mail where I wrote that for me (Tumbleweed without Flash) YouTube worked but not http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/
I tried a video on the YouTube home page that just worked. As far as I understand what others have posted here this is because YouTube uses HTML5.
But in contrast videos on http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/ did not work for me and here Firefox showed a popup that it got an *.mp4 file and asked me what it should do with it (that "Open with" versus "Save File" popup). From that I guess (I don't know about Firefox internals) that this time no HTML5 was used.
Just out of curiosity I was just failing to find a video on the site above but only photos. Do you have any direct url probably which shows that?
What I like to tell is that it seems HTML5 alone could be not sufficient to replace Flash.
It should (for videos obviously not necessarily for games ;-))). But it's mainly the website owner who has the authority to make it work or fail depending on which media format he offers and if he insists on MSE or/and DRM and stuff. Flash is able to stream different media. Browsers with HTML5 are more limited and all support a different subset of the codecs. So in worst case a content owner has to provide more than one video and probably provide a H.264 and a WebM video so all the browsers find something to play. The problem is that many website owners do not move enough. I understand that Apple users have almost no issues to use the web even without Flash. This somehow implies that content providers have done their homework on the HTML5 side almost done. But as soon there is something non-Apple arriving they insist on Flash again apparently. At least this is my feeling. So the sooner Flash dies completely the better for everyone.
I mean replacing Flash from an user experience point of view, not from a technical point of view.
Again for videos the main responsibility is with the server side. Yes, it might be more complicated because they now have to deal with different browsers with different feature sets instead of one Flash player. But they already started to do that with Apple. So it's certainly not impossible. There just needs to be enough pressure from the consumer side.
The H.264 (many times referred to MP4 while that is a very rough match only) which is part of the HTML5 standard is not built in to Firefox because of patent concerns. But Firefox can and will use it if system GStreamer installation provides the decoding capabilities.
Do I understand it correctly that I got that popup in Firefox because Firefox could not find a H.264 codec?
Hard to say without finding this specific example. The website code can react on your browser capabilities and if it does not find H.264 supported it could offer an MP4 as download. I'm not sure why, because the chances are low that another app on your system can play it if your browser does not but anyway.
If yes, Firefox hides that information from the user which could be crucial at least for some users to proceed.
The popup only reads: ------------------------------------------------------------- Opening i248rqwejb_dskfz_16473657_oe85.mp4
You have chosen to open: i248rqwejb_dskfz_16473657_oe85.mp4 which is: MP4 file (12.3 MB) from: http://video3.spiegel.de
What should Firefox do with this file? (*) Open with [Browse...] ( ) Save File [ ] Do this automatically for files like this from now on.
[Cancel] [OK] -------------------------------------------------------------
If Firefox would have additionally shown its internal knowledge why it shows me that popup (e.g. because it needs a H.264 codec but cannot find one) it would have helped to get an idea what the actual reason is why it does not "just work" in this case.
The browser does not have that knowledge. The browser either sees a <video> element with a codec specification it can play and then play it or it will get a "download request" for any kind of file. The website decides what the browser should do.
Addendum 1: Regarding H.264 versus MP4 very rough match: It is Firefox that tells me that it is a "MP4 file". I only used what Firefox had stated what this thingy is. It would have already helped if Firefox had shown it as "H.264 or MPEG-4 Part 10, Advanced Video Coding (MPEG-4 AVC)" video coding format.
It doesn't know. The http reply just tells the browser the mimetype. Firefox than matches the mime-type it got with the system mime database and shows the result (shared-mime-info).
Addendum 2: Meanwhile I can play H.264/MPEG-4 AVC videos via /usr/bin/vlc but Firefox still shows that popup which means there is a difference between "no codec for H.264/MPEG-4 AVC installed" and "Firefox cannot find a codec for H.264/MPEG-4 AVC".
What does the video section of html5test.com tells you? You probably don't have MPEG-4 ASP support but you should have the others. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Jul 16 18:01 Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote (excerpt):
Am 16.07.2015 um 17:44 schrieb Johannes Meixner:
But in contrast videos on http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/ did not work for me and here Firefox showed a popup that it got an *.mp4 file and asked me what it should do with it (that "Open with" versus "Save File" popup). From that I guess (I don't know about Firefox internals) that this time no HTML5 was used.
Just out of curiosity I was just failing to find a video on the site above but only photos. Do you have any direct url probably which shows that?
Interesting differences! When I scroll down a bit on http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/ there is a "Videos|Fotostrecken" headline under which links to videos are shown - at least on my system. One example: http://www.spiegel.de/video/hai-forscher-vor-hawai-untersuchen-tiere-per-bla... On that video page there is a "URL" button and when I click on it it shows http://spon.de/vgPAP Is this already sufficient for you? Currently I fail to get a direct URL to such ant "MP4 file". Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Jul 16 18:26 Johannes Meixner wrote (excerpt):
One example: http://www.spiegel.de/video/hai-forscher-vor-hawai-untersuchen-tiere-per-bla...
On that video page there is a "URL" button and when I click on it it shows http://spon.de/vgPAP
At the top of the http://www.spiegel.de home page there is a link "Video" that leads to http://www.spiegel.de/video/ Clicking on just the first one that is shown there results that popup in Firefox about "MP4 file" for me. Now I have a direct URL to such a file: http://video3.spiegel.de/flash/26/23/1593262_1024x576_H264_HQ.mp4 Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 16.07.2015 um 18:32 schrieb Johannes Meixner:
Hello,
On Jul 16 18:26 Johannes Meixner wrote (excerpt):
One example: http://www.spiegel.de/video/hai-forscher-vor-hawai-untersuchen-tiere-per-bla...
On that video page there is a "URL" button and when I click on it it shows http://spon.de/vgPAP
At the top of the http://www.spiegel.de home page there is a link "Video" that leads to
Clicking on just the first one that is shown there results that popup in Firefox about "MP4 file" for me.
Now I have a direct URL to such a file:
http://video3.spiegel.de/flash/26/23/1593262_1024x576_H264_HQ.mp4
Ok, as was already written the site is using JWplayer and they are providing H.264 video files only apparently. So if your Firefox does not find the proper GStreamer decoder that might be the reason why jwplayer offers to download the file directly instead of streaming it through the player to you.
From reading the source, their site was optimized for iPad and Flash ;-) And as everyone has Flash but iPad users they provide only HTML5 video files for H.264 since this is the (only?) supported one by iPad and friends. It's even worse because they their detection finds my Flash plugin which is blocked though and do not offer at all the JWplayer option with H.264 although it would play fine on my system. I finally removed Flash completely and voila I get a video. Seems I'll try to live completely w/o Flash instead of using click-to-play. It seems to be even better for broken media detections on websites.
Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Donnerstag, 16. Juli 2015 schrieb Wolfgang Rosenauer:
It's even worse because they their detection finds my Flash plugin which is blocked though
That's an interesting point I also noticed on youtube [1]. So the question is - would it make sense to change firefox so that it doesn't "announce" the availability of the flash plugin if it's in click-to-enable state? IMHO it would have the advantage that websites that have a non-flash version will actually deliver that version.
and do not offer at all the JWplayer option with H.264 although it would play fine on my system. I finally removed Flash completely and voila I get a video. Seems I'll try to live completely w/o Flash instead of using click-to-play. It seems to be even better for broken media detections on websites.
See my proposal above ;-) Sounds Regards, Christian Boltz [1] let's ignore the manually set "I want HTML5!" cookie for now and focus on the default behaviour instead -- Mein Spamassassin läuft überhaupt nicht. Trotzdem wurden in evolution beachtliche Mengen Spam gefiltert - weil anscheinend diverse zuliefernde Mailserver Spamassassin verwenden und den X-Spam Header setzen. Mein eigener Spamassassin steht seit einem Jahr in der Ecke, dreht Däumchen und lacht sich 'nen Ast. [Ratti in suse-linux] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Jul 16 22:03 Christian Boltz wrote (excerpt):
... would it make sense to change firefox so that it doesn't "announce" the availability of the flash plugin if it's in click-to-enable state? IMHO it would have the advantage that websites that have a non-flash version will actually deliver that version.
I disagree. I use since some time Adobe Flash Player in Firefox with "click-to-enable" to be more safe against possible attacks via Flash in advertisments or whatever other third-party content on web sites. But I have Adobe Flash Player installed because I want to be able to use it when I want it (i.e. when I explicitly click on one particular Flash content). I think for your proposal a separated setting in Firefox would be needed like "do-not-announce-flash". Cf. RFC 1925: It is always possible to aglutenate multiple separate problems into a single complex interdependent solution. In most cases this is a bad idea. ... One size never fits all. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-17 09:17, Johannes Meixner wrote:
Hello,
On Jul 16 22:03 Christian Boltz wrote (excerpt):
... would it make sense to change firefox so that it doesn't "announce" the availability of the flash plugin if it's in click-to-enable state? IMHO it would have the advantage that websites that have a non-flash version will actually deliver that version.
I disagree.
I use since some time Adobe Flash Player in Firefox with "click-to-enable" to be more safe against possible attacks via Flash in advertisments or whatever other third-party content on web sites.
But I have Adobe Flash Player installed because I want to be able to use it when I want it (i.e. when I explicitly click on one particular Flash content).
I do the same, but with FlashBlock, which is more versatile. Thus, I never allow any advertisement using flash to display, and only enable it on the sites (and the precise section of the window) where I absolutely need Flash to run. Some sites have several flash animations, and I only want one of them to run. FlashBlock allows control of this.
I think for your proposal a separated setting in Firefox would be needed like "do-not-announce-flash".
Cf. RFC 1925: It is always possible to aglutenate multiple separate problems into a single complex interdependent solution. In most cases this is a bad idea. ... One size never fits all.
Maybe... an idea. If both flash and html5 are available, who chooses what to use, the web page or the browser? If it is the browser, maybe the preference order can be altered or defined? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWox1cACgkQja8UbcUWM1xvCwD5AYdzFZ7tpDT8K9K8b3lHtpkv l3pBlmG7XUxQTMwvAoIBAIBiS6JI0U4Kad+bf2YVmiM0Htevi0HPxav5LbVDcZb7 =ghA4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thursday 2015-07-16 17:44, Johannes Meixner wrote:
The [firefox] popup only reads: ------------------------------------------------------------- Opening i248rqwejb_dskfz_16473657_oe85.mp4
You have chosen to open: i248rqwejb_dskfz_16473657_oe85.mp4 which is: MP4 file (12.3 MB) from: http://video3.spiegel.de
What should Firefox do with this file? ------------------------------------------------------------- Regarding H.264 versus MP4 very rough match: It is Firefox that tells me that it is a "MP4 file". I only used what Firefox had stated what this thingy is. It would have already helped if Firefox had shown it as "H.264 or MPEG-4 Part 10, Advanced Video Coding (MPEG-4 AVC)" video coding format.
Well, for all firefox knows, it's a "video/mp4" MIME type, corresponding to MPEG-4 Parts 12/14. I would postulate that it has no idea about Part 2, 3, or 10. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu 16 Jul 2015 05:44:09 PM CDT, Johannes Meixner wrote:
Hello,
On Jul 16 14:57 Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote (excerpt):
This thread started about something which could replace Flash which basically means "in-browser-viewing-capabilities" and therefore HTML5.
Perhaps I confuse something here but see my other mail where I wrote that for me (Tumbleweed without Flash) YouTube worked but not http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/
I tried a video on the YouTube home page that just worked. As far as I understand what others have posted here this is because YouTube uses HTML5.
But in contrast videos on http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/ did not work for me and here Firefox showed a popup that it got an *.mp4 file and asked me what it should do with it (that "Open with" versus "Save File" popup). From that I guess (I don't know about Firefox internals) that this time no HTML5 was used.
What I like to tell is that it seems HTML5 alone could be not sufficient to replace Flash.
I mean replacing Flash from an user experience point of view, not from a technical point of view.
Firefox (and other modern browsers) are supposed to support HTML5 video. But to do this an external player cannot be used. The player needs to be in the browser. (The codec not necessarily.)
For Firefox that means that it supports out of the box: WebM with VP8 WebM with VP9 Ogg Theora
The H.264 (many times referred to MP4 while that is a very rough match only) which is part of the HTML5 standard is not built in to Firefox because of patent concerns. But Firefox can and will use it if system GStreamer installation provides the decoding capabilities.
Do I understand it correctly that I got that popup in Firefox because Firefox could not find a H.264 codec?
If yes, Firefox hides that information from the user which could be crucial at least for some users to proceed.
The popup only reads: ------------------------------------------------------------- Opening i248rqwejb_dskfz_16473657_oe85.mp4
You have chosen to open: i248rqwejb_dskfz_16473657_oe85.mp4 which is: MP4 file (12.3 MB) from: http://video3.spiegel.de
What should Firefox do with this file? (*) Open with [Browse...] ( ) Save File [ ] Do this automatically for files like this from now on.
[Cancel] [OK] -------------------------------------------------------------
If Firefox would have additionally shown its internal knowledge why it shows me that popup (e.g. because it needs a H.264 codec but cannot find one) it would have helped to get an idea what the actual reason is why it does not "just work" in this case.
Just for fun: In that popup click on its default selection [Browse...] (or just click [OK]) and follow the further dialogs in good faith to get a solution until you are lost ;-)
Addendum 1: Regarding H.264 versus MP4 very rough match: It is Firefox that tells me that it is a "MP4 file". I only used what Firefox had stated what this thingy is. It would have already helped if Firefox had shown it as "H.264 or MPEG-4 Part 10, Advanced Video Coding (MPEG-4 AVC)" video coding format.
Addendum 2: Meanwhile I can play H.264/MPEG-4 AVC videos via /usr/bin/vlc but Firefox still shows that popup which means there is a difference between "no codec for H.264/MPEG-4 AVC installed" and "Firefox cannot find a codec for H.264/MPEG-4 AVC".
Kind Regards Johannes Meixner
Hi I use the fluendo codec bundle on Tumbleweed, it works fine on that site with firefox, they use jw player. What gstreamer codecs do you have installed? -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° LFCS, SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890) SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 12 GNOME 3.10.1 Kernel 3.12.43-52.6-default up 3 days 15:14, 4 users, load average: 0.36, 0.28, 0.23 CPU AMD A4-5150M APU @ 3.3GHz | GPU Richland Radeon HD 8350G -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Jul 16 11:31 Malcolm wrote (excerpt):
I use the fluendo codec bundle on Tumbleweed, it works fine on that site with firefox, they use jw player.
I fail to get it. By Googling for "fluendo codec opensuse" I found http://software.opensuse.org/codecs and clicking there on the "Fluendo Webshop" link https://shop.fluendo.com/?referrer=opensuse leads to a "403 Forbidden". Same end-user experience via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluendo there at the bottom the "Fluendo Shop: End User Products" link https://www.fluendo.com/shop/category/end-user-products/ also leads to a "403 Forbidden".
What gstreamer codecs do you have installed?
I cannot answer that question because I don't know hwo to find out what files or software packages are "gstreamer codecs". What I had installed regarding 'gstreamer' was: # rpm -qa | grep -i gstreamer gstreamer-1.4.5-2.4.x86_64 gstreamer-fluendo-mp3-21-1.1.x86_64 libgstreamer-1_0-0-1.4.5-2.4.x86_64 PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin-1.0.6-1.5.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-base-1.4.5-1.4.x86_64 # zypper search -d gstreamer | grep -i codec and # zypper search -d codec | grep -i gstreamer find something that I do not have installed but I have no idea what I would need. I am a total newbie in this area (see my other mail). I used to use Adobe Flash Player because this is what one gets from openSUSE out of the box. This was my first attempt in this area. Somehow I managed to view "MP4" videos. But I feel unhappy with that kind of software because I fail to get certainity whether or not that software is legally o.k. Therefore I stoppend this experiment and deleted the whole virtual machine. I am now again using only software that is provided by openSUSE. Here my user experience with only software from openSUSE: Install a plain X-only Tumbleweed system (no desktop). A few minutes later log in as root and do: # zypper search firefox notice that the package name is "MozillaFirefox" # zypper install MozillaFirefox # zypper search flash notice that the package name is "flash-player" # zypper install flash-player agree with its license (needs explicit typing "yes", cf. what Tomas Chvatal wrote) Launch Firefox, go to http://www.spiegel.de/ everything there "just works". I do not have any personal preference what is better. With Adobe Flash Player or without it. Obviously Adobe Flash Player is bad software (proprietary and with an endless sequence of security issues) but its legal state is clear and it is redistributable and one can "just view videos" in the browser. On the other hand there are various kind of also bad software because their legal state is not clear (at least not clear for unexperienced users). I only liked to tell about my personal user experience and that is certainly not a representative example for unexperienced end user experience. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Johannes Meixner [17.07.2015 10:40]:
Hello,
On Jul 16 11:31 Malcolm wrote (excerpt):
I use the fluendo codec bundle on Tumbleweed, it works fine on that site with firefox, they use jw player.
I fail to get it.
By Googling for "fluendo codec opensuse" I found http://software.opensuse.org/codecs and clicking there on the "Fluendo Webshop" link https://shop.fluendo.com/?referrer=opensuse leads to a "403 Forbidden".
Same end-user experience via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluendo there at the bottom the "Fluendo Shop: End User Products" link https://www.fluendo.com/shop/category/end-user-products/ also leads to a "403 Forbidden".
Maybe I'm just an idiot, but when I hear from a fluendo codec bundle on my box, I open YaST and do a software search (for fluendo in this case). And Yast shows me gstreamer-0_10-plugins-fluendo_mp3. From the name, this is what I look for. Plus, I find gstreamer-fluendo-mp3 and pullin-fluendo-mp3, which might both be something I try. BTW, I find the gstreamer-0_10-plugins-fluendo_mp3 because I activated the Packman repos, as recommended :). But the latter two packages belong to the distro.
What gstreamer codecs do you have installed?
I cannot answer that question because I don't know hwo to find out what files or software packages are "gstreamer codecs".
Why can't you use YaST? :) Further down in your mail you are even able to use the commandline to use zypper and rpm for searching and installing. Regards, Werner --
Hello, On Jul 17 12:44 Werner Flamme wrote (excerpt):
gstreamer-0_10-plugins-fluendo_mp3 gstreamer-fluendo-mp3 pullin-fluendo-mp3,
Why did you cut what I had written: --------------------------------------------------------- What I had installed regarding 'gstreamer' was: # rpm -qa | grep -i gstreamer gstreamer-1.4.5-2.4.x86_64 gstreamer-fluendo-mp3-21-1.1.x86_64 libgstreamer-1_0-0-1.4.5-2.4.x86_64 PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin-1.0.6-1.5.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-base-1.4.5-1.4.x86_64 --------------------------------------------------------- I do have that thingy installed as gstreamer-fluendo-mp3-21-1.1.x86_64 but that does not work for what I like to do.
I activated the Packman repos
From that I assume that with a "...mp3..." software package one cannot view a so called "MP4" video - in particular not when for a video data stream MPEG-4 Part 10 (H.264/MPEG-4 AVC) is used because - as far as I know - that requires a codec (strictly speaking only the second part of it - a decoder)
With third party software it also worked for me to play a so called "MP4" video (strictly speaking to decode a MPEG-4 Part 10 (H.264/MPEG-4 AVC) video data stream. For me this does not work when I try it with what openSUSE provides. Werner Flamme. you must install plain openSUSE without any third-party software, then you can tell what need to be done to get a H.264/MPEG-4 AVC video data stream decoded. As far as I meanwhile understand the whole thing it would be a legal issue if it had worked to decode a H.264 video data stream with any software that is provided by openSUSE. Furthermore I would be astonished to learn that a "...mp3..." software also supports so called "MP4". I assume Wikipedia is at least basically correct that "MPEG-1 or MPEG-2 Audio Layer III,[4] more commonly referred to as MP3, is an audio coding format" while in contrast "MPEG-4 Part 14 or MP4 is a digital multimedia format most commonly used to store video and audio," that cannot be provided by openSUSE. But that is meanwhile all technical geeks stuff. But my primary intent is not the technical stuff. It is clear that openSUSE cannot provide such software so that obviously this cannot work out of the box. My primary intent was to show that there is no useful end-user information when an unexperienced user installs openSUSE without Adobe Flash Player and "just browses" the Internet. When the user hits web content that cannot be preocessed with software that openSUSE is allowed to provide, then the user does not get useful information what the issue is about and an unexperienced user is then lost. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, Am 17.07.2015 um 14:23 schrieb Johannes Meixner:
I do have that thingy installed as gstreamer-fluendo-mp3-21-1.1.x86_64 but that does not work for what I like to do.
gstreamer-fluendo-mp3 plays MP3 (MPEG1 Layer 3) audio as the name implies indeed.
For me this does not work when I try it with what openSUSE provides.
as expected unfortunately.
Werner Flamme. you must install plain openSUSE without any third-party software, then you can tell what need to be done to get a H.264/MPEG-4 AVC video data stream decoded.
For Firefox you should have in addition gstreamer-plugins-libav This would be enough.
As far as I meanwhile understand the whole thing it would be a legal issue if it had worked to decode a H.264 video data stream with any software that is provided by openSUSE.
"Legal issue" is something non-defined. If openSUSE wouldn't be somehow related to SUSE which is again somehow related to the US there would be no legal issue most likely. Also for you as a openSUSE user in Germany there is no legal issue (IANAL) to use H.264 decoders.
It is clear that openSUSE cannot provide such software so that obviously this cannot work out of the box.
I'm not sure why _openSUSE_ cannot provide such software as long as SUSE has nothing to do with it. (I could imagine that this disconnect is unfortunately nothing easily accepted by court :-()
My primary intent was to show that there is no useful end-user information when an unexperienced user installs openSUSE without Adobe Flash Player and "just browses" the Internet.
If the argument that openSUSE "cannot" provide the software is valid then openSUSE also cannot communicate how to workaround this limitation I guess.
When the user hits web content that cannot be preocessed with software that openSUSE is allowed to provide, then the user does not get useful information what the issue is about and an unexperienced user is then lost.
Yes, thanks to software patents and the US the rest of the world has to suffer. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Jul 17 14:38 Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote (excerpt):
Am 17.07.2015 um 14:23 schrieb Johannes Meixner:
My primary intent was to show that there is no useful end-user information when an unexperienced user installs openSUSE without Adobe Flash Player and "just browses" the Internet.
If the argument that openSUSE "cannot" provide the software is valid then openSUSE also cannot communicate how to workaround this limitation I guess.
When the user hits web content that cannot be preocessed with software that openSUSE is allowed to provide, then the user does not get useful information what the issue is about and an unexperienced user is then lost.
Yes, thanks to software patents and the US the rest of the world has to suffer.
I do not propose that openSUSE should tell the user what to to to get such software (cf. what Tomas Chvatal wrote). Instead I meant useful information what the issue is about - for example a popup in Firefox like: ------------------------------------------------------------------- Opening i248rqwejb_dskfz_16473657_oe85.mp4 You have chosen to open: i248rqwejb_dskfz_16473657_oe85.mp4 which is: MP4 file (12.3 MB) from: http://video3.spiegel.de Firefox cannot display that file content because it is a so called "MP4" video it contains a H.264/MPEG-4 AVC encoded video data stream Firefox cannot find a decoder for H.264/MPEG-4 AVC Firefox needs a H.264/MPEG-4 AVC decoder to display that file. Such software is commonly called "H264 codec" or "AVC codec". If you already have H.264/MPEG-4 AVC decoder software installed Firefox cannot find it or cannot use it. For further information see http://support.mozilla.org/de/products/firefox/h264.html Alternatively when you have video player software installed that can display so called "MP4" video files, you could open this file with your video player software program. Finally you could save the file for later use. What should Firefox do now? (*) Show http://support.mozilla.org/de/products/firefox/h264.html ( ) Open this file with [Browse...] ( ) Save File [ ] Do this automatically for files like this from now on. [Cancel] [OK] ------------------------------------------------------------------- Now the popup is no longer generic but its content depends on the file content. This is probably a bigger feature request for Firefox upstream. When clicking [OK] the user gets more information from http://support.mozilla.org/de/products/firefox/h264.html On that Firefox help page I would expect to learn more about what a "H.264/MPEG-4 AVC encoded video data stream" is and what a "H.264/MPEG-4 AVC decoder" is and also how one could make some commonly known H264 decoder software findable and usable by Firefox and what commonly known H264 decoder software cannot be used by Firefox. I think this could help even unexperienced users because they are no longer left alone with the current generic but basically useless popup. Even if some users might feel overstrained with so many technical terms, they get at least those technical terms known so that they can ask more meaningful questions. "Hey! I tried out your Lunix thingy but it simply fails. Your browser aborts with a blue screen that blabbers about CPU registers like H.264/MPEG-4 AVC and so on!" ;-) Have a nice weekend! Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-17 16:06, Johannes Meixner wrote:
My primary intent was to show that there is no useful end-user information when an unexperienced user installs openSUSE without Adobe Flash Player and "just browses" the Internet.
...
"Hey! I tried out your Lunix thingy but it simply fails. Your browser aborts with a blue screen that blabbers about CPU registers like H.264/MPEG-4 AVC and so on!"
;-)
You are right :-) About Fluendo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluendo «Fluendo S.A. is a private company founded by Julien Moutte, Pascal Pegaz and Thomas Vander Stichele based in Barcelona, Spain. Fluendo aims at improving the global multimedia experience in the Free Software world by funding, developing and maintaining the GStreamer media framework and providing a wide range of, both commercial and free, products on top of it.» That is, Fluendo is payware, legal, software that allows user to play all multimedia content, in exchange for euros. I suppose that openSUSE can not directly link to them when a video fails to play, because that would be favouring a particular business. But it is the currently only legal way in all parts of the world. Outside of the USA, we can use packman instead ;-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWpKWgACgkQja8UbcUWM1wnHQD9ErkCbyx7zG4cANo2pmzHBD0a V+z0p3deJ4iLyu3iwLwA/3w5+2MECqSJjkbW5kfhZe8YG7vF+uSmv6skgSGlxJBi =jSBo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri 17 Jul 2015 10:40:54 AM CDT, Johannes Meixner wrote:
Hello,
On Jul 16 11:31 Malcolm wrote (excerpt):
I use the fluendo codec bundle on Tumbleweed, it works fine on that site with firefox, they use jw player.
I fail to get it.
By Googling for "fluendo codec opensuse" I found http://software.opensuse.org/codecs and clicking there on the "Fluendo Webshop" link https://shop.fluendo.com/?referrer=opensuse leads to a "403 Forbidden".
Same end-user experience via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluendo there at the bottom the "Fluendo Shop: End User Products" link https://www.fluendo.com/shop/category/end-user-products/ also leads to a "403 Forbidden".
What gstreamer codecs do you have installed?
I cannot answer that question because I don't know hwo to find out what files or software packages are "gstreamer codecs".
What I had installed regarding 'gstreamer' was: # rpm -qa | grep -i gstreamer gstreamer-1.4.5-2.4.x86_64 gstreamer-fluendo-mp3-21-1.1.x86_64 libgstreamer-1_0-0-1.4.5-2.4.x86_64 PackageKit-gstreamer-plugin-1.0.6-1.5.x86_64 gstreamer-plugins-base-1.4.5-1.4.x86_64
# zypper search -d gstreamer | grep -i codec and # zypper search -d codec | grep -i gstreamer find something that I do not have installed but I have no idea what I would need.
I am a total newbie in this area (see my other mail). I used to use Adobe Flash Player because this is what one gets from openSUSE out of the box.
This was my first attempt in this area. Somehow I managed to view "MP4" videos. But I feel unhappy with that kind of software because I fail to get certainity whether or not that software is legally o.k.
Therefore I stoppend this experiment and deleted the whole virtual machine. I am now again using only software that is provided by openSUSE.
Here my user experience with only software from openSUSE: Install a plain X-only Tumbleweed system (no desktop). A few minutes later log in as root and do: # zypper search firefox notice that the package name is "MozillaFirefox" # zypper install MozillaFirefox # zypper search flash notice that the package name is "flash-player" # zypper install flash-player agree with its license (needs explicit typing "yes", cf. what Tomas Chvatal wrote) Launch Firefox, go to http://www.spiegel.de/ everything there "just works".
I do not have any personal preference what is better. With Adobe Flash Player or without it.
Obviously Adobe Flash Player is bad software (proprietary and with an endless sequence of security issues) but its legal state is clear and it is redistributable and one can "just view videos" in the browser.
On the other hand there are various kind of also bad software because their legal state is not clear (at least not clear for unexperienced users).
I only liked to tell about my personal user experience and that is certainly not a representative example for unexperienced end user experience.
Kind Regards Johannes Meixner
Hi They moved to.... http://www.oneplaydirect.com/oneplay/oneplay-codec-pack/ You use the gst-inspect-1.0 to see all the information, then per plugin. AFAIK it's the rtp plugin via gstreamer-plugins-good. -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° LFCS, SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890) SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 12 GNOME 3.10.1 Kernel 3.12.43-52.6-default up 4 days 11:22, 4 users, load average: 0.33, 0.27, 0.23 CPU AMD A4-5150M APU @ 3.3GHz | GPU Richland Radeon HD 8350G -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 13:31:16 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-14 13:16, Martin Pluskal wrote:
Really? Is openSUSE targeting people who can't install software?
Yep. See the guiding principles
Please point me to part of guiding principles which you are referring to. I fail to see anything mentioning users not needing to install software/packages. There is mentioned "easy access to Free and Open Source Software." which adobe flash player is definitely not. Martin
On Tue, 2015-07-14 at 13:16 +0200, Martin Pluskal wrote:
It doesn't matter to me, I know how to install things. But a newbe doesn't. He just goes to a page, and he gets an error from the web page. Hey, you don't have Flash! Shall we install it for you? Why not, go ahead. Really? Is openSUSE targeting people who can't install software? Also, should not we install everything by default just in case that something might go wrong during installation then?
Not install package X to just-install-everything is Fallacy Of The Undifferentiated Middle. Should a desktop, upon install, without additional remediation, be useful for the the variety of tasks an actual user will commonly want to perform? That is the question. As someone who has installed desktops for people - the oh-crap-yeah-I -also-have-to-install-X - is very annoying. Why if I end up installing X every time is that not a meaningful data point? -- Adam Tauno Williams mailto:awilliam@whitemice.org GPG D95ED383 Systems Administrator, Python Developer, LPI / NCLA -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Is openSUSE targeting people who can't install software? Also, should not we install everything by default just in case that something might go wrong during installation then?
Not install package X to just-install-everything is Fallacy Of The Undifferentiated Middle. I don't think so [1][2]. Also it was meant more like a rhetorical question, following ad absurdum argumentation by Carlos
Should a desktop, upon install, without additional remediation, be useful for the the variety of tasks an actual user will commonly want to perform? I doubt usability of having flash available in default installation, I don't have flash on my smart-phone or my tablet nor on my desktop - and I don't miss it anywhere. I can watch videos on YouTube, I can work with my online banking, I can watch porn. If somebody is unlucky and his bank requires him to have flash, he can install it. If your kids want flash games - install it. If you want to have flash installed just for joy of having it - feel free to install it. But please don't push it to default installation (or rather in this case
On Tuesday 14 of July 2015 07:46:48 Adam Tauno Williams wrote: try preventing removal of it). Martin [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_undistributed_middle [2] http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/91-fallacy-of...
On 14/07/15 10:41, Per Jessen wrote: Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Monday 13 July 2015 22.29:43 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-13 21:18, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Monday 13 July 2015 21.08:50 Yamaban wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 21:00, Richard Brown wrote:
On 13 July 2015 at 16:51, David Disseldorp wrote:
+1 there's enough alternatives now outside, and if the flash-player can be installed alone it make perfect sense
I don't see any practical alternative, when even my bank uses flash. I have to install it, be it default or optional. Otherwise, I'd have to use the proprietary Chrome.
Removing it from default pattern is just an inconvenience.
-- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
As I've said there's alternative. Use your phone, change bank. create a docker instance with need crap etc ...
Not very helpful, Bruno. Why should we make life more difficult for our plain non-techie users? None of those are genuine alternatives.
+1 True for me - I am a plain old desktop user with no smartphone and do not want to change my bank. I know enough to use a Flash-block plug-in and can choose which sites I trust (such as my bank). I have no idea whether plug-ins can be pre-installed at install time, but if that is possible then that is the route I would choose. However .... It is my guess that most Linux users have at least that level of awareness, but in truth I have no idea and apart from better education I can't see how to help non-technical users from becoming victims of these vulnerabilities. All of the friends that I have helped with their computers are Windows users and all of them were using accounts with admin privilege for their everyday work. I have spent most of my time with them teaching them a little bit about basic security. Most of them have no idea what Flash does. rgds, David. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 14 July 2015 at 13:09, David Cooper
+1
True for me - I am a plain old desktop user with no smartphone and do not want to change my bank.
I know enough to use a Flash-block plug-in and can choose which sites I trust (such as my bank). I have no idea whether plug-ins can be pre-installed at install time, but if that is possible then that is the route I would choose.
However ....
It is my guess that most Linux users have at least that level of awareness, but in truth I have no idea and apart from better education I can't see how to help non-technical users from becoming victims of these vulnerabilities.
All of the friends that I have helped with their computers are Windows users and all of them were using accounts with admin privilege for their everyday work. I have spent most of my time with them teaching them a little bit about basic security. Most of them have no idea what Flash does.
rgds, David.
On windows, Flash is still a seperate download which must be installed ( https://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/?no_redirect ) I think the sane default for openSUSE is to *not* install Flash by default We can still have it in the non-oss repo for people who need it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 13:12, Richard Brown wrote:
On windows, Flash is still a seperate download which must be installed ( https://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/?no_redirect )
That's true. But then you get the suggestion in the web page to click and install it, which does work, in Windows, but not in Linux. That's why it is installed by default in Linux. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWk86cACgkQja8UbcUWM1xsVAD/VyeAteVYaSUfJjWg3p1K7sPl PbDVRkVEjpOuHi3I/cgA/1Ds9G5midDOUP7m4kHIfdNTZ7EG2lGOXykWFHVn+ksw =nT2j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Jul 14 13:12 Richard Brown wrote (excerpt):
I think the sane default for openSUSE is to *not* install Flash by default. We can still have it in the non-oss repo for people who need it.
What is your ultimate goal with that? Get it really more secure or get rid of more users? ;-) Seriously: When you start talking about "sane" it sounds as if you think that the opposite is "insane". In this case I would like to get a comprehensible explanation why something is considered to be "insane". Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 13:09, David Cooper wrote:
I know enough to use a Flash-block plug-in and can choose which sites I trust (such as my bank). I have no idea whether plug-ins can be pre-installed at install time, but if that is possible then that is the route I would choose.
Yes, they can. I have seen some installed that way in the past. Interesting idea, installing flashblock by default... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWk9AoACgkQja8UbcUWM1yXQgD/RXUCKrdOWFCSl6aYy+LGgNb+ 8BsF8lSJ84Zal+loBnkBAJJrUHKmS794GEmZ7boNso2wWIAZkjfGFvopsL1RMtzS =froN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Carlos E. R.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2015-07-14 13:09, David Cooper wrote:
I know enough to use a Flash-block plug-in and can choose which sites I trust (such as my bank). I have no idea whether plug-ins can be pre-installed at install time, but if that is possible then that is the route I would choose.
Yes, they can. I have seen some installed that way in the past.
Interesting idea, installing flashblock by default...
Isn't this already covered by a core feature of Firefox? https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/set-adobe-flash-click-play-firefox Robert
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
iF4EAREIAAYFAlWk9AoACgkQja8UbcUWM1yXQgD/RXUCKrdOWFCSl6aYy+LGgNb+ 8BsF8lSJ84Zal+loBnkBAJJrUHKmS794GEmZ7boNso2wWIAZkjfGFvopsL1RMtzS =froN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- http://robert.muntea.nu/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 13:37, Robert Munteanu wrote:
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
Interesting idea, installing flashblock by default...
Isn't this already covered by a core feature of Firefox?
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/set-adobe-flash-click-play-firefox
I
don't know for sure...
I think I tried the feature but it did not work for me. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWk9j8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1z/VgEAikoOPcwtWm1wt8yC0KNhhSnU W9NU+EpTe1hvZc/zFcUA+gM+Z75+wW7wdJ1r33+Q/QA/kSc+LiSO7MEdF0xdjaDD =uFE4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 14.07.2015 um 13:45 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2015-07-14 13:37, Robert Munteanu wrote:
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
Interesting idea, installing flashblock by default...
Isn't this already covered by a core feature of Firefox?
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/set-adobe-flash-click-play-firefox
I
don't know for sure...
I think I tried the feature but it did not work for me.
I'm using Click-to-play for Flash for quite some time without any additional addons. Works fine for me. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 13:49, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 14.07.2015 um 13:45 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
I think I tried the feature but it did not work for me.
I'm using Click-to-play for Flash for quite some time without any additional addons. Works fine for me.
Sorry, I don't remember the issue I had. Does it block downloading of flash, before clicking? Static flash images? If click to play works, it should be activated by default, IMO. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWk+hEACgkQja8UbcUWM1wsMwD9FXOZn8PbO/MyaAavGpQs0fIF DFhy4Jt30KUbrk7fOQ8BAJ8vChe9wrhiyUywWfCC4rE3qMBKoyNoO7BXmDxGCfzB =o2UW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 14.07.2015 um 14:01 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
On 2015-07-14 13:49, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 14.07.2015 um 13:45 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
I think I tried the feature but it did not work for me.
I'm using Click-to-play for Flash for quite some time without any additional addons. Works fine for me.
Sorry, I don't remember the issue I had.
Does it block downloading of flash, before clicking? Static flash images?
If click to play works, it should be activated by default, IMO.
Actually I tried to find a setting but failed with FF 39 Could it already be default? In earlier versions of FF click-to-play got the default with an exception for Flash but I cannot find this exception anymore in the configuration and wondering if it still applies. I'll check. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 14.07.2015 um 13:45 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
I think I tried the feature but it did not work for me.
I'm using Click-to-play for Flash for quite some time without any additional addons. Works fine for me.
I can imagine stupid pages that block the click, making it impossible to activate Flash. -- Best Regards / S pozdravem, Stanislav Brabec software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s. r. o. e-mail: sbrabec@suse.com Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +49 911 7405384547 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 084 001 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ PGP: 830B 40D5 9E05 35D8 5E27 6FA3 717C 209F A04F CD76 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 14.07.2015 um 17:18 schrieb Stanislav Brabec:
Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 14.07.2015 um 13:45 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
I think I tried the feature but it did not work for me.
I'm using Click-to-play for Flash for quite some time without any additional addons. Works fine for me.
I can imagine stupid pages that block the click, making it impossible to activate Flash.
You can always activate it in the location bar or the notification bar. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 17:18, Stanislav Brabec wrote:
Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 14.07.2015 um 13:45 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
I think I tried the feature but it did not work for me.
I'm using Click-to-play for Flash for quite some time without any additional addons. Works fine for me.
I can imagine stupid pages that block the click, making it impossible to activate Flash.
Yes, I had some pages with a kind of race condition in order to enable flash. But I use flashblock, is more versatile. On youtube, for instance, there is a race between html5 and flash. Sometimes it is a pain to get any of them to run. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWlQ7EACgkQja8UbcUWM1zsHgD+Py+v/N1veYHl25W72leWiq7v QxQNfx752wK6XtU/PQsA/jNRXu1yy60rNHsDT45K1akYZ+TI/8ypwvjADYAlQ6QD =/n/b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/14/2015 01:15 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2015-07-14 17:18, Stanislav Brabec wrote:
Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 14.07.2015 um 13:45 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
I think I tried the feature but it did not work for me.
I'm using Click-to-play for Flash for quite some time without any additional addons. Works fine for me. I can imagine stupid pages that block the click, making it impossible to activate Flash. Yes, I had some pages with a kind of race condition in order to enable flash. But I use flashblock, is more versatile.
On youtube, for instance, there is a race between html5 and flash. Sometimes it is a pain to get any of them to run.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
iF4EAREIAAYFAlWlQ7EACgkQja8UbcUWM1zsHgD+Py+v/N1veYHl25W72leWiq7v QxQNfx752wK6XtU/PQsA/jNRXu1yy60rNHsDT45K1akYZ+TI/8ypwvjADYAlQ6QD =/n/b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If you want to disable Flash then the script for first time installation using Yast has to be changed. Personally, I think that we should leave it to be installed by default.
I remember over 12 years ago the package wasn't available as an rpm and we had to download the package from Adobe. Anyway.. In 5+ years - Flash will be a distant memory. ICQ: 551368250 Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. composed on 2015-07-14 19:15 (UTC+0200):
Stanislav Brabec wrote:
Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
I'm using Click-to-play for Flash for quite some time without any additional addons. Works fine for me.
I can imagine stupid pages that block the click, making it impossible to activate Flash.
Yes, I had some pages with a kind of race condition in order to enable flash. But I use flashblock, is more versatile.
On youtube, for instance, there is a race between html5 and flash. Sometimes it is a pain to get any of them to run.
Using Firefox ESR17 and Google to find something I want on Youtube I land on: https://www.youtube.com/supported_browsers?next_url=%2F Containing. [paste]Oops, your web browser is no longer supported. YouTube works with a wide range of browsers. However, if you'd like to use many of our latest and greatest features, please upgrade to a modern, fully supported browser. Find the latest versions of our supported browsers below. [ No thanks ][/paste] Clicking on the no thanks button brings up a results page, and clicking a result results in normal video playback. Flash is not present on the installation, confirmed by presence of the "additional plugins are required..." bar on the page playing the video (plugins.hide_infobar_for_missing_plugin is not set true). IOW, Firefox Youtubers should not need Flash, but will probably want plugins.hide_infobar_for_missing_plugin set true without it. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2015-07-13 21:18, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Monday 13 July 2015 21.08:50 Yamaban wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 21:00, Richard Brown wrote:
On 13 July 2015 at 16:51, David Disseldorp wrote:
+1 there's enough alternatives now outside, and if the flash-player can be installed alone it make perfect sense
I don't see any practical alternative, when even my bank uses flash. I have to install it, be it default or optional. Otherwise, I'd have to use the proprietary Chrome.
Removing it from default pattern is just an inconvenience.
Yeah, +1 to that. My son likes to play games @ miniclip, I think they're all flash. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.6°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 11:37, Per Jessen wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
Removing it from default pattern is just an inconvenience.
Yeah, +1 to that. My son likes to play games @ miniclip, I think they're all flash.
Business sites use it, even banks. Yes, they could use something else, but they don't. Multimedia sites, like TV stations, use it to distribute content over Internet. They don't offer alternatives. Oh, yes! Some use Silverlight. Is that any better? (No, I'm not asking, LOL). html5? Only youtube uses it, and it does not work. Do I like Flash? Certainly not. I hate it. It is very CPU intensive, for instance. It is vulnerable. I block it, with flashblock, and then manually allow when I do want to see the contents. But there is no choice... or rather, the choice is not mine to take. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWk6U8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xZJgD+O2SbjIzGSJ0P8KY1txjgeDzH j2o9VbUYQD3NTF3BhhIA/iuQmbT4P/6g/3yeLV1Q6pgtgBV66vomi7voipL2jxCv =vOTQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Richard Brown composed on 2015-07-13 21:00 (UTC+0200):
David Disseldorp wrote:
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
Any thoughts?
I think it's a great idea. We probably want to keep it as an option for those who can't live without, but I think you should opt-in to a package that constantly exploited.
When not installed, users are subjected to constant bombardment about missing plugin. plugins.hide_infobar_for_missing_plugin=true will probably need to be set in default Firefox prefs, and probably a relnote provided. Setting that pref would result in any other missing plugins failing to be announced. There may need to be an upstream change that omits Flash from ever being reported so that that pref setting can remain false until such time as all plugins are no longer supported. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 2015-07-13 at 16:51 +0200, David Disseldorp wrote:
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
Any thoughts?
+1 (Looking forward to not always having to set a lock on flash-player.) \Olav -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Jul 13 16:51 David Disseldorp wrote (excerpt):
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
What is your ultimate goal? If it is security, I think it does not really matter whether or not an insecure package is installed by default. I.e. when an insecure package is not installed by default but when it is provided by openSUSE to be installable, then maintenance updates for security issues are needed. If security in future openSUSE releases should be improved the insecure package would have to be completely dropped from future openSUSE releases (as far as I know). Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-07-14 11:04, Johannes Meixner wrote:
What is your ultimate goal?
If it is security, I think it does not really matter whether or not an insecure package is installed by default. I.e. when an insecure package is not installed by default but when it is provided by openSUSE to be installable, then maintenance updates for security issues are needed.
If security in future openSUSE releases should be improved the insecure package would have to be completely dropped from future openSUSE releases (as far as I know).
You are absolutely right... However, then users would have to get the package from somewhere else, and we would not update it as soon as possible, but when somebody or something tells us that maybe there is an update. Like FF refusing to run it. It is better, in that sense, that updates, insufficient as they may be, are provided by the usual automatic (for users) channels. Safer for us, users :-) Thus, thank you for providing the updates :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlWk6ogACgkQja8UbcUWM1yjugD6A5Qqf2+txq03oM/P3AAciXdT n6OQpIed9W6HZAWerYwA/if6ylq9h/YHdM5IeJZXIwTLZBcLX9lYQsVVxSfrJ+es =mEET -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Jul 14 12:55 Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2015-07-14 11:04, Johannes Meixner wrote:
What is your ultimate goal?
If it is security, I think it does not really matter whether or not an insecure package is installed by default. I.e. when an insecure package is not installed by default but when it is provided by openSUSE to be installable, then maintenance updates for security issues are needed.
If security in future openSUSE releases should be improved the insecure package would have to be completely dropped from future openSUSE releases (as far as I know).
You are absolutely right...
However, then users would have to get the package from somewhere else, and we would not update it as soon as possible, but when somebody or something tells us that maybe there is an update. Like FF refusing to run it.
It is better, in that sense, that updates, insufficient as they may be, are provided by the usual automatic (for users) channels. Safer for us, users :-)
Interesting thought: To make openSUSE actually more secure for end-users it is better when openSUSE provides (and maintains) usually needed but "known-to-be-insecure" software (if possible). In other words: We (openSUSE) should provide you (end-users) even "crap software" when the "crap software" is usually needed by you (provided it is legally allowed to provide it to you) because this way it is still better for you compared to when you would have to get the "crap software" on your own from whatever unknown place. I think the idea behind is valid. But I assume the problem is to find volunteers who like to maintain "crap software" for openSUSE and continuously deal with often somewhat demanding or even unfriendly users who have issues with "crap software" (unsurprisingly).
From 2003 to 2005 I was maintainer of the Adobe Reader. I would never ever maintain Adobe's Flash Player.
Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi Johannes, On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:04:54 +0200 (CEST), Johannes Meixner wrote:
On Jul 13 16:51 David Disseldorp wrote (excerpt):
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
What is your ultimate goal?
Improved security.
If it is security, I think it does not really matter whether or not an insecure package is installed by default. I.e. when an insecure package is not installed by default but when it is provided by openSUSE to be installable, then maintenance updates for security issues are needed.
I agree that updates are required regardless of whether it's installed by default or not. Still, I think the openSUSE userbase as a whole is at less risk if it isn't installed by default, and that the added inconvenience is IMO an acceptable price to pay.
If security in future openSUSE releases should be improved the insecure package would have to be completely dropped from future openSUSE releases (as far as I know).
As broken as it is, I don't think dropping flash completely will be an option for some time yet. Cheers, David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, On Jul 14 15:04 David Disseldorp wrote (excerpt):
On Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:04:54 +0200 (CEST), Johannes Meixner wrote: ...
What is your ultimate goal?
Improved security. ... I agree that updates are required regardless of whether it's installed by default or not. Still, I think the openSUSE userbase as a whole is at less risk if it isn't installed by default
I agree. Furthermore when flash-player is no longer installed by default we get better feedback how far it is actually still needed and what is perhaps missing to make a default openSUSE system normally usable even without the Adobe Flash Player. Later when openSUSE has become normally usable without Flash that insecure proprietary stuff could be completely dropped. A further idea to get the openSUSE userbase as a whole at less risk even when flash-player is installed: A question in particular for Wolfgang Rosenauer: Is it possible that Mozilla Firefox is by default installed with "Click-to-play for Flash" enabled? This way users who really need Flash (e.g. for their special super-secure online banking ;-) would not have it enabled all the time on any (possibly malicious) web sites. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 5:51 PM, David Disseldorp
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
Here's another side to the proposal - I recently noticed that my Firefox instance runs Flash 18, which I knew was not possible. My latest zypper dup seems to have pulled in freshplayerplugin [1], which aims to get PPAPI (Pepper) Flash player working in Firefox. Robert [1]: https://github.com/i-rinat/freshplayerplugin -- http://robert.muntea.nu/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag, 14. Juli 2015, 15:55:44 schrieb Robert Munteanu:
I recently noticed that my Firefox instance runs Flash 18, which I knew was not possible. My latest zypper dup seems to have pulled in freshplayerplugin [1], which aims to get PPAPI (Pepper) Flash player working in Firefox.
Robert
freshplayerplugin was in the latest snapshot (20150712) listed as an added package. I have not updated yet - does it work for you? -- Stefan Kunze SUSE Dispatch Engineer ________________________________________________________________ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Jennifer Guild, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nürnberg
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Stefan Kunze
Am Dienstag, 14. Juli 2015, 15:55:44 schrieb Robert Munteanu:
I recently noticed that my
Firefox instance runs Flash 18, which I knew was not possible. My
latest zypper dup seems to have pulled in freshplayerplugin [1], which
aims to get PPAPI (Pepper) Flash player working in Firefox.
Robert
freshplayerplugin was in the latest snapshot (20150712) listed as an added package. I have not updated yet - does it work for you?
At least in Google Finance it does. Robert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi Dave, On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 04:51:36PM +0200, David Disseldorp wrote:
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
Any thoughts?
1. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/12/adobe_flash_zero_day_cve_2015_5122/
+1 I'm sure the openSUSE community will create the fitting documentation based on the input from this thread. Cheers, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team + SUSE Labs SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
David Disseldorp wrote:
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
Any thoughts?
Surely someone has already seen this, but I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread: https://twitter.com/markschmidty/status/620783674561327104 Exactly who Mark Schmidt is I don't know, but there seems to be some debate about the meaning of "All versions of Flash are blocked by default in Firefox as of now". -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.3°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
--
Jimmy
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 1:28 AM, Per Jessen
David Disseldorp wrote:
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
Any thoughts?
Surely someone has already seen this, but I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread:
https://twitter.com/markschmidty/status/620783674561327104
Exactly who Mark Schmidt is I don't know, but there seems to be some debate about the meaning of "All versions of Flash are blocked by default in Firefox as of now".
I believe that is temporary until current security vulnerability is addressed, but yea.
-- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.3°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Per Jessen schrieb:
David Disseldorp wrote:
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
Any thoughts?
Surely someone has already seen this, but I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread:
https://twitter.com/markschmidty/status/620783674561327104
Exactly who Mark Schmidt is I don't know, but there seems to be some debate about the meaning of "All versions of Flash are blocked by default in Firefox as of now".
It always was to be temporary until they issue a version that has fixes of the exploits, and then only the versions lower than that would be (click-to-play) blocked. There was some misunderstanding of that intention for sure. KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 08:28:27 AM Per Jessen wrote:
David Disseldorp wrote:
Considering the seemingly endless stream of CVEs[1], as well as the recent uptake of HTML5 video, I propose that flash-player be removed from the default package install list in future openSUSE releases.
Any thoughts?
Surely someone has already seen this, but I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread:
https://twitter.com/markschmidty/status/620783674561327104
Exactly who Mark Schmidt is I don't know, but there seems to be some debate about the meaning of "All versions of Flash are blocked by default in Firefox as of now".
As soon as we move from Adobe Flash Player 11.2.202.481 to version 11.2.202.491 Firefox unblock until new exploit find its way. I already checked this out on Firefox 39.0 with Adobe Flash Player 11.2.202.491. Regards, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (36)
-
Adam Tauno Williams -
Alexander Bergmann -
Bruno Friedmann -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
David Cooper -
David Disseldorp -
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger -
Felix Miata -
Graham P Davis -
Graham P Davis -
James Knott -
Jan Engelhardt -
Jimmy Berry -
Johannes Meixner -
Lars Müller -
Malcolm -
Martin Pluskal -
Martin Pluskal -
Martin Schlander -
Mathias Homann -
Olav Reinert -
Ondřej Súkup -
Per Jessen -
Richard Brown -
Rick Chung -
Robert Kaiser -
Robert Munteanu -
Roman Bysh -
Stanislav Brabec -
Stefan Kunze -
Tomáš Chvátal -
Werner Flamme -
Wolfgang Rosenauer -
Yamaban