On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:53:31AM +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Tirsdag den 14. juli 2015 16:02:13 skrev Martin Pluskal:
Why do you assume that beginners can not install package? Could you elaborate more on your definition of beginner?
They'll fail way before they even think "Oh, I need to install an additional package". They'll fire up their browser, go to play some exciting game about cats or farming on Facebook.com, or they'll find one of the millions of Youtube videos only available in Flash and they'll come to the conclusion that "openSUSE doesn't work". They might click on the "Install Adobe Flash" thing that is shown and get even more frustrated.
So what's the difference if we would keep flash-player in the default installation and the browser in use again decides by good reason to disable it due to yet another security issue? Nothing would be won even if it is installed. Since I removed flash-player on my systems I have less trouble with the news pages I use. And arguing with Facebook is good. Cause their security officer claimed "It is time for Adobe to announce the end-of-life date for Flash ..." https://twitter.com/alexstamos/status/620306643360706561
They won't think that they can install the needed plugin with the package manager. They'll think they already have a browser installed, and the browser isn't working.
Then we might have to find a way to let the browsers display a warning which includes a link to an article in the wiki.
Just like they think the media player is broken, when it doesn't have support for certain media formats out of the box.
There are tons of users - even among distro hoppers and others who go and install Linux by themselves, and who might have used Linux for quite a long time, who'll stumble over obstables as small as these. You even see professional developers and sysadmins who struggle with the simplest desktop related issues sometimes. Mostly because those sorts of things don't interest them one bit "the desktop just needs to work!".
And even users with basic knowledge about codecs and plugins and package managers, who actually have the potential to go and do a webssearch and install stuff with 5 minutes of work, will often say "screw it, on Linux Mint it all works out of the box, so that's what I'll go use."
I have also noticed that it is not first time that you "fight for rights of beginners" - I am actually kind of curious - why?
Because we care about the openSUSE project and growing FOSS and having diversity instead of monopolies in technology and those sorts of things.
A lot of the ideas being thrown around here as of late, are pure kamikaze for the project.
If you target only people who are informed and motivated and know what they're doing, it gets really lonely very fast. There aren't as many of such people as you guys seem to think.
You might think it'd be good to have a nice little closed elitist club, but in the long run the project needs a full food chain in order not to dry up.
Right. With the same argumentation it's possible to stress how important it is to kick flash-player out. We're not arguing with the goal to scare beginners away Cheers, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team + SUSE Labs SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany