[opensuse-factory] Plain text restriction [Was: Testing many small file write on several filesystems]
Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
14:42 ares07:~ > xfs_info . meta-data=/dev/md7 isize=256 agcount=32, agsize=22891675 blks = sectsz=512 attr=2 data = bsize=4096 blocks=732533583, imaxpct=5 = sunit=0 swidth=0 blks naming =version 2 bsize=4096 ascii-ci=0 log =internal bsize=4096 blocks=357682, version=2 = sectsz=512 sunit=0 blks, lazy-count=1 realtime =none extsz=4096 blocks=0, rtextents=0
Sorry for the following rant, I just can't stand to be silent anymore... This filesystem performance discussion is very interesting! Unfortunately, I can't read any of the reported statistics. Why are they unreadable? Because all of the emails are plain text, but rendered in Gmail in a non-fixed width font, so the columns don't line up. Why are all of the emails plain text? Because all openSUSE mailing lists require this. Why do all openSUSE mailing lists require plain text? HECK IF I KNOW!?! This is 2013. Is anyone out there still reading email using /usr/bin/mail? It sure would be nice if people could send HTML email, like the rest of the world (and every other open source project I'm involved in) has been doing for the past 15 years, so that, say, a fixed-width font could be specified for stuff that needs a fixed-width font. We could even require HTML emails to be "multipart/alternative" for those remaining 17 /usr/bin/mail users. What am I missing? -Archie -- Archie L. Cobbs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 15:40, Archie Cobbs <archie@...> wrote:
Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
14:42 ares07:~ > xfs_info . [snip] Sorry for the following rant, I just can't stand to be silent anymore...
This filesystem performance discussion is very interesting!
Unfortunately, I can't read any of the reported statistics.
Why are they unreadable? Because all of the emails are plain text, but rendered in Gmail in a non-fixed width font, so the columns don't line up.
Why are all of the emails plain text? Because all openSUSE mailing lists require this.
Why do all openSUSE mailing lists require plain text? HECK IF I KNOW!?!
This is 2013. Is anyone out there still reading email using /usr/bin/mail?
It sure would be nice if people could send HTML email, like the rest of the world (and every other open source project I'm involved in) has been doing for the past 15 years, so that, say, a fixed-width font could be specified for stuff that needs a fixed-width font.
We could even require HTML emails to be "multipart/alternative" for those remaining 17 /usr/bin/mail users.
What am I missing?
A regular mail-program. A browser is NO replacement for a full mail-program, no matter what your web mail provider insists on. Or, get your ass in gear and bleat against google, to get them to render text/plain mail in monospaced fonts. Maybe you should check your browser settings, and make sure that you use a monospaced font for the fixed-width / monospaced setting. E.g. choosing "Arial" as "monospaced" font is shit on your side. I'm against wasted space. To much hidden shit in those html mails. E.g 65 lines of css-style for a one line reply. Most of that bogus waste is produced by web-mail providers. Thank you for wanting to waste additional bandwidth. - Yamaban. -- Using the internet since 28.8kbit. Yes, I'm 'old'. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Yamaban wrote:
Using the internet since 28.8kbit. Yes, I'm 'old'.
My first modem was 300 bits/sec, you young whipper snapper! ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/28/2013 8:10 AM, James Knott wrote:
Yamaban wrote:
Using the internet since 28.8kbit. Yes, I'm 'old'.
My first modem was 300 bits/sec, you young whipper snapper! ;-)
But was it acoustic, where you had to put the phone in the rubber cups? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Linda Walsh wrote:
Yamaban wrote:
Using the internet since 28.8kbit. Yes, I'm 'old'.
My first modem was 300 bits/sec, you young whipper snapper! ;-)
But was it acoustic, where you had to put the phone in the rubber cups?
No, it was direct connect, but I had to manually switch it in. I'd dial the phone, listen for the carrier and then switch the modem to originate mode and hang up the phone. I used it to connect to the old BBS systems, but I was originally able to get it because my wife wanted to be able to play "Adventure" a the VAX 11/780 at my work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Yamaban wrote:
Using the internet since 28.8kbit. Yes, I'm 'old'.
I think my first US Robotics was 14.4K, but before that I had the usual 1200 and 2400baud modems. Then I went ISDN and got 64K. That was about twenty years ago. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/28/2013 09:40 AM, Archie Cobbs wrote:
Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
14:42 ares07:~ > xfs_info . meta-data=/dev/md7 isize=256 agcount=32, agsize=22891675 blks = sectsz=512 attr=2 data = bsize=4096 blocks=732533583, imaxpct=5 = sunit=0 swidth=0 blks naming =version 2 bsize=4096 ascii-ci=0 log =internal bsize=4096 blocks=357682, version=2 = sectsz=512 sunit=0 blks, lazy-count=1 realtime =none extsz=4096 blocks=0, rtextents=0
Sorry for the following rant, I just can't stand to be silent anymore...
This filesystem performance discussion is very interesting!
Unfortunately, I can't read any of the reported statistics.
Why are they unreadable? Because all of the emails are plain text, but rendered in Gmail in a non-fixed width font, so the columns don't line up.
Why are all of the emails plain text? Because all openSUSE mailing lists require this.
Why do all openSUSE mailing lists require plain text? HECK IF I KNOW!?!
This is 2013. Is anyone out there still reading email using /usr/bin/mail?
It sure would be nice if people could send HTML email, like the rest of the world (and every other open source project I'm involved in) has been doing for the past 15 years, so that, say, a fixed-width font could be specified for stuff that needs a fixed-width font.
We could even require HTML emails to be "multipart/alternative" for those remaining 17 /usr/bin/mail users.
What am I missing?
Sending non-HTML Email is extremely good practice. Why should *every* piece of mail be bloated in size by a factor of 3 or 4 so that it "looks pretty" on your screen when it is perfectly OK on mine in Thunderbird. One other thing is that if you ever need to use any of the major Linux mailing lists at vger.kernel.org, your HTML-containing effort will get rejected immediately. Those list expressly forbid all the extra garbage. I use Gmail as a front end to my mailer, but it requires an extremely special set of circumstances for me to either read the mail, or to compose any mail at gmail.com. Firefox makes a lousy mail reader. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 9:55 AM, Larry Finger <Larry.Finger@lwfinger.net> wrote:
Sending non-HTML Email is extremely good practice. Why should *every* piece of mail be bloated in size by a factor of 3 or 4 so that it "looks pretty" on your screen when it is perfectly OK on mine in Thunderbird.
Did I say *every* piece of email? No. Plain text is fine for most of the email on this list. My point is that it would be nice if people had the option to use a little formatting to help get their point across (which is why formatting exists). Anyway, yes the increase in size is a valid counter-argument (the only one I know of), but is your inbox really causing you to run out of disk space? If so then how can you possibly be reading it? This just seems like a very weak counter-argument. I mean, everyone out there must get lots of HTML formatted email from other sources. It's perfectly readable. What's the real problem? Just seems mostly like all arguments against add up to nothing more than historical inertia. Anyway, I think I understand where the anti-HTML sentiment comes from. It comes from 1995 when a bunch of AOL people started sending email for the first time and made a mess of the tidy little world all of use computer types had constructed. We were all still using /usr/bin/mail and trying to parse HTML directly with your eyes made your head hurt (yes, I was there). But the world has evolved. We have new tools... we should be able to use them.
One other thing is that if you ever need to use any of the major Linux mailing lists at vger.kernel.org, your HTML-containing effort will get rejected immediately. Those list expressly forbid all the extra garbage.
You are correct, they don't like HTML either. So what? Linus is a benevolent dictator. If I was dictator I'd make the opposite choice. -Archie -- Archie L. Cobbs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Archie Cobbs wrote:
Plain text is fine for most of the email on this list. My point is that it would be nice if people had the option to use a little formatting to help get their point across (which is why formatting exists).
The problem is, as is often the case, there will always be those who abuse that option to send a lot of unnecessary and often irritating junk. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-10-28 at 11:27 -0400, James Knott wrote:
Archie Cobbs wrote:
Plain text is fine for most of the email on this list. My point is that it would be nice if people had the option to use a little formatting to help get their point across (which is why formatting exists).
The problem is, as is often the case, there will always be those who abuse that option to send a lot of unnecessary and often irritating junk.
Yep. I agree that sometimes it would be interesting to have some formatting capabilities (italics, bold, tables perhaps...), but it can be abused. The size argument is moot, though: the list no longer filters attachements. Dunno why. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlJuinEACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U49QCgkExhAIFIQns+VmJ3b5rW/2Kq r/EAn3EguZPJgpAaksunpY3V3HidiUkj =Q6HC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Monday, 2013-10-28 at 11:27 -0400, James Knott wrote:
Archie Cobbs wrote:
Plain text is fine for most of the email on this list. My point is that it would be nice if people had the option to use a little formatting to help get their point across (which is why formatting exists).
The problem is, as is often the case, there will always be those who abuse that option to send a lot of unnecessary and often irritating junk.
Yep. I agree that sometimes it would be interesting to have some formatting capabilities (italics, bold, tables perhaps...), but it can be abused.
Given the right reader, we have /italics/ and *bold* and _underlined_. In e.g. knode smileys too are displayed as graphics. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (15.6°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-10-28 at 21:21 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
Yep. I agree that sometimes it would be interesting to have some formatting capabilities (italics, bold, tables perhaps...), but it can be abused.
Given the right reader, we have /italics/ and *bold* and _underlined_. In e.g. knode smileys too are displayed as graphics.
I know, but it is not standard. Pine doesn't render those, for instance. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlJuy+wACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UAHACePLAr6vnlYxo6sORyhdKbQC3v VSwAoIJm+4KaNbMuGTqKaZ2iBR/AoFP1 =ZyTD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 2013-10-28 21:41, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Given the right reader, we have /italics/ and *bold* and _underlined_. In e.g. knode smileys too are displayed as graphics.
I know, but it is not standard. Pine doesn't render those, for instance.
You do not need that with pine, because pine can render basic HTML, which so much superior, I hear ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-10-28 at 21:45 +0100, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
On Monday 2013-10-28 21:41, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I know, but it is not standard. Pine doesn't render those, for instance.
You do not need that with pine, because pine can render basic HTML, which so much superior, I hear ;)
Ho, ho, ho. I laugh a lot. :-)) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlJu0CUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V8RACgkaQMlg95bUqdmjdLfGk/jsY7 48UAn3huEfrlF2xuHPknGTuznEFsutsQ =NgDK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 21:45:05 +0100 (CET) Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
On Monday 2013-10-28 21:41, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Given the right reader, we have /italics/ and *bold* and _underlined_. In e.g. knode smileys too are displayed as graphics.
I know, but it is not standard. Pine doesn't render those, for instance.
You do not need that with pine, because pine can render basic HTML, which so much superior, I hear ;)
Superior to what? Yes, HTML is superior at transporting viruses and malware onto your computer or causing other inappropriate actions to occur. That's aside from the 400-500% bloat factor which makes downloading it very SLOW if you're in an area that doesn't have/can't afford broadband not to mention the excess storage space requirements. Consider a typical mail list which might receive in excess of 500-1000 messages per day, many of which will need to be moderated or outright rejected due to size. And if you're the one having to pay to download those bloated files due to ISP bandwidth restrictions can you afford it?? Thanks, Tom -- Every man is encompassed by a cloud of comforting convictions, which move with him like flies on a summer day. - Bertrand Russell ^^ --... ...-- / -.- --. --... -.-. ..-. -.-. ^^^^ Tom Taylor - retired penguin - KG7CFC AMD Phenom II x4 955 -- 4GB RAM -- 2x1.5TB sata2 openSUSE 13.1_RC1-x86_64 KDE 4.11.12, FF 24.0, claws-mail 3.9.2 registered linux user 263467 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2013-10-29 at 00:16 -0000, Thomas Taylor wrote:
You do not need that with pine, because pine can render basic HTML, which so much superior, I hear ;)
Superior to what? Yes, HTML is superior at transporting viruses and malware
You did not catch the irony, did you? :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlJvARUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VBOgCaAwTU2VKcFPGH9GERI5s6KwIU rrUAniNWuWyj3d3xiGxSuz2wXs9uH+3E =Wrvg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/28/2013 5:16 PM, Thomas Taylor wrote: Yes, HTML is superior at transporting viruses and malware
onto your computer or causing other inappropriate actions to occur.
That's just crap. HTML transports viruses as much as txt does. Scripting is a different matter. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/28/2013 11:03 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:
On 10/28/2013 5:16 PM, Thomas Taylor wrote: Yes, HTML is superior at transporting viruses and malware
onto your computer or causing other inappropriate actions to occur.
That's just crap.
HTML transports viruses as much as txt does.
Ok so like I said about Linda being right and reasonable most of the time... gotta have a few exceptions to prove the rule I guess? How anyone who knows what html is can deny that *rendering* html doesn't introduce new and vastly more powerful channels to cause your client to silently do stuff than plain text is beyond me. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/5/2013 2:42 PM, Brian K. White wrote:
On 10/28/2013 11:03 PM, Linda Walsh wrote:
On 10/28/2013 5:16 PM, Thomas Taylor wrote: Yes, HTML is superior at transporting viruses and malware
onto your computer or causing other inappropriate actions to occur.
That's just crap.
HTML transports viruses as much as txt does.
Ok so like I said about Linda being right and reasonable most of the time... gotta have a few exceptions to prove the rule I guess?
How anyone who knows what html is can deny that *rendering* html doesn't introduce new and vastly more powerful channels to cause your client to silently do stuff than plain text is beyond me.
You message had "*rendering*" in bold text -- did you write in HTML? No -- I assert that HTML is markup on text -- it isn't scripting -- but it does the same thing that some reader do automatically. Note, that fact that your reader is displaying binary data as "text" is already an interpretive layer. You can claim, that interpreting a binary stream as text is vastly different than interpreting it as emphasized, italicized, or paragraph-formatted or proportional text, but it's a matter of degree. If you aren't seeing, *only* electrical "on/off" states, you are seeing some level of interpretation -- even "slashdot" allows HTML (or a subset thereof) for markup. I don't recall any instance where a site has been hacked due to a bug in an HTML renderer. If you have an example to the contrary, I'd find it very interesting, but if not, I'd say it's the same probability as worrying about virus's embedded in the headers of your email (which email readers don't show you, but are definitely used by various interpreters) or in the parity bits of your text (which most email readers ignore unless they are trying to interpret it for some purpose (like alternate charsets -- a type of markup!)... I have seen bugs in jpg display, and audio display, but those are very rare and I really wouldn't regard them as serious threat vectors these days. Technically HTML is marginally more complex to interpret than text, but I would still ask for a proof of concept -- I don't recall it ever being seriously considered a threat vector. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 11:09 PM, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
No -- I assert that HTML is markup on text -- it isn't scripting -- but it does the same thing that some reader do automatically.
That's oh-so-naive -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/5/2013 7:44 PM, Claudio Freire wrote:
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 11:09 PM, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
No -- I assert that HTML is markup on text -- it isn't scripting -- but it does the same thing that some reader do automatically.
That's oh-so-naive
---- Could you elaborate. I'm talking HTML with no includes and no scripts… i.e. the complete source in the text. I'll ask you the same — can you give any record of an exploit in such? Or are you talking theory? Note that anyone looking at this text is looking at it through an interpreter (unless they are looking at it on an old fashion serial terminal (𝑑𝑜 𝑡𝘩𝑒𝑦 𝑠𝑡𝑖𝑙𝑙 𝑒𝑥𝑖𝑠𝑡❔) with a character generator in hardware. But most people use a GUI interpreter, even if they "ssh" into their machine, the window they use is still a local GUI. If you can't admit that what you call plain text is an interpretive display, then I'll take your naïve and raise it 1¹. ¹ – BTW, if some chars ✱didn't✱ look strange, you have some that new UTF-8 interpretation going on in your “plain-text” reader. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:13 AM, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
On 11/5/2013 7:44 PM, Claudio Freire wrote:
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 11:09 PM, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
No -- I assert that HTML is markup on text -- it isn't scripting -- but it does the same thing that some reader do automatically.
That's oh-so-naive
---- Could you elaborate. I'm talking HTML with no includes and no scripts… i.e. the complete source in the text.
https://www.google.com.ar/search?q=buffer+overflow+in+html+parser&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&gws_rd=cr&ei=Ntd5UqCJO5C_sQSFoIHgDw Google search, first try, first query that popped into my head. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/5/2013 9:45 PM, Claudio Freire wrote:
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:13 AM, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
On 11/5/2013 7:44 PM, Claudio Freire wrote:
On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 11:09 PM, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
No -- I assert that HTML is markup on text -- it isn't scripting -- but it does the same thing that some reader do automatically.
That's oh-so-naive
---- Could you elaborate. I'm talking HTML with no includes and no scripts� i.e. the complete source in the text.
Google search, first try, first query that popped into my head.
----------- You should have looked a bit deeper... Nothing about an exploit, but you can find a similar list @: https://www.google.com/search?q=buffer+overflow+in+text+parser Or https://www.google.com/search?q=buffer+overflow+in+text+email Including buffer overflows in mutt -- a plaintext reader. or this is a goodie: CERT/CC Blog: *****Plain Text Email in Outlook Express************* www.cert.org/blogs/certcc/.../plain_text_email_in_outlook_ex.html - Cached - Similar Nov 13, 2009 ... Reading email messages in plain text seems like a reasonable thing to ... cursor stack buffer overflow vulnerability (VU#191609), I noticed that ... So far you helping me show more bugs in plain text emails that I would have guessed... fascinating...so maybe text emails are more of a security risk than HTML, due to people's implicit belief that plaintext emails can't contain such problems so there is less checking? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:16 AM, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
So far you helping me show more bugs in plain text emails that I would have guessed... fascinating...so maybe text emails are more of a security risk than HTML, due to people's implicit belief that plaintext emails can't contain such problems so there is less checking?
Morale is, any input to any program can contain viruses. Some venues are more likely/more exploited than others, and HTML has been exploited way too much for you to claim it hasn't and still appear knowledgeable. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/6/2013 5:50 AM, Claudio Freire wrote:
On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:16 AM, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:
So far you helping me show more bugs in plain text emails that I would have guessed... fascinating...so maybe text emails are more of a security risk than HTML, due to people's implicit belief that plaintext emails can't contain such problems so there is less checking?
Morale is, any input to any program can contain viruses. Some venues are more likely/more exploited than others, and HTML has been exploited way too much for you to claim it hasn't and still appear knowledgeable.
Stop putting words in my mouth. My original statement was " HTML transports viruses as much as txt does. Scripting is a different matter. " So far all you have managed to prove is that plain-text mail readers as many or more buffer overflows (that may or may not be exploitable) than your average average HTML-only renderer built into built into mail programs like Tbird. (HTML-only renderer = no scripts, no fonts, no objects, etc). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
What does any of the last 30+ messages have to do with filesystems? What does HTML in email have anything to do with openSUSE factory? Stay on topic or take it off-list, please. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2013-11-07 at 09:10 -0600, Jon Nelson wrote:
What does any of the last 30+ messages have to do with filesystems?
What does HTML in email have anything to do with openSUSE factory?
Stay on topic or take it off-list, please.
I agree. At least change the subject line, so that we can filter it out. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlJ79IgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UQDACfX6wwGrPy7/nrzaN0u5B1IP5p GCkAoI3dAIztRmIFwsEgTBWoN5XUxE3B =0Xiv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Dienstag, 5. November 2013 schrieb Linda Walsh:
You message had "*rendering*" in bold text -- did you write in HTML?
No -- I assert that HTML is markup on text -- it isn't scripting --
HTML is more than markup - and it can contain scripting. The problem isn't the markup part (bold/italic/underline etc.), but all the other things (like javascript and tracking pixels) that can be embedded in HTML. I'm fine with rendering text in mails *bold* or _underlined_, but I don't want colored text, javascript or tracking pixels in my mails.
Note, that fact that your reader is displaying binary data as "text" is already an interpretive layer. You can claim, that interpreting a binary stream as text is vastly different than interpreting it as emphasized, italicized, or paragraph-formatted or proportional text, but it's a matter of degree. If you aren't seeing, *only* electrical "on/off" states, you are seeing some level of interpretation
01110111 01110010 01101111 01101110 01100111 *SCNR*
I don't recall any instance where a site has been hacked due to a bug in an HTML renderer.
I strongly disagree - XSS is basically a bug in the renderer (because it doesn't remove or escape <script> or <div onmouseover=...> tags), and you can read about XSS attacks quite often.
Technically HTML is marginally more complex to interpret than text, but I would still ask for a proof of concept -- I don't recall it ever being seriously considered a threat vector.
A simple example: a HTML mail could hide/optically replace the message header part (showing Subject/From/To/Date) in KMail with a positioned <div> and display whatever it wants there. With the same method, it could probably also simulate the green "This mail has a valid GPG signature from" box, which could then trick you to click on links (because you trust the (displayed) sender/signature), and the link targets could do phishing etc. That's one of the reasons why I don't like HTML mails - there's an additional risk level without any benefit. The other reason is more practical - I want mails displayed in the font _I_ like - not in a random font and (mis)design that the sender might like, but is harder to read. Regards, Christian Boltz --
Wow consensus in less than 24 hours....imagine if it always worked that way....:-) Something smells fishy here ;-) Do you have the solution(tm) for the "Kanzlerfrage"? :) [>> Peter Flodin, > Andreas Jäger und Christoph Thiel in opensuse]
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On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Christian Boltz <opensuse@cboltz.de> wrote:
That's one of the reasons why I don't like HTML mails - there's an additional risk level without any benefit.
The other reason is more practical - I want mails displayed in the font _I_ like - not in a random font and (mis)design that the sender might like, but is harder to read.
And the third is technical. HTML mails must contain a plaintext version, attachment parts for embedded font/images, etc. In general, they include an unholy amount of bloat, only perpetuated by tools like incredimail that make it compulsive and that are so very common. That's probably the main reason mailing lists disallow html mails most of the time. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 11/6/2013 8:17 AM, Christian Boltz wrote:
Hello,
Am Dienstag, 5. November 2013 schrieb Linda Walsh:
You message had "*rendering*" in bold text -- did you write in HTML?
No -- I assert that HTML is markup on text -- it isn't scripting --
HTML is more than markup - and it can contain scripting.
Not HTML. When you include scripting, you are switching to a different language. Javascript != HTML.
The problem isn't the markup part (bold/italic/underline etc.), but all the other things (like javascript and tracking pixels) that can be embedded in HTML.
My mail reader, ***by default*** doesn't display inline images unless I specifically ask it to or put the sender in my address book. It's part of its core functionality (an 3yr, 7mo old, Version of Tbird). I don't think there is a way for me to enable script execution in email. It doesn't support cookies.
I'm fine with rendering text in mails *bold* or _underlined_, but I don't want colored text, javascript or tracking pixels in my mails.
If you have put the email in your address book, it can display images. If you haven't, images are blocked by default. **EVEN** if send you HTML, you can choose, on your end to display in "original HTML"(still limited), "simple HTML" that preserves markup, or plaintext (where it extracts the text and displays that).
I strongly disagree - XSS is basically a bug in the renderer (because it doesn't remove or escape <script> or <div onmouseover=...> tags), and you can read about XSS attacks quite often.----
XSS isn't HTML. It's XSS that requires scripting.
Technically HTML is marginally more complex to interpret than text, but I would still ask for a proof of concept -- I don't recall it ever being seriously considered a threat vector.
A simple example: a HTML mail could hide/optically replace the message header part (showing Subject/From/To/Date) in KMail with a positioned <div> and display whatever it wants there. With the same method, it could probably also simulate the green "This mail has a valid GPG signature from" box, which could then trick you to click on links (because you trust the (displayed) sender/signature), and the link targets could do phishing etc.----
You can't place text outside of the HTML display window using HTML-only. At the very least, you'd need javascript and access to the DOM model. None of those are your basic markup HTML. Have you read slashdot.net? The HTML they have in "light-mode (for display), is
That's one of the reasons why I don't like HTML mails - there's an additional risk level without any benefit.
You are talking about a bad reader. It sounds like Kmail (which I always found to be buggy & slow), also has low security features. From wikipedia, threat vectors in HTML: 1) HTML allows for a link to have a different target than the link's text. This can be used in phishing attacks. Tbird default: you read the actual link in the status bar -- can't be spoofed w/o scripting (default=disabled w/prejudice) 2) If an email contains web bugs (inline content from an external server, such as a picture), the server can alert a third party that the email has been opened. This is a potential privacy risk. Response: some email clients do not load external images until requested to by the user (you get a good email client that was designed with privacy & security in mind (Tbird being 1 example). That's it. It CAN be used as a spam vector, but that's not a security risk and most people & lists have filters that do a good job of filtering that out. They don't contain scripts -- kmail is an aberration. As I mentioned in early responses if you don't like HTML, you can convert it to plaintext. Check out lynx sometime -- all plaintext, all the time (it's a text browser). This works for the USDoD who, during periods of increased network threats, convert all incoming HTML email to text email.
The other reason is more practical - I want mails displayed in the font _I_ like - not in a random font and (mis)design that the sender might like, but is harder to read.
You can choose that, more easily and flexibly in html than in plain text, since you can: 1) disable using any fonts or COLORS other than what you specify. or 2) insert your own style sheet at the top to display it anyway you want and put in css rules to prohibit changing font size/color...etc.
Regards, Christian Boltz
And, BTW, FWIW, I usually send BOTH a copy of the HTML email AND a plain-text copy for those who don't want to convert, but that's just me, and not a builtin feature. Translators like the DOD use are trivial to write -- especially if you are willing to use some script to do the filtering. Something like perl can walk an HTML syntax tree, and only emit HTML items you want -- like content or simple markup -- but some readers have that built-in Cheers, Linda -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-10-28 at 10:20 -0500, Archie Cobbs wrote:
Did I say *every* piece of email? No.
Plain text is fine for most of the email on this list. My point is that it would be nice if people had the option to use a little formatting to help get their point across (which is why formatting exists).
You are wasting your time. Any suggestion or request in that direction will be silently discarded or ignored by the list management. No way will html be addmited on the opensuse.org mail lists. This discussion has been had many times (search the archives), and it is totally useless. No matter what your points are, they are worhtless. >:-) If you have problems reading plain text email on your "reader", change reader. That's the only solution for you. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlJug7EACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WyqQCfQCbDLtAyy2LSs6ky/1t0vaLo Z7EAnRcGImUFsS3mhQrhNujR7U1okmDd =xxd4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 10:33 AM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
You are wasting your time. Any suggestion or request in that direction will be silently discarded or ignored by the list management. No way will html be addmited on the opensuse.org mail lists. This discussion has been had many times (search the archives), and it is totally useless. No matter what your points are, they are worhtless. >:-)
Hmm.. I wonder why this discussion has been had so many times... :) I think you guys are overly paranoid of some kind of HTML-pocalypse which will never occur. And the free-flow of information on this list, and our ability to attract other (younger?) people who might want to join us, suffers as a result. But whatever... I accept defeat and didn't expect otherwise. End of rant. -Archie -- Archie L. Cobbs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 28 October 2013 10.44:45 Archie Cobbs wrote:
and our ability to attract other (younger?) people who might want to join us, suffers as a result.
I was younger in 1998 and was finding html mail cute. No I can't say enough thanks you to all the people who educate me about the beauty of ascii are (well even if nobody of us would like to discard utf-8). Text is lighter, faster, can't harm. if you want to express something in html, great, just provide us a link to a webpage :-) -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
If you have problems reading plain text email on your "reader", change reader. That's the only solution for you.
------------ Conversely if you have problems reading HTML email on your reader, then change your reader. That's the only solution for you. Can you say narrow minded wearing blinders? I prefer the option to send in either, Anyone who can't handle either has a problem. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
* Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> [10-28-13 23:06]:
On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
If you have problems reading plain text email on your "reader", change reader. That's the only solution for you.
------------
Conversely if you have problems reading HTML email on your reader, then change your reader. That's the only solution for you.
Can you say narrow minded wearing blinders?
I prefer the option to send in either,
Anyone who can't handle either has a problem.
Agreed. But it remains a matter of consideration and politeness. HTML is not wanted nor welcome here and by many people not necessarily here. I can handle html mail and reject it w/o a problem or every even looking at it. But then, *you* do not have to be polite, do you? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/28/2013 8:25 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> [10-28-13 23:06]:
On 10/28/2013 8:33 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
If you have problems reading plain text email on your "reader", change reader. That's the only solution for you.
Conversely if you have problems reading HTML email on your reader, then change your reader. That's the only solution for you.
Can you say narrow minded wearing blinders?
I prefer the option to send in either,
Anyone who can't handle either has a problem.
Agreed. But it remains a matter of consideration and politeness. HTML is not wanted nor welcome here and by many people not necessarily here. I can handle html mail and reject it w/o a problem or every even looking at it.
But then, *you* do not have to be polite, do you?
No more than anyone else is to me. I *like* well formatted emails if it helps me read or get the message. It has been *WELL* documented that reading fixed-type text slows down reading rate, and hinders comprehension. So the people who don't adapt to HTML and proportional fonts with CSS driven margins are the EXTREMELY RUDE, and INCONSIDERATE people who slow down and hurt all of society by their selfishness -- because everyone loses by having their time wasted reading fixed type text. If you don't believe me, go google read rates and comprehension and font-usage -- especially w/rt fixed vs. proportional fonts. The fact that such a selfish and collectively hindering body of people would even think to call someone, who knows enough to how much a 10% loss in reading rate would affect one over 100's of hours/year spent reading mind numbing fixed fonts, "impolite", is .. ludicrous. And you are wrong about HTML not being wanted nor welcome here. It is wanted and would be welcomed here by some loud, established people. The most common use of fixed type font outside of the computer industry is to educate those who don't know how to read -- where reading speed or comprehension isn't an issue. I fought the same issues over the past 10 years using unicode as well. It's been mostly english speaking americans that have fought the hardest against that as well. One nice thing about HTML -- I don't have to worry about my line length. I can just keep typing and typing, and it will all line up properly. If I want something to look "just right" in email, I need to make sure my email window width is set exactly right for 80 columns and even then I need to be careful to remember to hit CR. Either that or run it through gvim and format it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, On Mon, Oct 28, Linda Walsh wrote:
Conversely if you have problems reading HTML email on your reader, then change your reader. That's the only solution for you.
No! Hubert Mantel -- 1. e4!! (M27) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/29/2013 3:24 AM, Hubert Mantel wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, Oct 28, Linda Walsh wrote:
Conversely if you have problems reading HTML email on your reader, then change your reader. That's the only solution for you.
No!
No what? I stated the converse of the previous position. Are you saying the previous position was incorrect? I tend to think it's a bit, um, provincial and possibly selfish to dictate such things to other people, but, hey, that's just me. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2013-10-28 11:20 (GMT-0400) Archie Cobbs composed:
Plain text is fine for most of the email on this list. My point is
Email at its inception was no more than plain text. Formatted email was not (didn't exist, same as GUI interfaces). Today's formatted email is marked up text (HTML or a variation thereof) that the original email readers cannot display comprehensibly, so doesn't constitute real email, even though for well over a decade most messages conveyed via the email system have been formatted, and the markup/formatting is provided for in updated specs in the form of a "multipart" specification. HTML email amounts to web pages conveyed via the email system, providing the means for spammers to do their dirty deeds that are impossible via pure plain text, and in most cases whether spam or not, loading system via unnecessary bloat. A more serious problem for mailing lists is in the archival process and hosting, where normally bloat must of necessity be removed for the archive to be usable.
that it would be nice if people had the option to use a little formatting to help get their point across (which is why formatting exists).
The few spoil it for the many. The option to use a little in reality serves as license to use more than a little, and to abuse. If your list message *really* needs special formatting, create a URL for it, and point to it in an email as a link, so that it can be viewed in the web browsers that were designed for competent viewing of formatted documents.
Anyway, yes the increase in size is a valid counter-argument (the only one I know of), but is your inbox really causing you to run out of disk space? If so then how can you possibly be reading it? This just seems like a very weak counter-argument.
It isn't the disk space itself. It's the RAM consumption increase that accompanies the larger disk consumption, making an email app less responsive, and possibly causing otherwise unneeded RAM swapping, making everything less responsive.
I mean, everyone out there must get lots of HTML formatted email from other sources. It's perfectly readable. What's the real problem? Just
It's rarely "perfectly" readable. Most HTML comes formatted dictating sender's (M$ default mousetype usually), which means it does not display using the font I specified in my email app for optimal reading of email (usually at less than half of optimal size). That doesn't actually bother me, as my email app offers a setting to disregard the formatting, which I have turned on 99.7% of the time, and shows me optimal size text (that I can actually read without some kind of magnification).
seems mostly like all arguments against add up to nothing more than historical inertia.
But the world has evolved. We have new tools... we should be able to use them.
That new tools exist is not justification to destroy utility of old tools people like using that do still work. Not everyone welcomes the learning curve that typically accompanies new tools. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/28/2013 10:59 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2013-10-28 11:20 (GMT-0400) Archie Cobbs composed:
Plain text is fine for most of the email on this list. My point is
Email at its inception was no more than plain text.
And displays were limited to ascii text -- they couldn't do graphics. There was a reason for such a limitation. On top of that, there was no internet. Things were done in batches over telephone lines w/uucp. Neither of those restrictions exist today.
Formatted email was not (didn't exist, same as GUI interfaces). Today's formatted email is marked up text (HTML or a variation thereof) that the original email readers cannot display comprehensibly.
The original email readers talked through serial lines and displayed with 24x80 ascii console. Is that what you use today? If not, you are not using the original email interface. I doubt that anyone here is not regularly email over some sort of GUI. There is little excuse for not adapting to such. ==== Isn't suse moving to systemd? There is very little ascii text about that, so I can't see why people on this list would support systemd but not more complex email structures.
so doesn't constitute real email, even though for well over a decade most messages conveyed via the email system have been formatted, and the markup/formatting is provided for in updated specs in the form of a "multipart" specification.
You mean like most email messages of text are created from multipart network packets that come from ip packets that may even be out of order? That come from toggling of bits? Text is synthetic as well.
HTML email amounts to web pages conveyed via the email system, providing the means for spammers to do their dirty deeds that are impossible via pure plain text
---- You obviously never lived through the days of large ascii art sigs..
The few spoil it for the many. The option to use a little in reality serves as license to use more than a little, and to abuse. If your list message *really* needs special formatting.
Um if you really need letter formatting and not a bit-stream, then create a BBS and post an address to it? Is that what you are saying?
I mean, everyone out there must get lots of HTML formatted email from other sources. It's perfectly readable. What's the real problem? Just
It's rarely "perfectly" readable. Most HTML comes formatted dictating sender's (M$ default mousetype usually), which means it does not display using the font I specified in my email app for optimal reading of email (usually at less than half of optimal size).
I rarely have problems reading any HTML email I want... but then I've set up my system to deal with such. People dump on me for having a custom system that can do things like read HTML email, but then whine real loud if someone sends them anything their non-customizable system can't handle. Pah!
seems mostly like all arguments against add up to nothing more than historical inertia.
But the world has evolved. We have new tools... we should be able to use them.
Yep... Agreed.
That new tools exist is not justification to destroy utility of old tools people like using that do still work. Not everyone welcomes the learning curve that typically accompanies new tools.
Get an HTML->text translator. Have your html filtered. They've existed for years. Google uses them to render HTML email into plain text in their groups depending on the groups' settings. We have a list that is shoving systemd down user's throats and you want to talk about not having to change?... HTML has been around for how long now? VS. Systemd? If systemd had been around as long as HTML, rather than in alpha/beta most of suse's transistion period, it wouldn't have been a problem... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2013-10-28 20:23 (GMT-0700) Linda Walsh composed:
You obviously never lived through the days of large ascii art sigs..
I suppose it doesn't count that ascii art wall banners I created in the early 1970s from punch card input were printed on 11X15 green bar fan fold paper on a chain printer instead of a dumb terminal that wouldn't do sideways text. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2013-10-28 20:23 (GMT-0700) Linda Walsh composed:
You obviously never lived through the days of large ascii art sigs..
I suppose it doesn't count that ascii art wall banners I created in the early 1970s from punch card input were printed on 11X15 green bar fan fold paper on a chain printer instead of a dumb terminal that wouldn't do sideways text. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 2013-10-29 04:23, Linda Walsh wrote:
On 10/28/2013 10:59 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2013-10-28 11:20 (GMT-0400) Archie Cobbs composed:
Plain text is fine for most of the email on this list. My point is
Email at its inception was no more than plain text.
And displays were limited to ascii text -- they couldn't do graphics.
The IBM PC could, for a limited amount (also known under: boxdrawing characters).
Isn't suse moving to systemd? There is very little ascii text about that,
Yes, it's completely irrelevant, because systemd does not read mail (yet). Other than that, there is about 680 KB worth of manpage prose. In ASCII. Your argument - which is actually more like a continuous rambling - fails. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/28/2013 9:14 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
Isn't suse moving to systemd? There is very little ascii text about that,
Other than that, there is about 680 KB worth of manpage prose. In ASCII. Your argument - which is actually more like a continuous rambling - fails.
The fact that the config files are no longer in a readable text, and need 680KB of man pages to explain them is part of the problem. I don't need that for shell scripts.... i.e. you just made my point. :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 2013-10-29 08:32, Linda Walsh wrote:
On 10/28/2013 9:14 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
Isn't suse moving to systemd? There is very little ascii text about that,
Other than that, there is about 680 KB worth of manpage prose. In ASCII. Your argument - which is actually more like a continuous rambling - fails.
The fact that the config files are no longer in a readable text, and need 680KB of man pages to explain them is part of the problem.
I don't need that for shell scripts.... i.e. you just made my point. :-)
You are just babbling nonsense as usual. The real sad part about it is, you do not even recognize it. But hey, systemd haters gonna hate. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/29/2013 5:53 AM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
The fact that the config files are no longer in a readable text, and need 680KB of man pages to explain them is part of the problem.
I don't need that for shell scripts.... i.e. you just made my point. :-)
You are just babbling nonsense as usual. The real sad part about it is, you do not even recognize it. But hey, systemd haters gonna hate.
What part of .6MB of needed documentation to begin to understand systemd don't you understand? I need no special documentation for the scripts that brought up the system in SysVinit. systemd uses it's only special syntax and language that needs well over a half a meg of specialized documentation that still doesn't make it's configuration easy or scriptable. That you think I hate systemd is your projection. Unlike you, I dislike having large alien bodies shoved down my throat. I'd have been ecstatic if it had been offered as a choice and likely would have dumped as many processes on it as possible. But needing specialized log formats that are in binary -- just like MS's logs shows me it's designed for keeping people from casually examining it and taking control away from end users. It's difficult to keep up on and examine the MS logs because their log format is binary and you have to write special tools to decode it. You can't use off-the-shelf text processing utils that have been available on *nix for 40+ years. Then you start bundling in device and power control into your service manager as well as it handling the logging -- and you are talking *monolithic*. That's poor design in the unix world where doing 1-2 things well and have them be inter-operable with other tools so you can have any format you want -- but ... inter-operable? What unix utils is systemd interoperable with? What pre-existing tools can we re-use to manage it, interpret the log files, etc. Then is the plain *bad practice*... in the unix world -- of using absolute, hard-coded paths. It can't use "PATH", or look where libraries are -- so all the binaries have to be moved to /usr/bin -- thus forcing /usr to be mounted before systemd ever starts. Again -- another weakness that suse works around by forcing initrd's on everyone... All this added complexity for dubious gain but mostly with complete incompatibility and lack of support for legacy usage. Yet these same people whine to high heaven about how a standard that's been around for near 20+ years, is "too new-fangled to be forced on users reading text"... The hypocrisy is ridiculous. You're just trying to wind me up... with such ridiculous nonsense. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
В Thu, 31 Oct 2013 07:25:05 -0700 Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> пишет:
What part of .6MB of needed documentation to begin to understand systemd don't you understand? I need no special documentation for the scripts that brought up the system in SysVinit.
Except - you had to at some point need to learn shell. And that's not exactly trivial. I doubt you were born with shell knowledge implanted in you brains. - you learn systemd unit description syntax ones and it applies to any unit definition. Every time you have new script you have *new* script which you need to read and understand again. So it is by far not enough to know syntax of shell; you also need programming skills to actually interpret and predict results of shell script. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2013-10-31 at 20:41 +0400, Andrey Borzenkov wrote:
Except
- you had to at some point need to learn shell. And that's not exactly trivial. I doubt you were born with shell knowledge implanted in you brains.
- you learn systemd unit description syntax ones and it applies to any unit definition. Every time you have new script you have *new* script which you need to read and understand again. So it is by far not enough to know syntax of shell; you also need programming skills to actually interpret and predict results of shell script.
Well, that's true. But those services I did I also had to do a script :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlJyj5cACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W1DgCfR3rCCfEvksySokSI/+IJoRy8 ckMAnRh1uiubCvfp+Sfec/g3Ff+xeDZF =pOul -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/31/2013 9:41 AM, Andrey Borzenkov wrote:
� Thu, 31 Oct 2013 07:25:05 -0700 Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> �����:
What part of .6MB of needed documentation to begin to understand systemd don't you understand? I need no special documentation for the scripts that brought up the system in SysVinit.
Except
- you had to at some point need to learn shell. And that's not exactly trivial. I doubt you were born with shell knowledge implanted in you brains.
Ah, I was waiting for someone to bring up that point. I was introduced to Bourne and Korn script back in the mid 80's. I wanted to use it to automate a build procedure. Since then, such scripting has proven superior for most low-level "tying things together work -- even on Windows over it's shell such that I did most of my sysmaint on it in cygwin w/bash. " It's proven it's worth again and again -- it isn't something that can only be used in 1 special case -- w/systemd. That is by far the biggest point. Systemd had to do everything from scratch -- It couldn't even be bothered with the convention of using PATH to look up binaries! The point was -- there was no need for a custom design. Even perl would have been better due to the established base and understanding. But it's would be like requiring people to learn esperanto to communicate with anyone in administration in the U.N. Learning a special purpose language that isn't used anywhere else is a guarantee it will never fully be learned -- if you don't use it all the time, you lose it. Shell gets reused enough that I don't forget it. On top of that. The "language"[sic] of systemd is completely a specialized domain language that is unusable for anything else. They've created a part that won't integrate with anything and doesn't integrate with anything from the past. A completely non-interoperative component that everyone is going on about how great it is as anything that tries to interoperate with it is likely to be subsumed by it (udev/powerd...et all).
- you learn systemd unit description syntax ones and it applies to any unit definition. Every time you have new script you have *new* script which you need to read and understand again. So it is by far not enough to know syntax of shell; you also need programming skills to actually interpret and predict results of shell script.
--- You learn a language and you can speak the language and express multiple concepts. You learn the "bind" (named), or sendmail and what do you have that's usable anywhere else? Nada. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, I would say that this flame is now pointless. We have systemd in openSUSE as default no matter how much you flame about it. If you have issues with systemd, talk to Lennart. If you want to change openSUSE to have something else as default init, find viable alternative and start working on it, maintain it, get it included and then convince people here about it's benefits. These are the options that are not pointless. I would even suggest you to take a look at openRC as it has same feature set similar to systemd (init part), but uses bash scripted init files and might be supporting unit files in future(maybe now, haven't checked in a while) and also has an active upstream. -- Michal HRUSECKY SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. openSUSE Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xFED656F6 19000 Praha 9 mhrusecky[at]suse.cz Czech Republic http://michal.hrusecky.net http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/31/2013 10:44 PM, Michal Hrusecky wrote:
Hi,
I would say that this flame is now pointless.
Dunno how useful it is w/o the legend, but attached is the SVG graph of this conversation. It started out because people couldn't tolerate HTML, which has been around for near 20+ years, because it caused too much change. Then the same people who can't handle something 20 years old, come along and switch to systemd which is .. at most a year or two and certainly not that long since it's first official release (if its had one yet). The flame as you call it was about people claiming they can't change, yet systemd clearly shows that this is wrong. It's more change over a shorter period of time with less compatibiltiy to anything, and yet all the movers and shakers of this list have jumped on its bandwagon -- yet those same people can't tolerate or accept HTML because it's too much change? I think people missed the point. I really had no delusions that anything I said about systemd would make any difference, yet, how can people adopt something like that that has all its faults and incompatibilities (despite it's good features!), yet protest so loudly over html? It just doesn't make sense. And I agree w/the rest of what you said about doing my own thing if it so important. I am doing my own thing.. but whether or not I'll ever productize it is unknown though unlikely. It took me nearly 6 years just to release a module to print things on CPAN, because I kept tweaking it and testing it.. I'm way to demanding/exacting to feel comfortable releasing most things... But then, that's why I'm constantly amazed at what passes for released SW (speaking in general, not about anything OpnSuse specific, to be clear), w/ much of it being Beta quality... so I'd assume I wasn't going to do something until it's done.
Hi, On Mon, Oct 28, Linda Walsh wrote:
Email at its inception was no more than plain text.
And displays were limited to ascii text -- they couldn't do graphics.
There was a reason for such a limitation.
On top of that, there was no internet. Things were done in batches over telephone lines w/uucp.
Neither of those restrictions exist today.
They still exist _sometimes_! I prefer being able to read my mail always and not only on sunny days. [...]
I doubt that anyone here is not regularly email over some sort of GUI.
I _NEVER_ need to use a GUI for reading my mail.
There is little excuse for not adapting to such.
Excuse? For what? [...]
Get an HTML->text translator. Have your html filtered. They've existed for years.
Das ist ja an Überheblichkeit nicht mehr zu überbieten. Erst einfach das falsche Protokoll verwenden, dann eine Entschuldigung von denen fordern, die sich an die Protokolle halten und dann sich einfach auf den Standpunkt stellen, dass jeder sich doch einfach zusätzliche Arbeit machen soll, wenn er mit der selbsternannten Avantgarde kommunizieren möchte... Did not understand what I wrote? Hey, get an German -> English translator. They've existed for years. There is no excuse for not learning the language _I_ prefer!!! Get some dictionary and look up the meaning of "arrogance"! Hubert Mantel -- 1. e4!! (M27) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hubert Mantel wrote:
Get an HTML->text translator. Have your html filtered. They've existed for years.
Das ist ja an Überheblichkeit nicht mehr zu überbieten. Erst einfach das falsche Protokoll verwenden, dann eine Entschuldigung von denen fordern, die sich an die Protokolle halten und dann sich einfach auf den Standpunkt stellen, dass jeder sich doch einfach zusätzliche Arbeit machen soll, wenn er mit der selbsternannten Avantgarde kommunizieren möchte...
Did not understand what I wrote? Hey, get an German -> English translator. They've existed for years. There is no excuse for not learning the language _I_ prefer!!!
Get some dictionary and look up the meaning of "arrogance"!
+1 Well said. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/29/2013 3:23 AM, Hubert Mantel wrote:
Das ist ja an �berheblichkeit nicht mehr zu �berbieten. Erst einfach das falsche Protokoll verwenden, dann eine Entschuldigung von denen fordern, die sich an die Protokolle halten und dann sich einfach auf den Standpunkt stellen, dass jeder sich doch einfach zus�tzliche Arbeit machen soll, wenn er mit der selbsternannten Avantgarde kommunizieren m�chte...
Did not understand what I wrote? Hey, get an German -> English translator. They've existed for years. There is no excuse for not learning the language _I_ prefer!!!
If you intermix languages, then you WANT HTML. -- you want mime-typing. HTML is properly tagged as such. Your line noise is interspersed with cleartext and is not tagged. If it was appropriately tagged, (and if I read this on the web), or my email reader had a plugin to autoconvert langs, it wouldn't be a problem. But jointly, with HTML, you get mime-tagging. Something you didn't use. So you inserted binary data into the middle of an english discussion -- it would be like me inserting: H4sIAAtqclIAA02Q3W3DMBCD3zUFBwi8Q4DmvUAnkK2zpVg+FfpxAe8WdKSuUMppi74JIPkd qRdbEErF3cIqvj4fo2QvYwyTXyVUKB8Vm/iMo/3oY5AqOuCWGZSgs508HEFmtrFMXvCaU01r ihG75A9RJ3qhQ7XbBTettLXowtJ0wZ4UdIhiTtlJpte4ICi83Vv19x9R4G3keTR1T+Rp+61h 29xZeKtW3XvTtcKUKsydDUrBXXjiGXLpX/JohfPq0acLrnns8zcqpBUevoBDFIbhjcoJkTgS npU1eqXrbrUulhuwpm1rGo4gmcJGMv9RhmEwMN+EZu74dAEAAA== And sneering at you for not understanding it (it's your paragraph, BTW, zip'ed and mime-encoded). Notice it's SHORTER than your original message! People talk about bloat of HTML -- when they write in "bloated" ascii text rather than a compact format? Bloat is not *necessarily* an excuse (*by itself*). Readability is. Unless I know I am speaking to an audience that understands HTML, I include my message in both formats. I don't assume (as you did) that everyone will understand my formats EVEN if they are will labeled (unlike yours).
Get some dictionary and look up the meaning of "arrogance"!
--- I wasn't the one who started this chain. I was repeating the same tone with the positions reversed. If you don't like the tone that people took toward those who would write in HTML, then direct your anger toward them. I agree their position could easily be called arrogant. But I don't usually bother to label it that every time it is used. When those who start from their privileged positions and don't see the inherent biases and arrogance of such, but go on to accuse others of such, I see it as only fair to point that many of the excuses they use to support their position are very subjective. But when you use foreign characters and don't even label that your sections use such, you are being hypcritical towards those who want to use HTML encoding and characters. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/31/2013 10:50 AM, Linda Walsh pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On 10/29/2013 3:23 AM, Hubert Mantel wrote:
Get some dictionary and look up the meaning of "arrogance"!
--- I wasn't the one who started this chain. I was repeating the same tone with the positions reversed. If you don't like the tone that people took toward those who would write in HTML, then direct your anger toward them. I agree their position could easily be called arrogant. But I don't usually bother to label it that every time it is used. When those who start from their privileged positions and don't see the inherent biases and arrogance of such, but go on to accuse others of such, I see it as only fair to point that many of the excuses they use to support their position are very subjective.
But when you use foreign characters and don't even label that your sections use such, you are being hypcritical towards those who want to use HTML encoding and characters.
If you dislike the rule on this list about NO HTML you can always contact the list owner (who sets the rules) via email at: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2013-10-28 at 20:23 -0700, Linda Walsh wrote:
On 10/28/2013 10:59 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
On top of that, there was no internet. Things were done in batches over telephone lines w/uucp.
Neither of those restrictions exist today.
There are still people with limited or no internet reading the list. Size is an issue for them. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.3 x86_64 "Dartmouth" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlJvpiMACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XCjgCbBUt8pKIZ53gzw7vcsdTbCruo gocAn3VVzk/Bt3Ds5v41UKozx2djuAAi =Gljr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 29.10.2013 04:23, schrieb Linda Walsh:
Isn't suse moving to systemd? There is very little ascii text about that,
nice try. susi:~ # rpm -ql systemd|grep /man/|wc 274 274 12221 fail. -- Stefan Seyfried "If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/30/2013 12:35 AM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Am 29.10.2013 04:23, schrieb Linda Walsh:
Isn't suse moving to systemd? There is very little ascii text about that,
nice try.
susi:~ # rpm -ql systemd|grep /man/|wc 274 274 12221 fail.
Now show me how many extra lines were needed with SysVInit to explain what startup scripts did. They were written in a well understood language using tools that have been around for over 30 years. The fact that systemd NEEDS considerable amounts of extra documentation to describe it's non-readable, specialized format config scripts (not to mention it's binary log format), is the point -- systemd doesn't use ascii -- it needs considerable documentation to explain the formats and encodings it uses. Original statement still stands. There is very little readable text that can be understood without the translation documents you mention. Most people on linux, who have done system admin work could very likely read nearly all the shell scripts that configured sysVinit w/o the need to look things up OR look in multiple places. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 2013-10-31 at 08:01 -0700, Linda Walsh wrote:
On 10/30/2013 12:35 AM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Am 29.10.2013 04:23, schrieb Linda Walsh:
Isn't suse moving to systemd? There is very little ascii text about that,
nice try.
susi:~ # rpm -ql systemd|grep /man/|wc 274 274 12221 fail.
Now show me how many extra lines were needed with SysVInit to explain what startup scripts did. They were written in a well understood language using tools that have been around for over 30 years.
You're wasting your time, the decision has been made. The only question is what the decision to trash man-centuries of experience built upon traditional UNIX pipe/filter/script "there are ten thousand ways to skin any given cat" simplicity/flexibility will cost. -Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 10/31/2013 12:10 PM, Mike Galbraith wrote:
You're wasting your time, the decision has been made. The only question is what the decision to trash man-centuries of experience built upon traditional UNIX pipe/filter/script "there are ten thousand ways to skin any given cat" simplicity/flexibility will cost.
Well, you could say the same about using proportional fonts in reading material, but there are STILL holdouts who insist on using plain monospaced fonts in mail groups today! How such a group can do a decision to switch to systemd that runs their systems w/such ease, yet complain over text formats in email seems a bit odd, wouldn't ya think? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 2013-10-28 15:40, Archie Cobbs wrote:
Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:
14:42 ares07:~ > xfs_info . meta-data=/dev/md7 isize=256 agcount=32, agsize=22891675 blks = sectsz=512 attr=2 data = bsize=4096 blocks=732533583, imaxpct=5 = sunit=0 swidth=0 blks naming =version 2 bsize=4096 ascii-ci=0 log =internal bsize=4096 blocks=357682, version=2 = sectsz=512 sunit=0 blks, lazy-count=1 realtime =none extsz=4096 blocks=0, rtextents=0
Unfortunately, I can't read any of the reported statistics. Why are they unreadable? Because all of the emails are plain text, but rendered in Gmail in a non-fixed width font, so the columns don't line up.
Then you should stop using Gmail. They spy on you anyway. The only time when rendering a text/plain mail with proportional fonts starts being ok is when the header has a "text-flowed" setting. Which mine don't. That said, I don't even complain about your HTML mails and I still read them, so give me some leeway! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (23)
-
Andrey Borzenkov -
Archie Cobbs -
Brian K. White -
Bruno Friedmann -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Claudio Freire -
Felix Miata -
Hubert Mantel -
James Knott -
Jan Engelhardt -
Jon Nelson -
Ken Schneider - openSUSE -
Larry Finger -
Linda Walsh -
Michal Hrusecky -
Mike Galbraith -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Stefan Seyfried -
Thomas Taylor -
Yamaban