Hello Dne Pá 21. listopadu 2014 07:39:46, Anton Aylward napsal(a):

On 11/21/2014 07:17 AM, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

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Hello, I today upgraded openSUSE 13.1 to 13.2. I wonder why zypper dup is willing to install 77 new pacakges:

$ sudo LC_ALL=C LANG=C zypper dup Warning: You are about to do a distribution upgrade with all enabled repositories. Make sure these repositories are compatible before you continue. See 'man zypper' for more information about this command.

Well first of all why are you doing a "dup" rather than an "up"

I do it regularly like that to keep newest package regardless repository of origin.

What do you get, by comparison, if you run with "up" rather than 'dup"

zypper up doesn't suggest those changes.

I've NEVER had the need to do a "dup" except when *preparing* for an online upgrade from one level of the OS to the next, and you are not making clear if that's what you are doing. I get the *impression* from the repositories you list you are doing this AFTER the upgrade.

This is after the upgrade. Before it was ok. I rather use dup for normal updates. Until now no problem with that custom.

Could you clarify that detail, please. Is this before or after the upgrade? [...]

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How can I find why they are going to be installed? When I launch graphical YaST, it doesn't require it to be installed. Any ideas?

Sadly graphical yast, while pretty and often useful in other ways, is crippled when it comes to communicating dependencies for packages that are not installed yet! This is pretty dumb as it need to know the dependencies if its going to install them!

"Obviously" that long list of what was going to be installed is some kind of dependency cascade, and it was determined _before_ the installation was done, so this information is there.

The man page says quote clearly

Zypper uses a dependency solver to find out what packages need to be installed to satisfy the user's request.

You might try "zypper list-updates"

The list is empty.

There is also this

--no-force-resolution Do not force the solver to find a solution. Instead, report dependency problem and prompt the user to resolve it manually.

It will involve a lot of step-and-repeat but it will show up the dependency.

I don't know of a zypper option that display the dependency tree for yet-to-be-installed packages.

$ LC_ALL=C sudo zypper info --requires bzr Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... Information for package bzr: ---------------------------- Repository: Hlavní repozitář (OSS) Name: bzr Version: 2.6.0-2.1.7 Arch: x86_64 Vendor: openSUSE Installed: No Status: not installed Installed Size: 12.4 MiB Summary: Friendly distributed version control system Description: Bazaar is a distributed version control system designed to be easy to use and intuitive, able to adapt to many workflows, reliable, and easily extendable. Requires: libc.so.6()(64bit) libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.2.5)(64bit) libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.4)(64bit) libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.14)(64bit) libc.so.6(GLIBC_2.3.4)(64bit) libpthread.so.0()(64bit) libpthread.so.0(GLIBC_2.2.5)(64bit) /usr/bin/python libpython2.7.so.1.0()(64bit) python-xml rpmlib(CompressedFileNames) <= 3.0.4-1 rpmlib(PayloadFilesHavePrefix) <= 4.0-1 rpmlib(PayloadIsLzma) <= 4.4.6-1 python(abi) == 2.7 As I understand it, „Requires“ are required by the package in question, but the question is complementar - which existing package suggests or requires to install this one. I tries zypper se --suggests, but there is no installed package suggesting those in question. Weird think: when I install those packages and run rpmorpan, it suggests to remove those newly installed...

On the whole, my advice is 'DO NOT USE "DUP"'

Seems like at least a workaround for now... Thank You for advices, Vojtěch -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux http://www.opensuse.org/ http://trapa.cz/

Dne Pá 21. listopadu 2014 16:40:08 jste napsal(a):

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 4:16 PM, Vojtěch Zeisek

wrote:

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Well first of all why are you doing a "dup" rather than an "up"

I do it regularly like that to keep newest package regardless repository of origin.

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What do you get, by comparison, if you run with "up" rather than 'dup"

zypper up doesn't suggest those changes.

Which most likely means that some packages will change origin. zypper up will keep source repository; zypper dup will silently change it.

Yes, I know.

zypper dup is almost always wrong, unless you are absolutely sure about content and scope of your repositories and where you want to get each package from. But then you would not ask this question ... :)

It had been working for me until now... ;-) There apparently were some changes in 13.2 affecting this behaviour. Number of those packages lowered when I removed patterns, but still there are over 50. Weird. Why does it wish to install several content version systems in once? I have same packages as in 13.1 and there were no such problems... Vojtěch -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux http://www.opensuse.org/ http://trapa.cz/

Dne Pá 21. listopadu 2014 08:58:13, Ken Schneider - openSUSE napsal(a):

On 11/21/2014 08:49 AM, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

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Dne Pá 21. listopadu 2014 16:40:08 jste napsal(a):

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On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 4:16 PM, Vojtěch Zeisek

wrote:

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Well first of all why are you doing a "dup" rather than an "up"

I do it regularly like that to keep newest package regardless repository of origin.

...

What do you get, by comparison, if you run with "up" rather than 'dup"

zypper up doesn't suggest those changes.

Which most likely means that some packages will change origin. zypper up will keep source repository; zypper dup will silently change it.

Yes, I know.

But what you apparently don't know is that version numbering between different repos for the same package is meaningless. Each packager uses their own numbering system. Just because the number is higher does not guarantee it is newer.

This is news, indeed. But again, I hadn't dad issues with that. When I turned off installation of recommended packages in /etc/zypp/zypper.conf this „offer“ disappeared. BTW, I turned on colours there. Very nice. :-) So there are apparently some changes in recommended packages or behaviour of zypper, which is more pushing recommended packages. Well, OK, lets keep with „up“, as it seems to be the only way. Thank You, Vojtěch -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux http://www.opensuse.org/ http://trapa.cz/

On November 21, 2014 9:11:31 AM EST, "Vojtěch Zeisek" wrote:

Dne Pá 21. listopadu 2014 08:58:13, Ken Schneider - openSUSE napsal(a):

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On 11/21/2014 08:49 AM, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

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Dne Pá 21. listopadu 2014 16:40:08 jste napsal(a):

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On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 4:16 PM, Vojtěch Zeisek

wrote:

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Well first of all why are you doing a "dup" rather than an "up"

I do it regularly like that to keep newest package regardless repository of origin.

...

What do you get, by comparison, if you run with "up" rather than 'dup"

zypper up doesn't suggest those changes.

Which most likely means that some packages will change origin. zypper up will keep source repository; zypper dup will silently change it.

Yes, I know.

But what you apparently don't know is that version numbering between different repos for the same package is meaningless. Each packager uses their own numbering system. Just because the number is higher does not guarantee it is newer.

This is news, indeed. But again, I hadn't dad issues with that. When I turned off installation of recommended packages in /etc/zypp/zypper.conf this „offer“ disappeared. BTW, I turned on colours there. Very nice. :-) So there are apparently some changes in recommended packages or behaviour of zypper, which is more pushing recommended packages. Well, OK, lets keep with „up“, as it seems to be the only way. Thank You, Vojtěch

Before everyone puts arrows in you, tumbleweed mandates zypper dup be used. I always like to know exactly where packages are coming from so I use: zypper dup --from I get the repo number from zypper lr. Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/21/2014 09:27 AM, jdd wrote:

Le 21/11/2014 15:23, Greg Freemyer a écrit :

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I always like to know exactly where packages are coming from so I use:

looks like repo priority is deprecated, I nearly never see discussion about it, then I gess it's better to hav new repositories have a lower number than old if a repository change is expected?

Repo priority is one of those things that are in the "don't fiddle with it unless you are absolutely sure" class. You reasoning for why a new (do you mean newly added or what?) repository should have a lower priority makes no sense. All in all the reasoning I've seen for altering priorities is shaky. This is a facility that could be removed with asymptotically close to zero impact apart from upsetting a few who use -- well probably abuse -- it. For my sins, I tried it one and it led to complications and mistakes and broke my system. If you think you know what you're doing playing with priorities you're most likely mistaken! If you mean repositories for 13.2 should have a lower priority than ones for 13.1 then WTF ARE YOU DOING? WHY ARE YOU MIXING REPOSITORIES FOR DIFFERENT SYSTEMS? Quite apart from what ken said about different numbering schemes, it makes no sense. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/21/2014 10:39 AM, jdd wrote:

Le 21/11/2014 15:39, Anton Aylward a écrit :

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You reasoning for why a new (do you mean newly added or what?)

yes, newly added

That makes no sense.

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repository should have a lower priority makes no sense.

I mean specially for packman. there are duplicate packages in standard repos and in packman and I want packman ones

That makes no sense. Like others here I use Darktable and like many other I make use of the Toganm_Photography repository. The owner pulls and complies the latest updates daily. So far he's ALWAYS more up to date than the openSuse repositories. So far. But if the openSuse one are ever more up to date then I want THAT one and no his! I suspect you are in the same situation with packman, you want the most up to date, regardless of whether its in the main repo or the packman repo. Now if you have both at the same priority you will always get the more recent one. Unless, and I admit its unlikely, just as its unlikely that the main repo will have the most up to date version of Darktable, the main repo has a more up to date version of something than packman's repo, wouldn't you want that? Isn't the whole point of these alternate repos to get either stuff that isn't in the main repo (in which case differential priority doesn't matter) or the most up to date version? If you say one has a higher priority than the other and one has a more recent package, which do you think will be used, regardless of the priority? You have no justification in the use-case you describe for altering the priorities. In fact it may run counter to your desires. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Dne Pá 21. listopadu 2014 11:00:58, Anton Aylward napsal(a):

On 11/21/2014 10:39 AM, jdd wrote:

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Le 21/11/2014 15:39, Anton Aylward a écrit :

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repository should have a lower priority makes no sense.

I mean specially for packman. there are duplicate packages in standard repos and in packman and I want packman ones

That makes no sense.

Like others here I use Darktable and like many other I make use of the Toganm_Photography repository. The owner pulls and complies the latest updates daily. So far he's ALWAYS more up to date than the openSuse repositories. So far. But if the openSuse one are ever more up to date then I want THAT one and no his!

I suspect you are in the same situation with packman, you want the most up to date, regardless of whether its in the main repo or the packman repo.

Now if you have both at the same priority you will always get the more recent one. Unless, and I admit its unlikely, just as its unlikely that the main repo will have the most up to date version of Darktable, the main repo has a more up to date version of something than packman's repo, wouldn't you want that? Isn't the whole point of these alternate repos to get either stuff that isn't in the main repo (in which case differential priority doesn't matter) or the most up to date version?

I'll look like and idiot with my question, but never mind. :-) You are confusing me little bit. I thought zypper up by default doesn't change vendor. So how can You have newest Darktable regardless repository? And I suppose they have same numbering scheme, right?

If you say one has a higher priority than the other and one has a more recent package, which do you think will be used, regardless of the priority?

You have no justification in the use-case you describe for altering the priorities. In fact it may run counter to your desires.

I use to give low priorities to repos from which I need few packages, but not others which are there (and in other repos). Like from particular home project I want just very specific software, but not „general“ libraries. Sincerely, Vojtěch -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux http://www.opensuse.org/ http://trapa.cz/

* Vojtěch Zeisek [11-21-14 11:35]: [...]

I'll look like and idiot with my question, but never mind. :-)

unless you change /etc/zypp/zypp.conf, *or* use "dup".

You are confusing me little bit. I thought zypper up by default doesn't change vendor. So how can You have newest Darktable regardless repository? And I suppose they have same numbering scheme, right?

That is correct "but"... The numbering schemes do not have to match and *usually* do not. You will get which-ever is from the highest priority or the highest version depending on allowing "change vendor" and/or using up or dup. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 5:23 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

Before everyone puts arrows in you, tumbleweed mandates zypper dup be used.

Yes, it was true in the past because new TW version was based on different repository so you could not expect that it had higher RPM versions. Now, when we expect TW to stick to the same repo forever, this reason no more exists.

I always like to know exactly where packages are coming from so I use:

zypper dup --from

This works only if you want all packges from there. E.g. I have QEMU BIOS from Virtualization repo (because it is actual) but QEMU itself from stock 13.2. If I did "dup --from Virtualization" I would get all QEMU replaced. That what I meant when I said "unless you are absolutely sure in content of your repositories". But content changes over the time ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/21/2014 07:13 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

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On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 5:23 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

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Before everyone puts arrows in you, tumbleweed mandates zypper dup be used.

Yes, it was true in the past because new TW version was based on different repository so you could not expect that it had higher RPM versions. Now, when we expect TW to stick to the same repo forever, this reason no more exists.

But "factory" has been using "zypper dup" for years as far as I know.

Surely the new tumbleweed requires it just as factory has.

Don't forget that part of the purpose of "dup" rather than "up" is to REMOVE packages. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/21/2014 08:16 AM, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

[snip]

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Well first of all why are you doing a "dup" rather than an "up"

I do it regularly like that to keep newest package regardless repository of origin.

That makes no sense at all. Read the man page for the difference between an "upgrade" and a "distribution upgrade". If you want the newest packages as you state then you should, as I and many others do, simply use 'up"

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What do you get, by comparison, if you run with "up" rather than 'dup"

zypper up doesn't suggest those changes.

Well there you have it.

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I've NEVER had the need to do a "dup" except when *preparing* for an online upgrade from one level of the OS to the next, and you are not making clear if that's what you are doing. I get the *impression* from the repositories you list you are doing this AFTER the upgrade.

This is after the upgrade. Before it was ok. I rather use dup for normal updates. Until now no problem with that custom.

Well I suggest you change your practice. There is no reason to use "dup" __AFTER__ the upgrade for simple upgrades to the install base, and as for 'new' packages, there are probably missions coving all manner of fields that you are simply not interested in! When you run the graphic form via yast you can see all the installed package, the unmarked boxes. Do you really want to install all of those? I suspect not. As to you doing this before, well if you run 'dup' repeatedly eventually it will stabilise, all that unwanted stuff will be installed and then there's nothing more to do.

the user's request.

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You might try "zypper list-updates"

The list is empty.

Right, that means there are no updates. The reason you got that list with 'dup" is that those were new installs of things you didn't want.

As I understand it, „Requires“ are required by the package in question, but the question is complementar - which existing package suggests or requires to install this one. I tries zypper se --suggests, but there is no installed package suggesting those in question. Weird think: when I install those packages and run rpmorpan, it suggests to remove those newly installed...

I think your problem is that you need a better understanding of what a "Distribution upgrade" is about. Perhaps someone else can help here, since it seems I'm not getting the message though.

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On the whole, my advice is 'DO NOT USE "DUP"'

Seems like at least a workaround for now...

Its no a 'workaround', its the way you _should_ be using zypper. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 22/11/2014 12:42, Anton Aylward a écrit :

The more I think about this more I come to conclude that the reasons people are stating for using "dup" and altering priorities either don't do quite what they say that want to achieve or have unwanted side effects.

you link say: This often happens if one forgets to remove older release repository after adding a new one, say openSUSE 11.1 and openSUSE 11.2. and, of course, this is really bad :-( my concern is a bit different I don't want to use zypper dup, I only want to pull my software from where I know they are ok. and, being multimedia very required softwares, I need a way to explain new commers how to do it. The best way I know for now is two fold: * for a one and only one software (aka cdrecord, for example), go to obs, search for the software, clic on your distro version link and use "1clic install". I guess this set the good repository and there will be no change after that. * for packman, and libdvdcss the best way I know is to enable packman and libdvdcss repo in community repos, then in YaST/ software go to the *repositories view* and choose software from there, but this needs to select also already installed software to allow vendor change and it's there that it become tricky for most people (where the dup may be necessary). What we need badly is a way to automate this as much as possible for everybody, and make sure audacity, ffmpeg, etc. are always pulled from Packman and never from standard repos. I see two solutions: a script available somewhere that do, or a 1clic install doing the same ("allow multimedia support"), but this don't seems to be possible, or is it? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 22/11/2014 13:46, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

On 2014-11-22 13:20, jdd wrote:

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and, being multimedia very required softwares, I need a way to explain new commers how to do it.

I think that on tumbleweed you need to set packman to a lower priority number, and use "zypper dup".

I was thinking so, but no everybody agree :-(

The problem is that packages come and go, and some need to be deleted. With "dup", you essentially "duplicate" the repository, so that packagers do not have to carefully care for all the dependencies all the time.

I don't really understand that :-( jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 22/11/2014 16:07, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

With dup, everything gets replaced with /new/ versions. If a package dissapears from the repo, it gets removed from your machine, too. Hopefully you get a conflict if something still requires it.

wgy should it be removed if something else needs it? major dependecies should not disapear during the life of a distro!. Else do you mean that zypper up do not remove obsolete unwanted files? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 22/11/2014 17:01, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

The purpose in life of Tumbleweed is change. Of course that packages will disappear and others appear, and be broken at times. And dependencies do break.

yes, so not a problem. By the way I fear the discussion have several different goals mine was installing multimedia package in stable distro, and if I use dup it's only once. I guess I will stop. Still time to discuss again this later on more precise thread jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-11-22 15:38, Greg Freemyer wrote:

This thread got split onto -factory.

Intentional, in order to get developers into the question. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)