Basil Chupin wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Wednesday 26 November 2008 02:20:45 am David C. Rankin wrote:

...

List,

At novell, are the same people that did KDE3 development, bug squashing, etc. (support) the same folks that are supporting KDE4 or were separate teams used?

They are the same group of KDE developers.

Why do you ask?

I would have thought that this was obvious: why are people being asked to provide details when they say that they want to see the same features in KDE3 to be in KDE4. If the team developing KDE4 is the same which developed KDE3 then....... :-) .

Ciao.

Basil, that struck me as odd too. Another thing that was really bothering me was, if this new desktop was a complete recode and written from the ground up, why are we seeing the exact same bugs in KDE4 that were present in KDE. The kdesu/kdesudo bug is a KDE3 bug. If KDE4 is a complete rewrite, why is that bug still there ......8-P. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. | openSoftware und SystemEntwicklung Rankin Law Firm, PLLC | Countdown for openSuSE 11.1 www.rankinlawfirm.com | http://counter.opensuse.org/11.1/small -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Wednesday 26 November 2008 02:20:45 am David C. Rankin wrote:

...

List,

At novell, are the same people that did KDE3 development, bug squashing, etc. (support) the same folks that are supporting KDE4 or were separate teams used? They are the same group of KDE developers.

Why do you ask?

Well it seemed that there was a complete disconnect from the stalwart goals of a KDE project, efficiency and user-customization. My impression from working with these guys on Beta5 bugs was that the past goals of KDE have been demoted to nothing more than luke-warm concerns.

Providing the most efficient desktop by minimizing the number of extraneous clicks or key+combo+clicks required has always been a primary concern to the design and to the devs I've worked with in the past on bug issues. Being the "Most Customizable Desktop", I was surprised to get ambivalence when asking how to set my icon text width for konqueror to 525 px. I got a you can't do it response and that my choices were small, medium and large now???

It just seemed to me that the old developers that were committed to efficiency of use and customization were not there anymore and they had been replaced by techs that didn't know what the goal for the desktop were. That's why I asked.

Here is just one example: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=445542 -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. | openSoftware und SystemEntwicklung Rankin Law Firm, PLLC | Countdown for openSuSE 11.1 www.rankinlawfirm.com | http://counter.opensuse.org/11.1/small -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:23 PM, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:

It strikes me that the people driving KDE 4 are more interested in "Gee Whiz" features, than function. I watched a KDE 4 demo last year and I couldn't believe what was being promoted could be considered an improvement. Judging from what I've been reading here, I wasn't far off the mark.

Keep in mind that the openSUSE KDE devs are just a part of the overall KDE team. While I have also questioned the direction of KDE4, it seems that we will be stuck with it and with trying to get the useful KDE3 features added in with all the new "Mac/Vista" "features". I do think that some of the devs haven't used a Pentium 3 system in a long time and don't realize how slow KDE4 is without the newer CPUs and graphics cards. It's almost the way Macs went. You have to have a specific card for Quartz Extreme and AGP for Core Image(which is a technical limitation of the PCI bus anyway). My 2 laptops are a Thinkpad A22p P3/1Ghz/256MB(has a bad RAM slot, but would max at 512MB) and a Thinkpad X21 P3/700Mhz/384MB(Max RAM). The A22p has a Rage 128 based video chip and the X21 has a Mobility chip in it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Andrew Joakimsen <joakimsen@gmail.com> wrote:

You can't expect the latest software to keep on running on older machines forever. Maybe keeping 3.5 on those machines is the best idea? I don't think that Windows Vista or Mac OS X will run "great" on either of those machines... --

Vista is the model we are following now? -- ----------JSA--------- Someone stole my tag line, so now I have this rental. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Herbert Graeber <hgraeber@opensuse.org> wrote:

No, the opposite. Vista keeps all of its past alive.

Ah, no. Vista has broken with enough hardware and software that most businesses can't "upgrade" to it.

KDE4 tries to port everything worth doing things the new way. Unfortunately this needs mcu hresources in people and time, so not everything is read from the start and some things will be left behind.

What was so wrong with the old way? Oh wait, they wanted to add bling, and KDE3 couldn't do it. That's the motivation.

A clean KDE4 (without anything from KDE left) will need less resources then KDE3 alone.

That's the rumor. So far I haven't seen it.

BTW: This is the wrong list for such things. The decision to go this way has been made by the KDE project, not by openSUSE. Yes there are KDE developers on this list, but only a small fraction of them.

No thanks. I don't need to butt heads against people who have already decided that KDE4 is better and have forgotten what made KDE3 great. Give me easy options to turn off eye-candy. And no, I don't NEED widgets. They are useless to me and annoying. Like the OS X and Vista Dock. Is KDE4 going to have a way to emulate the KDE3 desktop? If so, then what was the point? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 04 December 2008 00:30, Herbert Graeber wrote:

Am Mittwoch 03 Dezember 2008 23:27:25 schrieb Larry Stotler:

...

...

KDE4 tries to port everything worth doing things the new way. Unfortunately this needs mcu hresources in people and time, so not everything is read from the start and some things will be left behind.

What was so wrong with the old way? Oh wait, they wanted to add bling, and KDE3 couldn't do it. That's the motivation.

This bling is neccessary, to meet expectations of potential new users. The only thing that's wrong with the old way, that it may be in the way, when there is a new more flexible method, to achive the same or better results.

That's strange.. Everyone I talk to wants things to just work. Bling isn't necessary.

...

...

A clean KDE4 (without anything from KDE left) will need less resources then KDE3 alone.

That's the rumor. So far I haven't seen it.

Sure that's the future. Currently ther are some things, where one needs KDE3 applications to fill the gap.

In the mean time, we put up with half a desktop that doesn't work.

But to get the features, you want, you have to convince the KDE developers. The openSUSE project can only keep KDE3 alive for another version of the distribution, but some day KDE3 is really dead and in terms of progress it is already dead right now.

...

Give me easy options to turn off eye-candy. And no, I don't NEED widgets. They are useless to me and annoying. Like the OS X and Vista Dock. Is KDE4 going to have a way to emulate the KDE3 desktop? If so, then what was the point?

Use a folder plasmoid, that covers the whole desktop and some plasmoids in the panel instead of task icons and you have nearly the same like a KDE3 desktop.

The last time I saw this, I had to ask. What the heck is a plasmoid? Or a widget? The answer I got was that somewhere there is an entire place that explains everything. Gee, that's great. But in the meantime I don't have a working desktop, and can't figure it out. I need to go somewhere to get instructions. Let's see. From Kde1 to 2, and then to 3, I didn't have to do this. When installed, it picked up the old setup, and kept right on working. I didn't have to completely re-do the settings.

Sure, there are some things missing. KDE devolpers working for Novel have backported many features of KDE 4.2, because openSUSE users demand them. But have alokk on http://planetkde.org: Not all KDE developers like that, because they will get many additional bug reports because of this.

Everything has two sides...

Yea, it's the KDE4 way, or no way. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 10.0 Kernel 2.6.13 X86_64 KDE 3.4 Kmail 1.8 8:49am up 56 days 12:58, 4 users, load average: 1.09, 1.14, 1.15 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen schrieb:

Mike wrote:

...

On Thursday 04 December 2008 00:30, Herbert Graeber wrote:

...

...

Use a folder plasmoid, that covers the whole desktop and some plasmoids in the panel instead of task icons and you have nearly the same like a KDE3 desktop. The last time I saw this, I had to ask. What the heck is a plasmoid? Or a widget? The answer I got was that somewhere there is an entire place that explains everything. Gee, that's great. But in the meantime I don't have a working desktop, and can't figure it out.

Very odd this should come up just now.

I've spent the last 30 minutes trying to put the simple command /usr/bin/kfmclient openProfile filemanagement into a desktop icon. (plasmoid, confuse-oid, call it what you will).

You can do this easily enough with anything that is in the menu but you can't seem to just add a desktop icon for a heavily used task. There is just no method to do so. Windows, Mac, Kde3, Gnome, XFCE4, they can all do this in the most obvious way. Why can't KDE4?

The only way to do this that I could find was to create a menu item with menu editor (very well hidden, that) and from there you can create a obfuscate-oid on the desktop. Why? Why does it have to be that difficult.

Yes, I know, everybody has a special feature he is missing. But this is not about a single feature, but about the whole picture. BTW: you can drag an icon from the menu into the desktop folder. And you can using the desktops property dialog, you can have a folder spanning over the whole desktop, similar to the KDE3 one. You will ask, why isn't this the default. But why hide such new features? Why shouldn't the new flexibility be show to the user? Now it it is possible to have more than folder on the desktop! I heard people asking for such a feature. Now they have got it! ~/Desktop isn't special any more... You can even having virtual folders there showing the results of a search, and so on. Many new useful features, no bling. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mike schrieb:

On Thursday 04 December 2008 11:44, Herbert Graeber wrote:

...

...

I've spent the last 30 minutes trying to put the simple command /usr/bin/kfmclient openProfile filemanagement into a desktop icon. (plasmoid, confuse-oid, call it what you will).

You can do this easily enough with anything that is in the menu but you can't seem to just add a desktop icon for a heavily used task. There is just no method to do so. Windows, Mac, Kde3, Gnome, XFCE4, they can all do this in the most obvious way. Why can't KDE4?

The only way to do this that I could find was to create a menu item with menu editor (very well hidden, that) and from there you can create a obfuscate-oid on the desktop. Why? Why does it have to be that difficult. Yes, I know, everybody has a special feature he is missing. But this is not about a single feature, but about the whole picture.

And the "whole picture" seems disjointed. That is a special feature that's necessary if someone wants to get work done.

...

BTW: you can drag an icon from the menu into the desktop folder. And you can using the desktops property dialog, you can have a folder spanning over the whole desktop, similar to the KDE3 one.

Why? A folder for the desktop? Why not just a desktop? There are folks that really prefer simplicity, and NOT BLING! And I do use kde. I've used it as long as I've run SuSE, which is somewhere around 10 years or so.

...

You will ask, why isn't this the default. But why hide such new features? Why shouldn't the new flexibility be show to the user?

Now it it is possible to have more than folder on the desktop! I heard people asking for such a feature. Now they have got it! ~/Desktop isn't special any more...

You can even having virtual folders there showing the results of a search, and so on. Many new useful features, no bling.

Naa. That's bling. I've got 4 desktops that I use and don't need a folder for each one. One click and I'm on the next one. Simple and easy. I would imagine that one day I'll try KDE4 again, but for now it just doesn't work for me.

I have descrived, that you can configure your Desktop, like the KDE3 one. Were is the Problem. Do that and leave the new features behind. But it looks like you do not like new things at all. Looks like you are not willing to accept anything which is not *exactly* KDE3. So go together with all the others thinking this way and do the support for KDE3 as long as you need it. Because you aren't interested in any new features, this may be possible even for a small team. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

Mike wrote:

...

On Thursday 04 December 2008 00:30, Herbert Graeber wrote:

...

...

Use a folder plasmoid, that covers the whole desktop and some plasmoids in the panel instead of task icons and you have nearly the same like a KDE3 desktop. The last time I saw this, I had to ask. What the heck is a plasmoid? Or a widget? The answer I got was that somewhere there is an entire place that explains everything. Gee, that's great. But in the meantime I don't have a working desktop, and can't figure it out.

Very odd this should come up just now.

I've spent the last 30 minutes trying to put the simple command /usr/bin/kfmclient openProfile filemanagement into a desktop icon. (plasmoid, confuse-oid, call it what you will).

You can do this easily enough with anything that is in the menu but you can't seem to just add a desktop icon for a heavily used task. There is just no method to do so. Windows, Mac, Kde3, Gnome, XFCE4, they can all do this in the most obvious way. Why can't KDE4?

The only way to do this that I could find was to create a menu item with menu editor (very well hidden, that) and from there you can create a obfuscate-oid on the desktop. Why? Why does it have to be that difficult.

Because KDE4 is "new and improved" regardless of how irritating or useless it, in fact, is. -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Fred Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com> [12-04-08 23:12]:

Oh, but this is the "new way" of doing things...."bling" is what's important, ya know!

Fred, this is mostly just noise and is in *no* way helping *any* effort. Are you making bug reports for features you find "missing" or configurations that you are unable to make? Are you making an effort to gain the substance that is missing from the hyperbole? Continual vague references to "it isn't there" and "cannot be done" are really just p...s...ing in the wind, upwind at that. You have much knowledge of features that you feel are very necessary. Please make "specific" and pointed reports so these features and configurations may be seen by the code contributors and added to the code base or ported to the new KDE4. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

...

On 12/5/2008 at 6:51 AM, "Fred A. Miller" <fmiller@lightlink.com> wrote: Patrick Shanahan wrote: Patrick, I'll say it one more time, as many others have already. We assume that the current coders for KDE 4.* are mostly those who coded KDE 3.5. If so, the configuration and fuctionality of KDE 3.5 is well known. When we say we want all of that in KDE 4.*, it should be rather simple to understand what we are requesting.

I think such an assumption is worth NIL! The KDE team has been asking repeatedly that users report to the point what they are missing. Users feel 'to noble' to this... as they were so happy and glad with how KDE3 worked. On the other hand, apparently, there are users that love kde4 the way it is and that are interested in 'extending' it;s functionality. I guess for all those ranters around it would have been 'easier to accept' if the team would have said: "Sorry, we lost interest and we abandon KDE... it's another dead project... but HEY: all the KDE devs think the world is in need of a good Desktop and we now start developping LDE" (L just being the next letter in the alphabet after K) As all the others that seriosly are interested in 'fixing what is broken': stop ranting, create punnctual bug reports, report what feature you are missing. There is plenty in KDE3 which nobody ever uses... simply because it does o longer fit in the current workflows.. so WHY should THI be re-implemented??? Think about it... then write bug reports! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 05 December 2008 12:33, Will Stephenson wrote:

To those who rationalise the difference between KDE 4 and KDE 3 as the replacement of a team of sober getting-things-done engineers with a bunch of bling-happy kids. It hasn't happened. We're still the same guys and frankly we have the reputation in KDE as being the boring ones who make stuff work, sometimes at the cost of annoying the bling-happy kids.

So let's look at what's going on upstream: The 'KDE wants to be Vista' mindset stems from the replacement of kdesktop and kicker with Plasma. Plasma is being successful in making desktop development accessible to a larger set of hackers and these may have priorities different to your own (more eye candy). KDE is, more than ever, a big and rapidly growing project. These new faces blog and videocast vocally, unlike the old guard who have been doing this since the 90s. But this expansion doesn't mean that the project has shifted its overall goals of producing a usable and complete Free desktop. The Plasma project as a whole has had the short term (KDE 4.1 and especially 4.2) goal of reaching parity with the old feature set of the KDE 3 desktop, and has explicitly postponed some of its $insert_buzzword_here innovations until this is done. Away from the desktop shell, we continue refining the productivity apps, rolling out Akonadi so Kontact is robust and efficient, making Dolphin the best Free file manager, and filling in missing utilities like NetworkManager clients.

When I read the rest of this thread, I saw unfounded conjecture and a tendency to assume that KDE and openSUSE don't care about long term, loyal users' needs. I don't really understand why. We are aware of KDE 4's current shortcomings, and we've tried harder than any other distro to make sure that KDE 3 remains a viable alternative while we work to resolve them. The sky isn't falling!

Will, Thanks for the first reasonable explanation as to what is going on. As one of those that was vocal about the "bling", it's nice to actually hear from someone that is working on the underlying problems. I guess I'll have to experiment now. I'll figure out a way to get rid of the bling to start with, and build from there. Time to go and start playing around.. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 10.0 Kernel 2.6.13 X86_64 KDE 3.4 Kmail 1.8 2:09pm up 57 days 18:18, 4 users, load average: 2.34, 2.33, 2.29 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:33 AM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:

Indeed. Even in a 'simple' desktop like KDE 3, there are so many different ways to use the desktop, that it's impossible for us to be aware of them all and check they still work in KDE 4.

I understand that.

To those who rationalise the difference between KDE 4 and KDE 3 as the replacement of a team of sober getting-things-done engineers with a bunch of bling-happy kids. It hasn't happened. We're still the same guys and frankly we have the reputation in KDE as being the boring ones who make stuff work, sometimes at the cost of annoying the bling-happy kids.

But that's what happens when I load KDE4. I get a desktop with a bunch of useless bling that works very different from KDE3. They say first impressions are the most important. Well, some users, who like bling, are probably happy. But a lot of the long time KDE3 users are unhappy because not only is KDE4 full of bling, it doesn't work the way we expect it to work. Then when we point these things out, we are called ranters. I personally don't have the time to go through all the existing bug reports to see if what I feel is missing has been reported. That's why a lot of us bring up these things here. I asked the KDE devs to include KPersonalizer at startup of KDE4 to turn off the bling, but the notes from the meeting stated that it hadn't been ported. However, no mention of whether that was going to happen or not was in the meeting. So, am I supposed to assume that the devs, who are now aware of this, are going to see about taking care of it or do I need to open a bugreport? Communication, which seems to be lacking in some cases.

So let's look at what's going on upstream: The 'KDE wants to be Vista' mindset stems from the replacement of kdesktop and kicker with Plasma. Plasma is being successful in making desktop development accessible to a larger set of hackers and these may have priorities different to your own (more eye candy). KDE is, more than ever, a big and rapidly growing project. These new faces blog and videocast vocally, unlike the old guard who have been doing this since the 90s. But this expansion doesn't mean that the project has shifted its overall goals of producing a usable and complete Free desktop. The Plasma project as a whole has had the short term (KDE 4.1 and especially 4.2) goal of reaching parity with the old feature set of the KDE 3 desktop, and has explicitly postponed some of its $insert_buzzword_here innovations until this is done. Away from the desktop shell, we continue refining the productivity apps, rolling out Akonadi so Kontact is robust and efficient, making Dolphin the best Free file manager, and filling in missing utilities like NetworkManager clients.

It comes down to the "if it aint broke, why fix it?" mentaility. A lot of us don't see why there was such a need for the change, even if you guys have your reasons. But, what bothers us is that the functionality we have come to expect from KDE and the ease of use is now gone in a lot of cases. We are being told that we have to relearn how to use KDE because the new stuff is so much better. And we're like Huh? I have used KDE from 1.x on and I had no problems like this when they changed versions. Of course, over time I have learned more about how to use it, and as I have seen and found features, whether new or not, I've come to expect them. So, when I tried KDE4.04 in 11.0, I was left with an un-customizable mess. Needless to say, I ended up dumping my install and used those KDE3 LiveCDs to re-install with. I did update it to the build service's 4.1.x, but I don't have time to continue to update my system in the "hope" that it will now work the way I expect it to. I barely have the time to try to test any of the betas right now.....

When I read the rest of this thread, I saw unfounded conjecture and a tendency to assume that KDE and openSUSE don't care about long term, loyal users' needs. I don't really understand why. We are aware of KDE 4's current shortcomings, and we've tried harder than any other distro to make sure that KDE 3 remains a viable alternative while we work to resolve them. The sky isn't falling!

And that's because myself and others make it known that we felt it was necessary. And we (at least I) appreciate that. However, what a lot of you guys seem to miss out is that a lot of openSUSE users don't hang out on these lists and they don't make their thought available. Also, a lot of 11.0 users are probably still using KDE4.04 because they don't KNOW that you can add in the build service and update it. So, there's a disconnect not with those of us here, but for those who aren't here. Lack of communication. Honestly, so long as KDE4 has a large share of shortcomings, I personally feel that it shouldn't be pushed over KDE3, which is and will be the case with 11.1,since KDE3 won't be given billing as an easy to find install options. Most people won't realize it's there since it's been moved to the "other" desktop list. That shows the direction that you guys want to take, but so long as KDE4 is lacking or just not an interest for a majority of users(which IS the case since at least the last poll that showed more KDE3 than KDE4 users) then it shouldn't be given top billing. However, you guys disagree, so there's not much I can do about it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Herbert Graeber wrote:

Am Freitag 05 Dezember 2008 19:39:22 schrieb Larry Stotler:

[PRUNED}

You should have less time for ranting, but to look foward what is new in KDE4, its really interesteing and KDE 4.1.3 + Backports from KDE4.2 is much better, than KDE4. Sure!

[PRUNED}

Forget the polls. The only people that participate in such polls are the unsatisfied ones. Most of the people who like KDE4 haven't voted (including me).

Long time I have read these rants and have been silent. But now I cannot accept the attacks on SUSEs KDE team, because they are really working hard to fill the gaps you are seeing in KDE4. You should thank team instead of ranting.

Ah, well done -- that old familiar "rant" word. There is a little saying, which goes very well with your comments about the KDE team "really working hard", "Furious activity is no substitute for understanding". Ciao. -- Be nice to people on your way up - you'll see the same people on your way down. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 05 December 2008 05:27:02 pm Basil Chupin wrote:

"Furious activity is no substitute for understanding".

Well said, but I don't think that they (KDE developers) are running furiously, forgetting main direction. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag 06 Dezember 2008 15:54:27 schrieb Larry Stotler:

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Herbert Graeber <hgraeber@opensuse.org> wrote:

...

One reason was, that the devs (at least the ones at SUSE are backporting some of the features KDE4.1.3 was lacking.

And I realize that. But, it seems like a lot of work to backport something when we could havejust integrated KDE 4.2 Beta, delayed the release back to an 8 month schedule(which shoudl have given time for 4.2 to stabilize), and then just have 4.2. Since I'm not a developer, I don't know how or why things are done or decided upon.

No. if ypu want stability, then a beta version isn't acceptable. And delaying the release isn't acceptable, too. I this would be once, we would start deleaying every release because of something.

...

You should have less time for ranting, but to look foward what is new in KDE4, its really interesteing and KDE 4.1.3 + Backports from KDE4.2 is much better, than KDE4. Sure!

So, when I point out an issue, I am ranting? Nice. I don't accuse anyone of ranting, but I'm a ranter. If you want a rant, I can say:

"KDE4 sucks, is crap, and the devs are a bunch of stupid idiots for wasting their time writing it!"

See, that was a rant.

May be my shoose of the word "rant" wasn' proper (I am not a native english speaker). But waht I observe is that many people here say just bad things about KDE4, which are partly wrong and have no real alternatve. The only possible one is to have the choice to use KDE3 with openSUSE 11.1 and that's possible. Where is the problem. I cannot see it.

...

Forget the polls. The only people that participate in such polls are the unsatisfied ones. Most of the people who like KDE4 haven't voted (including me).

Whatever. If you didn't bother, then you didn't do anything to contribute. WE as a community were ASKED to tell the devs what we were using.

May be I find this type of poll silly? I nearly never take part in them, because the possible answers are too focused already.

...

Long time I have read these rants and have been silent. But now I cannot accept the attacks on SUSEs KDE team, because they are really working hard to fill the gaps you are seeing in KDE4. You should thank team instead of ranting.

No one is "attacking" the openSUSE team. We are questioning why things were done the way they were done. Too much work seems to have been done making bling and not enabing useful features. That's a fact, and if we are considered "attacking", then all of us are just wasting our time.

That's not what the SUSE KDE team has done here. Most of the backports are prue functionality for people like you. Don't let blind you by the bling. BTW: A little bit bling is neccessary, especially to win new users.

...

I cannot see much shortcomings left in KDE 4 of openSUSE 11.1. Mostly in applications, but that's no big problem, I can continue to use the KDE3 apps. And I am sure there will be some online updates for some programs.

Short comings? Well, let's see, it's slower than KDE3 on the same hardware(I have shown this severl times), it uses as much resources as KDE3(I've posted my results several times), and it is harder to turn off the unncessary things that some of us don't care for.

Not fro me, The state some weeks ago wansnt that well. Be the current KDE4.3.1 from the BuildService is OK. I only wished NVIDIA would make better drivers, or even better support open source, lika ATI and VIA are doing now.

There are people who like gnome as well, and I don't bash them. I just don't use it. And KDE4 is at that point right now.

That's a valid choice. If you find what you need elsewhere do it. Open source is of choice.

Your attitude shows that I'm wasting MY time, and should just quit trying to contribute in a non-developer way to one of the best distros around. Thanx for the encouragement.

No, you are not wasting your time. Please continue to tell what you think, you need. But I would like I could see less destructive comments here. KDE4 is NOT so bad. For me it on par with KDE3 in some parts worse in some better. And Im sure it will become better in future. BTW: I think most things disscussed her should be discussed in KDE mailing lists, because only a small fraction of KDE developers can be reached here. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Herbert Graeber <hgraeber@opensuse.org> wrote:

No. if ypu want stability, then a beta version isn't acceptable. And delaying the release isn't acceptable, too. I this would be once, we would start deleaying every release because of something.

That's thrown up a lot, but KDE is a huge part of the distro. It's not like it's something like Firefox.

May be my shoose of the word "rant" wasn' proper (I am not a native english speaker). But waht I observe is that many people here say just bad things about KDE4, which are partly wrong and have no real alternatve. The only possible one is to have the choice to use KDE3 with openSUSE 11.1 and that's possible. Where is the problem. I cannot see it.

Because KDE4 is just plain lacking for so many of us. We have repeatedly tried to make use of it and it just doesn't deliver. Like I said, it's slower, glitzy, missing expected options and configurations, etc. It WILL get better. But it will take time. But for many, the KDE4.04 released with 11.0 was not usable. Yes, it got better after adding the updates for 4.1.x, but a lot of people did not know that was possible, so they were stuck with it as it was released.

May be I find this type of poll silly? I nearly never take part in them, because the possible answers are too focused already.

Yes, but it's something. The devs said that 40% of opensuse users were using KDE4, but it was actually 40% of the KDE users, so KDE3 Still had a majority over KDE4.

That's not what the SUSE KDE team has done here. Most of the backports are prue functionality for people like you. Don't let blind you by the bling. BTW: A little bit bling is neccessary, especially to win new users.

That may be, but when you have to jump through hoops to turn it off, it's a pain. That's why I asked for the return of KPersonalizer at first load. But it hasn't been ported yet......

Not fro me, The state some weeks ago wansnt that well. Be the current KDE4.3.1 from the BuildService is OK. I only wished NVIDIA would make better drivers, or even better support open source, lika ATI and VIA are doing now.

Again, the nVidia and ATI drivers work just fine with KDE3. So, again, it's still a matter of compelling reasons to switch. I'm using the nVidia driver on my 6200 and it's just fine. If I'm going to have issues with KDE4, then I just don't see a reason to run KDE4.

That's a valid choice. If you find what you need elsewhere do it. Open source is of choice.

Correct. But removing choice is the problem. A lot of KDE4 people think that KDE4 is the greatest and KDE3 should be dropped. But, especially from usability standpoints for disabled, KDE4 is not prime time ready for too many. That's why I don't agree with having KDE3 in the "others" catagory. However, the community will have KDE3 livecds hopefully just like we had the 11.0 ones that Carlos made.

No, you are not wasting your time. Please continue to tell what you think, you need. But I would like I could see less destructive comments here. KDE4 is NOT so bad. For me it on par with KDE3 in some parts worse in some better. And Im sure it will become better in future.

For you. Not for me and a small minority of others. Yes, some aren't very tactful, but it's an issue.

BTW: I think most things disscussed her should be discussed in KDE mailing lists, because only a small fraction of KDE developers can be reached here.

Again, I am on about 5 lists. I just don't have time to be on any more right now. However, if you want to forward what I have said, please do. I have seen responses from the devs here and on Factory as well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008 02:12:13 am Lisi Reisz wrote:

So once I can no longer use 3.x.x

Why not? -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Sunday 07 December 2008 09:49:39 Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Sunday 07 December 2008 02:12:13 am Lisi Reisz wrote:

...

So once I can no longer use 3.x.x

Why not?

Because it will eventually be dropped from all repositories and new hardware might necessitate a more up to date distro.

I have high hopes that someone might start a fork from the main KDE stream and continue to support KDE 3.x.x. Sadly I myself have not got the skills needed. :-(

Have you ever used KDE 4.1.3? Haven't you noticed that no one wants to maintain KDE 3 or fork it?

Lisi

Kind regards, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Sunday, 2008-12-07 at 13:01 +0200, auxsvr@gmail.com wrote:

...

...

I have high hopes that someone might start a fork from the main KDE stream and continue to support KDE 3.x.x. Sadly I myself have not got the skills needed. :-(

Have you ever used KDE 4.1.3? Haven't you noticed that no one wants to maintain KDE 3 or fork it?

Haven't you read that he can't use 4?

Lisi Reisz earlier wrote:

Unfortunately, that is exactly what happens to me and probably some others on this list. Bling actually blinds me, in that I cannot see properly, and start to feel ill. As a result of this, I loathe all bling and transparency and things that move all over the place and pale grey on paler grey and .....

There is some bling in KDE 3.x.x, but I am given the opportunity to turn it off _before_ I have to look at the desktop. And I can avoid compiz by just not installing it.

From what I have read of KDE 4 I would find it totally unusable, because I would not be able to see to adjust it and work out where things are.

I would love to take your advice and not let the bling blind me. Unfortunately, I do not have that option.

Lisi wrote that he can't stand bling, I assume he means compiz-like effects. He can disable them if he wants to, he can change KDE colours if he doesn't like them (I did). He also says he would find KDE4 unusable based on other people's opinion. How can one be unable to use KDE 4 if he hasn't tried it?

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

Kind regards, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Content-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.0812071304540.28886@nimrodel.valinor>

On Sunday, 2008-12-07 at 13:44 +0200, auxsvr@gmail.com wrote:

...

...

...

Have you ever used KDE 4.1.3? Haven't you noticed that no one wants to maintain KDE 3 or fork it?

Haven't you read that he can't use 4?

Lisi Reisz earlier wrote:

...

...

...

on this list. Bling actually blinds me, in that I cannot see properly,

························XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX··········XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ...

...

...

From what I have read of KDE 4 I would find it totally unusable, because I would not be able to see to adjust it and work out where things are.

·········XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

...

Lisi wrote that he can't stand bling, I assume he means compiz-like effects.

I have to assume that he has vision problems of some kind.

I have a hard time finding out what kind of vision problems prevent one from using KDE 4 when he already uses KDE3, so I assume you mean that accessibility features are lacking in KDE4, even though no mention of this is made by you or him. Too many assumptions are made here, I think that Lisi shouldn't take what he reads about KDE4 for granted, testing it would be better in my opinion. By the way, I didn't like abandoning KDE3 in the beginning, because I was used to it and could avoid most of its problems. After I used a stable KDE4 version for a week, I changed my opinion, because most things work better in KDE4 and many serious and long-standing KDE3 problems have been fixed. At least one of them (desktop bad design and stability) is almost impossible to fix in KDE3. From all the complaints about KDE4 I've heard, the only that is valid in my opinion is that it's different than KDE3 in ways that many people don't care about, especially with regards to plasma and the interface in general. They seem to be the minority and can continue using KDE3, Kind regards, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008 14:45:27 Carlos E. R. wrote:

He mentioned that bling and transparencies makes him ill.

] Bling actually blinds me, in that I cannot see properly, ] and start to feel ill. As a result of this, I loathe all bling and ] transparency and things that move all over the place and pale grey on ] paler grey and .....

That's not accessibility either.

I also dislike windows moving around when you minimize them, doing a "show off" of getting smaller and going to a bar or somewhere. I prefer a fast disappearing act. I dislike "bling" as a rule, it confuses me. I only use it when I want to "show off" for a windows chap :-p

Could people please stop saying "bling". That word is starting to make me physically ill. It doesn't actually mean anything The desktop effects are actually turned off by default in kde4. If you dislike the fact that they are even available, please start using twm enlightenment has even more effects, and as far as I know, no one is complaining to them. And when compiz first appeared on the scene, people were ecstatic. Plus, unless I'm much mistaken, people are now complaining that there is too much in KDE4, instead of not enough.

Yep, I would like that "bling slider" back. A single, quick to reach, place where I can customize how much bling and what effects I want.

The slider isn't there, but just about every effect is configurable in the control centre Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

auxsvr@gmail.com schreef:

...

Ugh... I don't even know what "bling" is. It's not in the dictionary! This? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bling>

Bling-bling (or simply bling) is a slang term in hip hop culture referring to flashy or elaborate jewelry and ornamented accessories that are carried, worn, or installed, such as cell phones or tooth caps.

I guess it depends on personal preference and opinion. One may consider GUIs to be "bling", in many cases I do so.

I know a guy who considers ion3 his personal bling. Yeah, he's a FreeBSD developer. *g* -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008 13:26:12 auxsvr@gmail.com wrote:

I think that Lisi shouldn't take what he reads about KDE4 for granted, testing it would be better in my opinion.

I am not taking anything for granted. I have looked at KDE 4. I can't see it for all the moving and transparent things. I certainly wouldn't be able to explore it or "test" it. Fortunately for me, it is my doctor and optician who have to help me cope. You seem unable to accept that some of us are to a greater or lesser extent disabled. Lisi P.S. She, not "he" please. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008 15:31:48 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Sonntag, 7. Dezember 2008 16:18:00 schrieb Lisi Reisz:

...

On Sunday 07 December 2008 13:26:12 auxsvr@gmail.com wrote:

...

I think that Lisi shouldn't take what he reads about KDE4 for granted, testing it would be better in my opinion.

I am not taking anything for granted. I have looked at KDE 4. I can't see it for all the moving and transparent things. I certainly wouldn't be able to explore it or "test" it.

To explore the desktop effects such as magnify or invert, you would have to open the menu from the panel, click on systemsettings > desktop > effects. Same for changing the theme to some high contrast theme etc.

There is no transparency involved. So what exactly stopped you, "all the moving and transparent things" sounds a bit too vague.

Why are you getting so heated about it? What difference does it make to you whether I use KDE4 or not? I am not trying to force you into using KDE3, nor being rude about the fact that you prefer 4. That is your prerogative. But it is my prerogative to be disappointed that I feel that I shall probably need to desert KDE, which I love. Note that I have not yet done so. But as things stand, I feel no incentive to go through painful hoops to please the KDE4 lovers. So far I have a choice. There are even distros I can use: Debian and PCLinuxOS, to name but 2. When I feel that I no longer have a choice, I shall look at what is available and chose. If I disliked change, for its own sake, I would still be using Windows and driving a 1965 Hillman Avenger. Lisi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008 16:08:02 Sven Burmeister wrote:

If you are not willing to describe your problems with KDE4

I explained right from the beginning. You have chosen to label my description of my problems as "inexact". Since I do not see "exactly", I do not see how my descriptions can be "exact". Lisi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Sunday 07 December 2008 13:26:12 auxsvr@gmail.com wrote:

...

I think that Lisi shouldn't take what he reads about KDE4 for granted, testing it would be better in my opinion.

I am not taking anything for granted. I have looked at KDE 4. I can't see it for all the moving and transparent things. I certainly wouldn't be able to explore it or "test" it.

Then I ought to apologize for being so insensitive. Were KDE4 desktop effects activated when you used it the first time? If so, I could file a bug report and ask that they should be deactivated by default.

Fortunately for me, it is my doctor and optician who have to help me cope. You seem unable to accept that some of us are to a greater or lesser extent disabled.

You're right, I'm sorry. It never crossed my mind that transparencies could cause such difficulties to others, I completely misunderstood your point the first time.

Lisi

P.S. She, not "he" please.

OK. Kind regards, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

auxsvr@gmail.com schreef:

...

Lisi

P.S. She, not "he" please.

I guessed that already the first time. I think that Lisi is a common German short version of Elisabeth, is that right? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2008-12-07 at 15:21 -0000, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Sunday 07 December 2008 12:07:05 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I have to assume that he has vision problems of some kind.

Yes! Peter is lucky. He would appear not to have.

By the by, I am "she".

Oops! Sorry. I have no way of telling; I may in Spanish, but not often in English :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkk78QYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W30ACfWfC1iqmAALGSFKsMuOsczpo2 NPEAnRtM7B+aU9b2lEZz/BuPuB3A8aQ0 =aCpe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Sonntag, 7. Dezember 2008 13:48:32 schrieb Ken Schneider:

Have the devs forgotten the _visually impaired_ and are now telling them to look elsewhere?

Actually the "bling" aka graphics effects allows to do more for those, e.g. invert, colourise, magnify etc. Ups, sorry. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Tero Pesonen <mlist-suse@tpesonen.net> [12-07-08 12:32]:

This is generally true for free / opensource software.

You must live in a different world.

This is an area where I have always given credit to Microsoft. Of course, MS sells to schools, organisations, etc. where the software must conform to certain standards on usability etc. and hence they pretty much have to make their software work for the disabled.

Speaking of "standards" and "Microsoft" in the same sentence is antithesis.

This is not something the KDE developers need to bother with. They're not selling anything, after all.

And you are not buying it. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Sonntag, 7. Dezember 2008 20:10:46 schrieb Tero Pesonen:

...

...

This is not something the KDE developers need to bother with. They're not selling anything, after all.

And you are not buying it.

I'd buy if I were able to.

There are bountys that you and/or others could use to get features into KDE/any open source project. Suppose there are 100 users that need a feature really bad and each of them donates 10 Euro, that would certainly increase the chances of getting some feature implemented. If schools/governments would stick to this, they could save a lot of money on MS licences. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Sonntag, 7. Dezember 2008 20:10:46 schrieb Tero Pesonen:

...

...

...

This is not something the KDE developers need to bother with. They're not selling anything, after all. And you are not buying it. I'd buy if I were able to.

There are bountys that you and/or others could use to get features into KDE/any open source project. Suppose there are 100 users that need a feature really bad and each of them donates 10 Euro, that would certainly increase the chances of getting some feature implemented. If schools/governments would stick to this, they could save a lot of money on MS licences.

With that, you're "spot on!" Fred -- "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson, 1802 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008 04:55:28 am Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Sunday 07 December 2008 09:49:39 Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Sunday 07 December 2008 02:12:13 am Lisi Reisz wrote:

...

So once I can no longer use 3.x.x

Why not?

Because it will eventually be dropped from all repositories and new hardware might necessitate a more up to date distro.

Hmm. New desktop may necessitate more up to date hardware is usually the problem, but unlike some company that overestimated user pocket and launched their most recent bloatware, KDE4 with additionally loaded KDE3 related libraries is barely bigger than KDE3 alone, so be confident that 4 is slimmer than 3. KDE3 will be dropped, just as KDE2 was dropped, and KDE4 will be dropped one day. It never happens fast, and in a year, or two when it happens much faster affordable hardware will be available.

I have high hopes that someone might start a fork from the main KDE stream and continue to support KDE 3.x.x. Sadly I myself have not got the skills needed. :-(

Fork will not happen. Those that have skills to fork KDE3 will come to the same conclusion that current KDE team came: KDE3 needs serious rewrite to remove obsolete code and seldom used functionality, that could be nice widget, for few that need that, but not part of the core. Although it works fine right now, the future will bring more voice and images in communications, and it will ask for new methods to present them, and possibly interactively use. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008 06:16:31 am Carlos E. R. wrote:

The price of hardware remains more or less the same over the years. I mean, the same hardware gets cheaper, but what you get in the shops is newer, more powerful hardware instead, so that the price is maintained. Roughly.

That is exactly my point. Power for each invested $ is rising which will allow bling to run smoothly on cheap computer. Now you can update computer with MoBo, CPU and RAM for $150. Not that everyone will be able to do it, but most Linux users install OS on their computer, which is sometimes far more delicate than to disconnect and remove old board, and install new one. With help from Internet, like http://www.pcguide.com/ it shouldn't be that hard. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Lisi Reisz schreef:

On Sunday 07 December 2008 09:49:39 Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Sunday 07 December 2008 02:12:13 am Lisi Reisz wrote:

...

So once I can no longer use 3.x.x Why not?

Because it will eventually be dropped from all repositories and new hardware might necessitate a more up to date distro.

I have high hopes that someone might start a fork from the main KDE stream and continue to support KDE 3.x.x. Sadly I myself have not got the skills needed. :-(

Lisi

It is Software Libre and it will never be wiped from the face of the earth. The only thing that will stop eventually, is the development of bugfixes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Sonntag 07 Dezember 2008 09:12:13 schrieb Lisi Reisz:

On Saturday 06 December 2008 16:39:25 Herbert Graeber wrote:

...

Don't let blind you by the bling.

What I meant was, that many people are seeing the bling only and are not seeing the additional value behind that. And to have that bling is neccessary to get new users. If you don't have that, people would think KDE is an oldish conservative desktop and it will be doomed to die sooner or later. But for all others who don't like it it can be turned off.

Unfortunately, that is exactly what happens to me and probably some others on this list. Bling actually blinds me, in that I cannot see properly, and start to feel ill. As a result of this, I loathe all bling and transparency and things that move all over the place and pale grey on paler grey and .....

There is some bling in KDE 3.x.x, but I am given the opportunity to turn it off _before_ I have to look at the desktop. And I can avoid compiz by just not installing it.

If your hardware is not capable, KDE 4.1.3 should turn of all 3D affects automatically. One way to enforce this in the case the hardware would be capable may be turn of hardware 3D effects for the display driver. Another thing you can do is to edit the default user settings in /etc/skel before logging in the first time. I kown this is what kpersonalizer should be for. It is really unfortunate that it hasn't made it into openSUSE 11.1. Maybe we need a "KDE4 for KDE Users" wiki page to help in such things.

From what I have read of KDE 4 I would find it totally unusable, because I would not be able to see to adjust it and work out where things are.

No it's not that bad. You should explore KDE 4.1.3 a little bit and you will find some settings, that will help you to customize KDE4 to your needs. But be warned: You will find some unexpected useful things, too. ;-)

I would love to take your advice and not let the bling blind me. Unfortunately, I do not have that option.

I am sorry that you do not want to give KDE4 a chance. In openSUSE 11.1 it is much better than the poor KDE 4.04 in openSUSE 11.0 (which I used anyway, to help making it better). The bling turns off automatically or can be turnd of by you.

So once I can no longer use 3.x.x I shall have to find another desktop.

KDE4 is not more different from KDE3, than any other desktop.

This is a pity as KDE is streets ahead of anything else I have tried. Sadly, this seems to be about to change. :-(

The only way to help user who must use KDE3 would be to find developers who would continue maintaining it. That's difficult, because that will be a boring task. Despite, what others write, there is no fork neccessary to keep KDE3 alive. KDE3 is still in KDE subversion repository and currently it will still be maintained for some time, so long someone does work on it. I am sure, it's base packages wil stay in the openSUSE distribution, as long as there are apps that need it and the rest will be available from the BuildService. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008 15:43:45 James Knott wrote:

I would seriously question the intelligence of someone who finds "bling" necessary. I put bling in the same category as those spinning wheel covers and other useless trinkets. Perhaps those people would be happier with a lava lamp.

Why do you feel the need to insult everyone who does not share your taste? I would seriously question the intelligence of anyone who does that on a regular basis Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Sunday 07 December 2008 15:43:45 James Knott wrote:

...

I would seriously question the intelligence of someone who finds "bling" necessary. I put bling in the same category as those spinning wheel covers and other useless trinkets. Perhaps those people would be happier with a lava lamp.

Why do you feel the need to insult everyone who does not share your taste?

I would seriously question the intelligence of anyone who does that on a regular basis

Anders

Anyone who places such junk ahead of function or other issues has already insulted themselves. Take a look in the news where you'll often read of someone being robbed for jewelry, iPods, cell phones etc., and ask why they're being robbed for something so worthless. Take a look at the car heading down the road with all that flashy garbage and you'll often seen a car driven by a bad driver etc. If such "bling" is the most important thing in your life, then you've got real problems that have nothing to do with taste. -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

SuSE listers: I've been watching this argument for some time (since the demise of Aaron Kulkis) and have the following long-winded thoughts. First of all, I still use SuSE 9.3 (and a MacBook) which works fine for me, so I've not even seen what KDE 4.~ looks like, and secondly, I don't write code in a production environment (I design laser laboratory equipment for the last 25 years). So much of what I'm about to say is not based on an experience with the new KDE product, it is based on customer's reactions to that product. That said, when my customers come to me and scream that their hardware does not work like they want it to, that they want round knobs instead of square knobs, that they want blue lights instead of green lights, I do not try to "educate" them, I do not insult them, I do not tell them to go file a bug report and then label it as "Invalid", but I go back to my marketing crew to find out if the feelings are universal, and if so, then I go back to the drawing table and give my customers round knobs and blue lights. Now I understand that this is an "Open Source" community, and that there is "choice" and developers like to "innovate" and all of that stuff. But in the long run, I cannot go into my grocery store and trade all of that for a loaf of bread: I need to sell something to trade cash for bread. So if SuSE wants to sell something, it might be helpful to "hear" their customers. -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James Knott wrote:

Herbert Graeber wrote:

...

What I meant was, that many people are seeing the bling only and are not seeing the additional value behind that. And to have that bling is neccessary to get new users.

I would seriously question the intelligence of someone who finds "bling" necessary. I put bling in the same category as those spinning wheel covers and other useless trinkets. Perhaps those people would be happier with a lava lamp.

One of the reasons that so many users stay with XP is that they DON'T like all the "bling" in Vista, AND it's difficult to configure, unlike XP......some things aren't configurable at all. Fred -- "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson, 1802 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 4:24 PM, Fred A. Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com> wrote:

...

One of the reasons that so many users stay with XP is that they DON'T like all the "bling" in Vista, AND it's difficult to configure, unlike XP......some things aren't configurable at all.

Don't forget the resources issues. 2GB for Visat vs 512MB for XP and the fact that XP is 20% faster than Vista doing most of the same things......

That is true! I've had to work on a few Vista boxen, hated it, and most of them are now openSUSE 11.0. ;) Fred -- "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson, 1802 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Herbert Graeber wrote: [snip]

BTW: This bling is optional. Nobody forces you to use it for more than a few minutes and older hardware it deactivates itself. And the option to use another desktop, including KDE3 is there, too.

True....try turning off ALL the "bling" in Vista! Not!! Fred -- "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson, 1802 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Saturday 06 December 2008 16:39:25 Herbert Graeber wrote:

...

Don't let blind you by the bling.

Unfortunately, that is exactly what happens to me and probably some others on this list. Bling actually blinds me, in that I cannot see properly, and start to feel ill. As a result of this, I loathe all bling and transparency and things that move all over the place and pale grey on paler grey and .....

Quite so. There are some web sites I won't go to, because of all the annoying "bling" crap. If someone finds such garbage necessary, I'd question why they need a computer. Incidentally, when I was doing some computer support, a few years ago, I actually had to ask a user to tone down her desktop, so that I could bear to work on it. -- Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org> -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 07 December 2008 18:11:33 Tero Pesonen wrote:

What about the next enterprise desktop (11?)? Will it still come with KDE 3.5? Is it still a long way off?

It's due for release some time in the first quarter of 2009, but no, it won't ship with KDE3. It will probably be available in the build service for it though. Anyone interested in maintaining KDE3 after it is officially killed off can do it in the build service. Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Will Stephenson wrote:

On Friday 05 December 2008 19:39:22 Larry Stotler wrote:

...

But that's what happens when I load KDE4. I get a desktop with a bunch of useless bling that works very different from KDE3. They say first impressions are the most important. Well, some users, who like bling, are probably happy. But a lot of the long time KDE3 users are unhappy because not only is KDE4 full of bling, it doesn't work the way we expect it to work. Then when we point these things out, we are called ranters. I personally don't have the time to go through all the existing bug reports to see if what I feel is missing has been reported. That's why a lot of us bring up these things here. I asked the KDE devs to include KPersonalizer at startup of KDE4 to turn off the bling, but the notes from the meeting stated that it hadn't been ported. However, no mention of whether that was going to happen or not was in the meeting. So, am I supposed to assume that the devs, who are now aware of this, are going to see about taking care of it or do I need to open a bugreport? Communication, which seems to be lacking in some cases.

Regarding KPersonalizer, we haven't had time to port it yet - we had to put our resources into basic desktop functionality from KDE 3 missing in KDE 4 like a working system tray, a taskbar that stacks items, icons on the desktop etc. It's still on the roadmap but hasn't made it for 11.1.

...

And that's because myself and others make it known that we felt it was necessary. And we (at least I) appreciate that. However, what a lot of you guys seem to miss out is that a lot of openSUSE users don't hang out on these lists and they don't make their thought available. Also, a lot of 11.0 users are probably still using KDE4.04 because they don't KNOW that you can add in the build service and update it. So, there's a disconnect not with those of us here, but for those who aren't here. Lack of communication.

I don't know what more we can do about the users who don't participate in the community. They benefit from online updates and will get 4.1.3 when they update to 11.1 - I think that's all we can do for them.

I can tell you what you can do for ALL users - current AND prospective, but especially prospective - is to put KDE3 as the default desktop installation in 11.1 and put the usability challenged KDE4 into the OTHER category. Ciao. -- Be nice to people on your way up - you'll see the same people on your way down. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com> [12-06-08 10:16]:

Come on Basil, that kind of about face just isn't going to happen. I would just prefer to see KDE3 moved back to the main options, but that isn't going to happen either. There are some who do think KDE4 will work for them. I would prefer choice at the least.

And your last sentence infers that you do not have "choice", but you state that KDE3 is available, just not in the location you would prefer. You have choice and your statement is inflammatory and w/o reason. *Have* you submitted a bug report requesting a change in the menu structure? It has been stated repeatedly in this forum that *that* is the method to have your desires noticed and considered, *not* negative comments on this mail list. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat December 6 2008 10:14:32 am Larry Stotler wrote:

On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 4:57 AM, Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:

...

I can tell you what you can do for ALL users - current AND prospective, but especially prospective - is to put KDE3 as the default desktop installation in 11.1 and put the usability challenged KDE4 into the OTHER category.

Come on Basil, that kind of about face just isn't going to happen. I would just prefer to see KDE3 moved back to the main options, but that isn't going to happen either. There are some who do think KDE4 will work for them. I would prefer choice at the least.

Agreed Larry, KDE4 is significantly improved since the fiasco of 11.0GM, but it still isn't ready for PRIME TIME IMO because of the developers admitted shortcomings that they are working on to implement. What bothers me is the previous announcement by openSuSE that 11.1 is the LAST version to even offer 3.5.x of KDE and I severely feel the likelyhood that if it is dropped, even under the moniker of 'Other' as in 11.1. Until 4.x of KDE IS (by Will Stephenson's own admisson) brought up to parity with 3.5.x with or without the 'bling', I feel that openSuSE should continue offering 3.5.x as it is now being done in 11.1 and NOT REMOVE it from the distro. They can conduct a poll of distro users and simply ask: Is 4.x now functional enough to free up the space in the distro by not having to offer 3.5.x also?.... If not, what features do you consider 'show stoppers' that remain? If this is not done, I truly feel that a huge number of people that are not technically literate with Linux or openSuSE will be unable to install 3.5.x of KDE not because it is unavailable anywhere, but because it is unavailable in a way not requiring a PhD to install, eg, using Yast and even if Yast can somehow install it, the underlying KDE4 apps will get in the way, be nearly impossible to remove, or otherwise prevent it from being used effectively. We see this right now with many KDE apps forcing loading of GNOME libraries and I expect vise-versa, and when I try to use KDE3.5.10 appletts for which there do exist v4.x versions (because I like the 3.5.x version better), it is sometimes dammed near impossible to get the earlier version installed. Semi or Illiterate users (probably the majority of Windoze imports) will simply not be able to do this and will assume this is how Linux does it and it's in the 'too hard pile' because they can't just download a 'install.exe' onto their desktop (after paying 49.95 or so for it) and clicking it). The concept of adding some special repository for 'Historical archivial copies of outdated KDE versions) to get a desktop that 'just works', then becoming an 'administrator' (root), launching Yast, figuring out what version of the ancient KDE software is the one that makes their machine work without all the 'bling' and 'just works' like their old fashioned 65 year old friends machines do, will simply elude them and they will get out their Windoze recovery disks and return to the world of paying for everything in mindless bliss. Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 06 December 2008 09:14:32 am Larry Stotler wrote:

Come on Basil, that kind of about face just isn't going to happen.  I would just prefer to see KDE3 moved back to the main options, but that isn't going to happen either.  There are some who do think KDE4 will work for them.  I would prefer choice at the least.

What makes option in main installation selection menu better then one in Other section? The main section is what is recommended. GNOME for alphabetical reasons and KDE4 as a future desktop =:-) IMHO, who wants KDE3 will find it. It is intersting that people using bleeding edge software, which is openSUSE, show so much reluctance to accept opportunity to influence new software development. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Sonntag 07 Dezember 2008 02:06:54 schrieb Larry Stotler:

On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Rajko M. <rmatov101@charter.net> wrote:

...

What makes option in main installation selection menu better then one in Other section?

Because many users don't ever look in the "others" section. I may not have if I didn't know that KDE3 would be there.

Why shall new users install a old Desktop wich will fade away over the next - say - two years. And long time users, that stick to KDE3 will find, if they need it. Where is the problem?

...

The main section is what is recommended. GNOME for alphabetical reasons and KDE4 as a future desktop =:-)

11.0's should have been used now. IF KDE4 is fully done to whatever extent whoever feels it is ready, then I would say do the change. I don't agree with it in 11.1, but it's not my decision, and I was voted down.

KDE4 - like KDE3 - will never be full done. Ther will always someting to be added...

...

IMHO, who wants KDE3 will find it.

perhaps

...

It is intersting that people using bleeding edge software, which is openSUSE, show so much reluctance to accept opportunity to influence new software development.

The only bleeding ege I use is the kernel for hardware and Firefox. And, honestly, if I still had good copies of 10.2 I could be just as fine with that. KDE4 is where it gets bleeding edge. I don't use openoffice, mon, songbird, or whatever. Just KOffice, Firefox, and MPlayer. I stick with SuSE for Yast more than anything else other than the comprehensive set of packages. Dependencies are what such(installing nokia tools when I dont' have a nokia and wouldn't want one, and so on).

Interesting, your major apps aren't KDE apps. So you can use every desktop, you wan't without a problem. Even a non-linux one. Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 4:57 AM, Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:

...

I can tell you what you can do for ALL users - current AND prospective, but especially prospective - is to put KDE3 as the default desktop installation in 11.1 and put the usability challenged KDE4 into the OTHER category.

Come on Basil, that kind of about face just isn't going to happen. I would just prefer to see KDE3 moved back to the main options, but that isn't going to happen either. There are some who do think KDE4 will work for them. I would prefer choice at the least.

Ce? You misread what I wrote. Read it again :-) . Ciao. -- Be nice to people on your way up - you'll see the same people on your way down. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday, 2008-12-06 at 10:37 +0100, Will Stephenson wrote: ...

I don't know what more we can do about the users who don't participate in the community. They benefit from online updates and will get 4.1.3 when they update to 11.1 - I think that's all we can do for them.

Explaining what you are doing, like this post of yours, is a good thing. Thanks! - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkk6fncACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WnEwCcCckwlRhZC3jdYJZLljwEH10u ypAAoI731eLuRC8ixdnQEUIYGWj/TpaN =wLqr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:21 PM, John E. Perry <j.e.perry@cox.net> wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Saturday, 2008-12-06 at 10:37 +0100, Will Stephenson wrote:

...

...

I don't know what more we can do about the users who don't participate in the community. They benefit from online updates and will get 4.1.3 when they update to 11.1 - I think that's all we can do for them.

Explaining what you are doing, like this post of yours, is a good thing. Thanks!

Yes. I know you've been here several times, sometimes getting snotty responses from your less rational critics, but if you and your colleagues could comment more often, even briefly, those of us who have longer memories wouldn't have to try so hard to defend you :-).

Ok, now I am kinda confused about this one........ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Monday, 2008-12-08 at 18:21 -0500, John E. Perry wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Saturday, 2008-12-06 at 10:37 +0100, Will Stephenson wrote:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

...

...

...

...longer memories wouldn't have to try so hard to defend you :-).

You should clarify who you meant by "you" above. It can't be me, I know, but you replied to a post of mine...

Yeah, I sloppily deleted Will's message, then decided to add my voice to yours, thinking foolishly that by including Will's comment inside yours, I'd be making myself clear. Sorry, Carlos. jp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 4:37 AM, Will Stephenson <wstephenson@suse.de> wrote:

Regarding KPersonalizer, we haven't had time to port it yet - we had to put our resources into basic desktop functionality from KDE 3 missing in KDE 4 like a working system tray, a taskbar that stacks items, icons on the desktop etc. It's still on the roadmap but hasn't made it for 11.1.

And I thank you guys for adding that. But, did no one really think that there would not be people asking to turn off the new features? I missed out on being in the community for a year due to problems in my life. If I had been around I would have tried to express my point of view earlier.

I don't know what more we can do about the users who don't participate in the community. They benefit from online updates and will get 4.1.3 when they update to 11.1 - I think that's all we can do for them.

Yes, but consider how many have been turned off from openSUSE because they tried KDE4 because it was more promiently offered? These peopl just decided they liked it or didn't, and the ones who didn't moved on. We lost them is one way you can say it. Sure, we gained some who like KDE4, but are we looking to get more interested, or are we trying to have a static of loss/gain? To be honest, the KDE4 in 11.0 as is was not up to the standards that I and many others expected from openSUSE. I just happen to be one of the few who have said that. Sure, KDE4 has improved with the build service and 11.1, but IMO, it was not ready for prime-time. Fedora released 9 with only KDE4, and I saw a lot of people move away from Fedora because their KDE4 was nowhere near as good as ours. I've repeatedly said that I'm not against KDE4. I just can't honestly say that I can use it as productively as KDE3 and I can't recommend it as it is even now. I will see how 11.1 final goes, but I have yet to see a compelling reason to use it, especially on older hardware. That's just my opinion. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:30 AM, Amedee Van Gasse <amedee@amedee.be> wrote:

Larry Stotler schreef:

...

That's why a lot of us bring up these things here.

You don't have time to file a bug report but you have th time to write your very long email? I'm afraid that your priorities are wrong.

I don't have time to start on a new mailing list, go through the last few months of archives to ensure that I don't get bashed for asking things that have already been covered or decided, etc. I barely have enough time to keep up with the 4 lists on openSUSE I am already subscribed to.

...

However, what a lot of you guys seem to miss out is that a lot of openSUSE users don't hang out on these lists and they don't make their thought available.

Perhaps they should. This is Software Libre. It is your moral duty to share. That means not only sharing the software, but also sharing your ideas about what is wrong.

We know that, but a lot of new Linux users got it from a magazine or from a friend just to test it out. I started using SuSE in 1999, but didn't actually become a part of these lists till 2005 IIRC. Of course, I didn't have a high speed internet connection until 2004. I always bought my upgrades when I could actually find them. I would email SuSE to get the US ISBN number, and sometimes they would be able to get it back to me. The only way I had to get it was usually at a bookstore. Sometimes I could get install CDs from magazines.

...

Also, a lot of 11.0 users are probably still using KDE4.04 because they don't KNOW that you can add in the build service and update it.

Indeed, I didn't know that. Going to try that right now, and if it b0rks my box well the so be it ;-)

Good luck. You at least proved my point. While so many are saying that the missing features have been added or the bugs fixed, that may NOT be the case for many.

KDE4 in 11.1 is an OpenSuse decision, not a KDE decision. In other words, "you guys" is not always the same people. As far as I can tell, the decision to include KDE4 as default desktop in 11.1 *is* a valid point of discussion for an opensuse mailing list. All other arguments in this thread are white noise, sorry.

Actually, the factory list is probably more appropriate than this one. That's where a lot of the work to get KDE4 working has been done.

My 2 cents.

Glad to have you share it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:

Bug reporting on opensuse is not made on a mail list: its done via Bugzilla.

Yes, but it is more useful to post what you have experienced before opening a bug report and having it closed as a duplicate bug. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Will Stephenson wrote: [snip]

When I read the rest of this thread, I saw unfounded conjecture and a tendency to assume that KDE and openSUSE don't care about long term, loyal users' needs. I don't really understand why. We are aware of KDE 4's current shortcomings, and we've tried harder than any other distro to make sure that KDE 3 remains a viable alternative while we work to resolve them. The sky isn't falling!

'Glad to hear that. ;) PART of the problem is that there have been some who've given us snotty responses to criticisms, which is GOING to happen when one takes something as polished as KDE 3.5, replace it with a new version that is radically different and sorely lacking, and further tell us we have to live with. NONE of use are that hard to get along with, well maybe Basil is the exception :), IF someone takes the time to be upfront with us as to EXACTLY what's going on, instead of terse, sometimes snotty responses. You are the first one who has made the point that 3.5 functionality is really being worked on, putting it into 4.*. This is what we have been asking for. IMHO, any distro. that isn't primarily a 3.5* distro. while working on 4.* is going to loose support quickly! Fortunately, openSUSE will ship and support 3.5.10 with 11.1. If it didn't, I'd probably change to another distro. for myself and all clients. IF the EXTREMELY BAD performance of the Intel video driver (including i965) isn't fixed by the release of 11.1, I won't be using it for clients either on a LOT of boxen....laptops that have that or other Intel chipset. Wifi is still a problem for Intel and other chipsets as well. Fred -- "Politicians and diapers need to be changed regularly -- and for the same reason." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 05 December 2008 03:49:42 pm Fred A. Miller wrote:

IMHO, any distro. that isn't primarily a 3.5* distro. while working on 4.* is going to loose support quickly!

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=kubuntu I see Kubuntu is loosing ;-) We can argue long, but first few distros on Distrowatch use GNOME desktop, and used it since ever. I just installed it and bling (compiz) works fine, unlike with KDE, and I've heard few wows when desktop change included rotating cube. People like bling, specially if it works right. Though, magic word is: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/X11:/XGL/openSUSE_Factory/ Right now Factory is changing very little, so it can be used for this particular set of packages. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* John E. Perry <j.e.perry@cox.net> [12-05-08 19:34]:

Fred and company have steadfastly ignored these people and others of us who have repeatedly reminded them of this. The only reasonable conclusion is that they are determined to stick to whining, and to refuse to participate in restoring the useful and developing the new.

...

Think about it... then write bug reports!

Which, again, has been advised repeatedly, and steadfastly ignored. Why feed the trolls any more?

But, Fred is *not* a troll, merely stubborn. Almost as much as I :^). Sooner or later, he *will* contribute. He just hasn't recognized the error in his ways..... Others I cannot, nor would I speak for. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

No, we want to see KDE4 work as advertised which it still has a ways to go. To this point, I have yet to see any compelling reason for myself to switch to KDE4. There are a lot who agree and some who disagree and fell KDE4 is ready. It's called a difference of opinion. So, since our view differs from yours, I guess that makes us wrong?

Larry, if you'll look back in the archives, you'll see that I have specifically praised your particular efforts in this regard. The above comment was specifically made in regard to people who have persisted in complaining without making the least effort either to contribute, or to understand what is going on.

...

Which, again, has been advised repeatedly, and steadfastly ignored. Why feed the trolls any more?

And this is where the problems come in. I don't call people names and act childish. However, I've been called names, and I honestly don't

Well, if you feel I've been lumping you in with the mindless naysayers in spite of my posts, I don't know how to make you happy. Are you maybe being hypersensitive?

appreciate it. What gives you the right to criticize me, who has supported SuSE for almost 10 years by paying $$ for it over the years and who now tries to give back as being a part of this community? This is a huge change from how SuSE was developed just a few years ago. Everyone now has a voice. If we don't use it, then we get whatever is decided for us. It's like those who don't vote. IMO, they don't deserve to bitch about the outcome.

As one of those who doesn't contribute, but also doesn't snipe at the developers, I might take offense at what you're saying here. Do you think that would be right? Yes, I've paid for suse. Yes, I've stuck with 3.5.9. Yes I occasionally check in to my kde4 account (thanks for that tip, Carlos), and when kde4 and I get to the point that I can use it pretty easily, I'll switch over completely. In the meantime, I'll keep my mouth shut (figuratively) except to defend the people who are truly contributing. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com> [12-08-08 19:38]: ...

It's just frustrating to have everyone try to convince me that KDE4 is ready for me. It's not, and hopefully it will be in time. However, KDE4 has it's bad points, and the driver issues are pretty bad ones in my opinion. The Intel driver just seems to be broken, but the nVidia or ATI ones shouldn't have to be re-written just for KDE4 unless there was something broken about them and KDE3 to begin with. Has anyone tried the new drivers with KDE3 on 11.1?

And now we have reached the main point. No one wants to *convince* you that KDE4 is "ready" for you. Use what you wish out of what is available for you and KDE3 is being provided in the upcoming 11.1 issue. And, be aware that KDE3 will *not* be included in the following issues, but *will* be available via other avenues and, to exercise *your* choice, *you* will have to access those "other avenues". Do not use KDE4 (or do). No one here is pushing you to make a decision either way. Make your own choice and be happy and let this retoric about being pushed/forced/cajoled into using KDE4 die! -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Fred A. Miller <fmiller@lightlink.com> wrote:

...

Patrick, I'll say it one more time, as many others have already. We assume that the current coders for KDE 4.* are mostly those who coded KDE 3.5. If so, the configuration and fuctionality of KDE 3.5 is well known. When we say we want all of that in KDE 4.*, it should be rather simple to understand what we are requesting.

Fred, since you keep participating in discussions about the missing features in KDE4, I have to assume this is topic that you have some interest in seeing resolved. As you say, this topic has come up repeatedly, and the request for bug reports specifying missing features does so as well.

MOST of what I wanted is now in 4.1.*. Once I get some more time to do so, I'll try to really "dig" in 4.1 and see what else is missing that is a "must have." Right now, the most pressing issue isn't with KDE but 11.1 in that the support for Intel i965 and other Intel video chipsets is "the pits!!" There is marginal 3D, but performance is in the toilet. So much so, that it's a no go for a lot of my clients, as well as new ones. I have a bid waiting for me to complete it and I can't yet. The specs. are for a "current" release AFTER 1/1/09. I requested specs. on ALL hardware (I've been down this path more than once in the past...;) ) and sure 'nough, almost all the laptops have the Intel video chips in question....Dell and others are still using them.

Since you obviously have the time and interest for this discussion, it seems to me it'd be quite productive to go ahead and file the bug reports that detail the missing functionality.

Time?! NOT now, I don't! But, soon I'll be taking a break and will.

Also, I wouldn't assume that the current coders of KDE 4 are "mostly those who coded KDE 3.5" -- perhaps they are, but as people tend to rotate in and out of projects, it's entirely possible that the people who coded the features you speak of are not with the project any longer.

I said it was an assumption....no way of knowing. Fred -- "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson, 1802 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Mike wrote:

Yea, it's the KDE4 way, or no way.

Actually, it's the kde4 way, or any of a dozen or so other ways. This is linux, after all. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:08 AM, Amedee Van Gasse <amedee@amedee.be> wrote:

Meanwhile, on the mailing lists of Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva etc... we are seeing the same kind of discussions all over again. Every argument is being duplicated and repeated, and none of it flows back to where it should: the KDE project. What a terrible waste of time and energy!

Some are of the opinion that KDE4 was a huge waste of time and effort. I don't see it that way, but I need to consider whether KDE4 is actually a compelling reason to switch, and so far, the "new" features don't interest me, and the lack of features has been an issue. Slow speed and lack of stability have also impacted that. I haven't updated to the current build service, so I can't say whether things have improved, but I hear they have. I will reserve judgment until I have a chance to test 11.1 next weekend. I've download several betas and the RC, and haven't had the time to really do anything with any of them even when I did actually manage to finish an install..... One of my issues is that I have to relearn how to do simple things because there is this "new & better" way of doing things. KDE4 is a huge change, and anyone who thought that there wouldn't be resistance was kidding themselves. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Phil Savoie schrieb:

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

...

Meanwhile, on the mailing lists of Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva etc... we are seeing the same kind of discussions all over again. Every argument is being duplicated and repeated, and none of it flows back to where it should: the KDE project. What a terrible waste of time and energy! Some are of the opinion that KDE4 was a huge waste of time and effort. I don't see it that way, but I need to consider whether KDE4 is actually a compelling reason to switch, and so far, the "new" features don't interest me, and the lack of features has been an issue. Slow speed and lack of stability have also impacted that. I haven't updated to the current build service, so I can't say whether things have improved, but I hear they have. I will reserve judgment until I have a chance to test 11.1 next weekend. I've download several betas and the RC, and haven't had the time to really do anything with any of

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:08 AM, Amedee Van Gasse <amedee@amedee.be> wrote: them even when I did actually manage to finish an install.....

One of my issues is that I have to relearn how to do simple things because there is this "new & better" way of doing things. KDE4 is a huge change, and anyone who thought that there wouldn't be resistance was kidding themselves.

Larry,

Well said. Not to start any flame wars, but I shake my head as to why they went the route of alpha/beta for kde in a very polished distro is beyond me. Nothing like relearning how to do simple things to brighten up your day. This is the biggest reason why I am staying put with 11 with the previous working kde.

I don't mind change, but God in Heaven, let's wait until it works first shall we? I sure hope the PHB's at opensuse has heard the backlash and have stopped this notion of pushing unfinished and broken crap down the pipe all for the sake of change.

That's easy to understand. There are at least as many users who expect to get KDE4, as complaining here about going this way. I think, even *much* more than that, but that's difficult to guess, because these users are much more silent, because they will get what they expect. Second, there is the pressure from other distributions going this way. Third, knowing that KDE3 development has stopped, it is more attractive to invest in the new technology than in old one and work on making KDE4 as polished as KDE3. And there is significant progress since openSUSE 11.0, isn't it? Forth, the KDE4 project needs the pressure from major distributions, to make it more polished and usable for KDE3 upstream. KDE4 needs real users to become better. And the KDE developers known that, because that's the reason, why KDE 4.0 has been released in such an incomplete state. For me KDE4 is already better in most areas, but I accept that not everybody feels the same... Herbert -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon December 8 2008 10:05:28 am Herbert Graeber wrote:

Phil Savoie schrieb:

...

Larry Stotler wrote:

...

...

Meanwhile, on the mailing lists of Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva etc... we are seeing the same kind of discussions all over again. Every argument is being duplicated and repeated, and none of it flows back to where it should: the KDE project. What a terrible waste of time and energy! Some are of the opinion that KDE4 was a huge waste of time and effort. I don't see it that way, but I need to consider whether KDE4 is actually a compelling reason to switch, and so far, the "new" features don't interest me, and the lack of features has been an issue. Slow speed and lack of stability have also impacted that. I haven't updated to the current build service, so I can't say whether things have improved, but I hear they have. I will reserve judgment until I have a chance to test 11.1 next weekend. I've download several betas and the RC, and haven't had the time to really do anything with any of

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 4:08 AM, Amedee Van Gasse <amedee@amedee.be> wrote: them even when I did actually manage to finish an install.....

One of my issues is that I have to relearn how to do simple things because there is this "new & better" way of doing things. KDE4 is a huge change, and anyone who thought that there wouldn't be resistance was kidding themselves.

Larry,

Well said. Not to start any flame wars, but I shake my head as to why they went the route of alpha/beta for kde in a very polished distro is beyond me. Nothing like relearning how to do simple things to brighten up your day. This is the biggest reason why I am staying put with 11 with the previous working kde.

I don't mind change, but God in Heaven, let's wait until it works first shall we? I sure hope the PHB's at opensuse has heard the backlash and have stopped this notion of pushing unfinished and broken crap down the pipe all for the sake of change.

That's easy to understand. There are at least as many users who expect to get KDE4, as complaining here about going this way. I think, even *much* more than that, but that's difficult to guess, because these users are much more silent, because they will get what they expect.

Second, there is the pressure from other distributions going this way.

Third, knowing that KDE3 development has stopped, it is more attractive to invest in the new technology than in old one and work on making KDE4 as polished as KDE3. And there is significant progress since openSUSE 11.0, isn't it?

Forth, the KDE4 project needs the pressure from major distributions, to make it more polished and usable for KDE3 upstream. KDE4 needs real users to become better. And the KDE developers known that, because that's the reason, why KDE 4.0 has been released in such an incomplete state.

For me KDE4 is already better in most areas, but I accept that not everybody feels the same...

Herbert

Most of the time, I do a lot of 'snipping' to reduce the length of a quoted message, however, this short series of messages from both sides of the KDE3/4 camps lucidly discusses some of the main issues and I'd like to add my $.02 worth and I know "many" people that do not have or use modern 'threaded' mail readers so I feel the context of my statement is somewhat pertenant. Most of the 'flames' have been regarding 'bling' or 'functionality' or a totally stupid discussion about statistics involving the word(s) "many" or "most" or "xth". I think that upon reading the past several months posts in this and other lists, too many posters have missed the whole point. On one side, the KDE4 camp seems to say it is plenty good enough, is pretty and represents the future. On the other, most of the KDE3 camp seems to say that it wasn't/isn't ready for prime time because it *appears* that form rather than function is the driving force and that KDE3 wasn't broken enough to throw out. It is my opinion that both sides seem to be 'attacking' or 'defending' the KDE devs. I believe the KDE devs made a rational decision to produce a new product that eventually would be able to take the place of KDE3 as the premier desktop of choice for (here's that word again) "many", if not "most" Linux users (across many distros). I applaud them for taking on such a project and I see great progress, albeit for me at least, it still isn't quite ready to be my prime desktop over v3.5.10, but it is improving. No, the problem as I see it was and is not the KDE devs, not the testers, not the fact that early releases were (IMO) of 'alpha' quality, but that too many DISTROS, including our own openSuSE.org, PREMATURELY decided to push v4.x in preference to v3.x of KDE for their distros. Some, like (I believe it is) Ubuntu seem to pulling away from KDE entirely now as a result. OpenSuSE at least after much gnashing of teeth, put (rather, left) v3.5.x in the distro, albeit increasingly hidden and obtuse regarding where to find it and how to ensure a 'pure' version of the older version of KDE if that was the user's choice. Some other distros apparently didn't even do that much. So the problem, I feel, really boils down to the decision makers in the various distros jumping on a 'bigger numerical version' without regard to the fact that even at the time of the release of v4.0 by KDE, it was admitted that it was a work in progress and features were being added to increase it's functionality at a rapid pace. The DISTRO decision makers mistake, IMO, was to ignore a basic step: RESEARCH. In other words, simple things like "is it really ready?", "What do our users think?" "How should we offer it?" and a myriad of other pertenant questions needed to be explored, especially the 2nd question. Even if the answer to the first question was "No, it isn't really ready", it still could have been offered as a cutting edge alpha, optional, desktop with encouragement to try it out and provide feedback. The distros for the most part seemed to just choose to make it the primary choice, or the first choice, or the only choice in some cases. This to me is where the fault lies, not with the KDE devs, but with the distro decision makers. I personally enjoy testing KDE4 and other new projects EVEN THOUGH I DON"T YET USE IT for my production machines because of what to me are shortcomings that preclude that promotion. I fervantly hope for the eventual success of KDE4, as I also fervantly hope that the distros, especially openSuSE will continue to provide KDE3 in ALL releases until they have taken a proper poll of their userbase and asked them the questions they should have asked before SuSE 11.0 was even released, much less 11.1 and 11.2 which they summarily stated would NOT have KDE3 support in the distro. Some packages may be left out due to legal constraints, such as those with certain multimedia packages, but to the best of my knowledge, no such constraints exist for KDE3.x, only a preconcieved notion that KDE4 would be 'ready' and KDE3 would be ancient history and not needed by their userbase. Maybe their crystal ball is better than mine, but with such a short time between releases of openSuSE and the complexity of KDE, I fail to see how they can be so adamant about killing KDE3 which despite a few warts and freckles, works quite well and is still used by enough people to spark numerous flame wars in numerous mailing lists on more than one distro. Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2008-12-08 at 10:50 -0500, Larry Stotler wrote:

I really think that they should move off the december release. too many things happening in December.

That will not happen. It takes a really major problem to postpone an announced release. If 11.1 is not good enough for you, simply wait some months, or skip it entirely. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkk9RYIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XDEACcC+re4YVsmHLLvlyTTReX0Db1 Q9IAnjtLxVIOnyTAa8q3xuLS2h5nKQVV =9Ewn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:32 AM, Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:

...

...

I really think that they should move off the december release. too many things happening in December.

That will not happen. It takes a really major problem to postpone an announced release. If 11.1 is not good enough for you, simply wait some months, or skip it entirely.

I was more talking about the next time. If the next release, 11.2, is moved to an 8 month, then the following would be in Feb instead. I realize that the devs probably would like to have some time off over the holidays, but they still have to make the 6 month cycle after. Honestly, I can't say I agree that the 11.1/SLE 11.0 cycle should have only been 6 months(although SLE did have 11.0 as a base). It would have made more sense to me to have such an important upgrade to have a longer cycle. Further, it amazes me that the devs feel that KDE4 will be ready for SLE and I'm going to be interested to see the uptake and or skipping and or removal of SLE over this. I'm sure Novell has an idea of how this will work out, but I know a lot of businesses and they don't want the switch to Vista, not just because of the hardware, but because of the differences. They moan everytime that Office is "upgraded" due to issues and retraining.

By SLE are you talking about SLES or SLED or both. SLES could come out with no desktop at all many people would not complain. Personally, I run my servers CLI only (init 3) and ssh into them and launch the few gui apps I need (things like YAST) back onto my local screen. I doubt the local GUI has much if any impact on that. SLED may be another matter. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2008-12-08 at 11:32 -0500, Larry Stotler wrote:

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...

...

I really think that they should move off the december release. too many things happening in December.

That will not happen. It takes a really major problem to postpone an announced release. If 11.1 is not good enough for you, simply wait some months, or skip it entirely.

I was more talking about the next time. If the next release, 11.2, is moved to an 8 month, then the following would be in Feb instead. I

It does not need to be "moved", because the schedule was decided long ago to be 6 months for 11.1 and 8 for 11.2 >:-) And no, I have no idea why, I don't work there nor am privy to their decisions. It was commented and must be posted somewhere. The standard schedule is 8 months, and this time they made and exception perhaps to be in time for the Christmas season - and I can't find fault with that, Novell is a business and has a right to try make some money out of it, don't you think? :-) ...

Further, it amazes me that the devs feel that KDE4 will be ready for SLE and I'm going to be interested to see the uptake and or skipping and or removal of SLE over this.

Yes, that's curious. I'm sure that has been a hard decision and much debated internally. They have the service packs, though. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkk9it8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VlRACfVPmMxPwI7HBoBYXxNj8mWriT 8YkAoIm4ZTUxn8P/G+euk5m2h+WB8yGo =ktVZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

G T Smith wrote:

I am mainly underwhelmed by KDE4 because it really is a rehash of some 20 year old ideas. There is no doubting the technical skill and commitment of the KDE team in the implementation, but there is an underlying dressing up of yesterdays mutton as todays lamb in KDE4 (and Vista for that matter)... The Media orientated approach may be appropriate for the gadget generation when relative affluence was the norm, but may not fit the current situation. What are really needed are some new ideas...

Frankly, I'm not seeing any significant "Media Orientated Approach" in KDE4, at least not more so than KDE3. (I will, point out I use K4 in Kubuntu, which is a lot more media friendly than Novell). But as for your other point, K4 being a "rehash of 20 year old Ideas", I'd be interested in two things: 1) What do you see in the current crop of desktops that reminds you of 1988. (Windows version 2 vintage), and which is in need of change? 2) What, other than the aforementioned multi-media, do we do on computers today that we did not do 10, 15, or 20 years ago that requires something other than a rehash? Generally something that works (such as the basic concept of different applications running in "windows" on a desktop) tend to hang around until it no longer works well, or some new invention arrives that allows a different approach. I've not seen much of either. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 09 December 2008 03:19:08 pm Rodney Baker wrote:

This was great if you had specific documents or files that you worked with on a regular basis e.g. a spreadsheet, database, text files, word processor documents etc. Rather than finding and opening each file or application individually, you just opened the workspace folder and everything in it opened up to where you left of last time you used them.

If you leave documents in KDE applications opened, they will be opened next time you start computer. If it is not that way on your computer, then it can be set in: Personal Settings > KDE Components > Session Manager. Settings is "Restore previous session". For KDE4 it is in: Personal Settings > Advanced Tab > Session Manager. The only exemption is Konsole. It will open tabs, but not documents in appropriate applications. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 10 December 2008 04:35:12 Rodney Baker wrote:

On Wednesday 10 December 2008 11:13:08 Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Tuesday 09 December 2008 03:19:08 pm Rodney Baker wrote:

...

This was great if you had specific documents or files that you worked with on a regular basis e.g. a spreadsheet, database, text files, word processor documents etc. Rather than finding and opening each file or application individually, you just opened the workspace folder and everything in it opened up to where you left of last time you used them.

If you leave documents in KDE applications opened, they will be opened next time you start computer.

Yes, but that is only part of the functionality that workspace folders provided.

Lets say, for instance, that I have 3 specific tasks to do, each of which has a specific and unique set of applications and documents associated with it.

I could create a workspace folder for each task. When I open the folder, the documents and applications associated with that folder open up in the correct state. When I close the folder, the applications and documents close down again, ready for next time I open the folder. I could then move onto the next task in the next workspace folder etc.

Now, I could so this by having multiple different logons for different tasks and remembering each session, but that would mean logging on and off several times. The workspace folders were a much more elegant way of achieving the same thing.

Anyway, no point in reminiscing. Maybe I'll raise an enhancement suggestion when I get a moment or three to put it into developer-friendly terms ;-).

This 'pipe dream' is already part of KDE 4's infrastructure. Nepomuk, a close second for the most obscurely named Pillar of KDE, is a system for the storage and querying of semantic relations. It is a specialised database and set of APIs for accessing that data. One use of it is to implement a task-oriented view of your data that crosses the vertical type-oriented silos it currently sits in. For each of your tasks you could <define a project> in Nepomuk[1], then specify a set of files and 'objects'[2] 'in Nepomuk' as being part of that project; for example, an email from a customer defining the requirements, some photos of whiteboards exploring a solution, <a Contact representing the customer>, and a Kate session (comprising 5 files). You would put this task on the desktop by (broadly) adding a Folder View applet there pointing at the URL "nepomuksearch://<projects/tenders/JonesM>". Then you get icons for all these in that folder, and can open individual items, or the whole lot from the Folder View, or even <right click the Contact and IM him>. Bits in <> are stuff that is currently not yet implemented. The hard and mostly invisible work in KDE 4 has been reorganising what we already had so that new things are possible without onerous overhead, and working on basic things like the nepomuk APIs and storage systems, besides working on the bling. [1] There is not yet a 'KDE Project Management Tool' to do this, but the relations can be added to the store using the APIs, and specific apps are starting to use them, eg digikam. [2] Things that don't, in the current KDE implementation at least, have a physical presence on the filesystem like a group of contacts or a web browsing session. Coming back to the example, most of it can be done with KDE trunk now. The usable user interfaces, for example, a way to define projects, and broad support for projects in applications (the KDE file dialog, for example) is still to be done. You can have a Folder View showing a nepomuk search, and you can have desktops dedicated to particular tasks, with their own constellations of Folder Views and other applets representing the task's state. There is an activity switcher applet to change your context. The Kate session support is mature, even if the session files always live in .kde4/share/apps/kate/sessions and must be accessed on Kate startup or via the Sessions menu. Generally though, it's not coherently integrated yet. I expect that this will blossom in KDE 4.3. Of course, this could be implemented using today's filesystem; task-specific folders, jpegs, saved copies of emails, vcards, another folder for the text documents. I know a prominent YaST developer who manages a large photo collection in this way using symlinks and scripts. It gets messy (updating links, out of date copies) quickly when objects are in more than one task, or there is no physical file you can place in a folder. Will

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Andersen wrote:

G T Smith wrote:

...

I am mainly underwhelmed by KDE4 because it really is a rehash of some 20 year old ideas. There is no doubting the technical skill and commitment of the KDE team in the implementation, but there is an underlying dressing up of yesterdays mutton as todays lamb in KDE4 (and Vista for that matter)... The Media orientated approach may be appropriate for the gadget generation when relative affluence was the norm, but may not fit the current situation. What are really needed are some new ideas...

Frankly, I'm not seeing any significant "Media Orientated Approach" in KDE4, at least not more so than KDE3. (I will, point out I use K4 in Kubuntu, which is a lot more media friendly than Novell).

It is the argument being raised by some in the "discussion" for KDE4 being the future desktop. That the new desktop should be better at handling multi-media requirements. (Though to be honest what the desktop has to do with it this context really puzzles me).

But as for your other point, K4 being a "rehash of 20 year old Ideas", I'd be interested in two things:

1) What do you see in the current crop of desktops that reminds you of 1988. (Windows version 2 vintage), and which is in need of change?

2) What, other than the aforementioned multi-media, do we do on computers today that we did not do 10, 15, or 20 years ago that requires something other than a rehash?

More thinking in terms of where it all started out. The concept of an essentially two (and a half) dimensional visual representation with a simple tree like dialogue. All that is happening is revamp of this underlying principle. While one of the programmers favourite data structures is the tree, this is not a particularly natural conceptual structure for many. It is is very powerful tool in algorithmic processes, it is not quite as effective in a heuristic or pattern matching context.(BTW in the intel small systems world there was also GEM, and at least one other environment of which the name escapes me). For instance relational database concepts have been around for some time for categorising data and while it makes sense to organise computing executable structures in trees, why are we still organising our documents in this manner?[1] The perceived need for indexing systems such as beagle must in part come from the recognition that the current way of doing things is not entirely effective as an organisational mechanism. If we change the way personal documentation is perceived as been organized this implies a change in how that documentation is accessed, i.e at the desktop. Rather than in individual applications.

Generally something that works (such as the basic concept of different applications running in "windows" on a desktop) tend to hang around until it no longer works well, or some new invention arrives that allows a different approach.

I've not seen much of either.

I think the underlying problem is in many contexts and for many (non-IT) people it does not really work that well, it is something many are familiar with but more as a known barrier than a real aid. It is less of a barrier than the command line but still a barrier nonetheless. The difficulty is that many at the technical end do not really see this as an issue with the technology more an issue with the people using the technology. Maybe the cart is being put in front of the horse here, and we should be looking at presentation mechanisms that people are more comfortable with? Curiously, where some innovation may be creeping in is on devices that do not have the screen real estate to do a full blown windowing system.... [1] I am well aware that many earlier big irons did organise data in this manner. - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkk/nKoACgkQasN0sSnLmgKMnQCgotfNUv4DmllVK/D7q+DrWFB5 s+EAoOuxyZRoVALZC0tK2elH+cImbrZC =HrOc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Andersen wrote:

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 2:40 AM, G T Smith <grahamsmith@gandalfsemporium.homelinux.com> wrote:

...

For instance relational database concepts have been around for some time for categorising data and while it makes sense to organise computing executable structures in trees, why are we still organising our documents in this manner?[1]

Why? Because file systems have proven themselves more reliable than database oriented approaches, and a close copy of what people do in the physical world.

We store documents (contracts, deliverables, schedules) in our files organized by projects, in folders, in drawers. Its simple, and even though finding ALL schedules is a bit of a mad-thrash, its do-able. Nothing but mindless duplication of documents allows us to look one place to find all schedules, or all deliverables across the entire engineering division.

If we could trust databases not to come totally unglued losing ALL OUR DATA we might keep out files in such a structure, and be able to find it 50 different ways without duplication.

But there is nothing in the real world that comes close to that.

Further, storage and retrieval are not desktop elements, and unless/until all users use KDE it would be inappropriate to build this functionality only into the desktop.

Eh? we should be using computer technology to enhance what we do, not merely replicate it! The issue of maintaining database integrity and database restoration is already mission critical in many places, any there are proven mechanisms to protect databases (and a file system in many ways is a primitive database). Just because we always did it that way does not mean we should always do it that way. If early humans did did find alternative ways of making fire, we would be still waiting for a passing thunderstorm to light the the fire for lunch...

...

The perceived need for indexing systems such as beagle must in part come from the recognition that the current way of doing things is not entirely effective as an organisational mechanism. If we change the way personal documentation is perceived as been organized this implies a change in how that documentation is accessed, i.e at the desktop. Rather than in individual applications.

The arguments you are making for building this technology into the desktop are would be more properly focused on the file system. Building such technology into the desktop is cart before the horse.

Ummm... Interestingly Will in another mail has indicated that there is something under the hood in KDE4 (Nepomuk?? but whats in a name :-) ) that may moving in this kind of direction. Will do a little googling later to find out more.... - -- ============================================================================== I have always wished that my computer would be as easy to use as my telephone. My wish has come true. I no longer know how to use my telephone. Bjarne Stroustrup ============================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklA5K8ACgkQasN0sSnLmgL2IACgs+NZtjJqVBmB160S4v9GHCOk 0n0AoMed/vPXLavhxCzCJVn40vvbZFXg =VIKf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2008-12-10 at 18:58 -0800, John Andersen wrote:

...

For instance relational database concepts have been around for some time for categorising data and while it makes sense to organise computing executable structures in trees, why are we still organising our documents in this manner?[1]

Why? Because file systems have proven themselves more reliable than database oriented approaches, and a close copy of what people do in the physical world.

We store documents (contracts, deliverables, schedules) in our files organized by projects, in folders, in drawers. Its simple, and even though finding ALL schedules is a bit of a mad-thrash, its do-able. Nothing but mindless duplication of documents allows us to look one place to find all schedules, or all deliverables across the entire engineering division.

If we could trust databases not to come totally unglued losing ALL OUR DATA we might keep out files in such a structure, and be able to find it 50 different ways without duplication.

But there is nothing in the real world that comes close to that.

Further, storage and retrieval are not desktop elements, and unless/until all users use KDE it would be inappropriate to build this functionality only into the desktop.

You know, reiserfs 4 intended to close the gap: more or less, use the filesystem as a database. It doesn't seem likely they will ever finish it, though. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAklBAOcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V5VQCZATiA1KwsRAnXr5ATjBlDdrZ1 InwAnjuKQSKDO0llddrr8A1veZEiIB6L =MR6/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2008-12-11 at 07:22 -0500, James Knott wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

You know, reiserfs 4 intended to close the gap: more or less, use the filesystem as a database. It doesn't seem likely they will ever finish it, though.

You'd think Hans would have lots of time for it now. ;-)

His journaling days are over.. When is _his_ release date ? Hans -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 10 December 2008 04:40:42 am G T Smith wrote:

...

Generally something that works (such as the basic concept of different applications running in "windows" on a desktop) tend to hang around until it no longer works well, or some new invention arrives that allows a different approach.

I've not seen much of either.

I think the underlying problem is in many contexts and for many (non-IT) people it does not really work that well, it is something many are familiar with but more as a known barrier than a real aid. It is less of a barrier than the command line but still a barrier nonetheless. The difficulty is that many at the technical end do not really see this as an issue with the technology more an issue with the people using the technology. Maybe the cart is being put in front of the horse here, and we should be looking at presentation mechanisms that people are more comfortable with?

Maybe this can give some ideas on new options in human interface design: http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Plasma/RecommendedReading -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 11 December 2008 12:02:01 am kanenas@hawaii.rr.com wrote:

soooo, what are kde and suse going to do for the new year and for the little people?

Hi Dimitris, the link to http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Plasma/RecommendedReading is just to see what developers are trying to accomplish. I watched video that is linked from Away with Applications: The Death of the Desktop http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6856727143023456694 and while presenter wasn't able to give answers on some (important) questions, general idea that current application centric desktop will produce monster application is valid. Everyone is trying to give user ability to do all he needs without switching trough few applications, and as time is passing, every application grows adding features until user will need basic desktop and any of application to do all work. I'm not sure that all ideas in video are step forward, but it is time for change. The situation is the same as in old DOS days when every program brought its graphic, sound and mouse drivers, some kind of windowing system, then came someone with idea to offer that as a part of operating system. Users and developers accepted that happily. Users got unified interface, where you had to learn how to operate it once, developers had one way to access GUI, driver developers had one way to write drivers for their devices. I still have one very old graphic card that had few drivers, among others there were some for particular applications, I guess AutoCAD was one of them. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 09 December 2008 00:56:48 Phil Savoie wrote:

[...snip...] I don't mind change, but God in Heaven, let's wait until it works first shall we? I sure hope the PHB's at opensuse has heard the backlash and have stopped this notion of pushing unfinished and broken crap down the pipe all for the sake of change.

Phil

Up until now I've stayed well away from this debate but I think now that it is worth mentioning this; openSUSE is to SLED/SLES what Fedora is to RHEL i.e. a community based, "almost bleeding-edge" distro aimed with community development involvement aimed at bedding down and stabilising newer technologies prior to their incorporation in SLES/SLED. IMHO it isn't intended to be the most stable, supported distro out there (even though it is one of the better ones). If you want stability and long release cycles with slow-and-steady change, use Debian or one of the commercially supported distros. On the other hand, if you want to contribute in a meaningful way by using (and testing) the latest features and technologies and feeding back info to the developers (via bug reports) and thus assist in making the new features usable, useful and stable, then use one of the community based distros that focus on that stuff. If you just want to use it, don't install the new stuff - stick with what you know and love and let others do the work of improving the new stuff. FOSS is about *choice*. We should all make our own choices about how we use our hardware and software and *respect the choices of others also*. So - if you don't like KDE4, don't use it. Just don't criticise others who do use it and contribute to making it better. And don't criticise those who do the work of compiling the distro and getting it out there, just because they give people the choice to contribute to developing and testing the bleeding edge stuff. OK, so you might not like the way they provide that choice; in that case, provide calm, rational and appropriately thought out constructive criticism in the appropriate forums (e.g. bugzilla or the factory mailing list). Just don't let it descend into personal grudges, ranting and philosophical rhetoric. There - I've got that off my chest. Back to work now. Regards all, Rodney. -- =================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au ===================================================

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Andrew Joakimsen <joakimsen@gmail.com> wrote:

You can't expect the latest software to keep on running on older machines forever. Maybe keeping 3.5 on those machines is the best idea?

I do get tired of hearing this. The KDE team has stated that KDE4 uses less resources and less RAM than KDE3. How is that an indication that I need to replace my machines.

I don't think that Windows Vista or Mac OS X will run "great" on either of those machines...

Well, I wouldn't try Vista and it would be too much work to run OS X on it. However, I have a copy of OS X 10.4 Tiger on a G3/400 desktop and it runs fine. I wouldn't try 10.5 Leapord, but Tiger is decent. So, what, we will always keep needing more hardware reqs? Sorry, that's BS. I can load Win98SE on my Thinkpad 380XD P2/233/96MB(MAX) and use Firefox 2.0 and browse the web just fine(other than flash/videos - Text is great) and type documents just fine with Wordpad. What takes the resources is making the desktop "pretty" and having it "respond" to what you are doing. Personally, I want the program to run when I click it. I don't need windows to "grow" and "shrink" when I minimize/maximize. I want it to go away or come back. It's like hiding the taskbar. I have the buttons on both sides and when I click them, it dissappears. No animation. Other than the window redrawing to fill in the new space, it's fast. Doesn't matter if I'm on my Celeron E1200 overclocked to 3.2 Ghz or my Dual P3/Xeon 500Mhz Desktop. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Larry Stotler <larrystotler@gmail.com> [12-03-08 17:22]:

So, what, we will always keep needing more hardware reqs? Sorry, that's BS. I can load Win98SE on my Thinkpad 380XD P2/233/96MB(MAX) and use Firefox 2.0 and browse the web just fine(other than flash/videos - Text is great) and type documents just fine with Wordpad.

If that makes you happy, then by all means....

What takes the resources is making the desktop "pretty" and having it "respond" to what you are doing. Personally, I want the program to run when I click it. I don't need windows to "grow" and "shrink" when I minimize/maximize. I want it to go away or come back. It's like hiding the taskbar. I have the buttons on both sides and when I click them, it dissappears. No animation. Other than the window redrawing to fill in the new space, it's fast. Doesn't matter if I'm on my Celeron E1200 overclocked to 3.2 Ghz or my Dual P3/Xeon 500Mhz Desktop.

Then there is always icewm and twm and .... which will have no problems on minimal/older hardware. It's not like you have to drive a Cadilac just because you can afford it/or not :^) You *do* have a choice, that's what linux stands for. You chooses yer poison -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

...

On 12/4/2008 at 1:02 PM, "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote: It is not: keep using kde3, then. No, you tell them to switch to icewm.

Keep KDE3, don't use the new features, don't upgrade to newer OSS Versions. If you agree to have one part kept in an old, unsupported state, why should you care for the rest? It can't be better hardware support from a newer kernel, when in the same time you talk about running it on older hardware. So what? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

...

On 12/4/2008 at 1:28 PM, "Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote: Security updates, software compatibility.

KDE3 is to be defined EOL pretty soon and no much more support is probably going to fly into this. So you WANT to use KDE4, but you want it to be exactly like KDE3? Doesn't make to much sense then. Grab a team of some good friends, take over the KDE3 branch! If SO many people want this, I'm sure it can't be that difficult to find some talented people that start working on this.

You forget the part about "Linux supports old hardware, you do not

need to