On Saturday 27 August 2011 3:04:35 PM Constant Brouerius van Nidek wrote:

On Saturday, August 27, 2011 02:29:36 PM George OLson wrote:

...

Ok, next problem. I have an older pc for my kids that was running windows xp on it. It is an old Dell desktop with a dual core (I think) Intel Pentium 4 processor and 256MB of RAM.

I completely removed XP and installed 32bit OS 11.4 and it is now up and running. However, it runs really, really slow. Basically it is unusable. I kind of expected that, but I wanted to try it out anyway. I assume the problem is not enough memory, right?

So what is the best course of action to get it usable for my kids? Is the problem with KDE? Does KDE take up too much RAM to run in the new 4.6? Should I try and downgrade to an earlier version of KDE? If so, how do I get the older KDE packages and install them?

Or is the problem with the whole distribution? I have disks for OS 11.1 and OS 9.3. Should I install one of those instead of 11.4?

What do I need to look at to figure out the source of the problem and figure out how to fix it, if the easy solution is not just downgrading everything?

Dear George,

A much better solution is not to use KDE but take one of the lightweight window managers. I like KDE but I regularly use LXDE which is much easier on my machine. I have everything I am using on KDE available with an easy switch. Ctrl Alt <--, in the menu switching to LXDE and of I go. Used other window managers also but I like LXDE best. In Yast, go to software managment, RPM groups and go down until you will see a list of other GUI's. There you will find lightweights like LXDE, XFCEn and under others Icewm etc.. No need to downgrade and if you somewhere along the line decide to put more memory on the machine you are just three keystrokes away from KDE.

Regards

Constant

Linux User 183145 using LXDE and KDE4 on a Pentium IV , powered by openSUSE 11.4 (i586) Kernel: 3.1.0-rc3-1-desktop LXDE WM & KDE Development Platform: 4.7.00 (4.7.0) 13:52pm up 1:05, 3 users, load average: 1.12, 1.43, 2.06

Ok, I have installed LXDE through Yast. How do I now switch over to using LXDE instead of KDE? And how do I set it up so that when the system boots up it loads LXDE instead of KDE? Thanks George -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 08/27/2011 08:01 AM, George P. Olson wrote:

Ok, I have installed LXDE through Yast. How do I now switch over to using LXDE instead of KDE? And how do I set it up so that when the system boots up it loads LXDE instead of KDE? When you come to the GUI log in, in the bottom left is a option that says "session manager", switch to lxde in there, it should remember your login options from there on every time you log out or reboot

-- Michael S. Dunsavage -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 14:49, Insomniac wrote:

 IMO, 7.3 and 9.3 were the best versions SuSE has ever put out. KDE screwed up going to KDE4 and all the moronic eye candy garbage and not-intuitive-anymore ways of getting to anything done and taking a *LOT* of control away from the user

If you don't like it, you can EASILY install KDE3 (or Gnome2, or e16, or Fluxbox, or, or, or...). KDE3 is still there and being regularly maintained by a team here, and they are doing a great job at keeping KDE3 alive for those who prefer it (thanks guys, your work is much appreciated by those who favor KDE3). The reality is... life moves on. You can either stay stuck in the past (and Linux allows you to easily do this something you cannot do with Windows by the way - for example, try installing Windows 3.11 and then try to install the latest Firefox vs installing KDE3 in openSUSE 11.4) or you can use the new tools and features that are being developed. By the way, KDE4 has LOADS of user config - much more than KDE3 ever had (if you could be bothered to look at KDE4.7), and the KDE4 "eye-candy", can easily be toggled on and off... in fact, it will even auto-toggle the eye-candy off on start-up if you're running on a low spec machine and it detects that it is slow or cannot do the effects.

or mailing lists and you hear the excuses M$ users used 10 years ago for it not running well on their systems - ie: not enough RAM, reboot to fix it, the 'oh you need the sooper-dooper-most-up-to-date-version of that to work' excuse, ad nausea.

You HAVE A CHOICE. You do not need to run KDE4. It's not the only way. No one forces you to use it. If you have a low spec machine, use something like LXDE. That's why it's there, and it's a fully supported option in openSUSE. Your complaint here is like saying "I want 1080p resolution Color Television on my 1975 Black and White TV! Why can't I get high def and 3D video on my B&W TV?" You want the new functionality and features, you have to use hardware that can handle it. That's not so hard to understand.

finding updated apps *IF* they're necessary for whatever odd reason. As I said, things seemed to just work, so hopefully you'll not need to worry about updating anything. Me, I'm also going to put 9.3 back on another partition and prove once-and-for-all that I should have stayed with it, or not.

Nothing fundamentally wrong with using 9.3. It was a solid release, but it's also horribly obsolete and thus full of old vulnerabilities that have been patched and fixed in updates that will not be applied to that release. You are going to have a hell of a time finding a way to install... Skype for example... or a modern browser. Firefox6 and Chrome12 are not going to be easy animals to install. For a desktop aimed at a beginner user who will want these tools and apps, it's a poor choice. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Insomniac said the following on 08/28/2011 08:26 PM:

"EASILY" is a relative term. If one has only dial-up and that is all one can get because of any number of reasons, no, KDE3 is*NOT* easy to get.

In that case so is openSuse, Fedora, Mint, Mandriva and everything else. So is setting up repositories for bug fixes and updates ... So is downloading CD and DVD images ... So is downloading movies, email, the embedded graphics when browsing the web. No wonder you want to stick with archaic releases. But please don't use *your* bandwidth limitations as a reason for other people to avoid going with more capable revisions or desirable functions or bug fixes. -- "The greatest of all faults is to be conscious of none. Recognizing our limitations & imperfections is the first requisite of progress. Those who believe they have "arrived" believe they have nowhere to go. Some not only have closed their minds to new truth, but they sit on the lid." -- Dale Turner. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 29. August 2011, 09:10:42 schrieb Insomniac:

Who cares if I can't download movies or music?! Good grief!Quit trying to tell me that for having used linux for almost 12 years I don't know what worked well and what didn't! I even said it was my *OPINION*, you ass!

Thanks for showing off where you come from. But most people on this list do not appreciate that kind of language so please stop using it or move to some community where it is ok to talk like that. If you do not believe me, please read the netiquette for the mailinglist. Thanks Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 29. August 2011, 16:38:09 schrieb Insomniac:

Oh grow a pair, Sven. Since it's okay for you and others to browbeat anyone who's crapping on your sacred cow, I'll speak to them any way I wish. Pretty nice, too, how you snipped the post that shows *why* I used that language. Grow a backbone, wear the pants in your home for once, and come out from behind your mommies skirts.

There is no justification for such language - that's what you miss. But who would have expected otherwise. And please quote where I claimed that KDE4 would be perfect or even better than KDE3. If you cannot quote that - I guess you must realise that it's all in your head. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday, August 29, 2011 13:08 Brian K. White wrote: <snip>

...

Don't install them! You have a choice! Any of the older Firefox's work just

fine, as do any of the SeaMonkey's, Konqueror was a beautiful browser *AND* works better than that abortion we have now called dolphin.

Well, I actually agree with 90% of what you said but in the interest of correctness, I do have to point out that this last is not quite true.

Just as it's not unilaterally easy to "just install kde3" as your example shows, so too it is not unilaterally easy to "just keep using the old version"

I never, nowhere said KDE3 will install easily. I said versions 7.3 and 9.3 were, IMO, the best versions suse put out and that KDE3 worked and worked well in them.

Try to log in to Google+ with the version of firefox embedded into the InstantON mini linux OS on several Viao and other laptops. All you get is a screen that says, literal quote, "Your browser is no longer supported. Google+ no longer supports your browser. Please upgrade your browser." and offers download links for the latest chrome, ie, firefox, & safari.

This is where Konqueror shined. I could have it tell a website that pulled that kind of garbage that I *am* using what is needed. None of these other browser did or do that now, unfortunately. It takes many of us too, to tell those who make such wastes of cyberspace to *stop* being so browser centric. What possible good does it do anyone other than to pad the pockets of somebody who can barely turn on their computer in the first place. It's sad that it's come to this (it's just much, much worse these past 4 or 5 years, than it ever was before then).

Gee how nice. I would love to upgrade the browser but that mini OS is only updatable by Sony and they are NOT. It's made of linux and other gpl stuff like firefox but never the less source is not available. Sure it's GPL violation but that doesn't magically make it possible for all the users to actually do what other users and developers are saying they should "just do". And this old version of firefox? It's only from late 2009, not _nearly_ as old as suse 9.3.

Don't support Sony then. Don't use or buy anything that works in such a way. By buying their garbage, you tell them that it's 'okay' to violate GPL and telling the devs to FOAD and screw what license they want used on their work. Seems pretty simple to me, but I'm sure there's a variable in there somewhere, but I'd find a way to get around it if this is the cost and hit to the free world and FOSS. -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (i586) Kernel: 2.6.34-12-desktop KDE: 3.5.10 "release 41" 16:23pm up 3 days 17:20, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. -Isaac Asimov -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Insomniac said the following on 08/28/2011 08:49 AM:

On Saturday, August 27, 2011 01:29 George OLson wrote:

...

Ok, next problem. I have an older pc for my kids that was running windows xp on it. It is an old Dell desktop with a dual core (I think) Intel Pentium 4 processor and 256MB of RAM.

I completely removed XP and installed 32bit OS 11.4 and it is now up and running. However, it runs really, really slow. Basically it is unusable. I kind of expected that, but I wanted to try it out anyway. I assume the problem is not enough memory, right?

So what is the best course of action to get it usable for my kids? Is the problem with KDE? Does KDE take up too much RAM to run in the new 4.6? Should I try and downgrade to an earlier version of KDE? If so, how do I get the older KDE packages and install them?

Or is the problem with the whole distribution? I have disks for OS 11.1 and OS 9.3. Should I install one of those instead of 11.4?

IMO, 7.3 and 9.3 were the best versions SuSE has ever put out. KDE screwed up going to KDE4 and all the moronic eye candy garbage and not-intuitive-anymore ways of getting to anything done and taking a *LOT* of control away from the user - it's not much different in look and feel from M$ anymore. Unfortunately it seems Linux in general is going the way of M$, when you come to linux forums or mailing lists and you hear the excuses M$ users used 10 years ago for it not running well on their systems - ie: not enough RAM, reboot to fix it, the 'oh you need the sooper-dooper-most-up-to-date-version of that to work' excuse, ad nausea.

IMNSHO late model kernels are worth using for a number of reasons - fixes, reliability, functionality. Its not about "sooper-dooper-most-up-to-date-version" -itis, but about integrity. As a side effect its also about performance. KDE4 is much, much better than KDE3. Much easier, more intuitive, so long as you haven't been brainwashed by some defective desktop manager, perhaps out of Redmond :-) And its faster than KDE3. Is KDE3 more 'stable'? Of course it is! Comparing KDE3 and KDE4 is like comparing Latin and and English. There vocabulary and grammar of Latin is stable; that of English is changing. But how many people speak Latin? I have a number of older PCs. I use them for things like firewalls and low-load things like NTP, LDAP and so on. They all run versions of Linux from the last couple of years, Mandriva, Fedora, derivatives. I picked them up as junk-ware from the Salvation Army thrift store for less than a meal for the family at McD's would cost. They ran W/95. They wouldn't run XP/Home or Vista/Home. They do run Linux. Linux seems to run on just about any hardware I've used. A CD reader helps. You might not be able to run a LiveCD on some low-memory systems and might have a problem installing on the same, and of course the more you're running (background processes like NTP, SAMBA, XFS) the more you're loading the system. WYSISYG, and a large, capable desktop manager is going to need more memory. But if it comes to that, why do you need a GUI interface? We coped or decades without? Has Microsoft brain-washed you all to think that a computer HAS to have a GUI? My firewall, mail-hub, file-server: all headless. That firewall and the mail-hub: only 256K. Now my dial core laptop has a couple of G of memory, runs KDE4 FAST! Of course a good ATI card helps :-) What makes it swap/page, what can drag it down, is starting Firefox with 40-80 tabs ... but that's nothing to do with it being 11.4/KDE4.7 and everything to do with lots of tabs.... What does memory cost? Well its not worth buying memory for the firewall. its old. DDR3 is cheaper than DDR2 is cheaper than PC133 or PC100. For the cost of 512K ore PC100 for the firewall I can get a SallyAnne Special that uses DDR2 -- I *DID* and found out its actually an AMD-64. Somewhere along the line those older machines are not worth maintaining. Treat them like toilet paper: discard when used up and get a new one out of the closet (the closet being your local Thrift Store). If this were 'corporate', then the value of my time reading the thread and replying would exceed the cost of new machine. But it isn't, its 'home' and I like tinkering. But somewhere along the line its not worth the frustration. My workstation - now that's a different story: this is a high end "desktop replacement" laptop, loaded but not quite gamer-quality. This has to keep working! This is not a toy, this is not for tinkering. So make your mind up. I you want to play and learn then expect to spend a little. But if its 'corporate', don't faf-around. -- Think then act - There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all - Peter Drucker. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday, August 28, 2011 08:32 Anton Aylward wrote:

Insomniac said the following on 08/28/2011 08:49 AM:

...

On Saturday, August 27, 2011 01:29 George OLson wrote:

...

Ok, next problem. I have an older pc for my kids that was running windows xp on it. It is an old Dell desktop with a dual core (I think) Intel Pentium 4 processor and 256MB of RAM.

I completely removed XP and installed 32bit OS 11.4 and it is now up and running. However, it runs really, really slow. Basically it is unusable. I kind of expected that, but I wanted to try it out anyway. I assume the problem is not enough memory, right?

So what is the best course of action to get it usable for my kids? Is the problem with KDE? Does KDE take up too much RAM to run in the new 4.6? Should I try and downgrade to an earlier version of KDE? If so, how do I get the older KDE packages and install them?

Or is the problem with the whole distribution? I have disks for OS 11.1 and OS 9.3. Should I install one of those instead of 11.4?

IMO, 7.3 and 9.3 were the best versions SuSE has ever put out. KDE screwed up

going to KDE4 and all the moronic eye candy garbage and not-intuitive-anymore ways of getting to anything done and taking a *LOT* of control away from the user - it's not much different in look and feel from M$ anymore. Unfortunately it seems Linux in general is going the way of M$, when you come to linux forums or mailing lists and you hear the excuses M$ users used 10 years ago for it not running well on their systems - ie: not enough RAM, reboot to fix it, the 'oh you need the sooper-dooper-most-up-to-date-version of that to work' excuse, ad nausea.

IMNSHO late model kernels are worth using for a number of reasons - fixes, reliability, functionality. Its not about "sooper-dooper-most-up-to-date-version" -itis, but about integrity. As a side effect its also about performance.

I've yet to see the 'performance' boost. The only thing that's made my system stay running fast with 11.3 installed, was that some of my old hardware wore out and simply died and so I bought new and simply upgraded to the best I could afford (still old, btw athlon II X2 240).

KDE4 is much, much better than KDE3.

Says you and some few others. I've yet to see an overwhelming majority of people speaking up and out about it, and I don't mean just in this mailing list either, I mean all over the web.

Much easier, more intuitive, so long as you haven't been brainwashed by some defective desktop manager, perhaps out of Redmond :-) And its faster than KDE3.

Again, says you and some few others. I find it was far more intuitive as it was when it was KDE3. <shrug> <snip> -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (i586) Kernel: 2.6.34-12-desktop KDE: 3.5.10 "release 41" 19:26pm up 2 days 20:23, 2 users, load average: 0.05, 0.03, 0.00 Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. -Isaac Asimov -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday, August 28, 2011 21:42 Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

On 08/28/2011 10:24 PM, Insomniac wrote:

...

Again, says you and some few others. I find it was far more intuitive as it

was when it was KDE3.<shrug>

Then go use it and quit whining about KDE4. You're not going to convince the users of KDE4 on this list to revert back.

If anyone's "whining", it's you and those bitching like little girls about my posts! Stick to the subject and actually *READ* the posts, you moron. I said it was my *OPINION* and gave *MY* reasons for them! In *MY* almost 12 years of using suse, *I* know what worked/works well for *ME* and what doesn't anymore. I said this to the OP, but apparently you're too much of a little bitch when someone wants to slaughter your sacred cow! STFU and read the whole thing before you open your mouth and spew. -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (i586) Kernel: 2.6.34-12-desktop KDE: 3.5.10 "release 41" 09:11am up 3 days 10:08, 2 users, load average: 0.02, 0.05, 0.01 Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. -Isaac Asimov -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 29/08/11 12:24, Insomniac wrote:

On Sunday, August 28, 2011 08:32 Anton Aylward wrote:

[pruned]

...

KDE4 is much, much better than KDE3. Says you and some few others. I've yet to see an overwhelming majority of people speaking up and out about it, and I don't mean just in this mailing list either, I mean all over the web.

...

Much easier, more intuitive, so long as you haven't been brainwashed by some defective desktop manager, perhaps out of Redmond :-) And its faster than KDE3. Again, says you and some few others. I find it was far more intuitive as it was when it was KDE3.<shrug>

I have all the features in KDE 4.7 which I had in KDE3 - and then some. I have a clean desktop; the wallpaper of my choosing; all my favourite programs are started from teensy-weensy icons located on the bottom taskbar - which also auto-hides; and I have 6 workspaces. Oh, I also have a 24-hour clock with day and month and seconds displayed, and everything...... What else does a body need, eh? (Background just to show that I play it as I see it: I gave openSUSE away when KDE4 was introduced and went over to another distro. But when that distro went stupid with another DE I decided to come back to oS but using GNOME3. I soon realised that the real future lay in KDE and so installed 11.4 with the default KDE4 which I then upgraded to 4.6 and now to 4.7. KDE3, honestly, has no future. There is nothing wrong with KDE4.7. But then it is always a matter of, "Whatever turns you on, baby!", right? :-) .) BC -- "Facts are stupid things." Ronald Reagan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 8/29/2011 1:41 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

I have all the features in KDE 4.7 which I had in KDE3 - and then some.

Wrong. You have all the features you personally happen to notice or care about. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 8/29/2011 2:44 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Montag, 29. August 2011, 14:14:39 schrieb Brian K. White:

...

On 8/29/2011 1:41 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

I have all the features in KDE 4.7 which I had in KDE3 - and then some.

Wrong. You have all the features you personally happen to notice or care about.

Wrong because he wrote "I" instead of "I personally"? Is there a non-personal I? Maybe if one has multiple… :)

But I guess you refer to the features he does not miss because he did not use them. Well, that's true of course but true as well is, that since he is using KDE4 it is likely that there are features he notices and cares about that KDE3 lacks.

So whose feature is now more important? And if one blames KDE4 for not having a feature KDE3 had why is it not as valid to blame KDE3 for not having some KDE4 feature – after all one can still add features to KDE3? Are new features worth less than old ones. Who decides which feature is more valuable.

Or is it simply a matter of claiming that no feature must vanish? If one takes that point of view I can understand all the fuss about KDE4 not having all the features of KDE3 – but then again, KDE4 is not KDE3 + additions but mainly a rewrite and IMHO it is a bit narrow minded to demand a "rebuild all features of previous versions if you do a rewrite" given that KDE is quite a large project and as everything an object within time that reflects changing demands and approaches.

You personally might not need any of the new features in KDE4, while some other person might not need any of the features KDE3 had and KDE4 does not anymore but he does need some features KDE4 provides while KDE3 lacks them. So who is right? IMO both – one person is a KDE3 user, the other a KDE4 user. Some KDE3 users become KDE4 users, others not. Some KDE4 users become Gnome users and the other way around. That's how it works.

One can take the point of view that devs should care more about old users that want all their features included rather than new or current users who adopt the new features and do not miss any old ones to the degree that makes them claim that it is impossible to work with KDE4 – but again – who decides on that in a project that mainly builds on people doing what they enjoy and not what they are told.

Sven

Absolutely it is a developers right to develop whatever they want with little or no regard for a users wishes. A developers right to develop whatever they want for their own amusement in no way removes a users right to dislike the result. Also, the number of users who happily adopt something, or reject it, is _itself_ not a valid datum except when dealing with sales. Many millions of people eat at McDonalds and McDonalds surely makes a lot more money than even the finest proper restaurant, but it's still unmitigated garbage by any objective standard you want to consider (except sales). Personally I don't much like any kde or gnome, old or new, and I use lxde where possible (lately). My reasons are not too different from what these people are saying about kde4 vs kde3. They're full of crap I don't want and don't have enough, or good enough, things I might want to compensate. So I vote with my feet. The conflict here comes from the fact that the developers are telling the world "this new thing is better". Maybe the world is technically wrong for interpreting the developers actions that way but it's an inarguable fact that that's the way the world interprets: * halting all development on the existing product, * only working on the new product, * giving the new product the same name but with a higher version number. By putting the product out there and declaring it's ready for use, they cause distributions and individuals to switch to it. Everyone technically has a choice to decline, but it's not that simple of course. When you say "We developed the old Foo, and we are no longer going to work on or support the old Foo" you are in fact exerting a pressure that almost qualifies as force, for everyone else to stop using the old Foo and use the new Foo, whether they like it or not. It's in no way wrong for anyone who perceives a problem with the new product, or an unfavorable comparison with with the old product, to say so. Especially to people might never have known any better because the new product was made the default. Especially to people who have some say in what is placed in front of all users by default. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 09:12:32AM +0200, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Sonntag, 28. August 2011, 21:24:43 schrieb Insomniac:

...

...

KDE4 is much, much better than KDE3.

Says you and some few others. I've yet to see an overwhelming majority of people speaking up and out about it, and I don't mean just in this mailing list either, I mean all over the web.

I have used KDE3 on my laptop, which was my main working machine, for over 5 years, with Suse 9.2, and I was very satisfied. September 2010 the laptop was at its end, I bought a new one, and with it I installed KDE4, first with Suse 11.3, then with 11.4. I have put a lot of effort into it, trying to feel at least partially well with it, but KDE4 is just partially crap. The decline from KDE3 to KDE4 is for me personally the biggest disaster experienced in the open-source world. I started using Suse around 1999, I think it was 6.2 (Suse was my first Linux distribution, and since then I sticked to it), and since then I used KDE. So I have some experience with it. The current state of KDE (using 4.6.0, all updates which come with the Suse repositories, but not 4.7 -- I guess there will be too many problems yet) is regarding usability (stability) rather precisely what used to be early KDE versions: everything works partially, it's a permanent workaround. HOWEVER, different from the time then, the feeling now is very different: at that time KDE was on the way up, it developed in the right direction, and one felt progress. Finally, what came with Suse 9.2, was great, and ONLY HAD TO BE FINISHED (polishing and so). On my workstation in my office I used Suse 10.0 with KDE3 even longer, just last week I installed Suse 11.4 on it, due to some hardware problems; again, there I was very satisfied with KDE3. (Last week I destroyed the harddisk of the laptop, and there I ran KDE3 again, a last time: was actually a sad feeling, seeing a working desktop again, based on enlightenment (see below), where I feel that might never come again; I would know how to produce a desktop, however that would be an enormous effort, and I don't have at all the time for this.) My interpretation of KDE4 is that the degeneration can only be understood as mental corruption by the microsoft/apple world: a radical change in the underlying design took place with KDE4, which now tries to simulate the various Windows-versions. (This goes hand in hand with the general degeneration in society: although we see that business destroys us, it gets mightier and mightier.) The key word here are VIRTUAL DESKTOPS: this is in my vision of the desktop the key element, moving away from the bad image of a "desktop", moving towards, say, a "building" with many rooms, for the many different (permanent!) activities a complex human being is involved with. KDE4 embodies the microsoft/apply direction, with basically one big window open plus a lot of gadgets around it, for distraction. Virtual desktops do no longer work with KDE4; perhaps with version 4.11 it might work again, and then it could be tolerable. However, there will come QT5, with it KDE5, and this will then likely be the end of KDE. Just looking at current developments in KDE (and QT), one sees that it develops in a fundamentally wrong direction: it's all about tiny devices, consumers, not the enlightened person who needs a powerful system, but the consumer who needs distraction from his/her alienated work place, and who shall to be tied up in the system, without control. A fact: I have submitted many bug reports to KDE over the years. With KDE3, altogether there have been over 1000 e-mails exchanged. To everything there was a reaction, a discussion, mostly finally some solution. With KDE4 I only got two small reactions yet, which didn't touch the real subject. It might be that they are overwhelmed with crash reports. But I also think that anything which concerns the core desktop is no longer of importance for KDE. Oliver P.S. I hope very much that at some point Suse will support the Trinity project http://www.trinitydesktop.org/, which very unfortunately only considers Ubuntu etc. Then one could try it out. P.S.P.S. I think a basic design problem of KDE (3 and 4) is about the configuration. This is bad in KDE3+4, however with KDE4 I have the impression that it finally abandoned the goal of (complete) user control, but their ideal is the "automatic system", where most users just push buttons on the surface. To add injury to the insult, that automatic system (of course) doesn't work. P.S.P.S.P.S. I conjecture that the dividing line between those who prefer KDE3 resp. KDE4 is precisely the use of virtual desktops: those who prefer KDE3 will have a large (so well, just 20 is possible) number of virtual desktops, in permanent use (for example on my workstation I had always around 200-300 windows open; as I said, I want to live in a "house", or "building", not on a shallow "desktop"), those who prefer KDE4 will not care much about it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

phanisvara das said the following on 08/29/2011 05:19 AM:

another thing is that you use KDE 4.6. that's the so-called "stable version" for openSUSE, but KDE considers 4.7 it's present stable version. in my experience, many of the half-finished features and not properly working ones have been fixed. 4.7_is_ stable, and better than 4.6. you'll have less bad experiences using that instead of 4.6.

KDE4 is a living system; "ongoing". There are going to be unfinished features in any revision. This is what you expect from something that is not merely 'supported' but the subject of active development. I drew the analogy between Latin -a dead language whose vocabulary and grammar and fixed, and English, one whose vocabulary is in flux, new words and terms and usages coming along and older ones dying off though lack of use. And its grammar is changing too. My 1985 edition of the Chicago Manual of Style was the 13th revision. I gave up, I haven't bothered with later editions. I can keep up to date with KDE4 easily, but the CMoS is a heavy and expensive book. And then there's spelling ... use of 'email' vs 'e-mail' and much more. No doubt there are people who think there should be a 'right' language even if it is a contemporary language; we see that in France where there is an Academy that dictates what is and isn't French. How much notice the "man on the street" in France takes of this I don't know, but in English the dictionary-makers try to descriptive rather than proscriptive, and admit they are playing catch-up -- by the time some words get into print they have gone out of use. KDE4 has seen that. Some features were tried and didn't work out they way the developers originally thought. Thankfully they weren't as inflexible as the people who have us return to KDE3 and they rewrote. We can expect more of this. KDE4 is an ongoing project. That is what makes it so wonderful! -- On the Internet there are no *good* neighbourhoods -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 29. August 2011, 09:20:34 schrieb Oliver Kullmann:

The key word here are VIRTUAL DESKTOPS: this is in my vision of the desktop the key element, moving away from the bad image of a "desktop", moving towards, say, a "building" with many rooms, for the many different (permanent!) activities a complex human being is involved with. KDE4 embodies the microsoft/apply direction, with basically one big window open plus a lot of gadgets around it, for distraction. Virtual desktops do no longer work with KDE4; perhaps with version 4.11 it might work again, and then it could be tolerable. However, there will come QT5, with it KDE5, and this will then likely be the end of KDE.

Did you read Bob's email from yesterday in this thread before posting?

Just looking at current developments in KDE (and QT), one sees that it develops in a fundamentally wrong direction: it's all about tiny devices, consumers, not the enlightened person who needs a powerful system, but the consumer who needs distraction from his/her alienated work place, and who shall to be tied up in the system, without control.

A fact: I have submitted many bug reports to KDE over the years. With KDE3, altogether there have been over 1000 e-mails exchanged. To everything there was a reaction, a discussion, mostly finally some solution. With KDE4 I only got two small reactions yet, which didn't touch the real subject. It might be that they are overwhelmed with crash reports. But I also think that anything which concerns the core desktop is no longer of importance for KDE.

My fact: I submitted lots of bugs and lots got fixed. However there are a lot of KDE3 bugs that got closed as unmaintained and will never get fixed.

P.S.P.S.P.S. I conjecture that the dividing line between those who prefer KDE3 resp. KDE4 is precisely the use of virtual desktops: those who prefer KDE3 will have a large (so well, just 20 is possible) number of virtual desktops, in permanent use (for example on my workstation I had always around 200-300 windows open; as I said, I want to live in a "house", or "building", not on a shallow "desktop"), those who prefer KDE4 will not care much about it.

See above and then you might see why I do not get that argument. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 29. August 2011, 15:55:41 schrieb Oliver Kullmann:

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 04:24:12PM +0200, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Did you read Bob's email from yesterday in this thread before posting?

Could you please be more specific? Which e-mail (and which content in it)? And I didn't find an e-mail posted by "Bob", but perhaps I'm not familiar with what "Bob" stands for (I thought "Robert").

I wrote Bob and not Robert and there is only one Bob in this thread. His post shows yesterday 18:04:03 as timestamp here, so you might have to add/subtract some hours.

Again, would be great if you could be more explicit.

You claim virtual desktops are broken in KDE4 – others use them extensively with KDE4. Your statement "Virtual desktops do no longer work with KDE4;" is simply wrong – can only be wrong because it is far to general. There are bugs – most certainly there are – but your statement is just plain wrong. If you need an example - claiming that a car does not work when the radio is broken – is wrong.

Perhaps you mean the claims that for some people virtual desktops seem to work? See the bug reports in KDE under my name, many of the recent ones have to do with virtual desktops and their bugs (these I think I remember we all had (nearly) in KDE3, but they were cured). These bugs are facts. And nothing happens about them (this seems to be another fact, though a weaker one, since behind the scences things could change).

People have different priorities on how they spend their leisure time. Since it's not utterly broken, i.e. a lot of people can work with it maybe devs focus on things that are needed by more people. Who knows. The "my bugs are the most important" is a very subjective issue. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 29. August 2011, 17:01:34 schrieb Oliver Kullmann:

Why don't you just state what is important there for you? There are three posts by Bob Williams in this thread, and they do not speak about virtual desktops (they speak about "activities").

Oh. So you criticise something you do not even inform yourself about? Activities are at the heart of KDE4. Sorry, my fault - this whole discussion is pointless if you just claim things without gathering some info beforehand. Please read-up on activities and you might notice why your arguments fall short. And no, I'm not going to do the work for you since if I criticise an app I do read-up on it beforehand and nobody is going to do it for me either.

This discussion is just a little bit of support for the ideological nature of KDE4: instead of accepting that KDE4 does not work for many people, but oneself likes it, one has to eliminate the Other, it can not be that KDE4 is not that great thing (so, I think it's quite likely that under the surface of all that, say, proclaimed proud of KDE4, there is something rather different).

Where did I state that KDE4 is great? I just disagreed on the opposite when it is put in such a general statement. Maybe that helps you recognise how you read things into the text.

The position of those who suffer from KDE4 is rather different: I for example, like many other people, spend, say, perhaps 8 hours per day (7 days a week) before the computer. The pain KDE4 causes, and this for no good reasons, is real.

But, so well, I don't think there is much more to be said here.

Indeed. See above. Sven PS: And please stick to the netiquette and do not send me private email. State-of -the-art email clients have a "reply to mailinglist" functionality for a reason. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 29. August 2011, 09:22:47 schrieb Insomniac:

On Monday, August 29, 2011 02:12 Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Sonntag, 28. August 2011, 21:24:43 schrieb Insomniac:

...

...

KDE4 is much, much better than KDE3.

Says you and some few others. I've yet to see an overwhelming majority of

people speaking up and out about it, and I don't mean just in this mailing list either, I mean all over the web.

The overwhelming majority on this planet uses MS Windows…

Good god, how pedantic.

Oh, so suddenly accurate statements are pedantic? How convenient compared to having to find some real argument against it.

...

...

...

Much easier, more intuitive, so long as you haven't been brainwashed by some defective desktop manager, perhaps out of Redmond :-) And its faster than KDE3.

Again, says you and some few others. I find it was far more intuitive as

it was when it was KDE3. <shrug>

Funny that this line of argument is only valid in one direction – and without providing any data.

Reading comprehension - use it, learn it. See the 'I' at the beginning of the second sentence? That's proof enough *to me* that I know what worked *for me* and what doesn't now. Who are you to tell me otherwise? Have you sat at my side every time I've sat down at my computer for the past almost 12 years to use linux? Were you around to see what I saw and felt in the ways *I* feel things are going with much of it while trying to do the same things, with the same apps I've used for those past 12 years that don't work as well, *IMO* now as they once did?

Sorry, you missed that you also wrote "Again, says you and some few others." Which you mentioned twice in your email and which is what I was refering to. I can't find the "I" in there. :) So I hope you understand I ignore your statement and wait for one that refers to what I actually meant.

Tell you what, prove to me you aren't sleeping around on your wife. How's that for fair play? You want me to prove an unprovable, I want the same from you.

Are you really that frustrated or do you just want to show off some of your character traits? Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Insomniac [08-29-11 17:18]:

On Monday, August 29, 2011 09:58 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Absolutely nothing pertaining to the subject of my post to the OP.

I'm butchering your sacred cow, Sven. Bitch some more about it.

--------------------------------------------------- :0 * ^From:.*akulkis|\ ^From:.*Insomniactoo\@localnet\.com /dev/null --------------------------------------------------- -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 29 Aug 2011 11:06:47 James Knott wrote:

Insomniac wrote:

...

Says you and some few others. I've yet to see an overwhelming majority of people speaking up and out about it, and I don't mean just in this mailing list either, I mean all over the web.

http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2009/01/linus-torvalds-ditches-kde-4-for-gnom e.html

That article is dated January 26 2009! And relates to KDE 4.0 Bob -- Registered Linux User #463880 FSFE Member #1300 GPG-FP: A6C1 457C 6DBA B13E 5524 F703 D12A FB79 926B 994E openSUSE 11.4 64-bit, Kernel 2.6.37.6-0.5-desktop, KDE 4.6.5 Intel Core2 Quad Q9400 2.66GHz, 8GB DDR RAM, nVidia GeForce 9600GT -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday, August 29, 2011 09:48 Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Montag, 29. August 2011, 11:23:30 schrieb Bob Williams:

...

On Monday 29 Aug 2011 11:06:47 James Knott wrote:

...

Insomniac wrote:

...

Says you and some few others. I've yet to see an overwhelming majority of people speaking up and out about it, and I don't mean just in this mailing list either, I mean all over the web.

http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2009/01/linus-torvalds-ditches-kde-4-for- g nom e.html

That article is dated January 26 2009! And relates to KDE 4.0

And if one really relies on what he thinks and uses it as argument one should have read what he wrote about Gnome recently. Yet since it is not against KDE 4 it might be too biased or uninteresting. :)

Sven

There's that vast lack of letting any opinion other than your own be worth anything. How repugnant. -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (i586) Kernel: 2.6.34-12-desktop KDE: 3.5.10 "release 41" 16:18pm up 3 days 17:15, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00 Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. -Isaac Asimov -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Insomniac wrote:

IMO, 7.3 and 9.3 were the best versions SuSE has ever put out. KDE screwed up going to KDE4 and all the moronic eye candy garbage and not-intuitive-anymore ways of getting to anything done and taking a*LOT* of control away from the user - it's not much different in look and feel from M$ anymore. Unfortunately it seems Linux in general is going the way of M$, when you come to linux forums or mailing lists and you hear the excuses M$ users used 10 years ago for it not running well on their systems - ie: not enough RAM, reboot to fix it, the 'oh you need the sooper-dooper-most-up-to-date-version of that to work' excuse, ad nausea.

I agree. I'm currently running 11.0 on my main system. I have 11.4 on a few systems, but only one, my notebook, is not a firewall or server where the desktop is less critical. I also think KDE 4 was in many ways a step backward. I'll have to update (I can't use the word "upgrade") to a later verison of openSUSE soon, but I'm lot looking forward to being stuck with KDE 4. Like you, I find KDE 4 tends to get in the way, in the same manner that Windows 7 (which I use at work) gets in the way, compared to XP. Why do developers consider many of these "features" to be an improvement, when all they do is get in the way of users? Incidentally, a friend of mine recently bought a new computer that came with W7. She hates it and she's by no means a "power user". She just wants to get her work done and finds all the "improvements" in W7 to be an aggravation. It's a shame the Linux desktop developers seem to think they have to follow Microsoft's cue. I don't want eye candy crap. I want a desktop that works well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 16:15, James Knott wrote:

I agree.  I'm currently running 11.0 on my main system.  I have 11.4 on a few systems, but only one, my notebook, is not a firewall or server where the desktop is less critical.  I also think KDE 4 was in many ways a step backward.  I'll have to update (I can't use the word "upgrade") to a later verison of openSUSE soon, but I'm lot looking forward to being stuck with KDE 4.

If you want KDE3.. go here: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3 You can stick with your old KDE3 desktop if you want it. If keeping KDE3 is important to you, then you should join in with the KDE3 team and help them maintain it. I'm sure the volunteer team maintaining it now would welcome some extra hands helping out. Who says you're stuck with KDE4? openSUSE isn't just KDE4. Why does everyone think this? Every major Linux desktop environment, and a few not so well known are easily available and installable - most right from he install DVD. OK, KDE3 isn't there on the DVD, but installing it isn't that hard. You can do it from the command line or with YaST2 in NCurses/text mode if you don't want any other DE installed. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Bob Williams wrote:

The hardware is nearly five years old, but has plenty of grunt to run rotating desktop cubes, etc. Details in my sig.

quad-core and 8Gb of RAM - yeah, that'll do. In the office I have a few five year old Thinkpads, 1.5GHz Celerons, 512M RAM. These are for people taking them along to do a presentation or demo on site. They've been running openSUSE 10.3, but I thought I'd try out 11.4 - even with desktop effects turned off, it's only borderline useable. I'll have to see what happens if I were to revert to KDE3. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 29 Aug 2011 07:11:25 Per Jessen wrote:

Bob Williams wrote:

...

The hardware is nearly five years old, but has plenty of grunt to run rotating desktop cubes, etc. Details in my sig.

quad-core and 8Gb of RAM - yeah, that'll do. In the office I have a few five year old Thinkpads, 1.5GHz Celerons, 512M RAM. These are for people taking them along to do a presentation or demo on site. They've been running openSUSE 10.3, but I thought I'd try out 11.4 - even with desktop effects turned off, it's only borderline useable. I'll have to see what happens if I were to revert to KDE3.

OK, I did drift a bit off-topic, for some value of 'older pc'. I was responding to the comments that KDE4's new features are not an improvement and get in the way of users. Ah. That was also OT, as the subject is about openSUSE, not desktop environments. Oops! OTOH, my Dell Inspiron 1525 laptop also runs oS 11.4 + KDE4.7 with all the eye candy. Hang on, it's only three years old, so still a baby. Oh well. Bob -- Registered Linux User #463880 FSFE Member #1300 GPG-FP: A6C1 457C 6DBA B13E 5524 F703 D12A FB79 926B 994E openSUSE 11.4 64-bit, Kernel 2.6.37.6-0.5-desktop, KDE 4.6.5 Intel Core2 Quad Q9400 2.66GHz, 8GB DDR RAM, nVidia GeForce 9600GT -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 08/29/2011 09:49 AM, Larry Stotler wrote:

On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 2:29 AM, George OLson wrote:

...

Ok, next problem. I have an older pc for my kids that was running windows xp on it. It is an old Dell desktop with a dual core (I think) Intel Pentium 4 processor and 256MB of RAM.

Ok, I think I solved the RAM problem, but I have another problem now. I found some old DDR2 memory (what I took out of my other desktop) and put them in the 256mb slots, and I think it has 2gb of memory now. On the command line I typed free -m -t, and it indicated around 2000 or so. I was unsure if this newer memory would be compatible, but the system seems to read it. If there is another command I can type to figure out if there is a problem with the memory, then please let me know. At first when I booted it up with this, the LXDE screen was black and there was no mouse pointer. I figured out where the mouse was by maneuvering it down and to the left, so that when it was on the kicker, it highlighted it. I used this to log out and try logging back into KDE. When I did that, my mouse and keyboard totally locked up and I had to hit the reset button. When it rebooted, I booted it into failsafe, and it ran KDE just fine. Then I rebooted into regular KDE, and so far it seems to be running just fine. What is the difference between a failsafe boot and a regular boot? Thanks to everyone for your help and discussions. George -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2011/08/29 08:33 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:

George OLson wrote:

...

Ok, I think I solved the RAM problem, but I have another problem now. I found some old DDR2 memory (what I took out of my other desktop) and put them in the 256mb slots, and I think it has 2gb of memory now. On the command line I typed free -m -t, and it indicated around 2000 or so. I was unsure if this newer memory would be compatible, but the system seems to read it. If there is another command I can type to figure out if there is a problem with the memory, then please let me know.

Your BIOS would most likely have detected any serious issue on start-up, so given that you have a running system, I would say you're fine.

A BIOS POST RAM test is rudimentary, and unlikely to do as you say except for compatibility evaluation or major failure. Without running memtest86 or a similar RAM testing program that doesn't depend on an OS or the BIOS you can't be sure it's OK. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 08/29/2011 06:30 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2011/08/29 08:33 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:

...

George OLson wrote:

A BIOS POST RAM test is rudimentary, and unlikely to do as you say except for compatibility evaluation or major failure. Without running memtest86 or a similar RAM testing program that doesn't depend on an OS or the BIOS you can't be sure it's OK.

Ok, thanks. That is good to know. I was kind of surprised because my ddr2 ram was about 3 or 4 years newer than the desktop I was putting it in. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 08/29/2011 11:33 PM, Tejas Guruswamy wrote:

A couple of points worked in your favour:

Different memory types (SDR, DDR, DDR2, DDR3 ...) are keyed differently - that is, they have physically different slots. So if it fits without forcing into your MB, it's the right type.

Also, memory speeds don't have to match. If you have multiple mismatching sticks on your mobo, they all run at the speed of the slowest. Hence the usual recommendation to buy matching ram speeds, but it's not necessary.

Ah, cool! I didn't know that - I thought they always had to be matching speeds. I am learning a lot through all this!

And if you stick with generic consumer RAM and consumer mobo's (no ECC, no crazy timing settings), you are very unlikely to encounter brand incompatibilities.

So if it fits in the slot, it'll probably work ;) the benefits of standardization ...

Regards, Tejas

Thanks again! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2011/08/29 17:58 (GMT-0500) David C. Rankin composed:

A couple of other point with older boxes. You can make them very responsive by focusing on the normal bottlenecks of disk I/O and graphics I/O. A dependable 7200 rpm drive compatible with your system will do as much for you as is possible on the disk side. On the graphics side, you can get a used nvidia card for the box for less than $20 that will make a huge amount of difference with graphics response. The hardwaresecrets site used to have a comparison chart for all the gpu's going back 5-6 years that compared memory clock/pixel clock/shader clocks etc.. that was a great reference for older cards. What you care about is 'memory bandwidth' or 'memory transfer rate'. Here it is:

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/132

(there is also an ati page, but I'd stay with nvidia)

In recent months, probably at least 8, many older NVidia cards are a disaster. Neither of mine work in 12.1, *buntu 11.04, Fedora 15 or Mandriva 2011.0 with FOSS drivers, and I refuse to use proprietary drivers of any kind while running any Linux. X bugs in freedesktop, kernel & openSUSE for nouveau for NVidia chips I don't have seem to get a lot of activity. Buying an older NVidia card now could be a lot of grief. OTOH, X on all my puters with ATI or Intel video work OK. I don't do games, and I use my TV for watching TV - it's big enough to be suitable for that purpose. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 30/08/11 13:04, George OLson wrote:

On 08/30/2011 06:58 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

George,

A couple of other point with older boxes. You can make them very responsive by focusing on the normal bottlenecks of disk I/O and graphics I/O. A dependable 7200 rpm drive compatible with your system will do as much for you as is possible on the disk side. On the graphics side, you can get a used nvidia card for the box for less than $20 that will make a huge amount of difference with graphics response. The hardwaresecrets site used to have a comparison chart for all the gpu's going back 5-6 years that compared memory clock/pixel clock/shader clocks etc.. that was a great reference for older cards. What you care about is 'memory bandwidth' or 'memory transfer rate'. Here it is:

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/132

(there is also an ati page, but I'd stay with nvidia)

If you can get a card with a memory transfer rate in the 18GB/s range, you will be fine. (14 GB/s range is OK, anything less -- well, you could do better) You want a 256-bit card, not a 128 bit card. I did a short write-up on why that matters a few years back: http://www.3111skyline.com/hardware/graphics.php

I have an old dell PIII-800 w/384M that I put an old nvidia 5900 Ultra graphics card in. Running kde3, that box works fine (it has long since been replaced by other boxes many times over -- but I still have it because it simply -- won't die!) System responsiveness is enjoyable. It handles all the apps you could want (just one or two at a time :)

Thanks! I will have to look up the hardwaresecrets site. I am glad it works better now!

George

Tom's Hardware also publish a very useful "Graphics Card Hierarchy Chart" at the end of their buyers guide each month. http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/gaming-performance-radeon-geforce,review-32251... As the author states: "I don’t recommend upgrading your graphics card unless the replacement card is at least three tiers higher. Otherwise, the upgrade is somewhat parallel and you may not notice a worthwhile difference in performance." And as David says, a top-of-the-line card from a few years ago still outperforms the low-end cards from today, and can be had extremely cheaply. The only difference is in software support (it may not support the latest DirectX 11 / OpenGL 4 / whatever), but if you're not playing the latest games, that's fine. Regards, Tejas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 2:22 AM, George OLson wrote:

Ok, I think I solved the RAM problem, but I have another problem now. I found some old DDR2 memory (what I took out of my other desktop) and put them in the 256mb slots, and I think it has 2gb of memory now. On the command line I typed free -m -t, and it indicated around 2000 or so. I was unsure if this newer memory would be compatible, but the system seems to read it. If there is another command I can type to figure out if there is a problem with the memory, then please let me know.

If you type: cat /proc/meminfo if will display the total amount of RAM installed as well as several other stats like free, cached and more. It's a lot. If you see a large amount as cached and such, then that's fine because you have plenty of RAM and the system will reduce the cache sizes as it needs more RAM.

At first when I booted it up with this, the LXDE screen was black and there was no mouse pointer. I figured out where the mouse was by maneuvering it down and to the left, so that when it was on the kicker, it highlighted it. I used this to log out and try logging back into KDE. When I did that, my mouse and keyboard totally locked up and I had to hit the reset button. When it rebooted, I booted it into failsafe, and it ran KDE just fine. Then I rebooted into regular KDE, and so far it seems to be running just fine.

If you have a CD or DVD of the install, boot it and select MEMTEST which is an option. This is a special boot program that will test the memory and give you stats about the type and speed. If you have any bad RAM, memtest will find it.

What is the difference between a failsafe boot and a regular boot?

failsafe turns off all performance options like DMA, etc. It's used for troubleshooting. If the system works fine now, I would just run memtest and verfiy the RAM is good. Otherwise, you are probably good to go. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler said the following on 08/28/2011 09:49 PM:

Sad part is that I can get a 2x2GB DDR3 kit for $20, but a 1GB DDR or DDR2 stick can run $15-20.

Add to that, the older motherboards which require DDR2, DDR or PC100 may not be able to handle large amounts of memory. There gets to be a point where a new motherboard with 8G or more (how many VMs are you running?) is cheaper than trying to put 8G in an old board that can't hack it. Then there are matters like 'can it handle SATA, USB3 ? The old equipment may be fine for many jobs. But don't expect it to work with the bleeding edge. (For various values of 'bleeding edge'.) -- The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. -- Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org