Kai Ponte wrote:

I doubt they'd release a buggy 4.0 on a major distribution point version such as 11.0.

10.1 YOU and zmd! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Feb 11, 2008 5:04 PM, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Kai Ponte wrote:

...

I doubt they'd release a buggy 4.0 on a major distribution point version such as 11.0.

10.1 YOU and zmd!

Exactly. This is what I fear most. I have *skipped* SUSE Linux 10.1 entirely due to the unresolved bugs in it (in package manager). I wouldn't like to skip openSUSE 11.0 as well, and if KDE4 will be default, it is likely to happen. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, 12. February 2008 19:22:09 Alexey Eremenko wrote:

Opened bug: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=361197

And again without any details about crashes, bugs and missing feature you want to have found. I'm about to close this bug report as INVALID as you of course have the option to select a KDE3 desktop during DVD installation. Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Feb 12, 2008 9:23 PM, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

And again without any details about crashes, bugs and missing feature you want to have found. I'm about to close this bug report as INVALID as you of course have the option to select a KDE3 desktop during DVD installation.

Specific issues u say?

1. Let's start, that there is no Help files for KDE4 2. Konsole 4 crashes (no core files get generated) 3. No "align icon to grid" option in KDE4 Desktop. 4. Ugly icons. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Feb 12, 2008 9:34 PM, Stephan Binner wrote:

On Tuesday, 12. February 2008 20:26:23 Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

1. Let's start, that there is no Help files for KDE4 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=361245 2. Konsole 4 crashes (no core files get generated) https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=360405

And you really think those are not fixable in 4 months... Those are small issues.

...

3. No "align icon to grid" option in KDE4 Desktop. 4. Ugly icons.

... and these are blockers? No. But lack of good KDE experience *is* a blocker issue.

-- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Another critical problem: Inability to add application shortcut to KDE4 taskbar: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=361257 -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Feb 12, 2008 10:48 PM, Anton Moiseev wrote:

You can dgrag and drop any plasmoids from the plasma config window to the the panel.

Really ?! And how can I add an _application_, like Konsole4 to taskbar quick-launch ? Not to mention that KDE4 Theming (Window decorations) is poorly visible: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=361262 -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 12 February 2008 22:01:35 Alexey Eremenko wrote:

Worse yet, even the KDE4 System Settings is crashing: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=361266

And some people still think KDE4 is OK ?

I think so. The build in 11.0 leaves a few things to be desired, but the build in the build service for 10.3 is much better. I expect the 11.0 version to settle down by alpha3, at least as far as the crashes go Anders -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Feb 13, 2008 3:35 PM, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Tuesday 12 February 2008 22:01:35 Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

Worse yet, even the KDE4 System Settings is crashing: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=361266

And some people still think KDE4 is OK ?

I think so. The build in 11.0 leaves a few things to be desired, but the build in the build service for 10.3 is much better. I expect the 11.0 version to settle down by alpha3, at least as far as the crashes go

Is the 11.0 Build going to default to this alpha-stage pile, and give newbies (who don't know better) a totally HORRIBLE impression of both Suse and Linux?

Or are you going to do the smart thing?

Aaron, The road map says they will decide in April. Whats the rush? Let them at least experiment for another 6 weeks. That is what Alpha code is for isn't it? Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

For a project as big as KDE, what code is going to go from Alpha to Release quality in less than 2 months. Expecially one which is still MISSING vast expanses of functionality?

KDE 4 is not ready for prime time yet, nor will it be ready for prime time 8 weeks from now.

This is a complete no-brainer.

Absolutely Agree ! The best solution would be allow choice between KDE3/KDE4, just like there is choise between GNOME/KDE in 10.3. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

M9. wrote:

Alexey Eremenko schreef: |> For a project as big as KDE, what code is going to go from Alpha |> to Release quality in less than 2 months. Expecially one which |> is still MISSING vast expanses of functionality? |> |> KDE 4 is not ready for prime time yet, nor will it be ready |> for prime time 8 weeks from now. |> |> This is a complete no-brainer. | | Absolutely Agree ! | | The best solution would be allow choice between KDE3/KDE4, just like | there is choise between GNOME/KDE in 10.3. |

The choice will be there, don't be afraid...

Glad to hear it. Based on the demo of KDE 4 I saw at the Ontario Linux Fest, back in October, what I saw of KDE 4 makes it a show stopper. I wouldn't want an OS where that crap is the only choice. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

M9. wrote:

| Glad to hear it. Based on the demo of KDE 4 I saw at the Ontario Linux | Fest, back in October, what I saw of KDE 4 makes it a show stopper. I | wouldn't want an OS where that crap is the only choice. | |

Many issues were fixed since then, but there is still a long way to go, before it can match its predessessor...

It wasn't the capabilities or performance that bothered me, it appeared to be incredibly dumbed down and extremely ugly. If that's any indication of what KDE 4 is about, I don't want any part of it. If I want my computer to treat me like an idiot, I can always run Windows! Judging from the crowd at the presentation (conducted by Marcel Gagne), I wasn't the only one who felt that way. If what I saw is representative of the final product, it is crap!!! -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Have you ever thought that they are trying to make it so anyone can use it not just us geeks? Most people I know just know how to turn on the computer. I've use KDE 4 and I like what I see, but it still needs plenty of work. -----Original Message----- From: M9. [mailto:monkey9@iae.nl] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:52 PM To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] openSUSE 11.0 and the Non-ready KDE4 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 James Knott schreef: | M9. wrote: | |> | Glad to hear it. Based on the demo of KDE 4 I saw at the Ontario Linux |> | Fest, back in October, what I saw of KDE 4 makes it a show stopper. I |> | wouldn't want an OS where that crap is the only choice. |> | |> | |> |> Many issues were fixed since then, but there is still a long way to go, |> before it can match its predessessor... |> | | It wasn't the capabilities or performance that bothered me, it appeared | to be incredibly dumbed down and extremely ugly. If that's any | indication of what KDE 4 is about, I don't want any part of it. If I | want my computer to treat me like an idiot, I can always run Windows! | Judging from the crowd at the presentation (conducted by Marcel Gagne), | I wasn't the only one who felt that way. | | If what I saw is representative of the final product, it is crap!!! | | That is a steel-hard opinion... - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. ~ OS: Linux 2.6.22.17-0.1-default x86_64 ~ Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@AMD64x2-sfn1 ~ Systeem: openSUSE 10.3 (x86_64) ~ KDE: 3.5.7 "release 72.6" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHtI3aX5/X5X6LpDgRAsk7AKDHe/FIhwDJEZMDzVdUIbf2IHDYeACeOT+x 3mH4cogQ2C9pVK5KQVkZebc= =0pwr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James R Thompson wrote:

Have you ever thought that they are trying to make it so anyone can use it not just us geeks? Most people I know just know how to turn on the computer. I've use KDE 4 and I like what I see, but it still needs plenty of work.

And what about the experienced user, who finds such things continually getting in the way? I'm not against such "help" for new users, just make it possible to turn the damn thing off. This is one of the reasons I don't care for Windows. There are simply too many things that get in the way of someone who knows what they're doing. Bottom line, if KDE 4 treats me like an idiot and I can't disable that "feature", I won't be using it. -- Use OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

James R Thompson wrote:

Have you ever thought that they are trying to make it so anyone can use it not just us geeks?

Nobody FORCES a user to configure KDE -- people go into the configuration when they want to tune it to what THEY want. There is no "typical user" no matter how much the people at Gnome insist this mythical creature exists. EVERY user has some specific, non-standard need. The more configurability that goes down the tubes, the more non-standard needs are not met. And EVERY user has at least one non-standard need. Taking away configurability also harms the newbie much more than the computer-savvy.

Most people I know just know how to turn on the computer. I've use KDE 4 and I like what I see, but it still needs plenty of work.

-----Original Message----- From: M9. [mailto:monkey9@iae.nl] Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:52 PM To: opensuse@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse] openSUSE 11.0 and the Non-ready KDE4

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

James Knott schreef: | M9. wrote: | |> | Glad to hear it. Based on the demo of KDE 4 I saw at the Ontario Linux |> | Fest, back in October, what I saw of KDE 4 makes it a show stopper. I |> | wouldn't want an OS where that crap is the only choice. |> | |> | |> |> Many issues were fixed since then, but there is still a long way to go, |> before it can match its predessessor... |> | | It wasn't the capabilities or performance that bothered me, it appeared | to be incredibly dumbed down and extremely ugly. If that's any | indication of what KDE 4 is about, I don't want any part of it. If I | want my computer to treat me like an idiot, I can always run Windows! | Judging from the crowd at the presentation (conducted by Marcel Gagne), | I wasn't the only one who felt that way. | | If what I saw is representative of the final product, it is crap!!! | |

That is a steel-hard opinion...

- --

Have a nice day,

M9. Now, is the only time that exists.

~ OS: Linux 2.6.22.17-0.1-default x86_64 ~ Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@AMD64x2-sfn1 ~ Systeem: openSUSE 10.3 (x86_64) ~ KDE: 3.5.7 "release 72.6"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHtI3aX5/X5X6LpDgRAsk7AKDHe/FIhwDJEZMDzVdUIbf2IHDYeACeOT+x 3mH4cogQ2C9pVK5KQVkZebc= =0pwr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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M9. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Aaron Kulkis schreef: | James R Thompson wrote: |> Have you ever thought that they are trying to make it so anyone can |> use it |> not just us geeks? | | Nobody FORCES a user to configure KDE -- people go into the | configuration when they want to tune it to what THEY want. | There is no "typical user" no matter how much the people at | Gnome insist this mythical creature exists. EVERY user has | some specific, non-standard need. The more configurability | that goes down the tubes, the more non-standard needs are | not met. And EVERY user has at least one non-standard need. | | Taking away configurability also harms the newbie much more | than the computer-savvy.

That is absolutely correct. But now there are two things that have to be done: 1) Useability: Apps must start, work, and not crash, and all must work as much possible together. 2) The desktop must be configuerable, to meet as much as possible anybodies need.

So if we work together, to find and kill the bugs, the sooner we have what we want/need/desire, i guess, no?

Righto! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 14 February 2008, James Knott said:

M9. wrote:

...

| Glad to hear it. Based on the demo of KDE 4 I saw at the Ontario Linux | Fest, back in October, what I saw of KDE 4 makes it a show stopper. I | wouldn't want an OS where that crap is the only choice.

Many issues were fixed since then, but there is still a long way to go, before it can match its predessessor...

It wasn't the capabilities or performance that bothered me, it appeared to be incredibly dumbed down and extremely ugly.

I tried to point this out in a few posts late last year but have been a bit quiet on the lists lately: the lack of configurability of the KDE 4.0 'desktop' is not down to a design decision to dumb down KDE^W^W^Walienate all our users. Nor is the default colour scheme brown. It's just a temporary, superficial regression. The underlying configurability mechanisms still present but the config UI was not done in time for 4.0.0. Please don't read anything else into it. If you see any specific things that you fear are unfixably dumbed down please list them here and I'll respond in detail. HTH Will -- Desktop Engineer KDE Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

M9. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Alexey Eremenko schreef: |> For a project as big as KDE, what code is going to go from Alpha |> to Release quality in less than 2 months. Expecially one which |> is still MISSING vast expanses of functionality? |> |> KDE 4 is not ready for prime time yet, nor will it be ready |> for prime time 8 weeks from now. |> |> This is a complete no-brainer. | | Absolutely Agree ! | | The best solution would be allow choice between KDE3/KDE4, just like | there is choise between GNOME/KDE in 10.3. |

The choice will be there, don't be afraid...

But which is going to be the default? Something that is mature and debugged, or something which is flashy, but incomplete and buggy? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 13 February 2008 12:35:04 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Anders Johansson wrote:

Is the 11.0 Build going to default to this alpha-stage pile, and give newbies (who don't know better) a totally HORRIBLE impression of both Suse and Linux?

Aaron: you're not a software developer are you? Just a hunch. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 13 February 2008 10:56:11 pm Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

...

Is the 11.0 Build going to default to this alpha-stage

pile, and give newbies (who don't know better) a totally HORRIBLE impression of both Suse and Linux?

you're not a software developer are you?

I'm a BETA tester, so he is correct. KDE4 works like Alpha version.

The comment was made to Aaron. 11 is now an alpha version. It behaves exactly as I would expect and I see no reason to be out there bashing the developers for a product that hasn't even been released yet. Having been doing software development since '79 and professionally since '93, I know this is the path one takes. You put the version out there - call them alpha, beta, RCx, whatever - and test the crap out of them until you get something workable. Hopefully, the Novell and SUSE devs will have it all worked out by the time RC1 comes around. At this time we're looking at an *Alpha* code that is expected to have bugs and other interaction issues. Even though KDE 4.0 is released, we've yet to see KDE 4.0 (final) in openSUSE 11.0 until these Alpha versions. There will be interaction issues and they may (or may not) be able to complete these by release time. As oft stated, they'll make the decision as to go forward in a month or so. I'll be the first to start a flamefest on an application that doesn't work the way it should (Zypper under 10.0 and Beagle for example) but there's no basis for making gripes about releasing buggy alpha software, since it is expected to be buggy. If you (or Aaron) don't like how 11.0A2 works, then get yerselves on the Factory mailing lists (http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate/Mailinglists#Development_Lists) and start discussing there how you will help with the effort. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

On Wednesday 13 February 2008 10:56:11 pm Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

...

...

Is the 11.0 Build going to default to this alpha-stage

pile, and give newbies (who don't know better) a totally HORRIBLE impression of both Suse and Linux?

you're not a software developer are you? I'm a BETA tester, so he is correct. KDE4 works like Alpha version.

The comment was made to Aaron.

11 is now an alpha version. It behaves exactly as I would expect and I see no reason to be out there bashing the developers for a product that hasn't even been released yet.

I'm not bashing the KDE devs. I'm just saying that for anyone to expect them to do turn KDE 4 from Alpha-level to release quality by the time of SuSE's 11.0 decision date (first week of April) is just completely unrealistic. As far as I know, KDE does not have any full-time devs on the payroll. That means that the devs are all doing something else to earn a paycheck during the day.

Having been doing software development since '79 and professionally since '93, I know this is the path one takes. You put the version out there - call them alpha, beta, RCx, whatever - and test the crap out of them until you get something workable.

Hopefully, the Novell and SUSE devs will have it all worked out by the time RC1 comes around. At this time we're looking at an *Alpha* code that is expected to have bugs and other interaction issues. Even though KDE 4.0 is

Exactly. It's part of the development process.

released, we've yet to see KDE 4.0 (final) in openSUSE 11.0 until these Alpha versions. There will be interaction issues and they may (or may not) be able to complete these by release time. As oft stated, they'll make the decision as to go forward in a month or so.

I'll be the first to start a flamefest on an application that doesn't work the way it should (Zypper under 10.0 and Beagle for example) but there's no basis for making gripes about releasing buggy alpha software, since it is expected to be buggy.

The point is, it's NOT going to be a production-ready desktop by the SuSE 11.0 decision date (April 7th or so). I have no problem with including it. But unless a miracle occurs, the wise choice is to make the default KDE desktop KDE 3, or else you're going to burn a lot of first-time users -- who will then either not trust SuSE (if coming from another distro) or not trust Linux period (if coming from Windows).

If you (or Aaron) don't like how 11.0A2 works, then get yerselves on the Factory mailing lists (http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate/Mailinglists#Development_Lists) and start discussing there how you will help with the effort.

It's been too long since I've programmed anything of that sort of size. I would end up introducing more problems than I solved. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

As far as I know, KDE does not have any full-time devs on the payroll.

Well, AFAIK, both KDE .e.v, Novell, and Trolltech (Nokia) _have_ full time KDE developers on the payroll. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner wrote:

On Thursday 14 February 2008 17:44:57 Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

As far as I know, KDE does not have any full-time devs on the payroll.

KDE project has not even part-time devs on the payroll.

...

That means that the devs are all doing something else to earn a paycheck during the day.

You have no clue,

Ok, so give me a clue...

there are many devs payed by companies to work on KDE.

How many? And are there enough to get KDE 4 up to release quality by April 7? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner wrote:

On Friday 15 February 2008 18:35:54 Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

...

there are many devs payed by companies to work on KDE. How many?

Is there a number which would make you stop your fudding?

I'm just ASKING QUESTIONS which you are trying to avoid.

...

And are there enough to get KDE 4 up to release quality by April 7?

Bye,

Your Non-answer in an attempt to avoid the question indicates a complete lack of confidence that KDE 4 will be anywhere close to release quality in time. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 16 February 2008, Aaron Kulkis said:

Stephan Binner wrote:

...

On Friday 15 February 2008 18:35:54 Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

...

there are many devs payed by companies to work on KDE.

How many?

Is there a number which would make you stop your fudding?

I'm just ASKING QUESTIONS which you are trying to avoid.

Answer: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE_Team . The 5th bullet point in the list doesn't apply to the first group of KDE Team Members but the guys from the other teams who have some degree of interest/involvement in KDE.

...

...

And are there enough to get KDE 4 up to release quality by April 7?

Bye,

Your Non-answer in an attempt to avoid the question indicates a complete lack of confidence that KDE 4 will be anywhere close to release quality in time.

Nope, he always answers questions with another question. It keeps us on our toes. If you ask anyone in the KDE project who does the detail work of dotting the i's, crossing the t's, fixing things that nobody else realised were obvious until fixed, and generally improving KDE's release quality, chances are Stephan Binner's name will be near the top of that list. Will -- Desktop Engineer KDE Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 16 February 2008 12:25:55 pm Stephan Binner wrote:

On Friday 15 February 2008 18:35:54 Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

...

there are many devs payed by companies to work on KDE.

How many?

Is there a number which would make you stop your fudding?

fudding - heh, I like that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte escribió:

(Zypper under 10.0 and Beagle for example)

There was no zypper in 10.0 . -- "Morality is merely an interpretation of certain phenomena — more precisely, a misinterpretation." - Friedrich Nietzsche Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kai Ponte wrote:

On Wednesday 13 February 2008 12:35:04 pm Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

Is the 11.0 Build going to default to this alpha-stage pile, and give newbies (who don't know better) a totally HORRIBLE impression of both Suse and Linux?

Aaron: you're not a software developer are you?

Myself -- no. I used to do a lot of programming years ago, and in recent years, I've worked in close association with developers, but no, at the present, I'm not a software developer. However, what does that have to do with the impossibility of KDE 4 going from incomplete, alpha status to production ready in only 7 weeks? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Aaron Kulkis escribió:

Or are you going to do the smart thing?

We can all do things better if users stop wasting time ranting and actually start doing something productive for the distribution. -- "Morality is merely an interpretation of certain phenomena — more precisely, a misinterpretation." - Friedrich Nietzsche Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 13 February 2008 21:33:27 Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

Worse yet, even the KDE4 System Settings is crashing: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=361266

And some people still think KDE4 is OK ?

The KDE devs need to be hit witha clue-bat.

No, you do

This should be called KDE 4.0 Alpha.

Significantly missing functionality and crashes of critical software (konsole) means not ready for Beta-test designation.

The missing functionality I can (partly) agree with, but the crashes are mostly an 11.0 phenomenon. I've been running KDE4 on 10.3 from the build service for a while now, and while I have seen a few problems, mostly it's been working very well. Certainly not the crash fest that seems to be going on in 11.0 (which by the way *is* an alpha) I personally suspect the new version of gcc Anders -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Kevin Dupuy wrote:

On Feb 13, 2008, at 5:27 PM, Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Wednesday 13 February 2008 21:33:27 Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

The KDE devs need to be hit witha clue-bat.

No, you do

...

This should be called KDE 4.0 Alpha.

Significantly missing functionality and crashes of critical software (konsole) means not ready for Beta-test designation.

The missing functionality I can (partly) agree with, but the crashes are mostly an 11.0 phenomenon. I've been running KDE4 on 10.3 from the build service for a while now, and while I have seen a few problems, mostly it's been working very well. Certainly not the crash fest that seems to be going on in 11.0 (which by the way *is* an alpha)

I personally suspect the new version of gcc

Anders

I agree. Obviously, Aaron has some fascination with verbally threatening developers he doesn't agree with... but anyway. I haven't run 11.0 alphas yet, I'm probably going to start with Alpha 3, but I did run 4.0 under 10.3 and I thought it worked pretty well. Missing features, I saw some. I'm not typically a KDE user, but some I did see.

You obviously have no sense of humor. "hitting users with clue-bats" has been a part of computer-science and computer-engineering lore for decades.

I'm optimistic about KDE 4.x's 11.0 progress and I think it will work well when the release is here. Of course, I'm also a Ron Paul supporter, so maybe some optimism is running abundant right now...

I have more faith in Ron Paul than I do in the KDE's devs (or those of any other project of similar size) taking an incomplete alpha-stage project to release quality in 8 weeks. It just is NOT going to happen. "Hey Boss, sorry I didn't come in to work last week... I was at home trying to get KDE 4 whipped into shape in time for the SuSE 11.0 release." "Why are you here? We fired you 3 days ago." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson escribió:

I personally suspect the new version of gcc

do you have any real proof that the compiler is the thing to blame ? otherwise your suspicions are just BS. -- "Morality is merely an interpretation of certain phenomena — more precisely, a misinterpretation." - Friedrich Nietzsche Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philippe Landau wrote:

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

Anders Johansson escribió:

...

I personally suspect the new version of gcc do you have any real proof that the compiler is the thing to blame ? otherwise your suspicions are just BS. Does "BS" stand for bull shit ?

Yes

Is this the language desired on this list when addressing thoughts expressed by list mates ?

I think you're over-reacting. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 12 February 2008 11:34:52 am Stephan Binner wrote:

On Tuesday, 12. February 2008 20:26:23 Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

1. Let's start, that there is no Help files for KDE4 2. Konsole 4 crashes (no core files get generated)

And you really think those are not fixable in 4 months...

heh - that's why <insert diety here> created caffeine... :P

...

3. No "align icon to grid" option in KDE4 Desktop. 4. Ugly icons.

... and these are blockers?

I think the konsole crashes might be. I did notice them originally after install (under virtual box) but haven't seen anything today or yesterday. Hence, I'm unable to file any bug reports. I promise I'll use it more. I've been waitign for KDE 4 since KDE 2 came out. This looks really cool. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Feb 13, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Kai Ponte wrote:

...

I think the konsole crashes might be. I did notice them originally after install (under virtual box) but haven't seen anything today or yesterday. Hence, I'm unable to file any bug reports. I promise I'll use it more. I've been waitign for KDE 4 since KDE 2 came out. This looks really cool.

but if it doesn't FUNCTION properly, all the cool sheetmetal in the world doesn't cover up for the fact that an incomplete vehicle is not fulfilling the customer's expectations.

Same goes for software.

I hate to use the "early alpha SUSE & 4.0 KDE" excuse, but it is still early. I disagree the icons are early, though, even as a normally GNOME user who like the Tango icons, I also really like the Oxygen theme. What icons are ugly to you, Aaron? As far as the no align to grid option, from what I've used of KDE 4 (4.0 installed on 10.3), the icons are supposed to be treated more like the widgets, rather than icons. -- Kevin "Yo" Dupuy | Public Mail: Hope for America: Ron Paul for President -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner wrote:

On Tuesday, 12. February 2008 20:26:23 Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

1. Let's start, that there is no Help files for KDE4 2. Konsole 4 crashes (no core files get generated)

And you really think those are not fixable in 4 months...

...

3. No "align icon to grid" option in KDE4 Desktop. 4. Ugly icons.

... and these are blockers?

Is that the FIRST IMPRESSION you want a new user to have of SuSE releases? a) yes B) NO -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

M9. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Aaron Kulkis schreef: | Stephan Binner wrote: |> On Tuesday, 12. February 2008 20:26:23 Alexey Eremenko wrote: |> |>> 1. Let's start, that there is no Help files for KDE4 |>> 2. Konsole 4 crashes (no core files get generated) |> |> And you really think those are not fixable in 4 months... |> |>> 3. No "align icon to grid" option in KDE4 Desktop. |>> 4. Ugly icons. |> |> ... and these are blockers? | | Is that the FIRST IMPRESSION you want a new user to | have of SuSE releases? | | a) yes | B) NO

c) No opinion ;)

Wrong answer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 12 February 2008 20:26, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

On Feb 12, 2008 9:23 PM, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

...

And again without any details about crashes, bugs and missing feature you want to have found. I'm about to close this bug report as INVALID as you of course have the option to select a KDE3 desktop during DVD installation.

Specific issues u say?

1. Let's start, that there is no Help files for KDE4 2. Konsole 4 crashes (no core files get generated) 3. No "align icon to grid" option in KDE4 Desktop. 4. Ugly icons.

And you are going to put these in the bug report right? If not, he is well within his right to close the report as invalid. Sending a message that a package doesn't work really doesn't help the maintainer provide a fix. Putting them here also does no good as not all the folks at SuSE read this list. Mike -- Powered by SuSE 10.0 Kernel 2.6.13 X86_64 KDE 3.4 Kmail 1.8 8:35pm up 181 days 1:08, 5 users, load average: 2.15, 2.20, 2.20 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Feb 12, 2008 1:13 PM, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

On Feb 11, 2008 5:04 PM, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

...

Kai Ponte wrote:

...

I doubt they'd release a buggy 4.0 on a major distribution point version such as 11.0.

10.1 YOU and zmd!

Exactly. This is what I fear most. I have *skipped* SUSE Linux 10.1 entirely due to the unresolved bugs in it (in package manager). I wouldn't like to skip openSUSE 11.0 as well, and if KDE4 will be default, it is likely to happen.

You guys are getting paranoid.

The YOU / zmd stuff was a special case because of what it does. ie. They handle security releases and SUSE does not provide security releases for the alpha/beta/rc releases. Thus no true testing. (Yes, they did provide a couple small test patches, but it was not much of a test.)

Obviously.

KDE4 is being fully tested via the alpha / beta /rc process and it is already in the roadmap to decide on a plan by April. The options are 3.5, 4.0, 4.1

If KDE 4 is in Alpha right now, and missing some of the most fundamental functionality, do you really expect it to be anywhere past Beta in a mere 8 weeks?

If you want to ensure they make the "right" decision (whatever that is), then you should be making as many real / specific bugzillas as appropriate. That way when April rolls around the team making the decision will know the true status of KDE4, instead of just have a bunch of generic "the sky is falling" comments.

I'm not saying that the roof is caving in. I'm saying that it's not even built yet -- and there's another load of scaffolding outside that still has to be put up FIRST.

Greg

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Feb 11, 2008 5:12 PM, M. Skiba wrote:

Am Montag, 11. Februar 2008 14:29:13 schrieb Kai Ponte:

...

On Monday 11 February 2008 03:10:26 am Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

Hi all !

Just installed openSUSE 11.0, with a KDE 4 desktop, and I can say that it is not ready.

Not only it is full of bugs and crashes, but it is also lacks features.

Meh - how many crashes did it have for you? It looks pretty, but not very usable. :P

...

Very likely, that KDE 4 will not be ready for openSUSE 11.0 final.

I dunno - Jolt Cola can do wonders to an Operating System...

...

It is highly unlikely that even KDE 4.1 will be stable-enough and feature complete for day-to-day usage.

No - we're gonna have to wait for KDE 5.0, as it will be an odd-numbered version.

...

Please provide an option to choose KDE3 desktop during setup. Otherwise all KDE users will be in big trouble with openSUSE 11.

I doubt they'd release a buggy 4.0 on a major distribution point version such as 11.0. I don't know when OS 11 is about to release, but I know the release plan for KDE 4.1 says it should be released on the 29th of July, of course, it can be delayed during the Alpha, Beta & RC periode - but let's see what happens ;)

Till then I can only recommend to use as much KDE 4.0.x in your spare time (of course if you've work to be done - then use 3.5.x) and report as many problems as possible against BKO ;)

Greetings Michael

OS 11.0 is due out in June. Per the roadmap, they are going to pick the KDE release version by Apr. 7. http://en.opensuse.org/Roadmap/11.0 Greg -- Greg Freemyer Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 11 February 2008 05:12:13 pm M. Skiba wrote:

Am Montag, 11. Februar 2008 14:29:13 schrieb Kai Ponte:

...

On Monday 11 February 2008 03:10:26 am Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

Hi all !

Just installed openSUSE 11.0, with a KDE 4 desktop, and I can say that it is not ready.

Not only it is full of bugs and crashes, but it is also lacks features.

Meh - how many crashes did it have for you? It looks pretty, but not very usable. :P

...

Very likely, that KDE 4 will not be ready for openSUSE 11.0 final.

I dunno - Jolt Cola can do wonders to an Operating System...

...

It is highly unlikely that even KDE 4.1 will be stable-enough and feature complete for day-to-day usage.

No - we're gonna have to wait for KDE 5.0, as it will be an odd-numbered version.

...

Please provide an option to choose KDE3 desktop during setup. Otherwise all KDE users will be in big trouble with openSUSE 11.

I doubt they'd release a buggy 4.0 on a major distribution point version such as 11.0.

I don't know when OS 11 is about to release, but I know the release plan for KDE 4.1 says it should be released on the 29th of July, of course, it can be delayed during the Alpha, Beta & RC periode - but let's see what happens ;)

Till then I can only recommend to use as much KDE 4.0.x in your spare time (of course if you've work to be done - then use 3.5.x) and report as many problems as possible against BKO ;)

Is there a one place,, one bug report somewhere ? where we all just add our comments?? Bob S -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Anders Johansson wrote:

On Monday 11 February 2008 14:29:13 Kai Ponte wrote:

...

I doubt they'd release a buggy 4.0 on a major distribution point version such as 11.0.

SUSE (S.u.S.E. | SuSE | SUSE) has always been early with new KDE releases since day one. Why should this be any different

And far more people would complain if it wasn't included

Discuss if it should be the default or not, not whether it should be included, because it should and it will

Until KDE 4 has caught up to KDE 3 in functionality and configurability, KDE 3 should remain the default. The last thing I want is my KDE-3 configurations to be lost because KDE-4 doesn't know what to do with them, and then when KDE-4 finally catches up, have to re-do those configurations again. Leave KDE-4 as the non-default until it's ready for prime time. Keeping KDE-4 as optional on a distro as large as OpenSUSE will provide pressure on the KDE devs to keep their eye on preserving current functionality instead of fixating exclusively on eye-candy and other bells and whistles which maybe amusing, but of no actual value.

Anders

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue 12 February 08 12:55, Aaron Kulkis wrote:

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

On Monday 11 February 2008 14:29:13 Kai Ponte wrote:

...

I doubt they'd release a buggy 4.0 on a major distribution point version such as 11.0.

SUSE (S.u.S.E. | SuSE | SUSE) has always been early with new KDE releases since day one. Why should this be any different

And far more people would complain if it wasn't included

Discuss if it should be the default or not, not whether it should be included, because it should and it will

Until KDE 4 has caught up to KDE 3 in functionality and configurability, KDE 3 should remain the default.

The last thing I want is my KDE-3 configurations to be lost because KDE-4 doesn't know what to do with them, and then when KDE-4 finally catches up, have to re-do those configurations again.

Leave KDE-4 as the non-default until it's ready for prime time. Keeping KDE-4 as optional on a distro as large as OpenSUSE will provide pressure on the KDE devs to keep their eye on preserving current functionality instead of fixating exclusively on eye-candy and other bells and whistles which maybe amusing, but of no actual value.

Agreed to Aaron here. I got 10.3 installed and kalarm is 'kde4'...and doesn't work as simply as it did/does on SuSE9.3. In the OpenSuse 10.3 version, it wants me to write/use some script. If I knew how to code or whatever, great, but since I'm just a plain home user and can't just click a radio button or two and set the time for an alarm with an up/down arrow, I ditched 10.3. (if anyone's going to say 'get an alarm clock', I have one...*my computer*!) Doesn't anyone remember the KISS principle and 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it!' ? -- "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin Religion - it's not just for breakfast anymore...murderers, dictators, child molesters and all other similar ilk use it daily too! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed 13 February 08 21:09, Rajko M. wrote:

On Wednesday 13 February 2008 09:34:04 am JB2 wrote:

...

  Agreed to Aaron here. I got 10.3 installed and kalarm is 'kde4'...and doesn't work as simply as it did/does on SuSE9.3. In the OpenSuse 10.3 version, it wants me to write/use some script. If I knew how to code or whatever, great, but since I'm just a plain home user and can't just click a radio button or two and set the time for an alarm with an up/down arrow, I ditched 10.3. (if anyone's going to say 'get an alarm clock', I have one...*my computer*!)

  Doesn't anyone remember the KISS principle and 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it!' ?

They would not start new line if old KDE3 would be easy to fix - adjust to modern times. The functionality will be added on the go, as it happens on each new update.

You somehow missed 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'. Kalarm worked just fine since SuSE 7.3. Why did anything have to be taken *out* of it? There was nothing wrong with it, it worked extremely well. SuSE 9.3 is modern...just because it's a few years old means it isn't? Funny how 9.3 is working quite well for me and the "modern" 10.3 didn't.

What they missed is to underscore very early that KDE4 is not next polish of KDE3, but rather new project that will fit better to todays hardware and user expectations,

Again, I say 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'. Kalarm from 7.3 to 9.3 worked well...now it doesn't in 10.3. There was no reason to have changed a thing about it since no one as far as I know or remember never reading about, ever complained about it *not* working. -- "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin Religion - it's not just for breakfast anymore...murderers, dictators, child molesters and all other similar ilk use it daily too! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

JB2 escribió:

Again, I say 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'. Kalarm from 7.3 to 9.3 worked well...now it doesn't in 10.3.

did you filled a bug report ? btw.. my old cassette radio is also working fine, however tapes are more expensive than CDs nowdays.. same applies to software, mantaining an old product is a hell lot of work and **really** expensive. -- "Morality is merely an interpretation of certain phenomena — more precisely, a misinterpretation." - Friedrich Nietzsche Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Thu 14 February 08 20:04, Rajko M. wrote:

On Thursday 14 February 2008 04:03:50 pm Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

JB2 escribió:

...

Again, I say 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'. Kalarm from 7.3 to 9.3 worked well...now it doesn't in 10.3.

did you filled a bug report ?

btw.. my old cassette radio is also working fine, however tapes are more expensive than CDs nowdays.. same applies to software, mantaining an old product is a hell lot of work and **really** expensive.

This is what I attempted to tell. KDE4 is not polished KDE3, it is totally new product. That is the fact that many don't (want to) realize.

Old KDE (KDE3) applications don't work in KDE4. They have to be rewritten, and that is the reason why KDE4 is missing a lot of functionality that is present in KDE3.

Then *why* was kde4 apps substituted in to the 10.3 release!? It makes absolutely no sense, especially since so many of the kde4 things aren't working correctly. All it did was waste space on the DVD that could have been filled with apps that work and people could use. -- "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin Religion - it's not just for breakfast anymore...murderers, dictators, child molesters and all other similar ilk use it daily too! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 15 February 2008 03:04:03 Rajko M. wrote:

Old KDE (KDE3) applications don't work in KDE4.

That's complete nonsense. Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Fri 15 February 08 17:56, Rajko M. wrote:

On Thursday 14 February 2008 11:55:24 pm Stephan Binner wrote:

...

On Friday 15 February 2008 03:04:03 Rajko M. wrote:

...

Old KDE (KDE3) applications don't work in KDE4.

That's complete nonsense.

Bye, Steve

So, for every KDE3 applications that doesn't start in KDE4 I should file bug report ?

As many have implied in one way or another throughout the years...it'd be better than *no* bug reports, correct? -- "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin Religion - it's not just for breakfast anymore...murderers, dictators, child molesters and all other similar ilk use it daily too! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Hi, I've just installed openSUSE 10.3 and I have a problem with the updater. Every time I log in, it tells me that there are security fixes to install, but then when I try to install them I get the following error: "Problem donloading the package file from the repository. Curl error for 'http://download.opensuse.org/update/10.3/rpm/x86_64/java-1_5_0-1.5.0_update1...' Error code: Unrecognized error. Error message: transfer closed with 15736413 bytes remaining to read. Please see above error message for a hint" Sorry if this has been raised before. I couldn't see anything on a quick scan. I've had similar error messages on other packages as well, but retrying has sorted most of the others out (though I'm still stuck on trying to install some things e.g. Eclipse). Is there a fix for this? Cheers Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 16/02/2008, Peter Bradley wrote:

...

Hi,

download.opensuse.org is currently down, try again later or use a mirror. See en.opensuse.org/Mirrors

-- Benjamin Weber I just asked in a new thread if anyone knew links to update mirrors. The wiki list of "release mirrors (international)" do not list any that include "update" repos. And the SDB only lists update mirrors up

On Sat, 2008-02-16 at 01:31 +0000, Benji Weber wrote: through 10.2. Example for Utah State Univ update directory: Parent Directory - [DIR] 10.0-test/ 13-Nov-2007 06:17 - [DIR] 10.0/ 01-Mar-2007 11:23 - [DIR] 10.1-test/ 13-Nov-2007 06:16 - [DIR] 10.1.42/ 13-Jun-2006 05:32 - [DIR] 10.1/ 25-Apr-2006 05:00 - [DIR] 10.2-test/ 13-Nov-2007 06:16 - [DIR] 10.2/ 01-Mar-2007 02:03 - [DIR] 9.3/ 11-Apr-2006 05:40 It does not appear that any mirrors exist for the daily updates... Tom in NM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2008-02-16 at 13:54 +0800, Joe Morris wrote:

On 02/16/2008 01:43 PM, Tom Patton wrote:

...

10.3 is under opensuse, not suse

I had a good week last, so it was about time for a dumb moment... Thanks, Joe! Tom -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Peter Bradley schreef:

Is there still a problem? Because I can't update. It seems to just affect an amarok update and a Java 1.5 security update.

I have an AMD64 dual core system.

Peter

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=360518 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 17 February 2008 20:40:54 Peter Bradley wrote:

Monkey 9 wrote:

...

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=360518

Thank you for taking the time to reply, but unfortunately not much at that url means anything to me. Does it mean that this is a bug and I'll have to wait for a fix? Was it offering a solution? - if so I'm afraid I didn't understand it. The last message wasn't in a language I speak, so I couldn't make anything of that.

I'm new at this, as you can probably tell, so if anyone could explain, I'd be grateful.

The message was in dutch, and was just a copy/paste from the output of zypper. The workaround suggested for the problem of an update that won't go away from the gui was in comment 1: run "zypper up" as root from a command line. It seems to have worked. It installed the update properly Anders -- Madness takes its toll -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday 17 February 2008 02:00:48 pm Peter Bradley wrote:

Anders Johansson wrote:

...

The message was in dutch, and was just a copy/paste from the output of zypper. The workaround suggested for the problem of an update that won't go away from the gui was in comment 1: run "zypper up" as root from a command line. It seems to have worked. It installed the update properly

Anders

Thanks Anders. I can manage Welsh, French and English, but not Dutch, I'm afraid :)

The other thing is that that wasn't my problem. The problem is that I get an error. For instance, I've tried to install Eclipse, but some parts will not download - so now when I try to start Eclipse, I get:

"The Eclipse executable launcher was unable to locate its companion launcher jar."

The error I get on download says:

"Problem downloading the package file from the repository. Curl error for 'http:// .. etc .. etc' Error code: Unrecognized error. Error message: transfer closed with xxxxxxx bytes remaining to read"

When I look in YAST, it's saying that just about everything related to Eclipse is installed (including the Eclipse package itself), but - as I say - something, at least is obviously missing.

Cheers

Peter

The error seems as result of problems with download.opensuse.org server. The easiest from my prospective is to reset any ignored dependencies, and press Accept button and see what happens. If nothing than as next attempt I would remove Eclipse and than install it again. -- Regards, Rajko. See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 15 February 2008 06:27:32 pm Rajko M. wrote:

On Friday 15 February 2008 06:11:32 pm JB2 wrote:

...

  As many have implied in one way or another throughout the years...it'd be better than *no* bug reports, correct?

Is something missing in the sentence?

Slower reading might help me. Thanks to Philippe for longer version. The answer is yes. I was just confused with one comment some time ago that made me think that KDE3 applications are not meant to run under KDE4, which Stephan dismissed. Though I would move this and any further discussion to opensuse-kde@opensuse.org to keep KDE related discussions in one place. I'll be a bit busy to find current state of support for KDE3 applications in KDE4. -- Regards, Rajko. See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 16 February 2008 03:32:54 am M9. wrote:

Rajko M. schreef: | On Friday 15 February 2008 06:11:32 pm JB2 wrote: |> As many have implied in one way or another throughout the

years...it'd be

|> better than *no* bug reports, correct? | | Is something missing in the sentence?

This will result in an increasing buglist....

Which is the goal. Guys that work on debugging are usually very fast to find duplicates and dismiss false report. Sometimes to fast on former, IMHO, but if reporter can provide details they are pretty efficient. -- Regards, Rajko. See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 16 February 2008 10:05:39 am Monkey 9 wrote:

...

Which is the goal. Guys that work on debugging are usually very fast to find duplicates and dismiss false report. Sometimes to fast on former, IMHO, but if reporter can provide details they are pretty efficient.  

Ofcourse, only i notice that on many bugreports, there is not going to be any reaction. Which rises the question on my side:  Why take the effort to make them, if they are not intended to be fixed?

The bug fixing is not always simple. Developer has to make sure that bugfix will be included upstream, to make sure that is as little differences between openSUSE version and upstream one. Sometimes one has to reiterate question/proposal because developer see software from different prospective than user. Than when is all clear (both reporter and developer talk the same language :-) ) there is their management that has to give approval and also upstream project has to agree. Some developers will take time to give you feedback, so you will know that they work on the bug, others not. They will just work on the bug and for you as reporter it seems that nothing is happening. So far I know there is no rule to give feedback and each developer is handling that in his own way. This is example of simple usability bug and, in my opinion, proper user feedback. No many words, ie. time lost to keep reporter informed, but enough to let me know that bug is in process and my report was not waste of time. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=347423 and upstream discussion: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5226 -- Regards, Rajko. See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Monkey 9 schreef:

Rajko M. schreef:

...

On Saturday 16 February 2008 10:05:39 am Monkey 9 wrote:

...

...

Which is the goal. Guys that work on debugging are usually very fast to find duplicates and dismiss false report. Sometimes to fast on former, IMHO, but if reporter can provide details they are pretty efficient.

Ofcourse, only i notice that on many bugreports, there is not going to be any reaction. Which rises the question on my side: Why take the effort to make them, if they are not intended to be fixed?

The bug fixing is not always simple. Developer has to make sure that bugfix will be included upstream, to make sure that is as little differences between openSUSE version and upstream one. Sometimes one has to reiterate question/proposal because developer see software from different prospective than user. Than when is all clear (both reporter and developer talk the same language :-) ) there is their management that has to give approval and also upstream project has to agree. Some developers will take time to give you feedback, so you will know that they work on the bug, others not. They will just work on the bug and for you as reporter it seems that nothing is happening. So far I know there is no rule to give feedback and each developer is handling that in his own way. This is example of simple usability bug and, in my opinion, proper user feedback. No many words, ie. time lost to keep reporter informed, but enough to let me know that bug is in process and my report was not waste of time. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=347423 and upstream discussion: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5226

Yes it is nice when you notice something is trying to something about it. And sometimes very little is nessesary to fix a bug, and sometimes it takes longer... Sorry somebody trying to do something..

[OT] I installed thunderbrowse in thunderbird, very convenient to browse from thunderbird, and go directly to links in same app ;)

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Aaron Kulkis schreef: | Monkey 9 wrote: |> Rajko M. schreef: |>> On Saturday 16 February 2008 10:05:39 am Monkey 9 wrote: |>> |>>>> Which is the goal. Guys that work on debugging are usually very |>>>> fast to |>>>> find duplicates and dismiss false report. Sometimes to fast on former, |>>>> IMHO, but if reporter can provide details they are pretty efficient. |>>>> |>>>> |>>> Ofcourse, only i notice that on many bugreports, there is not going to |>>> be any reaction. |>>> Which rises the question on my side: Why take the effort to make them, |>>> if they are not intended to be fixed? |>>> |>> |>> The bug fixing is not always simple. Developer has to make sure that |>> bugfix will be included upstream, to make sure that is as little |>> differences between openSUSE version and upstream one. Sometimes one |>> has to reiterate question/proposal because developer see software |>> from different prospective than user. Than when is all clear (both |>> reporter and developer talk the same language :-) ) there is their |>> management that has to give approval and also upstream project has to |>> agree. Some developers will take time to give you feedback, so you |>> will know that they work on the bug, others not. They will just work |>> on the bug and for you as reporter it seems that nothing is |>> happening. So far I know there is no rule to give feedback and each |>> developer is handling that in his own way. |>> This is example of simple usability bug and, in my opinion, proper |>> user feedback. No many words, ie. time lost to keep reporter |>> informed, but enough to let me know that bug is in process and my |>> report was not waste of time. |>> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=347423 |>> and upstream discussion: |>> http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=5226 |>> |>> |> Yes it is nice when you notice something is trying to something about it. |> And sometimes very little is nessesary to fix a bug, and sometimes it |> takes longer... |> |> [OT] I installed thunderbrowse in thunderbird, very convenient to |> browse from thunderbird, and go directly to links in same app ;) | | this is why I stayed with the Mozilla suite. | I tried the Thunderbird/Firefox combo, and it was usually | more hassle than it was worth. | | With thunderbrowse, it looks the code is migrating back | to the same place as where Seamonkey is. | | | I started using mozilla in '95. Used netscape, and after the browserwar, i went plain mozilla again, Did many things to make the scale turning in favor of an independant browser, but after netscape went wallstreet, i did not like it so much anymore, and turned again to the original idea and community. - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. ~ OS: Linux 2.6.22.17-0.1-default x86_64 ~ Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@AMD64x2-sfn1 ~ Systeem: openSUSE 10.3 (x86_64) ~ KDE: 3.5.7 "release 72.6" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHuV1ZX5/X5X6LpDgRAvyBAJoDp6IzAHbE+DxtnoYna/cZoDBgqgCbB3wM 82x7VXKBogFQYEKb2YYA2w8= =YL72 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner schreef:

On Saturday 16 February 2008 17:05:39 Monkey 9 wrote:

...

i notice that on many bugreports, there is not going to be any reaction.

Maybe your bug reports would be considered more serious if you don't file everything as blocker? ;-)

Bye, Steve

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On Saturday 16 February 2008 05:49:59 pm Philipp Thomas wrote:

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:36:12 +0100, Monkey 9 wrote:

...

Think i can change that?

Of cause, as you define the initial severity and can change that afterwards again, though other are free to do as well.

Severity yes, but priority should be left to the person that will debug a problem, at least that was told to me when I raised both on certain bug to bring it under developers radar. I guess some internal rule, as both are can be changed by anyone logged in bugzilla. -- Regards, Rajko. See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Philipp Thomas schreef:

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:36:12 +0100, Monkey 9 wrote:

...

Think i can change that?

Of cause, as you define the initial severity and can change that afterwards again, though other are free to do as well.

Philipp

Right. I changed all my bug severities. The only thing i want is to get to a useable system, i will follow the path that works, if shown to me. I do not spend this amount of time to insult or offend anybody, or to *not* reach the goal. I am only interested in getting things better, killing the bugs, and move along to a better system, that is all -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 15 February 2008, JB2 said:

On Thu 14 February 08 16:03, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

JB2 escribió:

...

Again, I say 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'. Kalarm from 7.3 to 9.3 worked well...now it doesn't in 10.3.

did you filled a bug report ?

I was told it and kinternet were being dropped, IIRR, after I filed one. (kinternet is being replaced with knetwormanager, I think it said, can't remember about kalarm)

Right, kinternet is being replaced. I don't recall telling you this about kalarm, however. The KDE 3 KAlarm is in 10.3 in kdepim3-time-management and is more than likely installed right now at /opt/kde3/bin/kalarm. By installing the kde 4 preview packages that were shipped with 10.3, you should be ready for problems, and if you read the 'KDE 4 Applications Path' item in the release notes[1], you'll see why kalarm is 'dropped' - /usr/bin/kalarm from the kde 4 preview packages is masking /opt/kde3/bin/kalarm because of the order of $PATH. I recommend you remove the kde4-* packages, or if you still want to try KDE 4, add the KDE:KDE4:STABLE:Extra-Apps repository and upgrade your KDE 4 packages from prerelease to 4.0.1. This will remove the kde4 kalarm altogether, as kdepim chose not to release in KDE 4.0 at all. Hope that clears things up Will [1] /usr/share/doc/release-notes/openSUSE/RELEASE-NOTES.en.html

-- "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

Religion - it's not just for breakfast anymore...murderers, dictators, child molesters and all other similar ilk use it daily too!

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Cristian Rodríguez schreef: | Alexey Eremenko escribió: |> Hi all ! |> |> Just installed openSUSE 11.0.. | | it is highly ridiculous to expect an alpha product to be ready.. | | As a matter of fact a1 seemed more ready to me than a2, but that might be 'cause around this time the realy new things have been added...? - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. ~ OS: Linux 2.6.22.17-0.1-default x86_64 ~ Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@AMD64x2-sfn1 ~ Systeem: openSUSE 10.3 (x86_64) ~ KDE: 3.5.7 "release 72.6" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHtFQAX5/X5X6LpDgRAhVSAKCtg52xvd8vKYdrZNlszvaV5DukagCbBxgv qGTkh/WkgD2rRB2h0RJh6zM= =Txrl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org