[alg] SOT - MS verus Linux ?
Hey Group; I am trying to convert some people to Linux. As a person that has not used Windows in over eight years I am not certain of the current limitations of Windows when compared to Linux. I know of its basic headaches like crash, poor memory usage, lack of reasonable security, virus problems and license cost. I hear most often concerns about linux - "lack of help". I normally reply with "When was the last time you emailed Bill Gates and got a answer? I have emailed an heard from just about any Linux software maintainer I have ever emailed in less than a day". However, I am in need of some of you that use or used Windows and know of its less obvious problems to add to my "Linux Benefits" list. If possible seperate into versions - 9x, ME, XP, NT/2K and their Sever systems. (Not to mention Microsoft "Services for UNIX 3.0"). Unless it is like yesterdays "Swiss cheese" security flaw. -- 73 de Donn Washburn __ " http://www.hal-pc.org/~n5xwb " Ham Callsign N5XWB / / __ __ __ __ __ __ __ 307 Savoy St. / /__ / / / \/ / / /_/ / \ \/ / Sugar Land, TX 77478 /_____/ /_/ /_/\__/ /_____/ /_/\_\ LL# 1.281.242.3256 a MSDOS Virus "Free Zone" OS Email: n5xwb@hal-pc.org Info: http://www.knoppix.net SOT = (S)ort of (O)ff (T)opic
Hi Donn, My hat off for your efforts advocating Linux. I can't give you my insights on any Windows shortcomings 'cause I've never used this OS extensively. However, based on my experience converting other non-technical people to Linux/BSD, I would say that it's a rather dead bid, unless these people are in a real need for another OS. Look, it took just to months to convert our whole eng. dept. (40 people) to Linux. And over two years just to spark any interest in Linux in my lay neighbours and friends. They still continue dragging their feet and deciding to switch or not to switch. If a person uses PC just to browse porn sites and listen to the music, it's no different from using Web TV. Why would such a person learn something new, digging through mounds of manuals and mailing lists? Let him die by his peaceful and ignorant death. May the source be with you. Alex -------------------
Hey Group;
I am trying to convert some people to Linux. As a person that has not used Windows in over eight years I am not certain of the current limitations of Windows when compared to Linux.
I know of its basic headaches like crash, poor memory usage, lack of reasonable security, virus problems and license cost. I hear most often concerns about linux - "lack of help". I normally reply with "When was the last time you emailed Bill Gates and got a answer? I have emailed an heard from just about any Linux software maintainer I have ever emailed in less than a day".
However, I am in need of some of you that use or used Windows and know of its less obvious problems to add to my "Linux Benefits" list.
If possible seperate into versions - 9x, ME, XP, NT/2K and their Sever systems. (Not to mention Microsoft "Services for UNIX 3.0").
Unless it is like yesterdays "Swiss cheese" security flaw.
-- 73 de Donn Washburn __ " http://www.hal-pc.org/~n5xwb " Ham Callsign N5XWB / / __ __ __ __ __ __ __ 307 Savoy St. / /__ / / / \/ / / /_/ / \ \/ / Sugar Land, TX 77478 /_____/ /_/ /_/\__/ /_____/ /_/\_\ LL# 1.281.242.3256 a MSDOS Virus "Free Zone" OS Email: n5xwb@hal-pc.org Info: http://www.knoppix.net
On Friday 18 July 2003 09:06 am, Alex Daniloff wrote:
Hi Donn, My hat off for your efforts advocating Linux. I can't give you my insights on any Windows shortcomings 'cause I've never used this OS extensively. However, based on my experience converting other non-technical people to Linux/BSD, I would say that it's a rather dead bid, unless these people are in a real need for another OS. Look, it took just to months to convert our whole eng. dept. (40 people) to Linux.
May I inquire a) What sort of engineering department are we talking about (mechanical, electrical, structural)? b) What critical design software packages does your group use and what windows-based packages did you have to abandon? Thanks <snip> -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing"
Hi Tony, Our department is a product engineering deparment at a very well known IC manufacturer. So it's related to EE world. Our group uses CADENCE, LTL, ADS on UNIX/Linux plus other inhouse developed software for circuit design, verification, and process data analysis. We've abandoned practically all windows-based packages. For example Exceed, MS-SQL7 DB, MS Office, MS IIS web server, alongside with Windows itself. Instead of Exceed, we're using custom Expect scripts which export display from the UNIX application servers and launch required applications on our Linux desktops. Insted of MS SQL7, we're using MySQL 4.0.12 database Instead of MS Office, we're using Open Office bound with MySQL. Instead of MS IIS, we're using Apache 2.x web server. Using LAMP (Linux Apache MySQL Perl) approach, we've developed additional web based applications for our needs without dealing with commercial vendors and license fees. We calculated our total savings around $60,000 (software, hardware and license costs) by moving into Linux environment. Regards. Alex
May I inquire a) What sort of engineering department are we talking about (mechanical, electrical, structural)? b) What critical design software packages does your group use and what windows-based packages did you have to abandon?
Thanks
<snip>
-- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing"
On Friday 18 July 2003 01:30 pm, Alex Daniloff wrote:
Hi Tony, Our department is a product engineering deparment at a very well known IC manufacturer. So it's related to EE world. Our group uses CADENCE, LTL, ADS on UNIX/Linux plus other inhouse developed software for circuit design, verification, and process data analysis. We've abandoned practically all windows-based packages. For example Exceed, MS-SQL7 DB, MS Office, MS IIS web server, alongside with Windows itself.
Very cool. So you do not need an Auto-CAD-like thing? -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing"
Tony, Auto-CAD stays for Automated Computer Aided Design tool. It applies not only to mech. engineering, but other eng. fields as well. All our EE packages like CADENCE, Mentor Graphics, LTL, ADS, SPECS and others are in fact Auto-CAD type tools. Alex -------------------
On Friday 18 July 2003 01:30 pm, Alex Daniloff wrote:
Hi Tony, Our department is a product engineering deparment at a very well known IC manufacturer. So it's related to EE world. Our group uses CADENCE, LTL, ADS on UNIX/Linux plus other inhouse developed software for circuit design, verification, and process data analysis. We've abandoned practically all windows-based packages. For example Exceed, MS-SQL7 DB, MS Office, MS IIS web server, alongside with Windows itself.
Very cool. So you do not need an Auto-CAD-like thing?
-- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing"
Linux or BSD as a server is generally a good idea for one reason STANDARDS. Microsoft calls what it does a standard but never writes down anywhere how to let others work with it. Even old stuff that they made but no longer sell is non-standard to them. The desktop Linux computer is not quite there yet. You have to be honest an tell your convert that. You need to look at Windows 2k and XP before you complain about crashes and memory usage. They use about the same memory as KDE and if you have good apps they will stay up for days or weeks with no problem, by then you will have to download another Windows patch and have to reboot anyway. You have to load soo many tools to protect Windows because it is generally a poorly administrated box, it is too common for the logged in user to have full administrator rights. Windows has a "runas" tool that is similar to Linux su every user needs to be taught how to use it. Running without anti-virus tools is suicide expecially if you use that virus spreader called Outlook (lookout). Windows XP comes with a personal firewall tool and it should be used considering how weak the security model of Windows is. Every Windows box need to be patched and up to date too many lazy IT staffs say that we are safe behind the firewall. All it would take is one virus in a LAN with unpatched Windows boxes to go wild and take down the company. In short if you administer a Windows box the way you have to to protect against all the Windows attacks it isn't that much easier to use than a Linux or BSD box. In the past I have found you actually can get email support from Microsoft fairly quickly for FREE! I don't know how good it will be in the future since they are moving their support contracts to India and letting their USA contractors layoff the American staff. It seems to work for Dell so maybe it will work for Microsoft. It is kind of interesting that a high profit company that likes to wrap itself in the flag for laws and government contracts will cut so may low paid American contractors for even lower paid Indian contractors. The problem with Linux on the desktop is the lack of key apps that are as good as the Windows stuff. The generic stuff is there but the stuff in CAD and other key areas has a long way to go. It is still too hard to get everything working smoothly together, YaST does a good job but there are gaps in getting all the stuff configured right. Give it another couple of years it will be there. Linux on the desktop is better than Windows 3.1 ever was but not quite at Windows XP ease. Let your convert get to know Linux in the server farm and when he is ready to put it on the desktop Linux will be ready for him. Tell him to patch all his Windows PCs before something stupid happens.
We read that in Windows:
Running without anti-virus tools is suicide expecially if you use that virus spreader called Outlook (lookout).
I was using MS-DOS and Windows from 1991 until about one month ago. I never used an anti-virus tool to check a Windows program, I never used an anti-virus daemon, I routinely downloaded stuff from the net, and I was never affected by any malicious software. Friends did use antivirus software and were affected. I find it hard to believe that a Windows program could be affected by virus and still manage to run. A trojan is another matter, but their avoidance is pretty simple -- as long as you use your brain, and not just antivirus software. "Ah," you may be thinking. "You may be an idiot when it comes to Linux, but you probably knew what you were doing in Windows." Maybe. But my wife (using Win2k) doesn't. She hasn't a clue. But she isn't running any virus protection stuff either. Her friends' computers periodically get sick and need laborious rehabilitation; hers doesn't. How so? Because, like mine, her 'Doze is set up to display file extensions. If she's sent any file that doesn't end in .JPG, she trashes it. If any user of Windows can neither understand how to protect herself from so-called viruses nor follow simple instructions on protection, I don't think that she can run Linux either. I'm all in favor of Linux. (That's why I switched to it.) But Linux advocacy won't be helped by scaremongering about Windows.
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 07:17, Peter Evans wrote:
We read that in Windows:
Running without anti-virus tools is suicide expecially if you use that virus spreader called Outlook (lookout).
I was using MS-DOS and Windows from 1991 until about one month ago. I never used an anti-virus tool to check a Windows program, I never used an anti-virus daemon, I routinely downloaded stuff from the net, and I was never affected by any malicious software.
Yes, you can do pretty well without an anti-virus package on Windows, especially with a machine that is on a dialup connection, where your only major point of infection is your e-mail. In a LAN you have a different problem, because your machine is permanently connected to other machines and they share drives and printers, etc. This is a typical office network setup. Then your chances of getting infected is higher. I recently set up a WinNT box to test an application. I did not even install Outlook etc. I only had to use a few network shares to install and setup the application. 30 minutes later, all binaries on the machine was infected with the funlove virus. I had to trash the machine, re-install windows and first install and anti-virus package. My desktop workstation has been running Linux for 8 months on that LAN without me even worrying about a virus. I have NFS and SAMBA shares all over the place. The thing is that I got so used to not worry about a virus, or file extensions or payloads in mail, that I never even thought of using anti-virus software when I set up the NT box. The fact that by using Linux, I don't have to go and inspect the file extensions of every mail attachment I get, makes it worth using Linux. When I used Windows, I was up to date with the latest virus information. How they are distributed, what they look like. I did not dare open a mail before I checked what attachments came with it. It is a waste of time. (Even if you do have an anti-virus package, you need to be careful) With Linux, I can read my mail without worrying about the attachments because my mail client does not open any attachments that is not plain text. Even if I open the attachment, it would have no effect. Why should I be walking on eggs when I can be running on rock? I think using Windows without an anti-virus package is tempting fate. You can be lucky, until some script kiddie hits your box while you are downloading mail. Bottom line is that for an office/corporate network, it is just suicide to run Windows without anti-virus software. Home users can still get away with it, but not in a business. -- Andre Truter Software Engineer Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 AIM: trusoftzaf http://www.trusoft.za.net ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~
Andre Truter:
Bottom line is that for an office/corporate network, it is just suicide to run Windows without anti-virus software.
OK. But I hope Windows users are expected to think for themselves as well. I was going to recommend that they (and anybody else) should read http://vmyths.com/ but a quick visit there tells me that it's closing. (Damn! Oh well, at least I'll buy one of Rob Rosenberger's CafePress T-shirts.) Anyway, go there quickly, because it does still exist and it's both informative (to my ignorant self at least) and enjoyable. (Hmm, yes, it's time for me to blow the cobwebs off wget.)
On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 10:15, Peter Evans wrote:
Andre Truter:
Bottom line is that for an office/corporate network, it is just suicide to run Windows without anti-virus software.
OK. But I hope Windows users are expected to think for themselves as well. I was going to recommend that they (and anybody else) should read http://vmyths.com/ but a quick visit there tells me that it's closing. (Damn! Oh well, at least I'll buy one of Rob Rosenberger's CafePress T-shirts.) Anyway, go there quickly, because it does still exist and it's both informative (to my ignorant self at least) and enjoyable. (Hmm, yes, it's time for me to blow the cobwebs off wget.)
Oh, yes, I totally agree that Windows users need to think for themselves, even if they do have anti-virus software installed. Users need to be made aware that they cannot blindly trust anti-virus software. It could be out of date or disabled or something. Even Linux users should be made to think for themselves, because there are a few Linux worms out there and script kiddies are always out there. That VMyths is a good site and everybody that use email should read at some stage. I normally go and look for the hoaxes on F-Secure's page (In my Windows days I used F-Prot) http://www.f-secure.com/virus-info/hoax/ They have a link to Urban Legends: http://www.urbanlegends.com/ -- Andre Truter Software Engineer Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 AIM: trusoftzaf http://www.trusoft.za.net ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~
On Friday 18 July 2003 23:42, Andre Truter wrote:
Bottom line is that for an office/corporate network, it is just suicide to run Windows without anti-virus software. Home users can still get away with it, but not in a business.
And most of the users that have virus infected machines are clueless about it, untill others start complaining about the damage they are doing. A virus checker that is out of date is worse than none at all because you THINK you are safe. Our Linux servers at work are run amavis to scan mail, but other than that we don't run any virus scanners on the Linux box, but wouldn't go a minute with out it on the windows box. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:17:52 +0900 Peter Evans <peter@despammed.com> wrote:
We read that in Windows:
Running without anti-virus tools is suicide expecially if you use that virus spreader called Outlook (lookout).
I was using MS-DOS and Windows from 1991 until about one month ago. I never used an anti-virus tool to check a Windows program, I never used
an anti-virus daemon, As you and others have mentioned, if you practive "safe computing" you should not have a problem. Anti-virus programs tend to give the user a feeling of complacency. Viruses, worms, and trojans can enter your system as an email attachment, from an infected removable media (floppy or CD), or by importing or running infected software from a LAN or even a download. While most of the major software vendors aggressivly keep their software distribution sites clean, some have allowed viruses onto their shrinkwrap products. Another way you can become infected is by using an email client (eg. Outlook, Outlook Express) that automatically executes embedded scripts (The Windows Scripting Host feature). And, WRT: attachments, never trust them no matter who you get them from. I was once sent an infected spreadsheet by department's secretary. My wife runs Windows and also has never had her machine infected, but she also follows my rules: Never, ever open an executable attachment. Always do a virus check before and after installing any software. Remember that many Windows viruses arrive with double extensions: FOO.TXT.pif Windows, by default, does not show the extension. This fools the receiver into thinking this is a text file, but when clicked the system becomes infected.
The bottom line is that no system is immune to worms or viruses. And, a good anti-virus program is a very useful tool, but not a panacea. Use good common sense. -- Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org> Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
On Saturday, July 19, 2003, at 07:29 AM, Jerry Feldman wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:17:52 +0900 Peter Evans <peter@despammed.com> wrote:
We read that in Windows:
Running without anti-virus tools is suicide expecially if you use that virus spreader called Outlook (lookout).
I was using MS-DOS and Windows from 1991 until about one month ago. I never used an anti-virus tool to check a Windows program, I never used
an anti-virus daemon, As you and others have mentioned, if you practive "safe computing" you should not have a problem. Anti-virus programs tend to give the user a feeling of complacency. Viruses, worms, and trojans can enter your system as an email attachment, from an infected removable media (floppy or CD), or by importing or running infected software from a LAN or even a download. While most of the major software vendors aggressivly keep their software distribution sites clean, some have allowed viruses onto their shrinkwrap products. Another way you can become infected is by using an email client (eg. Outlook, Outlook Express) that automatically executes embedded scripts (The Windows Scripting Host feature). And, WRT: attachments, never trust them no matter who you get them from. I was once sent an infected spreadsheet by department's secretary. My wife runs Windows and also has never had her machine infected, but she also follows my rules: Never, ever open an executable attachment. Always do a virus check before and after installing any software. Remember that many Windows viruses arrive with double extensions: FOO.TXT.pif Windows, by default, does not show the extension. This fools the receiver into thinking this is a text file, but when clicked the system becomes infected.
The bottom line is that no system is immune to worms or viruses. And, a good anti-virus program is a very useful tool, but not a panacea. Use good common sense. -- Jerry Feldman <gaf@blu.org> Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 <mime-attachment>
I've run windows 2k server, 2k pro, and 98xx without any problems except the 2k server. I just explicitly block all non-requested access to the machines and block all ports out that are not needed. 2k server was a web server that has been replaces by SuSE 7.3 pro (of which I'm am incredibly pleased with, after some incredible amount of learning and research. I'm a mac man from the 80's. :-)), and 2k server just has too many back doors it seems. Ripped up my firewall with out going traffic in the neighborhood of 3000 outgoing connection attempts a day at it's peak. Did traces and found most of them were going to m$ and ad agencies. That's when the pop ups started on friends browsers. The 2k server had virus software to keep it up. Never any problems with macs either. Os9 and x. x rocks but I've found lots of missing little features since playing with Linux and BSD, and it's no where near as configurable. Rock solid though. So it makes me wonder how much of the m$ problems aren't intentional to boost the revenue. Not downloading software you don't trust and checking the extensions along with just common sense configuration and checking the extension seems to to well. At least it has for me over the last 5 yrs of using windows. Just some observations. will
[Jerry Feldman]
As you and others have mentioned, if you practive "safe computing" you should not have a problem.
Recent events have shown that the only way to safe computing is to forever forbid removable media and any kind of network connections. :-) For a little while, I'm getting 5000 unwelcome messages per day on average, either trying to infect my systems, or wrongly warn me that I sent viruses, because my name is being spoofed as the `From' header in messages originating far from here, and widely broadcasted away from here. Likely, my name was found on the disks of numerous remote, infected systems. My various filters clean out about 99.85% of the clutter, still, enough goes within the cracks to be slightly annoying as a user, and surely annoying when considering the network bandwidth taken by this overall noise, and for which we have to pay. (Europeans might be paying more than we do here...) Most people would say that I practice computing in quite safe ways. :-)
The bottom line is that no system is immune to worms or viruses.
Systems may be quite bothered with worms and viruses, even when immune. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Alle 20:07, venerdì 18 luglio 2003, Paul Benjamin ha scritto:
Linux or BSD as a server is generally a good idea for one reason STANDARDS. Microsoft calls what it does a standard but never writes down anywhere how to let others work with it. Even old stuff that they made but no longer sell is non-standard to them.
The desktop Linux computer is not quite there yet. You have to be honest an tell your convert that. You need to look at Windows 2k and XP before you complain about crashes and memory usage.
Windows XP is much slower than Suse Linux 8.2 anyway. This is just my experience. I have been surfing from my laptop with suse 8.2, I had vmware (+ win ME), kmail, kvirc, ten konquerors, knode, konsole and noatun running. No problem at all, and it is a P3 1133 with 256mbyte or RAM. A friend of mine opened 10 IEs, on its laptop P4 2500 with 256mbyte of RAM, and his machine got much slower than mine. If you do need a particular application, Linux is a winner in a desktop too. Of course if you are clueless you need someone to set Linux up and running.
They use about the same memory as KDE and if you have good apps they will stay up for days or weeks with no problem, by then you will have to download another Windows patch and have to reboot anyway.
All persons who did it, said WindowsXP Home gets really slower after 5 days. Just my 0.02€ Praise -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2-rc1-SuSE (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/GZpi6v3ZTabyE8kRAoHEAKCaXG0jsul0afyyRhCw2dsKVnGXXgCfQrmF Jx/dLNcHR1JnhUpi7oFv3ik= =BqDM -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Friday 18 July 2003 17:24, Donn aka n5xwb Washburn wrote:
However, I am in need of some of you that use or used Windows and know of its less obvious problems to add to my "Linux Benefits" list.
I got two (as I think) important points that every normal user will understand very fast: (I) A lot of ppl complain that Linux lacks software. This might be true for the big commercial stuff like CAD and (to a lessening degree) even Office, but it is definitely not true for all the small tools you need in your everyday computer life. After a clean M$-Installation, you need to start looking for all the tools and install them separately. If you take a good Linux Distro like SuSE, you'll have almost all the tools available on the CDs and, using a Desktop like KDE, a lot of stuff is builtin. Have you ever tried to work just with the M$-CD and an empty PC? On Windoze (up to 2K, haven't used XP and never will), I usually need to look for and install separately: - FTP-Software (Konqueror does that) - Download-Manager for resuming stalled downloads (Konqi does that) - Software to d'l Images from digital cameras (Konqi does that, too) - a decent Editor (you get Kate out of the Box) - IRC-Software (xchat's on the CDs) - a picture viewer like ACDSee (KView's just fine or Pixie) - Winamp (Xmms is there for you) - CD Burning software (I'm happy with KreateCD) - Palm-Software (kpilot will do just fine) - some Zipper (KArchiveur is on the CDs) - Graphics Software (Gimp's on the CDs) - PDF-Reader (I don't even start with Ghostview, LOL) - an Audio-CD-Ripper (install lame and then Konqi'll do it as well - I admit, lame is not on the CDs, but working with it later is a beaut compared to some extra software for M$-OSs) - decent mail software (Kmail's excellent) - a Newsreader (you get Knode) - M$ Office (you get a pretty well working OpenOffice now) - not to mention loads of drivers which are not on the M$-CDs (every single M$-User will be able to add to this list and you will rightaway be able to point him to the perfect tool on the SuSE-CDs) Doing all that an swapping CDs and Disks like crazy takes up loads of time, where the next huge advantage of Linux comes into play: (II) Reinstalling Windoze, finding and loading all the hardware drivers, finding and installing all the mentioned additional software needed separately and then tweaking all those system settings until a M$-System feels as comfortable as the old installation, takes days, if not weeks (yes, it does, just look at how a Word-Installation is set up after installation, and how it looks after 6 months working with it). In Linux-World, I rsync my home-dir to my server and I don't need to worry that I might've forgotten to backup some files (ask a windoze user if he knows where his Outlook data is stored and how to backup that, LOL). Then I start the installation, choose the packages I want installed and go to watch my favorite TV-sitcom or something. Half an hour later, when the installation is finished, I put a little setup script on the fresh installation and start that (and then I'm off to watch some more TV). When I come back the next time, the new system is all setup and even looks like my old installation, all mail accounts are set up, as well as every single software package and all my data is back on the workstation as well. That might take 2hrs max (where I don't even need to be around for most of the time)... how's that for an advantage? kind regards, Hansen PS: just an afterthought: (III) Did you ever compare M$-batch-file capabilities to shell-scripts? -- Powered by SuSE 8.1pro - KDE 3.0.3 - KMail 1.4.3
A lot of ppl complain that Linux lacks software. This might be true for the big commercial stuff like CAD and (to a lessening degree) even Office, but it is definitely not true for all the small tools you need in your everyday computer life.
Agreed. Still, I have a "Linux (allegedly) lacks software" question, about "videoconferencing". The institution where I work issues to its workers laptops equipped with 'Doze, webcams, and recent, commercial versions of CUseeme. (You may remember that CU stands for Cornell University and that this was once freeware; the commercial developers have recently been fiddling with its name, calling it "Meeting Point", "Click to Meet", etc.) Nobody actually uses CUseeme (yet) because nobody else uses it (yet). Me, I don't use it as I turned down the offer of laptop/webcam/CUseeme, don't much want to squint at little pictures of other people talking, and don't want other people looking at me; however, I am slightly responsible for knowing what's going on -- and I'm lost. I get the impression that in the Windows and Mac worlds, "videoconferencing software" has been eclipsed by freebies such as Yahoo/M$ Messenger, and that these programs are mutually incompatible. As for Linux, I found old references to a CUseeme-compatible program called Qseeme, and after a long search even located and downloaded a copy. But it no longer seems to be under development. I may be less competent at websearches than I realize, but anyway my searches for info come up with nothing more helpful than porno sites and extraordinarily uninformative sites waffling opaquely about "corporate solutions". Can anyone give me an URL or two about non-proprietary videoconferencing, or does such a beast just not exist? Irrelevantly to the above, a token M$ quibble:
After a clean M$-Installation, you need to start looking for all the tools and install them separately.
But if it isn't your first M$ installation and you have a clue, you'll have done something like burnt ZIP files of the good stuff (and some configuration files) onto a CD-R, and will be able to install from there. Not a piece of cake, but not that agonizing either.
Can anyone give me an URL or two about non-proprietary videoconferencing, or does such a beast just not exist?
Oh, a tip elsewhere has led me to "Session Initiation Protocol" and thence sipforum.org and so forth. Hard to distinguish what does exist from vaporware, and much of this stuff is in the direst corporatespeak, but I'll persevere.
Op zondag 20 juli 2003 04:28, schreef Peter Evans:
Can anyone give me an URL or two about non-proprietary videoconferencing, or does such a beast just not exist?
See the comments on this page: http://dot.kde.org/1058415564/ www.gnomemeeting.org -- Richard Bos Without a home the journey is endless
Richard Bos:
See the comments on this page: http://dot.kde.org/1058415564/
Crumbs, that's enough to keep me busy for quite some time. Many thanks!
On Sunday 20 July 2003 04:28, Peter Evans wrote:
After a clean M$-Installation, you need to start looking for all the tools and install them separately.
But if it isn't your first M$ installation and you have a clue, you'll have done something like burnt ZIP files of the good stuff (and some configuration files) onto a CD-R, and will be able to install from there. Not a piece of cake, but not that agonizing either.
Still not very convenient. I got all the good stuff on a smb-server and burnt to a "Rescue"-CD as well. I still need to install every single one of them by hand. And nobody ever told me during my windoze days, where Word stores all the configurations. Is there actually a config-file hidden somewhere? (Just curious, I'm never gonna touch that crap again.) Hansen -- Powered by SuSE 8.1pro - KDE 3.0.3 - KMail 1.4.3 Netiquette is easy: http://learn.to/edit_messages ...and you'll get flame-free answers in no time.
I think we're getting off the topic of Linux (let alone SuSE). To a considerable degree, that's my fault. (Sorry!) Anyway, I'm bowing out of public discussion of Windows, at least for now.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 19 July 2003 21:28, Peter Evans wrote:
A lot of ppl complain that Linux lacks software. This might be true for the big commercial stuff like CAD and (to a lessening degree) even Office, but it is definitely not true for all the small tools you need in your everyday computer life.
Agreed. Still, I have a "Linux (allegedly) lacks software" question, about "videoconferencing".
<snip> GnomeMeeting, ayttm (I think)
Irrelevantly to the above, a token M$ quibble:
After a clean M$-Installation, you need to start looking for all the tools and install them separately.
But if it isn't your first M$ installation and you have a clue, you'll have done something like burnt ZIP files of the good stuff (and some configuration files) onto a CD-R, and will be able to install from there. Not a piece of cake, but not that agonizing either.
There's the rub...how many of the M$ users actually have a clue? (kept in perspective of how many use that OS) John -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/GtiuH5oDXyLKXKQRAjmSAJ4kF9wRxDh7CSG6aZAtuM15Pp+nRACeKdBp nMQrOl6f7v+GPE6e3qBrT2A= =1QTa -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
The 03.07.20 at 11:28, Peter Evans wrote:
But if it isn't your first M$ installation and you have a clue, you'll have done something like burnt ZIP files of the good stuff (and some configuration files) onto a CD-R, and will be able to install from there. Not a piece of cake, but not that agonizing either.
I do the windows backup from inside Linux, and it works. First, I have a bootable CD with an image of the windoze C: disk - the image was originally provided by the computer supplier as one executable, retten.exe (I wonder what the word means :-?), and I put that on a bootable CD - that I use to put back the "C:" disk as it came from the shop. Then, from inside linux, I keep a big zip file, made from Linux, of a full backup of C:, which I unzip on top of the previously mentioned image: at this point, I have a clean install with my modifications and additions, in working order, in less that one hour work, being lazy. Instead of using the big zip - or tar.gz - file, I also have a compressed cdrom (zisofs), which is somewhat faster to use, once created. Notice that the backup, being made from Linux, can copy everything, because the windows system isn't running. A full backup like this can not be made from inside windows, it refuses to copy certain "in use" files. There are improvements on the above. With the mtools utilities (Linux) it is possible to read (and write) from Linux the special dos file attributes. I think it is possible to create a file with a list of all modified files, and zip only that (+a). Then "mattrib -P" will record the state of the attributes, saving a script that can be used to recreate them on the vfat partition. You see, Linux can be used to reformat and recover a windows partition fast ;-) -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 05:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The 03.07.20 at 11:28, Peter Evans wrote:
But if it isn't your first M$ installation and you have a clue, you'll have done something like burnt ZIP files of the good stuff (and some configuration files) onto a CD-R, and will be able to install from there. Not a piece of cake, but not that agonizing either.
I do the windows backup from inside Linux, and it works.
First, I have a bootable CD with an image of the windoze C: disk - the image was originally provided by the computer supplier as one executable, retten.exe (I wonder what the word means :-?), and I put that on a bootable CD - that I use to put back the "C:" disk as it came from the shop.
Then, from inside linux, I keep a big zip file, made from Linux, of a full backup of C:, which I unzip on top of the previously mentioned image: at this point, I have a clean install with my modifications and additions, in working order, in less that one hour work, being lazy.
Instead of using the big zip - or tar.gz - file, I also have a compressed cdrom (zisofs), which is somewhat faster to use, once created.
Notice that the backup, being made from Linux, can copy everything, because the windows system isn't running. A full backup like this can not be made from inside windows, it refuses to copy certain "in use" files.
There are improvements on the above. With the mtools utilities (Linux) it is possible to read (and write) from Linux the special dos file attributes. I think it is possible to create a file with a list of all modified files, and zip only that (+a). Then "mattrib -P" will record the state of the attributes, saving a script that can be used to recreate them on the vfat partition.
You see, Linux can be used to reformat and recover a windows partition fast ;-)
-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
That's kewl. I'll have to remember that. I just use Norton Ghost. Works Ok if you can get your hands on a reasonably priced copy. Does the same thing pretty much. I like the above though. Have to try it sometime. thanks will
The 03.07.20 at 23:20, will wrote:
That's kewl. I'll have to remember that. I just use Norton Ghost. Works Ok if you can get your hands on a reasonably priced copy. Does the same thing pretty much. I like the above though. Have to try it sometime.
Ghost is very nice. The problem is that it can not do incremental backups. My first step is an image (ghost like), in one single CD. But after installing things, it grows to several CDs, whereas my solution is only another CD - and as I don't own Northon Ghost, cheaper ;-) By the way, Ghost can copy ext2 partitions, but not reiserfs ones - at least, so I was told. There is also another program for linux that I still haven't tried, it's somewhere on my 'todo' list. Pity... my cdwriter came with a copy of Nero, I think, that could create image CDs. The "but", and a very big "BUT" is that it does absolutely no compression! My 17 Gb "C:" disk, filled to only two Gb, is copied to 24 Cds... I call that incompetence. Or maybe bussiness model :-? perhaps they think I'll buy the comercial version... I already paid the hidden price included with my writer, I'm not paying a second time. -- Cheers, Carlos Robinson
On Monday 21 July 2003 00:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:
First, I have a bootable CD with an image of the windoze C: disk - the image was originally provided by the computer supplier as one executable, retten.exe (I wonder what the word means :-?)
retten = to rescue Hansen -- Powered by SuSE 8.1pro - KDE 3.0.3 - KMail 1.4.3 Netiquette is easy: http://learn.to/edit_messages ...and you'll get flame-free answers in no time.
Johannes Liedtke wrote:
On Monday 21 July 2003 00:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:
retten.exe (I wonder what the word means :-?)
retten = to rescue
FYI, there is a nice German<>English dictionary on the 8.2 CDs, named ksteak. And note that there's a YOU update for this program. SH
participants (16)
-
Alex Daniloff -
Andre Truter -
Carlos E. R. -
Donn aka n5xwb Washburn -
Jerry Feldman -
Johannes Liedtke -
John -
John Andersen -
Paul Benjamin -
Peter Evans -
pinard＠iro.umontreal.ca -
Praise -
Richard Bos -
Sjoerd Hiemstra -
Tony Alfrey -
will