On Friday 18 July 2003 09:06 am, Alex Daniloff wrote:

Hi Donn, My hat off for your efforts advocating Linux. I can't give you my insights on any Windows shortcomings 'cause I've never used this OS extensively. However, based on my experience converting other non-technical people to Linux/BSD, I would say that it's a rather dead bid, unless these people are in a real need for another OS. Look, it took just to months to convert our whole eng. dept. (40 people) to Linux.

May I inquire a) What sort of engineering department are we talking about (mechanical, electrical, structural)? b) What critical design software packages does your group use and what windows-based packages did you have to abandon? Thanks <snip> -- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing"

Hi Tony, Our department is a product engineering deparment at a very well known IC manufacturer. So it's related to EE world. Our group uses CADENCE, LTL, ADS on UNIX/Linux plus other inhouse developed software for circuit design, verification, and process data analysis. We've abandoned practically all windows-based packages. For example Exceed, MS-SQL7 DB, MS Office, MS IIS web server, alongside with Windows itself. Instead of Exceed, we're using custom Expect scripts which export display from the UNIX application servers and launch required applications on our Linux desktops. Insted of MS SQL7, we're using MySQL 4.0.12 database Instead of MS Office, we're using Open Office bound with MySQL. Instead of MS IIS, we're using Apache 2.x web server. Using LAMP (Linux Apache MySQL Perl) approach, we've developed additional web based applications for our needs without dealing with commercial vendors and license fees. We calculated our total savings around $60,000 (software, hardware and license costs) by moving into Linux environment. Regards. Alex

May I inquire a) What sort of engineering department are we talking about (mechanical, electrical, structural)? b) What critical design software packages does your group use and what windows-based packages did you have to abandon?

Thanks

<snip>

-- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing"

Tony, Auto-CAD stays for Automated Computer Aided Design tool. It applies not only to mech. engineering, but other eng. fields as well. All our EE packages like CADENCE, Mentor Graphics, LTL, ADS, SPECS and others are in fact Auto-CAD type tools. Alex -------------------

On Friday 18 July 2003 01:30 pm, Alex Daniloff wrote:

...

Hi Tony, Our department is a product engineering deparment at a very well known IC manufacturer. So it's related to EE world. Our group uses CADENCE, LTL, ADS on UNIX/Linux plus other inhouse developed software for circuit design, verification, and process data analysis. We've abandoned practically all windows-based packages. For example Exceed, MS-SQL7 DB, MS Office, MS IIS web server, alongside with Windows itself.

Very cool. So you do not need an Auto-CAD-like thing?

-- Tony Alfrey tonyalfrey@earthlink.net "I'd Rather Be Sailing"

On Sat, 2003-07-19 at 07:17, Peter Evans wrote:

We read that in Windows:

...

Running without anti-virus tools is suicide expecially if you use that virus spreader called Outlook (lookout).

I was using MS-DOS and Windows from 1991 until about one month ago. I never used an anti-virus tool to check a Windows program, I never used an anti-virus daemon, I routinely downloaded stuff from the net, and I was never affected by any malicious software.

Yes, you can do pretty well without an anti-virus package on Windows, especially with a machine that is on a dialup connection, where your only major point of infection is your e-mail. In a LAN you have a different problem, because your machine is permanently connected to other machines and they share drives and printers, etc. This is a typical office network setup. Then your chances of getting infected is higher. I recently set up a WinNT box to test an application. I did not even install Outlook etc. I only had to use a few network shares to install and setup the application. 30 minutes later, all binaries on the machine was infected with the funlove virus. I had to trash the machine, re-install windows and first install and anti-virus package. My desktop workstation has been running Linux for 8 months on that LAN without me even worrying about a virus. I have NFS and SAMBA shares all over the place. The thing is that I got so used to not worry about a virus, or file extensions or payloads in mail, that I never even thought of using anti-virus software when I set up the NT box. The fact that by using Linux, I don't have to go and inspect the file extensions of every mail attachment I get, makes it worth using Linux. When I used Windows, I was up to date with the latest virus information. How they are distributed, what they look like. I did not dare open a mail before I checked what attachments came with it. It is a waste of time. (Even if you do have an anti-virus package, you need to be careful) With Linux, I can read my mail without worrying about the attachments because my mail client does not open any attachments that is not plain text. Even if I open the attachment, it would have no effect. Why should I be walking on eggs when I can be running on rock? I think using Windows without an anti-virus package is tempting fate. You can be lucky, until some script kiddie hits your box while you are downloading mail. Bottom line is that for an office/corporate network, it is just suicide to run Windows without anti-virus software. Home users can still get away with it, but not in a business. -- Andre Truter Software Engineer Registered Linux user #185282 ICQ #40935899 AIM: trusoftzaf http://www.trusoft.za.net ~ A dinosaur is a salamander designed to Mil Spec ~

On Friday 18 July 2003 23:42, Andre Truter wrote:

Bottom line is that for an office/corporate network, it is just suicide to run Windows without anti-virus software. Home users can still get away with it, but not in a business.

And most of the users that have virus infected machines are clueless about it, untill others start complaining about the damage they are doing. A virus checker that is out of date is worse than none at all because you THINK you are safe. Our Linux servers at work are run amavis to scan mail, but other than that we don't run any virus scanners on the Linux box, but wouldn't go a minute with out it on the windows box. -- _____________________________________ John Andersen

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 14:17:52 +0900 Peter Evans wrote:

We read that in Windows:

...

Running without anti-virus tools is suicide expecially if you use that virus spreader called Outlook (lookout).

I was using MS-DOS and Windows from 1991 until about one month ago. I never used an anti-virus tool to check a Windows program, I never used

an anti-virus daemon, As you and others have mentioned, if you practive "safe computing" you should not have a problem. Anti-virus programs tend to give the user a feeling of complacency. Viruses, worms, and trojans can enter your system as an email attachment, from an infected removable media (floppy or CD), or by importing or running infected software from a LAN or even a download. While most of the major software vendors aggressivly keep their software distribution sites clean, some have allowed viruses onto their shrinkwrap products. Another way you can become infected is by using an email client (eg. Outlook, Outlook Express) that automatically executes embedded scripts (The Windows Scripting Host feature). And, WRT: attachments, never trust them no matter who you get them from. I was once sent an infected spreadsheet by department's secretary. My wife runs Windows and also has never had her machine infected, but she also follows my rules: Never, ever open an executable attachment. Always do a virus check before and after installing any software. Remember that many Windows viruses arrive with double extensions: FOO.TXT.pif Windows, by default, does not show the extension. This fools the receiver into thinking this is a text file, but when clicked the system becomes infected.

The bottom line is that no system is immune to worms or viruses. And, a good anti-virus program is a very useful tool, but not a panacea. Use good common sense. -- Jerry Feldman Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9

On Friday 18 July 2003 17:24, Donn aka n5xwb Washburn wrote:

However, I am in need of some of you that use or used Windows and know of its less obvious problems to add to my "Linux Benefits" list.

I got two (as I think) important points that every normal user will understand very fast: (I) A lot of ppl complain that Linux lacks software. This might be true for the big commercial stuff like CAD and (to a lessening degree) even Office, but it is definitely not true for all the small tools you need in your everyday computer life. After a clean M$-Installation, you need to start looking for all the tools and install them separately. If you take a good Linux Distro like SuSE, you'll have almost all the tools available on the CDs and, using a Desktop like KDE, a lot of stuff is builtin. Have you ever tried to work just with the M$-CD and an empty PC? On Windoze (up to 2K, haven't used XP and never will), I usually need to look for and install separately: - FTP-Software (Konqueror does that) - Download-Manager for resuming stalled downloads (Konqi does that) - Software to d'l Images from digital cameras (Konqi does that, too) - a decent Editor (you get Kate out of the Box) - IRC-Software (xchat's on the CDs) - a picture viewer like ACDSee (KView's just fine or Pixie) - Winamp (Xmms is there for you) - CD Burning software (I'm happy with KreateCD) - Palm-Software (kpilot will do just fine) - some Zipper (KArchiveur is on the CDs) - Graphics Software (Gimp's on the CDs) - PDF-Reader (I don't even start with Ghostview, LOL) - an Audio-CD-Ripper (install lame and then Konqi'll do it as well - I admit, lame is not on the CDs, but working with it later is a beaut compared to some extra software for M$-OSs) - decent mail software (Kmail's excellent) - a Newsreader (you get Knode) - M$ Office (you get a pretty well working OpenOffice now) - not to mention loads of drivers which are not on the M$-CDs (every single M$-User will be able to add to this list and you will rightaway be able to point him to the perfect tool on the SuSE-CDs) Doing all that an swapping CDs and Disks like crazy takes up loads of time, where the next huge advantage of Linux comes into play: (II) Reinstalling Windoze, finding and loading all the hardware drivers, finding and installing all the mentioned additional software needed separately and then tweaking all those system settings until a M$-System feels as comfortable as the old installation, takes days, if not weeks (yes, it does, just look at how a Word-Installation is set up after installation, and how it looks after 6 months working with it). In Linux-World, I rsync my home-dir to my server and I don't need to worry that I might've forgotten to backup some files (ask a windoze user if he knows where his Outlook data is stored and how to backup that, LOL). Then I start the installation, choose the packages I want installed and go to watch my favorite TV-sitcom or something. Half an hour later, when the installation is finished, I put a little setup script on the fresh installation and start that (and then I'm off to watch some more TV). When I come back the next time, the new system is all setup and even looks like my old installation, all mail accounts are set up, as well as every single software package and all my data is back on the workstation as well. That might take 2hrs max (where I don't even need to be around for most of the time)... how's that for an advantage? kind regards, Hansen PS: just an afterthought: (III) Did you ever compare M$-batch-file capabilities to shell-scripts? -- Powered by SuSE 8.1pro - KDE 3.0.3 - KMail 1.4.3

A lot of ppl complain that Linux lacks software. This might be true for the big commercial stuff like CAD and (to a lessening degree) even Office, but it is definitely not true for all the small tools you need in your everyday computer life.

Agreed. Still, I have a "Linux (allegedly) lacks software" question, about "videoconferencing". The institution where I work issues to its workers laptops equipped with 'Doze, webcams, and recent, commercial versions of CUseeme. (You may remember that CU stands for Cornell University and that this was once freeware; the commercial developers have recently been fiddling with its name, calling it "Meeting Point", "Click to Meet", etc.) Nobody actually uses CUseeme (yet) because nobody else uses it (yet). Me, I don't use it as I turned down the offer of laptop/webcam/CUseeme, don't much want to squint at little pictures of other people talking, and don't want other people looking at me; however, I am slightly responsible for knowing what's going on -- and I'm lost. I get the impression that in the Windows and Mac worlds, "videoconferencing software" has been eclipsed by freebies such as Yahoo/M$ Messenger, and that these programs are mutually incompatible. As for Linux, I found old references to a CUseeme-compatible program called Qseeme, and after a long search even located and downloaded a copy. But it no longer seems to be under development. I may be less competent at websearches than I realize, but anyway my searches for info come up with nothing more helpful than porno sites and extraordinarily uninformative sites waffling opaquely about "corporate solutions". Can anyone give me an URL or two about non-proprietary videoconferencing, or does such a beast just not exist? Irrelevantly to the above, a token M$ quibble:

After a clean M$-Installation, you need to start looking for all the tools and install them separately.

But if it isn't your first M$ installation and you have a clue, you'll have done something like burnt ZIP files of the good stuff (and some configuration files) onto a CD-R, and will be able to install from there. Not a piece of cake, but not that agonizing either.

Richard Bos:

See the comments on this page: http://dot.kde.org/1058415564/

Crumbs, that's enough to keep me busy for quite some time. Many thanks!

On Sunday 20 July 2003 04:28, Peter Evans wrote:

...

After a clean M$-Installation, you need to start looking for all the tools and install them separately.

But if it isn't your first M$ installation and you have a clue, you'll have done something like burnt ZIP files of the good stuff (and some configuration files) onto a CD-R, and will be able to install from there. Not a piece of cake, but not that agonizing either.

Still not very convenient. I got all the good stuff on a smb-server and burnt to a "Rescue"-CD as well. I still need to install every single one of them by hand. And nobody ever told me during my windoze days, where Word stores all the configurations. Is there actually a config-file hidden somewhere? (Just curious, I'm never gonna touch that crap again.) Hansen -- Powered by SuSE 8.1pro - KDE 3.0.3 - KMail 1.4.3 Netiquette is easy: http://learn.to/edit_messages ...and you'll get flame-free answers in no time.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 19 July 2003 21:28, Peter Evans wrote:

...

A lot of ppl complain that Linux lacks software. This might be true for the big commercial stuff like CAD and (to a lessening degree) even Office, but it is definitely not true for all the small tools you need in your everyday computer life.

Agreed. Still, I have a "Linux (allegedly) lacks software" question, about "videoconferencing".

<snip> GnomeMeeting, ayttm (I think)

Irrelevantly to the above, a token M$ quibble:

...

After a clean M$-Installation, you need to start looking for all the tools and install them separately.

But if it isn't your first M$ installation and you have a clue, you'll have done something like burnt ZIP files of the good stuff (and some configuration files) onto a CD-R, and will be able to install from there. Not a piece of cake, but not that agonizing either.

There's the rub...how many of the M$ users actually have a clue? (kept in perspective of how many use that OS) John -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/GtiuH5oDXyLKXKQRAjmSAJ4kF9wRxDh7CSG6aZAtuM15Pp+nRACeKdBp nMQrOl6f7v+GPE6e3qBrT2A= =1QTa -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 05:52 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The 03.07.20 at 11:28, Peter Evans wrote:

...

But if it isn't your first M$ installation and you have a clue, you'll have done something like burnt ZIP files of the good stuff (and some configuration files) onto a CD-R, and will be able to install from there. Not a piece of cake, but not that agonizing either.

I do the windows backup from inside Linux, and it works.

First, I have a bootable CD with an image of the windoze C: disk - the image was originally provided by the computer supplier as one executable, retten.exe (I wonder what the word means :-?), and I put that on a bootable CD - that I use to put back the "C:" disk as it came from the shop.

Then, from inside linux, I keep a big zip file, made from Linux, of a full backup of C:, which I unzip on top of the previously mentioned image: at this point, I have a clean install with my modifications and additions, in working order, in less that one hour work, being lazy.

Instead of using the big zip - or tar.gz - file, I also have a compressed cdrom (zisofs), which is somewhat faster to use, once created.

Notice that the backup, being made from Linux, can copy everything, because the windows system isn't running. A full backup like this can not be made from inside windows, it refuses to copy certain "in use" files.

There are improvements on the above. With the mtools utilities (Linux) it is possible to read (and write) from Linux the special dos file attributes. I think it is possible to create a file with a list of all modified files, and zip only that (+a). Then "mattrib -P" will record the state of the attributes, saving a script that can be used to recreate them on the vfat partition.

You see, Linux can be used to reformat and recover a windows partition fast ;-)

-- Cheers, Carlos Robinson

That's kewl. I'll have to remember that. I just use Norton Ghost. Works Ok if you can get your hands on a reasonably priced copy. Does the same thing pretty much. I like the above though. Have to try it sometime. thanks will

On Monday 21 July 2003 00:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:

First, I have a bootable CD with an image of the windoze C: disk - the image was originally provided by the computer supplier as one executable, retten.exe (I wonder what the word means :-?)

retten = to rescue Hansen -- Powered by SuSE 8.1pro - KDE 3.0.3 - KMail 1.4.3 Netiquette is easy: http://learn.to/edit_messages ...and you'll get flame-free answers in no time.

[Jerry Feldman]

As you and others have mentioned, if you practive "safe computing" you should not have a problem.

Recent events have shown that the only way to safe computing is to forever forbid removable media and any kind of network connections. :-) For a little while, I'm getting 5000 unwelcome messages per day on average, either trying to infect my systems, or wrongly warn me that I sent viruses, because my name is being spoofed as the `From' header in messages originating far from here, and widely broadcasted away from here. Likely, my name was found on the disks of numerous remote, infected systems. My various filters clean out about 99.85% of the clutter, still, enough goes within the cracks to be slightly annoying as a user, and surely annoying when considering the network bandwidth taken by this overall noise, and for which we have to pay. (Europeans might be paying more than we do here...) Most people would say that I practice computing in quite safe ways. :-)

The bottom line is that no system is immune to worms or viruses.

Systems may be quite bothered with worms and viruses, even when immune. -- François Pinard http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~pinard