On 28/05/18 22:07, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hey,

On 28.05.2018 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Firstly we have created a new opensuse-support@o.o mailing list

Can you please clarify what is the difference to opensuse@opensuse.org? I don't get it...

Henne

The board felt that have been many issues with the way at times opensuse@opensuse.org has offered support over the years this list as part of a community members assessment from the last days probably highlights some of the issues * off-topic posts * derogatory posts * abusive posts * rants * extended rambling * me too's We as the board are aware of a number of community members (including several on the board) who are willing to offer support to users but have since left the opensuse@ list or have mail filters because they thought it wasn't effectively fulfilling its role. There have been several attempts over the years to better focus the mailing list and improve the way it works none of which really worked that well and given the number of people that had left we felt the best way forward was to create a new list and hope that many of the people who previously left the old list join the new one. The board also discussed whether we really even still needed a mailing list for support or whether there was something else like the forums that would be a better place. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 05/28/2018 08:39 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

The board felt that have been many issues with the way at times opensuse@opensuse.org has offered support over the years this list as part of a community members assessment from the last days probably highlights some of the issues

I don't know I follow you. opensuse@opensuse.org (the follow on to the original suse list) has always been the primary support list and has been what has made the suse/opensuse community what it is. Historically, we spun off factory for development issue when the ringed Q&A was being developed, we spun off off-topic to place off-topic posts there, we spun off announce and security, now we are supposedly spinning of the primary role this list to support? This seems like action being taken to address a problem that isn't readily apparent or very well defined from your original post. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.

Op dinsdag 29 mei 2018 11:21:58 CEST schreef ellanios82:
> On 29/05/18 11:57, David C. Rankin wrote:
> > This seems like action being taken to address a problem that isn't readily
> > apparent or very well defined from your original post.
>   - believe Chairman Brown in most eloquent spokesperson for these
> fragmentation-thought-processes
> 
> 
> ......
> 
>   regards

The board has talked about this, *not* out of some wicked idea, but because it 
was asked to many times. Users refuse to use the opensuse@ for (quotes)83 
posts long threads, where the solution already is in post #4 ; long threads 
that contain nothing but completely off-topic stuff, but come up in my 
searches because of their titles ; far too many dunnos that don't add any 
value (/quotes) . I must say that I checked a number of examples thrown at me, 
by some google searches, and I have no way to deny this feedback. And this has 
nothing, *absolutely* noting to do with what the board "wants". Read the board 
pages in the wiki and you'll see the board has no authority to act except when 
asked for. Can we please have that illusion out of the world and these 
suggestions over and done with. And whilst doing so also stop mentioning 
individual board member names, since the board operates as a team. 

-- 
Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht
openSUSE Board Member
openSUSE Forums Team



-- 
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To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 29 May 2018 12:23:20 +0200 "Knurpht @ openSUSE" <knurpht@opensuse.org> wrote:

The board has talked about this, *not* out of some wicked idea, but because it was asked to many times. Users refuse to use the opensuse@ for (quotes)83 posts long threads, where the solution already is in post #4 ; long threads that contain nothing but completely off-topic stuff, but come up in my searches because of their titles ; far too many dunnos that don't add any value (/quotes) . I must say that I checked a number of examples thrown at me, by some google searches, and I have no way to deny this feedback.

But with respect, none of that matters. Mailing lists aren't designed to serve their purpose via a google search. It doesn't matter whether their archives return useful hits to non-subscribers. What does matter is whether the list subscribers get answers useful to them, and indeed other information or maybe even just companionship at times. And they recieve those communications via email sent to them, not by some web tool. If they wanted a web tool they would use the forum. FWIW, I'm a member of both this list and the forum, and for that matter also take an RSS feed from a couple of opensuse sites. But I find that I hardly ever visit the forum, and I hardly ever bother reading the RSS feeds, but I do find it worthwhile to visit this list most every day. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 29/05/18 20:23, Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote:
> Op dinsdag 29 mei 2018 11:21:58 CEST schreef ellanios82:
>> On 29/05/18 11:57, David C. Rankin wrote:
>>> This seems like action being taken to address a problem that isn't readily
>>> apparent or very well defined from your original post.
>>    - believe Chairman Brown in most eloquent spokesperson for these
>> fragmentation-thought-processes
>>
>>
>> ......
>>
>>    regards
> The board has talked about this, *not* out of some wicked idea, but because it
> was asked to many times. Users refuse to use the opensuse@ for (quotes)83
> posts long threads, where the solution already is in post #4 ; long threads
> that contain nothing but completely off-topic stuff, but come up in my
> searches because of their titles ; far too many dunnos that don't add any
> value (/quotes) . I must say that I checked a number of examples thrown at me,
> by some google searches, and I have no way to deny this feedback. And this has
> nothing, *absolutely* noting to do with what the board "wants". Read the board
> pages in the wiki and you'll see the board has no authority to act except when
> asked for. Can we please have that illusion out of the world and these
> suggestions over and done with. And whilst doing so also stop mentioning
> individual board member names, since the board operates as a team.
---

Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht
openSUSE Board Member
openSUSE Forums Team


You were saying something about not mentioning individual board member names...?:-)

BC

-- 
"..The times have been
That, when the brains were out,
   the man would die,.."
                  "Macbeth", Shakespeare


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On 04/06/18 13:06, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> [06-03-18 22:28]:

...

On 29/05/18 20:23, Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote:

...

...

On 29/05/18 11:57, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

This seems like action being taken to address a problem that isn't readily apparent or very well defined from your original post. - believe Chairman Brown in most eloquent spokesperson for these fragmentation-thought-processes

......

regards The board has talked about this, *not* out of some wicked idea, but because it was asked to many times. Users refuse to use the opensuse@ for (quotes)83

Op dinsdag 29 mei 2018 11:21:58 CEST schreef ellanios82: posts long threads, where the solution already is in post #4 ; long threads that contain nothing but completely off-topic stuff, but come up in my searches because of their titles ; far too many dunnos that don't add any value (/quotes) . I must say that I checked a number of examples thrown at me, by some google searches, and I have no way to deny this feedback. And this has nothing, *absolutely* noting to do with what the board "wants". Read the board pages in the wiki and you'll see the board has no authority to act except when asked for. Can we please have that illusion out of the world and these suggestions over and done with. And whilst doing so also stop mentioning individual board member names, since the board operates as a team.

---

Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team

You were saying something about not mentioning individual board member names...?:-) and you are *helping*, how?

don't be part of the problem!

And your current contribution has helped, how? At least I was directly addressing what Gertjan wrote, " ... stop mentioning individual board member names ... ". BC -- "..The times have been That, when the brains were out, the man would die,.." "Macbeth", Shakespeare -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/29/2018 04:59 AM, Robert Schweikert wrote:

I guess that makes the bottom line rather clear, at least form my perspective. You HOPE that those that have the occasional laps of reason or those that exhibit tendencies of the issues described above will not subscribe to the new mailing list.

Good luck with that.

Later, Robert

I agree. The problem will just flood into the new mailing list if everybody moved over to that. The problem with the "me too's", off-topic posts, rants, etc., isn't precipitated by the name of the mailing list. It's the users that are subscribed to the list. So the protuberant issue here is regarding moderation; the new mailing list would be moderated differently because it technically would have new rules and/or more heavily enforced ones than those found here, whereas adding new rules or enforcing old ones to this age-old list could/would upset users. Not a bad tactic, but read between the lines. The goal seems to be to shut down this list completely at some point, but so far I haven't seen one email sent on the new opensuse-support list and I don't think this whole idea is going to pan out. If there are no subscribers there, the reasoning behind subscribing to the new list is fairly weak, and the community thus far seems to not be keen on the idea, then I see no reason to subscribe to the new list. So to recap, the issue at hand is moderation and user behaviour. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 30/05/18 01:44, sam@fnet.cx wrote:

On 05/29/2018 04:59 AM, Robert Schweikert wrote:

...

I guess that makes the bottom line rather clear, at least form my perspective. You HOPE that those that have the occasional laps of reason or those that exhibit tendencies of the issues described above will not subscribe to the new mailing list.

Good luck with that.

Later, Robert

I agree. The problem will just flood into the new mailing list if everybody moved over to that. The problem with the "me too's", off-topic posts, rants, etc., isn't precipitated by the name of the mailing list. It's the users that are subscribed to the list. So the protuberant issue here is regarding moderation; the new mailing list would be moderated differently because it technically would have new rules and/or more heavily enforced ones than those found here, whereas adding new rules or enforcing old ones to this age-old list could/would upset users. Not a bad tactic, but read between the lines. The goal seems to be to shut down this list completely at some point, but so far I haven't seen one email sent on the new opensuse-support list and I don't think this whole idea is going to pan out.

If there are no subscribers there, the reasoning behind subscribing to the new list is fairly weak, and the community thus far seems to not be keen on the idea, then I see no reason to subscribe to the new list. So to recap, the issue at hand is moderation and user behaviour.

A few random thoughts from me on this subject -- with no offence to anyone intended, if anyone finds any offence that is. The way I see things is that there is a claim expressed many times over recent time that Developers no longer have a presence in this list (opensuse@) because they are tired of reading posts which are offtopic, 'metoos', 'rants', et al. and for this reason the case is being made for the creation of a new mail list -- the opensuse-support@ -- which, miraculously, will solve that problem of not having Developers present in the mail list. The new list will also -- probably -- have Moderators who will keep the unwashed under control thus making the world habitable again. But the question has to be asked: why have specialised mail list like KDE, Factory, Artwork, Kernel, etc been created? Aren't these supposed to be where specific and topical questions are asked and where the Developers are meant to hang out? The complaint about 'opensuse@''s efficacy is perhaps a misconceived trumped-up complaint because some people have misinterpreted what the list is supposed to be about and have given a purpose to the list which is only the creation of their own minds. Look at how this list is/has been described in the list of Mail Lists available to be subscribed by users: <quote> opensuse     English     Generic questions and User to User support for all the openSUSE distributions </quote> Note the "User to User support" in particular and the "Generic questions" in general. No mention of Developer participation. "User to User support". I have a problem, imaginary or real, and I want to ask if anyone else has experienced this problem. Or I may have come across a problem about which I want to warn other users. However, in many cases rather than being given a response which may give me the answer or may simply advise me that so far no solution is known by THE USERS PARTICIPATING in this list, I am told not to ask the question in this list but to submit a bug report because, eg, Developers don't frequent this list. I want to know _beforehand_ if my imaginary/real problem is already known about _before_ I take the step of submitting a bug report -- but I am discouraged to do this and I may be deemed to be contributing to the "misuse" of this mail list and will probably even get a 'wack across the ears' by the 'Mail List Police'. So, we already have a list which is "User to User" support "for all openSUSE distributions". Why then create another list with the same purpose in mind? BC -- "..The times have been That, when the brains were out, the man would die,.." "Macbeth", Shakespeare -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-31-18 05:55]: [...]

So well, lets have "opensuse-support" to post those questions that before were asked on "opensuse-factory". Will developers be there to answer our questions, or just plain users and a few volunteers?

most likely, if that list contains meee2s and long discussions about why SUSE doesn't allow access to certain bug reports and if the next version will be names Jump, and what windows might do in this case, you will not see any dev's there. why would they waste their time sorting thru mountains of cruff for a few small crumbs? do you stay subscribed to lists where 95% of the conversation is irrelivant to your interests? -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-31-18 07:50]:

On 2018-05-31 13:44, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-31-18 05:55]:

[...]

...

So well, lets have "opensuse-support" to post those questions that before were asked on "opensuse-factory". Will developers be there to answer our questions, or just plain users and a few volunteers?

most likely, if that list contains meee2s and long discussions about why SUSE doesn't allow access to certain bug reports and if the next version will be names Jump, and what windows might do in this case, you will not see any dev's there. why would they waste their time sorting thru mountains of cruff for a few small crumbs? do you stay subscribed to lists where 95% of the conversation is irrelivant to your interests?

Can you promise that there will be devs there, even if those things you say don't happen?

no one can promise either but the likehood of them being present given the same conditions is very low. what would you do? you steer clear of the dog that bites, or your intelligence is questionable. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2 June 2018 at 07:38, Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:

On 31/05/18 22:00, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-31-18 07:50]:

...

On 2018-05-31 13:44, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [05-31-18 05:55]: [...]

...

So well, lets have "opensuse-support" to post those questions that before were asked on "opensuse-factory". Will developers be there to answer our questions, or just plain users and a few volunteers?

most likely, if that list contains meee2s and long discussions about why SUSE doesn't allow access to certain bug reports and if the next version will be names Jump, and what windows might do in this case, you will not see any dev's there. why would they waste their time sorting thru mountains of cruff for a few small crumbs? do you stay subscribed to lists where 95% of the conversation is irrelivant to your interests?

Can you promise that there will be devs there, even if those things you say don't happen?

no one can promise either but the likehood of them being present given the same conditions is very low. what would you do? you steer clear of the dog that bites, or your intelligence is questionable.

You know, Patrick, one of the great cliches being flogged to death here is "developers".

Who are these "developers" who are supposed to inhabit this list?

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a list somewhere of these "developers" and showing which area of expertise they are interested in/developing.

I am not saying this with any other intent except to actually have and look at a list of these persons, to "put a face to a name" so to speak.

Having read the list of "developers" it is then easier to mentally visualise that my question or observation or comment or opinion may be or will be read by <name of a real human person> and not by some mysterious entity called "developer" -- you know what I mean.

Basil, I don't think you realise just how silly your request is There is no way that any one person can realistically put a 'face to a name' for all of openSUSE's developers Counting them is hard, but let me give you some figures I can find quickly to give you some idea of the scope Statistics from OBS in 2017 (so a year out of date) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjnsskKgL6U Users of build.opensuse.org - 46891 Number of Build service submit requests in general - 515385 Number of Build service requests to openSUSE:Factory - ~160000 Number of source packages in openSUSE:Factory - 10762 Number of code checkins per day - ~2900 Number of packags being branched per day - ~300 Other things to consider Developers with direct commit access to 1 or more projects on github.com/openSUSE - 293 NOTE: Many more people contribute to openSUSE Projects via pull requests and so are not counted in this number, and that's not counting other openSUSE Projects on github like YaST and openQA. Current openSUSE Membership - 403, many of whom got there by their developer contributions According to research by Google, the human brain can handle about 150 "weak tie relationships", or people you can actually remember the active, daily, openSUSE developer community making changes to the software you love is significantly larger than 150 They need somewhere to be able to talk about big issues that impact the work they're doing. That is the intended purpose of opensuse-factory@opensuse.org. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2 June 2018 at 12:46, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:

On 2018-06-02 09:25, Richard Brown wrote:

...

On 2 June 2018 at 07:38, Basil Chupin <> wrote:

...

On 31/05/18 22:00, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

...

Statistics from OBS in 2017 (so a year out of date) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjnsskKgL6U

Users of build.opensuse.org - 46891

That number counts me, and I'm not a dev.

Of course, that's why I said "Counting them is hard" and provided other statistics for context, such as checkins and branches - two things I'm reasonably sure you have never done as you are not a dev. Though I really wish you would try, it would be far more beneficial for the Project than your habit of taking opportunities like this to obtuse on our lists ;) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 28/05/18 15:39, Simon Lees wrote:

On 28/05/18 22:07, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

Hey,

On 28.05.2018 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Firstly we have created a new opensuse-support@o.o mailing list

Can you please clarify what is the difference to opensuse@opensuse.org? I don't get it...

Henne

The board felt that have been many issues with the way at times opensuse@opensuse.org has offered support over the years this list as part of a community members assessment from the last days probably highlights some of the issues

* off-topic posts * derogatory posts * abusive posts * rants * extended rambling * me too's

We as the board are aware of a number of community members (including several on the board) who are willing to offer support to users but have since left the opensuse@ list or have mail filters because they thought it wasn't effectively fulfilling its role. There have been several attempts over the years to better focus the mailing list and improve the way it works none of which really worked that well and given the number of people that had left we felt the best way forward was to create a new list and hope that many of the people who previously left the old list join the new one. The board also discussed whether we really even still needed a mailing list for support or whether there was something else like the forums that would be a better place. As a user and maintainer that uses the opensuse list for both support

and to give support: Yes some of the threads are unreadable and sometimes too many are giving suggestions at the same time but I'm not going to subscribe to another mailing list. When I'm busy I scan through the Factory and opensuse list for issues that involve packages I maintain, I didn't even see the begining of this thread, just the stub that appeared on the project list from Henne. I'm subscribed to Factory, Build service, announce, project, opensuse and several developer lists for packages I maintain, sorry I just don't have time for another list. Dave Plater -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/28/2018 07:37 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hey,

On 28.05.2018 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Firstly we have created a new opensuse-support@o.o mailing list Can you please clarify what is the difference to opensuse@opensuse.org? I don't get it...

Henne

That makes tons of sense. Further fragmentation of what was once a single mailing list so we can now complain that the various fragments are not working as efficiently as they could? What is this list for if there is now a new support list? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, 29 May 2018 19:02:23 ACST Simon Lees wrote:

On 29/05/18 18:22, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

On 05/28/2018 07:37 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

Hey,

On 28.05.2018 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Firstly we have created a new opensuse-support@o.o mailing list

Can you please clarify what is the difference to opensuse@opensuse.org? I don't get it...

Henne

That makes tons of sense. Further fragmentation of what was once a single mailing list so we can now complain that the various fragments are not working as efficiently as they could?

What is this list for if there is now a new support list?

The board decided to wait and see how the new changes work out before discussing and deciding on the future of this list.

I've been running openSuSE since 11.x (switched from Fedora Core). The tewo main points that swung it for me were YaSt, and the user support provided by this mailing list. Unfortunately, with the fragmentation, getting (or providing/sharing) that same level of support/knowledge now means subscribing to more and more mailing lists, and the board seems to be doing their best to alienate some of the most faithful, regular contributors to the list. Honestly, if it wasn't for YaST, I'd have moved to debian years ago. Now, if only someone could provide a working build of YaST for debian... -- ============================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au CCNA #CSCO12880208 ============================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-05-29 18:37, Felix Miata wrote:

Rodney Baker composed on 2018-05-30 01:33 (UTC+0930):

...

...with the fragmentation, getting (or providing/sharing) that same level of support/knowledge now means subscribing to more and more mailing lists...

How is subscribing to more lists a real problem? Functionally, the only difference is subject lines include an extra substring that pigeonholes. I see that as a plus, at least for those who don't dump all posts that include the string suse into a single mail "folder", and those who sort alphabetically.

This too many lists argument seems motivated by lack of anything better to do than complain about trivia, or find one's own name in incoming mail.

The problem is having to subscribe to many lists, and then probably writing a bunch of filters for each. I have 19 at openSUSE, I think. And then, for the non-initiated, the next problem is where to post each question. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 29/05/18 19:32, Simon Lees wrote:

On 29/05/18 18:22, David C. Rankin wrote:

...

On 05/28/2018 07:37 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

Hey,

On 28.05.2018 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Firstly we have created a new opensuse-support@o.o mailing list Can you please clarify what is the difference to opensuse@opensuse.org? I don't get it...

Henne That makes tons of sense. Further fragmentation of what was once a single mailing list so we can now complain that the various fragments are not working as efficiently as they could?

What is this list for if there is now a new support list?

The board decided to wait and see how the new changes work out before discussing and deciding on the future of this list.

It will be of interest to read the Minutes of the meeting to fully appreciate this decision. BC -- "..The times have been That, when the brains were out, the man would die,.." "Macbeth", Shakespeare -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 31/05/2018 à 23:31, Richard Brown a écrit :

So after working far too many days on the trot without a break, I'm making the most of the last public holiday in May to take a well earned break.

with reason. enjoy :-) thanks jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 29/05/2018 à 10:52, David C. Rankin a écrit :

What is this list for if there is now a new support list?

probably prone to be shut off... jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 29/05/18 18:52, David C. Rankin wrote:

On 05/28/2018 07:37 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

Hey,

On 28.05.2018 13:51, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Firstly we have created a new opensuse-support@o.o mailing list Can you please clarify what is the difference to opensuse@opensuse.org? I don't get it...

Henne That makes tons of sense. Further fragmentation of what was once a single mailing list so we can now complain that the various fragments are not working as efficiently as they could?

What is this list for if there is now a new support list?

David, think about it ... if there is a new list doing the same thing then what would you do with a list which is little used, hmmm? BC -- "..The times have been That, when the brains were out, the man would die,.." "Macbeth", Shakespeare -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 29/05/18 00:20, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 28/05/18 07:51 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

...

This brings us to the next issue, posting bugs / bug reports on mailing lists rather then bugzilla. This is a practice we would like to see stopped and we will be gently reminding people if they continue posting bugs on mailinglists, this especially includes if a package / application breaks when updating tumbleweed / leap (including beta's).

I understand your concern. What you are complaining about is people too lazy or disinclined to use bugzilla to report valid bugs.

However ...

...

We would ask that you search for your issue prior to reporting

Not just on bugzilla but ...

I'm sure there are users less experienced than me who are unsure of themselves and unsure if what they see as something wrong is a bug or their own mistake. The mistake may be wrong assumptions about what is supposed to happen or it may be misconfiguration rather than a bug.

My experience has been that reporting my own mistakes and misconfiguration on bugzilla simply ends up in a WONTFIX. It may be that the developer didn't have time or patience to explain what *I* was doing wrong and that there really wasn't a bug, or it may be that (s)he didn't want to bothered tracing why this bug happens, what fringe/test-case brings it up.

And perhaps I'm not alone ...

So before reporting to bugzilla I ask on the list "Is this my mistake?"

To date, a better than 90% of the cases has been "MY mistake and guidance, often from people that I don't think would be opensuse-support@o.o. And yes, I've been referred to the kde- list and the btrfs- list and the xfs- list and the people there have always been helpful in telling me what I was doing wrong.

MY opinion is that using bugzilla as a 'first resort' will result in a lot of <strike>highly pissed off</strike> irritated developers as well as lots of even more <strike>highly pissed off</strike> irritated users.

Yes, opensuse-support@o.o will work, *IF* you publicise the hell out of it and keep telling people who subscribe, naturally enough, to the main and other lists. Perhaps you need a sign-up notice a monthly notice, such as the sort that Mailman can send, telling users about opensuse-support@o.o and the other lists, kde-, btrfs-, xfs- and so on, and to take specific problems there.

The biggest % of emails we see at the moment in the factory mailing list are along the lines of I did a zypper dup package XYZ broke, these are the sorts of things we would like to see bugs raised for. If you are setting up something for the first time or doing something different are are wondering if the issue is caused by your setup or a bug in the program then opensuse-support@ is the right place to ask your questions. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 05/28/2018 08:28 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

What is left for the main list? Are you saying it should be a social group?

As I've mentioned on another thread, the board would love to kill this list completely, as well as all the others. The Board!!! Not the developers, not the users, but the board. Users are expected to join 20 mailing lists, and know exactly which of those they dare post an issue upon, Its Not sufficient to know which department to file your complaint with, you must also know the desk, and which in-basket to use. I admit I grow weary of long running wandering threads, as people devolve into discussing the minutia of side issues, often leaving the original poster hanging in suspense. Also annoying are the long copy-pastes of pointless console output that help nobody. But I delete the threads and move on. Mostly what gets posted here are user-to-user questions. Nobody here is under the slightest delusion that any developers participate here. Just other users that may have seen a similar issue. Bug Reports? chuckle.... The MAJORITY of Bug reports are closed two years later when that release falls out of maintenance, or marked as a duplicate of another bug, which is eventually marked as won't fix two years later. There seems nowhere one can ask a question of other users, without invoking the wrath of the board, or the swift admonition to go join another mailing list and post your problem there. I'm thinking the Forum would be a better place. It is for Manjaro, but I'm not so sure it is for Opensuse. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 28/05/18 20:46, John Andersen wrote:

...

As I've mentioned on another thread, the board would love to kill this list completely, as well as all the others.  The Board!!!  Not the developers, not the users, but the board.

 - Board Policy ?? : could it be , concentrate  on ENTERPRISE , ONLY .......  regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 28/05/18 02:24 PM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

I read the list to follow what other's problems are, because I'm prone to get them also :-)

Yes, that's it exactly. Perhaps someone should note the items and compile a 'database' or 'how-to' or a 'what-to-avoid' ... oh, wait ... -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 29/05/18 04:26 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

The introduction of opensuse-support@ is meant to make it clear where all support issues can be emailed.

Then you are going to have to publicise the hell out that! Not just on many web 'landing pages' but as the Mailman-style monthly notices to everyone on every other list as well. And you are going to have to tell them why they should be using opensuse-support@ rather than take their kde problems to opensuse-kde@ and so on for LXDE, XFCE, Gnome, GO, Ruby, .... etc etc etc. never mind the varous non-english language lists. And after all, this list is supposed to be about "Generic questions and User to User support for all the openSUSE distributions". Note that: "User to User support" Note that: "Generic questions" -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/29/2018 02:27 PM, Fraser_Bell wrote:

On 05/29/2018 01:26 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 05/28/2018 08:28 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

As I've mentioned on another thread, the board would love to kill this list completely, as well as all the others.  The Board!!!  Not the developers, not the users, but the board.

Come on, Anton.  This is a Flame and is a Derogatory Personal Attack, completely against openSUSE's Policy and Guiding Principles.

In Anton's defense, the quoting in this snippit is totally hozed, and the triple quoted lines are mine, and not Anton's. But I stand by them. Its clear the board would like to kill off the opensuse list. Brown threatened to do just that. As did Lee's (with just a bit more subtlety). People were banned. The board dictated. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 29/05/2018 à 23:27, Fraser_Bell a écrit :

Indeed. The best Forums on the net, in my NOT so humble opinion.

but not the most seen on google, by far. One need to add "opensuse" to the search to get them... and IMHO harder to follow than any mailing list... but this may not be the point. I have nothing against changing the list name, but do not think this will change much the result. Teach people to filter will be better. In France we hear about ubuntu, mint, but rarely about opensuse... too bad. I made my own efforts to change this, but I'm ow too old to continue, sorry, so do what you want and I expect the better jdd NB: I subscribed to the new list... -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 29/05/18 04:46 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Just what constitutes "filing a bug" on a mailing list? There are many posts on opensuse-factory@, that are along the lines of I updated to the latest snapshot and XYZ broke, these are what we'd prefer to have as bugreports.

Oh, yes, I can see that. The key being "... I updated to the latest snapshot..." But there are many that are clearly misunderstandings or lack of understanding that are not bugs. I recall I tried converting one file system to XFS to try things out with that FS and everything was fine until I rebooted. I had the sense not to do this with a major FS, is I could keep my system running despite the problems. There's nothing wrong with XFS, it was wrong with me. Not a bug. Filing a bug would have resulted in a NOTABUG or a WONTFIX and left me floundering. This wasn't a bug and it wasn't a support issue, it was an issue that was fixed by the 'wisdom of crowds', which is the way the forum works. There was no 'latest snapshot'. There was no bug. There is a LOT of lack of deep understanding about specific subsystems on the part of many parties. perhaps it is documented, but it isn't always easy to find. It's all very well to say 'Go Google", and many of us do but find not solution. In many ways the Mint, Arc and Ubuntu have more stuff online, but so much of it is long winded, petty discussions in formats that have so much 'whitespace' and 'overhead', that it is hard to get to the relevant stuff. it's not that openSUSE documentation is any better, certainly not compared to RedHat, but what *is* important is that somewhere in the 'wisdom in crowds' is that someone can give a reference. Perhaps a reference to the matter already having been covered in the list, but lets face it, the search tools for the lists are abysmal. Yes, you are 100% correct about the "... I updated to the latest snapshot..." items needing to be bug reports. In that case we ARE dealing with new code, changes to code and configuration. But a lot of what comes up at the main forum is not about new code. It is about people doing things differently, using programs which do not do as they expect even though the program is quite OK. It is about expectations. These are not bugs. In many ways they don't even constitute support issues in the sense that pay-for-support is meant. There are a lot of programs that are quite complex and have many, many facilities whose details are complex. Perhaps they are documented, in a manual six inches thick if it were to be printed (I'll skip the 'Beware of the Leopard' sign on the lavatory door part). So you come to use a new module and hit a "DUH?" and the best way to have it solved is by a mentor. It is abut 'individual wisdom and experience' that is absent from the formal 'support' process, the formal bug processing system. Back in the AIX days I mentioned the reality was that I knew more about UNIX-per-UNIX and the upper layers of the kernel than the people doing support, and in some cases the developers down in Austin, Texas. At one point I was telling them what the code on their screens was and they were treating to sue me for infringement. I hadn't told them that I'd worked on the that code as a UNIX developer myself. Apparently I reduced one of them to tears. But while my knowledge was systematic it was also getting out of date. *I* couldn't do that today, but I'm sure that there are users on this list who do have specific knowledge and experience on USING the software that even surpasses that of the developers. That's what I mean by 'wisdom in crowds'. Then there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsolving which is quite another matter. But don't ignore it. You don't get that with the formal ideas of 'support'. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Le 29/05/2018 à 15:16, Simon Lees a écrit :

On 29/05/18 22:43, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 29/05/18 04:46 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

(lot of lines removed)

...

which is quite another matter. But don't ignore it. You don't get that with the formal ideas of 'support'.

Yes and the new correct locations to gain your wisdom from crowds are either opensuse-support@ or the openSUSE forums.

isn't that things we should try to avoid (page length quotes for two line answer? I know it's difficult from pĥhone... but then better not answer at all (sorry, it was you but could have been many others :-() jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 29/05/18 15:16, Simon Lees wrote:

On 29/05/18 22:43, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 29/05/18 04:46 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

...

...

Just what constitutes "filing a bug" on a mailing list? There are many posts on opensuse-factory@, that are along the lines of I updated to the latest snapshot and XYZ broke, these are what we'd prefer to have as bugreports.

Oh, yes, I can see that. The key being "... I updated to the latest snapshot..."

But there are many that are clearly misunderstandings or lack of understanding that are not bugs. I recall I tried converting one file system to XFS to try things out with that FS and everything was fine until I rebooted. I had the sense not to do this with a major FS, is I could keep my system running despite the problems. There's nothing wrong with XFS, it was wrong with me. Not a bug. Filing a bug would have resulted in a NOTABUG or a WONTFIX and left me floundering. This wasn't a bug and it wasn't a support issue, it was an issue that was fixed by the 'wisdom of crowds', which is the way the forum works.

There was no 'latest snapshot'. There was no bug.

There is a LOT of lack of deep understanding about specific subsystems on the part of many parties. perhaps it is documented, but it isn't always easy to find. It's all very well to say 'Go Google", and many of us do but find not solution. In many ways the Mint, Arc and Ubuntu have more stuff online, but so much of it is long winded, petty discussions in formats that have so much 'whitespace' and 'overhead', that it is hard to get to the relevant stuff. it's not that openSUSE documentation is any better, certainly not compared to RedHat, but what *is* important is that somewhere in the 'wisdom in crowds' is that someone can give a reference. Perhaps a reference to the matter already having been covered in the list, but lets face it, the search tools for the lists are abysmal.

Yes, you are 100% correct about the "... I updated to the latest snapshot..." items needing to be bug reports. In that case we ARE dealing with new code, changes to code and configuration.

But a lot of what comes up at the main forum is not about new code. It is about people doing things differently, using programs which do not do as they expect even though the program is quite OK. It is about expectations. These are not bugs. In many ways they don't even constitute support issues in the sense that pay-for-support is meant.

There are a lot of programs that are quite complex and have many, many facilities whose details are complex. Perhaps they are documented, in a manual six inches thick if it were to be printed (I'll skip the 'Beware of the Leopard' sign on the lavatory door part). So you come to use a new module and hit a "DUH?" and the best way to have it solved is by a mentor. It is abut 'individual wisdom and experience' that is absent from the formal 'support' process, the formal bug processing system.

Back in the AIX days I mentioned the reality was that I knew more about UNIX-per-UNIX and the upper layers of the kernel than the people doing support, and in some cases the developers down in Austin, Texas. At one point I was telling them what the code on their screens was and they were treating to sue me for infringement. I hadn't told them that I'd worked on the that code as a UNIX developer myself. Apparently I reduced one of them to tears. But while my knowledge was systematic it was also getting out of date. *I* couldn't do that today, but I'm sure that there are users on this list who do have specific knowledge and experience on USING the software that even surpasses that of the developers.

That's what I mean by 'wisdom in crowds'.

Then there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdsolving which is quite another matter. But don't ignore it. You don't get that with the formal ideas of 'support'.

Yes and the new correct locations to gain your wisdom from crowds are either opensuse-support@ or the openSUSE forums.

You are ordering me to subscribe to another list to correctly maintain my packages? Dave Plater -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/29/2018 11:09 AM, cagsm wrote:

Forums is for webtards ;p and bugreport is for proper precise reporting with already distilled details.

Unfair, and rather insulting. New users can post in a forum, and some one or two people can take them in hand and lead them to a solution or maybe @mention someone else known to be knowledgeable on the subject at hand and thereby call their attention to the thread. But the rest of the forum can just stay away from that thread, and never have it filling their mailbox weeks or months after it has wandered off track. Bug reports are where you go once you are sure the problem is real, after talking to other, on a list or a forum. -- After all is said and done, more is said than done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/30/2018 05:02 AM, John Andersen wrote:

On 05/29/2018 11:09 AM, cagsm wrote:

...

Forums is for webtards ;p and bugreport is for proper precise reporting with already distilled details.

Unfair, and rather insulting.

New users can post in a forum, and some one or two people can take them in hand and lead them to a solution or maybe @mention someone else known to be knowledgeable on the subject at hand and thereby call their attention to the thread.

But the rest of the forum can just stay away from that thread, and never have it filling their mailbox weeks or months after it has wandered off track.

Bug reports are where you go once you are sure the problem is real, after talking to other, on a list or a forum.

Yes I totally agree. And I might also mention this. Sometimes forums and/or lists such as this help a user get a temporary fix to a problem working while waiting for the bug report to run its course and have the real fix implemented. I have had the experience in which I needed to get something working NOW, and I put in a bug report to get it going, but then the list or forum gave me an idea that would help me work around the problem until the bug fix was in. That way I was able to continue working, then once the fix was completed and tested, I switched what I was doing away from the temporary solution to the fixed problem. In such a case the list helped me continue working, so that I didn't have to wait for however long for a developer to be able to allocate time and work on the problem. I am not being critical of the developers - they do a great job. But sometimes there is too much work for them to do, and they can't get to your problem right away. I am rarely in a position where I can sit, wait, and put productivity on hold for a week or 2 while the problem is being fixed. I usually need to find some alternate solution until the problem is fixed, or I won't be able to get some critical task completed. This list has been instrumental in helping me keep productivity going. -- George Box: 42.3 | KDE Plasma 5.8 | AMD Phenom IIX4 | 64 | 32GB Laptop #1: 42.3 | KDE Plasma 5.8 | AMD FX 7TH GEN | 64 | 32GB Laptop #2: 42.3 | KDE Plasma 5.8 | Core i5 | 64 | 8GB -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/12/2018 04:20 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

On 12 June 2018 at 09:58, George from the tribe <tech@reachthetribes.org> wrote:

...

Yes I totally agree. And I might also mention this. Sometimes forums and/or lists such as this help a user get a temporary fix to a problem working while waiting for the bug report to run its course and have the real fix implemented. I have had the experience in which I needed to get something working NOW, and I put in a bug report to get it going, but then the list or forum gave me an idea that would help me work around the problem until the bug fix was in. That way I was able to continue working, then once the fix was completed and tested, I switched what I was doing away from the temporary solution to the fixed problem.

Workarounds should be documented on the bug inside bugzilla, not scattered across various forums, mailinglists, or IRC rooms

We have a single authoritative source for the information regarding bugs. If people are discussing bugs and finding workarounds on forums or lists, fine, but if they are not updating that information in the bug on bugzilla, they are doing a huge disservice for the Project as a whole and increasing workload and pressure on our developers;

as a developer there's few things more annoying and demotivating than hurriedly working a solution that your bug tracker says is critical and urgent and horrible just to find that there was a workaround and the problem could have been prioritised behind two or three equally nasty problems that do not have a workaround.

Don't delude yourself that taking conversations away from Bugzilla helps anybody, it does not.

That is a very good point and a good reminder. It certainly makes sense that we should be keeping in communication with you all, the developers, when you are working together with us on solving a problem, and not keeping you guys in the dark if we find a workaround through the forums. Which is why it seems that if everyone does things properly, the forums and lists can be a help to solving bugs, rather than a competition. A real synergistic effect can result which benefits everyone - users, developers, and improvement of the entire system. It is a marketplace of ideas in action. If we (users and developers) act only in self-interest, there is limited benefit to only a small group of people. However, if we act in our own interests AND the interests of the group, there are wide ranging beneficial effects. -- George Box: 42.3 | KDE Plasma 5.8 | AMD Phenom IIX4 | 64 | 32GB Laptop #1: 42.3 | KDE Plasma 5.8 | AMD FX 7TH GEN | 64 | 32GB Laptop #2: 42.3 | KDE Plasma 5.8 | Core i5 | 64 | 8GB -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/06/18 19:28, George from the tribe wrote:

On 05/28/2018 07:51 PM, Simon Lees wrote:

...

The board has decided that it would like to see how well these changes work before deciding to add / remove / change openSUSE's mailing lists further. Although we have discussed several other possibilities that we could also try in the future.

Just think I will chime in here. In reading many of the responses, so many people have good things to say about this. Of course I respect the board for wanting to improve things, but I will just offer my opinion FWIW.

First, as an opensuse user with a very busy life, one thing that I find very helpful about this list is that it is general in nature. I can read posts and threads that have to do with general security, some international business related item that connects to the use of linux, or a highly technical thread about how to re-configure a graphics card. The reason it is so helpful like that is that this list is primarily a bunch of users just getting together and helping each other in any way we can. I really like the sense of community that this list generates, and that is completely dependent on its general nature.

As far as the abuse and rants go, here is my take. I have been "yelled" at, cussed at, and told (indirectly) that I basically didn't have a clue about what I was doing. I have also been thanked profusely when I have offered a helpful hint. None of those things bother me. Of course I don't want to make a mistake, but if I do, I am happy that someone is willing to point it out, even if in a somewhat stronger way than I am comfortable with.

What do all those things mean? It means we are a group of human beings, imperfect, all trying to make something work better and trying to help each other in our imperfect ways. Sometimes someone may have a bad day and post something more negative than he/she would normally post. I think we should just remember that we are all fellow human beings trying to make this work, and don't want to be subject to an organization that forces some kind of centralized control, like Microsoft. In any human community there will be strong and weak feelings, experts and novices, and everything else that encompasses interactive human behavior.

So even with the all the difficulties, I have always felt that this list functions well, in exactly the way it was designed. A general mailing list that promotes the development of a community of users, and these users help each other.

My first look for keeping up with opensuse, especially when I am very busy with other things, is to check this list. A lot of times I don't have time to go and look at multiple forums or multiple other lists. But I try not to miss keeping up with this list.

Anyway, I hope that adds some value to the discussion.

The counter to this at least in the feedback the board has received is that many people willing to offer support don't like having to filter through the "Noise" of the general mails in this list then eventually unsubscribe and no longer offer help. Which is why we have split the list, after all its not hard to subscribe to a second list and this gives users more choice in what emails they receive. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 11/06/18 22:14, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 10/06/18 09:08 PM, Simon Lees wrote:

...

after all its not hard to subscribe to a second list and this gives users more choice in what emails they receive.

Indeed, and given the power of modern email systems and handling it is not hard to set up filters. As others have pointed out, many did that back in the days when lists carried many times the volume that this one does today.

Personally I consider these meta-discussion to be every bit as important, if not more, than the technical Q&A, which might be more appropriate on a StackExchange model than a mailing list.

Sorry, Simon, I'm not a reductionist, I'm not obsessive-compulsive. I consider the "social niceties' to be the cushion that makes the brutality of computers and information processing liveable.

Yep i'm well aware of mail filters, I use them extensively I get 10k+ email a month, its very easy to write a filter that puts opensuse-support@ emails in a support folder and another one that puts opensuse@ emails into a discussion folder, what is somewhat harder is creating filters that read a subject line and go this is support or this is general discussion, especially when threads on this list seem to regularly wander from being a support topic to a general discussion one. I like many people enjoy the social niceties of being part of the openSUSE community, I have made many good friends here and I don't think that it should stop, its just that many people are social in many different ways and would rather the social and the support be separated in terms of mailing lists so they can be part of one and not the other. On irc which i'm much more familiar with then our support lists we have always had a very strict rule that the support channel is only for support and if you want to chat we have a separate chat channel for those who want to be a part of it, personally I think a similar approach to these mailing lists makes sense, which is partly why I voted for a support@ mailing list, for me into the future there is still a question of naming, in my mind maybe opensuse@ would be better linking to the opensuse-project@ mailing list and this list should become opensuse-chat@ or similar personally i'm not sure which is best and I don't care enough to raise it as an issue with the board that we should change right now. But personally I think it would be good to keep a semi social general discussion list of some form available to the community because there is obviously a part of the community that uses and enjoys it. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 12 June 2018 at 08:40, jdd@dodin.org <jdd@dodin.org> wrote:

opensuse@ list is good to have an idea how the distro works, for example I only made some test Leap 15 installs and, reading this very list, have some ideas of problems I may have when dealing with main install.

Yes but that is also part of the problem. The nature and personal configurations of some of the most vocal people on this list are not representative of the openSUSE Project as a whole. Case in point - reading this list would provide many users the perception that btrfs is an unreliable piece of shit that eats all of your disk space, doesn't have repair tools, uses experimental features, and installs btrfsprogs unnecessarily with gparted. And yet it has been the default in all openSUSE and SLE distributions for years now. Chaos is not following. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of systems are now using it. Improvements have been made to snappers use of disk space. It has extensive repair tools and well documented processes on how to use them [1] We use no experimental or unstable features [2] and btrfsprogs is no different from xfsprogs, e2fsprogs and every other filesystem tool that is required by gparted But despite all of those being undebatable facts, uninformed opposing views are spouted with such frequency on this list I feel this list is next to useless for advice on the topic of btrfs, and that is just one simple example where the community on this list is divergent with reality and/or the general direction of the wider openSUSE Project. [1] https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:BTRFS#How_to_repair_a_broken.2Funmountable_btrfs... [2] https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Status -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-06-12 11:05, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

NB: I know some Linux nntp usenet forum where I simply could *never* post, because all my posts where rejected for a reason or an other

That is most probably a problem with your nntp service provider. Some require subscription first. I use one for a monthly fee. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE, Leap 15.0 x86_64 (ssd-test)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-06-12 12:54, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 12/06/2018 à 12:37, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

On 2018-06-12 11:05, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

...

NB: I know some Linux nntp usenet forum where I simply could *never* post, because all my posts where rejected for a reason or an other

That is most probably a problem with your nntp service provider. Some require subscription first. I use one for a monthly fee.

no, rejected by moderator :-(

Ah, a private group. That's the exception on usenet. And talking about usenet, there are some open Linux groups on usenet, and one "suse" that is active. alt.os.linux.opensuse practically inactive alt.os.linux.suse active alt.os.linux active alt.linux practically inactive alt.comp.os.linux little active alt.comp.linux little active usenet is not what it was, but there are some people there and which refuse apparently to post on mail lists or forums. And also don't write bugzillas, no matter how I try. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE, Leap 15.0 x86_64 (ssd-test)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-06-12 11:05, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 12/06/2018 à 10:10, Richard Brown a écrit :

...

Case in point - reading this list would provide many users the perception that btrfs is an unreliable piece of shit that eats all of

Everybody have to understand than mailing lists and forums are mostly used by people having problems, that don't mean the product is faulty.

True. And the alternative of censoring people that tell their horror histories is not appropriate. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE, Leap 15.0 x86_64 (ssd-test)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 13/06/18 22:44, Anton Aylward wrote:

On 12/06/18 04:10 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

Chaos is not following.

The implications of what you are saying is that we should be statistically normal, that we should not be, should not pay attention to, the 'fringe' cases that 'test' the non-normative conditions.

Normative debates, as opposed to Empirical debates, are debates that require action on a specific topic and a model to implement the idea put forward in the topic, and, predominately, can be signified by the use of the word 'should' in the topic.

Eventually, Richard, when all the argumentation is done, you are saying the 'Empiricists' have no value. That too is why openSuse is 'depreciating' things like ReiserFS, which has proven EXTREMELY reliable and demonstrates the triumph of good design than the 'cut it an see' iterations that depend on bugzilla reports and fixes that are needed to make progress.

Ok i'll bite, openSUSE as a project did not deprecate ReiserFS, openSUSE as a project does not deprecate any software. The openSUSE maintainer of ReiserFS decided to deprecate ReiserFS as they did not want to maintain it in openSUSE anymore. Should another qualified maintainer come along and decide to step up and maintain ReiserFS it will no longer be deprecated but unless someone does the work it won't exist. This is the same for every piece of software in openSUSE. Comments like yours are just another example of what Richard is talking about in that many regular contributors to this list just simply do not know or understand the basics of how the project works. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 2018-06-14 03:25, Simon Lees wrote:

On 13/06/18 22:44, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 12/06/18 04:10 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

Chaos is not following.

The implications of what you are saying is that we should be statistically normal, that we should not be, should not pay attention to, the 'fringe' cases that 'test' the non-normative conditions.

Normative debates, as opposed to Empirical debates, are debates that require action on a specific topic and a model to implement the idea put forward in the topic, and, predominately, can be signified by the use of the word 'should' in the topic.

Eventually, Richard, when all the argumentation is done, you are saying the 'Empiricists' have no value. That too is why openSuse is 'depreciating' things like ReiserFS, which has proven EXTREMELY reliable and demonstrates the triumph of good design than the 'cut it an see' iterations that depend on bugzilla reports and fixes that are needed to make progress.

Ok i'll bite, openSUSE as a project did not deprecate ReiserFS, openSUSE as a project does not deprecate any software. The openSUSE maintainer of ReiserFS decided to deprecate ReiserFS as they did not want to maintain it in openSUSE anymore. Should another qualified maintainer come along and decide to step up and maintain ReiserFS it will no longer be deprecated but unless someone does the work it won't exist. This is the same for every piece of software in openSUSE.

No. Reiserfs was not deprecated. Someone modified YaST to refuse upgrade if there are reiserfs partitions listed in fstab, but the kernel supports reiserfs just fine. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE, Leap 15.0 x86_64 (ssd-test)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-06-14 12:03, Simon Lees wrote:

On 14/06/18 18:22, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2018-06-14 03:25, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 13/06/18 22:44, Anton Aylward wrote:

...

On 12/06/18 04:10 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

Chaos is not following.

The implications of what you are saying is that we should be statistically normal, that we should not be, should not pay attention to, the 'fringe' cases that 'test' the non-normative conditions.

Normative debates, as opposed to Empirical debates, are debates that require action on a specific topic and a model to implement the idea put forward in the topic, and, predominately, can be signified by the use of the word 'should' in the topic.

Eventually, Richard, when all the argumentation is done, you are saying the 'Empiricists' have no value. That too is why openSuse is 'depreciating' things like ReiserFS, which has proven EXTREMELY reliable and demonstrates the triumph of good design than the 'cut it an see' iterations that depend on bugzilla reports and fixes that are needed to make progress.

Ok i'll bite, openSUSE as a project did not deprecate ReiserFS, openSUSE as a project does not deprecate any software. The openSUSE maintainer of ReiserFS decided to deprecate ReiserFS as they did not want to maintain it in openSUSE anymore. Should another qualified maintainer come along and decide to step up and maintain ReiserFS it will no longer be deprecated but unless someone does the work it won't exist. This is the same for every piece of software in openSUSE.

No. Reiserfs was not deprecated. Someone modified YaST to refuse upgrade if there are reiserfs partitions listed in fstab, but the kernel supports reiserfs just fine.

Ok well that still wasn't a decision of the openSUSE project, that was a decision that the yast developers didn't want to / have time to / have a business case to add reiserfs support to the new yast storage module, yast is open source if a developer was passionate enough about adding it they may well accept contributions in this area.

No, you still misunderstand. There is no need at all to add reiserfs support to yast. Instead, they added a check to refuse upgrading at all, instead of just ignoring the entry in fstab. I have a multiboot system, and there are old installs in the disks that were done back in the day using reiserfs, not affecting the system that was being upgraded this time. The only thing that is needed is for fstab to be left as is, and just show a warning that YaST does not support reiserfs. I upgraded the system with zypper dup instead to 15.0, which uses the reiserfs partitions just fine. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 10 June 2018 at 11:58, George from the tribe <tech@reachthetribes.org> wrote:

What do all those things mean? It means we are a group of human beings, imperfect, all trying to make something work better and trying to help each other in our imperfect ways. Sometimes someone may have a bad day and post something more negative than he/she would normally post. I think we should just remember that we are all fellow human beings trying to make this work, and don't want to be subject to an organization that forces some kind of centralized control, like Microsoft. In any human community there will be strong and weak feelings, experts and novices, and everything else that encompasses interactive human behavior.

So even with the all the difficulties, I have always felt that this list functions well, in exactly the way it was designed. A general mailing list that promotes the development of a community of users, and these users help each other.

My first look for keeping up with opensuse, especially when I am very busy with other things, is to check this list. A lot of times I don't have time to go and look at multiple forums or multiple other lists. But I try not to miss keeping up with this list.

Anyway, I hope that adds some value to the discussion.

It does, and in many ways you sum up many of my own feelings about this list now. But I feel there is an important clarification to add This list is "a community of users", not "the community of users". And this is part of the problem The list is named opensuse@opensuse.org - not opensuse-users@ or opensuse-chat@ but the name brings with it an implicit "officialness" which is hard to shake. Like you say yourself you use this list for your "first look" on keeping up with opensuse And yet the simple fact is that the general disconnect between the regulars of this list and the general direction of the Project is vast. This list is regularly home to many negative discussions about many things which the openSUSE community-at-large have embraced for years now. As examples, systemd, Leap, Tumbleweed all have regular time getting scorn from vocal members of this community, when the simple facts are the community at large not only support such things, they built them. Despite the openSUSE community growing in significant numbers, both in terms of users and contributors, we see the readership of this list remaining mostly static - which strongly implies that disconnect between _this_ community and the _wider_ openSUSE community risks just getting wider and wider. The perception that this list is home to vocal malcontents have proven to be impossible to counter via any means, subtle or direct. People can recall some of the negative feedback I received in response to some of those direct efforts I and the Board were involved in. There are people on this list spewing hateful vitriol in my direction to this day. With the exception of Per and Carlos, I can't easily name any of the regular participants of this list as active contributors to the project. And that is too small a starting point to realistically bridge the gap. So speaking individually I have given all hope of encouraging many contributors to participate in this list. I currently hold no hope that this list will ever reflect the opensuse community at large. Which is why I fully support the Board's current efforts to establish opensuse-support@ as a new, official, project-wide support list. I have hope there we can build something the project needs; a support list where the majority of participants are aligned with the current direction of the project. And we can attempt doing so without directly impeding the separate, unique community that has formed on this list. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 11 June 2018 at 14:50, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:

On 11/06/18 03:53 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

And we can attempt doing so without directly impeding the separate, unique community that has formed on this list.

Thank you for the longer meta-discussion, Richard.

I've chose that sentence to reply to of all you say because what I've seen in this thread is often a response to the, possibly implied, possibly stated, "threat" to shut down this list after opensuse-support@ becomes established.

If you can clarify and guarantee that shut down will not happen then a lot of this discussion will go away as there is no basis for it.

I am in no position to give any such guarantees - for this list or any other. The Board makes decisions. The Board consists of 5 other people besides myself. I cannot speak to the will of my 5 current colleagues nor any future colleagues the community elects in the coming years. Therefore I will not promise that the Board in the future will not consider or decide something in that future I do promise that there has been no such decision regarding this list to date, and as my long 'meta-discussion' post should indicate, I would describe the current mood of the current Board being one that is keen to explore options that should hopefully avoid the need for any such decision in the future. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, i read the most of this mailing-list "changes going forward". but still, i have no idea where to asked my questions, maybe my english is to bad, maybe there where no clear enough explanation i understand, maybe i have not 100% read this. could anybody make this clear for me, i do not like to waste other peoples time and i am willing to try to use the correct mailing-list: lets make some example's: (some real problems at the moment:) 1) question: a (this) package has a problem: gcad3d2.352+git20170420.b5668e9-1.1.rpm -- i asked this on this list what to do. because no answer, so maybe wrong list, but i do not know. meanwhile i have contacted upstream and packer and got responds from both, so i think problem will be in future fixed. but, where to asked if i do something wrong with installation or if it IS a package problem? - here I found by myself out it IS not a local installation problem, its a package problem., but after receive infos from packer, its not a package but a upstream problem. but often i do NOT find this out by myself so, where to ask? 2) question "how did virt-manager shut down guests if the host will be shut down, will it kill the guests, or will it send the power-down event (and of course if the os in guest reacts) go down normal and if it is like this where could i set the waiting time before killing guest (if need to long to shut down guest os normal) and if it normally kills, how to write a script if host kills guests when shutdown, and stop shutdown, send power down to guest, wait some time, and continue with host shutdown????? (because i think at my local installation time is to short or i reconfigured something it will only kill) 3) after a update tumbleweed "dup" something will not work as before, question: is this known, (because i am not able to debug some stuff by myselfe, i am only user) should i provide more info, and IF, how do i provide more info SOMETIMES i am not able to bring such problems to a POINT to "name" it in therms of a seach sting for the problem to use search engines. telling me: search in bugzilla will therefore not help me. i feel for me all 3 questions are support questions, because I need "support@" to go further. but the third should maybe go to tumbleweed="factory@" or are this all general questions and should be asked (at "opensuse@" it would be very fine, if this would be made clear for me. and maybe write what group of questions (with examples) should go to what list. ... writing "support" questions should go to support@ is not helpful, because ALL software-hardware-questions need in some way some support (in (my) german translation) to fix. regards, simoN - -- www.becherer.de -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJbHpn1AAoJEOuDxDCJWQG+DOYP/1v1TEAhzO1Zp4LdCUSJfape iX8Mz9kXoL+IXkH3zh5+rGIQ7WGaVCT+aEWJz8kODkIyRLRHlYDdmHwXsi943uOq B7MA91+pfZJUfNbM5peqOh4FhXynmFbOBlgM8sKlN2oKnN2hD11oj6Cr5f9PU2DU P0tjI6ncRcIXCB3A9gIm51hn3/rVyKdg4k/rNTYq9WXPiOsC/8CUDapPlHLxa1BW 5bGjIioetxcXF8sWGHaDvqhoa8a6B3l0cMHZIKuoe8SbBuVgesEx5Qwnj26tlEax FkNQFcgFfIPk8CnsFPCQMXn8UXW49sKCH92F6inA+/IJ9/d7YDr/2LRDacLd2mSH ksnHOP8gjMUcYCNsnvjdytSwDAydbzaY7AlbgWdGiAcqxPYh5j/eMF+kwdcg/ARP QR3bvr89o2q0NQgs7eBVpPmSpdESAfG4iegE9S3qQNgK0KtRW9XN6cztHuGbEoy4 lHIpyRYNGi8tmU+cPPGNbTN1MJ01cHQbKc54kGsEoeDBGeNKHS2wUmbCMohv1g5d Z7JOUfhqjxtCOK7TwjareelbNlcnDAUyc7tU2xZqM3z+gVttOqMpKHQt+Wufa42X luFu6lV3mXI+fkOLl+mfXrWe88U0K9ojK7T7BAkQkQy6NpN/D/DBsYrA9w0vHz8L C6uTsaW0I5qLd2buXk9h =mUHR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-06-12 07:45, Simon Lees wrote:

On 12/06/18 01:19, Simon Becherer wrote:

...

Hi,

i read the most of this mailing-list "changes going forward". but still, i have no idea where to asked my questions, maybe my english is to bad, maybe there where no clear enough explanation i understand, maybe i have not 100% read this.

could anybody make this clear for me, i do not like to waste other peoples time and i am willing to try to use the correct mailing-list:

lets make some example's:

(some real problems at the moment:)

1) question: a (this) package has a problem: gcad3d2.352+git20170420.b5668e9-1.1.rpm -- i asked this on this list what to do. because no answer, so maybe wrong list, but i do not know. meanwhile i have contacted upstream and packer and got responds from both, so i think problem will be in future fixed. but, where to asked if i do something wrong with installation or if it IS a package problem? - here I found by myself out it IS not a local installation problem, its a package problem., but after receive infos from packer, its not a package but a upstream problem. but often i do NOT find this out by myself so, where to ask?

Once you are reasonably sure in this case that its not a local problem the best approach is to contact the openSUSE maintainer through bugzilla they can then determine if its an openSUSE or upstream issue, then if your happy to you can create an upstream bug report if not its the maintainers job to do it.

But how can a user know that "its not a local problem" if he doesn't know himself? By asking on the mail list...

...

2) question "how did virt-manager shut down guests if the host will be shut down, will it kill the guests, or will it send the power-down event (and of course if the os in guest reacts) go down normal and if it is like this where could i set the waiting time before killing guest (if need to long to shut down guest os normal) and if it normally kills, how to write a script if host kills guests when shutdown, and stop shutdown, send power down to guest, wait some time, and continue with host shutdown????? (because i think at my local installation time is to short or i reconfigured something it will only kill)

here you could as opensuse-support@o.o or try the virt-manager mailing list or irc channel (I found both in 2 seconds on there home page). That is because this is mostly a question about how an upstream project works.

...

3) after a update tumbleweed "dup" something will not work as before, question: is this known, (because i am not able to debug some stuff by myselfe, i am only user) should i provide more info, and IF, how do i provide more info SOMETIMES i am not able to bring such problems to a POINT to "name" it in therms of a seach sting for the problem to use search engines. telling me: search in bugzilla will therefore not help me.

have your best shot at searching bugzilla quickly, if you find nothing its not a problem,

At this point, if in doubt ask in mail list, IMO. Other people may know and tell you what the problem is or to report in bugzilla.

report the issue against the broken package as you type the bug title bugzilla will give you hints towards what could be another similar issue. If you don't see anything there then create the issue. Should the issue be a duplicate it takes 5 seconds for the maintainer to mark it as such and you haven't wasted anyones time.

And sometimes we do not get a response in years. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE, Leap 15.0 x86_64 (ssd-test)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/06/18 06:45 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Once you are reasonably sure in this case that its not a local problem the best approach is to contact the openSUSE maintainer through bugzilla they can then determine if its an openSUSE or upstream issue, then if your happy to you can create an upstream bug report if not its the maintainers job to do it.

But how can a user know that "its not a local problem" if he doesn't know himself? By asking on the mail list...

All in all I believe that there are many people like Carlos and Felix that are smarted about openSuse than me. And as far as a specific application goes, I'm sure the developer has the definitive knowledge and has better things to do than answer my stupid questions. Better to display my ignorance to Carlos who already knows about it. It's a bit like going into one of those heigh ceiling building, you know, the sort that modern banks are based on, and thinking that by lighting a candle you can attract the attention of the Creator of The Universe, and, after insulting her by addressing her as a male, asking her to help with your trivial problems like your maths exam or how to get a date with the red-haired girl. No, if you really want to engage her interest ask something sensible, something meaningful, like how to stop the decay of the proton. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe#Nucleons_start... Like you say, take the problem to the developer .. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 13/06/18 21:44, Richard Brown wrote:

On 13 June 2018 at 13:51, Anton Aylward <opensuse@antonaylward.com> wrote:

...

On 12/06/18 06:45 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Once you are reasonably sure in this case that its not a local problem the best approach is to contact the openSUSE maintainer through bugzilla they can then determine if its an openSUSE or upstream issue, then if your happy to you can create an upstream bug report if not its the maintainers job to do it.

But how can a user know that "its not a local problem" if he doesn't know himself? By asking on the mail list...

All in all I believe that there are many people like Carlos and Felix that are smarted about openSuse than me. And as far as a specific application goes, I'm sure the developer has the definitive knowledge and has better things to do than answer my stupid questions. Better to display my ignorance to Carlos who already knows about it.

It's a bit like going into one of those heigh ceiling building, you know, the sort that modern banks are based on, and thinking that by lighting a candle you can attract the attention of the Creator of The Universe, and, after insulting her by addressing her as a male, asking her to help with your trivial problems like your maths exam or how to get a date with the red-haired girl.

No, if you really want to engage her interest ask something sensible, something meaningful, like how to stop the decay of the proton. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe#Nucleons_start...

Like you say, take the problem to the developer ..

For people seeking a more 'casual' approach than filing bugs for getting in touch with developers, I'd like to point out the following command

osc maintainer -e $package

Sometimes there maybe many maintainers listed who might mostly be responsible for the repository rather then the individual package. Generally its best to look at the bugowner, which is the person who will be assigned to any bugs that maybe opened, osc maintainer now lists the bugowner (atleast here anyway) but I can't remember if it has always you can get just the bugowner with osc bugowner -e $package -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 13/06/18 08:16 AM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 13/06/2018 à 13:51, Anton Aylward a écrit :

...

All in all I believe that there are many people like Carlos and Felix that are smarted about openSuse than me.

I'm not so sure. You are one of the people we a familiar with here :-)

ROTFLMAO! Well, if there are questions about the UNIX V6 disk drivers or scheduler, same with UNIX V7 or BSD 2.8 for the PDP-11, I might be able to dredge answers from my alzheimer-impaired memories of same. I can't handle octal now without my trusted pocket calc ... err .. smartphone. But today, I seem more able to deal with meta-issues than coding issues. it's a long time since I did production work in Perl, never mind C; I grew better at managing programmers than programming and relied more on Brooks, Weinberg and the later works of Demarco such as "Peopleware" than on the White Books or O'Reilly manuals. I became better at writing manuals than software. No question about it. People like Carlos and Felix are smarter about openSuse than me. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown composed on 2018-06-11 09:53 (UTC+0200): ...

With the exception of Per and Carlos, I can't easily name any of the regular participants of this list as active contributors to the project....

Selective recall perhaps? openSUSE mailing lists aren't the only evidence of project contribution: Reported by, bug date that is in state RESOLVED FIXED; oldest & B.O.O. # & email; forums.opensuse.org sign-up date: Christian Boltz: 2005-01-15 # 64869 suse-beta@ 2008-10-14 Per Jessen: 2005-09-04 #115227 per@ 2010-07-13 Me: 2006-01-04 #141443 mrmazda@ 2008-12-21 Carlos Robinson: 2006-04-26 #170000 carlos.e.r@ 2009-02-04 Gertjan Lettink: 2010-06-11 #613466 knurpht@ 2008-06-11 Simon Lees: 2012-08-03 #774394 simonf.lees@ 2013-02-04 Richard Brown: 2013-12-06 #854169 rbrown@ 2014-06-24 Sarah Julia Kriesch: 2014-10-31 #903514 ada.lovelace@ 2013-01-13 Ana María Martínez Gómez: none anamma06@ ? Reported bugs by, total: Christian Boltz: 1145 Per Jessen: 451 Me: 263 Carlos Robinson: 431 Gertjan Lettink: 8 Simon Lees: 36 Richard Brown: 71 Sarah Julia Kriesch: 18 Ana María Martínez Gómez: none Reported bugs by, which are in state RESOLVED FIXED: Christian Boltz: 359 Per Jessen: 190 Me: 125 Carlos Robinson: 165 Gertjan Lettink: 4 Simon Lees: 23 Richard Brown: 44 Sarah Julia Kriesch: 8 Ana María Martínez Gómez: none Reported bugs filed by, RESOLVED FIXED percentage: Christian Boltz: 31.4% Per Jessen: 42.1% Carlos Robinson: 38.2% Me: 47.5% Gertjan Lettink: 50.0% Simon Lees: 63.9% Richard Brown: 62.0% Sarah Julia Kriesch: 44.0% Ana María Martínez Gómez: NA Reported bugs by, which are in state RESOLVED DUPLICATE: Christian Boltz: 45 Per Jessen: 59 Me: 19 Carlos Robinson: 50 Gertjan Lettink: 2 Simon Lees: 2 Richard Brown: 2 Sarah Julia Kriesch: 1 Reported bugs filed by, RESOLVED DUPLICATE percentage: Christian Boltz: 3.9% Per Jessen: 13.1% Me: 7.2% Carlos Robinson: 11.6% Gertjan Lettink: 25.0% Simon Lees: 5.6% Richard Brown: 2.8% Sarah Julia Kriesch: 5.6% Apparently I allocate more of my time trying to prevent the waste of developer and QA time than do some other active bug reporters. In fact, some of the time I spend _is_ on BZ QA itself, what I can, not being a programmer, and not able to decipher crash logs. When I find what I think is could be an upstream bug, I take the time to try to reproduce in at least one other distro, and report upstream instead or in addition. And, I only test on hardware, ensuring that the observed behavior is not created by VM software. One of my often used BZ saved searches is reports created in past two days. What each participant does isn't equally visible. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-06-12 06:58, Simon Lees wrote:

On 12/06/18 12:40, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Richard Brown composed on 2018-06-11 09:53 (UTC+0200): ...

...

With the exception of Per and Carlos, I can't easily name any of the regular participants of this list as active contributors to the project....

Selective recall perhaps? openSUSE mailing lists aren't the only evidence of project contribution:

Reported by, bug date that is in state RESOLVED FIXED; oldest & B.O.O. # & email; forums.opensuse.org sign-up date: Christian Boltz: 2005-01-15 # 64869 suse-beta@ 2008-10-14 Per Jessen: 2005-09-04 #115227 per@ 2010-07-13 Me: 2006-01-04 #141443 mrmazda@ 2008-12-21 Carlos Robinson: 2006-04-26 #170000 carlos.e.r@ 2009-02-04 Gertjan Lettink: 2010-06-11 #613466 knurpht@ 2008-06-11 Simon Lees: 2012-08-03 #774394 simonf.lees@ 2013-02-04 Richard Brown: 2013-12-06 #854169 rbrown@ 2014-06-24 Sarah Julia Kriesch: 2014-10-31 #903514 ada.lovelace@ 2013-01-13 Ana María Martínez Gómez: none anamma06@ ?

Reported bugs by, total: Christian Boltz: 1145 Per Jessen: 451 Me: 263 Carlos Robinson: 431 Gertjan Lettink: 8 Simon Lees: 36 Richard Brown: 71 Sarah Julia Kriesch: 18 Ana María Martínez Gómez: none

Reported bugs by, which are in state RESOLVED FIXED: Christian Boltz: 359 Per Jessen: 190 Me: 125 Carlos Robinson: 165 Gertjan Lettink: 4 Simon Lees: 23 Richard Brown: 44 Sarah Julia Kriesch: 8 Ana María Martínez Gómez: none

Reported bugs filed by, RESOLVED FIXED percentage: Christian Boltz: 31.4% Per Jessen: 42.1% Carlos Robinson: 38.2% Me: 47.5% Gertjan Lettink: 50.0% Simon Lees: 63.9% Richard Brown: 62.0% Sarah Julia Kriesch: 44.0% Ana María Martínez Gómez: NA

Reported bugs by, which are in state RESOLVED DUPLICATE: Christian Boltz: 45 Per Jessen: 59 Me: 19 Carlos Robinson: 50 Gertjan Lettink: 2 Simon Lees: 2 Richard Brown: 2 Sarah Julia Kriesch: 1

Reported bugs filed by, RESOLVED DUPLICATE percentage: Christian Boltz: 3.9% Per Jessen: 13.1% Me: 7.2% Carlos Robinson: 11.6% Gertjan Lettink: 25.0% Simon Lees: 5.6% Richard Brown: 2.8% Sarah Julia Kriesch: 5.6%

Apparently I allocate more of my time trying to prevent the waste of developer and QA time than do some other active bug reporters. In fact, some of the time I spend _is_ on BZ QA itself, what I can, not being a programmer, and not able to decipher crash logs. When I find what I think is could be an upstream bug, I take the time to try to reproduce in at least one other distro, and report upstream instead or in addition. And, I only test on hardware, ensuring that the observed behavior is not created by VM software. One of my often used BZ saved searches is reports created in past two days. What each participant does isn't equally visible.

I'm not going to bother entering into any of the debate here but as the main team Ana contributes too does pretty much everything on github looking through the openSUSE and obs projects bug trackers will probably give you much more accurate results.

It proves that Felix is as "active contributor" as me. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE, Leap 15.0 x86_64 (ssd-test)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

...

Richard Brown composed on 2018-06-11 09:53 (UTC+0200): ...

...

With the exception of Per and Carlos, I can't easily name any of the regular participants of this list as active contributors to the project....

Selective recall perhaps? openSUSE mailing lists aren't the only evidence of project contribution:

Reported by, bug date that is in state RESOLVED FIXED; oldest & B.O.O. # & email; forums.opensuse.org sign-up date:

Christian Boltz: 2005-01-15 # 64869 suse-beta@ 2008-10-14 Per Jessen: 2005-09-04 #115227 per@ 2010-07-13 Me: 2006-01-04 #141443 mrmazda@ 2008-12-21 Carlos Robinson: 2006-04-26 #170000 carlos.e.r@ 2009-02-04

---- L A Walsh 2007-02-12 #244788 suse@t.l.o 2003-12-28 21:48:59 (-800):

To: suse-linux-e-subscribe@lists.suse.com subscribe suse-linux-e

^^^ First involved w/suse before O.S. existed - subscription to email list in 2003(Q4)...from my outgoing email Record

I think I had some bugs in the suse system, but dunno if I can even access it.

I didn't reproduce all the data from the lists, but did preserve order of those w/higher numbers than me.

...

Reported bugs by, total: Christian Boltz: 1145 Per Jessen: 451 Felix: 263 Carlos Robinson: 431 Richard Brown: 71

---- L A Walsh 53

...

Reported bugs by, which are in state RESOLVED FIXED: Christian Boltz: 359 Per Jessen: 190 Felix: 125 Carlos Robinson: 165 Richard Brown: 44 Simon Lees: 23

L A Walsh 15

...

Reported bugs filed by, RESOLVED FIXED percentage: Christian Boltz: 31.4% Per Jessen: 42.1% Carlos Robinson: 38.2% Felix: 47.5% Gertjan Lettink: 50.0% Simon Lees: 63.9% Richard Brown: 62.0% Sarah Julia Kriesch: 44.0%

L A Walsh 28.3%

...

Reported bugs by, which are in state RESOLVED DUPLICATE: Christian Boltz: 45 Per Jessen: 59 Felix: 19 Carlos Robinson: 50

LA Walsh: 5

...

Reported bugs filed by, RESOLVED DUPLICATE percentage: Christian Boltz: 3.9% Per Jessen: 13.1% Felix: 7.2% Carlos Robinson: 11.6% Gertjan Lettink: 25.0% Simon Lees: 5.6% Richard Brown: 2.8% Sarah Julia Kriesch: 5.6%

L A Walsh 9.4%

&& 20(38%) WONTFIX, 6(11.3%) INVALID, 1(1.8%) WORKFORME

Latest resolved-fixed: 2015-06-12 After that date, 1 is still open "In_Progress" 8 were closed as "RESOLVED:WONTFIX" w/1 in 2015, & 6 in 2018

As I mentioned...I did report bugs, but it became pointless as I was told my use-cases were not supported.

I've been on the mailing lists for suse since 2003 and using it since 2001 on my home server. And what about me and the other forums team members that send people over to bugzilla ? Incl. your own advice to people to do so? How are we gonna count

Op dinsdag 12 juni 2018 23:31:52 CEST schreef L A Walsh: those ? I know that I've done so hundreds of times, yet these bugs are not registerd on my name/account? Same goes for the others in the so called statistics. Mind this is not to you personally, but to the others participating in the thread as well. Nobody can expect any of us reporting these bugs ourselves, specially if we cannot reproduce them. Another thing: bugs/issues reported on github / progress.o.o are in the equasion as well. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

L A Walsh composed on 2018-06-12 16:00 (UTC-0700):

p.s. -- though...people who don't know how to trim responses should have their points docked! ;-)

s/people who don't know how to trim/people who don't trim/ -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/06/18 09:30 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Reproducibility is of no import to the filing of unique reports,

ROTFLMAO! If that is the metric then perhaps I should become #1 on your list by filing lots of unique and irreproducible bugs, irreproducible because they are ridiculous and nonsensical, and all get marked immediately WONTFIX. And that for good reason. But I'd become a #1 filer! https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=journal+of+irreproducible+results https://www.improbable.com/ig/2018/ -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote:

And what about me and the other forums team members that send people over to bugzilla ? Incl. your own advice to people to do so? How are we gonna count those ?

That can surely be pulled from bugzilla - number of reports by account?

I know that I've done so hundreds of times, yet these bugs are not registerd on my name/account?

As they shouldn't be. Suggesting someone write a report is just friendly advice, you don't get any points :-) The real effort is in writing the report, doing the follow-up, providing diagnostics etc.

Another thing: bugs/issues reported on github / progress.o.o are in the equasion as well.

Absolutely, they can't be difficult to count? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.8°C) member, openSUE Heroes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op woensdag 13 juni 2018 18:57:01 CEST schreef Knurpht @ openSUSE:

Op woensdag 13 juni 2018 18:14:47 CEST schreef Per Jessen:

...

Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote:

...

And what about me and the other forums team members that send people over to bugzilla ? Incl. your own advice to people to do so? How are we gonna count those ?

That can surely be pulled from bugzilla - number of reports by account?

No, you cannot pull things from bugzilla that aren't registered there.

...

...

I know that I've done so hundreds of times, yet these bugs are not registerd on my name/account?

As they shouldn't be. Suggesting someone write a report is just friendly advice, you don't get any points :-) The real effort is in writing the report, doing the follow-up, providing diagnostics etc.

Yup, and we're actively helping people to discover whether they hit a bug, and fiercely encouraging them to write a bugreport, even actively help them to do so. And nobody can count that, without manually analyzing forums threads.

In quite some cases people report back in the forums that they reported a bug in bugzilla. Mostly this is about things we've tried to reproduce, but couldn't after checking other possibilities.

...

...

Another thing: bugs/issues reported on github / progress.o.o are in the equasion as well.

OK

...

Absolutely, they can't be difficult to count?

Per, please read the above. It's bloody difficult to count contributions to bugreports made outside of bugzilla, unless f.e. the forums team members would write some "We sent the user here" comments to the bug involved. FWIW: references to 'bugzilla.opensuse.org' hits the max of 300 search results and only gets back to end of 2017. I randomly opened a couple and they contained advice to report and return of BOO# .... I'm definitely not going to confirm these to get proper counts.

-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote:

Op woensdag 13 juni 2018 18:14:47 CEST schreef Per Jessen:

...

Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote:

...

And what about me and the other forums team members that send people over to bugzilla ? Incl. your own advice to people to do so? How are we gonna count those ?

That can surely be pulled from bugzilla - number of reports by account?

No, you cannot pull things from bugzilla that aren't registered there.

But - to write a report, you have to be registered? I must be missing something.

...

...

I know that I've done so hundreds of times, yet these bugs are not registerd on my name/account?

As they shouldn't be. Suggesting someone write a report is just friendly advice, you don't get any points :-) The real effort is in writing the report, doing the follow-up, providing diagnostics etc.

Yup, and we're actively helping people to discover whether they hit a bug, and fiercely encouraging them to write a bugreport, even actively help them to do so. And nobody can count that, without manually analyzing forums threads.

Well, same here on the list.

...

...

Another thing: bugs/issues reported on github / progress.o.o are in the equasion as well.

OK

...

Absolutely, they can't be difficult to count?

Per, please read the above. It's bloody difficult to count contributions to bugreports made outside of bugzilla, unless f.e. the forums team members would write some "We sent the user here" comments to the bug involved.

At least for http://progress.o.o it's easy. I don't know about github, but I imagine I can go and search for reports created by myself? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.0°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote:

...

Op woensdag 13 juni 2018 18:14:47 CEST schreef Per Jessen:

...

Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote:

...

And what about me and the other forums team members that send people over to bugzilla ? Incl. your own advice to people to do so? How are we gonna count those ?

That can surely be pulled from bugzilla - number of reports by account?

No, you cannot pull things from bugzilla that aren't registered there.

But - to write a report, you have to be registered? I must be missing something.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. I didn't realise you wanted to count _suggestions_ to write a report. For me they don't count, but that's only my opinion. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Op woensdag 13 juni 2018 20:24:24 CEST schreef Felix Miata:

Knurpht @ openSUSE composed on 2018-06-13 16:57 (UTC+0200):

...

Per Jessen composed:

...

Suggesting someone write a report is just friendly advice, you don't get any points :-) The real effort is in writing the report, doing the follow-up, providing diagnostics etc.

Yup, and we're actively helping people to discover whether they hit a bug, and fiercely encouraging them to write a bugreport, even actively help them to do so. And nobody can count that, without manually analyzing forums threads. IMO, https://forums.opensuse.org/ and/or https://lists.opensuse.org/ is a searchable, countable, useful part of comment 0 of every good report that follows a discussion either place. If I read this correctly we agree on this one, Felix. :).

-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, Am Dienstag, 12. Juni 2018, 05:10:52 CEST schrieb Felix Miata:

Richard Brown composed on 2018-06-11 09:53 (UTC+0200): ...

...

With the exception of Per and Carlos, I can't easily name any of the regular participants of this list as active contributors to the project....

Selective recall perhaps? openSUSE mailing lists aren't the only evidence of project contribution:

Reported bugs by, total: Christian Boltz: 1145

Correct [1]

Reported bugs by, which are in state RESOLVED FIXED: Christian Boltz: 359

I'm afraid your statistics is wrong - bugzilla tells me that 749 of my bugs are FIXED (see https://bit.ly/2JIFq2S [2]). This also means the percentage is completely wrong:

Reported bugs filed by, RESOLVED FIXED percentage: Christian Boltz: 31.4%

With the correct number of bugs (749 out of 1145), it's 65.4% :-) I have no idea why you only found 359 (especially because the total number of 1145 is correct) - maybe you did not include VERIFIED FIXED and CLOSED FIXED in your search? Whatever happened, please re-do your statistics for everybody with the correct search settings. BTW1: For comparison: if you do bugzilla statistics for *all* bugreporters, then you'll see that 51322 out of 106267 bugs (48,3%) are marked as FIXED. BTW2: In case you wonder why I reported less bugs in the last ~2 years: OBS is totally ruining my bugzilla statistics - for simple bugs I often send a SR instead of writing a bugreport ;-)

Apparently I allocate more of my time trying to prevent the waste of developer and QA time than do some other active bug reporters. In fact, some of the time I spend _is_ on BZ QA itself, what I can, not being a programmer, and not able to decipher crash logs. When I find what I think is could be an upstream bug, I take the time to try to reproduce in at least one other distro, and report upstream instead or in addition.

:-) (Reminds me to my zoo of > 20 bugtracker accounts for various upstream projects...)

What each participant does isn't equally visible.

I couldn't agree more on this - we have enough places to "hide" contributions ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz PS: since you mentioned (in another mail) that you subscribed to this mailinglist in 2003 - I can beat this by two years ;-) The list archive says I joined the german mailinglist in 2001: https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-de/2001-08/author3.html [1] I also reported about 150 bugs that are non-public, most of them for SUSE Linux 9.x (back then, it was a closed beta) and bugzilla itsself - but let's ignore these bugs for now and stay with the publicly visible bugs. (Of course, the number of FIXED bugs I mention in the next paragraph is about public bugs.) [2] original link: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/report.cgi?x_axis_field=resolution&y_axis_field=product&z_axis_field=&query_format=report-table&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=allwords&keywords=&emailassigned_to1=1&emailreporter1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailreporter2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=suse-beta%40cboltz.de&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&format=table&action=wrap&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0= -- Wozu überhaupt ein Script? Das kann man auch direkt aufrufen. Immer dieser Rationalisierungswahn. Demnächst verlangen einige Gurus noch, dass direkt in Binärcode geschrieben wird... [Sandy Drobic in suse-linux] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 14/06/18 19:51, Carlos E. R. wrote:

soon I bought the official 6.2 which came with a wonderful book in paper.

 - great book : see it on book-shelf .....  regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 13/06/18 03:42 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

I don't understand what problem this entire exercise is aimed at solving. It's' quite bewildering. "officialness" just adds to the confusion.

- There's a lot that annoys me.There are the people who think and give voice to their feelings that if you don't contribute code you aren't contributing at all. - We've just addressed the people who think that if you don't file bugs you aren't contributing. Meanwhile, there are people who translate, who correct the grammar in man pages or clarify them. There are the people who run their own blogs that have, or contribute to other "How-To" articles. Sidebar: No matter how much the rsync man page gets revised, many of us would be lost without the examples in the How-To articles. The man page for rsync is ... well, the only term I can think of is "overwhelming". Sidebar: At school I was a bit of a sports klutz. But I remember at the high jump, one of the coaches made the point: "The also serve who stand and put the bar back up". There are many ways to contribute: Asking questions, asking for examples: those are contributions as well. If no-one ever asked, why would anyone give an answer? And giving an answer on the list means a lot more people see it than if it was a page buried deeper on the web site that it takes google to find and has maybe one or two hits a year. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org

On 13/06/18 11:27 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

Just my 2 cents, ... and only heard of 386's like some here might feel about the model-T (car).

There was nothing wrong with the Model-T. It was the PC chassis of its day, very adaptable, very resilient. Easy to repair, easy to extend and modify, easy to build. It attracted a lot of hackers in the old, positive sense of the word, what we now sometimes term 'makers'.

Maybe he's trying to be more inviting for a younger generation -- something that many greybeards are downright insensitive about, if not hostile. 

Yes we are hostile to people who who want to run Linux on their cell phones and tablets, and do the twitter, facebook, IM thing while walking down the street, crossing the road, driving cars and trucks and trains.

I see more than one old project that is only being open and run by 'grey-beards', who are happy to run the project into the dust rather than accept anything remotely like change. 

damn right we do. Because it's not simply about change per change. its about the value of that principles of Linux that date back to UNIX, the 'pipes and filters', the 'software tools like cat and grep and sed and and more. It's about SQL databases being still relevant. Its about the world not being a GUI. That MS-Windows thinking. <quote src="https://www.zdnet.com/article/why-many-mcses-wont-learn-linux/"> The Windows worldview cultivates the expectation that learning to use an OS means memorizing specific command sequences and fill-ins - and when that attitude meets the Unix expectation that sysadmins should understand basic principles first and then apply them, chaos and frustration usually follow. ... It's the divide between training and education: the difference between rote learning and the application of theory to practice. Basically, to learn Unix you learn to understand and apply a small set of key ideas and achieve expertise by expanding both the set of ideas and your ability to apply them - but you learn Windows by working with the functionality available in a specific release. </quote>

I'm just guessing on all this, but I do see it as a problem -- and not just for opensuse, as newer generations are steered by corporate interests *away* from a personal computer and are replacing them by 'consumer-only' devices from walled gardens.

Yes, that's what has happened in other areas like automobiles. Compared to the Model-T, what moves off the showroom floor these days you can't to much with. Change the tyres, hang some fuzzy dice. A lot of what used to be 3rd party add-ons are not built in: heated steering wheels so no need for furry steering wheel covers; heated seats ditto; delay wipers ... Hey. didn't Microsoft incorporate many of the things like The Norton Tools (such as the disk compressor)(and not as flexible or versatile)?

Some of my concerns have been about seeing opensuse turning toward the infrastructure for a similar business model -- eventually offering a suse-app store, for locked-down open-suse machines that are looked at as appliances by their users.

Scary stuff. So much of the VM standards, the Docker standards were about portability. And, oh, right, we had Java, before oracle locked that up. Lots of useful applications for mind-mapping. project management, UML modelling and more were written in the Java "write once run anywhere". Perhaps the greatest proof that what Android runs isn't Java is that I can't run those Java application on it as I can on my PC. Meanwhile ... - ThinkFree Office - XMind - Freeplane - NASA World Wind - Software tools like Eclipse and Netbeans

Just like few people tinker under the hood of their car anymore since most of its operations have been sealed off from public casual inspection and modification, so seems to be going the personal/desktop computer.

The move to the cloud is a way to capture the "top end" of the need for an inhouse computing department, while smart phones and devices are aimed at capturing the lower end (the middle has mostly disappeared).

I'm not sure, Richard,  even if all the lists were to change to your heart's desire, how much difference it would make in the long run... It's possible it would slow the shrinking audience, but I'm not sure it would stop it.

Anyway, this is just a WAG on my part and I could be entirely off-base. So take it with a few grains of salt, but thought I'd throw it out..

I'm glad you did! I don't often agree with you, but I'm always gad to hear your opinion and read your posts. You seem to realise that world is a multi-colour complex web of interests and not the simplified two-tone anti-intellectual disease that seems to be spreading in so many areas of our society. It's a case of Render unto the X that which is the Xs and to the Y that which is the Ys ... where X and Y are large, irreducible and not completely orthogonal sets. As I've mentioned, corporations need to standardize and minimise for reasons such as "production efficiency", "cost savings" and in many cases things like reducing the amount of warehouse space needed to store the product. They get hung up on things like 'efficiency of scale'. The strength of FOSS has always been that the ability to fork, to pursue other paths to differing goals. When we loose that we've definitely lost. It's not that us 'greybeards' (well mine is snowy white actually, the shock of my parents dying unexpectedly) are resisting change per se. It's that the change in values, as you say,

about seeing opensuse turning toward the infrastructure for a similar business model -- eventually offering a suse-app store, for locked-down open-suse machines that are looked at as appliances by their users.

If I want an appliance I'll buy a Chromebook. -- A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org